[Biofuel] C-SPAN
I was really bored out of town this week so I watched TV. The most interesting thing I could find was a Rep from Maryland was speaking about Alternative fuels on C-Span. He made an interesting argument for alternatives. I was sorely disappointed that he did not mention or even list Biodiesel as an alternative fuel. There were 25 Million gallons of Biodiesel in US commercial production not counting private in 2004. I am currently reading Greg Pahls book _BIODIESEL - growing a new energy economy_ which contains some very forward looking information. The bottom line here is a question - Why is this source so ignored when it produces over 3 gallons for every one expended? What do you folks see as the top 10 replacement fuels and in what order. Currently hydrogen is right next to coal on my list as we must burn so much coal to use this clean fuel Ok one last question about wind farms. I told someone that wind farms have the _potential_ of changing the weather if there is enough energy extracted. I was laughed at and got that look _Now I did say potentia_l. The laws of thermodynamics say so. So can any one share some more insight to this potential possibility?? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] All plastic processor
I may be getting in the middle here but FYI I just purchased some 8 Dia. Sch 40 PVC. It holds roughly 2.5 gallons per foot. they make a very nice concentric reducer glue fitting for the bottom that can be threaded to your choice of sizes. The Wall Thickness is heavy enough you can drill and tap side fittings for your pump/gage taps etc. you can get a tee with clean out also. 2 part marine (putty stick) sticks real well to if you prep with sand paper. I am making mine about 10 gallons each and making dual reactors with one wash tub. the pipe is about 5-6 bucks a foot and fittings run about 20 bucks each. Wisdom to all, Jim David Thornton wrote: I've been using an ethylene processor, using jb welding on the joints. Made about 45 gallons then it started leaking. Just make sure to really rough up surfaces that the jb weld will adhere too, and cake it on. good luck. david ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power (was C-SPAN
Hi JJJN, On Sep 10, 2005, at 9:47 PM, JJJN wrote: ... Ok one last question about wind farms. I told someone that wind farms have the _potential_ of changing the weather if there is enough energy extracted. I was laughed at and got that look _Now I did say potentia_l. The laws of thermodynamics say so. So can any one share some more insight to this potential possibility?? This has been on my mind too, but I've not collected enough information to make an informed guess. The same question applies to tidal power and current power There have been proposals to anchor huge slow speed propellors in the gulf stream, to generate electric power. This seems (to me) to have the potential to extract enough energy to slow the stream. Even a fractional change in the energy delivered to the north atlantic might have extreme consequences for the ecosystem as well as weather. So anyone have informed guesses, or hard data, on the possible effects of pulling significant power out of tides, big water currents, jet streams, and ground level winds? Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] All plastic processor
thanks jjjn this is the best ideal i have seen yet. god bless Levi - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] All plastic processor I may be getting in the middle here but FYI I just purchased some 8 Dia. Sch 40 PVC. It holds roughly 2.5 gallons per foot. they make a very nice concentric reducer glue fitting for the bottom that can be threaded to your choice of sizes. The Wall Thickness is heavy enough you can drill and tap side fittings for your pump/gage taps etc. you can get a tee with clean out also. 2 part marine (putty stick) sticks real well to if you prep with sand paper. I am making mine about 10 gallons each and making dual reactors with one wash tub. the pipe is about 5-6 bucks a foot and fittings run about 20 bucks each. Wisdom to all, Jim David Thornton wrote: I've been using an ethylene processor, using jb welding on the joints. Made about 45 gallons then it started leaking. Just make sure to really rough up surfaces that the jb weld will adhere too, and cake it on. good luck. david ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] C-SPAN
JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was really bored out of town this week so I watched TV. The most interesting thing I could find was a Rep from Maryland was speaking about Alternative fuels on C-Span. He made an interesting argument for alternatives. I was sorely disappointed that he did not mention or even list Biodiesel as an alternative fuel. There were 25 Million gallons of Biodiesel in US commercial production not counting private in 2004. I am currently reading Greg Pahls book _BIODIESEL - growing a new energy economy_ which contains some very forward looking information. The bottom line here is a question - Why is this source so ignored when it produces over 3 gallons for every one expended? Could be that the major oil companies, who own the current U.S. administration, don't control the production of biodiesel, and therefore wish to suppress it. Oops, I think my cynicism is showing. What do you folks see as the top 10 replacement fuels and in what order. Currently hydrogen is right next to coal on my list as we must burn so much coal to use this clean fuel Here's my top ten - it's energy sources, more or less, rather than fuels. 1) Negawatts (efficiency, conservation). 2) Low-tech solar. 3) Low-tech geothermal (berming, ground/water-coupled heat pumps). 4) Wind. 5) Biodiesel, SVO. 6) Ethanol. 7) Hydro. 8) Photovoltaics. 9) Wood. 10) Methane. Ok one last question about wind farms. I told someone that wind farms have the _potential_ of changing the weather if there is enough energy extracted. I was laughed at and got that look _Now I did say potentia_l. The laws of thermodynamics say so. So can any one share some more insight to this potential possibility?? Without question, wind turbines extract mechanical energy from the wind. In effect, they slow the wind down to some extent. The real question is whether or not they have potential for changing the weather. Personally, I would say not in any realistic scenario. Global warming implies that average windspeeds will increase. I submit that wind turbines of current designs will not extract enough energy to offset that increase. The key to the argument, IMO, is that wind turbines cover such an insignificant portion of the wind cross section as to be meaningless. Winds move to heights of over 15,000 metres above the planet's entire surface. Turbines rise to heights of about 150 metres (top of blade tip for large turbines), or about 1%. They interrupt the slowest of the winds - those closest to the surface which are slowed and disrupted by surface features. So the 1% overstates the amount of energy they can intercept dramatically. Then, turbines will only ever cover some tiny percentage of the planet's surface - let's guess 1/10,000 of 1%. Then, the turbines only extract a small percentage of the energy in the winds they do intercept - say 20% maximum for a perfect turbine. So, putting that together, my back of the envelope guess is the impact on wind energy of a massive implementation of wind turbines is in the order of 1/5,000,000,000th of the available energy. I suspect it will be hard to measure the impact of that extraction on changing the weather or climate. However, global warming is already having measurable impacts on climate. http://www.livescience.com/environment/041109_wind_mills.html I think David Keith's estimate of wind farms covering 10% of the planet's land surface is beyond extreme. As for Somnath Baidya Roy's research, his simulation indicates that wind turbines that extract energy from the wind will result in *increased* local wind speed. Of course, his model doesn't allow for planting of trees as windbreaks or any other remedial action, assuming his theoretical model is correct. IMHO, the impact is strictly theoretical, and not going to be observed in practical terms. -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol in the Philippines - just put it in and go?
In very round numbers, gasoline has about 20,000 BTU per pound, ethanol 12,000, methanol 10,000. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Fri, 9 Sep 2005, Zeke Yewdall wrote: My understanding is that ethanol will run fine in existing gasoline engines. The difference is in compatibility with seals, and ability to vaporize at lower temperatures. It's got a bit higher vapor pressure, so in northern US, it can create hard starting in the wintertime. It does have a bit lower energy content per gallon, and higher oxygen content, which could confuse the electronic controls systems that most cars have now. They measure input airflow, and oxygen content in the exhaust, and decide how much fuel can be put in and still assure complete combustion. I don't know if ethanol might mess this up. Older cabureated cars you'd probably just have to reset the jets. The lower energy content per gallon also means that the mpg is a bit less. Somewhere around 10% I think??? If you designed the car to run only on ethanol, then you can typically use a much higher compression ratio (12:1 or so instead of 9:1 or less). This gives you back alot of the performance and mpg losses from using the lower energy content fuel. [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Alcohol:Food vs fuel
Dear Mr. PanneerSelvam, I've been reading your inputs to this forum quite for sometime and your enthusiasm is really contagious! but there are problems for individuals for producing alcohol. The process is simple enough for small scale (back yard) production which you recommend. raw material such as sweet sorghum and sugar beet can be grown ; the economics of production is well known to those in the field. Special strains of sweet sorghum are available in National Research Institutes in Hyderabad, as well as at Indian Institute of Agricultural Research . But. The moment I announce that I'm going to make my own fuel ( for personal use) half a dozen Govt agencies will raid my place ! Production of ethyl alcohol isnot possible without Govt license (which is not easy to get for an individual), payment of several duties and taxes and bribes on the side. Even if the farmers make alcohol on the sly, on second thoughts they would rather drink it than use for fuel. You know the types in India. On the commercial scale Indian Sugar Mills Assocn have half a million litres of surplus ethanol forE05 in the whole country but then theIndian oil corporation is still dragging its feet issuing purchase tenders for ethanol. So these are the ground realities here. Still I keep hoping it will change in due course. Regards, Subramanian "Pannirselvam P.V" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Manick I am native of South India.It is very true that Malaysia and India,the fuel alcohol can be mis used as the drinks. Brazil , where I live now ,here too are making alcohol for local consume and exportation as the alcoholic drinks and fuel made from sugarcane and fruits as both are the needs In south India where there is always power cut expected more than 30 porcent , locally made distilled home made alcohol, the municipal government can buy and use for transport and power generation. You are showing the real problem of corrupt practice there .Thus local use of ethanol for fuel instead of commercial use can solve the powercut there.This is need decentralised development of municipality.Only private company need to do all , under corrupted some political party not bothered about real problem of energy development. Based on traditional local home made alcohol , India can produce as much as Brazil (2 bilhoes liter of alcohol for food and fuel) and can solve the energy crisis.The farmer need to put light in the night and make plantation in India where as the farmer from USA, France and Europe has government financial help.Manick , surely India and can make possible the home made decentralised bio ethanol that thus make using pot , to put in their small motorised bicycle , thus making them independent to get away the poverty and all corrupted petroleum business , which is the root cause of the poverty, making people dependence on imported fuel that they can not pay. I wish to request Keith to publish via our list members from India about the low cost pot distillation, as this so simple and low cost ,any one can made fuel in their home based on this pot made tradicional alcohol which had made and making making story of so many tragedy and death of alcohol addiction .But this bad story can be made to be real a solution for the energy crysis sdPannirselvam On 9/10/05, Manick Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tq Chris, My reason for posting is to stimulate interestto convince other group members to undertake ethanol and power generation projects.I am not in a position to dothem here in Malaysia or India, countries full of skull-duggering and dangerof losing all the investment due to fraudulent practices by the unscrupulous, without recourse to justice. I could give pages and pages of bad business ethics. It is very bad here which is the main reason this country is in languishing thedoldrums. The best I can do is to convince members that these concepts are viable and that there is great need to now to find alternatives to petroleum fuels. Cheers Manickh Chris lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hey! i just remembered, homebrew champagne makers are cautioned to make surethat all yeast has been killed before finla bottling, lest continued fermentation generate so much pressure that it pops the cork. That cannot be right as to do so would leave you with flat champagne, you need the secondary fermentation to make any wine/beer fizzy. Champagne bottles have their corks wired on anyway. Chris.Wessex Ferret Clubwww.wessexferretclub.co.uk ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ___Biofuel mailing
Re: [Biofuel] All plastic processor
PVC will get soft as it's heated. Take this into account. I'm not sure how much heat is required though. I've seen people bend and stretch PVC using steam or propane torch. Also, PVC gives off dioxin when it burns. JJJN wrote: I may be getting in the middle here but FYI I just purchased some 8 Dia. Sch 40 PVC. It holds roughly 2.5 gallons per foot. they make a very nice concentric reducer glue fitting for the bottom that can be threaded to your choice of sizes. The Wall Thickness is heavy enough you can drill and tap side fittings for your pump/gage taps etc. you can get a tee with clean out also. 2 part marine (putty stick) sticks real well to if you prep with sand paper. I am making mine about 10 gallons each and making dual reactors with one wash tub. the pipe is about 5-6 bucks a foot and fittings run about 20 bucks each. Wisdom to all, Jim David Thornton wrote: ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] C-SPAN
Wouldn't putting in a sub-division or office park have the same effect on the wind as turbines do? Darryl McMahon wrote: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was really bored out of town this week so I watched TV. The most interesting thing I could find was a Rep from Maryland was speaking about Alternative fuels on C-Span. He made an interesting argument for alternatives. I was sorely disappointed that he did not mention or even list Biodiesel as an alternative fuel. There were 25 Million gallons of Biodiesel in US commercial production not counting private in 2004. I am currently reading Greg Pahls book _BIODIESEL - growing a new energy economy_ which contains some very forward looking information. The bottom line here is a question - Why is this source so ignored when it produces over 3 gallons for every one expended? Could be that the major oil companies, who own the current U.S. administration, don't control the production of biodiesel, and therefore wish to suppress it. Oops, I think my cynicism is showing. What do you folks see as the top 10 replacement fuels and in what order. Currently hydrogen is right next to coal on my list as we must burn so much coal to use this clean fuel Here's my top ten - it's energy sources, more or less, rather than fuels. 1) Negawatts (efficiency, conservation). 2) Low-tech solar. 3) Low-tech geothermal (berming, ground/water-coupled heat pumps). 4) Wind. 5) Biodiesel, SVO. 6) Ethanol. 7) Hydro. 8) Photovoltaics. 9) Wood. 10) Methane. Ok one last question about wind farms. I told someone that wind farms have the _potential_ of changing the weather if there is enough energy extracted. I was laughed at and got that look _Now I did say potentia_l. The laws of thermodynamics say so. So can any one share some more insight to this potential possibility?? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] More pork for Halliburton, Bechtel and Shaw
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/10/katrina.contracts.reut/index.html Firms with White House ties get Katrina contracts FEMA taps Halliburton subsidiary, Shaw Group, Bechtel for cleanup Saturday, September 10, 2005; Posted: 1:26 p.m. EDT (17:26 GMT) SPECIAL REPORT WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Companies with ties to the Bush White House and the former head of FEMA are clinching some of the administration's first disaster relief and reconstruction contracts in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. At least two major corporate clients of lobbyist Joe Allbaugh, President Bush's former campaign manager and a former head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, have already been tapped to start recovery work along the battered Gulf Coast. One is Shaw Group Inc. and the other is Halliburton Co. subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root. Vice President Dick Cheney is a former head of Halliburton. Bechtel National Inc., a unit of San Francisco-based Bechtel Corp., has also been selected by FEMA to provide short-term housing for people displaced by the hurricane. Bush named Bechtel's CEO to his Export Council and put the former CEO of Bechtel Energy in charge of the Overseas Private Investment Corporation. Experts say it has been common practice in both Republican and Democratic administrations for policy makers to take lobbying jobs once they leave office, and many of the same companies seeking contracts in the wake of Hurricane Katrina have already received billions of dollars for work in Iraq. Halliburton alone has earned more than $9 billion. Pentagon audits released by Democrats in June showed $1.03 billion in "questioned" costs and $422 million in "unsupported" costs for Halliburton's work in Iraq. Watchdog groups take notice But the web of Bush administration connections is attracting renewed attention from watchdog groups in the post-Katrina reconstruction rush. Congress has already appropriated more than $60 billion in emergency funding as a down payment on recovery efforts projected to cost well over $100 billion. "The government has got to stop stacking senior positions with people who are repeatedly cashing in on the public trust in order to further private commercial interests," said Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project on Government Oversight. Bush appointees at Halliburton Allbaugh formally registered as a lobbyist for Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root in February. In lobbying disclosure forms filed with the Senate, Allbaugh said his goal was to "educate the congressional and executive branch on defense, disaster relief and homeland security issues affecting Kellogg Brown and Root." Melissa Norcross, a Halliburton spokeswoman, said Allbaugh has not, since he was hired, "consulted on any specific contracts that the company is considering pursuing, nor has he been tasked by the company with any lobbying responsibilities." Allbaugh is also a friend of Michael Brown, director of FEMA who was removed as head of Katrina disaster relief and sent back to Washington amid allegations he had padded his resume -- which he denies. A few months after Allbaugh was hired by Halliburton, the company retained another high-level Bush appointee, Kirk Van Tine. Van Tine registered as a lobbyist for Halliburton six months after resigning as deputy transportation secretary, a position he held from December 2003 to December 2004. On Friday, Kellogg Brown Root received $29.8 million in Pentagon contracts to begin rebuilding Navy bases in Louisiana and Mississippi. Norcross said the work was covered under a contract that the company negotiated before Allbaugh was hired. Cheney's relationship with Halliburton Halliburton continues to be a source of income for Cheney, who served as its chief executive officer from 1995 until 2000 when he joined the Republican ticket for the White House. According to tax filings released in April, Cheney's income included $194,852 in deferred pay from the company, which has also won billion-dollar government contracts in Iraq. Cheney's office said the amount of deferred compensation is fixed and is not affected by Halliburton's current economic performance or earnings. Allbaugh's other major client, Baton Rouge-based Shaw Group, has updated its Web site to say: "Hurricane Recovery Projects -- Apply Here!" Shaw said on Thursday it has received a $100 million emergency FEMA contract for housing management and construction. Shaw also clinched a $100 million order on Friday from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Shaw Group spokesman Chris Sammons said Allbaugh was providing the company with "general consulting on business matters," and would not say whether he played a direct role in any of the Katrina deals. "We don't comment on specific consulting activities," he said. Yahoo! for Good Watch the Hurricane Katrina Shelter From The Storm concert ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Alcohol:Food vs fuel
Hello Pannir and all Hellow Keith Thank you very much for your kind reply. You're welcome, I hope we manage to do it. As Manick is from India , As Manick is from Malasia and also he move often there I have written to him about your dedicated to help all the farmer in the world , the only one such in net. Thankyou Pan, fortunately there are many projects, of many different kinds. Doesn't the same thing happen in Brazil too? And in Africa? Fermentation is the same as you think.But the distillation has three pot the bigpot wood fired at the bottom , the intermediate size pot at the top as the condensor with water and the small pot inside big one under the watercondensing pot with some suport The foto can make the understandin well . May be our list members can improve the degin . Have you seen this? http://www.manalagi.com/jamesplace/indonesia/sopi/index.html Culture Corner Archive: Makin' Moonshine ... from the juice of the lontar palm, in Indonesia. The other project I need help from you is to make solid gelbiofuel using the waste from Bio D process as this require low cost stoves I don't know how to do that. The biodiesel by-product cocktail burns, but not all of it burns and it doesn't burn very cleanly unless it's at high temperatures, much higher than in low cost stoves. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me9.html Journey to Forever's forced-air biofuel heater Prof. Michael Allen told me he thought it needed a burning temperature in excess of 1,000 deg C (1,800 deg F) and you will probably need a mean residence time in the Hot Box of about 5 seconds. And perhaps pre-heating and atomisation as well. I wish your hard work of JFT the great work need to have great future , making possible the links of people via web conference etc so that our journey together possible as I find JFT is simple useful and practical than many fotologs, weblogs . This list was our first network, it sure worked well. There are others too of various kinds, quite a lot of them. Some seem to be building themselves, offshoots. Organically grown. :-) Let me have the helping hand for your sleepless work But you always do Pan. Let's finish building the integrated small-scale biorefinery, fuel and food for local self-reliance. It's come a long way already. We've covered a lot of ground here this summer, with both fuel and food. We haven't built a biogas unit yet (next), nor distilled ethanol, but that's winter work anyway in Japan (we've found a local brewer to work with). Nor woodgas yet, also for winter. We've made good progress with project development in general, lots of changes coming I think. thanking you And you. Best wishes Keith yours Pannirselvasm Balaji can be of very much helpful and there are a lot of our list members . Yes, lots of Indian members, including many who don't post. They're welcome anyway of course, but maybe some of them can help with this. Best wishes Keith Thanking You Yours truely Pannirselvam On 9/10/05, Keith Addison mailto:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] orgmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol in the Philippines - just put it in and go?
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html Biofuels Library The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel by S.W. Mathewson Ten Speed Press © Copyright 1980 J.A. Diaz Publications (out of print) This excellent manual gives you all the information you need to get going with making your own alcohol fuel. Aimed at small-scale production, good chapters on fuel theory, everything about feedstocks, processing, fermentation, yeast, using ethanol, distillation. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual_ToC.html Chapter 2 BASIC FUEL THEORY http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual1-2.html#ch2 Chemical Composition Combustion Properties Volatility Octane Ratings Water Injection Exhaust Composition Engine Performance - Straight Alcohol Engine Performance - Alcohol Blends Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html Methods of Utilization Alcohol Blends Pure Alcohol Diesel Engines Engine Modification Alcohol Injection ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol in Engines was Materials, Venturis and Biodiesel
OK, Lets see if I have this straight, from what I have read; - Methanol is bad as a single fuel unless designed for it, but ok to disperse water as an additive like Heet, - Washed Biodiesel is a compound containing methanol so it does not react like methanol nor have its properties - But if you don't wash your Biodiesel it could have Will have. unreacted methanol and this could be bad. Is bad. (along with all the other gunk of not washing). - Biodiesel has had some good results as an additive in gas engines (small quantities) for upper engine lubrication.(and some 2 strokes) So if I have a grip on the above, [new question] I wonder if one should try to pull off stray methanol from the biodiesel (vacume recovery) before washing? or is this more labor than value? Labour aside, it might mean putting more energy in than you're getting out, it depends how you do it. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methreclaim Make your own biodiesel - page 2: Reclaiming excess methanol Best wishes Keith Wisdom to all, Jim Keith Addison wrote: Hi Gregg Hi Keith, I was just giving him info that I had run across in the owner's manual of a car I'd just bought to which I was thinking of adding a little BD with the gas. Once I saw that warning, I elected to err on the side of caution. I have seen that warning in at least 4 owner's manuals from different auto makers. But they were warning about methanol, not methyl esters. On the same basis, it needs oxygen to burn the fuel, will you give it water instead? Water has oxygen in it. I said I don't think, AFAIK: I'm not quite sure what you're saying Gregg, but I don't think methyl esters are a form of methanol any more than water is a form of oxygen. Free methanol in unwashed biodiesel is another matter though. If so, the warning just doesn't apply to biodiesel. As long as it's washed properly. We need a chemist's opinion. Best wishes Keith If the vehicle he was referring to is an older model, then he may not have any problems what so ever. As for use in his lawn mower engine, I love the smell of BD in the morning. Sincerely, Gregg */Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Hello Christopher and all Hi: Don't professional race car drivers use methanol in their engines? So why can't it be used in an ordinary car? I'm guessing race car engines should be more sensitive. Anyone care to comment? Best, Christopher I went looking some time back and foun this at a race site. I've seen some other references to parts of it. Seems those racecars have special engines, thoroughly corrosion-proofed, no exposed aluminium, the entire fuel system is internally coated with Teflon and stainless steel, the fuel bladder is made of a special compound, the valve seats are brass, no fuel is left in the engine overnight, the cylinder walls have to be fogged with oil so they won't rust. Turns aluminum to powder... There's this too: http://www.bera1.org/LA-buses.ht! ml Los Angeles Evaluation of Methanol- and Ethanol-Fueled Buses Gregg Davidson wrote: Hi Jim, The * VERY * first thing you need to make sure of when putting biodiesel in your gasoline engine is that the addition of methanol in * ANY * form will not damage your engine. *I strongly suggest* * you read your owners manual *. I'm not quite sure what you're saying Gregg, but I don't think methyl esters are a form of methanol any more than water is a form of oxygen. Free methanol in unwashed biodiesel is another matter though. Best wishes Keith *I recently bought a new vehicle out of couriousity looked at the fuel specs. Use of gasoline, and */* or gasoline-ethanol* *mixtures is allowed, but gasoline-methanol mixtures or the addition of methanol in any way, shape, form, or fashion! can damage or destroy vital engine components.* ** Respectfully, Gregg Davidson ** Thanks Greg, I decided against using it as an additive right now except into an old lawn mower that I have. ( no loss..probably should be in dump anyway) But I did use it in an old Kerosene lamp. I guess its just so cool to see something you made do what its supposed to (quality tests) then to see it burn so clean no smoke at all well thats just cool. I plan on having the ASTM testing done for quality before I use it in my Cumins.I have a long ways to go before I am at that level though. I am still looking for information
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power (was C-SPAN
Wind farms work in the 100 meters closest to the earth. Due to interaction with the ground it is relatively low energy compared to 1km and higher above the ground. In other words it is in the noise in terms of measurement. If you are worried about windturbines then you should worry aboutshelterbelts because they absorb energy too. KirkTarynToo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi JJJN,On Sep 10, 2005, at 9:47 PM, JJJN wrote: ... Ok one last question about wind farms. I told someone that wind farms have the _potential_ of changing the weather if there is enough energy extracted. I was laughed at and got that "look" _Now I did say potentia_l. The laws of thermodynamics say so. So can any one share some more insight to this potential possibility??This has been on my mind too, but I've not collected enough information to make an informed guess.The same question applies to tidal power and current power There have been proposals to anchor huge slow speed propellors in the gulf stream, to generate electric power. This seems (to me) to have the potential to extract enough energy to slow the stream. Even a fractional change in the energy delivered to the north atlantic might have extreme consequences for the ecosystem as well as weather.So anyone have informed guesses, or hard data, on the possible effects of pulling significant power out of tides, big water currents, jet streams, and ground level winds?Tarynhttp://ornae.com/ Yahoo! for Good Watch the Hurricane Katrina Shelter From The Storm concert ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] C-SPAN
Marty Phee [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked: Wouldn't putting in a sub-division or office park have the same effect on the wind as turbines do? Probably a greater effect on stopping the wind, as these structures are solid and rigid, while the wind turbines move in response to the wind and deflect the wind rather than stop it. Further, the buildings will present a much larger cross section to the wind than a wind turbine. So there's your new justification for stopping construction of oil refineries or nuclear power plants - they'll disrupt the wind and cause climate change. Darryl (tongue somewhat in cheek) snip unrelated material from original post Ok one last question about wind farms. I told someone that wind farms have the _potential_ of changing the weather if there is enough energy extracted. I was laughed at and got that look _Now I did say potentia_l. The laws of thermodynamics say so. So can any one share some more insight to this potential possibility?? -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] C-SPAN
In a message dated 9/11/2005 1:01:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ok one last question about wind farms. I told someone that wind farms have the _potential_ of changing the weather if there is enough energy extracted. I was laughed at and got that "look" _Now I did say potentia_l. The laws of thermodynamics say so. So can any one share some more insight to this potential possibility?? The Northern California Electric Company (PGE) reports significanttemperature changes in the immediate area around their windmill farms, with it's long term and wider area effects unknown. This was several years ago when I lived in the area. In the immediate area the ground is dried out, the temperature becomes hotter as the ground dry's out, the heat isspread thru the action of the windmill blades though they claim it evens out within a few yards above the top of the mechanism. In addition there was something about theground being dry effecting the rain pattern in a negative way.For some strange reason I seem to recall that this was a surprize as they expected the wind to cool the area off instead of raising the temperatures. In addition there is a small area in Alaska, someone here I'm sure will remember it when triggered, where they have tide water generated electricity. They report that again there is a significant immediate area increase in water temperature caused by the tidalwater processing, that evens out further on. Something about this working ok in such a small community but thatlarger scale tidal generatorswould be inefficient and inappropriate. That's all I remember, but hopefully it gives you some clues on where to find more info. Blessings Johanna ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] When Science Gets Censored
Keith Addison wrote: [snip] Copyright 2005 American Chemical Society I find it interesting that this comes from the American Chemical Society, when they are one of the organizations that seems to be intentionally generating uncertainty on this issue. Witness the Atrazine fight. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power
I suspect that large arrays of wind farms would have an effect similar to forests. We've chopped down a lot of forests over tha last few hundred years, so this doesn't worry me. Tidal power would slow the earth's rotation a little faster than it is slowing anyway from friction - probably not a big deal. Removing a significant fraction of energy from say the Gulf Stream strikes me as asking for trouble. Regarding jet streams, I would be worried if it were possible. They wiggle around so much that I can't imagine any practical method of tapping their energy. On Sun, 11 Sep 2005, TarynToo wrote: Hi JJJN, On Sep 10, 2005, at 9:47 PM, JJJN wrote: ... Ok one last question about wind farms. I told someone that wind farms have the _potential_ of changing the weather if there is enough energy extracted. I was laughed at and got that look _Now I did say potentia_l. The laws of thermodynamics say so. So can any one share some more insight to this potential possibility?? This has been on my mind too, but I've not collected enough information to make an informed guess. The same question applies to tidal power and current power There have been proposals to anchor huge slow speed propellors in the gulf stream, to generate electric power. This seems (to me) to have the potential to extract enough energy to slow the stream. Even a fractional change in the energy delivered to the north atlantic might have extreme consequences for the ecosystem as well as weather. So anyone have informed guesses, or hard data, on the possible effects of pulling significant power out of tides, big water currents, jet streams, and ground level winds? Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Rural energy problem nad Big oil
Dear Subramanian Thank you very much for bringing here the real problems there in India Every where the oil companies are against the renewable energy.The problem is the very big countries such as India , china , Brazil need not follow the model of the other countries expecting oil companies will solve the rural problems. Here in Brazil in the Amazonian rain forest area the diesel price is 8 times more than in the other place.In rural area of the India farmer need to plant rice in the night. some place more than 50 percent of the population do not know TV and what the energy.In India the energy is given to many and make energy cut .India can never become developed country with energy cut . If you have well followed regularly our list members thinking , the Keith our list coordinator effort is not to separate the political , technical , economical problems related with bio fuel. If you are not able to help the small farmer to produce their energy , most of the younger well qualified PhD from IIT will go to the country where there is energy such as Newzealand, Australia They will be pushed to work in the decentralised small cogeneration unit making fuel, food , feed from biomass . This has happened to my life and my professor and friend from IIT Delhi are very proud that the best Biochemical engineering graduate from IIT all have got employment in other countries , but this is not sustainable for India as the bio oil company do not care nothing for the same. Making one fuel for farmer need cannot be considered as crime as very well debated here for very long time and several farmers make here in Brazil alcohol and sell to oil using microdistillary too in Brazil and they fill the car too at their own risk.This also true for BioD. Our list the biggest dynamic list in internet.Why ? Here we make debate on complex subject to arrive at practical and simple solution.Thus biofuel use to indian farmer can be solved by methods well documented by Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever (JTF)http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html You know very well that the government in India is notable to stop illegal alcohol production . People , like you need to put make E10 AND BIOD and put in motor BIKES , CAR AND SEE THE SUSTAINABILITY rather than expecting Indian oil corporation and Indian government will solve the problems. See Keith work in JTF files , showing all home made decentralised , self help work is possible with fotos bringing here the international experience and I agree with you that this biofuel not the solution for all the place.As thr education and democracy work, I am sure that India is moving correctly in this fields and wish the younger well educated generation change the poverty and food problems due energy crisis.The country has research on Bullock cart in this decades, surel can set examples too decentralised biofuel production especially in rural areas. There in india if the chief ministers of the states are winning the election by the promise of free power for farmer , they should also bother about making the law first to get away the nergy problems , other wise the future will be dark for all there.Thus the problem is sustainablity and also the problem is the same as many developed and under developed one. Dear subramaniam you can help a lot , if you invite Keith there , make seminars , you see the The energy block out , energy crysis solved by the farmers Thanking you sd Pannirselvam On 9/11/05, subramanian D.V [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Mr. PanneerSelvam, I've been reading your inputs to this forum quite for sometime and your enthusiasm is really contagious! but there are problems for individuals for producing alcohol. The process is simple enough for small scale (back yard) production which you recommend. raw material such as sweet sorghum and sugar beet can be grown ; the economics of production is well known to those in the field. Special strains of sweet sorghum are available in National Research Institutes in Hyderabad, as well as at Indian Institute of Agricultural Research . But. The moment I announce that I'm going to make my own fuel ( for personal use) half a dozen Govt agencies will raid my place ! Production of ethyl alcohol isnot possible without Govt license (which is not easy to get for an individual), payment of several duties and taxes and bribes on the side. Even if the farmers make alcohol on the sly, on second thoughts they would rather drink it than use for fuel. You know the types in India. On the commercial scale Indian Sugar Mills Assocn have half a million litres of surplus ethanol forE05 in the whole country but then theIndian oil corporation is still dragging its feet issuing purchase tenders for ethanol. So these are the ground realities here. Still I keep hoping it will change in due course. Regards, Subramanian Pannirselvam P.V [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Manick I am native of South India.It is very true that Malaysia and
Re: [Biofuel] All plastic processor
PVC is rated at 160 psi at 73 deg F. as one (pressure) increases the other (temp) must decrease within limits of a range. thus if one takes PSI to 0 temp can increase to a maximum before deformation. I don't know that point... but I have tested it to 212 deg F with no deformations or glue problems. As far as I know 130 degrees is what BD's maximum is so I think it will be fine, but do some testing on some cheap small dia fittings first. I also like the way PVC holds the heat once it is at temp. luck and wisdom JJJN Marty Phee wrote: PVC will get soft as it's heated. Take this into account. I'm not sure how much heat is required though. I've seen people bend and stretch PVC using steam or propane torch. Also, PVC gives off dioxin when it burns. JJJN wrote: I may be getting in the middle here but FYI I just purchased some 8 Dia. Sch 40 PVC. It holds roughly 2.5 gallons per foot. they make a very nice concentric reducer glue fitting for the bottom that can be threaded to your choice of sizes. The Wall Thickness is heavy enough you can drill and tap side fittings for your pump/gage taps etc. you can get a tee with clean out also. 2 part marine (putty stick) sticks real well to if you prep with sand paper. I am making mine about 10 gallons each and making dual reactors with one wash tub. the pipe is about 5-6 bucks a foot and fittings run about 20 bucks each. Wisdom to all, Jim David Thornton wrote: ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries
And when you consider the heat of compression is still in the cycle of a gas turbine you see the problem with using compressed gas. The refrigeration at expansion has to be input from the environment or you see a loss on both ends. Kirk[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. The most efficient means seems to be using air compressed by windgenerated electricity to replace the air that would otherwise have to becompressed in a gas turbine. the compressor section of a gas turbineapparently uses roughly half the energy generated by the hot sectionturbine.If you do a search on "compressed air energy storage" you will findmention of a few such systems built or building.Doug WoodardSt. Catharines, OntarioOn Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Michael Redler wrote: The other thread [Solar panals or wind] is discussing the viability of an air car and made me wonder of excess wind energy can be stored as compressed air. Mike___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! for Good Watch the Hurricane Katrina Shelter From The Storm concert ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power
On Sep 11, 2005, at 3:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suspect that large arrays of wind farms would have an effect similar to forests. We've chopped down a lot of forests over tha last few hundred years, so this doesn't worry me. Tidal power would slow the earth's rotation a little faster than it is slowing anyway from friction - probably not a big deal. Removing a significant fraction of energy from say the Gulf Stream strikes me as asking for trouble. Regarding jet streams, I would be worried if it were possible. They wiggle around so much that I can't imagine any practical method of tapping their energy. I remember some blue sky stuff that proposed wind turbines hanging from high altitude balloons, anchored by long tethers. I suppose the tethers were supposed to carry current to the ground, though I'm now struck by the weight of a few miles of high tension copper or aluminum line. As far as staying in the jet stream, It seems like it would be trivial to design a self-steering system like that used for singlehand sailing. If the tether's anchor points were far enough apart, the system could probably swing a few miles north and south and around a hundred degrees or more of the compass, tracking the strongest winds. I think the jet stream shifts hundreds of miles, so I don't know what that would be worth. Anyway it was this kind of big scale extraction that seemed like it could have devastating consequences. Of course you'd need millions of acres of ground level turbines to extract the kind of energy that a wind farm hanging in the jet stream might capture. But I remember reading about this and the proposals to hang big blades in the gulf stream and thinking, Oh Jeez! Another massive engineering project with wildly unpredictable side effects! Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Linux, virii and Microsoft
I've had linux Samba servers stay up two years or so Felipe Navarrete wrote: Happy to hear a little linux talk on the list. Im a computer tech for FIU in Miami and use linux wherever possible. My home router is a pentium one 166 with 64 mb ram. Its been up for about five years with little or no maintenance. :-) Doug Foskey wrote: Hi Rumen, perhaps we should start a Linux Biodiesel list?? (LOL) I am using an IPcop firewall, which I find great. Easy to set up, and it will give you a secure wireless AP. On my machine I use Mepis linux, which is based on Debian. My systems are on 24/7. To my knowledge i have never been hacked. regards Doug PS: I feel it is important to give back to open source software in kind, so I have done some proofreading for documentation. Every little bit helps. On Tuesday 30 August 2005 2:46, Rumen Slavov wrote: Hi all,Hi Mike, Grutje, Arden, you have never been alone!Linuxoids are all over the world! MS has been kicked out from Japan, China and even from Bavaria! Dear Mike,rarely there are homes with just one comp.In my house there are 4 and the net comes trough firewalled router on Linux kernel, supplying two more houses with shared Internet. This situation lasts for 2,5 years now and we all have not experienced any troubles.My comp is dual boot - Linux/XP, `kuz my son likes to play games under Windows, but even in this case everything goes smooth. I would like to ask for assistance again - do somebody knows how perform quality test of BD using paper chromatography? Best to all R.Slavov __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] More pork for Halliburton, Bechtel and Shaw
I'm shocked, shocked, to find out that steering has occured in Washington DC. Welcome to DC. Kirk McLoren wrote: http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/10/katrina.contracts.reut/index.html Firms with White House ties get Katrina contracts FEMA taps Halliburton subsidiary, Shaw Group, Bechtel for cleanup Saturday, September 10, 2005; Posted: 1:26 p.m. EDT (17:26 GMT) SPECIAL REPORT http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/katrina/ *WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Companies with ties to the Bush White House and the former head of FEMA are clinching some of the administration's first disaster relief and reconstruction contracts in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.* At least two major corporate clients of lobbyist Joe Allbaugh, President Bush's former campaign manager and a former head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, have already been tapped to start recovery work along the battered Gulf Coast. One is Shaw Group Inc. and the other is Halliburton Co. subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root. Vice President Dick Cheney is a former head of Halliburton. Bechtel National Inc., a unit of San Francisco-based Bechtel Corp., has also been selected by FEMA to provide short-term housing for people displaced by the hurricane. Bush named Bechtel's CEO to his Export Council and put the former CEO of Bechtel Energy in charge of the Overseas Private Investment Corporation. Experts say it has been common practice in both Republican and Democratic administrations for policy makers to take lobbying jobs once they leave office, and many of the same companies seeking contracts in the wake of Hurricane Katrina have already received billions of dollars for work in Iraq. Halliburton alone has earned more than $9 billion. Pentagon audits released by Democrats in June showed $1.03 billion in questioned costs and $422 million in unsupported costs for Halliburton's work in Iraq. Watchdog groups take notice But the web of Bush administration connections is attracting renewed attention from watchdog groups in the post-Katrina reconstruction rush. Congress has already appropriated more than $60 billion in emergency funding as a down payment on recovery efforts projected to cost well over $100 billion. The government has got to stop stacking senior positions with people who are repeatedly cashing in on the public trust in order to further private commercial interests, said Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project on Government Oversight. Bush appointees at Halliburton Allbaugh formally registered as a lobbyist for Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root in February. In lobbying disclosure forms filed with the Senate, Allbaugh said his goal was to educate the congressional and executive branch on defense, disaster relief and homeland security issues affecting Kellogg Brown and Root. Melissa Norcross, a Halliburton spokeswoman, said Allbaugh has not, since he was hired, consulted on any specific contracts that the company is considering pursuing, nor has he been tasked by the company with any lobbying responsibilities. Allbaugh is also a friend of Michael Brown, director of FEMA who was removed as head of Katrina disaster relief and sent back to Washington amid allegations he had padded his resume -- which he denies. A few months after Allbaugh was hired by Halliburton, the company retained another high-level Bush appointee, Kirk Van Tine. Van Tine registered as a lobbyist for Halliburton six months after resigning as deputy transportation secretary, a position he held from December 2003 to December 2004. On Friday, Kellogg Brown Root received $29.8 million in Pentagon contracts to begin rebuilding Navy bases in Louisiana and Mississippi. Norcross said the work was covered under a contract that the company negotiated before Allbaugh was hired. Cheney's relationship with Halliburton Halliburton continues to be a source of income for Cheney, who served as its chief executive officer from 1995 until 2000 when he joined the Republican ticket for the White House. According to tax filings released in April, Cheney's income included $194,852 in deferred pay from the company, which has also won billion-dollar government contracts in Iraq. Cheney's office said the amount of deferred compensation is fixed and is not affected by Halliburton's current economic performance or earnings. Allbaugh's other major client, Baton Rouge-based Shaw Group, has updated its Web site to say: Hurricane Recovery Projects -- Apply Here! Shaw said on Thursday it has received a $100 million emergency FEMA contract for housing management and construction. Shaw also clinched a $100 million order on Friday from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Shaw Group spokesman Chris Sammons said Allbaugh was providing the company with general consulting on
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power
Really? Genuine scam? I read about it in Wired or Pop Sci, figured it was just a master's thesis, or some defense proposal. Taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 11, 2005, at 5:57 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: *Yeah, I invested in that. Ponzi scheme. TarynToo wrote: ... I remember some blue sky stuff that proposed wind turbines hanging from high altitude balloons, anchored by long tethers. I suppose the tethers were supposed to carry current to the ground, though I'm now struck by the weight of a few miles of high tension copper or aluminum line. As far as staying in the jet stream, It seems like it would be trivial to design a self-steering system like that used for singlehand sailing. If the tether's anchor points were far enough apart, the system could probably swing a few miles north and south and around a hundred degrees or more of the compass, tracking the strongest winds. I think the jet stream shifts hundreds of miles, so I don't know what that would be worth. Anyway it was this kind of big scale extraction that seemed like it could have devastating consequences. Of course you'd need millions of acres of ground level turbines to extract the kind of energy that a wind farm hanging in the jet stream might capture. But I remember reading about this and the proposals to hang big blades in the gulf stream and thinking, Oh Jeez! Another massive engineering project with wildly unpredictable side effects! Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power
No, I was being silly! I prefer to blow my money building things like BD reactors or heat transfer devices for wood stoves! TarynToo wrote: Really? Genuine scam? I read about it in Wired or Pop Sci, figured it was just a master's thesis, or some defense proposal. Taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 11, 2005, at 5:57 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: *Yeah, I invested in that. Ponzi scheme. TarynToo wrote: ... I remember some blue sky stuff that proposed wind turbines hanging from high altitude balloons, anchored by long tethers. I suppose the tethers were supposed to carry current to the ground, though I'm now struck by the weight of a few miles of high tension copper or aluminum line. As far as staying in the jet stream, It seems like it would be trivial to design a self-steering system like that used for singlehand sailing. If the tether's anchor points were far enough apart, the system could probably swing a few miles north and south and around a hundred degrees or more of the compass, tracking the strongest winds. I think the jet stream shifts hundreds of miles, so I don't know what that would be worth. Anyway it was this kind of big scale extraction that seemed like it could have devastating consequences. Of course you'd need millions of acres of ground level turbines to extract the kind of energy that a wind farm hanging in the jet stream might capture. But I remember reading about this and the proposals to hang big blades in the gulf stream and thinking, Oh Jeez! Another massive engineering project with wildly unpredictable side effects! Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power
Sometimes engineering proposals are just gee whiz stuff. Just to show that you are capable of thinking outside the box. They don't have to have much to do with practicality. The hazard to air navigation is enough to scuttle this idea let alone the liability considerations of falling stuff. Just try to erect a tower and see the restraints and then imagine what would happen should you decide you want to hang this apparatus several km in the sky. We used to have sayings to describe this -- Such as "Here's a neat idea --Course it's as practical as airbrakes on an ant but still neat". Well, megawatt turbines way up in the sky would qualify as one of these. Neat. KirkTarynToo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 11, 2005, at 3:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suspect that large arrays of wind farms would have an effect similar to forests. We've chopped down a lot of forests over tha last few hundred years, so this doesn't worry me. Tidal power would slow the earth's rotation a little faster than it is slowing anyway from friction - probably not a big deal. Removing a significant fraction of energy from say the Gulf Stream strikes me as asking for trouble. Regarding jet streams, I would be worried if it were possible. They wiggle around so much that I can't imagine any practical method of tapping their energy.I remember some blue sky stuff that proposed wind turbines hanging from high altitude balloons, anchored by long tethers. I suppose the tethers were supposed to carry current to the ground, though I'm now struck by the weight of a few miles of high tension copper or aluminum line. As far as staying in the jet stream, It seems like it would be trivial to design a self-steering system like that used for singlehand sailing. If the tether's anchor points were far enough apart, the system could probably swing a few miles north and south and around a hundred degrees or more of the compass, tracking the strongest winds. I think the jet stream shifts hundreds of miles, so I don't know what that would be worth.Anyway it was this kind of big scale extraction that seemed like it could have devastating consequences. Of course you'd need millions of acres of ground level turbines to extract the kind of energy that a wind farm hanging in the jet stream might capture.But I remember reading about this and the proposals to hang big blades in the gulf stream and thinking, "Oh Jeez! Another massive engineering project with wildly unpredictable side effects!Tarynhttp://ornae.com/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! for Good Watch the Hurricane Katrina Shelter From The Storm concert ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] More pork for Halliburton, Bechtel and Shaw
Me too. I thought this only happened at the UN. Say, what do you suppose the chances are that Bush will ask Paul Volker to lead an independnet investigation of Halliburton? :-) Rick Mike Weaver wrote: I'm shocked, shocked, to find out that steering has occured in Washington DC. Welcome to DC. Kirk McLoren wrote: http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/10/katrina.contracts.reut/index.html Firms with White House ties get Katrina contracts FEMA taps Halliburton subsidiary, Shaw Group, Bechtel for cleanup Saturday, September 10, 2005; Posted: 1:26 p.m. EDT (17:26 GMT) SPECIAL REPORT http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/katrina/ *WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Companies with ties to the Bush White House and the former head of FEMA are clinching some of the administration's first disaster relief and reconstruction contracts in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.* At least two major corporate clients of lobbyist Joe Allbaugh, President Bush's former campaign manager and a former head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, have already been tapped to start recovery work along the battered Gulf Coast. One is Shaw Group Inc. and the other is Halliburton Co. subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root. Vice President Dick Cheney is a former head of Halliburton. Bechtel National Inc., a unit of San Francisco-based Bechtel Corp., has also been selected by FEMA to provide short-term housing for people displaced by the hurricane. Bush named Bechtel's CEO to his Export Council and put the former CEO of Bechtel Energy in charge of the Overseas Private Investment Corporation. Experts say it has been common practice in both Republican and Democratic administrations for policy makers to take lobbying jobs once they leave office, and many of the same companies seeking contracts in the wake of Hurricane Katrina have already received billions of dollars for work in Iraq. Halliburton alone has earned more than $9 billion. Pentagon audits released by Democrats in June showed $1.03 billion in "questioned" costs and $422 million in "unsupported" costs for Halliburton's work in Iraq. Watchdog groups take notice But the web of Bush administration connections is attracting renewed attention from watchdog groups in the post-Katrina reconstruction rush. Congress has already appropriated more than $60 billion in emergency funding as a down payment on recovery efforts projected to cost well over $100 billion. "The government has got to stop stacking senior positions with people who are repeatedly cashing in on the public trust in order to further private commercial interests," said Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project on Government Oversight. Bush appointees at Halliburton Allbaugh formally registered as a lobbyist for Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root in February. In lobbying disclosure forms filed with the Senate, Allbaugh said his goal was to "educate the congressional and executive branch on defense, disaster relief and homeland security issues affecting Kellogg Brown and Root." Melissa Norcross, a Halliburton spokeswoman, said Allbaugh has not, since he was hired, "consulted on any specific contracts that the company is considering pursuing, nor has he been tasked by the company with any lobbying responsibilities." Allbaugh is also a friend of Michael Brown, director of FEMA who was removed as head of Katrina disaster relief and sent back to Washington amid allegations he had padded his resume -- which he denies. A few months after Allbaugh was hired by Halliburton, the company retained another high-level Bush appointee, Kirk Van Tine. Van Tine registered as a lobbyist for Halliburton six months after resigning as deputy transportation secretary, a position he held from December 2003 to December 2004. On Friday, Kellogg Brown Root received $29.8 million in Pentagon contracts to begin rebuilding Navy bases in Louisiana and Mississippi. Norcross said the work was covered under a contract that the company negotiated before Allbaugh was hired. Cheney's relationship with Halliburton Halliburton continues to be a source of income for Cheney, who served as its chief executive officer from 1995 until 2000 when he joined the Republican ticket for the White House. According to tax filings released in April, Cheney's income included $194,852 in deferred pay from the company, which has also won billion-dollar government contracts in Iraq. Cheney's office said the amount of deferred compensation is fixed and is not affected by Halliburton's current economic performance or earnings. Allbaugh's other major client, Baton Rouge-based Shaw Group, has updated its Web site to say: "Hurricane Recovery Projects -- Apply Here!" Shaw said on Thursday it has received a $100 million emergency FEMA contract for housing management and construction. Shaw also clinched a $100 million order on Friday from
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power
Oh...doh...fooled me. I was looking forward to hearing all the good dirt... Mostly I blow my money maintaining my museum of ancient Mac, BSD, Solaris, Linux Boxen. Foolishly, I gave away my CBM PETs and C64s, but I still have my KIM1! Taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 11, 2005, at 9:21 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: No, I was being silly! I prefer to blow my money building things like BD reactors or heat transfer devices for wood stoves! TarynToo wrote: Really? Genuine scam? I read about it in Wired or Pop Sci, figured it was just a master's thesis, or some defense proposal. Taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 11, 2005, at 5:57 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: *Yeah, I invested in that. Ponzi scheme. TarynToo wrote: ... I remember some blue sky stuff that proposed wind turbines hanging from high altitude balloons, anchored by long tethers. I suppose the tethers were supposed to carry current to the ground, though I'm now struck by the weight of a few miles of high tension copper or aluminum line. As far as staying in the jet stream, It seems like it would be trivial to design a self-steering system like that used for singlehand sailing. If the tether's anchor points were far enough apart, the system could probably swing a few miles north and south and around a hundred degrees or more of the compass, tracking the strongest winds. I think the jet stream shifts hundreds of miles, so I don't know what that would be worth. Anyway it was this kind of big scale extraction that seemed like it could have devastating consequences. Of course you'd need millions of acres of ground level turbines to extract the kind of energy that a wind farm hanging in the jet stream might capture. But I remember reading about this and the proposals to hang big blades in the gulf stream and thinking, Oh Jeez! Another massive engineering project with wildly unpredictable side effects! Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
