[freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-10 Thread MyTwoCents 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 8 May 2008, "Evan Daniel"  wrote:

{huge snip]

>You might want to upgrade to the latest version of FMS (0.2.14).  I
>found a rather relevant bug, which SomeDude has fixed:  identities
>were publishing captchas even when they weren't publishing trust
>lists.  If you solved one of their captchas, you would be announced to
>them, but not to anyone else.  Given the fraction of identities
>publishing trust lists (low), this means that your odds of actually
>getting announced are small, at best.  0.2.14 will not download
>captchas from identities not publishing trust lists, and won't publish
>them if you're not publishing one.

Ok, I'll have a go at the new version. That definitely sounds like a major
improvement.  I wonder why there's such a low fraction publishing trust
lists?

>Yes, the captchas are automatically generated on demand; the code is
>in simplecaptcha.cpp.  If there was a stock database it wouldn't work,
>as a spammer could just harvest the whole database.
>
>I'm not going to continue my brief attempt to make a different captcha
>system (though I'll keep running my easier version of the same style
>captcha).  There are many far more competent people out there working
>on the problem, and the current state of the art appears to be that
>the spammers are winning.  There have been some interesting proposals
>recently, eg:
>http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080423-researchers-stay-step-ahead-
>of-bots-with-image-based-captcha.html

I read that article a few days ago.  I'd absoultely hate to see one of
those on a normal internet site but it *might* be useful for something like
FMS.

>My current belief is that captchas are doomed, and some alternate
>system is needed.  I have no clue what it is; currently, I think
>hashcash might be the best option, as bad as it is.  For now, out of

Hashcash IMO, isn't so bad a solution.  I use hashcash tokens whenever I
email through the panta remailer or the panta mail2news gateway and it's
not a problem at all.

I wouldn't mind in the least generating say, a 34 bit hashcash token and
using that to get introduced.  According to the token generator I'm using"
http://www.panta-rhei.eu.org/downloads/Hashcash/ a 34 bit token would take
me about 1.5 - 3.5 hours to generate.  I would consider exchanging the
visual captchas for hashcash a very worthwhile trade, even at over 7 hours
each to mint 36 bit tokens.

>band introductions are a good thing, though obviously not a complete
>solution -- though I can certainly sympathize with your stubbornness
>:)

The out of band thing also applies to 'proper' darknet ref exchanges.  The
problem is that I know *one* person on the planet that runs freenet and
it's an 0.5 node.  Given the nature of darknet I wouldn't want to trade
darknet refs with somebody I didn't know and have reason to trust anymore
than I'd want to do it for FMS intros.


- -- 
My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
SSK at TEx6TiaPeszpV4AFw3ToutDb49EPAgM/mytwocents/63//m2ckey.html
(*NOTE* you must be running freenet 0.5 for this link to be usefull)
and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
Frost: MyTwoCents at Z+59LNK9NhMvxewYggENU4Ww50s On the 0.5 Freenet board

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: N/A

iQA/AwUBSCUoop5/ZUtfDwnNEQKuuwCdHgg65rjvm8yiuWPn1SUrCVBxskQAnj/c
x7PRGuKPo0yvKTkbs1bySYn/
=c7K1
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: [freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-09 Thread MyTwoCents 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 8 May 2008, "Evan Daniel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

{huge snip]

>You might want to upgrade to the latest version of FMS (0.2.14).  I
>found a rather relevant bug, which SomeDude has fixed:  identities
>were publishing captchas even when they weren't publishing trust
>lists.  If you solved one of their captchas, you would be announced to
>them, but not to anyone else.  Given the fraction of identities
>publishing trust lists (low), this means that your odds of actually
>getting announced are small, at best.  0.2.14 will not download
>captchas from identities not publishing trust lists, and won't publish
>them if you're not publishing one.

Ok, I'll have a go at the new version. That definitely sounds like a major
improvement.  I wonder why there's such a low fraction publishing trust
lists?

>Yes, the captchas are automatically generated on demand; the code is
>in simplecaptcha.cpp.  If there was a stock database it wouldn't work,
>as a spammer could just harvest the whole database.
>
>I'm not going to continue my brief attempt to make a different captcha
>system (though I'll keep running my easier version of the same style
>captcha).  There are many far more competent people out there working
>on the problem, and the current state of the art appears to be that
>the spammers are winning.  There have been some interesting proposals
>recently, eg:
>http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080423-researchers-stay-step-ahead-
>of-bots-with-image-based-captcha.html

I read that article a few days ago.  I'd absoultely hate to see one of
those on a normal internet site but it *might* be useful for something like
FMS.

>My current belief is that captchas are doomed, and some alternate
>system is needed.  I have no clue what it is; currently, I think
>hashcash might be the best option, as bad as it is.  For now, out of

Hashcash IMO, isn't so bad a solution.  I use hashcash tokens whenever I
email through the panta remailer or the panta mail2news gateway and it's
not a problem at all.

I wouldn't mind in the least generating say, a 34 bit hashcash token and
using that to get introduced.  According to the token generator I'm using"
http://www.panta-rhei.eu.org/downloads/Hashcash/ a 34 bit token would take
me about 1.5 - 3.5 hours to generate.  I would consider exchanging the
visual captchas for hashcash a very worthwhile trade, even at over 7 hours
each to mint 36 bit tokens.

>band introductions are a good thing, though obviously not a complete
>solution -- though I can certainly sympathize with your stubbornness
>:)

The out of band thing also applies to 'proper' darknet ref exchanges.  The
problem is that I know *one* person on the planet that runs freenet and
it's an 0.5 node.  Given the nature of darknet I wouldn't want to trade
darknet refs with somebody I didn't know and have reason to trust anymore
than I'd want to do it for FMS intros.


- -- 
My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/mytwocents/63//m2ckey.html
(*NOTE* you must be running freenet 0.5 for this link to be usefull)
and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
Frost: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the 0.5 Freenet board

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: N/A

iQA/AwUBSCUoop5/ZUtfDwnNEQKuuwCdHgg65rjvm8yiuWPn1SUrCVBxskQAnj/c
x7PRGuKPo0yvKTkbs1bySYn/
=c7K1
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

___
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[freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-08 Thread Evan Daniel 
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 1:32 AM, MyTwoCents  wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>
>
> On Tue, 6 May 2008, "Evan Daniel"  wrote:
>  >On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:39 PM, MyTwoCents  
> wrote:
>  >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>  >>  Hash: SHA1
>  >>
>  >>  I was going to just post this on my flog (which I did) but decided that
>  >>  since I've no idea if any devs read it, I want to be certain that it gets
>  >>  SOME actual notice by developer types and thus posted it here also
>  >>
>  >>  I've been taking a bit of time lately to check in on 0.7 again and have
>  >>  been trying out FMS.  I have to say that while the idea is a good one, 
> has
>  >>  a few things that need to be addressed. Specifically the process of
>  >>  announcing new identities has problems.
>  >>
>  >>  1) The capcha images themselves have absolutely GOT to be changed.
>  >>  Because: "You must have at least 1 identity created and have received the
>  >>  SSK keypair for it from Freenet before setting trust.", I cannot post
>  >>  messages yet, I have been able to read a few, including one:
>  >>
>  >>  Subject: Re: current CAPTCHAs suck
>  >>  From: The Seeker at cI~w2hrvvyUa1E6PhJ9j5cCoG1xmxSooi7Nez4V2Gd4
>  >>  Date: Thu, 01 May 08 21:31:52 -
>  >>  Message-ID:
>  >>   cIw2hrvvyUa1E6PhJ9j5cCoG1xmxSooi7Nez4
>  >>  V2Gd4>
>  >>
>  >>  That expresses the opinion that the captchas are more likely to be solved
>  >>  by a program than a human.
>  >>
>  >>  Having spent a few hours trying in vain to read the damn things, I have 
> to
>  >>  say that I wouldn't be surprized if that were true.  Of course, I also
>  >>  think that they were specifically designed to make life difficult for
>  >>  people with vision impairments.
>  >>
>  >>  The images need to be something that an actual human will have little to 
> no
>  >>  trouble reading them. Unfortunately, the graphic abortions that are in 
> use
>  >>  now are apparently impossible for me to read, since I've been "solving"
>  >>  (not that I know if they're 'solved' or just wrong.) them for the better
>  >>  part of a week now and have yet to get my identity announced.
>  >>
>  >>  Which brings me to #2.
>  >>
>  >>  How about some feedback?
>  >>
>  >>  Specifically, when I "solve" a captcha, how about telling me if I got it
>  >>  right or not?  My thought, present captchas one at a time.  Allow user to
>  >>  fill in and submit.  If incorrect, TELL THE USER!!!, then present them 
> with
>  >>  a new one.  If it's correct, again TELL THE USER!!! then present them 
> with
>  >>  a new one.
>  >>
>  >>  This business of sitting here going nearly blind trying to read faint,
>  >>  almost invisible characters is bad enough, not even knowing if I actually
>  >>  got one right is liable to make somebody homicidal.  There's absolutely
>  >>  ZERO reason for this to be a fargin guessing game!
>  >>
>  >>  Frankly, if I ever get my hands on the
>  >>  absolute-brain-dead-moron-studying-to-be-an-idiot-and-failing-miserably
>  >>  that decided to use that kind of damn-near-invisible-characters-image I'm
>  >>  going to print out 10,000 pages of them on plywood sheeds and make him 
> eat
>  >>  them while I beat him to death with my monitor!
>  >>
>  >>  Can you tell I'm more than just casually frustrated here?  Good!
>  >>
>  >>  WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE FIX THE DAMNED CAPTCHAS ON FMS?!?
>  >>
>  >>  The preceeding was written while frustrated and angry and then posted
>  >>  anyway to make a point.
>  >>
>  >>  - --
>  >>  My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
>  >>  SSK at TEx6TiaPeszpV4AFw3ToutDb49EPAgM/mytwocents/62//m2ckey.html
>  >>  (*NOTE* you must be running freenet for this link to be usefull)
>  >>  and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
>  >>  Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
>  >>  I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
>  >>  Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
>  >>  Frost: MyTwoCents at Z+59LNK9NhMvxewYggENU4Ww50s On the 0.5 Freenet board
>  >>
>  >>  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>  >>  Version: N/A
>  >>
>  >>  iQA/AwUBSCDgbJ5/ZUtfDwnNEQL29wCfW8gK6/+WA3h7bqnKxeIdzQ30GAcAn2ja
>  >>  DbIHNfhKs12uZq8FvGYc340y
>  >>  =l+8j
>  >>  -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>  >>
>  >>  ___
>  >>  Support mailing list
>  >>  Support at freenetproject.org
>  >>  http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
>  >>  Unsubscribe at
>  >>  http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
>  >>  Or mailto:support-request at freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
>  >>
>  >
>  >I tried to read your flog but couldn't; your SSK is malformed.
>
>  That's not malformed.  It's an 0.5 key.  My flog is mirrored on both
>  networks
>  0.7 key is (wordwrap is probably gonna kill this. ymmv)
>  USK at 
> 0wysM1-lkx2I-iEE8FCfepf5BCpHk4pXQSsMi9KjDAA,rQ8XqGy-MFZIMbM3zWE0VwXzNUf
>  T7lcp5gVYOoFFzio,AQACAAE/mytwocents/11/
>  (it's also listed on 'Another Index')
>
>
>

Re: [freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-08 Thread Evan Daniel 
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 1:32 AM, MyTwoCents <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>
>
> On Tue, 6 May 2008, "Evan Daniel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  >On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:39 PM, MyTwoCents <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>  >>  Hash: SHA1
>  >>
>  >>  I was going to just post this on my flog (which I did) but decided that
>  >>  since I've no idea if any devs read it, I want to be certain that it gets
>  >>  SOME actual notice by developer types and thus posted it here also
>  >>
>  >>  I've been taking a bit of time lately to check in on 0.7 again and have
>  >>  been trying out FMS.  I have to say that while the idea is a good one, 
> has
>  >>  a few things that need to be addressed. Specifically the process of
>  >>  announcing new identities has problems.
>  >>
>  >>  1) The capcha images themselves have absolutely GOT to be changed.
>  >>  Because: "You must have at least 1 identity created and have received the
>  >>  SSK keypair for it from Freenet before setting trust.", I cannot post
>  >>  messages yet, I have been able to read a few, including one:
>  >>
>  >>  Subject: Re: current CAPTCHAs suck
>  >>  From: The [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  >>  Date: Thu, 01 May 08 21:31:52 -
>  >>  Message-ID:
>  >>  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  >>  V2Gd4>
>  >>
>  >>  That expresses the opinion that the captchas are more likely to be solved
>  >>  by a program than a human.
>  >>
>  >>  Having spent a few hours trying in vain to read the damn things, I have 
> to
>  >>  say that I wouldn't be surprized if that were true.  Of course, I also
>  >>  think that they were specifically designed to make life difficult for
>  >>  people with vision impairments.
>  >>
>  >>  The images need to be something that an actual human will have little to 
> no
>  >>  trouble reading them. Unfortunately, the graphic abortions that are in 
> use
>  >>  now are apparently impossible for me to read, since I've been "solving"
>  >>  (not that I know if they're 'solved' or just wrong.) them for the better
>  >>  part of a week now and have yet to get my identity announced.
>  >>
>  >>  Which brings me to #2.
>  >>
>  >>  How about some feedback?
>  >>
>  >>  Specifically, when I "solve" a captcha, how about telling me if I got it
>  >>  right or not?  My thought, present captchas one at a time.  Allow user to
>  >>  fill in and submit.  If incorrect, TELL THE USER!!!, then present them 
> with
>  >>  a new one.  If it's correct, again TELL THE USER!!! then present them 
> with
>  >>  a new one.
>  >>
>  >>  This business of sitting here going nearly blind trying to read faint,
>  >>  almost invisible characters is bad enough, not even knowing if I actually
>  >>  got one right is liable to make somebody homicidal.  There's absolutely
>  >>  ZERO reason for this to be a fargin guessing game!
>  >>
>  >>  Frankly, if I ever get my hands on the
>  >>  absolute-brain-dead-moron-studying-to-be-an-idiot-and-failing-miserably
>  >>  that decided to use that kind of damn-near-invisible-characters-image I'm
>  >>  going to print out 10,000 pages of them on plywood sheeds and make him 
> eat
>  >>  them while I beat him to death with my monitor!
>  >>
>  >>  Can you tell I'm more than just casually frustrated here?  Good!
>  >>
>  >>  WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE FIX THE DAMNED CAPTCHAS ON FMS?!?
>  >>
>  >>  The preceeding was written while frustrated and angry and then posted
>  >>  anyway to make a point.
>  >>
>  >>  - --
>  >>  My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
>  >>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]/mytwocents/62//m2ckey.html
>  >>  (*NOTE* you must be running freenet for this link to be usefull)
>  >>  and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
>  >>  Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
>  >>  I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
>  >>  Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
>  >>  Frost: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the 0.5 Freenet board
>  >>
>  >>  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>  >>  Version: N/A
>  >>
>  >>  iQA/AwUBSCDgbJ5/ZUtfDwnNEQL29wCfW8gK6/+WA3h7bqnKxeIdzQ30GAcAn2ja
>  >>  DbIHNfhKs12uZq8FvGYc340y
>  >>  =l+8j
>  >>  -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>  >>
>  >>  ___
>  >>  Support mailing list
>  >>  Support@freenetproject.org
>  >>  http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
>  >>  Unsubscribe at
>  >>  http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
>  >>  Or mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  >>
>  >
>  >I tried to read your flog but couldn't; your SSK is malformed.
>
>  That's not malformed.  It's an 0.5 key.  My flog is mirrored on both
>  networks
>  0.7 key is (wordwrap is probably gonna kill this. ymmv)
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED],rQ8XqGy-MFZIMbM3zWE0VwXzNUf
>  T7lcp5gVYOoFFzio,AQACAAE/mytwocents/11/
>  (it's also listed on 'Another Index')
>
>
>  >There are ways other than captchas to announce yourself.  If I knew
>  >what your identity was I'd be happy to add it, as you

[freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-08 Thread MyTwoCents 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 6 May 2008, "Evan Daniel"  wrote:
>On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:39 PM, MyTwoCents  
>wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>>  Hash: SHA1
>>
>>  I was going to just post this on my flog (which I did) but decided that
>>  since I've no idea if any devs read it, I want to be certain that it gets
>>  SOME actual notice by developer types and thus posted it here also
>>
>>  I've been taking a bit of time lately to check in on 0.7 again and have
>>  been trying out FMS.  I have to say that while the idea is a good one, has
>>  a few things that need to be addressed. Specifically the process of
>>  announcing new identities has problems.
>>
>>  1) The capcha images themselves have absolutely GOT to be changed.
>>  Because: "You must have at least 1 identity created and have received the
>>  SSK keypair for it from Freenet before setting trust.", I cannot post
>>  messages yet, I have been able to read a few, including one:
>>
>>  Subject: Re: current CAPTCHAs suck
>>  From: The Seeker at cI~w2hrvvyUa1E6PhJ9j5cCoG1xmxSooi7Nez4V2Gd4
>>  Date: Thu, 01 May 08 21:31:52 -
>>  Message-ID:
>>  > cIw2hrvvyUa1E6PhJ9j5cCoG1xmxSooi7Nez4
>>  V2Gd4>
>>
>>  That expresses the opinion that the captchas are more likely to be solved
>>  by a program than a human.
>>
>>  Having spent a few hours trying in vain to read the damn things, I have to
>>  say that I wouldn't be surprized if that were true.  Of course, I also
>>  think that they were specifically designed to make life difficult for
>>  people with vision impairments.
>>
>>  The images need to be something that an actual human will have little to no
>>  trouble reading them. Unfortunately, the graphic abortions that are in use
>>  now are apparently impossible for me to read, since I've been "solving"
>>  (not that I know if they're 'solved' or just wrong.) them for the better
>>  part of a week now and have yet to get my identity announced.
>>
>>  Which brings me to #2.
>>
>>  How about some feedback?
>>
>>  Specifically, when I "solve" a captcha, how about telling me if I got it
>>  right or not?  My thought, present captchas one at a time.  Allow user to
>>  fill in and submit.  If incorrect, TELL THE USER!!!, then present them with
>>  a new one.  If it's correct, again TELL THE USER!!! then present them with
>>  a new one.
>>
>>  This business of sitting here going nearly blind trying to read faint,
>>  almost invisible characters is bad enough, not even knowing if I actually
>>  got one right is liable to make somebody homicidal.  There's absolutely
>>  ZERO reason for this to be a fargin guessing game!
>>
>>  Frankly, if I ever get my hands on the
>>  absolute-brain-dead-moron-studying-to-be-an-idiot-and-failing-miserably
>>  that decided to use that kind of damn-near-invisible-characters-image I'm
>>  going to print out 10,000 pages of them on plywood sheeds and make him eat
>>  them while I beat him to death with my monitor!
>>
>>  Can you tell I'm more than just casually frustrated here?  Good!
>>
>>  WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE FIX THE DAMNED CAPTCHAS ON FMS?!?
>>
>>  The preceeding was written while frustrated and angry and then posted
>>  anyway to make a point.
>>
>>  - --
>>  My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
>>  SSK at TEx6TiaPeszpV4AFw3ToutDb49EPAgM/mytwocents/62//m2ckey.html
>>  (*NOTE* you must be running freenet for this link to be usefull)
>>  and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
>>  Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
>>  I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
>>  Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
>>  Frost: MyTwoCents at Z+59LNK9NhMvxewYggENU4Ww50s On the 0.5 Freenet board
>>
>>  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>>  Version: N/A
>>
>>  iQA/AwUBSCDgbJ5/ZUtfDwnNEQL29wCfW8gK6/+WA3h7bqnKxeIdzQ30GAcAn2ja
>>  DbIHNfhKs12uZq8FvGYc340y
>>  =l+8j
>>  -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>>
>>  ___
>>  Support mailing list
>>  Support at freenetproject.org
>>  http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
>>  Unsubscribe at
>>  http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
>>  Or mailto:support-request at freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
>>
>
>I tried to read your flog but couldn't; your SSK is malformed.

That's not malformed.  It's an 0.5 key.  My flog is mirrored on both
networks
0.7 key is (wordwrap is probably gonna kill this. ymmv)
USK at 0wysM1-lkx2I-iEE8FCfepf5BCpHk4pXQSsMi9KjDAA,rQ8XqGy-MFZIMbM3zWE0VwXzNUf
T7lcp5gVYOoFFzio,AQACAAE/mytwocents/11/
(it's also listed on 'Another Index')

>There are ways other than captchas to announce yourself.  If I knew
>what your identity was I'd be happy to add it, as you're obviously
>human.

I'd take you up on that if it werent for a stubborn streak that insists on
my being able to do it myself by following the few directions I could find
and the software working and letting me in.

>You could post a patch with better captchas.  As the in

Re: [freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-07 Thread MyTwoCents 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 6 May 2008, "Evan Daniel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:39 PM, MyTwoCents <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>>  Hash: SHA1
>>
>>  I was going to just post this on my flog (which I did) but decided that
>>  since I've no idea if any devs read it, I want to be certain that it gets
>>  SOME actual notice by developer types and thus posted it here also
>>
>>  I've been taking a bit of time lately to check in on 0.7 again and have
>>  been trying out FMS.  I have to say that while the idea is a good one, has
>>  a few things that need to be addressed. Specifically the process of
>>  announcing new identities has problems.
>>
>>  1) The capcha images themselves have absolutely GOT to be changed.
>>  Because: "You must have at least 1 identity created and have received the
>>  SSK keypair for it from Freenet before setting trust.", I cannot post
>>  messages yet, I have been able to read a few, including one:
>>
>>  Subject: Re: current CAPTCHAs suck
>>  From: The [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>  Date: Thu, 01 May 08 21:31:52 -
>>  Message-ID:
>>  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>  V2Gd4>
>>
>>  That expresses the opinion that the captchas are more likely to be solved
>>  by a program than a human.
>>
>>  Having spent a few hours trying in vain to read the damn things, I have to
>>  say that I wouldn't be surprized if that were true.  Of course, I also
>>  think that they were specifically designed to make life difficult for
>>  people with vision impairments.
>>
>>  The images need to be something that an actual human will have little to no
>>  trouble reading them. Unfortunately, the graphic abortions that are in use
>>  now are apparently impossible for me to read, since I've been "solving"
>>  (not that I know if they're 'solved' or just wrong.) them for the better
>>  part of a week now and have yet to get my identity announced.
>>
>>  Which brings me to #2.
>>
>>  How about some feedback?
>>
>>  Specifically, when I "solve" a captcha, how about telling me if I got it
>>  right or not?  My thought, present captchas one at a time.  Allow user to
>>  fill in and submit.  If incorrect, TELL THE USER!!!, then present them with
>>  a new one.  If it's correct, again TELL THE USER!!! then present them with
>>  a new one.
>>
>>  This business of sitting here going nearly blind trying to read faint,
>>  almost invisible characters is bad enough, not even knowing if I actually
>>  got one right is liable to make somebody homicidal.  There's absolutely
>>  ZERO reason for this to be a fargin guessing game!
>>
>>  Frankly, if I ever get my hands on the
>>  absolute-brain-dead-moron-studying-to-be-an-idiot-and-failing-miserably
>>  that decided to use that kind of damn-near-invisible-characters-image I'm
>>  going to print out 10,000 pages of them on plywood sheeds and make him eat
>>  them while I beat him to death with my monitor!
>>
>>  Can you tell I'm more than just casually frustrated here?  Good!
>>
>>  WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE FIX THE DAMNED CAPTCHAS ON FMS?!?
>>
>>  The preceeding was written while frustrated and angry and then posted
>>  anyway to make a point.
>>
>>  - --
>>  My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
>>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]/mytwocents/62//m2ckey.html
>>  (*NOTE* you must be running freenet for this link to be usefull)
>>  and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
>>  Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
>>  I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
>>  Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
>>  Frost: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the 0.5 Freenet board
>>
>>  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>>  Version: N/A
>>
>>  iQA/AwUBSCDgbJ5/ZUtfDwnNEQL29wCfW8gK6/+WA3h7bqnKxeIdzQ30GAcAn2ja
>>  DbIHNfhKs12uZq8FvGYc340y
>>  =l+8j
>>  -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>>
>>  ___
>>  Support mailing list
>>  Support@freenetproject.org
>>  http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
>>  Unsubscribe at
>>  http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
>>  Or mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>
>I tried to read your flog but couldn't; your SSK is malformed.

That's not malformed.  It's an 0.5 key.  My flog is mirrored on both
networks
0.7 key is (wordwrap is probably gonna kill this. ymmv)
[EMAIL PROTECTED],rQ8XqGy-MFZIMbM3zWE0VwXzNUf
T7lcp5gVYOoFFzio,AQACAAE/mytwocents/11/
(it's also listed on 'Another Index')

>There are ways other than captchas to announce yourself.  If I knew
>what your identity was I'd be happy to add it, as you're obviously
>human.

I'd take you up on that if it werent for a stubborn streak that insists on
my being able to do it myself by following the few directions I could find
and the software working and letting me in.

>You could post a patch with better captchas.  As the initiator of the

If I had the skills I'd be glad to give it a go.  Unfortunately I don't.

>thread you referenced, I would be in favor.  I've g

[freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-07 Thread Matthew Toseland 
Success/failure feedback isn't feasible as it would transform the problem into 
a hashcash problem. What is feasible is adding one more character which would 
be a checksum of the rest, of course this would mess up sometimes...

On Wednesday 07 May 2008 02:39, MyTwoCents wrote:
> I was going to just post this on my flog (which I did) but decided that
> since I've no idea if any devs read it, I want to be certain that it gets
> SOME actual notice by developer types and thus posted it here also
> 
> I've been taking a bit of time lately to check in on 0.7 again and have
> been trying out FMS.  I have to say that while the idea is a good one, has
> a few things that need to be addressed. Specifically the process of
> announcing new identities has problems.
> 
> 1) The capcha images themselves have absolutely GOT to be changed.
> Because: "You must have at least 1 identity created and have received the
> SSK keypair for it from Freenet before setting trust.", I cannot post
> messages yet, I have been able to read a few, including one:
> 
> Subject: Re: current CAPTCHAs suck
> From: The Seeker at cI~w2hrvvyUa1E6PhJ9j5cCoG1xmxSooi7Nez4V2Gd4
> Date: Thu, 01 May 08 21:31:52 -
> Message-ID:
>  V2Gd4>
> 
> That expresses the opinion that the captchas are more likely to be solved
> by a program than a human.
> 
> Having spent a few hours trying in vain to read the damn things, I have to
> say that I wouldn't be surprized if that were true.  Of course, I also
> think that they were specifically designed to make life difficult for
> people with vision impairments.
> 
> The images need to be something that an actual human will have little to no
> trouble reading them. Unfortunately, the graphic abortions that are in use
> now are apparently impossible for me to read, since I've been "solving"
> (not that I know if they're 'solved' or just wrong.) them for the better
> part of a week now and have yet to get my identity announced.
> 
> Which brings me to #2.
> 
> How about some feedback?
> 
> Specifically, when I "solve" a captcha, how about telling me if I got it
> right or not?  My thought, present captchas one at a time.  Allow user to
> fill in and submit.  If incorrect, TELL THE USER!!!, then present them with
> a new one.  If it's correct, again TELL THE USER!!! then present them with
> a new one.
> 
> This business of sitting here going nearly blind trying to read faint,
> almost invisible characters is bad enough, not even knowing if I actually
> got one right is liable to make somebody homicidal.  There's absolutely
> ZERO reason for this to be a fargin guessing game!
> 
> Frankly, if I ever get my hands on the
> absolute-brain-dead-moron-studying-to-be-an-idiot-and-failing-miserably
> that decided to use that kind of damn-near-invisible-characters-image I'm
> going to print out 10,000 pages of them on plywood sheeds and make him eat
> them while I beat him to death with my monitor!
> 
> Can you tell I'm more than just casually frustrated here?  Good!
> 
> WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE FIX THE DAMNED CAPTCHAS ON FMS?!?
> 
> The preceeding was written while frustrated and angry and then posted
> anyway to make a point.
> 
> --
> My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
> SSK at TEx6TiaPeszpV4AFw3ToutDb49EPAgM/mytwocents/62//m2ckey.html
> (*NOTE* you must be running freenet for this link to be usefull)
> and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
> Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
> I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
> Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
> Frost: MyTwoCents at Z+59LNK9NhMvxewYggENU4Ww50s On the 0.5 Freenet board
> 
> 
> ___
> Support mailing list
> Support at freenetproject.org
> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
> Unsubscribe at 
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
> Or mailto:support-request at freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
> 
> 
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Re: [freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-07 Thread Matthew Toseland 
Success/failure feedback isn't feasible as it would transform the problem into 
a hashcash problem. What is feasible is adding one more character which would 
be a checksum of the rest, of course this would mess up sometimes...

On Wednesday 07 May 2008 02:39, MyTwoCents wrote:
> I was going to just post this on my flog (which I did) but decided that
> since I've no idea if any devs read it, I want to be certain that it gets
> SOME actual notice by developer types and thus posted it here also
> 
> I've been taking a bit of time lately to check in on 0.7 again and have
> been trying out FMS.  I have to say that while the idea is a good one, has
> a few things that need to be addressed. Specifically the process of
> announcing new identities has problems.
> 
> 1) The capcha images themselves have absolutely GOT to be changed.
> Because: "You must have at least 1 identity created and have received the
> SSK keypair for it from Freenet before setting trust.", I cannot post
> messages yet, I have been able to read a few, including one:
> 
> Subject: Re: current CAPTCHAs suck
> From: The [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Thu, 01 May 08 21:31:52 -
> Message-ID:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> V2Gd4>
> 
> That expresses the opinion that the captchas are more likely to be solved
> by a program than a human.
> 
> Having spent a few hours trying in vain to read the damn things, I have to
> say that I wouldn't be surprized if that were true.  Of course, I also
> think that they were specifically designed to make life difficult for
> people with vision impairments.
> 
> The images need to be something that an actual human will have little to no
> trouble reading them. Unfortunately, the graphic abortions that are in use
> now are apparently impossible for me to read, since I've been "solving"
> (not that I know if they're 'solved' or just wrong.) them for the better
> part of a week now and have yet to get my identity announced.
> 
> Which brings me to #2.
> 
> How about some feedback?
> 
> Specifically, when I "solve" a captcha, how about telling me if I got it
> right or not?  My thought, present captchas one at a time.  Allow user to
> fill in and submit.  If incorrect, TELL THE USER!!!, then present them with
> a new one.  If it's correct, again TELL THE USER!!! then present them with
> a new one.
> 
> This business of sitting here going nearly blind trying to read faint,
> almost invisible characters is bad enough, not even knowing if I actually
> got one right is liable to make somebody homicidal.  There's absolutely
> ZERO reason for this to be a fargin guessing game!
> 
> Frankly, if I ever get my hands on the
> absolute-brain-dead-moron-studying-to-be-an-idiot-and-failing-miserably
> that decided to use that kind of damn-near-invisible-characters-image I'm
> going to print out 10,000 pages of them on plywood sheeds and make him eat
> them while I beat him to death with my monitor!
> 
> Can you tell I'm more than just casually frustrated here?  Good!
> 
> WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE FIX THE DAMNED CAPTCHAS ON FMS?!?
> 
> The preceeding was written while frustrated and angry and then posted
> anyway to make a point.
> 
> --
> My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]/mytwocents/62//m2ckey.html
> (*NOTE* you must be running freenet for this link to be usefull)
> and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
> Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
> I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
> Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
> Frost: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the 0.5 Freenet board
> 
> 
> ___
> Support mailing list
> Support@freenetproject.org
> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
> Unsubscribe at 
http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
> Or mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 


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[freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-07 Thread MyTwoCents 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I was going to just post this on my flog (which I did) but decided that
since I've no idea if any devs read it, I want to be certain that it gets
SOME actual notice by developer types and thus posted it here also

I've been taking a bit of time lately to check in on 0.7 again and have
been trying out FMS.  I have to say that while the idea is a good one, has
a few things that need to be addressed. Specifically the process of
announcing new identities has problems.

1) The capcha images themselves have absolutely GOT to be changed.
Because: "You must have at least 1 identity created and have received the
SSK keypair for it from Freenet before setting trust.", I cannot post
messages yet, I have been able to read a few, including one:

Subject: Re: current CAPTCHAs suck
From: The Seeker@cI~w2hrvvyUa1E6PhJ9j5cCoG1xmxSooi7Nez4V2Gd4
Date: Thu, 01 May 08 21:31:52 -
Message-ID:


That expresses the opinion that the captchas are more likely to be solved
by a program than a human.

Having spent a few hours trying in vain to read the damn things, I have to
say that I wouldn't be surprized if that were true.  Of course, I also
think that they were specifically designed to make life difficult for
people with vision impairments.

The images need to be something that an actual human will have little to no
trouble reading them. Unfortunately, the graphic abortions that are in use
now are apparently impossible for me to read, since I've been "solving"
(not that I know if they're 'solved' or just wrong.) them for the better
part of a week now and have yet to get my identity announced.

Which brings me to #2.

How about some feedback?

Specifically, when I "solve" a captcha, how about telling me if I got it
right or not?  My thought, present captchas one at a time.  Allow user to
fill in and submit.  If incorrect, TELL THE USER!!!, then present them with
a new one.  If it's correct, again TELL THE USER!!! then present them with
a new one.

This business of sitting here going nearly blind trying to read faint,
almost invisible characters is bad enough, not even knowing if I actually
got one right is liable to make somebody homicidal.  There's absolutely
ZERO reason for this to be a fargin guessing game!

Frankly, if I ever get my hands on the
absolute-brain-dead-moron-studying-to-be-an-idiot-and-failing-miserably
that decided to use that kind of damn-near-invisible-characters-image I'm
going to print out 10,000 pages of them on plywood sheeds and make him eat
them while I beat him to death with my monitor!

Can you tell I'm more than just casually frustrated here?  Good!

WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE FIX THE DAMNED CAPTCHAS ON FMS?!?

The preceeding was written while frustrated and angry and then posted
anyway to make a point.

- -- 
My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
SSK at TEx6TiaPeszpV4AFw3ToutDb49EPAgM/mytwocents/62//m2ckey.html
(*NOTE* you must be running freenet for this link to be usefull)
and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
Frost: MyTwoCents at Z+59LNK9NhMvxewYggENU4Ww50s On the 0.5 Freenet board

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Version: N/A

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DbIHNfhKs12uZq8FvGYc340y
=l+8j
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

[freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-06 Thread Evan Daniel 
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 10:05 PM, Evan Daniel  wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:39 PM, MyTwoCents  
> wrote:
>  > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>  >  Hash: SHA1
>  >
>  >  I was going to just post this on my flog (which I did) but decided that
>  >  since I've no idea if any devs read it, I want to be certain that it gets
>  >  SOME actual notice by developer types and thus posted it here also
>  >
>  >  I've been taking a bit of time lately to check in on 0.7 again and have
>  >  been trying out FMS.  I have to say that while the idea is a good one, has
>  >  a few things that need to be addressed. Specifically the process of
>  >  announcing new identities has problems.
>  >
>  >  1) The capcha images themselves have absolutely GOT to be changed.
>  >  Because: "You must have at least 1 identity created and have received the
>  >  SSK keypair for it from Freenet before setting trust.", I cannot post
>  >  messages yet, I have been able to read a few, including one:
>  >
>  >  Subject: Re: current CAPTCHAs suck
>  >  From: The Seeker at cI~w2hrvvyUa1E6PhJ9j5cCoG1xmxSooi7Nez4V2Gd4
>  >  Date: Thu, 01 May 08 21:31:52 -
>  >  Message-ID:
>  >   cIw2hrvvyUa1E6PhJ9j5cCoG1xmxSooi7Nez4
>  >  V2Gd4>
>  >
>  >  That expresses the opinion that the captchas are more likely to be solved
>  >  by a program than a human.
>  >
>  >  Having spent a few hours trying in vain to read the damn things, I have to
>  >  say that I wouldn't be surprized if that were true.  Of course, I also
>  >  think that they were specifically designed to make life difficult for
>  >  people with vision impairments.
>  >
>  >  The images need to be something that an actual human will have little to 
> no
>  >  trouble reading them. Unfortunately, the graphic abortions that are in use
>  >  now are apparently impossible for me to read, since I've been "solving"
>  >  (not that I know if they're 'solved' or just wrong.) them for the better
>  >  part of a week now and have yet to get my identity announced.
>  >
>  >  Which brings me to #2.
>  >
>  >  How about some feedback?
>  >
>  >  Specifically, when I "solve" a captcha, how about telling me if I got it
>  >  right or not?  My thought, present captchas one at a time.  Allow user to
>  >  fill in and submit.  If incorrect, TELL THE USER!!!, then present them 
> with
>  >  a new one.  If it's correct, again TELL THE USER!!! then present them with
>  >  a new one.
>  >
>  >  This business of sitting here going nearly blind trying to read faint,
>  >  almost invisible characters is bad enough, not even knowing if I actually
>  >  got one right is liable to make somebody homicidal.  There's absolutely
>  >  ZERO reason for this to be a fargin guessing game!
>  >
>  >  Frankly, if I ever get my hands on the
>  >  absolute-brain-dead-moron-studying-to-be-an-idiot-and-failing-miserably
>  >  that decided to use that kind of damn-near-invisible-characters-image I'm
>  >  going to print out 10,000 pages of them on plywood sheeds and make him eat
>  >  them while I beat him to death with my monitor!
>  >
>  >  Can you tell I'm more than just casually frustrated here?  Good!
>  >
>  >  WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE FIX THE DAMNED CAPTCHAS ON FMS?!?
>  >
>  >  The preceeding was written while frustrated and angry and then posted
>  >  anyway to make a point.
>  >
>  >  - --
>  >  My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
>  >  SSK at TEx6TiaPeszpV4AFw3ToutDb49EPAgM/mytwocents/62//m2ckey.html
>  >  (*NOTE* you must be running freenet for this link to be usefull)
>  >  and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
>  >  Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
>  >  I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
>  >  Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
>  >  Frost: MyTwoCents at Z+59LNK9NhMvxewYggENU4Ww50s On the 0.5 Freenet board
>  >
>  >  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>  >  Version: N/A
>  >
>  >  iQA/AwUBSCDgbJ5/ZUtfDwnNEQL29wCfW8gK6/+WA3h7bqnKxeIdzQ30GAcAn2ja
>  >  DbIHNfhKs12uZq8FvGYc340y
>  >  =l+8j
>  >  -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>  >
>  >  ___
>  >  Support mailing list
>  >  Support at freenetproject.org
>  >  http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
>  >  Unsubscribe at 
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
>  >  Or mailto:support-request at freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
>  >
>
>  I tried to read your flog but couldn't; your SSK is malformed.
>
>  There are ways other than captchas to announce yourself.  If I knew
>  what your identity was I'd be happy to add it, as you're obviously
>  human.
>
>  You could post a patch with better captchas.  As the initiator of the
>  thread you referenced, I would be in favor.  I've got some code I'm
>  playing with, but it's not there yet.  Working on other people's code
>  always feels more like work than fun, and the same is true of C++, so
>  it probably won't get posted for a while yet.
>
>  In the meantime I've modified the F

[freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-06 Thread Evan Daniel 
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:39 PM, MyTwoCents  wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  I was going to just post this on my flog (which I did) but decided that
>  since I've no idea if any devs read it, I want to be certain that it gets
>  SOME actual notice by developer types and thus posted it here also
>
>  I've been taking a bit of time lately to check in on 0.7 again and have
>  been trying out FMS.  I have to say that while the idea is a good one, has
>  a few things that need to be addressed. Specifically the process of
>  announcing new identities has problems.
>
>  1) The capcha images themselves have absolutely GOT to be changed.
>  Because: "You must have at least 1 identity created and have received the
>  SSK keypair for it from Freenet before setting trust.", I cannot post
>  messages yet, I have been able to read a few, including one:
>
>  Subject: Re: current CAPTCHAs suck
>  From: The Seeker at cI~w2hrvvyUa1E6PhJ9j5cCoG1xmxSooi7Nez4V2Gd4
>  Date: Thu, 01 May 08 21:31:52 -
>  Message-ID:
>   cIw2hrvvyUa1E6PhJ9j5cCoG1xmxSooi7Nez4
>  V2Gd4>
>
>  That expresses the opinion that the captchas are more likely to be solved
>  by a program than a human.
>
>  Having spent a few hours trying in vain to read the damn things, I have to
>  say that I wouldn't be surprized if that were true.  Of course, I also
>  think that they were specifically designed to make life difficult for
>  people with vision impairments.
>
>  The images need to be something that an actual human will have little to no
>  trouble reading them. Unfortunately, the graphic abortions that are in use
>  now are apparently impossible for me to read, since I've been "solving"
>  (not that I know if they're 'solved' or just wrong.) them for the better
>  part of a week now and have yet to get my identity announced.
>
>  Which brings me to #2.
>
>  How about some feedback?
>
>  Specifically, when I "solve" a captcha, how about telling me if I got it
>  right or not?  My thought, present captchas one at a time.  Allow user to
>  fill in and submit.  If incorrect, TELL THE USER!!!, then present them with
>  a new one.  If it's correct, again TELL THE USER!!! then present them with
>  a new one.
>
>  This business of sitting here going nearly blind trying to read faint,
>  almost invisible characters is bad enough, not even knowing if I actually
>  got one right is liable to make somebody homicidal.  There's absolutely
>  ZERO reason for this to be a fargin guessing game!
>
>  Frankly, if I ever get my hands on the
>  absolute-brain-dead-moron-studying-to-be-an-idiot-and-failing-miserably
>  that decided to use that kind of damn-near-invisible-characters-image I'm
>  going to print out 10,000 pages of them on plywood sheeds and make him eat
>  them while I beat him to death with my monitor!
>
>  Can you tell I'm more than just casually frustrated here?  Good!
>
>  WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE FIX THE DAMNED CAPTCHAS ON FMS?!?
>
>  The preceeding was written while frustrated and angry and then posted
>  anyway to make a point.
>
>  - --
>  My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
>  SSK at TEx6TiaPeszpV4AFw3ToutDb49EPAgM/mytwocents/62//m2ckey.html
>  (*NOTE* you must be running freenet for this link to be usefull)
>  and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
>  Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
>  I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
>  Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
>  Frost: MyTwoCents at Z+59LNK9NhMvxewYggENU4Ww50s On the 0.5 Freenet board
>
>  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>  Version: N/A
>
>  iQA/AwUBSCDgbJ5/ZUtfDwnNEQL29wCfW8gK6/+WA3h7bqnKxeIdzQ30GAcAn2ja
>  DbIHNfhKs12uZq8FvGYc340y
>  =l+8j
>  -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>  ___
>  Support mailing list
>  Support at freenetproject.org
>  http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
>  Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
>  Or mailto:support-request at freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
>

I tried to read your flog but couldn't; your SSK is malformed.

There are ways other than captchas to announce yourself.  If I knew
what your identity was I'd be happy to add it, as you're obviously
human.

You could post a patch with better captchas.  As the initiator of the
thread you referenced, I would be in favor.  I've got some code I'm
playing with, but it's not there yet.  Working on other people's code
always feels more like work than fun, and the same is true of C++, so
it probably won't get posted for a while yet.

In the meantime I've modified the FMS source so that my node will post
easier versions of the same captchas.  If this creates a spam problem,
I apologize; somebody tell me if I'm announcing all the spammers and
don't notice :D

I won't post the changes I made.  They're trivial and anyone else can
make similar ones, and besides having more variety is probably not a
bad thing.  I encourage people to do the sam

Re: [freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-06 Thread Evan Daniel 
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 10:05 PM, Evan Daniel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:39 PM, MyTwoCents <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>  >  Hash: SHA1
>  >
>  >  I was going to just post this on my flog (which I did) but decided that
>  >  since I've no idea if any devs read it, I want to be certain that it gets
>  >  SOME actual notice by developer types and thus posted it here also
>  >
>  >  I've been taking a bit of time lately to check in on 0.7 again and have
>  >  been trying out FMS.  I have to say that while the idea is a good one, has
>  >  a few things that need to be addressed. Specifically the process of
>  >  announcing new identities has problems.
>  >
>  >  1) The capcha images themselves have absolutely GOT to be changed.
>  >  Because: "You must have at least 1 identity created and have received the
>  >  SSK keypair for it from Freenet before setting trust.", I cannot post
>  >  messages yet, I have been able to read a few, including one:
>  >
>  >  Subject: Re: current CAPTCHAs suck
>  >  From: The [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  >  Date: Thu, 01 May 08 21:31:52 -
>  >  Message-ID:
>  >  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  >  V2Gd4>
>  >
>  >  That expresses the opinion that the captchas are more likely to be solved
>  >  by a program than a human.
>  >
>  >  Having spent a few hours trying in vain to read the damn things, I have to
>  >  say that I wouldn't be surprized if that were true.  Of course, I also
>  >  think that they were specifically designed to make life difficult for
>  >  people with vision impairments.
>  >
>  >  The images need to be something that an actual human will have little to 
> no
>  >  trouble reading them. Unfortunately, the graphic abortions that are in use
>  >  now are apparently impossible for me to read, since I've been "solving"
>  >  (not that I know if they're 'solved' or just wrong.) them for the better
>  >  part of a week now and have yet to get my identity announced.
>  >
>  >  Which brings me to #2.
>  >
>  >  How about some feedback?
>  >
>  >  Specifically, when I "solve" a captcha, how about telling me if I got it
>  >  right or not?  My thought, present captchas one at a time.  Allow user to
>  >  fill in and submit.  If incorrect, TELL THE USER!!!, then present them 
> with
>  >  a new one.  If it's correct, again TELL THE USER!!! then present them with
>  >  a new one.
>  >
>  >  This business of sitting here going nearly blind trying to read faint,
>  >  almost invisible characters is bad enough, not even knowing if I actually
>  >  got one right is liable to make somebody homicidal.  There's absolutely
>  >  ZERO reason for this to be a fargin guessing game!
>  >
>  >  Frankly, if I ever get my hands on the
>  >  absolute-brain-dead-moron-studying-to-be-an-idiot-and-failing-miserably
>  >  that decided to use that kind of damn-near-invisible-characters-image I'm
>  >  going to print out 10,000 pages of them on plywood sheeds and make him eat
>  >  them while I beat him to death with my monitor!
>  >
>  >  Can you tell I'm more than just casually frustrated here?  Good!
>  >
>  >  WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE FIX THE DAMNED CAPTCHAS ON FMS?!?
>  >
>  >  The preceeding was written while frustrated and angry and then posted
>  >  anyway to make a point.
>  >
>  >  - --
>  >  My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
>  >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]/mytwocents/62//m2ckey.html
>  >  (*NOTE* you must be running freenet for this link to be usefull)
>  >  and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
>  >  Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
>  >  I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
>  >  Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
>  >  Frost: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the 0.5 Freenet board
>  >
>  >  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>  >  Version: N/A
>  >
>  >  iQA/AwUBSCDgbJ5/ZUtfDwnNEQL29wCfW8gK6/+WA3h7bqnKxeIdzQ30GAcAn2ja
>  >  DbIHNfhKs12uZq8FvGYc340y
>  >  =l+8j
>  >  -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>  >
>  >  ___
>  >  Support mailing list
>  >  Support@freenetproject.org
>  >  http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
>  >  Unsubscribe at 
> http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
>  >  Or mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  >
>
>  I tried to read your flog but couldn't; your SSK is malformed.
>
>  There are ways other than captchas to announce yourself.  If I knew
>  what your identity was I'd be happy to add it, as you're obviously
>  human.
>
>  You could post a patch with better captchas.  As the initiator of the
>  thread you referenced, I would be in favor.  I've got some code I'm
>  playing with, but it's not there yet.  Working on other people's code
>  always feels more like work than fun, and the same is true of C++, so
>  it probably won't get posted for a while yet.
>
>  In the meantime I've modified the FMS source so that my node will post
>  easier versions of the same captchas.  If this creates a spam problem,

Re: [freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-06 Thread aman pervaiz 
Definitely agree with the captchas problem. I was unable to announce
my identity and gave up!
Frost, though spammed right now is light years ahead usability wise.



On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 6:39 PM, MyTwoCents <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  I was going to just post this on my flog (which I did) but decided that
>  since I've no idea if any devs read it, I want to be certain that it gets
>  SOME actual notice by developer types and thus posted it here also
>
>  I've been taking a bit of time lately to check in on 0.7 again and have
>  been trying out FMS.  I have to say that while the idea is a good one, has
>  a few things that need to be addressed. Specifically the process of
>  announcing new identities has problems.
>
>  1) The capcha images themselves have absolutely GOT to be changed.
>  Because: "You must have at least 1 identity created and have received the
>  SSK keypair for it from Freenet before setting trust.", I cannot post
>  messages yet, I have been able to read a few, including one:
>
>  Subject: Re: current CAPTCHAs suck
>  From: The [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  Date: Thu, 01 May 08 21:31:52 -
>  Message-ID:
>  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  V2Gd4>
>
>  That expresses the opinion that the captchas are more likely to be solved
>  by a program than a human.
>
>  Having spent a few hours trying in vain to read the damn things, I have to
>  say that I wouldn't be surprized if that were true.  Of course, I also
>  think that they were specifically designed to make life difficult for
>  people with vision impairments.
>
>  The images need to be something that an actual human will have little to no
>  trouble reading them. Unfortunately, the graphic abortions that are in use
>  now are apparently impossible for me to read, since I've been "solving"
>  (not that I know if they're 'solved' or just wrong.) them for the better
>  part of a week now and have yet to get my identity announced.
>
>  Which brings me to #2.
>
>  How about some feedback?
>
>  Specifically, when I "solve" a captcha, how about telling me if I got it
>  right or not?  My thought, present captchas one at a time.  Allow user to
>  fill in and submit.  If incorrect, TELL THE USER!!!, then present them with
>  a new one.  If it's correct, again TELL THE USER!!! then present them with
>  a new one.
>
>  This business of sitting here going nearly blind trying to read faint,
>  almost invisible characters is bad enough, not even knowing if I actually
>  got one right is liable to make somebody homicidal.  There's absolutely
>  ZERO reason for this to be a fargin guessing game!
>
>  Frankly, if I ever get my hands on the
>  absolute-brain-dead-moron-studying-to-be-an-idiot-and-failing-miserably
>  that decided to use that kind of damn-near-invisible-characters-image I'm
>  going to print out 10,000 pages of them on plywood sheeds and make him eat
>  them while I beat him to death with my monitor!
>
>  Can you tell I'm more than just casually frustrated here?  Good!
>
>  WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE FIX THE DAMNED CAPTCHAS ON FMS?!?
>
>  The preceeding was written while frustrated and angry and then posted
>  anyway to make a point.
>
>  - --
>  My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]/mytwocents/62//m2ckey.html
>  (*NOTE* you must be running freenet for this link to be usefull)
>  and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
>  Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
>  I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
>  Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
>  Frost: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the 0.5 Freenet board
>
>  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>  Version: N/A
>
>  iQA/AwUBSCDgbJ5/ZUtfDwnNEQL29wCfW8gK6/+WA3h7bqnKxeIdzQ30GAcAn2ja
>  DbIHNfhKs12uZq8FvGYc340y
>  =l+8j
>  -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>  ___
>  Support mailing list
>  Support@freenetproject.org
>  http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
>  Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
>  Or mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>



-- 
Though I know that I know nothing.
___
Support mailing list
Support@freenetproject.org
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
Or mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

[freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-06 Thread aman pervaiz 
Definitely agree with the captchas problem. I was unable to announce
my identity and gave up!
Frost, though spammed right now is light years ahead usability wise.



On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 6:39 PM, MyTwoCents  wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  I was going to just post this on my flog (which I did) but decided that
>  since I've no idea if any devs read it, I want to be certain that it gets
>  SOME actual notice by developer types and thus posted it here also
>
>  I've been taking a bit of time lately to check in on 0.7 again and have
>  been trying out FMS.  I have to say that while the idea is a good one, has
>  a few things that need to be addressed. Specifically the process of
>  announcing new identities has problems.
>
>  1) The capcha images themselves have absolutely GOT to be changed.
>  Because: "You must have at least 1 identity created and have received the
>  SSK keypair for it from Freenet before setting trust.", I cannot post
>  messages yet, I have been able to read a few, including one:
>
>  Subject: Re: current CAPTCHAs suck
>  From: The Seeker at cI~w2hrvvyUa1E6PhJ9j5cCoG1xmxSooi7Nez4V2Gd4
>  Date: Thu, 01 May 08 21:31:52 -
>  Message-ID:
>   cIw2hrvvyUa1E6PhJ9j5cCoG1xmxSooi7Nez4
>  V2Gd4>
>
>  That expresses the opinion that the captchas are more likely to be solved
>  by a program than a human.
>
>  Having spent a few hours trying in vain to read the damn things, I have to
>  say that I wouldn't be surprized if that were true.  Of course, I also
>  think that they were specifically designed to make life difficult for
>  people with vision impairments.
>
>  The images need to be something that an actual human will have little to no
>  trouble reading them. Unfortunately, the graphic abortions that are in use
>  now are apparently impossible for me to read, since I've been "solving"
>  (not that I know if they're 'solved' or just wrong.) them for the better
>  part of a week now and have yet to get my identity announced.
>
>  Which brings me to #2.
>
>  How about some feedback?
>
>  Specifically, when I "solve" a captcha, how about telling me if I got it
>  right or not?  My thought, present captchas one at a time.  Allow user to
>  fill in and submit.  If incorrect, TELL THE USER!!!, then present them with
>  a new one.  If it's correct, again TELL THE USER!!! then present them with
>  a new one.
>
>  This business of sitting here going nearly blind trying to read faint,
>  almost invisible characters is bad enough, not even knowing if I actually
>  got one right is liable to make somebody homicidal.  There's absolutely
>  ZERO reason for this to be a fargin guessing game!
>
>  Frankly, if I ever get my hands on the
>  absolute-brain-dead-moron-studying-to-be-an-idiot-and-failing-miserably
>  that decided to use that kind of damn-near-invisible-characters-image I'm
>  going to print out 10,000 pages of them on plywood sheeds and make him eat
>  them while I beat him to death with my monitor!
>
>  Can you tell I'm more than just casually frustrated here?  Good!
>
>  WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE FIX THE DAMNED CAPTCHAS ON FMS?!?
>
>  The preceeding was written while frustrated and angry and then posted
>  anyway to make a point.
>
>  - --
>  My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
>  SSK at TEx6TiaPeszpV4AFw3ToutDb49EPAgM/mytwocents/62//m2ckey.html
>  (*NOTE* you must be running freenet for this link to be usefull)
>  and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
>  Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
>  I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
>  Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
>  Frost: MyTwoCents at Z+59LNK9NhMvxewYggENU4Ww50s On the 0.5 Freenet board
>
>  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>  Version: N/A
>
>  iQA/AwUBSCDgbJ5/ZUtfDwnNEQL29wCfW8gK6/+WA3h7bqnKxeIdzQ30GAcAn2ja
>  DbIHNfhKs12uZq8FvGYc340y
>  =l+8j
>  -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>  ___
>  Support mailing list
>  Support at freenetproject.org
>  http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
>  Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
>  Or mailto:support-request at freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
>



-- 
Though I know that I know nothing.

Re: [freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-06 Thread Evan Daniel 
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:39 PM, MyTwoCents <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  I was going to just post this on my flog (which I did) but decided that
>  since I've no idea if any devs read it, I want to be certain that it gets
>  SOME actual notice by developer types and thus posted it here also
>
>  I've been taking a bit of time lately to check in on 0.7 again and have
>  been trying out FMS.  I have to say that while the idea is a good one, has
>  a few things that need to be addressed. Specifically the process of
>  announcing new identities has problems.
>
>  1) The capcha images themselves have absolutely GOT to be changed.
>  Because: "You must have at least 1 identity created and have received the
>  SSK keypair for it from Freenet before setting trust.", I cannot post
>  messages yet, I have been able to read a few, including one:
>
>  Subject: Re: current CAPTCHAs suck
>  From: The [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  Date: Thu, 01 May 08 21:31:52 -
>  Message-ID:
>  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  V2Gd4>
>
>  That expresses the opinion that the captchas are more likely to be solved
>  by a program than a human.
>
>  Having spent a few hours trying in vain to read the damn things, I have to
>  say that I wouldn't be surprized if that were true.  Of course, I also
>  think that they were specifically designed to make life difficult for
>  people with vision impairments.
>
>  The images need to be something that an actual human will have little to no
>  trouble reading them. Unfortunately, the graphic abortions that are in use
>  now are apparently impossible for me to read, since I've been "solving"
>  (not that I know if they're 'solved' or just wrong.) them for the better
>  part of a week now and have yet to get my identity announced.
>
>  Which brings me to #2.
>
>  How about some feedback?
>
>  Specifically, when I "solve" a captcha, how about telling me if I got it
>  right or not?  My thought, present captchas one at a time.  Allow user to
>  fill in and submit.  If incorrect, TELL THE USER!!!, then present them with
>  a new one.  If it's correct, again TELL THE USER!!! then present them with
>  a new one.
>
>  This business of sitting here going nearly blind trying to read faint,
>  almost invisible characters is bad enough, not even knowing if I actually
>  got one right is liable to make somebody homicidal.  There's absolutely
>  ZERO reason for this to be a fargin guessing game!
>
>  Frankly, if I ever get my hands on the
>  absolute-brain-dead-moron-studying-to-be-an-idiot-and-failing-miserably
>  that decided to use that kind of damn-near-invisible-characters-image I'm
>  going to print out 10,000 pages of them on plywood sheeds and make him eat
>  them while I beat him to death with my monitor!
>
>  Can you tell I'm more than just casually frustrated here?  Good!
>
>  WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE FIX THE DAMNED CAPTCHAS ON FMS?!?
>
>  The preceeding was written while frustrated and angry and then posted
>  anyway to make a point.
>
>  - --
>  My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]/mytwocents/62//m2ckey.html
>  (*NOTE* you must be running freenet for this link to be usefull)
>  and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
>  Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
>  I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
>  Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
>  Frost: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the 0.5 Freenet board
>
>  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>  Version: N/A
>
>  iQA/AwUBSCDgbJ5/ZUtfDwnNEQL29wCfW8gK6/+WA3h7bqnKxeIdzQ30GAcAn2ja
>  DbIHNfhKs12uZq8FvGYc340y
>  =l+8j
>  -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>  ___
>  Support mailing list
>  Support@freenetproject.org
>  http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support
>  Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support
>  Or mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>

I tried to read your flog but couldn't; your SSK is malformed.

There are ways other than captchas to announce yourself.  If I knew
what your identity was I'd be happy to add it, as you're obviously
human.

You could post a patch with better captchas.  As the initiator of the
thread you referenced, I would be in favor.  I've got some code I'm
playing with, but it's not there yet.  Working on other people's code
always feels more like work than fun, and the same is true of C++, so
it probably won't get posted for a while yet.

In the meantime I've modified the FMS source so that my node will post
easier versions of the same captchas.  If this creates a spam problem,
I apologize; somebody tell me if I'm announcing all the spammers and
don't notice :D

I won't post the changes I made.  They're trivial and anyone else can
make similar ones, and besides having more variety is probably not a
bad thing.  I encourage people to do the same, provided they're
willing to pay attention in case they end up announcing spammers.

Evan Daniel
__

[freenet-support] FMS Woes

2008-05-06 Thread MyTwoCents 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I was going to just post this on my flog (which I did) but decided that
since I've no idea if any devs read it, I want to be certain that it gets
SOME actual notice by developer types and thus posted it here also

I've been taking a bit of time lately to check in on 0.7 again and have
been trying out FMS.  I have to say that while the idea is a good one, has
a few things that need to be addressed. Specifically the process of
announcing new identities has problems.

1) The capcha images themselves have absolutely GOT to be changed.
Because: "You must have at least 1 identity created and have received the
SSK keypair for it from Freenet before setting trust.", I cannot post
messages yet, I have been able to read a few, including one:

Subject: Re: current CAPTCHAs suck
From: The [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 01 May 08 21:31:52 -
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
V2Gd4>

That expresses the opinion that the captchas are more likely to be solved
by a program than a human.

Having spent a few hours trying in vain to read the damn things, I have to
say that I wouldn't be surprized if that were true.  Of course, I also
think that they were specifically designed to make life difficult for
people with vision impairments.

The images need to be something that an actual human will have little to no
trouble reading them. Unfortunately, the graphic abortions that are in use
now are apparently impossible for me to read, since I've been "solving"
(not that I know if they're 'solved' or just wrong.) them for the better
part of a week now and have yet to get my identity announced.

Which brings me to #2.

How about some feedback?

Specifically, when I "solve" a captcha, how about telling me if I got it
right or not?  My thought, present captchas one at a time.  Allow user to
fill in and submit.  If incorrect, TELL THE USER!!!, then present them with
a new one.  If it's correct, again TELL THE USER!!! then present them with
a new one.

This business of sitting here going nearly blind trying to read faint,
almost invisible characters is bad enough, not even knowing if I actually
got one right is liable to make somebody homicidal.  There's absolutely
ZERO reason for this to be a fargin guessing game!

Frankly, if I ever get my hands on the
absolute-brain-dead-moron-studying-to-be-an-idiot-and-failing-miserably
that decided to use that kind of damn-near-invisible-characters-image I'm
going to print out 10,000 pages of them on plywood sheeds and make him eat
them while I beat him to death with my monitor!

Can you tell I'm more than just casually frustrated here?  Good!

WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE FIX THE DAMNED CAPTCHAS ON FMS?!?

The preceeding was written while frustrated and angry and then posted
anyway to make a point.

- -- 
My public keys can be found on my freenet site:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/mytwocents/62//m2ckey.html
(*NOTE* you must be running freenet for this link to be usefull)
and on public keyservers. Key-Id: 0x92769D7E
Fingerprint: 2F07D586C8D4EEA732711338CFEF46E592769D7E
I can be reached either by the NiM form on the freesite or by
Email: m2c AT nym.panta-rhei.eu.org
Frost: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the 0.5 Freenet board

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