[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Australia puts off imposing cap on ethanol in fuel
Mark Matthews is trying to set things straight with the film he's making. It's confused, and confused further by allegations of buddy deals at the top level, so the journalists smell a scandal and ethanol's taking collateral damage. The Sydney Morning Herald yarn I posted about a week back put it in the same bracket as contaminated petrol and unscrupulous operators, with scary stuff about suppressed reports of engine damage. This current story's a bit saner: While no one claimed 10 percent ethanol blends have an adverse impact on engines, early testing with one type of marine two-stroke engine found stalling may occur when the throttle is opened from low speed, even with a 10 percent blend, creating a possible safety hazard, Kemp said. I think you tried to answer my question, but I still have it. I need to ask again because there's something very specific I'm after here. In the above paragraph, I think the issue gets confused away from what I and others are thinking or asking. The allegation in the above paragraph is that even below 10% or near it, there is still a danger to engines. But this isn't the brunt of the debate that I recall reading here over the last few months. From what I've seen of my own engine and others' experiences, there really isn't that much question that a modest 10%-ish-or-under blend of ethanol doesn't do any sort of damage (though I suppose I would keep an open mind if someone wanted to tell me otherwise). The brunt of the debate is what for me continues to be an open question: is there anything to the idea that limiting things to something like 10%, in keeping with what some auto manufacturers appear to have claimed, would in fact be the right way to go, especially for what appears to be a nascient effort that could suffer some severe damage if there really does occur any damage to engines from using somewhat higher percentages. If I'm not mistaken there was at least one person in Australia who is involved with the scene there who took roughly this position ..., that the big (ADM-ish) ethanol producer was pressuring politically for an ethanol policy that in the end would not be good for everyone. I had a car (89 Saab Turbo) which I do recall saying something in the manual about 10 or 12 or 13 percent ethanol and-or MTBE mixtures being within warranty. I don't recall the exact numbers. While I am not likely to become an expert on ethanol by going to some of the pages you suggest, I would like to nail down the basic question here of whether somewhat higher percentages can bring about somewhat different issues for motorists. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Australia puts off imposing cap on ethanol in fuel
A complete report covering all of the applications of ethanol in gasoline, in new and used engines: ERDC Project No 2511 Intensive Field Trial of Ethanol/Petrol Blend in Vehicles. This trial showed no harm to any engines, and documented the benefits. This is the Executive Summary, compliments of Apace Research Ltd -- 10 pages, 32kb Acrobat file. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthanolApace.PDF Addendum: I went and looked at this after posting, as I felt remiss in not examining it first. It seems to make a good case for the benefits of ethanol at a 10% anhydrous blend and does some to address the allegations of negative effects on machinery. It does little to address what I said in my other post appears to be the brunt of the allegation, which is that since some are mixing in a blend much in excess of the much-researched 10% figure, this is causing a lot of damage to machinery. To go back to what it does address, it mentions that they found, under materials compatability and engine wear that there are no discerniable effects, no increased engine wear, etc., of using such a blend as against a regular petrol blend. As it might be useful (God I hate doing this; I hate the uncopy-pastability of .pdf format), I will quote directly (manually transcribing, sacrificing fingers for the cause): Begin quote: - [...] The results of this project for the 1999 fleet composition show that, when compared to use of neat petrol, use of 10% v/v ethanol/petrol blend has the following effects: [...] [...] -- Materials Compatibility: -- there is no discernible effect on any plastic or elastomer materials; and, -- there is no discernible corrosion in fuel wetted metal parts such as fuel tanks, lines, pressure regulators, etc. -- Engine Wear: -- there is no additional or unusual wear to that normally expected; and, -- there is no additional increase in wear metals or decrease in total base number (TBN) of the lubcricating oil. [...] End quote Now, there are some other passages which do give perhaps some further insight on the issues, and I am just not willing to transcribe more. For example, there is the issue of older vehicles being more prone to phase separation and other water issues, as well as some health concerns for emissions. There is also some mention of other blends, including a hydrous blend, and a Brazil-ish 22% blend (which sounds almost like what some Australians are getting whether they want it or not). But, anyway, the basic issue is left unadressed, and it just sounds like, going back over the last couple of months, this whole thing amounts to a good effort (introducing a goodly amount of ethanol use nationwide for Australia) is being hurt by a campaign to introduce it in an overly aggressive and somewhat technologically irresponsible way which might theoretically result in enough of a black eye to provide a very serious setback. If I'm wrong, then I'm sorry for spreading what you or others might consider to be false information, but I'd like to do a better job of figuring out the issues on this. Australia, as I've said, is not insignificant in its alternative energy efforts. Although I don't have a sense of their overall fuel and energy use, this seems to me to be a very important project for them, to introduce such a high amount of ethanol to such a significant country's fuel mix, (they sure must travel a lot of passenger miles between some of their destinations!), and I think if we take some extra time to hammer out what the issues are for them, then those of us who are interested to do so can decide what we think is the right course of action for them and (just by writing our opinions) perhaps influence their projects and others. MM Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuels-biz] UK Co-Operatives
Martin Presently a lot of research and development with vegetable oil fuels mainly SVO systems. Also biofuel promotion, lobbying and consultation. See www.vegburner.co.uk Darren -Original Message- From: martin.brook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2002 08:41 To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] UK Co-Operatives Very helpfull thankyou. What does vegburner do? Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] City of Oakland holding a meeting aimed supporting local commercial biodiesel production
One would think that the Former Gov Brown would be all over this!! Great media opportunity also. ;-) On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Kenneth Kron wrote: Just thought I'd update the list. I've been working with with the sustainable development person in the planning department in Oakland, Carol Misseldine. Oakland is starting to understand what biodiesel is and is turning the beauracracy around to support it. No date for the meeting yet, the attendees include: city, business and community representatives. The current agenda is: KEY AGENDA ITEMS FOR A BIODIESEL MEETING IN OAKLAND Drafted by Carol Misseldine, Oakland Sustainable Development Initiative, 12/12/02 *1) What quantities of the following feedstocks are realistically available for biodiesel in Oakland?* Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO):// //Municipal Waste Stream: *2) Is biodiesel a realistic solution or partial solution for Oakland's air quality problems?* 3) How much of Oakland's diesel needs could be met with the above sources, including Oakland's City Fleet, Port trucks, public transit? 4) What are the economic and siting barriers and opportunities for local manufacture and distribution of biodiesel? *5) What are the emissions issues related to a biodiesel manufacturing facility?* *6) What are the zoning requirements for a biodiesel manufacturing facility?* /Catherine Payne, CEDA/ *7) What is the status of CARB's intent to rank biodiesel as an alternative fuel?* /Randall von Wedel/ *8) Other* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Australia puts off imposing cap on ethanol in fuel
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:39:05 +0100 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Australia puts off imposing cap on ethanol in fuel Australia is a significant country, but it is smaller than Brazil and if I am not totally wrong a population less than 10% of that of US. I think it is one of the least populated countries in the world. Having this in mind, it is still a very important country and they have very large incentives to reduce their dependence of fossil fuels. They, if anyone, have the capacity to go biofuel all around and fast. To maintain the independence and sovereignty of Australia should be in the best interest of the Australians and solving energy supply problems is an important and urgent matter for the whole world. Few countries, if any, have such good prospects as Australia. It is maybe one of the very few countries that could maintain an isolationistic policy to the rest of the world. US for sure not, they have to continue to pillage the world resources. Many say that they support the terrorist, by paying low price for their pillage, but the truth is that they themselves creates them. The policies and attitudes are controversy but necessary, to maintain the American style of life, carefully guarded by the Americans and called the greatest democracy on earth. Why I mention US, is because it is their oil interests that operate in the Australian environment. It would be utterly irresponsible if Australia do not take the important and necessary steps to be energy independent. Scaremongers tactics who use up to 80 years old American arguments, that was already incorrect then, is an insult to the Australian people. Hearing about this kind of tactics, like advertising ethanol free gasoline etc. makes me mad, this especially when ethanol is needed to replace MTBE and this is in full implementation in US. To make it clear, I like Americans and America very much, but their corporate/government foreign policies smells. Bophal is maybe the worst case, but not uncommon on smaller scale. Hakan At 02:51 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: A complete report covering all of the applications of ethanol in gasoline, in new and used engines: ERDC Project No 2511 Intensive Field Trial of Ethanol/Petrol Blend in Vehicles. This trial showed no harm to any engines, and documented the benefits. This is the Executive Summary, compliments of Apace Research Ltd -- 10 pages, 32kb Acrobat file. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthanolApace.PDF Addendum: I went and looked at this after posting, as I felt remiss in not examining it first. It seems to make a good case for the benefits of ethanol at a 10% anhydrous blend and does some to address the allegations of negative effects on machinery. It does little to address what I said in my other post appears to be the brunt of the allegation, which is that since some are mixing in a blend much in excess of the much-researched 10% figure, this is causing a lot of damage to machinery. To go back to what it does address, it mentions that they found, under materials compatability and engine wear that there are no discerniable effects, no increased engine wear, etc., of using such a blend as against a regular petrol blend. As it might be useful (God I hate doing this; I hate the uncopy-pastability of .pdf format), I will quote directly (manually transcribing, sacrificing fingers for the cause): Begin quote: - [...] The results of this project for the 1999 fleet composition show that, when compared to use of neat petrol, use of 10% v/v ethanol/petrol blend has the following effects: [...] [...] -- Materials Compatibility: -- there is no discernible effect on any plastic or elastomer materials; and, -- there is no discernible corrosion in fuel wetted metal parts such as fuel tanks, lines, pressure regulators, etc. -- Engine Wear: -- there is no additional or unusual wear to that normally expected; and, -- there is no additional increase in wear metals or decrease in total base number (TBN) of the lubcricating oil. [...] End quote Now, there are some other passages which do give perhaps some further insight on the issues, and I am just not willing to transcribe more. For example, there is the issue of older vehicles being more prone to phase separation and other water issues, as well as some health concerns for emissions. There is also some mention of other blends, including a hydrous blend, and a Brazil-ish 22% blend (which sounds almost like what some Australians are getting whether they want it or not). But, anyway, the basic issue is left unadressed, and it just sounds like, going back over the last couple of months, this whole thing amounts to a good effort (introducing a goodly amount of ethanol use nationwide for
[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Australia puts off imposing cap on ethanol in fuel
MM wrote: Mark Matthews is trying to set things straight with the film he's making. It's confused, and confused further by allegations of buddy deals at the top level, so the journalists smell a scandal and ethanol's taking collateral damage. It's not just the journalists, more important it's also the political opposition: The Howard government has not just failed to act, they've deliberately decided not to act. They've made conscious, continuing decisions, including today, to refuse to act because they're putting vested interests ahead of the national interest. - Labor's treasury spokesman Bob McMullan http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/12/17/1039656387005.html Ethanol may damage cars It's in the national interest, you see, to continue depending on imported oil and not to use homegrown biofuels - NOT! And mainly the big foreign oil companies, and the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries (FCAI), which is probably in the oil companies' camp, and lesser players. How about this? Another thing here with ethanol which people aren't aware of is that it actually attracts water and motor vehicles and water just do not go together - the cars will just stop cold, he said. (Royal Automobile Club of Victoria) http://www.abc.net.au/news/regionals/vic/regvic-18dec2002-11.htm ABC News - Ethanol, petrol debate flares Stop cold, eh? RACV's gone on a sort of anti-ethanol witchhunt to protect drivers. The Sydney Morning Herald yarn I posted about a week back put it in the same bracket as contaminated petrol and unscrupulous operators, with scary stuff about suppressed reports of engine damage. This current story's a bit saner: While no one claimed 10 percent ethanol blends have an adverse impact on engines, early testing with one type of marine two-stroke engine found stalling may occur when the throttle is opened from low speed, even with a 10 percent blend, creating a possible safety hazard, Kemp said. I think you tried to answer my question, but I still have it. I need to ask again because there's something very specific I'm after here. In the above paragraph, I think the issue gets confused away from what I and others are thinking or asking. The allegation in the above paragraph is that even below 10% or near it, there is still a danger to engines. Obviously that's what they're trying to infer - they'd love to say it wrecks your motor but it seems this is the best they can do, rather lame, an alleged safety hazard for the user, not the engine, in a marine situation, not on the road. What's early testing? Was there any later testing? Is it the case or not? Maybe they think blowing up an alleged political scandal and yelling vested interests is as effective as blown-up engines. And maybe it is. Again, Mike Jureidini said this: Following some pretty serious scaremongering over the past few months, the oil companies have launched an intense campaign at the service station level to denigrate the use of ethanol in the Greater Sydney/Wollongong Basin. The tactics being employed are similar to those used by the oil majors in the U.S.over twenty years ago. Currently BP, Shell, Caltex and Woolworth's are running no ethanol in our petrol type ads at badged service stations. That fits. Mike is the Biofuels Consultant for SAFF and South Australia Coordinator for the Biodiesel Association of Australia. The Australian Biofuels Association in Canberra (more or less Australia's equivalent of the NBB) issued this comment in March this year: http://www.australianbiofuelsassociation.org.au/WantToKnow/PDFs/COMMEN T%20EAISSUESPAPER.pdf Comment - Setting An Ethanol Limit In Petrol Environment Australia released an Issues Paper in January 2001, titled Setting the Ethanol Limit in Petrol. The issues paper is based on a policy recommendation put to the Government by Environment Australia to limit ethanol blends with petrol to 10% under the Fuel Quality Standards Act 2000. The Environment Australia position was strongly supported by the major foreign owned oil companies that dominate the Australian transport fuel market. The Association vigorously opposed setting a cap on fuel ethanol in the transport fuel market. ABA opposition to the 10% limit was based on the following grounds: * No other fuels in the Australian transport fuel market have had regulatory limits imposed on their access that market. No limits are imposed on petrol or diesel fuels, or on fossil alternative fuels such as CNG and LPG. * A 10% cap on ethanol, and possibly at a later date on biodiesel, thus represents a preferential and uncompetitive market entry barrier to renewable alternative fuels in the Australian transport fuel market. * A 10% limit on ethanol ignores the demonstrated wide flexibility that ethanol, and advances in automotive technologies, offer for the use of a range of blends of domestically produced biofuels in Australia and internationally. * The limit enhances the
RE: [biofuels-biz] UK Co-Operatives
I will post a detailed email about how our Berkeley biodiesel coop is organized, but it'll take me a few days to write it up. I get requests for this info a lot. Mark At 12:32 PM 12/19/2002 +, you wrote: Martin Presently a lot of research and development with vegetable oil fuels mainly SVO systems. Also biofuel promotion, lobbying and consultation. See www.vegburner.co.uk Darren -Original Message- From: martin.brook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2002 08:41 To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] UK Co-Operatives Very helpfull thankyou. What does vegburner do? Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Australia puts off imposing cap on ethanol in fuel
While no one claimed 10 percent ethanol blends have an adverse impact on engines, early testing with one type of marine two-stroke engine found stalling may occur when the throttle is opened from low speed, even with a 10 percent blend, creating a possible safety hazard, Kemp said. I think that Kemp have a great sense of humor and I am sure that he is not going let this two-stroke engine have the same consequences as the Ottomans gun ship in WWI and sink the Australian empire as excuse. LOL! Hakan Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Australia puts off imposing cap on ethanol in fuel
It would be utterly irresponsible if Australia do not take the important and necessary steps to be energy independent. Scaremongers tactics who use up to 80 years old American arguments, that was already incorrect then, is an insult to the Australian people. Hearing about this kind of tactics, like advertising ethanol free gasoline etc. makes me mad, this especially when ethanol is needed to replace MTBE and this is in full implementation in US. Right. Fine. But the problem here is that you and I and Keith are hearing different things coming out of Australia, as to the tactics that are being employed. While I've heard a bit of the scaremongering, as with any good lie, they are mixing enough truth or near-truth to it to make it effective. So, I am trying to get at what is the effective part of this lie in order to better address it. MM Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] (fwd) re: Price of BD
I received this private email from someone who is in the industry and apparently is following the price of BD discussion and did some research on the matter. I think others might be interested in their attempts to research this. It isn't clear to me from their private email if they were sending it privately because they did not understand procedures of public posting or because they were trying to be discreet. But, as I am not a big participant in the price-of-BD discussion, I think it might be the former. So, I am posting their comments (private information excluded), and then I will show this to them privately as an example of posting. MM On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 04:34:34 +, wrote: Dear Mr. Murdoch, I searched high and low for the FOB price of biodiesel and nobody can really tell me the average price. They all said it depends. The US$1.50 price could be a reasonable FOB price for waste oil BD. If you can land it at $2.85, it may not be too bad when you add all the costs in freights and handling. ... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/.ZSp6B/dlOFAA/46VHAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] UK Co-Operatives
Thankyou, much appreciated. - Original Message - From: girl mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:27 PM Subject: RE: [biofuels-biz] UK Co-Operatives I will post a detailed email about how our Berkeley biodiesel coop is organized, but it'll take me a few days to write it up. I get requests for this info a lot. Mark At 12:32 PM 12/19/2002 +, you wrote: Martin Presently a lot of research and development with vegetable oil fuels mainly SVO systems. Also biofuel promotion, lobbying and consultation. See www.vegburner.co.uk Darren -Original Message- From: martin.brook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 December 2002 08:41 To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] UK Co-Operatives Very helpfull thankyou. What does vegburner do? Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Fwd: Special Alert -- Don't Delay! Register Now for the Biodiesel Research and Brainstorming Workshop
From: National Biodiesel Board [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: newsletter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Special Alert -- Don't Delay! Register Now for the Biodiesel Research and Brainstorming Workshop Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:48:03 -0600 Special Alert÷Donât Delay! Register Now for the Biodiesel Research and Brainstorming Workshop If youâre interested in learning about the latest biodiesel research and technical data from North Americaâs leading experts, register now for the Biodiesel Research and Brainstorming Workshop, January 29-30,2003, in New Orleans. Sponsored by the National Biodiesel Board (NBB), the US Department of Energy, and the US Department of Agriculture, the workshop is a must for biodiesel researchers and technical personnel, biodiesel fuel suppliers, engine and fuel injection equipment manufacturers, government agencies interested in funding biodiesel research and development, and other stakeholders. While the final agenda and speakers will remain flexible to help ensure the latest and best information is shared, the sessions planned for this yearâs workshop include: - Recent advancements in improving biodiesel cold flow properties - New biodiesel stability test methods and data - Biodiesel standards with ASTM, the military and the government - User experience (military, parks, schools, EPACT fleets, government agencies) - Biodiesel emissions data (US EPA, CARB, heating oil) - New engine technology and biodiesel NOx strategies - Engine data and updates (1000 hour life test results, Original Equipment Manufacturer input) ãThe sessions we are planning for this yearâs workshop are substantial and are designed to maximize the sharing of technical information and practical experience among participants,ä said Steve Howell, NBB technical director. ãOur relationship with the engine and fuel injection equipment community has really grown during the last year, and we anticipate each major engine and FIE company will send representatives. This is an area that the industry made a priority during last yearâs session.ä If the overwhelming interest in last yearâs brainstorming workshop is any indicator, those wanting to attend should sign up soon due to a limited number of registrations. The deadline for the special discount rate of $139 a night at the beautiful Royal Sonesta Hotel on Bourbon Street in New Orleans is January 10. For more information and to register online, visit www.biodiesel.org. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] [news]: No beer for Christmas in Venezuela
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyncid=586e=1cid=586u=/nm/20021219/wl_nm/venezuela_dc Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] [news]: No beer for Christmas in Venezuela
ooops, meant to post the text as well http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyncid=586e=1cid=586u=/nm/20021219/wl_nm/venezuela_dc World - Reuters Venezuela Court Orders Oil Restart as Strike Bites 1 hour, 7 minutes ago Add World - Reuters to My Yahoo! By Patrick Markey CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela's Supreme Court on Friday ordered the temporary resumption of oil operations closed by an opposition strike against President Hugo Chavez that has rattled markets and caused gasoline shortages in the world's No. 5 petroleum exporter. Reuters Photo Reuters Slideshow: Venezuela Anti-Chavez Protesters Take to the Streets (AP Video) Nearly three weeks into the strike, lines of several hundred cars and trucks formed outside some gasoline stations. Others were deserted, posting No Gas signs, as incredulous Venezuelans faced the prospect of empty gas tanks. The ruling applies until the nation's highest court makes a final decision on the legality of the 18-day-old oil industry shutdown launched by the president's foes to force him to resign. It was not clear when that decision would be made. Strike leaders, who have vowed to maintain the stoppage until the president steps down and calls early elections, said they were examining the decision. But they were clearly angry. This is just more pressure and I think it will lead to more confrontation, said one dissident executive at the state oil firm PDVSA, who asked not to be identified. The court ordered PDVSA officials to obey government instructions to guarantee operations in the oil sector that have been virtually shut down by the strike. Government officials swiftly welcomed the ruling. The ruling is very clear. They have to return to work. If they don't they face severe sanctions, Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel told Reuters. We hope that they recognize the decision of the Supreme Court. Strikers who disregard the court ruling could face jail for contempt. Chavez has vowed to fight the strike, using the armed forces where necessary. With Venezuela's oil output now down to less than 300,000 barrels per day from 3.1 million bpd in November, the stoppage is costing millions of dollars a day, strangling the lifeblood of an economy already in steep recession. Oil prices hit their highest level in two years on Thursday on deepening supply shock from Venezuela while Washington readied for war against Iraq. CRUNCH FROM GASOLINE, FOOD SHORTAGES Chavez, who was elected in 1998 and survived a coup in April, has dismissed opposition calls for an early vote. The populist president, who claims most Venezuelans back his left-wing reforms to ease poverty, says the constitution only allows a referendum on his mandate in August. Struggling to restart oil exports, Chavez has sacked dissident oil executives leading the strike and has sent troops to take over idled state-run tankers, refineries and ports. The government has also authorized the military to commandeer ships, trucks and planes to keep supplies moving. But shortages were already being felt, triggering a rush to gas stations around the country. At one Caracas station, drivers had slept overnight in their cars to secure a place in line. National Guard troops and police broke up quarrels between motorists as tensions flared over the dwindling gas supplies. With less than a week to go before Christmas, shoppers packed supermarkets in Caracas to buy up thinning stocks of some basic goods and customers lined the streets outside banks, which are operating only during limited hours. People are buying nervously. Some supplies got to us today, but we have no corn flour, wheat flour, soft drinks and other basic products, said one Caracas supermarket chain manager. If there is no gas this will get critical. But with even beer supplies drying up in South America's largest consumer of lager and ales, many are preparing for a bleak Christmas. National sports events have been canceled and television channels have been cluttered with constant political news coverage. We can't get beer anywhere, said Ernesto Otero, a manager of a Caracas bar. With no baseball, no drink, no horse-racing, no television and no football ... people are going to protest when there is no alcohol, even more than about oil. Venezuela has been gripped by political conflict since April's coup as the opposition stepped up a campaign of street protests. His foes accuse the fiery, outspoken Venezuelan leader of ruining the economy, stirring class warfare and imposing a communist dictatorship in the Andean nation. Chavez has accused the opposition, an alliance of business groups, unions and civic associations backed mainly by the middle and upper class, of trying to destroy his self-styled revolution in favor the nation's impoverished majority. (Additional reporting by Silene Ramirez, Ana Isabel Martinez, Ibon Villelabeitia) Biofuels at Journey to Forever http
Re: [biofuel] Australia puts off imposing cap on ethanol in fuel
Mark Matthews is trying to set things straight with the film he's making. It's confused, and confused further by allegations of buddy deals at the top level, so the journalists smell a scandal and ethanol's taking collateral damage. The Sydney Morning Herald yarn I posted about a week back put it in the same bracket as contaminated petrol and unscrupulous operators, with scary stuff about suppressed reports of engine damage. This current story's a bit saner: While no one claimed 10 percent ethanol blends have an adverse impact on engines, early testing with one type of marine two-stroke engine found stalling may occur when the throttle is opened from low speed, even with a 10 percent blend, creating a possible safety hazard, Kemp said. I think you tried to answer my question, but I still have it. I need to ask again because there's something very specific I'm after here. In the above paragraph, I think the issue gets confused away from what I and others are thinking or asking. The allegation in the above paragraph is that even below 10% or near it, there is still a danger to engines. But this isn't the brunt of the debate that I recall reading here over the last few months. From what I've seen of my own engine and others' experiences, there really isn't that much question that a modest 10%-ish-or-under blend of ethanol doesn't do any sort of damage (though I suppose I would keep an open mind if someone wanted to tell me otherwise). The brunt of the debate is what for me continues to be an open question: is there anything to the idea that limiting things to something like 10%, in keeping with what some auto manufacturers appear to have claimed, would in fact be the right way to go, especially for what appears to be a nascient effort that could suffer some severe damage if there really does occur any damage to engines from using somewhat higher percentages. If I'm not mistaken there was at least one person in Australia who is involved with the scene there who took roughly this position ..., that the big (ADM-ish) ethanol producer was pressuring politically for an ethanol policy that in the end would not be good for everyone. I had a car (89 Saab Turbo) which I do recall saying something in the manual about 10 or 12 or 13 percent ethanol and-or MTBE mixtures being within warranty. I don't recall the exact numbers. While I am not likely to become an expert on ethanol by going to some of the pages you suggest, I would like to nail down the basic question here of whether somewhat higher percentages can bring about somewhat different issues for motorists. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Australia puts off imposing cap on ethanol in fuel
A complete report covering all of the applications of ethanol in gasoline, in new and used engines: ERDC Project No 2511 Intensive Field Trial of Ethanol/Petrol Blend in Vehicles. This trial showed no harm to any engines, and documented the benefits. This is the Executive Summary, compliments of Apace Research Ltd -- 10 pages, 32kb Acrobat file. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthanolApace.PDF Addendum: I went and looked at this after posting, as I felt remiss in not examining it first. It seems to make a good case for the benefits of ethanol at a 10% anhydrous blend and does some to address the allegations of negative effects on machinery. It does little to address what I said in my other post appears to be the brunt of the allegation, which is that since some are mixing in a blend much in excess of the much-researched 10% figure, this is causing a lot of damage to machinery. To go back to what it does address, it mentions that they found, under materials compatability and engine wear that there are no discerniable effects, no increased engine wear, etc., of using such a blend as against a regular petrol blend. As it might be useful (God I hate doing this; I hate the uncopy-pastability of .pdf format), I will quote directly (manually transcribing, sacrificing fingers for the cause): Begin quote: - [...] The results of this project for the 1999 fleet composition show that, when compared to use of neat petrol, use of 10% v/v ethanol/petrol blend has the following effects: [...] [...] -- Materials Compatibility: -- there is no discernible effect on any plastic or elastomer materials; and, -- there is no discernible corrosion in fuel wetted metal parts such as fuel tanks, lines, pressure regulators, etc. -- Engine Wear: -- there is no additional or unusual wear to that normally expected; and, -- there is no additional increase in wear metals or decrease in total base number (TBN) of the lubcricating oil. [...] End quote Now, there are some other passages which do give perhaps some further insight on the issues, and I am just not willing to transcribe more. For example, there is the issue of older vehicles being more prone to phase separation and other water issues, as well as some health concerns for emissions. There is also some mention of other blends, including a hydrous blend, and a Brazil-ish 22% blend (which sounds almost like what some Australians are getting whether they want it or not). But, anyway, the basic issue is left unadressed, and it just sounds like, going back over the last couple of months, this whole thing amounts to a good effort (introducing a goodly amount of ethanol use nationwide for Australia) is being hurt by a campaign to introduce it in an overly aggressive and somewhat technologically irresponsible way which might theoretically result in enough of a black eye to provide a very serious setback. If I'm wrong, then I'm sorry for spreading what you or others might consider to be false information, but I'd like to do a better job of figuring out the issues on this. Australia, as I've said, is not insignificant in its alternative energy efforts. Although I don't have a sense of their overall fuel and energy use, this seems to me to be a very important project for them, to introduce such a high amount of ethanol to such a significant country's fuel mix, (they sure must travel a lot of passenger miles between some of their destinations!), and I think if we take some extra time to hammer out what the issues are for them, then those of us who are interested to do so can decide what we think is the right course of action for them and (just by writing our opinions) perhaps influence their projects and others. MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Time Magazine features Direct Liquid Ethanol Fuel Cells
For a while now I have had it in my mind that I should produce ethanol in my back yard from biomass. Make electricity from the ethanol. Then, use the electricity to power my home and sell the excess to the power company. Easy right. Any coments. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:41 AM Subject: [biofuel] Time Magazine features Direct Liquid Ethanol Fuel Cells The only fuel cells that have a future on the mass market are those that use liquid fuels - since storage is impractical for gaseous fuels like hydrogen methane. The only company that I know of that is developing Direct Liquid Fuel Cells is Medis Technologies in New York (http://www.medistechnologies.com), they are making a fuel cell for portable electronics that runs on ethanol without the need for a reformer to extract hydrogen or a proton exchange membrane. Ethanol is a renewable liquid fuel made by hydrolyzing and fermenting plant matter such as wheat straw, corn stalks, sugar cane, sugar beats, wood pulp sawdust, recycled newspapers cardboard, etc.. The great thing about Medis Technologies approach is that they have a product with mass market potential, so they can earn revenue while continuing to improve their technology. In contrast, while automotive manufacturers continue to tinker with useless hydrogen-based fuel cells, they have yet to sell a single fuel cell-powered vehicle. Now Time Magazine Europe has acknowledged Direct Liquid Ethanol Fuel Cell technology. http://www.time.com/time/europe/forecast2003/html/mobile.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Finding source for SVO
Hello Bruce You could check where is your local Vegetal Oil Refinery or the nearest Oilseed Crushing Mill and if they are during the harvest season of whatever oilseed they crush, you will have a good chance to get SVO directly from a tank of raw veg oil without the refinery cost. Please, use a fine filter before you load that stuff in your vehicle fuel tank or use it to make BioD. Regards Juan You wrote: Hi all. I'm getting ready to do a conversion on my '85 Golf and am wondering how to go about getting raw veggie oil in bulk. Down the road I'd like to use WVO, but I've heard about people having more problems with it than the newly pressed variety. I'm juust wondering what sort of places sell veggie oil in bulk? Restaurant supply houses? I'm just not sure where to start looking. A sidenote: I'm also checking out the feasibility of bio-diesel in South Africa (I have relatives there). Any ideas for how to find the market price for vegetable oil in S.A.? Thanks for your help. This group has impressed me by being very active and helpful. Bruce Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Australia puts off imposing cap on ethanol in fuel
Australia is a significant country, but it is smaller than Brazil and if I am not totally wrong a population less than 10% of that of US. I think it is one of the least populated countries in the world. Having this in mind, it is still a very important country and they have very large incentives to reduce their dependence of fossil fuels. They, if anyone, have the capacity to go biofuel all around and fast. To maintain the independence and sovereignty of Australia should be in the best interest of the Australians and solving energy supply problems is an important and urgent matter for the whole world. Few countries, if any, have such good prospects as Australia. It is maybe one of the very few countries that could maintain an isolationistic policy to the rest of the world. US for sure not, they have to continue to pillage the world resources. Many say that they support the terrorist, by paying low price for their pillage, but the truth is that they themselves creates them. The policies and attitudes are controversy but necessary, to maintain the American style of life, carefully guarded by the Americans and called the greatest democracy on earth. Why I mention US, is because it is their oil interests that operate in the Australian environment. It would be utterly irresponsible if Australia do not take the important and necessary steps to be energy independent. Scaremongers tactics who use up to 80 years old American arguments, that was already incorrect then, is an insult to the Australian people. Hearing about this kind of tactics, like advertising ethanol free gasoline etc. makes me mad, this especially when ethanol is needed to replace MTBE and this is in full implementation in US. To make it clear, I like Americans and America very much, but their corporate/government foreign policies smells. Bophal is maybe the worst case, but not uncommon on smaller scale. Hakan At 02:51 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: A complete report covering all of the applications of ethanol in gasoline, in new and used engines: ERDC Project No 2511 Intensive Field Trial of Ethanol/Petrol Blend in Vehicles. This trial showed no harm to any engines, and documented the benefits. This is the Executive Summary, compliments of Apace Research Ltd -- 10 pages, 32kb Acrobat file. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthanolApace.PDF Addendum: I went and looked at this after posting, as I felt remiss in not examining it first. It seems to make a good case for the benefits of ethanol at a 10% anhydrous blend and does some to address the allegations of negative effects on machinery. It does little to address what I said in my other post appears to be the brunt of the allegation, which is that since some are mixing in a blend much in excess of the much-researched 10% figure, this is causing a lot of damage to machinery. To go back to what it does address, it mentions that they found, under materials compatability and engine wear that there are no discerniable effects, no increased engine wear, etc., of using such a blend as against a regular petrol blend. As it might be useful (God I hate doing this; I hate the uncopy-pastability of .pdf format), I will quote directly (manually transcribing, sacrificing fingers for the cause): Begin quote: - [...] The results of this project for the 1999 fleet composition show that, when compared to use of neat petrol, use of 10% v/v ethanol/petrol blend has the following effects: [...] [...] -- Materials Compatibility: -- there is no discernible effect on any plastic or elastomer materials; and, -- there is no discernible corrosion in fuel wetted metal parts such as fuel tanks, lines, pressure regulators, etc. -- Engine Wear: -- there is no additional or unusual wear to that normally expected; and, -- there is no additional increase in wear metals or decrease in total base number (TBN) of the lubcricating oil. [...] End quote Now, there are some other passages which do give perhaps some further insight on the issues, and I am just not willing to transcribe more. For example, there is the issue of older vehicles being more prone to phase separation and other water issues, as well as some health concerns for emissions. There is also some mention of other blends, including a hydrous blend, and a Brazil-ish 22% blend (which sounds almost like what some Australians are getting whether they want it or not). But, anyway, the basic issue is left unadressed, and it just sounds like, going back over the last couple of months, this whole thing amounts to a good effort (introducing a goodly amount of ethanol use nationwide for Australia) is being hurt by a campaign to introduce it in an overly aggressive and somewhat technologically irresponsible way which might theoretically result in enough of a black eye to provide a very serious setback. If I'm wrong, then I'm sorry for
RE: [biofuel] Time Magazine features Direct Liquid Ethanol Fuel Cells
Cogeneration can help it pencil. Don't throw the heat away. download a copy of book MicroCogeneration here http://www.innerlodge.com/Energy/Micro_Cogeneration/ Kirk -Original Message- From: Mike Teresa Sundstrom [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:07 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Time Magazine features Direct Liquid Ethanol Fuel Cells For a while now I have had it in my mind that I should produce ethanol in my back yard from biomass. Make electricity from the ethanol. Then, use the electricity to power my home and sell the excess to the power company. Easy right. Any coments. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:41 AM Subject: [biofuel] Time Magazine features Direct Liquid Ethanol Fuel Cells The only fuel cells that have a future on the mass market are those that use liquid fuels - since storage is impractical for gaseous fuels like hydrogen methane. The only company that I know of that is developing Direct Liquid Fuel Cells is Medis Technologies in New York (http://www.medistechnologies.com), they are making a fuel cell for portable electronics that runs on ethanol without the need for a reformer to extract hydrogen or a proton exchange membrane. Ethanol is a renewable liquid fuel made by hydrolyzing and fermenting plant matter such as wheat straw, corn stalks, sugar cane, sugar beats, wood pulp sawdust, recycled newspapers cardboard, etc.. The great thing about Medis Technologies approach is that they have a product with mass market potential, so they can earn revenue while continuing to improve their technology. In contrast, while automotive manufacturers continue to tinker with useless hydrogen-based fuel cells, they have yet to sell a single fuel cell-powered vehicle. Now Time Magazine Europe has acknowledged Direct Liquid Ethanol Fuel Cell technology. http://www.time.com/time/europe/forecast2003/html/mobile.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.427 / Virus Database: 240 - Release Date: 12/6/2002 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Corporate enviros
Keith I apologize if I have insult you. Keith, I was not directing any of this venting towards you directly. All my working life I have worked for only big companies. Not by design, but that is just how it worked out. My working history has been in the maintenance area. I have worked from a repair mechanic position to plant engineering, and everything between.No body wants to poison the air or land that our grand children will be inheriting.Even though I am not an Environmental engineer, I have worked on the outer edges of some of the environmental issues. I have dealt directly with people with wild accusations, and I have become desensitized. I have dealt with some of the following: Chemical dumping into cemented over sewer drains. Disconnected smoke stacks pumping out to much smoke. Too much vibration city blocks away from the plant. All of the parking lot are covering chemical dumpsites, and must be dug-up. Using too much electricity because a personâs air conditioning was not working. And of course the famous the non-existing company helicopter is making to much noise. I have tried to honesty deal with the complaints, but most of the time. It is like talking to a wall. They know the company is doing something wrong. Most of them watch TV news media, and know how Big Companies are always doing something wrong. Why is being big, equals something bad. Big oil, big business, big government. I cannot speak for any company, but most are not as bad as you may perceive them to be. In the future I will finish reading before going off in a direction. Harley [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Finding source for SVO
Hi to all, I am looking for some-one in the states for purchase bulk vegetable oil, for export. Regards, Damian Dolan biofuel@yahoogroups.com wrote: Bruce, where are you located? If in the US you might want to get a hold of ADM as they sell both Soy and Corn oil, most likely in bulk. Check around online for some smaller producers that don't use GMO feedstock. Search engines are a wonderful tools . ;-) BTW, I was at Costco this weekend and noted the various (somewhat bulk) oil they have there, the corn and soy from ADM . James Slayden On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, bruce_leininger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all. I'm getting ready to do a conversion on my '85 Golf and am wondering how to go about getting raw veggie oil in bulk. Down the road I'd like to use WVO, but I've heard about people having more problems with it than the newly pressed variety. I'm juust wondering what sort of places sell veggie oil in bulk? Restaurant supply houses? I'm just not sure where to start looking. A sidenote: I'm also checking out the feasibility of bio-diesel in South Africa (I have relatives there). Any ideas for how to find the market price for vegetable oil in S.A.? Thanks for your help. This group has impressed me by being very active and helpful. Bruce Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: BD at $1.50/gallon
Thor from Arlington, Wa.: If you find yourself down here in Portland, Or., there is some availability of BD100 from used fryer oil at $1.80/gallon. Where? Donaldson's Marina (aka PacMar) on the Oregon side of the Columbia River Directions: South on I-5 into Oregon, exit Marine Dr., East on Marine to PacMar at around 37th. Walk to the end of the dock with your fuel can. Availability is sporadic, but this winter it's good so far since the boaters are mostly sitting still not buying any, so the marina has perhaps a couple hundred gallons right now. I've been able to purchase bulk B100 locally at a delivered cost of about $1.55/gallon for home heating ala oil furnace. myles twete, Portland Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Depends on where you get it The folks from San Luis Obispo indicated that they were paying $2.85gal from a local distributor. People who are members of the Berkley BD Co-op pay $1, non-members pay $2. I have heard pump prices ranging from ~$2.35 to $2.65. I suppose it depends on feedstock price, the manufactures cost, the distributors markup, so the mileage may vary. Also, remember that in Cali it is becoming a hip thing to be using BD so the price will increase with Envro-Yuppie status. ;-) (hrmm, designer BD?!!! My oil is organic and vegan . hehehehehehe). James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). Sorry Thor, I see that was an industry figure I checked, not a pump figure. But I think somebody has said they're buying commercial brew for $2. Somebody else quoted $1.75, but that was B20. Still, you're paying much less than most people in the world pay for their fuel. American fuel is much to cheap! Graham Noyes at World Energy never did tell their costings, but we did learn that last year they were offering producers $0.85 per gallon. So the retail price is +200%? I know you're going to tell me to start brewing my own--and you're right. No, I wouldn't say that, depends on your circumstances, and your preferences. But if you think I'd be right then I guess you'll get round it when you can. :-) But I am curious if you have info on regional pricing for biodiesel. Not offhand, I'll see if I come across anything. Even if one brews one's own, one should put a value on one's time and materials costs. I realize that there are many who don't put as high a value on division of labor as others, but I am just pointing this out. I do not assign a cost of zero to my own time or labor in doing things on my own that I'd rather consider paying someone else to do. Todd's done costings for a batch-processing set-up that includes everything, labour, rents, utilitities, insurance, maintenance and truck lease for collection, etc, for a 3,000 gpd facility generating 1,050,000 gallons a year, cost of production well under $0.60 a gallon. On a smaller scale, Chuck Ranum, for instance, seems to spend not more than a few seconds per gallon making his biodiesel. He tells the pump to add the methoxide, then he goes away, comes back later. Dale sits and watches if he wants to. Ian just switches it on and comes back every now and then, makes it once a month. Aleks and his pal Mat usually hang around but don't take much notice, get on with other things. The process itself and all its various steps might take time, but it needn't take you time. Once you set it up properly there's not that much to do. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Hey Keith, On that note, it would be great to pull together a table to get prices around the US/World for BD. Prices need to be verified by a scanned reciept or picture of the pump though. It would help people to decide if they want to buy or produce themselves based just on pump cost. James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). Sorry Thor, I see that was an industry figure I checked, not a pump figure. But I think somebody has said they're buying commercial brew for $2. Somebody else quoted $1.75, but that was B20. Still, you're paying much less than most people in the world pay for their fuel. American fuel is much to cheap! Graham Noyes at World Energy never did tell their costings, but we did learn that last year they were offering producers $0.85 per gallon. So the retail price is +200%? I know you're going to tell me to start brewing my own--and you're right. No, I wouldn't say that, depends on your circumstances, and your preferences. But if you think I'd be right then I guess you'll get round it when you can. :-) But I am curious if you have info on regional pricing for biodiesel. Not offhand, I'll see if I come across anything. Even if one brews one's own, one should put a value on one's time and materials costs. I realize that there are many who don't put as high a value on division of labor as others, but I am just pointing this out. I do not assign a cost of zero to my own time or labor in doing things on my own that I'd rather consider paying someone else to do. Todd's done costings for a batch-processing set-up that includes everything, labour, rents, utilitities, insurance, maintenance and truck lease for collection, etc, for a 3,000 gpd facility generating 1,050,000 gallons a year, cost of production well under $0.60 a gallon. On a smaller scale, Chuck Ranum, for instance, seems to spend not more than a few seconds per gallon making his biodiesel. He tells the pump to add the methoxide, then he goes away, comes back later. Dale sits and watches if he wants to. Ian just switches it on and comes back every now and then, makes it once a month. Aleks and his pal Mat usually hang around but don't take much notice, get on with other things. The process itself and all its various steps might take time, but it needn't take you time. Once you set it up properly there's not that much to do. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] engine coversion
hey, a guy Michael at the BD class indicated that he is going to replace his petrol engine in a Ford Ranger w/ a 4cyl diesel from a Lay's potato chip truck. That might work for your Samurai. Sorry, I don't have his email address. James Slayden On Wed, 18 Dec 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello i dont know how to convert the motor , but if you find out I would love to know . I have a samurai i would like to covert thanks ken r. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Hey Keith, On that note, it would be great to pull together a table to get prices around the US/World for BD. Prices need to be verified by a scanned reciept or picture of the pump though. It would help people to decide if they want to buy or produce themselves based just on pump cost. James Slayden Hi James Yes, that would be great, but a lot of research and a lot of constant maintenance keeping it up to date, and I'm not into doing it I'm afraid. If anyone else wants to I'd consider hosting it at Journey to Forever (though I'd still have to get involved in maintenance and updates). Sorry, not being reluctant, just being realistic (or trying to be). regards Keith On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). Sorry Thor, I see that was an industry figure I checked, not a pump figure. But I think somebody has said they're buying commercial brew for $2. Somebody else quoted $1.75, but that was B20. Still, you're paying much less than most people in the world pay for their fuel. American fuel is much to cheap! Graham Noyes at World Energy never did tell their costings, but we did learn that last year they were offering producers $0.85 per gallon. So the retail price is +200%? I know you're going to tell me to start brewing my own--and you're right. No, I wouldn't say that, depends on your circumstances, and your preferences. But if you think I'd be right then I guess you'll get round it when you can. :-) But I am curious if you have info on regional pricing for biodiesel. Not offhand, I'll see if I come across anything. Even if one brews one's own, one should put a value on one's time and materials costs. I realize that there are many who don't put as high a value on division of labor as others, but I am just pointing this out. I do not assign a cost of zero to my own time or labor in doing things on my own that I'd rather consider paying someone else to do. Todd's done costings for a batch-processing set-up that includes everything, labour, rents, utilitities, insurance, maintenance and truck lease for collection, etc, for a 3,000 gpd facility generating 1,050,000 gallons a year, cost of production well under $0.60 a gallon. On a smaller scale, Chuck Ranum, for instance, seems to spend not more than a few seconds per gallon making his biodiesel. He tells the pump to add the methoxide, then he goes away, comes back later. Dale sits and watches if he wants to. Ian just switches it on and comes back every now and then, makes it once a month. Aleks and his pal Mat usually hang around but don't take much notice, get on with other things. The process itself and all its various steps might take time, but it needn't take you time. Once you set it up properly there's not that much to do. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online-No late fees! Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/XfSp7B/XlOFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Australia puts off imposing cap on ethanol in fuel
MM wrote: Mark Matthews is trying to set things straight with the film he's making. It's confused, and confused further by allegations of buddy deals at the top level, so the journalists smell a scandal and ethanol's taking collateral damage. It's not just the journalists, more important it's also the political opposition: The Howard government has not just failed to act, they've deliberately decided not to act. They've made conscious, continuing decisions, including today, to refuse to act because they're putting vested interests ahead of the national interest. - Labor's treasury spokesman Bob McMullan http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/12/17/1039656387005.html Ethanol may damage cars It's in the national interest, you see, to continue depending on imported oil and not to use homegrown biofuels - NOT! And mainly the big foreign oil companies, and the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries (FCAI), which is probably in the oil companies' camp, and lesser players. How about this? Another thing here with ethanol which people aren't aware of is that it actually attracts water and motor vehicles and water just do not go together - the cars will just stop cold, he said. (Royal Automobile Club of Victoria) http://www.abc.net.au/news/regionals/vic/regvic-18dec2002-11.htm ABC News - Ethanol, petrol debate flares Stop cold, eh? RACV's gone on a sort of anti-ethanol witchhunt to protect drivers. The Sydney Morning Herald yarn I posted about a week back put it in the same bracket as contaminated petrol and unscrupulous operators, with scary stuff about suppressed reports of engine damage. This current story's a bit saner: While no one claimed 10 percent ethanol blends have an adverse impact on engines, early testing with one type of marine two-stroke engine found stalling may occur when the throttle is opened from low speed, even with a 10 percent blend, creating a possible safety hazard, Kemp said. I think you tried to answer my question, but I still have it. I need to ask again because there's something very specific I'm after here. In the above paragraph, I think the issue gets confused away from what I and others are thinking or asking. The allegation in the above paragraph is that even below 10% or near it, there is still a danger to engines. Obviously that's what they're trying to infer - they'd love to say it wrecks your motor but it seems this is the best they can do, rather lame, an alleged safety hazard for the user, not the engine, in a marine situation, not on the road. What's early testing? Was there any later testing? Is it the case or not? Maybe they think blowing up an alleged political scandal and yelling vested interests is as effective as blown-up engines. And maybe it is. Again, Mike Jureidini said this: Following some pretty serious scaremongering over the past few months, the oil companies have launched an intense campaign at the service station level to denigrate the use of ethanol in the Greater Sydney/Wollongong Basin. The tactics being employed are similar to those used by the oil majors in the U.S.over twenty years ago. Currently BP, Shell, Caltex and Woolworth's are running no ethanol in our petrol type ads at badged service stations. That fits. Mike is the Biofuels Consultant for SAFF and South Australia Coordinator for the Biodiesel Association of Australia. The Australian Biofuels Association in Canberra (more or less Australia's equivalent of the NBB) issued this comment in March this year: http://www.australianbiofuelsassociation.org.au/WantToKnow/PDFs/COMMEN T%20EAISSUESPAPER.pdf Comment - Setting An Ethanol Limit In Petrol Environment Australia released an Issues Paper in January 2001, titled Setting the Ethanol Limit in Petrol. The issues paper is based on a policy recommendation put to the Government by Environment Australia to limit ethanol blends with petrol to 10% under the Fuel Quality Standards Act 2000. The Environment Australia position was strongly supported by the major foreign owned oil companies that dominate the Australian transport fuel market. The Association vigorously opposed setting a cap on fuel ethanol in the transport fuel market. ABA opposition to the 10% limit was based on the following grounds: * No other fuels in the Australian transport fuel market have had regulatory limits imposed on their access that market. No limits are imposed on petrol or diesel fuels, or on fossil alternative fuels such as CNG and LPG. * A 10% cap on ethanol, and possibly at a later date on biodiesel, thus represents a preferential and uncompetitive market entry barrier to renewable alternative fuels in the Australian transport fuel market. * A 10% limit on ethanol ignores the demonstrated wide flexibility that ethanol, and advances in automotive technologies, offer for the use of a range of blends of domestically produced biofuels in Australia and internationally. * The limit enhances the
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
NP, just an idea. :) I see your point tho. Adminstration is the biggest time sink there is. On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hey Keith, On that note, it would be great to pull together a table to get prices around the US/World for BD. Prices need to be verified by a scanned reciept or picture of the pump though. It would help people to decide if they want to buy or produce themselves based just on pump cost. James Slayden Hi James Yes, that would be great, but a lot of research and a lot of constant maintenance keeping it up to date, and I'm not into doing it I'm afraid. If anyone else wants to I'd consider hosting it at Journey to Forever (though I'd still have to get involved in maintenance and updates). Sorry, not being reluctant, just being realistic (or trying to be). regards Keith On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). Sorry Thor, I see that was an industry figure I checked, not a pump figure. But I think somebody has said they're buying commercial brew for $2. Somebody else quoted $1.75, but that was B20. Still, you're paying much less than most people in the world pay for their fuel. American fuel is much to cheap! Graham Noyes at World Energy never did tell their costings, but we did learn that last year they were offering producers $0.85 per gallon. So the retail price is +200%? I know you're going to tell me to start brewing my own--and you're right. No, I wouldn't say that, depends on your circumstances, and your preferences. But if you think I'd be right then I guess you'll get round it when you can. :-) But I am curious if you have info on regional pricing for biodiesel. Not offhand, I'll see if I come across anything. Even if one brews one's own, one should put a value on one's time and materials costs. I realize that there are many who don't put as high a value on division of labor as others, but I am just pointing this out. I do not assign a cost of zero to my own time or labor in doing things on my own that I'd rather consider paying someone else to do. Todd's done costings for a batch-processing set-up that includes everything, labour, rents, utilitities, insurance, maintenance and truck lease for collection, etc, for a 3,000 gpd facility generating 1,050,000 gallons a year, cost of production well under $0.60 a gallon. On a smaller scale, Chuck Ranum, for instance, seems to spend not more than a few seconds per gallon making his biodiesel. He tells the pump to add the methoxide, then he goes away, comes back later. Dale sits and watches if he wants to. Ian just switches it on and comes back every now and then, makes it once a month. Aleks and his pal Mat usually hang around but don't take much notice, get on with other things. The process itself and all its various steps might take time, but it needn't take you time. Once you set it up properly there's not that much to do. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] engine coversion
That would be some good links to post. On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, craig reece wrote: There are kits available to stick a VW 1.6 or 1.9 diesel engine in the Samurai. Let me know if you can't find them via Google. Craig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello i dont know how to convert the motor , but if you find out I would love to know . I have a samurai i would like to covert thanks ken r. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Building a biodiesel tank
I need to find out what metals are impervious to biodiesel's corrosiveness. Can fittings be sweated with copper or lead, or should they be welded with steel wire, should fitting be stainless steel, brass, copper...etc. Any help is appreciated. G __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
The local pump price for World Energy new soy oil -derived biodiesel fuel at Olympian in San Francisco is about $3.35 a gallon or something like that. It just went up from a slightly lower price after the soy subsidies were cut (?or some such reason).Olympian is a cardlock pump- they are a commercial fueling station for fleets, and opened one biodiesel pump. Customers pre-pay for a certain number of gallons . I don't remember the minumum, but it is a lot I think (Sorry if I'm wrong). Despite the cost, there are 300 cardholders at the moment (source: dave williamson who works closely with the fuel broker cytoculture) At Renner in Northern California (Arcata and Garbervile) I think it's around $2.80 or something like that, don't remember exactly. Regular petroleum is really expensive there, though (close-ish to $2 a gallon sometimes) so it's a relatively good deal if you're the least bit enviroconscious. Renner is also a cardlock system, and there's a minumum purchase of something like $50 (I also could be wrong on this as well) Also look at the Yokayo Biofuels website for their rates, that's who a lot of people in Northern California are getting their fuel from, at lower rate than the pump above, and that all includes home delivery. but an important correction to James' post: Our coop doesn't 'buy' fuel and doesn't sell it- we make our own and we do tie together reimbursement for equipment/chemicals costs to a per-gallon rate for fuel produced, but it is not a purchase. It makes it so that people using fuel are not only paying for the costs of making the fuel (easy to track as we know what our costs for chemicals are) but also helping fundraise for more equipment. We are on a shoestring budget and constantly trying to slowly get equipment upgrades (shameless plug: anybody local got a used transfer pump or a gallon flowmeter to sell us, or some used respirator facepieces, or a circulating pump for a solar hot water system, or some 3/4 ball valves, or some gasketed drum covers, or a cheap balance beam scale?). Reimbursing ourselves per gallon of fuel taken is one way to track it and to distribute the costs to the users who are getting the most benefit- ie those actually using fuel (we have lots of members who do not use biodiesel yet, or who are in the coop as an educational or biodiesel advocacy organization). We don't 'sell' to nonmembers, you have to be a member to get fuel at all. What James was referring to is that we do have a two-tier system for the reimbursement rate (which works poorly at the moment). The two-tier rate raises money at a rate either twice or four times our chemicals costs per gallon (ie we spend .50/gallon for costs, and reimburse the co-op $1 a gallon or $2 a gallon, as we have no other funding source other than very low quarterly dues ($25 every three months). The two tier rate is partly voluntary (ie the theory is that if you're a superpayer/superdonator you get to be in the Canola Club and get a 55-gallon drum or tank named after you and your name inscribed on the wall and a little dance done in your honor, or whatever similarly silly honors you choose. We have a 350-gallon tote named Dave for Dave Williamson for all his help in the project, and one named Randall for Randall Van Wiedel (sp??) for finding us the totes for cheap. They missed getting the little dance though). The rate is also partly based on whether you worked on the particular batch or not. It doesn't work well and is an accounting/paperwork nightmare, however, so I wouldn't recommend that another co-op or group do this kind of thing. Mark At 09:41 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: Depends on where you get it The folks from San Luis Obispo indicated that they were paying $2.85gal from a local distributor. People who are members of the Berkley BD Co-op pay $1, non-members pay $2. I have heard pump prices ranging from ~$2.35 to $2.65. I suppose it depends on feedstock price, the manufactures cost, the distributors markup, so the mileage may vary. Also, remember that in Cali it is becoming a hip thing to be using BD so the price will increase with Envro-Yuppie status. ;-) (hrmm, designer BD?!!! My oil is organic and vegan . hehehehehehe). James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). Sorry Thor, I see that was an industry figure I checked, not a pump figure. But I think somebody has said they're buying commercial brew for $2. Somebody else quoted $1.75, but that was B20. Still, you're paying much less than most people in the world pay for their fuel. American fuel is much to cheap! Graham Noyes at World Energy never did tell their costings, but we did learn that last year they were offering producers $0.85 per gallon. So the retail price is +200%? I know you're going to
Re: [biofuel] engine coNversion
Some diesel conversions for the Suzuki Samurai http://www.keltec.com/hardware/suzuki.html http://www.rocky-road.com/diesel.html Do some investigating, its very do-able. http://www.google.com/search?hl=enlr=ie=UTF-8oe=UTF-8q=VW+diesel+Suzuki+Samurai __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Australia puts off imposing cap on ethanol in fuel
It would be utterly irresponsible if Australia do not take the important and necessary steps to be energy independent. Scaremongers tactics who use up to 80 years old American arguments, that was already incorrect then, is an insult to the Australian people. Hearing about this kind of tactics, like advertising ethanol free gasoline etc. makes me mad, this especially when ethanol is needed to replace MTBE and this is in full implementation in US. Right. Fine. But the problem here is that you and I and Keith are hearing different things coming out of Australia, as to the tactics that are being employed. While I've heard a bit of the scaremongering, as with any good lie, they are mixing enough truth or near-truth to it to make it effective. So, I am trying to get at what is the effective part of this lie in order to better address it. MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
I stand corrected, I think I was mixing up the tier system. And yes you have to be a member of the co-op to get fuel. Selling is a bad term on my part, suggested donation or re-imbursment cost is better terminology. Although I recently saw an article that even non-profits can sell things as long as the money is utilized for non-profit operating and administrative costs. Something to be explored for a small producer. www.compasspoint.org for many modern non-profit things James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: The local pump price for World Energy new soy oil -derived biodiesel fuel at Olympian in San Francisco is about $3.35 a gallon or something like that. It just went up from a slightly lower price after the soy subsidies were cut (?or some such reason).Olympian is a cardlock pump- they are a commercial fueling station for fleets, and opened one biodiesel pump. Customers pre-pay for a certain number of gallons . I don't remember the minumum, but it is a lot I think (Sorry if I'm wrong). Despite the cost, there are 300 cardholders at the moment (source: dave williamson who works closely with the fuel broker cytoculture) At Renner in Northern California (Arcata and Garbervile) I think it's around $2.80 or something like that, don't remember exactly. Regular petroleum is really expensive there, though (close-ish to $2 a gallon sometimes) so it's a relatively good deal if you're the least bit enviroconscious. Renner is also a cardlock system, and there's a minumum purchase of something like $50 (I also could be wrong on this as well) Also look at the Yokayo Biofuels website for their rates, that's who a lot of people in Northern California are getting their fuel from, at lower rate than the pump above, and that all includes home delivery. but an important correction to James' post: Our coop doesn't 'buy' fuel and doesn't sell it- we make our own and we do tie together reimbursement for equipment/chemicals costs to a per-gallon rate for fuel produced, but it is not a purchase. It makes it so that people using fuel are not only paying for the costs of making the fuel (easy to track as we know what our costs for chemicals are) but also helping fundraise for more equipment. We are on a shoestring budget and constantly trying to slowly get equipment upgrades (shameless plug: anybody local got a used transfer pump or a gallon flowmeter to sell us, or some used respirator facepieces, or a circulating pump for a solar hot water system, or some 3/4 ball valves, or some gasketed drum covers, or a cheap balance beam scale?). Reimbursing ourselves per gallon of fuel taken is one way to track it and to distribute the costs to the users who are getting the most benefit- ie those actually using fuel (we have lots of members who do not use biodiesel yet, or who are in the coop as an educational or biodiesel advocacy organization). We don't 'sell' to nonmembers, you have to be a member to get fuel at all. What James was referring to is that we do have a two-tier system for the reimbursement rate (which works poorly at the moment). The two-tier rate raises money at a rate either twice or four times our chemicals costs per gallon (ie we spend .50/gallon for costs, and reimburse the co-op $1 a gallon or $2 a gallon, as we have no other funding source other than very low quarterly dues ($25 every three months). The two tier rate is partly voluntary (ie the theory is that if you're a superpayer/superdonator you get to be in the Canola Club and get a 55-gallon drum or tank named after you and your name inscribed on the wall and a little dance done in your honor, or whatever similarly silly honors you choose. We have a 350-gallon tote named Dave for Dave Williamson for all his help in the project, and one named Randall for Randall Van Wiedel (sp??) for finding us the totes for cheap. They missed getting the little dance though). The rate is also partly based on whether you worked on the particular batch or not. It doesn't work well and is an accounting/paperwork nightmare, however, so I wouldn't recommend that another co-op or group do this kind of thing. Mark At 09:41 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: Depends on where you get it The folks from San Luis Obispo indicated that they were paying $2.85gal from a local distributor. People who are members of the Berkley BD Co-op pay $1, non-members pay $2. I have heard pump prices ranging from ~$2.35 to $2.65. I suppose it depends on feedstock price, the manufactures cost, the distributors markup, so the mileage may vary. Also, remember that in Cali it is becoming a hip thing to be using BD so the price will increase with Envro-Yuppie status. ;-) (hrmm, designer BD?!!! My oil is organic and vegan . hehehehehehe). James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
In the work I do (wireless Internet) we are finding that Tiered cost structures are also becoming a nightmare to administrate. It might be just better if the Co-op just charges everyone $2 and continue to keep the $25/qrtr $100/yr membership. Considering that Diesel #2 down the street is ~$1.80 the alternative the co-op is providing is an outstanding value even at $2/gal. :) James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: The local pump price for World Energy new soy oil -derived biodiesel fuel at Olympian in San Francisco is about $3.35 a gallon or something like that. It just went up from a slightly lower price after the soy subsidies were cut (?or some such reason).Olympian is a cardlock pump- they are a commercial fueling station for fleets, and opened one biodiesel pump. Customers pre-pay for a certain number of gallons . I don't remember the minumum, but it is a lot I think (Sorry if I'm wrong). Despite the cost, there are 300 cardholders at the moment (source: dave williamson who works closely with the fuel broker cytoculture) At Renner in Northern California (Arcata and Garbervile) I think it's around $2.80 or something like that, don't remember exactly. Regular petroleum is really expensive there, though (close-ish to $2 a gallon sometimes) so it's a relatively good deal if you're the least bit enviroconscious. Renner is also a cardlock system, and there's a minumum purchase of something like $50 (I also could be wrong on this as well) Also look at the Yokayo Biofuels website for their rates, that's who a lot of people in Northern California are getting their fuel from, at lower rate than the pump above, and that all includes home delivery. but an important correction to James' post: Our coop doesn't 'buy' fuel and doesn't sell it- we make our own and we do tie together reimbursement for equipment/chemicals costs to a per-gallon rate for fuel produced, but it is not a purchase. It makes it so that people using fuel are not only paying for the costs of making the fuel (easy to track as we know what our costs for chemicals are) but also helping fundraise for more equipment. We are on a shoestring budget and constantly trying to slowly get equipment upgrades (shameless plug: anybody local got a used transfer pump or a gallon flowmeter to sell us, or some used respirator facepieces, or a circulating pump for a solar hot water system, or some 3/4 ball valves, or some gasketed drum covers, or a cheap balance beam scale?). Reimbursing ourselves per gallon of fuel taken is one way to track it and to distribute the costs to the users who are getting the most benefit- ie those actually using fuel (we have lots of members who do not use biodiesel yet, or who are in the coop as an educational or biodiesel advocacy organization). We don't 'sell' to nonmembers, you have to be a member to get fuel at all. What James was referring to is that we do have a two-tier system for the reimbursement rate (which works poorly at the moment). The two-tier rate raises money at a rate either twice or four times our chemicals costs per gallon (ie we spend .50/gallon for costs, and reimburse the co-op $1 a gallon or $2 a gallon, as we have no other funding source other than very low quarterly dues ($25 every three months). The two tier rate is partly voluntary (ie the theory is that if you're a superpayer/superdonator you get to be in the Canola Club and get a 55-gallon drum or tank named after you and your name inscribed on the wall and a little dance done in your honor, or whatever similarly silly honors you choose. We have a 350-gallon tote named Dave for Dave Williamson for all his help in the project, and one named Randall for Randall Van Wiedel (sp??) for finding us the totes for cheap. They missed getting the little dance though). The rate is also partly based on whether you worked on the particular batch or not. It doesn't work well and is an accounting/paperwork nightmare, however, so I wouldn't recommend that another co-op or group do this kind of thing. Mark At 09:41 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: Depends on where you get it The folks from San Luis Obispo indicated that they were paying $2.85gal from a local distributor. People who are members of the Berkley BD Co-op pay $1, non-members pay $2. I have heard pump prices ranging from ~$2.35 to $2.65. I suppose it depends on feedstock price, the manufactures cost, the distributors markup, so the mileage may vary. Also, remember that in Cali it is becoming a hip thing to be using BD so the price will increase with Envro-Yuppie status. ;-) (hrmm, designer BD?!!! My oil is organic and vegan . hehehehehehe). James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Thor and MM WOW!! That's news to me. Where does BD cost around $1.50? I pay $2.65/gallon (and believe me, that hurts). Sorry Thor, I see that was an
[biofuel] (fwd) re: Price of BD
I received this private email from someone who is in the industry and apparently is following the price of BD discussion and did some research on the matter. I think others might be interested in their attempts to research this. It isn't clear to me from their private email if they were sending it privately because they did not understand procedures of public posting or because they were trying to be discreet. But, as I am not a big participant in the price-of-BD discussion, I think it might be the former. So, I am posting their comments (private information excluded), and then I will show this to them privately as an example of posting. MM On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 04:34:34 +, wrote: Dear Mr. Murdoch, I searched high and low for the FOB price of biodiesel and nobody can really tell me the average price. They all said it depends. The US$1.50 price could be a reasonable FOB price for waste oil BD. If you can land it at $2.85, it may not be too bad when you add all the costs in freights and handling. ... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online-No late fees! Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/XfSp7B/XlOFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Forest Fights
I'm terribly pressed for time, but thought this may be of interest. A minor correction to Hakan. I live in a National Forest, not a National Park. http://www.reason.com/rb/rb121802.shtml Best, Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Building a biodiesel tank
On a homebrewer scale it's not that huge of a deal. On the other hand none the processor equipment I currently play with is more than a year old, though that equipment isn;t showing any signs of degradation in brass ball valves, etc. I've seen much more trouble with plastics leaking at threaded connections (due to temperature and eventual distortion) than with metals degrading in biodieselprocessing. If you are a large plant with a volume much greater than a homebrewer's rig, though, it could be more of an issue. Sweat fittings don't seem to be a big problem, though again I haven't done all that many of them in my equipment. I don't think you need to weld routing plumbing connections. People braze fittings into tanks all the time and don't seem to be finding horrible problems with that either. Many amateur welders I've met who've built processors have tried some kind of epoxy paint or something like that to coat the inside of their tanks as a form of insurance against their amateur welding (it's not too easy to weld without holes forming, in thin metal like the drums that alot of us use for equipment). The paint sometimes sticks and sometimes doesn't, I havent had to mess with it. Also it's mostly not biodiesel itself that's corrosive to metals in storage, it's methanol, lye, and methoxide that are corrosive to some metals (aluminum and zinc, I think, though I wouldn't worry too much about galvanized metal's zinc content). It doesn't seem to have been a big deal for most small scale homebrewers. Again if you're talking much larger volume than us (and presumably more money to spend) you may want to do a fancier job (ie stainless steel as much as possible), but it hasn't in practice been a big problem for the little guys, at least all the ones I've met. Mark At 11:33 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: I need to find out what metals are impervious to biodiesel's corrosiveness. Can fittings be sweated with copper or lead, or should they be welded with steel wire, should fitting be stainless steel, brass, copper...etc. Any help is appreciated. G __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.comhttp://mailplus.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
I don't know the name of the place, the 1.86 was Yokayo's price per 1000 gallon a few weeks ago (Last I checked) and the other price is what the Ecology Center truck fleet pays for it in 1000 gallon lots, that price they told me (they also posted it in some press article or another recently) includes the road tax already. Yokayo's 1.86 price is for offroad users- non roadaxed. Turns out both places get it from the same plant. that batch of ecology center's stuff that we tested in class, by the way- I checked up on that with Dave Williamson and he said that it had a pile of additives in it that may have affected the emulsification testing (polarpower and a biocide). It also may have sat around under poor conditions for a while and started to biodegrade despite the biocide (or maybe some other factor). Anyway both places apparently get their fuel from the same plant, according to dave. Mark At 11:27 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: Is that from Imperial? On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: Prices I know of are in 1,000 gallon tanks- 1.86 per gallon that way for offroad, and 2.35/gallon with the road taxes on the same fuel. Unless the 1.86 price is outdated (prices on new soy biodiesel went up recently around here) this is coming from the WVO-derived biodiesel from the plant in Coachella CA. Mark [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
co-ops was Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
At 11:58 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: In the work I do (wireless Internet) we are finding that Tiered cost structures are also becoming a nightmare to administrate. It might be just better if the Co-op just charges everyone $2 and continue to keep the $25/qrtr $100/yr membership. Considering that Diesel #2 down the street is ~$1.80 the alternative the co-op is providing is an outstanding value even at $2/gal. :) James Slayden Unfortunately it's hard to convince people that on top of the moneyearning work they do to get money to pay for fuel at $2 a gallon, and then all the hours they put in to getting to the coop site and then making fuel, that they should then 'pay' a lot more than it costs to make it for it, especially when there;s different tiime commitments and fuel needs coming from different members. The ones who don't work on the batches are quite happy to donate $2 gallon for fuel occasionally, and those who make it or wash it or whatever prefer to spend less money as they're putting in work on the fuel and usually on the equipment making while waiting for oil to heat or whatever. So it's complicated like everything in life. (and it really is hours that they put in at the coop to get fuel made, for various reasons specific to our situation- it'd be more economical if we were in a different location and could use larger equipment or had more cash to spend to automate a couple of things a la touchless processor or whatever, or if could use propane for heating, for example). Co-op and other volunteer work involves an interplay between people's spirit of volunteerism and the demands on their time- ie how much they have to spare. Groovy enviroproject that this all is, a biodiesel coop will only work longterm if it fits a primary mission of getting fuel to members (believe it or not, that's not our primary mission!). Otherwise, unless you're a wingnut like me, it's interesting while you're learning, then it quickly becomes a boring routine of hauling buckets of wash water (hopefully to be soon replaced with 'pumping wash water back and forth to a graywater system' it I hope), getting dirty, and sitting in meetings. So there's got to be (inexpensive in our case) a decent amount of reward for members. Mark On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: The local pump price for World Energy new soy oil -derived biodiesel fuel at Olympian in San Francisco is about $3.35 a gallon or something like that. It just went up from a slightly lower price after the soy subsidies were cut (?or some such reason).Olympian is a cardlock pump- they are a commercial fueling station for fleets, and opened one biodiesel pump. Customers pre-pay for a certain number of gallons . I don't remember the minumum, but it is a lot I think (Sorry if I'm wrong). Despite the cost, there are 300 cardholders at the moment (source: dave williamson who works closely with the fuel broker cytoculture) At Renner in Northern California (Arcata and Garbervile) I think it's around $2.80 or something like that, don't remember exactly. Regular petroleum is really expensive there, though (close-ish to $2 a gallon sometimes) so it's a relatively good deal if you're the least bit enviroconscious. Renner is also a cardlock system, and there's a minumum purchase of something like $50 (I also could be wrong on this as well) Also look at the Yokayo Biofuels website for their rates, that's who a lot of people in Northern California are getting their fuel from, at lower rate than the pump above, and that all includes home delivery. but an important correction to James' post: Our coop doesn't 'buy' fuel and doesn't sell it- we make our own and we do tie together reimbursement for equipment/chemicals costs to a per-gallon rate for fuel produced, but it is not a purchase. It makes it so that people using fuel are not only paying for the costs of making the fuel (easy to track as we know what our costs for chemicals are) but also helping fundraise for more equipment. We are on a shoestring budget and constantly trying to slowly get equipment upgrades (shameless plug: anybody local got a used transfer pump or a gallon flowmeter to sell us, or some used respirator facepieces, or a circulating pump for a solar hot water system, or some 3/4 ball valves, or some gasketed drum covers, or a cheap balance beam scale?). Reimbursing ourselves per gallon of fuel taken is one way to track it and to distribute the costs to the users who are getting the most benefit- ie those actually using fuel (we have lots of members who do not use biodiesel yet, or who are in the coop as an educational or biodiesel advocacy organization). We don't 'sell' to nonmembers, you have to be a member to get fuel at all. What James was referring to is that we do have a two-tier system for the reimbursement rate (which works poorly at the moment). The two-tier rate
More BS - Re: [biofuel] Forest Fights
I'm terribly pressed for time, but thought this may be of interest. A minor correction to Hakan. I live in a National Forest, not a National Park. http://www.reason.com/rb/rb121802.shtml Best, Motie ... by Ronald Bailey, Reason's science correspondent, is the editor of Global Warming and Other Eco Myths (Prima Publishing) and Earth Report 2000: Revisiting the True State of the Planet(McGraw-Hill). We talked about him before, remember? When you posted this: Mommy, There's A Monster Under My Bed! (A Review Of Global Warming And Other Eco-Myths) (Thought Provoking Book Review). Wise Use, stuff, radical right anti-environment lobby, corporate-funded but claims to be independent, closely linked with all the others and their astroturf groups and so on. There were some responses, to which you replied (below). Ramjee said this: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Mommy, There's A Monster Under My Bed! (A Review Of Global Warming And Other Eco-Myths) snip Probably the subject line should have read 'provocative book review!' ;-) I guess, an Indian edition/context of the book would include a lengthy chapter on greed (oops, green) revolution by that illustrious agri scientist of India called MS Swaminathan, who is the Norman Borlaug's equivalent in India. The cutest thing is that this scientist has now started talking about 'sustainable' farming etc - probably because, this would get suffient funding, in these days of enlightened benefactors! Anyway, a few quotes that I harvested are in order here: Do not become archivists of facts. Try to penetrate to the secret of their occurrence, persistently search for the laws which govern them. -- Ivan Pavlov It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them. -- Caron de Beaumarchais So Motie, please forgive Ron Bailey - he knows naught what he is doing. ;-) Thor said this: I have read sections of similar publications by Bailey before. There is some useful information therein, and undoubtedly it is always good to hear a different opinion. But my impression, after going through the contents posted at http://www.nrbookservice.com/bookpage.asp?prod_cd=C5961 is that this publication is largely greenwash, as is most of what the CEI puts out. I don't care what experts Bailey has lined up. You can always find an expert who disagrees with other experts. What is important is that CEI has a strong ideological grounding, that has nothing itself to do with science. They believe in free markets and limited government. They pick and choose science to suit their point of view, not in any quest for objective truth. Two examples from CEI's The Environmental Source 2002 at http://www.cei.org/gencon/026,01623.cfm 1. on energy policy: CAFE does not reduce gasoline consumption. enough said 2. the section on Agricultural Biotechnology looks as if it has been written by Monsanto. Talk about shoddy science and lack of empirical grounding. It dismisses legitimate ecological concerns (laregely by not mentioning them) about the potential consequences of introducing GMOs into the environment. It claims that labeling of GMO foods will raise the cost of food for poor people--by how much they don't say, and they don't mention that it won't raise the cost of food that DOESN'T contain GMOs. and on and on What is remarkable about CEI's work is that, although they extoll the free market, they say nothing about the role played by corporations (e.g. large market actors) in influencing public policy and regulation. You'd think the only ones out there doing lobbying were misguided environmental organizations and activist groups. Also, they selectively promote consumer welfare; that is, they support the purported desire of consumers to have the lowest priced goods no matter what the ecological, ethical, human rights, or economic impacts of the production, distribution, or consumption of those products, but they generally oppose consumer education and choice through labeling and certification, or anything else that would expose these impacts or reflect them in pricing. In short, it's largely a load of crap, but nevertheless probably an interesting read in parts. best to all, thor skov I said this: Motie, if you don't mind, this is total BS. Ronald Bailey, FCOL! When it comes to sheer hard facts, Mr Bailey, the Competitive Enterprise Institute and Reason Magazine are right up there with Denis Avery, Michael Fumento, Bjorn Lomborg and, indeed, the one and only David Pimentel - hooray for these torch-bearers of perverted truth, talented liars one and all who would save us from ourselves! Sheesh! The Competitive Enterprise Institute 'postures as an advocate of sound science in the development of public policy. In fact, it is an ideologically-driven, well-funded front for corporations opposed to safety and environmental regulations that affect the way they do business.' Simply that, spinners one and all, very much including Mr Bailey: Ronald Bailey (1993) is
[biofuel] Fwd: Special Alert -- Don't Delay! Register Now for the Biodiesel Research and Brainstorming Workshop
From: National Biodiesel Board [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: newsletter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Special Alert -- Don't Delay! Register Now for the Biodiesel Research and Brainstorming Workshop Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:48:03 -0600 Special Alert÷Donât Delay! Register Now for the Biodiesel Research and Brainstorming Workshop If youâre interested in learning about the latest biodiesel research and technical data from North Americaâs leading experts, register now for the Biodiesel Research and Brainstorming Workshop, January 29-30,2003, in New Orleans. Sponsored by the National Biodiesel Board (NBB), the US Department of Energy, and the US Department of Agriculture, the workshop is a must for biodiesel researchers and technical personnel, biodiesel fuel suppliers, engine and fuel injection equipment manufacturers, government agencies interested in funding biodiesel research and development, and other stakeholders. While the final agenda and speakers will remain flexible to help ensure the latest and best information is shared, the sessions planned for this yearâs workshop include: - Recent advancements in improving biodiesel cold flow properties - New biodiesel stability test methods and data - Biodiesel standards with ASTM, the military and the government - User experience (military, parks, schools, EPACT fleets, government agencies) - Biodiesel emissions data (US EPA, CARB, heating oil) - New engine technology and biodiesel NOx strategies - Engine data and updates (1000 hour life test results, Original Equipment Manufacturer input) ãThe sessions we are planning for this yearâs workshop are substantial and are designed to maximize the sharing of technical information and practical experience among participants,ä said Steve Howell, NBB technical director. ãOur relationship with the engine and fuel injection equipment community has really grown during the last year, and we anticipate each major engine and FIE company will send representatives. This is an area that the industry made a priority during last yearâs session.ä If the overwhelming interest in last yearâs brainstorming workshop is any indicator, those wanting to attend should sign up soon due to a limited number of registrations. The deadline for the special discount rate of $139 a night at the beautiful Royal Sonesta Hotel on Bourbon Street in New Orleans is January 10. For more information and to register online, visit www.biodiesel.org. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: co-ops was Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Understood. There is a great sustainable community farm model in Virginia or Vermont that has susbscriptions for people who are want the produce, but don't want to participate in the actual labor. I don't know if they have a tiered system, but it seems to work well for them. The article was in Organic Gardening a while back. They took some really marginal land and just completely converted it to a sustainable organic community farm. James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: At 11:58 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: In the work I do (wireless Internet) we are finding that Tiered cost structures are also becoming a nightmare to administrate. It might be just better if the Co-op just charges everyone $2 and continue to keep the $25/qrtr $100/yr membership. Considering that Diesel #2 down the street is ~$1.80 the alternative the co-op is providing is an outstanding value even at $2/gal. :) James Slayden Unfortunately it's hard to convince people that on top of the moneyearning work they do to get money to pay for fuel at $2 a gallon, and then all the hours they put in to getting to the coop site and then making fuel, that they should then 'pay' a lot more than it costs to make it for it, especially when there;s different tiime commitments and fuel needs coming from different members. The ones who don't work on the batches are quite happy to donate $2 gallon for fuel occasionally, and those who make it or wash it or whatever prefer to spend less money as they're putting in work on the fuel and usually on the equipment making while waiting for oil to heat or whatever. So it's complicated like everything in life. (and it really is hours that they put in at the coop to get fuel made, for various reasons specific to our situation- it'd be more economical if we were in a different location and could use larger equipment or had more cash to spend to automate a couple of things a la touchless processor or whatever, or if could use propane for heating, for example). Co-op and other volunteer work involves an interplay between people's spirit of volunteerism and the demands on their time- ie how much they have to spare. Groovy enviroproject that this all is, a biodiesel coop will only work longterm if it fits a primary mission of getting fuel to members (believe it or not, that's not our primary mission!). Otherwise, unless you're a wingnut like me, it's interesting while you're learning, then it quickly becomes a boring routine of hauling buckets of wash water (hopefully to be soon replaced with 'pumping wash water back and forth to a graywater system' it I hope), getting dirty, and sitting in meetings. So there's got to be (inexpensive in our case) a decent amount of reward for members. Mark On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: The local pump price for World Energy new soy oil -derived biodiesel fuel at Olympian in San Francisco is about $3.35 a gallon or something like that. It just went up from a slightly lower price after the soy subsidies were cut (?or some such reason).Olympian is a cardlock pump- they are a commercial fueling station for fleets, and opened one biodiesel pump. Customers pre-pay for a certain number of gallons . I don't remember the minumum, but it is a lot I think (Sorry if I'm wrong). Despite the cost, there are 300 cardholders at the moment (source: dave williamson who works closely with the fuel broker cytoculture) At Renner in Northern California (Arcata and Garbervile) I think it's around $2.80 or something like that, don't remember exactly. Regular petroleum is really expensive there, though (close-ish to $2 a gallon sometimes) so it's a relatively good deal if you're the least bit enviroconscious. Renner is also a cardlock system, and there's a minumum purchase of something like $50 (I also could be wrong on this as well) Also look at the Yokayo Biofuels website for their rates, that's who a lot of people in Northern California are getting their fuel from, at lower rate than the pump above, and that all includes home delivery. but an important correction to James' post: Our coop doesn't 'buy' fuel and doesn't sell it- we make our own and we do tie together reimbursement for equipment/chemicals costs to a per-gallon rate for fuel produced, but it is not a purchase. It makes it so that people using fuel are not only paying for the costs of making the fuel (easy to track as we know what our costs for chemicals are) but also helping fundraise for more equipment. We are on a shoestring budget and constantly trying to slowly get equipment upgrades (shameless plug: anybody local got a used transfer pump or a gallon flowmeter to sell us, or some used respirator facepieces, or a circulating pump for a solar hot water system, or some 3/4 ball valves, or some gasketed drum covers, or a
Re: co-ops was Re: [biofuel] BD at $1.50/gallon?!
Keith, Looks like some of my email to biofuel@yahoogroups.com is bouncing, although some are getting through. Just wanted to let ya know. James On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, James Slayden wrote: Understood. There is a great sustainable community farm model in Virginia or Vermont that has susbscriptions for people who are want the produce, but don't want to participate in the actual labor. I don't know if they have a tiered system, but it seems to work well for them. The article was in Organic Gardening a while back. They took some really marginal land and just completely converted it to a sustainable organic community farm. James Slayden On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: At 11:58 AM 12/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: In the work I do (wireless Internet) we are finding that Tiered cost structures are also becoming a nightmare to administrate. It might be just better if the Co-op just charges everyone $2 and continue to keep the $25/qrtr $100/yr membership. Considering that Diesel #2 down the street is ~$1.80 the alternative the co-op is providing is an outstanding value even at $2/gal. :) James Slayden Unfortunately it's hard to convince people that on top of the moneyearning work they do to get money to pay for fuel at $2 a gallon, and then all the hours they put in to getting to the coop site and then making fuel, that they should then 'pay' a lot more than it costs to make it for it, especially when there;s different tiime commitments and fuel needs coming from different members. The ones who don't work on the batches are quite happy to donate $2 gallon for fuel occasionally, and those who make it or wash it or whatever prefer to spend less money as they're putting in work on the fuel and usually on the equipment making while waiting for oil to heat or whatever. So it's complicated like everything in life. (and it really is hours that they put in at the coop to get fuel made, for various reasons specific to our situation- it'd be more economical if we were in a different location and could use larger equipment or had more cash to spend to automate a couple of things a la touchless processor or whatever, or if could use propane for heating, for example). Co-op and other volunteer work involves an interplay between people's spirit of volunteerism and the demands on their time- ie how much they have to spare. Groovy enviroproject that this all is, a biodiesel coop will only work longterm if it fits a primary mission of getting fuel to members (believe it or not, that's not our primary mission!). Otherwise, unless you're a wingnut like me, it's interesting while you're learning, then it quickly becomes a boring routine of hauling buckets of wash water (hopefully to be soon replaced with 'pumping wash water back and forth to a graywater system' it I hope), getting dirty, and sitting in meetings. So there's got to be (inexpensive in our case) a decent amount of reward for members. Mark On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: The local pump price for World Energy new soy oil -derived biodiesel fuel at Olympian in San Francisco is about $3.35 a gallon or something like that. It just went up from a slightly lower price after the soy subsidies were cut (?or some such reason).Olympian is a cardlock pump- they are a commercial fueling station for fleets, and opened one biodiesel pump. Customers pre-pay for a certain number of gallons . I don't remember the minumum, but it is a lot I think (Sorry if I'm wrong). Despite the cost, there are 300 cardholders at the moment (source: dave williamson who works closely with the fuel broker cytoculture) At Renner in Northern California (Arcata and Garbervile) I think it's around $2.80 or something like that, don't remember exactly. Regular petroleum is really expensive there, though (close-ish to $2 a gallon sometimes) so it's a relatively good deal if you're the least bit enviroconscious. Renner is also a cardlock system, and there's a minumum purchase of something like $50 (I also could be wrong on this as well) Also look at the Yokayo Biofuels website for their rates, that's who a lot of people in Northern California are getting their fuel from, at lower rate than the pump above, and that all includes home delivery. but an important correction to James' post: Our coop doesn't 'buy' fuel and doesn't sell it- we make our own and we do tie together reimbursement for equipment/chemicals costs to a per-gallon rate for fuel produced, but it is not a purchase. It makes it so that people using fuel are not only paying for the costs of making the fuel (easy to track as we know what our costs for chemicals are) but also helping fundraise for more equipment. We are on a
[biofuel] [news]: No beer for Christmas in Venezuela
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyncid=586e=1cid=586u=/nm/20021219/wl_nm/venezuela_dc Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] [news]: No beer for Christmas in Venezuela
ooops, meant to post the text as well http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyncid=586e=1cid=586u=/nm/20021219/wl_nm/venezuela_dc World - Reuters Venezuela Court Orders Oil Restart as Strike Bites 1 hour, 7 minutes ago Add World - Reuters to My Yahoo! By Patrick Markey CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela's Supreme Court on Friday ordered the temporary resumption of oil operations closed by an opposition strike against President Hugo Chavez that has rattled markets and caused gasoline shortages in the world's No. 5 petroleum exporter. Reuters Photo Reuters Slideshow: Venezuela Anti-Chavez Protesters Take to the Streets (AP Video) Nearly three weeks into the strike, lines of several hundred cars and trucks formed outside some gasoline stations. Others were deserted, posting No Gas signs, as incredulous Venezuelans faced the prospect of empty gas tanks. The ruling applies until the nation's highest court makes a final decision on the legality of the 18-day-old oil industry shutdown launched by the president's foes to force him to resign. It was not clear when that decision would be made. Strike leaders, who have vowed to maintain the stoppage until the president steps down and calls early elections, said they were examining the decision. But they were clearly angry. This is just more pressure and I think it will lead to more confrontation, said one dissident executive at the state oil firm PDVSA, who asked not to be identified. The court ordered PDVSA officials to obey government instructions to guarantee operations in the oil sector that have been virtually shut down by the strike. Government officials swiftly welcomed the ruling. The ruling is very clear. They have to return to work. If they don't they face severe sanctions, Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel told Reuters. We hope that they recognize the decision of the Supreme Court. Strikers who disregard the court ruling could face jail for contempt. Chavez has vowed to fight the strike, using the armed forces where necessary. With Venezuela's oil output now down to less than 300,000 barrels per day from 3.1 million bpd in November, the stoppage is costing millions of dollars a day, strangling the lifeblood of an economy already in steep recession. Oil prices hit their highest level in two years on Thursday on deepening supply shock from Venezuela while Washington readied for war against Iraq. CRUNCH FROM GASOLINE, FOOD SHORTAGES Chavez, who was elected in 1998 and survived a coup in April, has dismissed opposition calls for an early vote. The populist president, who claims most Venezuelans back his left-wing reforms to ease poverty, says the constitution only allows a referendum on his mandate in August. Struggling to restart oil exports, Chavez has sacked dissident oil executives leading the strike and has sent troops to take over idled state-run tankers, refineries and ports. The government has also authorized the military to commandeer ships, trucks and planes to keep supplies moving. But shortages were already being felt, triggering a rush to gas stations around the country. At one Caracas station, drivers had slept overnight in their cars to secure a place in line. National Guard troops and police broke up quarrels between motorists as tensions flared over the dwindling gas supplies. With less than a week to go before Christmas, shoppers packed supermarkets in Caracas to buy up thinning stocks of some basic goods and customers lined the streets outside banks, which are operating only during limited hours. People are buying nervously. Some supplies got to us today, but we have no corn flour, wheat flour, soft drinks and other basic products, said one Caracas supermarket chain manager. If there is no gas this will get critical. But with even beer supplies drying up in South America's largest consumer of lager and ales, many are preparing for a bleak Christmas. National sports events have been canceled and television channels have been cluttered with constant political news coverage. We can't get beer anywhere, said Ernesto Otero, a manager of a Caracas bar. With no baseball, no drink, no horse-racing, no television and no football ... people are going to protest when there is no alcohol, even more than about oil. Venezuela has been gripped by political conflict since April's coup as the opposition stepped up a campaign of street protests. His foes accuse the fiery, outspoken Venezuelan leader of ruining the economy, stirring class warfare and imposing a communist dictatorship in the Andean nation. Chavez has accused the opposition, an alliance of business groups, unions and civic associations backed mainly by the middle and upper class, of trying to destroy his self-styled revolution in favor the nation's impoverished majority. (Additional reporting by Silene Ramirez, Ana Isabel Martinez, Ibon Villelabeitia) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
Re: [biofuel] Finding source for SVO
How much do you need? Where is it going to? Is soy oil OK? Craig - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Finding source for SVO Hi to all, I am looking for some-one in the states for purchase bulk vegetable oil, for export. Regards, Damian Dolan Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Going into biodiesel business
Hello Evans, Where are you located ? Kevin D. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE : [biofuel] Forest Fights
At Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:40:02 -, motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Motie, may I suggest the following? 1. It would be a nice idea to show some consideration to people (like me) with flaky Internet connections - like whetting the URL, whether the matter has already been discussed, if so what is the prevailing viewpoint, and what additional facets of the 'truth' that the article brings about. http://www.reason.com/rb/rb121802.shtml (am reminded of the old arabic saying - 'dogs bark, but caravans carry on' - with due respect to the canines... :-) 2. Though raw bits like what you have posted are okay - it would be nice to know *your* opinion on the subject, especially when the issue it rakes up, happens to be a very contentious one. Also please note that His Highhandedness Ron Bailey's views are at best known to be white noise. Unfortunately, everytime this kind of stuff is posted, it results/may result in one or more of the following: 2.1 It generates a backlash (well deserved) but the energy and time of the others could be better utilized for composing more *useful* mails rather than debunking (for the nth time) the trollish views of a few working for the likes of treason.con ;-) 2.2 Signal to Noise ratio of the list suffers. 2.3 People like myself have to pay to download mails - which we may not be interested in reading in the first place, resulting in exasperation! 2.4 People may killfile these kinds of mails at their mailboxes, so they may lose the benefit of reading and getting to know your opinions/views in future... I'm terribly pressed for time, but thought this may be of interest. 3. So are most of us, am sure! :-) It would have been nicer on your part to go thru the article first and offer your opinion rather than simply forwarding the URL that you have come across. Warm regards: __ramjee. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
