Re: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

[Ben Young]

The ATF has not stated anything yet. The official report has not been
released, and this article is 90% speculation.



Benjamin Young

On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 8:22 PM,  wrote:

> In other words, if all the ATF is saying is that the fire started outside
> on the patio then it did, and the Federal Prosecutors are moving on to
> other cases.
>
> If the toilets flushed the water supply for this hazard would have been
> enough to smash that fire-- if it had started inside.
>
> Maybe it burned up through the eaves, got above the attic sprinklers,
> spread exponentially, then descended like dark clouds from hell over a
> large area activating sprinklers far from the origin and that is why the
> survivors were wet coming out.
> So all the so-called typos ie 363 vs 663 gpm is MOOT-- if it stated outide
> it's like arson -- our control mode designs can't handle it.
>
> Brad.
>
> Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com:
>
> Quoting David Blackwell :
>>
>> Yes, it had a sprinkler system, but also multiple fatalities...
>>>
>>> "In deadly fire at West Chester nursing home, what went wrong?"
>>>  Updated: March 2, 2018 — 4:00 PM EST
>>> http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/west-chester-nurs
>>> ing-home-fire-barclay-friends-sprinkler-deaths-pennsylvania-
>>> 20180302.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>>
>>> David Blackwell
>>>
>>
>> thanks David.
>>>
>> My heart goes out to all involved.
>> Statistics say it was a closed valve.
>> But what struck me is that hazard classifications for the purpose of
>> design, installation and WATER SUPPLY are based on the building contents.
>> This fire started outside.
>>
>> Brad.
>>
>> David Blackwell, P.E.
>>> Chief Engineer
>>> (803)896-9833
>>>
>>> Office of State Fire Marshal
>>> 141 Monticello Trail | Columbia, SC 29203
>>> http://statefire.llr.sc.gov/
>>> (803)896-9800
>>>
>>> "Our firefighting starts with plan review..."
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-
>>> firesprinkler.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-
>> firesprinkler.org
>>
>
>
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-
> firesprinkler.org
>
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

[Ben Young]

The report has not been issued yet. This article is highly speculative at
best.


Benjamin Young

On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Prahl, Craig/GVL 
wrote:

> The report said the fire started outside on a patio.  Was there no dry
> sprinkler on the patio? Apparently not.
>
> If the fire started outside and involved exterior siding, spreading along
> the outside of the building, the growth and intensity at some point would
> breach the building envelope and even if the sprinklers were operational, a
> 13R system would have probably been overwhelmed.
>
> When were the sprinkler systems last inspected and what was the actual
> municipal water supply capable of providing at the time of the fire versus
> when the system designed?
>
> And no mention of whether or not there were smoke detectors?
>
> So sad.
>
>
>
> Craig L. Prahl
> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
> Direct - 864.920.7540
> Fax - 864.920.7129
> Direct Extension  77540
> CH2M is now Jacobs.
> 200 Verdae Blvd.
> Greenville, SC  29607
> craig.pr...@ch2m.com
> http://www.jacobs.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org] On Behalf Of bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 10:26 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Re: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities [EXTERNAL]
>
> 'what-was-wanting'
> the challenge for the 'up-and-coming'
> i love you scot
>
> Quoting "å... " :
>
> > Consider the waterflow test really was 90 psig static, 20 psig
> > residual and
> > 363 gpm.
> > If the fire started outside, the elevation pressure loss to operating
> > sprinklers is minimal (~ 4.5 psig);   therefore enough water pressure
> > remains to operate a handful of sprinklers.
> > And a handful of sprinklers is ordinarily enough to control a fire; if
> > the fire started inside...
> >
> >
> > 1.  Combustible exterior though, could have contributed to flame spread.
> > 2. If the water department was motivated to upgrade their water
> > supply, then there probably was something seriously lacking in their
> > product delivery.
> > If we can determine if it was the fire pump operator (engineer) whom
> > declared "...there is no water at the scene!" this points a finger at
> > the underground water supply.
> > 3. The control valve to the personal care section of the facility
> > could have been off, but this facility had multiple risers, each with
> > its own control valve; even if the personal care system control valve
> > was closed, other CVs to other sprinkler systems should have been open
> > and capable of delivering water, which again points to lack of municipal
> water supply.
> > 4. If the control valve to the BFP was closed, then all sprinkler
> > systems would not be delivering water via the city pressurized
> > underground pipes, but the FDC should still have been able to deliver
> > water to the individual sprinkler systems as it should be connected
> > downstream of the backflow preventer.  So if water from the FDC was
> > not reaching the systems, this again implicates the municipal water
> > system,
> >
> > 5. Was there a water leak in the municipal supply that prompted the
> > municipal water department to restrict some valves?
> > 6. Was the sprinkler system to the personal care wing a dry-pipe
> > system, and impaired due to corrosion?
> >
> > Usually it takes more than one system (items 1 through 6) to fail in
> > order to create a significant tragedy.
> >
> > It is sad to learn of this tragedy.  It is hoped that once
> > what-was-wanting with these fire suppression systems is identified,
> > these will not be soon repeated.
> >
> > ​Scot Deal
> > Excelsior Risk and Fire Engineering
> > gsm:  +420 606 981 266 <+420%20606%20981%20266>   GMT + 1​
> > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was
> > scrubbed...
> > URL:
> > <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl
> > er.org/attachments/20180313/074524a7/attachment.html>
> > ___
> > Sprinklerforum mailing list
> > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl
> > er.org
>
>
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
> 

RE: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

[Prahl, Craig/GVL]

The report said the fire started outside on a patio.  Was there no dry 
sprinkler on the patio? Apparently not.

If the fire started outside and involved exterior siding, spreading along the 
outside of the building, the growth and intensity at some point would breach 
the building envelope and even if the sprinklers were operational, a 13R system 
would have probably been overwhelmed.

When were the sprinkler systems last inspected and what was the actual 
municipal water supply capable of providing at the time of the fire versus when 
the system designed?

And no mention of whether or not there were smoke detectors?

So sad.
  


Craig L. Prahl 
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
Direct Extension  77540
CH2M is now Jacobs.
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.jacobs.com

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 10:26 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities [EXTERNAL]

'what-was-wanting'
the challenge for the 'up-and-coming'
i love you scot

Quoting "å... " :

> Consider the waterflow test really was 90 psig static, 20 psig 
> residual and
> 363 gpm.
> If the fire started outside, the elevation pressure loss to operating
> sprinklers is minimal (~ 4.5 psig);   therefore enough water pressure
> remains to operate a handful of sprinklers.
> And a handful of sprinklers is ordinarily enough to control a fire; if 
> the fire started inside...
>
>
> 1.  Combustible exterior though, could have contributed to flame spread.
> 2. If the water department was motivated to upgrade their water 
> supply, then there probably was something seriously lacking in their 
> product delivery.
> If we can determine if it was the fire pump operator (engineer) whom 
> declared "...there is no water at the scene!" this points a finger at 
> the underground water supply.
> 3. The control valve to the personal care section of the facility 
> could have been off, but this facility had multiple risers, each with 
> its own control valve; even if the personal care system control valve 
> was closed, other CVs to other sprinkler systems should have been open 
> and capable of delivering water, which again points to lack of municipal 
> water supply.
> 4. If the control valve to the BFP was closed, then all sprinkler 
> systems would not be delivering water via the city pressurized 
> underground pipes, but the FDC should still have been able to deliver 
> water to the individual sprinkler systems as it should be connected 
> downstream of the backflow preventer.  So if water from the FDC was 
> not reaching the systems, this again implicates the municipal water 
> system,
>
> 5. Was there a water leak in the municipal supply that prompted the 
> municipal water department to restrict some valves?
> 6. Was the sprinkler system to the personal care wing a dry-pipe 
> system, and impaired due to corrosion?
>
> Usually it takes more than one system (items 1 through 6) to fail in 
> order to create a significant tragedy.
>
> It is sad to learn of this tragedy.  It is hoped that once 
> what-was-wanting with these fire suppression systems is identified, 
> these will not be soon repeated.
>
> ​Scot Deal
> Excelsior Risk and Fire Engineering
> gsm:  +420 606 981 266 <+420%20606%20981%20266>   GMT + 1​
> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was 
> scrubbed...
> URL:  
> <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl
> er.org/attachments/20180313/074524a7/attachment.html>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl
> er.org



___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

[bcasterline]

'what-was-wanting'
the challenge for the 'up-and-coming'
i love you scot

Quoting "å... " :


Consider the waterflow test really was 90 psig static, 20 psig residual and
363 gpm.
If the fire started outside, the elevation pressure loss to operating
sprinklers is minimal (~ 4.5 psig);   therefore enough water pressure
remains to operate a handful of sprinklers.
And a handful of sprinklers is ordinarily enough to control a fire; if the
fire started inside...


1.  Combustible exterior though, could have contributed to flame spread.
2. If the water department was motivated to upgrade their water supply,
then there probably was something seriously lacking in their product
delivery.
If we can determine if it was the fire pump operator (engineer) whom
declared "...there is no water at the scene!" this points a finger at the
underground water supply.
3. The control valve to the personal care section of the facility could
have been off, but this facility had multiple risers, each with its own
control valve; even if the personal care system control valve was closed,
other CVs to other sprinkler systems should have been open and capable of
delivering water, which again points to lack of municipal water supply.
4. If the control valve to the BFP was closed, then all sprinkler systems
would not be delivering water via the city pressurized underground pipes,
but the FDC should still have been able to deliver water to the individual
sprinkler systems as it should be connected downstream of the backflow
preventer.  So if water from the FDC was not reaching the systems, this
again implicates the municipal water system,

5. Was there a water leak in the municipal supply that prompted the
municipal water department to restrict some valves?
6. Was the sprinkler system to the personal care wing a dry-pipe system,
and impaired due to corrosion?

Usually it takes more than one system (items 1 through 6) to fail in order
to create a significant tragedy.

It is sad to learn of this tragedy.  It is hoped that once what-was-wanting
with these fire suppression systems is identified, these will not be soon
repeated.

​Scot Deal
Excelsior Risk and Fire Engineering
gsm:  +420 606 981 266 <+420%20606%20981%20266>   GMT + 1​
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:  


___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org




___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

[bcasterline]

In other words, if all the ATF is saying is that the fire started  
outside on the patio then it did, and the Federal Prosecutors are  
moving on to other cases.


If the toilets flushed the water supply for this hazard would have  
been enough to smash that fire-- if it had started inside.


Maybe it burned up through the eaves, got above the attic sprinklers,  
spread exponentially, then descended like dark clouds from hell over a  
large area activating sprinklers far from the origin and that is why  
the survivors were wet coming out.
So all the so-called typos ie 363 vs 663 gpm is MOOT-- if it stated  
outide it's like arson -- our control mode designs can't handle it.


Brad.
Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com:


Quoting David Blackwell :


Yes, it had a sprinkler system, but also multiple fatalities...

"In deadly fire at West Chester nursing home, what went wrong?"
 Updated: March 2, 2018 — 4:00 PM EST
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/west-chester-nursing-home-fire-barclay-friends-sprinkler-deaths-pennsylvania-20180302.html



Respectfully,

David Blackwell



thanks David.

My heart goes out to all involved.
Statistics say it was a closed valve.
But what struck me is that hazard classifications for the purpose of  
design, installation and WATER SUPPLY are based on the building  
contents. This fire started outside.


Brad.


David Blackwell, P.E.
Chief Engineer
(803)896-9833

Office of State Fire Marshal
141 Monticello Trail | Columbia, SC 29203
http://statefire.llr.sc.gov/
(803)896-9800

"Our firefighting starts with plan review..."


___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org




___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org




___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

[tcfire]

It is tough to say but my gut feeling is that the main gate valve was 
closed...based on the provided photo.


Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S7.
 Original message From: David Blackwell 
 Date: 3/12/18  4:35 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: PA nursing home fire with 
multiple fatalities 
Yes, it had a sprinkler system, but also multiple fatalities...

"In deadly fire at West Chester nursing home, what went wrong?"
  Updated: March 2, 2018 — 4:00 PM EST
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/west-chester-nursing-home-fire-barclay-friends-sprinkler-deaths-pennsylvania-20180302.html



Respectfully,

David Blackwell 

David Blackwell, P.E.
Chief Engineer
(803)896-9833

Office of State Fire Marshal
141 Monticello Trail | Columbia, SC 29203
http://statefire.llr.sc.gov/
(803)896-9800

"Our firefighting starts with plan review..."


___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

[bcasterline]

Quoting David Blackwell :


Yes, it had a sprinkler system, but also multiple fatalities...

"In deadly fire at West Chester nursing home, what went wrong?"
  Updated: March 2, 2018 — 4:00 PM EST
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/west-chester-nursing-home-fire-barclay-friends-sprinkler-deaths-pennsylvania-20180302.html



Respectfully,

David Blackwell



thanks David.

My heart goes out to all involved.
Statistics say it was a closed valve.
But what struck me is that hazard classifications for the purpose of  
design, installation and WATER SUPPLY are based on the building  
contents. This fire started outside.


Brad.


David Blackwell, P.E.
Chief Engineer
(803)896-9833

Office of State Fire Marshal
141 Monticello Trail | Columbia, SC 29203
http://statefire.llr.sc.gov/
(803)896-9800

"Our firefighting starts with plan review..."


___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org




___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

[Jim Davidson]

John,

That is the most important question that needs to be answered is "Who closed 
the valve and when was the sprinkler control valve shut?" (before, during or 
after the fire)

Once the who and when the valve was shut question is answered then all of the 
players will get to tell their story under oath in depositions or in court.

The fire fighters did not have enough water in the municipal water distribution 
system in the area of the fire to even operate small hose streams, the radio 
transmission indicated multiple engine companies having trouble obtaining water 
from the municipal water distribution system. 

Have a fire safe day!

Jim 
 

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Paulsen
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 5:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

David:

That is a good article written by someone who is obviously getting a crash 
course in suppression system design. The lawyers are going to have a field day 
with this one! There will be more than a few lawyers in THAT courtroom. 
Everybody, including the designer, installing contractor as well as the testing 
and servicing organization, are going to have to answer some tough questions. 
No matter what the water supply was that served the sprinkler system, why the 
heck didn't the augmented supply from the FDC and pumper truck do a better job 
of controlling the fire?! 

I don't like the picture of the cover off the tamper switch either. It makes it 
look like the control valve was closed pre-fire.

Prayers to the family of the deceased. We all work every day to try and make 
sure this type of failure doesn't happen! 

Very disturbing.

John Paulsen – SET
Crown Fire System Design
6282 Seeds Rd.
Grove City, OH 43123
P – 614-782-2438
F – 614-782-2374
C – 614-348-8206




-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of David Blackwell
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 4:35 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

Yes, it had a sprinkler system, but also multiple fatalities...

"In deadly fire at West Chester nursing home, what went wrong?"
  Updated: March 2, 2018 — 4:00 PM EST
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/west-chester-nursing-home-fire-barclay-friends-sprinkler-deaths-pennsylvania-20180302.html



Respectfully,

David Blackwell 

David Blackwell, P.E.
Chief Engineer
(803)896-9833

Office of State Fire Marshal
141 Monticello Trail | Columbia, SC 29203 http://statefire.llr.sc.gov/
(803)896-9800

"Our firefighting starts with plan review..."


___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

[John Paulsen]

David:

That is a good article written by someone who is obviously getting a crash 
course in suppression system design. The lawyers are going to have a field day 
with this one! There will be more than a few lawyers in THAT courtroom. 
Everybody, including the designer, installing contractor as well as the testing 
and servicing organization, are going to have to answer some tough questions. 
No matter what the water supply was that served the sprinkler system, why the 
heck didn't the augmented supply from the FDC and pumper truck do a better job 
of controlling the fire?! 

I don't like the picture of the cover off the tamper switch either. It makes it 
look like the control valve was closed pre-fire.

Prayers to the family of the deceased. We all work every day to try and make 
sure this type of failure doesn't happen! 

Very disturbing.

John Paulsen – SET
Crown Fire System Design
6282 Seeds Rd.
Grove City, OH 43123
P – 614-782-2438
F – 614-782-2374
C – 614-348-8206




-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of David Blackwell
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 4:35 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: PA nursing home fire with multiple fatalities

Yes, it had a sprinkler system, but also multiple fatalities...

"In deadly fire at West Chester nursing home, what went wrong?"
  Updated: March 2, 2018 — 4:00 PM EST
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/west-chester-nursing-home-fire-barclay-friends-sprinkler-deaths-pennsylvania-20180302.html



Respectfully,

David Blackwell 

David Blackwell, P.E.
Chief Engineer
(803)896-9833

Office of State Fire Marshal
141 Monticello Trail | Columbia, SC 29203 http://statefire.llr.sc.gov/
(803)896-9800

"Our firefighting starts with plan review..."


___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org