Re: [biofuel] Which is better for the environment?

[Greg and April]

No problem, I am planning on getting my own small farm/ranch in the next
5-10 yrs., mean while I have been busy doing the learing now. If you have
more questions/problems, let me know, I might just have an answer.

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: Kim  Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:01
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Which is better for the environment?


 Thanks for the information.  I generally brain tan the skins, but using
 the rest I had not thought of, other than to feed the buzzards, that is.
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim

 Greg and April wrote:

 
  - Original Message -
  From: Kim  Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 07:49
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Which is better for the environment?
 
 
   
Besides, my husband and I don't create enough manure to revitalize 20
acres, we need the help of our animals.
   
 
  Actualy you still may be in good condition to better the soil, on your
farm.
   From you buchering opperation, the skin, hair, feathers and guts are
  high in
  Nitrogen, the bones can be ground up and will provide a little Nitrogen,
  plenty of Calicum as well as some Potassium, and Phospherous.  If you
burn
  the bone, ( need a hot fire ) it will decrease the amount of N, but, it
will
  make it easier to grind, and if you use hard wood to burn it and use the
  ashes, you will add more Potassium, as well as some other macro, and,
some
  micro nutrents.  Wood ashes has a limeing effect on soil ( but, you need
  more to obtain the same amount ), but, adds the extra nutrents as well.
 
  Check out Kura Clover, at this web site ( I think you will like what you
  see ), it is about useing Kura Clover as a living mulch:
 
 
http://agron.scijournals.org/cgi/mjgca?sendit=Get+All+Checked+Abstract%28s%2
 
9SEARCHID=1029430130370_860TITLEABSTRACT=Kura+clover%2CLiving+Mulch+JOURN
  ALCODE=FIRSTINDEX=0hits=10RESULTFORMAT=gca=agrojnl%3B92%2F4%2F698
 
  Greg H.
 
 
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69:HM/A=1175219/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_youH1/g22lp?Tar
get=mm/g22lp.tmpl
 
 
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Re: [biofuel] Looking for new transportation (was SUV's on biofuel)

[Greg and April]

I've had my fill of cracking my head or my knees in small cars, and I have a
growing family that even now is pushing the limits of the cars we have.  Do
you know if the BJ60's are DI or IDI?

Greg H.


- Original Message -
From: Jean-Leon Morin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 13:42
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Looking for new transportation (was SUV's on biofuel)



 BJ60's make for good vehicles, but don't buy one if you are looking to
 replace a small car. They are a 4wd, a heavy 4wd. Not an SUV by any means,
 they are the real thing. Solid axles, body on chassis, 6 bolt wheels, etc
 etc etc. If you are looking for a small car, a landcruiser would be
 overkill. On the other hand, they are easily repaired by the home mechanic
 and are fairly efficient if equipped with freewheeling hubs and narrow
 tires. I would actually recommend this over many larger diesel cars (MB
300,
 for example) as the fairly simple design will make for a much more home
 repair friendly vehicle. This, plus the above reproach reliability.




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Re: [biofuel] Looking for new transportation (was SUV's on biofuel)

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: Jean-Leon Morin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 13:42
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Looking for new transportation (was SUV's on biofuel)



 If you are in the US, and want a canadian Landcruiser, get one with the 3B
 diesel engine (BJ-XX), 4 cylinder, preferably from the prairies, where
rust
 is much less of a problem.


The prairies? Sorry, I while I do know a little about Canada, the prairies
referance escapes me.

Greg H.


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Re: [biofuel] diesel engine after market products?

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: Mark Payton 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 06:18
Subject: [biofuel] diesel engine after market products?


 I am aware that there have been some significant advances in diesel 
 technology in the last few years. One notable improvement is the common 
 rail technology. One of my few complaints with my 85 Mercedes Diesel is the 
 sluggishness on acceleration, which the common rail is supposed to correct.
 
 Does anyone know whether there are after-market products that bring this or 
 any of the other improvements to older engines?
 

I did a quick web search about turbos and water injection, and this is just a 
sample of what I found. I did not check out the web sights very close but some 
of the info looks to be promising.

Greg H.

Turbo info:

http://www.turbofast.com.au/custom.html

http://www.turboglide.com.au/

http://fiss.com/Banks/fibanks99.htm



Water injection info:

http://home.ccci.org/Key_Information/2ndWaterInjection.htm

http://www.frii.com/~maphill/wi.html

http://www.510again.com/articles/watering/watering.html

http://www.racetep.com/wik.html

http://www.better-mileage.com/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[biofuel] Trucks for sale

[Greg and April]

Anybody interested in a military surplus 2 1/2 ton truck with multi-fuel
engine?

Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Trucks for sale

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 09:46
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Trucks for sale


 What year and how much?  Richard
 

They are up for auction. Starting as low as $35.00 US

Goto http://www.govliquidation.com/

Type Multi Fuel Truck into the search.

Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Trucks for sale

[Greg and April]

 H7  hmmm.   I missed that on the page I was looking.  Still I'm going to
check out the site from time to time.

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: Neil and Adele Craven [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 16:21
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Trucks for sale


  H7Unserviceable - condemned/ reparable
  Explanation:
  Material which has been determined to be unserviceable and does not
meet repair criteria; Type I shelf life material that has passed the
expiration date, and Type II shelf life material that has passed the
expiration date and cannot be extended. NOTE: Classify obsolete and excess
material to its proper condition before consigning to the DRMO. DO NOT
classify material in supply condition H unless it is truly unserviceable and
does not meet repair criteria. ¦


  Seems that they are classified H7 see above explanation.

  47k original purchase cost, 19k miles unservicable , perhaps that means
never serviced.

  Could be a project for someone who likes brick walls and collisions
between same and forehead.

  Neil



  - Original Message -
  From: Greg and April
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 2:31 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Trucks for sale



  - Original Message -
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 09:46
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Trucks for sale


   What year and how much?  Richard
  

  They are up for auction. Starting as low as $35.00 US

  Goto http://www.govliquidation.com/

  Type Multi Fuel Truck into the search.

  Greg H.



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[biofuel] Hydrogen from a glucose solution

[Greg and April]

Researchers say they have found a relatively effortless way to extract the
clean fuel source hydrogen from a glucose solution.


http://abcnews.go.com/wire/SciTech/reuters20020828_346.html?partner=earthlin
k


Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Re: Polyvinyl Alcohol (PVA) Membranes to dehydrate water-alcohol mixtures

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: womplex_oo1 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 22:53
Subject: [biofuel] Re: Polyvinyl Alcohol (PVA) Membranes to dehydrate
water-alcohol mixtures


 and I can't download the
 documents, say in pdf format, so that i can read them offline

There are many ways to read web documents off line. The one that I use the
most is to send my self an e-mail of the page, (and save it on computer as a
HTML) one reasion I like this one the best is because I can change the size
of the font with out much hasle (this can help with the eye strain).  I have
found that a few times, I may have to goto RTF (Rich Text Format) for the
e-mail then cut or copy-then paste.  If for some reasion that does not work,
I put it in My Favorites and mark it for off line viewing and down load
the web page.



 One thing I've learned from business: the more components of a
 machine that you can make yourself, the lower your business costs.
 What small start-up entrepreneurs need is comprehensive how-to
 information,

 - growing fungi  bacteria,
 - extracting enzymes,
 - appropriate containers for liquid processing,
 - modular scalable steam explosion pre-processing equipment you can
 build yourself,
 - growing yeast,
 - fermentation,
 - making your own polyvinyl alcohol membranes,


I have found that all I need to do is ask on this list, and more often than
not someone might have the answer, your question might be missed, and you
might have to ask again, but, hey we are all here for learning and shareing
info.


Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Re: Cellulose - to - Sugar Preprocessing

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: womplex_oo1 
Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 07:55
Subject: [biofuel] Re: Cellulose - to - Sugar Preprocessing


 According to Iogen only a small amount of cereal straw is mixed back
 into the soil.  The larger fraction is actually sent to a landfill or
 burned by farmers.

Burning is not a waste, it puts potash and calcium right back into the soil,
in a form that is usable by plants with in a few weeks (if not days).

 This is what makes it a good, albeit limited,
 feedstock for their bioethanol plant.  My plan removes the supply of
 cellulose from the landbased farms, from the established methods and
 practices of traditional farming.

By removing waste cellulose from farms, you don't have a chance to renew the
soil, that is the problem with sending it to a landfill.  I have a hard time
believing that more than a fraction of cellulose from farms goes to a
landfill, I grew up in farm country, and I never saw it being removed, or
burned for that matter, they left it over winter and plowed it right back
into the soil to help prevent erosion.

I would bet that most cellulose waste in landfills comes from the average
suburban family home in the form of lawn clippings, bush prunings and other
forms city life.I see trash bags full of lawn clippings all up and down
my street during summer and leaves in the fall,  and the average Christmas
tree just after Christmas,  you would be doing the world a great favor to
use this trash as a resource.


 Oceanic kelp, green algae, or
 water hyacinth, has the potential to be grown over a far larger area
 than could be grown on land.

While it sounds nice, it to is a finite resource due to the fact that there
is only so many areas that it may be grown.

Oceanic kelp needs certain parameters in which to grow and is subject to
being ripped and shredded by a storm.

Water hyacinth  needs warmth and light, it does not do well in temperate
climates, at best you might get one crop. Another problem with water
hyacinth, is the fact that it has a high bulk to mass ratio. This means you
would have a poor energy return.

Another  problem with your idea of using oceanic kelp, green algae, or water
hyacinth is the fact that they are low ( little to none in the case of
algae ) in cellulose comparatively to other crops, this also means a poor
energy return *in addition to any other poor energy modifiers.

 Excess production can be used as
 fertilizer for land-based crops.

Poor net return, due to the fact that you would have to spend energy to
concentrate the beneficial elements, in order to get around the cost of
shipping, which is another energy drain.

 And kelp is known to be one of the
 most beneficial and productive marine habitats for fish, mollusks,
 crustaceans, seabirds, etc.

If you don't disturb it.

 Other types of aquaculture could sprout
 up alongside the kelp rafts as a result.  And creating a manmade
 carbon sink should delite the hardcore environmentalists.

A better manmade carbon sink, would be to do some thing with the mountains
of used tires, like turning them into artificial reefs, housing, new tires,
or some other things so that they don't just sit around, waiting to catch
fire and make a real mess.

Another idea for a manmade carbon sink would be to make charcoal with the
indirect method, use resulting gases to make methanol and other non-benzene
products ( of course use the methanol to make bio-diesel ) then take the
resulting charcoal, mix with a lime cement and few other things to make it
sink, and deep six it.  This way you are taking carbon out of the atmosphere
and putting it back into the earth.

Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Re: Cellulose - to - Sugar Preprocessing

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: womplex_oo1 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 19:23
Subject: [biofuel] Re: Cellulose - to - Sugar Preprocessing



 I suggested artificial platforms, like scaffolding, suspended 15
 meters under water beneith buoys, to provide a surface for the kelp
 forest to root.  These rafts could be anchored in deep water where
 the ocean floor is barren.


Possible, some deep water oil platforms use technology similar to this.

 If a storm hits, waves and high winds could dislodge the kelp
 forest.  My idea is to sink the kelp raft, pulling it deeper under
 water using a winch secured to the seafloor.  If you sink it an
 additional 50 meters, not even a hurricane could harm it.  When the
 storm passes, float it again.  A few hours in deep water might not
 harm the kelp.

The use of buoyancy tanks might be better than a winch, more energy
effective.


 I like kelp because it has natural floatation sacs.  As it grows the
 artifical raft will not require additional buoys.  Seaweed that does
 not float would require added infrastructure and expense.


Not true, if I remember right the edible seaweed Nori is nonfloating, but
cultivated on a fairly large scale with the use of ropes.


 Can you tell me the percent by mass of cellulose in kelp?

No, but if you got a hold of one of the oceanic insatutes, or a marine
biologist they might.

 Can you
 name an ocean vegetation that would be better?

No I can't, I doubt there is good one.  The problem is that on land, it is
the cellulose that holds the tree or the blade of grass, up agents gravity,
and makes it strong.   For water plants, they don't have to hold themselves
up, so they don't put the energy into building unneeded cellulose structure,
they can get away with the bare minimum of plant structure needed to support
it's life, it is partly this fact that allows it to grow so fast.


 A skimmer (similar to those that clean up oil spills, could be used
 to harvest kelp.

Kelp is already used in many commercial products from makeup to some
ingredients in some ice creams (yummy).  And there are boats that harvest
kelp at just the right depth so that they can come back in a week or so and
harvest again.

 Concentrating the beneficial elements can be
 accomplished by crushing the kelp between rollers as it is pulled
 into the boat.  Most of the water weight would be released back into
 the ocean, leaving dry plant matter for later processing.

Not really, because the beneficial elements, are primary in liquid form,
again we are back to the problem of plants that grow in water, just really
don't have all that much cellulose in them comparatively.

Greg H.




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[biofuel] Pulse Jet Engines (was Unique heat engine)

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 09:23
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Unique heat engine


  The principle is a
 propulsion engine (like the ones in the V1 second world war missile),
 encapsulated by a water tank.

I found pulse Jet plans (as well as ramjet plans) on the internet last year,
I think that they cost all of $15-20 bucks.  Just doing a new search I found
some new sights with plans:

http://home3.inet.tele.dk/kennethm/

http://www.geocities.com/pulse_jet_2000/

This is just a couple of sights. and the plans might be modified for use
with BioDiesel.

Greg H.



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[biofuel] Canadan Land Cruisers

[Greg and April]

Hey folks,
I was wondering, if anyone knew what it takes to buy a Land Cruiser in
Canada and bring it back over the border.  I have found about half a dozen
different Diesel Land Cruisers in various parts of Canada and wanted to know
if there what special procedures and problems I might face bringing it back
to the states.

Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] ethanol gel

[Greg and April]

See if an Ping Pong ball will dissolve in it.  If it does, I think that it
might be true about nitrocellulose.

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 10:25
Subject: [biofuel] ethanol gel


 Anyone know how to make this stuff? Nice for cooking fuel.

 Thanks

 Keith





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Re: [biofuel] Nanotubes

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison 

 Anyway, isn't this what SF writers call a monofilament?

Monofilament is only one molecule/atom thick in total from edge to edge (
think of monofilament fishing line, not very thin, but, that is due to the
size of the molecule in the first place ).  The Buckytubes have a thickness
of one carbon atom for each wall, so, that is two walls plus the interior of
the cylinder in thickness total.  From what I understand of the technology,
the maximum diameter of a Buckytube is only limited but the molecular
strength of the material ( carbon in this case ).

SF
 monofilaments can cut through anything. If it's that type of
 monofilament, 500 bucks for a gram of it would be a good buy - that
 sounds like a whole lot of nanotube.

That would be, if it was one continuous tube. Most are shorter that than
anyone of the letters in this e-mail.


Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Ram Press has arrived!

[Greg and April]

I wonder how much oil is in pumpkin seed?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 12:44
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ram Press has arrived!


 
 Amen to all that! Also the dried stalks have good fuel value. And in the
 years I'm rotating with flax, I get fiber for linen, pumpkins make
 pumpkin pie and jack-o-lanterns, etc. etc.
 




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Re: [biofuel] Nanotubes

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 15:43
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Nanotubes


 I like my billhook.

Nothing like a good solid work knife.

Well, it's a cross
 between a billhook and a bolo, made for me by a village blacksmith in
 the Philippines. There's a picture of it here - scroll down a bit:
 http://journeytoforever.org/at_billhook.html

When my father died, I inherited his old navy bolo. I remember many a winter
night watching as he would split a log at the fireplace hearth with that
bolo if it was a bit to big, or bringing it out if he needed to do some
light chopping around the yard.


 We need a few of these I think:
 http://www.coldsteel.com/gurkkukri.html
 Gurkha Kukri's

My father got a Kukri just before he got so ill that he could not use it,
and ended up never using it, but, I needed to take down a sunflower at one
point.  I went out thinking I could break it down but no, this thing was
tough, cut thru it with a pocket knife -- not.  So I dug out the Kukri and
gave it a couple of whacks and down she came.

Greg H.





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Re: [biofuel] Biogas Digester

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel List biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 02:46
Subject: [biofuel] Biogas Digester



 Recently, there have been addenda to the anaerobic digestion schemes
 involving an aerobic post-processing step - no doubt in response to the
 volatile fatty acids problem that you mentioned, though that is not
 stated in anything I've seen.


I seem to remember a process that digester effluent/sludge is mixed with
aspen chips and then allowed to compost, the result being marketed as an
artificial peat from renewable recourses.

Of course I could just be remembering 2 or 3 things and putting them
together.

Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] OT: 9-20-02 CBS 48 Hours Episode on Superbugs: Anti-Biotic-Resistant Bugs

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 19:47
Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: 9-20-02 CBS 48 Hours Episode on Superbugs:
Anti-Biotic-Resistant Bugs



 In this case, for example, I've *never heard mention of this issue* from
the Bush
 Administration.  Silence, in the face of such a possible catastrophe, is
wrong.  Now, some
 may say that they disagree with the science of the matter, and so do not
think action is
 warranted.  Let them say that.  We have made a decent-enough case so that
it should be
 publicly discussed.


It has been a little known problem ( most cases in hospitals ) since the
70's ( I heard about it in the early to mid 80's), only in the last few
years has it become more prevalent due in part that anti-biotics have become
such a part of every day life in the last 5-10 years.

Walk down the soap section in the supermarket and you will see at least half
a dozen that claim 'anti-biotic' abilities, for that matter,  look at the
Lysol advertisements, they say out right anti-bacterial action - kills
99.9% of germs (what about that .1% that it does not kill?).  Go to the
first aid area of the same store, and you will see dozens of first aid
cream's, gel's, and spray's that are anti-bacterial in nature.

Modern farm practices such as crowded and  unsanitary condition's contribute
to disease ( think the middle ages and the plague ), so the farmers give
medicine to prevent illness.   Certain anti-biotics are also known to help
animals gain weight faster so to get the fastest weight gain possible the
animals are fed these anti-biotics by the pound. These same anti-biotics get
to humans in the form of hamburgers, chicken, and pork.  This has grown from
almost nothing in the late 60's early 70's to a multi-million ( possibly
billion ) dollar industry today.

 The CBS piece seemed to end with some revolutionary (claimed) Russian
treatment.  It was,
 you know, that little bit of obligatory uplifting stuff at the end, and I
thought it took
 away the proper focus, but whatever.  The emergency-level aspect of the
case had been made
 ok in the first part of the piece.

It is not revolutionary, it was under investigation in the U.S. before
penicillin was discovered, when penicillin was discovered, the penicillin
was first choice because it is not as time consuming to developed as the
phages. Phages are very time consuming to develope, but, once they are, they
will do the job better that anti-biotics.


 I'm not sure if it got down to what I would say is the principle of the
matter: the
 failure to grasp that some of the principles of evolution would come into
play and make
 many medical innovations subject to the ability of some enemy
micro-organisms to evolve
 and change and adapt (over generations) to drugs designed to defeat them.
In fact, the
 somewhat euphoric statements they seemed to make about the Russian
treatment at the end (I
 was only 1/4 listening) reflected, perhaps, a *failure* to grasp the
underlying
 principles, since what happens if the treatment is valid and we *repeat*
the same over-use
 of the method?

The way anti-biotics work, is they poison the bacteria. Think of the
bacteria as ultra small rats, and the doctor as the exterminator, the doctor
prescribes the anti-biotic which poisons the bacteria. Like rats, if a
bacteria does not get a full dose of the poison, they become used to it, and
it then doesn't work like it should even in higher doses.

This should not be able to happen with phages, because they look upon
bacteria as food. Think of the bacteria as micro passenger pigeons that were
hunted to extinction and the phages as the human hunters of the pigeons. A
phages lives (if you can call it that) to kill bacteria, they infect the
bacteria with their own DNA then uses the bacteria own body to multiply new
phages inside, and when the new phages burst out the bacteria is dead.
Unlike the anti-biotic poison, the bacteria do not have a chance to build up
an immunity.


Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass underrated...

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 20:07
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass
underrated...


 Another hydrogen problem I haven't heard discussed is that it
 contracts chemically 1/3 on burning according to
 
 H2 + 1/2 O2 [1.5 moles or voumes] === H2O [1 mole]
 
 by contrast, methane gets full value, since CH4 + 2 O2 [3 moles]
 === CO2 + 2 H2O [3moles]

 I did not understand this, nor why it is supposed to be a big problem.

The typical car works with the expansion of gas, not the contraction which
happens with H2. The H2 and the needed amount of O2 needed to burn the H2,
take up more space than the H2O vapor.  Try to develop a engine that runs by
producing a vacuum.


 I didn't really find this piece, overall, to be as compelling an
indictment of H2 as the
 author I guess intended.  He did not mention what I have said before is my
own top
 objection to H2 (the global H2 depletion argument... seldom mention or
respected by
 anyone).

While H2 depletion is an on going thing at an extremely slow rate ( at the
very highest edges of the atmosphere ), I doubt that it is anything that
needs to be worried about for several hundreds of thousands of years. The
earths gravity will insure that it will be a slow process. If need be. we
can use that time to learn how to mine the gas giants directly for H2, and
the ort cloud for ice. Perhaps by then, we will have fusion or anti-matter.

Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Huge seabed methane find off Canada's west coast

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 00:18
Subject: [biofuel] Huge seabed methane find off Canada's west coast



 Not that Hubbert's Peak makes much sense to me anyway, even without
 methane hydrate, since there are immense reserves of coal and
 long-established technology for converting it into fuel. Nor does
 that make much sense because climate change will inevitably change
 the whole ball-game.


You have that right, I was once told that the 'Green River Formation' (of
western Colorado and surrounding area ) oil shale deposits hold at least as
much oil as the Middle East. Granted, the oil is locked up in shale, but,
it's been said  that when gas gets to be $3.00 - $5.00 dollars a gal. it
will be profitable enough to build the plants to extract it.  For that
matter maybe we will mine the oil shale like coal to be ground up and tossed
on the fire and then have the 'used up grounds' be removed and tossed away
like so much sand?  I have to wonder, if the Hubbert's Peak took in to
account these deposits that are so expensive to develop?

Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass underrated...

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 00:13
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass
underrated...



 - Original Message -
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 20:07
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass
 underrated...


  Another hydrogen problem I haven't heard discussed is that it
  contracts chemically 1/3 on burning according to
  
  H2 + 1/2 O2 [1.5 moles or voumes] === H2O [1 mole]
  
  by contrast, methane gets full value, since CH4 + 2 O2 [3 moles]
  === CO2 + 2 H2O [3moles]
 
  I did not understand this, nor why it is supposed to be a big problem.

 The typical car works with the expansion of gas, not the contraction which
 happens with H2. The H2 and the needed amount of O2 needed to burn the H2,
 take up more space than the H2O vapor.  Try to develop a engine that runs
by
 producing a vacuum.


Opps, I'm tired.   Make that because of the lesser volume the expansion from
the heat will be less. Less efficiency.

Greg H.




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Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass underrated...

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 01:11
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass
underrated...



 However, under circumstances where we propose a worlwide shift in human
 behaviour and industry, costing trillions of dollars, that will involve
 permanently freeing up uncountable numbers of Hydrogen Atoms from their
regular
 bonds every day on into the foreseeable future,

Perhaps, but H2 will react with a lot of things if given a chance. And given
the depth of the atmosphere, and all the chemicals in it, that is a lot of
chances to react into something less light.

 a circumstance that would not
 ever apparently have occurred in nature up until now, then I doubt your
 equations apply.

It does occur naturally, if water is hit with strong UV ( like it is in the
atmosphere ), the H2O bonds will break. You can do the experiment your self
with a aquarium UV sterilizer, turn it on and very slowly pump water thru
it, and you will smell ozone, this is because the H2O is breaking up and the
O is forming O3. The H2 is set free or it might bond with something else in
the experiment, but in the atmosphere there is less chance to bond with
anything. Another way H2 is formed is when lighting strikes, the water that
the electricity went thru would undergo natural electrosis.

 When one proposes a global permanent shift in industrial
 behaviour, performing an environmental impact assessment may involve
taking into
 account that some chemical circumstances may change, on a global scale.

 To my knowledge (very hard to expand because this is not an oft-discussed
 topic), H2 does not occurr naturally, by itself, on Earth.

In the lower reaches of the atmosphere it is hard to find in it's natural
form but it is around. in the upper reaches of the atmosphere, there is a
natural layer of it the lower portions of which mix with a layer of Helium.
These two gasses ( along with  others in limited quantity ) is part of what
gives the auroras the colors they have.

 Hydrogen seems to be
 almost always found bonded to other elements, and it is human industry
over the
 last few hundred years that has caused it to be un-bonded on occassion for
 lengthier periods of time than might occurr during a normal chemical
reaction.
 [I'm not sure, but I question, during a normal chemical reaction, how much
H2 if
 any might be liable to end up not bonded to other elements.]

See above. Again H2 would rather bond than not.


 When un-bonded in this non-natural way, that of it which escapes
confinement
 (and some of it always does) tends to rise up and, (over what time period
I'm
 not sure), escape the Earth's pull.

A very long time. Too long for the likes of even our great, great, great,
grandchildren to worry about.

This escape happens also with Helium, and
 I'm told this is why it is found only in pockets beneath the Earth's
surface.

Even a longer time, if at all. Hydrogen floats on the Helium, which floats
on the rest of the atmosphere. Perhaps any time something goes in or out of
atmosphere it might create a 'splash' but if what I hear about micro
meteorites made of ice is right,
then we may not have anything to worry about as far as even the splash
effect is concerned at all.


 Obviously, a massive increase in the amount of pure H2 confined in
pipelines and
 other storage, such as one would find in a global H2 economy would also
 massively increase the amount of H2 escaping Earth's pull in this way.
Whether
 the amounts would be sufficient to cause environmental impact concern is
 something that interests me.  So far as I can see, the calculation you
present
 briefly applies more to a pre-H2-economy situation, and not to
H2-global-economy
 conditions.


I believe that the idea of a global H2 economy is a pipedream, in and of its
self, dreamed up by people that have no idea of how H2 behaves. Personally
I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.  These same people would better the
world by figuring out how to make better use of the present H2 carriers that
we have, that would not involve the use of H2 directly (example:  a low cost
Methanol or Ethanol SOFC with a efficiency of 45%+ before using the waste
heat) .

Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass underrated...

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: Curtis Sakima [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 13:50
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass
underrated...


 (whispering)

 Shhh the reason you smell ozone is because
 the Oxygen in the air is being molecularly changed
 into ozone.

 O2 - O3


Can you explain how the Oxygen in the air is supposted to be molecularly
changed
 into ozone when the only the water is being exposed to the UV?

Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Ozone Was: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass underrated...

[Greg and April]

The devices (UV steralizers) I am talking about are used in the aquarium
hobbie, to prevent outbreaks of undesirable algae, and other micro
organisms.  The lamps have a quartz sleave them and the water and are sealed
from the outside air to prevent leaks.

So being sealed from the outside air, I can only think of one place the O3
is comming from, and this happend when the rate of water being pumped thru
them is extreamly slow.

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: Curtis Sakima [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 19:29
Subject: [biofuel] Ozone Was: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass
underrated...


 I'm sorry, I was merely questioning if the detection
 of ozone was a laboratory-controlled-experiment ... or
 just an observation of smelling ozone while exposing
 water to UV (for some other reason).  If laboratory
 researchers were at the helm of the experiment (doing
 a search-for-ozone controlled experiment) ... I
 apologize for jumping the gun.

 I was just thinking that the UV source was probably
 not completely underwater.  That there was air space
 between the source ... and the surface of the water.

 OR, there is another possible explanation.  UV
 radiation is usually generated by arc-discharge type
 of light-bulbs.  These bulbs usually use a rather
 high-voltage. It could've been that the ozone one
 smelled might be coming from the Carona discharge from
 the high-voltage.

 Curtis





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Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass underrated...

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 21:34
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Hydrogen Economy greatly overrated, biomass
underrated...



 Assuredly.  If we are proposed to have an honest-to-goodness *global* H2
 economy, I'd like to satisfy myself that the reactions that will occurr
will be
 sufficient to prevent a potentially damaging amount of H2 depletion.  Thus
far,
 I'm not even close to seeing any really in-depth studies of the matter
which
 might satisfy my curiousity.

I don't know if a study has been done, the upper middle layers of the
atmosphere would be the hardest to study. The outer layers could be studied
by satellite, the lower by aircraft, but for the middle, we just don't have
anything (to my knowledge although a U-2 might get close )  that can sent
enough time at the necessary altitude, to do anything meaningful.

 In the lower reaches of the atmosphere it is hard to find in it's natural
 form but it is around.

 I'd be interested to know more about this.  Around in what sense?  Around,
and
 recently freed from its bonds on its way out of the atmosphere?  Or
around, and
 hanging out?


To say it is going out of atmosphere is probably a little much we don't know
enough to say for sure, on the other hand I would say it is on it's way to
the upper reaches of the atmosphere.


 in the upper reaches of the atmosphere, there is a
 natural layer of it the lower portions of which mix with a layer of
Helium.
 These two gasses ( along with  others in limited quantity ) is part of
what
 gives the auroras the colors they have.

 Well, taking your word for this apparently fixed natural layer, my next
question
 would be how much global-H2-Economy-newly-freed H2 would become part of
this
 layer, and how much would not stick with it.

I'm not sure what you mean by how much would not stick with it.

 Would expansion of the layer have
 any effects, perceived ill or otherwise on present global conditions?

The atmosphere expands and contracts on a irregular basis.

 If H2
 would not all stick with this layer, but if some of it would escape,

While H2 does not have much mass, it has enough to make escape very
difficult, adding to the layer would not make this anymore likely, if you
have a glass of oil and water and you add more of the same oil, the oil
layer will just get thicker, it will not just up and leave the glass. H2 is
much like that oil, unless somthing major disturbs the oil like a droping a
rock into the glass ( like a major meteor into the atmpsphere ) not much is
going to happen. Yes a few atoms of H2 will develope enough energy to over
come gravity ( like steam leaving a pot of boiling water ) but this is some
thing that has been happening for as long as the earth has had an atmosphere
.

 then would
 this depletion be sufficient to warrant my concerns (i.e., for one thing,
since
 depletion of that amount would amount to a gradual decrease in the
 Earth-System-Mass).

By the time this happens (to any major extent), we should be starting to
recover H2 from other places in the solar system. If we are on a H2 economy
at all.


 While you've presented me with a better understanding of H2, I'm not sure
you've
 shown that you've addressed yourself to the question of getting a handle
on
 *new* calculations for H2 depletion, given the huge change in
freely-floating H2
 that would occurr in a global H2 economy.

The old and the new caculations are basicly the same, the main differance is
the rate that H2 becomes avalable.


 I wonder: a=f/m  Where m is very small, it wouldn't take very much to make
a
 very large.  Increase the number of H2 molecules, increase the number of
 collisions, then I wonder how many would result in escape velocity being
 reached, via this scenario.

Don't forget volume, if you increase the volume, you decrease the number of
collisions for a given tempature. So if the H2 layer expands, then nothing
happens except an increase in the atmosphere thickness (which might not be a
totaly bad thing with the ozone whole thing). A balloon at room temp. has a
few more molecule collisions than the in the room it is in, but if we were
able to increase the volume of the balloon without increaseing the number of
molacules then the number of molaculer collisions would decrease ( as well
as the temp. ) to below the number in the room.

 
 I believe that the idea of a global H2 economy is a pipedream, in and of
its
 self,

 I'm skeptical about the wisdom and-or viability of the global h2 economy,
but I
 guess for different reasons.


Your best bet, would be to ask a atmophysicist, you might be able to find
one at your local university. Failing that someone at the university should
be able point you to someone else who could answer your questions better
than I.

Greg H.


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Re: [biofuel] cold weather

[Greg and April]

I've never heard of such a thing, were did you get this info.?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: John Venema [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 15:48
Subject: Re: [biofuel] cold weather


  An other thing I recently discovered was a kind of
 flamethrower which will warm the airintake to the cylinder using diesel.



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Re: [biofuel] The BBC has been fooled by a CIA set up...NOT

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: Michael S Briggs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 09:41
Subject: Re: [biofuel] The BBC has been fooled by a CIA set up...NOT



 On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Hakan Falk wrote:


  also
  be a surprise to you that Soviet lost 100 on every allied soldier killed
and

 Yup, that was unfortunate. Of course, that number (I think the Soviet
 Union lost 25 million people roughly) also includes a very large number of
 non-military personnel.

Don't forget the Soviet Union would send in a battalion of men with maybe 2
dozen pistols, a dozen rifles, and 1 or 2 tanks ( if the battalion was
lucky ) because they had a bad weapon shortage ( this almost lost them the
war ), the rest of the men were expected to pick up the weapons of there
fallen comrades and captured enemy weapons. Tactics like this, lead to mass
combat fatalities.

If I remember right, the Soviet Union and Germany did not sign the Geneva
Convention regarding each others solders, so prisoners were treated worse
than other wise and many died for this reason alone.

Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Re: The Debate Over Diesel

[Greg and April]

I to would be interested in the info.

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: Michael S Briggs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 16:04
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: The Debate Over Diesel



 If you want more info on his setup, let me know and I can put you in touch
 with him. They have a webpage for the group, but not much information on
 it yet.





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[biofuel] Fw: [GardeningOrganically] how to tell if fruit is GMO

[Greg and April]

I thought that this might be of interest with all the talk of GM corn of
late.

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: Carol Minnick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 19:35
Subject: [GardeningOrganically] how to tell if fruit is GMO


 An article in the June 26 issue of the Philadelphia Inquirer Food
 section explains what the codes on those individual pieces of produce
 really mean. This is actually quite significant because the GMO
 (Genetically
 Modified) industry, despite consumer pressure (and the law in Europe)
 has
 refused to label GMO/non-GMO food in the US. So, while there may not be

 any grocery store label, if you can read the individual stickers, you
 can
 find out exactly what kind of produce you are buying!
 

 Sticky But Useful Fruit Labels

 As much as we may dislike them, the stickers or labels attached to fruit
 speed up the scanning process at checkout. Cashiers no longer need to
 distinguish a Fuji apple from a Gala apple, a prickly pear from a horned
 melon, or a grapefruit They simply key in the PLU code -- the price
 lookup number printed on the sticker -- and the market's computerized
 cash register identifies the fruit by its PLU. The numbers also enable
 retailers to track how well individual varieties are selling. For
 conventionally grown fruit, the PLU code on the sticker consists of four
 numbers.

 Organically grown fruit has a five-numeral PLU prefaced by the number 9.

 Genetically engineered fruit has a five-numeral PLU prefaced by the
 number 8.

 So, a conventionally grown banana would be 4011,
 an organic banana would be 94011,
 and a genetically engineered banana would be 84011.

 The numeric system was developed by the Produce Electronic
 Identification Board, an affiliate of the Produce Marketing Association,
 a Newark, Del.-based trade group for the produce industry. As of October
 2001, the board had assigned more than 1,200 PLUs for individual produce
 items.

 You can read the full article at:
 http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/living/food/3547139.htm

 Carol M
 ~~~
 To receive a FREE health document,
 Standard vs. Organic Whole-Food Supplements,
 send a blank email message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ~~~




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Re: [biofuel] OT: US Organic certification program

[Greg and April]

Sorry to say it, but, it will happen, because the big farming companies will
want it to happen because it is good business for them.

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: Kim  Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 06:35
Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: US Organic certification program


 I personally looked at the program, years ago and decided that certified
 wasn't going to happen.  The regulation were ridiculous then, now they
 are worse.  I would encourage everyone who possibly can to join a farmer
 coop, a produce coop or to buy from places that list their meat on
 eatwild.com or other healthy sites.  From a farmer's point of view, they
 have just made it so we can't use the word to describe our method of
 farming.  I lost all faith in the 'organic' programs when they certified
 a feed lot as organic!

 Bright Blessings,
 Kim




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Re: [biofuel] White Spirits Mix with WVO/SVO

[Greg and April]

One that my dad was told ( by his mechanic ) to thin down dino diesel in
winter by putting 1/2 gal. of gasoline into the tank before filling normally
with diesel, this might work with Bio Diesel.  Another I've heard of , but,
I don't know how effective is to use some toluene.

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: coachgeo3 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 21:06
Subject: [biofuel] White Spirits Mix with WVO/SVO


 Apparently there was a report on the BBC on 10/20 about the use of
 White Spirits (Mineral Spirits?... paint thinner?) as a blending
 agent for thinning down the WVO/SVO for use as is in Diesel engines
 (Indirect inject)  Reccomendation was as little as 3%.  Anyone have
 anymore info on this other other potential thinning agents that is
 cost effective.  Would this type agent increase or imporves the
 cetane potential?

 Thanx.



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Re: [biofuel] Pro-privacy, pro-environment senator dies in crash

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 02:22
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Pro-privacy, pro-environment senator dies in crash



 Look at the ever-growing popularity of PDFs, true web-garbage - it's
 irrevocably page-oriented, uselessly so, but so many people still
 think in paper, make print-outs, no real idea what digitized info is,
 let alone how to use it, or how to organize it and store it.


I love digitized info. I have more of it stored on my computer than I will
probably ever use, and I still download more each day.  For those of you who
like science fiction check out  http://www.WebScription.net , here, many (
if not all ) books put out by Baen Books, is in eletronic form (in several
different formants), and many are free. The ones that are not, you pay for
less than you would at the store, something on the order of $15.00 for 4-6
books.

Greg H.






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[biofuel] Can Canadian list members give me a hand?

[Greg and April]

I'm looking for a  Toyota Land Cruiser BJ60 ( Diesel ) 4 Door., I found one
here in the States, but, the frame was so far gone, only 2 welds was keeping
it from breaking in half.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Fire Mitigation

[Greg and April]

I forgot to comment that if they don't get going, and the 40 million acres
most at risk burns, before they get started, there won't be much environment
left to study.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 15:52
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fire Mitigation


 From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Tue May 20, 2003 0:24am
 Subject:
 
 Fire Mitigation
 AP
 
 U.S. House Republicans and the Bush administration are moving this
 week toward speeding up projects to reduce the fire threat on
 millions of federal acres.
 
 Environmentalists and the administration agree cutting trees from
 overgrown areas or burning choked forests under controlled
 conditions would reduce the threat. But the two sides are split on
 whether environmental impact studies should be suspended before the
 cutting and burning happen on the 40 million acres most at risk for
 wildfires.
 
 An estimated 73 million acres of national forests and 107 million
 acres of other federal lands are at heightened risk for major fires
 because aggressive firefighting has left them thick with small,
 flammable trees and growth.

 On the other hand...

 http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=24905list=BIOFUEL

 http://www.enn.com/news/2003-05-15/s_4450.asp
 Investigation finds most forest treatment projects not seriously
 delayed by appeals
 15 May 2003
 By Robert Gehrke, Associated Press

 http://ens-news.com/ens/may2003/2003-05-14-09.asp
 GAO Report Adds Fuel to the Wildfire Debate

 Also:

 http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2003/05
 /15/MN272143.DTL
 Appeals don't stall most forest thinning projects
 95% of wildfire protection projects on target, GAO says
 Zachary Coile, Chronicle Washington Bureau
 Thursday, May 15, 2003

 Also:
 http://www.wilderness.org/NewsRoom/Release/20030514.cfm
 New GAO Report Shows Public Participation, Appeals Do Not Interfere
 With Fuel Reduction

 Uh.. no need to take any notice of that last one, they're
 environmental whackoes after all, LOL!




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[biofuel] solar colector ( was Re: price of methanol )

[Greg and April]

Do you have any pics. or drawings of it?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Brent S [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 08:54
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: price of methanol


 Wish I had somewhere to take a course. I have always been far ahead of
 everyone in my thinking and as such, end up being laughed at an ridiculed
 about new things. It also means doing things the hard way most of the
time.

 Last year I built a solar colector out of ABS pipe. I have gotten 140 deg.
 out of it with no trouble and know I can get it a few deg. warmer. I would
 use that as a preheat, reducing the energy required to take it to the
 boiling point of methanol. You metioned heating both the diesel and
 glycerine. I assume you do this after settling. Do you stir it as well
 during the distilling?

 Thanx
 Brent






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[biofuel] Fw: [wastewatts] Potash, water and electricity = heat?

[Greg and April]

Saw this on another list, and looks interesting if it is for real.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 14:52
Subject: [wastewatts] Potash, water and electricity = heat?


 Link below is two lines long...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml%3B$sessionid$UTFLVFU5KGT1XQFIQMGSFFOAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2003/05/18/ncell18.xmlsSheet=/news/2003/05/18/ixhome
 .html





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Re: [biofuel] Fire Mitigation

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 11:27
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fire Mitigation



 Well, not only that, but if it's not done that way, if local
 communities aren't involved in the process (the WHOLE process), it
 usually doesn't get very far - it might syphon off money and
 resources into people's pockets for a while (the wrong people), but
 it's not sustainable. It has to be maintained, not just mined. Nice
 fuzzy buzzword, sustainable,but all it means is that it lasts.
 Forests have long lives, so do communities, such things should last,
 and indeed they can - there's been thousands of years of fruitful
 symbiosis between forests and communities, as between soils and
 communities. It's all quite easy really, no big mystery - but the
 trouble is it doesn't leave enough room for parasitic corporate
 rip-off merchants who live far away and don't give a damn.

 And, yes, someone should whisper in the ear of some of the enviros
 that a *managed* forest contains more biomass and more biodiversity
 than an unmanaged (pristine, wild) one - unless maybe it really
 is a pristine, wild one, which usually it's not. Many of them know
 that, but maybe not all.

 In the end, if the forest doesn't get thinned by someone, everything
 will go to waste in a larger fire that will set back local ecology,
 further than it need not go. In a way, I see it currently as a
 Catch-22 situation, the forest is in trouble if it is not thinned
 and it burns out of control and it's in trouble if Big Timber gets
 it hands on it.

 The wrong people are making the decisions, the wrong people have
 taken an interest, and it's going to be very difficult to get it to
 make any sense until it's wrested away from them. Same issue as all
 the others really - energy diversification and localization, food
 miles etc, campaign contributions... Close your eyes and chuck a dart!

 With forests, and perhaps the rest too, this problem is not confined
 to the US, far from it, you find shades of it the world round.

 Doesn't it strike you as completely nuts that energy is such a big
 crunch, we're fighting wars over it, the US guzzles this huge amount
 beyond its fair share, distorting the entire world, even the climate
 - and yet there's all this pure energy lying around there going to
 waste, causing trouble and threatening people's home and lives, in
 the forests?


Despite growing up in an urban enviroment, I have believed this since high
school.

 Leaders? Hmph... need statesmen, got politicos instead, poor substitute.

 Apologies once again Greg.


No problem.

Greg H.



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Re: RE: [biofuel] Gardner Watts breakthrough discovery

[Greg and April]

Thanks, for the info, when I did grind work, all that we used the TIG for
was Al, and I knew it was Tungsten, didn't know that there were other types.
What are the others, and what are they best used for?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Mark Kaufman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 00:53
Subject: RE: RE: [biofuel] Gardner Watts breakthrough discovery


 If you try a TIG welding electrode, you'll find that there are 5
 different types of electrodes in three main sizes 1/16 inch, 3/32 inch
 and 1/8 inch you will want the 100% pure tungsten which is universally
 color coded with a green stripe and recommended for welding aluminum.

 Mak

 -Original Message-
 From: Greg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:53 AM
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: RE: [biofuel] Gardner Watts breakthrough discovery

 I would bet a TIG welding electrode would work, it would be a lot
 stronger.

 Greg H.

 ---Original Message---
 From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 05/21/03 08:48 AM
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: RE: [biofuel] Gardner Watts breakthrough discovery

 
  Doesn't look like it would be terribly hard to try out. Procuring the
 electrodes prob the only difficult bit. Wonder if the filament from a
 burned
 out 500W lightbulb would do for the tungsten one.

 Kirk

 -Original Message-
 From: robert luis rabello [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 9:12 PM
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Gardner Watts breakthrough discovery




 kirk wrote:

  In results independently verified at Bristol University, a team from
 Gardner
  Watts - an environmental technology company based in Dedham, Essex -
 show
 a
  thermal energy cell which appears to produce hundreds of times more
 energy
  than that put into it. If the findings are correct and can be
 reproduced
 on
  a commercial scale, the thermal energy cell could become a feature of
 every
  home, heating water for a fraction of the cost and cutting fuel bills
 by
 at
  least 90 per cent.
 
  Not ordinary electrolysis.
 
  Kirk
 

 I hope you're right, Kirk, but I'm not holding my breath.  I've been
 a
 hydrogen enthusiast for many years, and I've seen so many scams come and
 go
 in my
 lifetime that I'm VERY skeptical. . .  (Especially when the cell LOOKS
 like
 an
 electrolysis cell and is made up of the same components as an
 electrolysis
 cell.
 A crook named Stanley Meyer was touting such a thing a few years ago,
 using
 the
 same nuclear language.)  Let the research team publish in a reputable
 journal,
 and let's see if anyone else can independently verify the results.

 robert luis rabello
 The Edge of Justice
 Adventure for Your Mind
 a target=_blank
 href=http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782;http://www.1stbooks.com/boo
 kview/9782/a




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Re: [biofuel] Removing water from oil - was: steam versus oil heating for commercial plants

[Greg and April]

When I was making soap from scratch, I used a method similar to this.  I
would cook down the fat, then strain it through a sieve, to get rid of the
larger stuff, then in a large pot, I would, start some water boiling and add
the warm fat to it, being careful not to cause any spatters.  I would not
let the layer of liquid fat get over 1/2 in. deep, I let the water / fat
mixture boil gently for about 20 - 30 min. let it cool and set the entire
pot into the refrigerator, over night for the fat to solidify.  The next
day, after the fat had solidified, I would lift the solid piece off the
water and pat it with a paper towel to get the rest of the water off.  The
fat would be almost creamy white with few, if any particles, left in it.
The water on the other hand usually wound up a kinda nasty brown, with
floating things in it.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 10:36
Subject: [biofuel] Removing water from oil - was: steam versus oil heating
for commercial plants


 Hello Andreas, Bill

 Just to add that it can be difficult to remove the water content from
 animal fats in used oil. Andreas, you raise a good point with
 water-soluble contaminants (which can also throw out titration
 results). In some severe cases I've found it useful to wash the oil
 first - a hot bubblewash: heat the oil to about 70 deg C, add 50% of
 water at near boiling point, bubblewash for half an hour or longer
 while maintaining heat at 70 deg C, settle and cool, drain off water,
 then dry oil as usual. This has the advantage of removing the
 water-solubles, whereas, as you say, simply heating the oil to remove
 the water will leave them behind, and possibly some water with them.
 But it's quite energy-intensive. I like Girl Mark's advice here -
 find better oil!

 Bill,
 
 you are right (in principle) - allthough this process is dangerous
because:
 
 - Water in oil can suddenly start boiling (like a mini-explosion) and
spit
 oil around. To avoid this keep stirring the oil.
 - Water on the bottom (where it usually is because of the higher density)
 underlies a higher pressure then at the top - thus the boiling point
rises
 according to the height of oil above. So the boiling point may not be 10
 degrees Celsius but above.
 - If mixtures of water and other substances occur (in our case e.g. salt
or
 sugar solved from the french fries etc.) the boiling point is
significantly
 above 100 degrees.
 
 This and the fact that you need (some, not much) more energy to heat up
to
 the boiling point you usually prefer to just heat the oil to 60 - 70
 degrees and then wait for the water to separate (which it usually does in
 about the same amount as if you would boil it). If it does not, you will
 have the same problems removing it by vaporiszing because in this case
the
 oil will be additionaly impurified with all the stuff that has been
solved
 in the water and that's now left behind because the vapour is pure
water...

 One point on energy use in comparing the two main dewatering methods
 is that heating to 60-70 deg C and settling loses the heat, whereas
 with boiling it off, while using lots of energy, you can at least
 catch it on the way down and start processing the oil once it's
 cooled to 55 deg C, saving some of the extra energy. But more heat
 carries the danger of creating more FFAs, which adds to boiling being
 the less preferred method.

 Hope this helps...

 Me too! :-)

 Best

 Keith


 Andreas Ohnsorge
 
 
 
 
   William Clark
 
   eufclarkTo:
 biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 
   @bellsouth.net  cc:
 
Subject: Re:
 [biofuel] steam versus oil heating for commercial plants
 
   23.05.2003 04:21
 
   Please respond
 
   to biofuel
 
 
 
 Hello Andreas,
 
 Perhaps you could help me with a chemistry question. When water boils,
the
 temperature of a solution will not exceed 100 deg. C until all water is
 boiled off, correct? If oil containing water is heated, does this still
 apply? More to the point, can the absence of water be determined by a
rise
 in oil temp beyond 100 deg. C? I truly have no clue if any of this is
 right.
 Your help or others would be most appreciated.
 
 Bill Clark

 snip



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Forest Management (was Re: [biofuel] Fire Mitigation)

[Greg and April]

Mark,

I don't think that we are talking about  maintained  in the way you are
thinking.

First and foremost, the forest should be 'reverted' ( for lack a better term
at this time ) back to a state, that would allow a more relaxed approach to
the type of management that you talk about.   I  think that it is not a hard
core major disagreement as to the who and how things should not be done, but
more in line with the details.

I wandered around the web site that you gave, perhaps I just missed the
particular page that talked about it,because , all I found was some
information about classes that they gave, about the type of management they
use. Although once this e-mail is off, I will look up the methods that you
said were good.

Several months ago, in another similar discussion that I had with Keith, I
listed what I thought on the way that it should be done, and I'll try to do
so again ( and expanded upon ) for you, so that you will have a better feel
for my thoughts on the subject.

Personally I would go in and start removing about of 10% of all size
trees in the areas prone to extreme fire, that includes starting by removing
all
large and small trees that were dead, diseased, and dying, the trunks and
any branches over 2 inches could be salvaged for sale, the rest chipped and
shredded, left as mulch.   The exception to this being with the diseased
trees, which
should be burnt to a) reduce the spread of disease, b) provide an energy
source, c) or perhaps for the pulping for paper ( I would think that the
process of
making paper would kill of the disease organisms, but I could be wrong )

The reason I would start with 10% of all sizes, is to open up the spacing,
between trees, so that water and nutrients is more available, this would
make the remaining trees more resistant to disease and fire.

Afterwards if a dangerous fuel load still existed, (for mature forest
management) I would increase the spacing of the trees with the old/mature
trees
( over 12 inches or for what ever is considered  Old / Mature  in years
for species
that don't get that big at that age ) being favored for saving but, with a
total of
no more than about 4/10ths of the total, the middle-age group ( from 4 to 12
inches or with the same provisions listed above in years ), should not
exceed 3/10ths
of the total, with the same for young trees ( up to 4 inches with the same
provisions ) with
trees under 2 inches making up no more than 2/3rds of the young group, and a
burn every
10-15+ years ( depending on how fast the fuel load builds up ).

For managing a middle-age forest the ratios would change to 2/10ths mature,
1/2
middle-aged, and  3/10ths young trees, and a burn every 5-10 years.

In managing a young forest,  ratios of  2/10ths mature, 3/10ths middle-aged,
and 1/2
young, with a burn every 3-5 years.

Now the ratios I have talked about ensure that at least 1/2 of the area has
a combination of Old/Mature and Middle aged trees, this allows good
regeneration of the area as well as resistance to fire and disease.

Now where I say Old/Mature Forest, Middle Aged, or Young Forest this is for
managing for general age of tree, but, it could very well be applied to
managing different parts of the same multi-hundred acre forest ( it could
very well be done on smaller acreages, but, below 50 acres or so it would
start to get difficult to do it, except choosing a general age and managing
it that way ), one 200 acre area be in the old/mature category, another in
the middle aged category, and say 300 acres in the young category, and the
category for a given area can change depending on how things are going and
what the need is, indeed it might be a good thing to change a Old/Mature
category area to a Young category area after about 30 - 40 years ( or more
depending on the what the specie of trees, needed ).  This would allow
rejuvenation of the area and supply quite a bit of wood ( for various use )
with out total destruction, granted not all, but, many trees would  live out
there live out there lives without being touched by a saw or ax until they
were dead/dying.

If a small area seams to be heavily infested, with disease, perhaps a very
controlled clear cutting of the trees in the area might help control the
disease.   Do the clear cutting over 3-5 years, so that understory / meadow
plants can develop so that erosion is minimized.  Indeed in some heavily
forested areas, is might be an idea to develop meadows, in this way, so that
biodiversity can be increased, and you would have new trees starting to grow
into the area.

You mentioned the problems with streams and cutting near them, in this area.
IMHO, very selective cutting of trees, to enhance the growth of grasses and
other under plants, and this in turn should help keep unnecessary sediment
out of the streams.  The closer you get to a stream, the more selective and
limited in cutting you should be, and the more diverse the plants should be,
this in turn should keep the plants at a density 

Re: [biofuel] Fire Mitigation

[Greg and April]

I thought that I did make a comment on the subject, but, perhaps I was
agreeing with what was said about it.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 16:00
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Fire Mitigation



 And your statement about the fires cooking the topsoils is a natural
 occurance that acts to crate alkaline soils to help moderate the natural

 I made no such statement, neither did Greg, Kirk did, and I don't
 think either Greg or I commented.



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Re: [biofuel] Small Engine Fuel

[Greg and April]

If I remember, right, these robot mowers are smaller than many gas engine
powered mowers. I saw a few held up one at a time, and the largest was about
the size of the torso of the man that was holding it.

Greg H

- Original Message - 
From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 20:59
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Small Engine Fuel




 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I have seen that Husquavarna from Sweeden have developed a solar power
robot mower that operates from electric, is toatally silent and operated
within defined cutting zone.

 
  Other than that rabbits will do an excellent job of nibbling grass and
genertate excellent  manure, and feeding,
 
  best regards,
 
  dD

 We have a rabbit, but he's an indoor pet.  The straw and waste from
his pen go into the compost heap, so he's doing his part . . .

 I went to Sears today with my in-laws.  They have several different
varieties of powered mowers, but only two push mowers.  Most suburban lawns
are really too small for a
 powered mower.



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Re: [biofuel] Fire Mitigation

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: Mark Kaufman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 21:17
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Fire Mitigation


 Greg, Keith, and Kirk
 I am extremely sorry for my tirade!!  And both of you are correct I
 haven't read the archives and obviously misinterpreted what was being
 said.  
 
 It appears that I made a fool of myself for not checking the archives
 and blurting out when I hadn't even checked the history of this thread.
 I am sorry for going off on you guys.  Again, I sincerely apologize! 
 

Don't wory, it happens.

 It appears that we all have similar, if not exactly the same ideas for
 management of the forest and all of it's associated organisms.  The
 Daurwald concept in fact is an age-old German concept of forest
 management, being practiced by a few in North America.  North American
 forest management often disgusts me and Greg's ides are similar in
 nature to the Daurwald concept.  Jim Burkheimer's web-site seems to have
 radically changed and in a quick search I couldn't find the material on
 the Daurwald concept.  I'll find it again and get the information to
 you.
 

Yes, please. It would be interesting to see what the concept is.

Greg H.

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Re: [biofuel] Re: changing my mind about ethanol

[Greg and April]

Perhaps, but I can buy, a used pick-up, put insurance, on it, register it
and fuel it for less on a per year bases ( driving it only when I have to )
than to buy a brand new 50+ mpg vehicle and then rent a truck when I need
to.  It would take maybe 6 or 7 years for things to equal up cost wise, and
I can do the maintenance on the truck my self.  Who knows what kind of life
span a 50+ mpg hybrid vehicle has.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 16:21
Subject: [biofuel] Re: changing my mind about ethanol


 On Fri, 30 May 2003 13:40:59 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

 Let's change this efficiencies idea around and discuss the value of this
as to the required work needing to be done and what kind of job we did at
accomplishing it as people.
 
 First, most of us fire up our 2,500 to 6,000 pound 50 to 400 horsepower
vehicle to give our 200 pound average body a ride to a destination to
accomplish some purpose which is usually a useful one in our own mind.
 
 Did we consider that we only used 10% or less of the fuel for the purpose
we required getting accomplished, moving our 200 pound body from point A
to point B,  with the rest simply moving the vehicle from one place to
another as a by-product of our goal?
 
 Did we really need that vehicle we chose to accomplish the task?
 
 Was the task considered in conjunction with solving more than one purpose
therefore better utilizing the vehicle and it's energy cost?
 
 For most of us, the answer is NO !!
 
 Now the confusion of asking ourselves  ARE WE THE PROBLEM comes face to
face and we must make a decision; oh my, now what??
 
 Think about how we changed the incandescent light bulb and it still fits
our needs doesn't it? It also costs us about 75% less in energy cost to use
it as well.
 
 Now, can we do this with our ICE device?
 
 Not until we begin to think differently !!
 
 But, I need my TRUCK, (usually a pickup), to move things around once in
a while so that's what I bought.
 
 Ever consider the HONDA hybrid and 50+ mpg and rent a pickup for those
occasional needs kinda like you would with a U-HAUL truck?
 
 This kind of thought will do more for energy than one might think.
 
 Bob

 I agree.  Rental of the appropriate vehicle for the appropriate task
 can and should be a solution for some people.  For myself, this would
 be more viable more often if the costs of insurance and other matters
 were not so prohibitive.  Particularly insurance.





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Re: [biofuel] Sweet Wankel diesels...

[Greg and April]

Very sweet!

I like the fuel selection:

Heavy Fuel/ Diesel / F-34 or F-40
Jet-A / F-54 / F-75 / JP-4 / JP-5 / JP-8

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 23:41
Subject: [biofuel] Sweet Wankel diesels...


 Check the p/w ratio on these puppies! (go to development)

 http://www.wankel-rotary.com/

 Yee-haa




 Regards,

 Edward Beggs BES MSc
   Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
 http://www.biofuels.ca




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Re: [biofuel] Propane / NG water heaters (was Re: solar colector)

[Greg and April]

I did a google search,  Natural Gas to Propane , and came up with over 400
hits,  I just check a few  on the first couple of pages, and some of the
info. was appliance specific,  but they had to do with changing the orifice
to a smaller size.   Closer examination of the results might give you what
you need.

Did you check with the appliance dealers or did you talk to propane dealers,
I would think that the propane dealers might have a better handle on idea
than anyone else.  It might be a matter of checking with someone that works
with both NG and propane, telling them what you want to do, and asking about
changing the gas orifice.

You might even check into having one made rather than buying one, a matter
of unscrewing ( or otherwise detaching it ) and having a new one made with
all dimetions the same except a smaller hole for the gas.

One of the things I did see, during the search, was a gas regulator, for
converting a NG greenhouse CO2 generator to propane, you detach the line on
the generator, from the NG supply, and attached the regulator between the
propane tank and the generator supply line.  I think that it was $50.00

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: girl_mark_fire [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 12:42
Subject: [biofuel] Propane / NG water heaters (was Re: solar colector)


 Hi Greg,
 I tried to find out more info about doing this. It's not super easy. The
 manufacturers of the water heaters all said that it'd be OK to convert
from
 propane to NG, but not the other way around. Yet stoves (cookstoves) are
fine
 to convert in either direction.  I tried to ask about buying a propane
burner and
 regulator and installing it in my NG heater, but it was either not
possible, or
 was just too strange a request for the customer service person I talked
to, to
 'process'.

 I wonder if it would have something to do with the size of the flue in the
 heater?

 I also have heard that the home beer brewer world has published several
 plans on propane and natural gas conversion for stoves, and perhaps has
put
 out other info about homemade/do-it-yourself burner options, since they
 frequently heat large amounts of liquids in pots too big for some
cookstoves.  I
 was told that some of these plans are on the internet in beer homebrewer
 sites and discussed on beer homebrewer lists.

 Take care,
 mark
 --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Greg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  G Mark,
 
  Have you thought of converting one of thoes free NG heaters to Propane?
  The reasion I ask, is that I worked security at a propane / NG shaving
  facility for several years, and picked up a few things from the pros
there, that
  made their living working with both.
 
  Propane is hotter than NG for a given amount, so a few things that could
  be done is, 1) Install a smaller burner. 2) Mix enough air with the
propane
  to bring it down to the same BTU value as NG. 3) use a manualy
adjustable
  valve to control the amount of propane, and adjust the fuel flow
manualy, so
  you get a burning flame simular to that of NG.
 
  Greg H.
 
 



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Re: [biofuel] Re: highway speed findings

[Greg and April]

That's fine, what is a slower driver suppose to do, when he/she is trying to
get to the right, and he/she can not because everyone and their uncle are
passing on the left?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 15:19
Subject: [biofuel] Re: highway speed findings



 Second, the lack of enforcement of drivers going too slowly is related
 to the lack of consistency in passing on the left.  Slower drivers
 should keep right.  Those going outrageously slowly should be ticketed
 regardless of lane, but in any case those going somewhat slowly need
 to do so to the right.  This is stated somewhat in the rules or regs I
 think, and I think it's a logical-enough rule-of-thumb such that I put
 a copy of the slower-drivers-keep-right sign on the start-page of my
 website four years ago and haven't taken it down.



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Re: [biofuel] Re: highway speed findings

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 17:33
Subject: [biofuel] Re: highway speed findings


 You're talking about a situation that many of us have been in before,
 to one extent or another.

 It's hard for me to say if the cop was warranted in ticketing your
 wife without knowing all the details.  Was she doing the limit the
 whole time or did she speed up only when she started to feel that
 folks were impatient behind her?

The entire time.


 Usually when a cop is spotted around a group of drivers, most of that
 group will slow down to the limit and one would not be ticketed for
 doing the limit.  At other times, I reckon a cop will get on the tail
 of a driver whose driving he doesn't like, and sometimes will even
 ticket them for any old thing, if he or she has a basic problem with
 their driving.


Around here, most people are so paranoid, about cops, that if the cop was
doing 30 in a 35 zone, most of the people will slow down and stay behind
him, in both lanes.

 A friend of mine was ticketed when he pulled over, the cop told him to
 pull further down the road, he did and they ticketed him for not
 putting his seat belt back on for the second part, after he was all
 flustered. But I wasn't unhappy he was ticketed he's a lead-footed
 driver who often fails to signal.

I have almost been in to many accadents to count because of this, or because
they signal and start pulling over with out checking to see if the lane is
clear.  A disporportionate number of them with Cali. lisence plates.


 It is certainly an occassional problem that one will be trying to do
 the right thing (get right, so that faster drivers can pass on the
 left) when the flow of heavy traffic to one's right will prevent this.
 When I have been in that circumstance, I signal so as to make sure
 that those behind me understand that I understand the concept that I
 am to get to the right, I wait until there is a break in those passing
 me, and then I move right.

Same here, but, there have been times when I have had to very slowly start
pulling over, before to long someone realizes I actualy want to pull over
and slow down and let me in.  I don't like doing it, but, somtimes it's the
only way to get over, because alot of them just ether just don't care, or
they are not paying attention to things like turn signals.

Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] California desert residents use water like there's no tomorrow - but tomorrow is coming

[Greg and April]

In Colorado Springs, we had some very heavy snow storms come through the
last part of winter ( just a little above average last winter ), but,
according to the experts, in order to bring the local reservoirs back up to
what they should be, we need another 6 years of higher than average snow
falls. Despite the good snows, the timing of the rain in the high country is
causing faster melt off.  Currently, we are still about 2 inches lower than
avg, for this time of year.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 13:34
Subject: Re: [biofuel] California desert residents use water like there's no
tomorrow - but tomorrow is coming



 Apparently the snows in the Sierras were good, so Northern California is
 good-to-go.  Lake Oroville is overflowing?  Dunno about the Rockies.





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Re: [biofuel] Re: [evworld] Natural Gas Chemistry and Economics

[Greg and April]

Please keep in mind, that while it may not be a 50/50,  propane / air mix,
it is still quite common to use it in NG shaving operations in regions were
it is to cold to use butane.  Some years it is used quite extensively,
others it is not. It depends on the current market for NG at the time it is
needed.

Buying and stockpiling propane in the summer ( when the price is normally
lower than in the winter ) is a hedge, agenst unusually hard/severe winters.

Locally, they have 48 55,000 gal tanks, converted for holding propane (
80-85% max capacity ), 4 NG fired vaporizers, a NG standby generator
(converted from diesel ) to make sure that they can continue during power
outages, approximately 12 compressors run by big diesel Caterpillar engines
converted to NG, and a double blender.  Altogether at capacity, they can
vaporize, compress, and mix, enough propane/air, to feed a 30 in NG main,
1,000,000 cf / hr @ 150 psi., and if necessary, they can do it 24/7, and I
have seen them do it for over 1 1/2 weeks, and have been told that they
could keep it up for over a month if need be.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: biofuel@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 18:45
Subject: [biofuel] Re: [evworld] Natural Gas Chemistry and Economics


 Bob:

 Thanks for the history and thoughts.  I'll pass them on to others.  In
your
 second-to-last paragraph you reference the past where Propane/Air 50/50
was
 sometimes packaged as natural gas, but not so much today, and I think that
helps
 me understand how some disagreement came up.  It seems to me that in the
 present, when I see articles about Natural Gas, or Liquified Natural Gas,
I
 generally assume that the brunt of it is Methane.  It looks like Ill have
to
 hold off on assuming that all of it is methane.






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Re: [biofuel] Despite billions for alternatives, car remains king

[Greg and April]

I'm not disagreeing with anything, but, just wanted to add in my $0.02 (
U.S. of course 8-P ).   Public transportation in many places, is not
reliable enough to get around town, without wasting thousands of man hours
each month.  In many palaces, some routes end as early as 6:00-6:30 pm, (
which does no good for those working the swing or graveyard shifts), then
the main routs are shut down by 8:00 pm or so.  Why?  because not enough
people are using the facilities to justify keeping the routs open and
running at that time of the evening.

Many employers do not consider public transportation reliable enough, to
hire people who, use it as there main means of travel.  I have been in this
particular boat ( maybe I should say bus in this case ) before.  In other
cases were car pooling was involved, I was expected to haul people to work
even on my days off, and if the any of the people were to drunk to work or
got sick, I had to haul them back home again, with out any additional
compensation, to take care of fuel, wear and tear on the car, as well as my
being off the time clock.  Talk about not saving money as well as a waste of
fuel and a source of pollution, that need not happen.   I saved more money,
wasted less fuel, and caused less pollution when I didn't carpool.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 05:19
Subject: [biofuel] Despite billions for alternatives, car remains king


 http://www.msnbc.com/news/925324.asp?cp1=1

 Despite billions for alternatives, car remains king


 SNIPED 


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Re: [biofuel] WW2

[Greg and April]

Yea, they used 80%-85% ( or stronger ) H2O2, and reacted it with Potassium
Permanente the result was a steam driven submarine.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:05
Subject: [biofuel] WW2


 In WW2 the Germans had a SUB that use H2O2 and ran faster than a normal
 SUB Any ideals on how that did that?

 David Wood


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[biofuel] Fwd: Where Does the Toxic Waste Go?...or wanna buy some dirty fertilizer

[Greg and April]

I found this to be interesting, and I thought that a few others might as
well.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: frank petrie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 18:17
Subject: [GardeningOrganically] Fwd: Where Does the Toxic Waste Go?...or
wanna buy some dirty fertilizer


 what is our government thinking???

 --- Juvio Florence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  From: Juvio Florence [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:59:11 +
  Subject: [dreamtime] Fwd: Where Does the Toxic Waste
  Go?
 

 -

 Salamander Sanctuary is a Taoist permasculptural
 temple located in Diamond Elk Valley in the
 temperamental rain forest of southern Oregon.





 Carla Emery has collected evidence that toxic waste
 products are built into our
 roads, homes and food (via fertilizer). Besides the
 obvious contamination of our
 food is the contamination of our environment but
 herein I will only issue the
 fertilizer/food contamination.
 http://www.carlaemery.com/carlaemery/News.htm
 
 The following article won the Oakes Award. It is
 given to the author of a
 newspaper or magazine article that makes an
 exceptional contribution to public
 understanding of contemporary environmental issues.
 

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/disp
lay?slug=fertdate=19970703query=fear+in+the+fields

 Fear in the fields: How hazardous wastes become
 fertilizer, part 1
 by Duff Wilson, Seattle Times staff reporter
 
 When you're mayor of a town the size of Quincy,
 Wash., you hear just about
 everything.
 So it was only natural that Patty Martin would catch
 some farmers in her Central
 Washington hamlet wondering aloud why their wheat
 yields were lousy, their corn
 crops thin, their cows sickly.
 Some blamed the weather. Some blamed themselves. But
 only after Mayor Martin led
 them in weeks of investigation did they identify a
 possible new culprit:
 fertilizer.
 They don't have proof that the stuff they put on
 their land to feed it actually
 was killing it. But they discovered something they
 found shocking and that they
 think other American farmers and consumers ought to
 know:
 Manufacturing industries are disposing of hazardous
 wastes by turning them into
 fertilizer to spread around farms. And they're doing
 it legally.
 It's really unbelievable what's happening, but it's
 true, Martin said. They
 just call dangerous waste a product, and it's no
 longer a dangerous waste. It's
 a fertilizer.
 Across the Columbia River basin in Moxee City is
 visual testimony to Martin's
 assertion. A dark powder from two Oregon steel mills
 is poured from rail cars
 into the top of silos attached to Bay Zinc Co. under
 a federal permit to store
 hazardous waste.
 The powder, a toxic byproduct of the steel-making
 process, is taken out of the
 bottom of the silos as a raw material for fertilizer.

 When it goes into our silo, it's a hazardous waste,
 said Bay Zinc President
 Dick Camp. When it comes out of the silo, it's no
 longer regulated. The exact
 same material. Don't ask me why. That's the wisdom of
 the EPA.
 What's happening in Washington is happening around
 the United States. The use of
 industrial toxic waste as a fertilizer ingredient is
 a growing national
 phenomenon, an investigation by The Seattle Times has
 found.
 The Times found examples of wastes laden with heavy
 metals being recycled into
 fertilizer to be spread across crop fields.
 Legally.
 In Gore, Okla., a uranium-processing plant is getting
 rid of low-level
 radioactive waste by licensing it as a liquid
 fertilizer and spraying it over
 9,000 acres of grazing land.
 In Tifton County, Ga., more than 1,000 acres of
 peanut crops were wiped out by a
 brew of hazardous waste and limestone sold to
 unsuspecting farmers.
 And in Camas, Clark County, highly corrosive,
 lead-laced waste from a pulp mill
 is hauled to Southwest Washington farms and spread
 over crops grown for
 livestock consumption.
 Recycling said to have benefits
 Any material that has fertilizing qualities can be
 labeled and used as a
 fertilizer, even if it contains dangerous chemicals
 and heavy metals.
 The wastes come from iron, zinc and aluminum
 smelting, mining, cement kilns, the
 burning of medical and municipal wastes, wood-product
 slurries and a variety of
 other heavy industries.
 Federal and state governments encourage the practice
 in the name of recycling
 and, in fact, it has some benefits: Recycling waste
 as fertilizer saves
 companies money and conserves precious space in
 hazardous-waste landfills. And,
 mixed and handled correctly, the material can help
 crops grow.
 It's a situation where we are facing an
 overabundance of these materials in
 landfills and, of course, landfills are getting
 full, said Ali Kashani, who
 directs fertilizer regulation in Washington state.
 So they (waste producers)
 are constantly looking for ways 

Re: [biofuel] WW2

[Greg and April]

They have built a Rocket Pack, that uses nothing but H2O2 as the propellant,
and a platinum catalyst.  It produces enough direct thrust, to lift it's
self and the person it is strapped onto for about 30 seconds.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: mark schofield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 08:07
Subject: Re: [biofuel] WW2


 The other catalyst I believe was manganese
 dioxide. You can actually buy peroxide and
 gasoline driven rockets as hobby kits.

 Mark




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Re: [biofuel] WW2

[Greg and April]

I don't remember, I think may have been a small turbine that spun a
generator, that drove the electric motors.  The reason it came about, is
because the U.S. and British navies were using things from radar to trained
seagulls ( the seagulls would fly around until they found and sat on a
snorkel, and the added contrast of the seagulls white body sitting on
something in the middle of the ocean, was supposed to make it easier to find
the snorkel ).

As for a Google search,  U-boat , came up with over 100,000 results ( way
to much to search ), and a search of   U-boat engine , came back with very
limited results, mostly about allied air attacks on the factories that
produced them, but, a couple was about the one or two for sale.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: BRANT LUCAS [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 17:48
Subject: RE: [biofuel] WW2


 Greg ,  That's an interesting concept. What type of engine or turban did
 they use ?

 Try a search on U-Boats. The site shows many classes and designs.

 I believe it was on this site that the fuel capacity was given for each
 class.

 Some boats took on twice as much H2O2 as diesel fuel.

 Or it was the other way around.   ? .

 If you wont to be impressed check these boats out.

   -Original Message-
   From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:52 PM
   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [biofuel] WW2


   Yea, they used 80%-85% ( or stronger ) H2O2, and reacted it with
Potassium
   Permanente the result was a steam driven submarine.

   Greg H.

   - Original Message -
   From: Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:05
   Subject: [biofuel] WW2


In WW2 the Germans had a SUB that use H2O2 and ran faster than a
normal
SUB Any ideals on how that did that?
   
David Wood


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 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Re: [biofuel] Re: how much do you know

[Greg and April]

I would like a copy please.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 00:12
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: how much do you know


  I have developed an acceleration modeling program which demonstrates
  many of these concepts.  Let me know if anyone would like to play with
  it and I will send it along.  I can also send a full set of the
  applicable equations.
  
  Respectfully,
  
  Forbes
 
 
  I would.  Thank you!
 


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Re: [biofuel] WW2,peroxide power

[Greg and April]

The Japanese Long Lance torpedoes were something to be feared, they had a
range and speed that was almost unbelievable for the time, if we had them,
the war, would have been over allot sooner.  As it was, for the first few
years in the war,  the U.S. was too busy dodging there own torpedoes, as
they would many times, circle around and hit the ship/boat/sub that launched
them.  We lost plenty of people to that.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: gobie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 20:37
Subject: Re: [biofuel] WW2,peroxide power


 The site makes for very interesting reading I especially liked the 1935 to
 1945 section.
 Interesting little snippets like the British training seagulls to sit on
 periscopes to make the submerged sub easier to spot.
 The  Japanese I Boat that fired a cluster of six torpedos at a ship in a
 convoy. Three hit the target sinking it, the other three ran for a further
 12 Km, encountered another convoy, damaging two more ships and the sixth
 torpedo kept going.
Contrast this to the early war scenario where torpedos
 were unreliable. On sub fired off its its 24 torpedos during its tour of
 duty, plenty of hits but only one exploded. However it did sink one ship
 when the unexploded torpedo punctured the rusty hull..
 Regards   Paul Gobert.







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Re: [biofuel] Ammonia

[Greg and April]

Since we were talking about Ammonia, and another list we were talking about
a regenitive cooling method using Ammonia, I thought I would cross-post the
information in case anyone might want to look into it.


Now keep in mind that the information is not extensive, but, with what I
give you and some research into the CROSLEY Icy Ball, I did on the net, it
might put you on the right track.

A test of Sodium Thiocyanate - Ammonia was made using a 20-lb. blackened
steel cylinder, containing 12-lbs of 50% / 50% by weight of  Sodium
Thiocyanate and  Ammonia.  An ordinary 4 - foot parabolic solar cooker was
focused on the cylinder, which was connected by a flexible pressure hose to
a smaller vessel immersed in water at room temp.  After heating for 4 hours,
most of the Ammonia had been driven into the smaller vessel.   The generator
was removed from the heat source, and the small vessel was placed overnight
in an insulated box containing water.   When removed from its heat source,
the Sodium Thiocyanate in the large cylinder cooled and re-absorbed the
Ammonia from the small vessel.  The evaporation of the liquid Ammonia cooled
the contents of the insulated box, and 9-lbs. of ice was produced. 

CROSLEY Icy Ball:

http://www.refresearch.com/m-icyball.html
http://www.ggw.org/~cac/IcyBall/crosley_icyball.html
http://www.ggw.org/~cac/IcyBall/HomeBuilt/HomeBuilt.html
http://www.ggw.org/~cac/IcyBall/HomeBuilt/HallPlans/IB_Directions.html

Greg H.


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Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel

[Greg and April]

Methanol is the simplest of alcohols, with the chem. formula of CH3OH, it is
also a liquid, how do you compress it?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: greg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 14:45
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel


 what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car. same as
 with propane.   greg
 -Original Message-
 From: Pieter Koole [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel


 How does one use NH3 as energy source ?
 I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution
 coming
 out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens.
 If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it would
be
 great.
 
 Pieter Koole
 
 - Original Message -
 From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED];
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]; biofuel@yahoogroups.com;
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:35 PM
 Subject: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
 
 
  It isn't clear to me at what temperature it can become liquid.  It
  seems to me that a big part of why I was advocating other fuels is
  that, in liquid form, they can be transported and used with greater
  energy density.  I do think it's close to being easily made into a
  liquid, but that at room temperature it's gaseous?
 
  http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/ammonia.htm
  http://www.slider.com/enc/2000/ammonia_Properties.htm
 
  There does seem some indication that it is toxic in some extent.
  This is not to preclude your suggestion, just to examine the pros and
  cons a little.
 
  Wasn't ammonia used as a refrigerant and then replaced with CFC's?
 
  Note that several people appear to be cc'ing to other groups in
  response to my own cc's.  When I initiate this, I do it because my
  experience has been that I get a wider range of more-enlightening
  response, even if there are some significant downsides to this, such
  as disjointed conversations.  If you wish for your posts to appear in
  the other groups, I think the way yahoo works, you'd just have to join
  them, otherwise the cc: is wasted.  If it is not that important, then
  fine.  I moderate the evworld.com group and the energyproduction one
  that I just maintain for myself it seems.
 
  But I am not stumping for membership, just going over something that
  seems to now pertain to several people.  I did send out invites for
  the evworld.com group because it seemed a way to alert some that their
  posts were not being seen on that group, in case they weren't fully
  aware.
 
  MM
 
 
  On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:11:24 EDT, you wrote:
 
  You're welcome!!
  
  Now, about liquifiable fuels--  You didn't mention one of my
favorites,
  ammonia, NH3.  Its energy density is a little lower than methanol, but
 notice that
  it contains no carbon and can be catalytically reduced to hydrogen and
  nitrogen.  I am not aware of environmental problems with this
substance.
 It is
  currently used at very high tonnages for fertilizer without any
reported
 problems.
  
  Ernie Rogers
  
   Thanks for the feedback Ernie.
  
  
  
  
  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  
  
  
  ==
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Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: Robert Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 19:26
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel


 Somehow, we must get the messages in better order.

 Ammonia was never discussed as a fuel. It's entire use in this discussion
was that of a transportation medium for the hydrogen.

 While ammonia will burn, there are plenty of reasons that one does not
want to be around it. It can kill.

 Ammonia has a boiling point of -21 degrees F and will lay in a liquid
form wherever you want to have it. As the temperature of ammonia rises, it
will require pressure to hold it in the liquid form. At 100 degrees F, the
pressure required to keep it in the liquid form is 210 psig.

 Bob


Look at the message I was responding to ( directly below ) Bob.   Some how,
Greg ( not Greg H. myself ) was equating methanol as being NH3, when it is
not.  Perhaps Greg, was thinking Methane ( CH4 ), instead of Methanol (
CH3OH ), but typed Methanol instead.  You can get Methane form the same
source as the NH3, with some processing ( a Methane Digester ), but, that is
completely different.

As to Pieter Kools question,  If the excreatment ( can we say that on this
list? ), which is the source of the heavy NH3 in the air, is run through a
Methane Digester,  the amount of Ammonia ( NH3 ), filling the air would be
cut down to almost nothing, and the Nitrogen would be recoverable in a
usable form for farming, and BioGas would be available for use as well.

Funny thing, You could use the Methane Digester to reduce the NH3 in the
air, put the recoverable N back into the ground, make biogas, which in turn
( with the proper equipment ) can be made into syngas, and from there
reformed into Methanol which could power your car.

Greg H.

 - Original Message -
 From: greg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:45 PM
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel


  what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car. same as
  with propane.   greg
  -Original Message-
  From: Pieter Koole [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
 
 
  How does one use NH3 as energy source ?
  I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution
  coming
  out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or
chickens.
  If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it
would
 be
  great.
  
  Pieter Koole


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Re: [biofuel] WW2,peroxide power

[Greg and April]

Do you know if H2O2 is subject to electrolysis like H2O is?   If it is, it
might work.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: gobie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 21:37
Subject: Re: [biofuel] WW2,peroxide power


 Wonder has anyone tried deriving oxygen from H2O2 to supercharge an
ICE?

  Regards,   Paul Gobert.



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Re: [biofuel] Fumigation (was WW2,peroxide power).

[Greg and April]

The kicker is, you have to deal with keeping the H2O2 cool, because it will
detiorate when hot.  If your going to use a catalyst, you may as well use
Platinum / Palladium, because then you will not always be replacing it  like
you would with some powder.  Other wise use electrolysis, then you could get
full use of both the Hydrogen and the Oxygen.   A very fine mist, injected
into the cylinder or carburetor might work as well as the heat from the
firing would split the Oxygen off and the resulting H2O would turn to steam,
giving more expansion than just the combustion products alone.

I don't know if all the effort would be worth it though, because you would
have the added expense of the H2O2 and the maintenance that would go with
it, and there are allot of unknowns, such as what will happen to the H2O2
when subject to below freezing temps.?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: gobie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 00:55
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fumigation (was WW2,peroxide power).


 Not sure about that was thinking of using a catalyst to extract the oxygen
 from it.  Manganese dioxide for instance. Air being one fifth oxygen if
pure
 oxygen was fed to a spark engine and sufficient fuel injected, five times
 the power should be available in theory. Even given losses i doubt if any
 engine made would stand the mechanical stresses involved. Would need the
 production of a lot of oxygen on board even if restricted to part throttle
 operation or supplementation of the oxygen level.
 Cheaper and more practical to supercharge or turbocharge.
 Anyone with a spare cylinder of oxygen and a fuel injection system capable
 of supplying enough fuel care to experiment?
 Don't have a petrol injected vehicle here but keen to try out fumigation
of
 my diesel with LPG. Was going to try feeding it oxygen until i found out
 that enough oxygen is not the problem with diesel engines, feeding LPG
into
 air inlet can result in either increased performance or increased economy
 depending upon how it is set up.
 Some very good information at:
 http://www.leeric.lsu.edu/bgbb/7/ecep/diesel/i/i.htm

 Interesting possibilities for running a stationary diesel engine on
biogas.
 This is already practised at waste sites etc for electricity generation.
 Rudolf Diesel was aware of the potential and covered the technique in his
 patent.

 Regards,   Paul Gobert.




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Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618

[Greg and April]

We have talked about this one before.  And the all diesel motorcycle that
the US army is putting through trials.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Mike Pelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 00:53
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618


 How about a 180 miles per gallon Diesel
 hybrid/electric motorcycle that goes 0 to 60 in 6
 seconds and can do 80 miles per hour. Who ever said
 greeners can't have a good time?
 http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hybrid.htm From Mike


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Re: [biofuel] WW2

[Greg and April]

It's simple, he has to get were he's going in 30 sec., although I think that
the latest model is all the way up to a 45 sec. duration.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Christopher Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 04:29
Subject: RE: [biofuel] WW2


 And  what  happens to the person with the rocket pack after the 30 seconds
 is up? I wouldn't want to  be  in  his shoes. =0  lol

 Christopher



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Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel and BioGas

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 11:04
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel





 ... but not until the sludge has been composted. That it's rich in
 N, P and K doesn't necessarily make it a good fertilizer, and in fact
 it's fraught with VOCs and other stuff that kills the soil life
 (including the micorrhizal fungi) and destroys the soilfood web.


 VOC's , I know I should know it, but, for the life of me I can't remember
right now. Volatile Organic Compounds?  I always thought that the sludge
should be composted before using.   Would the composting take care of them?
I remember reading a book about Methane Digesters, and the author stated
that after a certain amount of spillage (a few months after he started ),
were he unloaded the sludge ( into a tanker for spreading on his fields ) he
had a big flush of mushrooms, that never seamed to go away.  If this is true
could not the micorrhizal fungi also benefit with limited application?

 Biogas and composting can go very well together, not necessarily
 either one or the other.


True.


 And a bit more than that. Why don't you join in the other current
 thread on biogas? It's of much interest to all biofuellers - re which
 more later.


I have missed some of that, for some reason, Yahoo ( funny, how I always
want to call it something else when I'm mad at them ), is not sending me all
of the messages from this list in particular, but, from a few others as
well.  It may be that I notice it more on this list, due to it's higher
activity.

Re: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618

[Greg and April]

Last I had heard, the troops preferred, them over the standard motorbike,
better low end response and torque, actually made them better in rough
country, despite the face that the standard motorbike ( that it was being
tested agenst ) had a slightly higher top speed on the flats and good roads.
A few civilians have been allowed to try them out under supervision, and
they to had favorable impressions, enough so that they were predicting that
if they ever became available to the civilian market, that it would be a
money maker.

- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 11:10
Subject: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618


 What's the status of the army diesel bike, anybody know? Seems to
 have been testing for a long time.



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Re: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618

[Greg and April]

Here are some URLs about the military diesel motorcycles.

http://motorcyclecity.com/Military-bikes/M1030Diesel-Kawasaki.htm
http://www.sbsun.com/Stories/0,1413,208%257E12588%257E1073385,00.html

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 11:54
Subject: Re: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618


 Last I had heard, the troops preferred, them over the standard motorbike,
 better low end response and torque, actually made them better in rough
 country, despite the face that the standard motorbike ( that it was being
 tested agenst ) had a slightly higher top speed on the flats and good
roads.
 A few civilians have been allowed to try them out under supervision, and
 they to had favorable impressions, enough so that they were predicting
that
 if they ever became available to the civilian market, that it would be a
 money maker.

 - Original Message - 
 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 11:10
 Subject: Diesel bikes - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1618


  What's the status of the army diesel bike, anybody know? Seems to
  have been testing for a long time.
 




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[biofuel] Fw: Natural Gas Crisis

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: Donna Fezler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 07:20
Subject: [SANET-MG] Contents of
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/062303_nat_gas_crisis.html


 Fertilizer Prices Up 55%

 US Chemical Industry Suffering - Jobs at Risk

 Cities Facing Brownouts

 The Shape of Things to Come

 Natural Gas Crisis

 by Dale Allen Pfeiffer

 © Copyright 2003, From The Wilderness Publications,
 www.copvcia.com. All Rights Reserved. May be reprinted,
 distributed or posted on an Internet web site for
 non-profit purposes only.

 June 23, 2003, 2000 PDT (FTW) --Forget about terrorists.
 Don't give another thought to SARS. The single greatest
 threat to the U.S. right now comes from a critical shortage
 of natural gas. The impending crisis will affect all
 consumers directly in the pocket book, and it may well mean
 that some people won't survive next winter. The problem is
 not with wells or pumps. The problem is that North America
 is running out and there is no replacement supply.

 Natural gas stocks are currently at 1,199 billion cubic
 feet (Bcf), over 39% short of what they were last year at
 this time (1,954 Bcf). The storage refill season has so far
 proceeded at a very modest pace, though buyers recently
 pushed up their purchases to record levels.1 The peak
 storage refill period runs from May through mid-July. By
 late July, summer electricity demand usually limits the
 amount of natural gas available for storage. Weekly storage
 levels tend to taper off through the summer, rise again
 slightly in September, and then drop to nothing as the
 winter heating season starts up in October. There is very
 little time left to replace the record withdrawals that
 occurred this last winter, and the peak refill season is
 nearly over. What is more, analysts are saying that we need
 to do more than just replace what was used last winter. In
 order to avoid a crisis next winter, we must build our
 storage up to record levels.

 Let's take a look at the Natural Gas (NG) situation in an
 effort to understand what is happening. And then let's lay
 in an extra load of firewood for that woodstove, and see
 about double insulating the household before next winter.

 Review

 Even though oil and gas are almost always found in the same
 places and originate from the same organic matter, let's
 remind ourselves that Natural Gas is different from oil by
 nature. Being a gas as opposed to a liquid, once a well is
 drilled it takes relatively little effort to pump out the
 gas. There is little tapering off in production, little
 need to expend more energy driving the gas to the well
 hole. Natural Gas production profiles generally have a
 rise, a plateau, and then a steep cliff with little warning
 as the pressure in the well drops and the play peters out.
 Likewise, NG reserves are much more responsive to drilling
 than are oil reserves. The more wells you sink into a gas
 reserve, the more NG you will extract, and the quicker you
 will deplete the reserve.

 We must also bear in mind that, while the world as a whole
 is nowhere near peaking in NG production, the same is not
 true for North America. There may be massive known reserves
 of NG still untapped around the globe (especially in
 Russia), but that does us little good here. This is because
 NG is not easily transported overseas. First it must be
 chilled to liquid form in special processing plants, loaded
 onto specially built Liquid Natural Gas (LNG) tankers,
 shipped to specially designed offloading ports, and then
 reverted back to gaseous form.

 All of this cuts into the net energy of LNG and adds to the
 price. And the amount of LNG that can be shipped in this
 manner is limited by the size and number of tankers and the
 length of time for one full trip (from the Middle East to
 the US and back, with loading and unloading, up to half a
 year per tanker according to some sources).

 The US has few LNG tankers and still fewer offloading
 ports, though there are plans to build more. It is unlikely
 that we will ever meet a significant portion of our NG
 demand through the use of LNG.

 Over the past several years, US electricity producers have
 looked increasingly to Natural Gas as the cleanest way to
 produce electricity. Between electricity generation,
 heating demand and industrial demand, our NG usage has
 grown remarkably. And demand is continuing to grow. The
 power sector alone will account for most of this growth; it
 is expected to add another 2.5-3.0 Trillion Cubic Feet
 (Tcf) to the national demand between now and the end of the
 decade.2

 The California gas crisis of 2000-2001 was a largely
 manufactured crisis due to greed in the privatized market.
 Energy sharks were able to magnify a slight NG deficit into
 a full-blown crisis through manipulation of the market and
 manipulation of regional NG supply. This was the fruit of
 deregulation.

 Unfortunately, the criminal activities of 

Re: [biofuel] Natural gas crisis

[Greg and April]

That's all fine and dandy, but, with four mouths to feed, and my having been
laid off for over 2 years, some things have a little more priority for the
what little is in the wallet, and it's not like I have not been trying.  At
this point not even local McD's will hire me because I'm over qualified, and
they have a high school full of kids ( that can work for less than I ) right
across the street.

Believe me, we sit in an 80 F house, that could go higher, but, we can't let
it because of the kids,  the only reason I water the lawn is that is were I
get the mulch for the garden, and I get billed double for the water because
a bunch of jerks in California want to have their cake and eat it too.

Now I'm facing even a harder time getting a job because of the NG problems,
and I'm told I should build something ( that I don't have the money for ) to
have on hand to over come the NG problems this country is facing?   Sure.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Robert Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 10:12
Subject: [biofuel] Natural gas crisis


 Now go get the wife or girlfriend and sit down and discuss. Start slowly
and build a small portion of what you think is right for you. If it works
this winter, add to it, if it doesn't change the ideas and try again next
year. All my idea's didn't work either and some of them had to be changed,
it's called a learning curve!!

 Bob




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Re: [biofuel] Natural gas crisis

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: Robert Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 18:13
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Natural gas crisis


 Hey, I've been in your position before. Think small and grow.
 Do you have access to an old water heater of about 80 gallons? The only
part we want is the inner tank and it to hold water. Scrap yard, recycle
center, local dump, local plumber or plumbing company

 Now find a sliding glass door like at the glass shop where they changed
one out for a customer wanting a new one with double pane glass, etc. All we
want is the glass..

 You now have everything except the 2x4 frame and some plywood to build a
bread box solar water heater. There are plans at several internet sites if
you need them. Oh don't forget the 94 cent wal mart rattle can of flat black
paint!! Paint the tank after you strip all the outside covering off of it.
Build the box and use the sliding glass door for the side that faces the
sun.

 Hook it up with a couple of garden hoses so that when it gets hot enough
you can transfer the hot water to your regular tank and use the cold water
in the regular tank to water the lawn or your garden.

The problem is, I would still have to pay for all of it.  For the general
local good, and my bad luck, there is a pretty good recycling busness of
construction and scrap metals around here, and they charge all the market
will bear.  Want some scrap metal, such as a used hot water heater?  You are
going to pay to the scrap dealer what he would get for it from the next guy
up, $15.00 - $20.00 ( despite the fact that he only paied $5.00 - $10.00 for
it ), and the plumbers know this, so they generaly haul them away themselves
( as one of them once put it to me,  it's worth a case of beer or sado when
I get off the clock ), I used to work in the remodling business, I knew
this, my boss knew this and got half of everything I got for salvage, due to
were and tear on the company truck.   The dump is privately owned, once
something is in there, it does not come out,  because it might be a health
hazard .

We are flat broke. The bottom line is, if I don't find work in 6 months or
so, we are going to lose out, and might just have to file for banrupcy and /
or sell what little we have.  I wouldn't even be online right know, except
that the wife knows I am useing it to look for work.


 You have just begun to use mother nature to your advantage. As time
progresses and money dictates, improve on your original design.

 By the way, I was in Home depot Sunday and they had 5/8 OD copper water
tubing for $5.00 per 20 foot length. These work well in a homemade solar
panel. I used lots of them myself. I homebuilt the first 160 square feet
myself and yes, I didn't get it done over night either.

 Helping in the too hot department; ever noticed that when you park your
car in the sun, things get hot and when you park your car in the shade,
things stay cool? House will do the same thing. Tarps, lattice, anything
that will stop the input of the sun and then improve the design as money
allows.

I would love to do things like that, in fact I wanted to do some plantings
that would shade the house, but can't even afford those.  $4.50 each for
some vines that would cover the entire south side of the house ( would have
needed 4-6 ), would have been wounderful, had it not taken 2-3 years to
achieve, and I had an extra $30.00 or so.   At this point, I'm have been
picking up every penny I find on the ground, for so long, I don't even
remember how long I have been doing it, but, it has been long enough, that
it is second nature to me now ( you should see how excited I get if it is a
dime or a quarter  8-P  )

It easy to talk about looking more than 30 - 60 days in the future, but, if
you are just trying to get through that 30 - 60 days, not much call for
trying to look much further ahead than that, if you don't even know were
money is going to be coming from at that time.

Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Natural gas crisis

[Greg and April]

In many places, it doesn't matter who builds it, it has to meet codes.  Even
if you build it, and then sell it to someone else to install, you could find
yourself in deep DooDoo, if a part fails and causes damage or injury.

Look at the sniper attacks around Washington D.C. for example, Bushmaster
built the rifle and sold it to a dealer - no big deal, it happens every day,
but, someone else stole it from the dealer and misused it, but, Bushmaster
is named as one of the defendants in a civil lawsuit.  Now if John Q. Doe
had found that the firing pin in that rifle was broken, and fixed the rifle
by replacing the firing pin, with one made by the Acme Firing pin and Widget
company, they too could be named defendants, because  if  the Acme Firing
pin and Widget company hadn't of made the firing pin, and  if  John Q. Doe
had not fixed the rifle with it, those people might still be alive today.

Don't you just love the court system?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 21:55
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Natural gas crisis


 Kirk, that brings up a question I've been thinking about.
 If you want to build something like this and sell it, what kind of
 legalities would be involved? If you just build it - none, right?
 If you install it you need insurance correct?










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Re: [biofuel] Natural gas crisis

[Greg and April]

Sold most of my tools to pay bills, and have kids to watch.  Ever see the
movie Mr. Mom?  That's me at this point.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 17:28
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Natural gas crisis


 Build it for someone else and get paid for it.



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Re: [biofuel] Natural gas crisis

[Greg and April]

A good man once said,  Lawyers are the vultures that pray upon the hurts
and ills of man kind , I believe him, and I have to wonder if that is any
reason why most politicians are lawyers?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 22:46
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Natural gas crisis


 Lawyers are killing this country. Seems to be what they always eventually
 do. I believe Voltaire said France would not be free until the last lawyer
 was hung by the entrails of the last priest.

 As for what you are going to sell it depends on where you are. Most codes
 aren't all that difficult. You soon know what they are. My first central
air
 job I plumbed the condensate drain with 1/2 inch PVC. Code calls for 3/4.
So
 I had to replace it. No big deal, and after that I knew what I had to do,
at
 least with condensate drains.

 Lawyers make lousy business managers because they know the law and how
they
 can get into trouble. The rest of us manage to muddle through and
sometimes
 are a success in the process. 100 years from know I doubt anyone will know
 we existed so I realize I am a walk on in the mob scene in the theater of
 life so I don't take it too seriously. I suppose a lot of what I did in
 business was like the rest of the guys -- on faith with a wing and a
prayer.

 Kirk



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[biofuel] Hydrogen hype?

[Greg and April]

Cheaper Way Found to Produce Hydrogen

June 26, 2003 08:03 PM EDT


WASHINGTON - Organic wastes such as paper mill sludge or cheese whey can be
converted into hydrogen using an inexpensive metal catalyst, researchers
say, in a process that could boost efforts to replace oil and gas fuels.

Researchers at the University of Wisconsin tested more than 300 metal
combinations before finding that a mix of nickel, tin and aluminum could
separate hydrogen from a mixture rich in glucose, a sugar common in many
organic wastes. A report on the study appears Friday in the journal Science.

Glenn L. Schrader, a National Science Foundation chemical engineer who
supervises grants for hydrogen research projects, said the catalyst could be
a significant advance in efforts to develop a hydrogen-based energy system.

We really need to develop fuel cells that use metals cheaper than platinum
and this work provides a very promising lead, he said.

Many experts believe that hydrogen eventually will replace oil and gas as
the energy that drives industry and transportation. Hydrogen burns cleanly
and there is an almost unlimited supply. A major technical problem has been
finding a cheap way to separate hydrogen from other compounds and to store
the fuel efficiently and safely.

The most likely immediate application of hydrogen would be in fuel cells,
which combine hydrogen and oxygen to make electricity, heat and water.

James Dumesic, a professor of chemical engineering at the University of
Wisconsin and lead author of the study, said the combination metal catalyst
worked as efficiently in laboratory tests as a much more expense platinum
catalyst, and at a lower temperature and pressure.

Platinum is known to be excellent for chemically separating hydrogen, but
the rare metal cost about $8,000 a pound, many times more than the tin,
nickel and aluminum used in the Wisconsin device, experts said.

Dumesic said the hydrogen catalyst is, in effect, a pressure cooker filled
with pellets made of nickel, tin and aluminum. A stream of raw stock rich in
glucose and heated to 437 degrees is introduced into the device. The glucose
reacts with the metal pellets, and hydrogen and carbon dioxide separate from
the mix.

The hydrogen and carbon dioxide kind of bubble up, said Dumesic.

The gas is piped away and then cooled.

Dumesic said the hydrogen-carbon dioxide mix could be used as a fuel in some
applications or the CO2 could be separated out using a second, simpler
process.

Catalysts made of nickel and aluminum do produce hydrogen, but also methane,
an unwanted pollutant. By adding more tin to the combination, the production
of methane was halted, while the production of hydrogen was increased,
Dumesic said.

Dumesic said the Wisconsin device, using the combination of common metals,
could reduce the catalyst cost by 10 to 100 times.

In theory, the catalyst could use any organic waste flow rich in glucose as
a feed stock. Dumesic said he and his associates are now developing a system
that would produce about one kilowatt of power.

He said if the pilot plant works as expected, then the first application may
be at dairy processing plant, such as a cheese factory, where dairy wastes
could be used as the feed stock. Waste from pulp mill, corn processing
plants, or food processing factories could be a source of hydrogen, said
Dumesic.

The combination metal catalyst has been patented and is controlled by the
Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation. Dumesic said he is co-founder of a
company that has been licensed to the use the patent in developing energy
systems. He said he has a personal financial interest in the success of the
effort.

--- 

On the Net:

Science: www.sciencemag.org







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[biofuel] Glycerine

[Greg and April]

Does anyone know what would happen to Glycerine, if added to a methane
digester?  Would it gum up  the works, or would it  digest  ?

Greg H.


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Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen hype?

[Greg and April]

Sorry about getting back to this issue late, I am an assistant scoutmaster,
and I just got back from a camp out.

The thing about a H2 fuel cell, is that it does not require a reformer, that
will split the Hydrogen atoms off of the other atoms ( Carbon and Oxygen in
the case of methanol and ethanol), this would allow a higher efficiency, and
lower cost ( not to mention that reformers can be poisoned if bad fuel is
used ).  I don't remember the entire process of making ethanol from woody
waste, but, if I remember correctly, you need sulfuric acid and need to cook
it for quite some time before it can be fermented, while it sounds like this
method would shorten the amount of time and may need less energy overall to
produce a fuel.  The H2 and CO2 are prime feed stocks for methanol
production, and I would rather see it used that way than for a H2 fuel cell
myself.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Hakan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 09:53
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen hype?



 Greg,

 What do you think?

 I would probably suspect that a more efficient way to use those
 feed stocks would be Ethanol production. Why would you use
 glucose rich feed stock for Hydrogen. Why would you absolutely
 need hydrogen for fuel cells, I do not really understand the goals
 for this. Ethanol and Methanol fuel cells are already on the market.

 It beats me, feel a bit lost because I probably missed something.
 Could also be a new version of the Emperor's new cloth. Could
 collect a lot of research money.



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Re: [biofuel] About those numbers...

[Greg and April]

80 - 90 MPH for any vehicle is scary, it don't matter how much it weighs at
that point, it is going to turn someone into goo if things go wrong.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Tim Castleman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 14:46
Subject: [biofuel] About those numbers...



 Hey, I love the Lupo, but frankly, the thought of being on the same road
as
 a 6000 pound SUV going 80 to 90 MPH, well, that's a little bit scary to
me!



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Re: [biofuel] Help with some simple numbers?CATCH 22

[Greg and April]

You don't need petroleum fertilizer, that's what the chemical / fertilizer
companies want you to think.  In a sustainable situation, you can compost
the glycerin, with the woody crop debris, and use green manures and cover
crops and fertilize with that just fine.

Think about it, 5/12ths of the petroleum is not really needed, and can
actually cause more problems than it solves.  The micro flora and fauna, in
the soil, is for the most part harmed by the repeated application of such
fertilizer made with petroleum.  Without the micro flora and fauna, the soil
structure collapses, have you ever heard of the term  salted the soil of
their enemies ?  They were killing the micro flora and fauna of the soil,
and made it hard to grow anything for a number of years after that causing
famine and hard times.  And to think that the petrochemical companies have
most farmers convinced that the only way to survive is to kill the soil even
further.

Haven't you ever wondered why the amount of petroleum fertilizer that has to
be applied to get the same yields get's higher and higher?  The stuff is the
equivalent of candy to humans.   Yes, it gives energy, but, no real long
term nutrition.

My back yard hasn't seen a drop of petroleum fertilizer, a little wood
ashes, and some dried molasses, compliment the clover that was seeded 3
years ago, and I have grass and clover 12 -18 inches high except were I cut
it from time to time to provide mulch for my garden.   I haven't used any
thing in the garden but compost, wood  ashes, dried molasses, and the grass
clippings.   While some of my corn isn't doing so well, the rest of the corn
is and the squash, beans, pumpkin, onions, and garlic is doing great, it's
been a little to cool this year for good results with tomatoes, but, the few
short season tomatoes that have made it so far, already have blooms on them
* less than a month after putting them in *.  I going after the thistles and
morning glory with a hoe, with a vengeance, but, I interplanted buckwheat in
my garden to draw in bees ( something else that is being killed off with the
petro/agriculture going on now ), and I'm letting it and the rest of the 
weeds  grow as a green mulch ( I haven't had to water the onions or garlic
but maybe 2 or 3 times in the last 1 1/2 - 2 months ) and next spring, I'm
going to till it all in.

Please tell me how much we really need all of that so called fertilizer,
because that is the stuff, that really fertilizes.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Irwin Levinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 13:41
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Help with some simple numbers?CATCH 22


 CATCH 22
 only 1/3 of the petroleum drawn is used as fuel; 5/12th is used as
fertilizer, other fractions as lubicants, chemicals,dyes, explosives,
plastics, etc bio diesel can solve some of the transport probs but we need
the fertilizer to grow BIODIESEL.


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Re: [biofuel] Help with some simple numbers?CATCH 22

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 12:19
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Help with some simple numbers?CATCH 22


 The official mantra is:
 The Solution to Pollution is Dilution


There is something to that, not a lot, but something.   If a
material/chemical is diluted far enough, then it can biodegraded, with out
killing off the flora / fauna that is doing the job, but, somethings need
dilution in time as well dilution of concentration, and the power that be
just don't care.



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Re: [biofuel] Help with some simple numbers?CATCH 22

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 14:51
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Help with some simple numbers?CATCH 22

I don't normally consider lead to be toxic, unless it is ingested ( or
injected at high velocity ), but, I see what you mean.

 Uranium is still uranium,
 plutonium is still plutonium,

I was thinking of these when I was talking about time.

 lead is still lead, and so on but not enough
 to kill more than a few cells. A few more and you are ill, more yet and
more
 ill.

True, though, it is more individual in nature, some people can handle more
than others, before showing any effects.

Then there is concentration in the food chain which these troglodytes
 ignore. Thus the cows died. Might have been us.


True. I don't disagree with you, I'm just thinking of a other things that
can biodegrade, if they are not in concentrations that would kill the things
that would degrade them.

Greg H.


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Re: [biofuel] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work.

[Greg and April]

Ah... Robert, you need 2 O2 for each H2, for combustion.  The result is 2
H2O.  Simple high school chemistry.  Water is literally hydrogen oxide.

H2O2, HYDROGEN PEROXIDE is very reactive, and breaks down to H2O and O2 on
the flimsiest excuse, that is why it is kept in dark plastic bottles ( or
other light tight containers ), so light can't cause it to react and break
down.   H2O2 is an oxidizer, it gives up it's extra oxygen.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Robert Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 14:10
Subject: Re: [biofuel] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work.


 
 To further complicate things, I cannot find anywhere whereby the molecule
O lives in nature without it's electron attached to form O2. This worrys
me that we may have a uniting of H2 and O2 as an exhaust process which
is HYDROGEN PEROXIDE or in other terms more acid rain as a result. I also
don't know if there are any answers out there as to the environmental
pollution like photochemical smog that will result when the sun hits this
product in mass.




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Re: [biofuel] Researchers find new metal combination for cheaperproduction of hydrogen as fuel

[Greg and April]

True, but, this speeds the process, way up from what I understand.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 22:54
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Researchers find new metal combination for
cheaperproduction of hydrogen as fuel



 Yeah, that's what I thought too. But dammit Robert, you only get
 *round* wheels that way, what's the use of that? No grant money innit.



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Re: [biofuel] Researchers find new metal combination forcheaperproduction of hydrogen as fuel

[Greg and April]

True, but, this method also gives of CO2 as well as the H2.  These two
together, are precursors for Methanol which is a basic feedstock for many of
the common chemicals made / used today, in the petrochemical industry.
With the right catalyst,  H2 and CO2 can be made into a multitude of
different products ( including gasoline ).  I know, I said the bad  G 
word, but, let's face it, this world is not going to get of it's habit
over night.

One thing about this method, is that by altering the metal catalyst a bit,
you produce CH4 -- methane, which is another petrochemical feedstock, as
well as the H2 and CO2.  I think that in the future, that if any
petrochemical wants to truly be green, this might be one of the way they
will do it, for their raw feedstock. Ethanol has a few things that detract
from it as a feedstock, namely a higher carbon to hydrogen ratio, not much,
but, enough to cause an increase in cost, of manufacture, because of the
need to do something with it, be it getting rid of it or collecting it for
other purposes.  Another problem with ethanol, is it's affinity for water,
the added cost of denaturing, and the denaturing materials themselves, all
of which may be unsuitable for feedstock purposes.  On the other hand, the
CO2 and H2 or the CO2, H2, and CH4 ( depending on the catalyst and what the
final product is to be ) would be a good starting feedstock.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 23:24
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Researchers find new metal combination
forcheaperproduction of hydrogen as fuel




 Greg and April wrote:

  True, but, this speeds the process, way up from what I understand.
 
  Greg H.
 

 I ran an experiment with anaerobic hydrogen production from a sugar
solution
 many years ago.  It works just like methanogenesis.  If you want more
hydrogen,
 or want it in a hurry, build a larger digester. . .

 I abandoned the project because fermentation into ethanol produces a
fuel
 that is much easier to handle.  There's a bit less energy involved in
hydrogen
 production, but the need for gas compression narrows that gap
considerably.


 robert luis rabello
 The Edge of Justice
 Adventure for Your Mind
 http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782




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Re: [biofuel] Researchers find new metal combination for cheaper production of hydrogen as fuel

[Greg and April]

A reformer is what many fuel cells use, so that they can use a  heavier 
fuel than H2, but it generally comes at a cost of decreased efficiency.  On
the other hand, fuel cells that run 'hot' like Solid Oxide Fuel cells, are
hot enough that they don't need a separate reformer, and can even use
methane, and NG.  They are experimenting with some that will even use
ultra-low sulfur diesel -- I am personally interested to see how bio-diesel
would work in these.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 01:52
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Researchers find new metal combination for cheaper
production of hydrogen as fuel


 Catalysts made of nickel and aluminum produce hydrogen but also
 produce methane, an unwanted pollutant. By adding more tin to the
 combination, the production of methane was halted, while the
 production of hydrogen was increased, Dumesic said.

 This is a big deal, to me.  I wonder if or how something like it could
work with
 biodiesel or ethanol, allowing them to be reformed onboard and used in
an H2
 fuel cell?



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Re: [biofuel] Researchers find new metal combination forcheaperproduction of hydrogen as fuel

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 09:19
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Researchers find new metal combination
forcheaperproduction of hydrogen as fuel


 Thanks for the explanations.  Wouldn't ethanol be a good end-goal if not a
good
 feedstock?


Keep this part of my explanation in mind;

  Ethanol has a few things that detract
 from it as a feedstock, namely a higher carbon to hydrogen ratio, not
much,
 but, enough to cause an increase in cost, of manufacture, because of the
 need to do something with it, be it getting rid of it or collecting it
for
 other purposes.

And;

 Another problem with ethanol, is it's affinity for water,
 the added cost of denaturing, and the denaturing materials themselves,
all
 of which may be unsuitable for feedstock purposes.

While ethanol would be good for something's, like as a basic fuel, the
taxation and denaturing are problems that would make it a poor feedstock -
you basically have two choices, you denature it with something that may not
be compatible with your chemical processes, or pay a  drinkable ethanol tax
 which raises you overhead / lowers your profit margin -- there are ways
around this, but, they amount to paying for a BATF agent to be on duty in
your facility, not to mention a tremendous amount of paperwork ( personally
I would just as soon avoid that, not that I have anything to hide, but, I
just don't like the idea of having the Govt. looking over my shoulder any
more than it already does ).  This is one of the reasons I would rather work
with methanol than with ethanol, despite the toxicity issue.

Another issue is  Why processes something when you are going to turn around
and reprocess it?   Ethanol is a larger molecule, if you don't need to make
it in the first place then why do it?  Go strait from basic feedstock of H2,
CO2, and maybe CH4 and with the proper temps and catalysts, to a useable
form, without any stopping along the way, you save time and money.

In the end, it all depends  on what you want the end product to be, if you
want ethanol for is own properties, make ethanol.

Greg H.


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Re: [biofuel] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work. and more idea's

[Greg and April]

How do you think that they figure the cost of the rental car?  Besides many
rental agencies charge more if they know that the car is going farther than
X amount out of town and / or have a mileage limitation as far as the
distance you can go from town.

As for license fees, don't you think that they will start requiring the same
fees for these electric buggies?  I guarantee you that as the buggies,
become another mass item, they are going to require the fees if for no other
reason than to raise money ( after all that's what the license fees are all
about in the first place ).  They should not be allowed to use the roads,
because, ( in theory ), part of the fees, for vehicles, is to improve and
maintain the roads.

Sorry, to pop your bubble, but, it is a totally unreal expectation.
Especially in Cali ( and other places ), were many people can not afford to
live in the same city that they work in.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Robert Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 15:47
Subject: Re: [biofuel] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work. and
more idea's



 I was also amused at some of their logic. They expanded on the idea with
justifications like no license fees, (they are presently out of whack in
California today), no sales tax, no maintenance, no depreciation, probable
reduced insurance costs because it would only be needed for the rental car,
multiple people usage for an out of town event whereby others were going as
well; 6 can travel for the same price as 1 or 2, etc..



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Re: [biofuel] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work. and more idea's

[Greg and April]

Yes they are fully registered same as any other car, but, that and upkeep
and repairs, is figured in to the rental rate, and well as things like
deprecation, and the insurance.  Why do you think that it cost more to
reserve and then rent larger vehicle, but, if they don't happen to have the
compact that you reserved, they will give you a  free upgrade  at no extra
cost ( they are not losing money on it, that is for sure ), in most cases,
they average the cost out, for all classes of vehicles for the year that it
is in service and then pass that on to the renter ( in some cases the cost
of the more expensive vehicles is near that of the cheaper vehicles, and it
is carried by the cheaper vehicles.  That is why they can give you $10.00 -
$15.00 off if you upgrade at the counter, and still make money in the
process ).  Then and into the fact that most companies turn around and
retire a vehicle after 1 year of use ( or less ).

This is big problem, because it cost more ( in energy ) to make new vehicle,
than to run a 1980 gas hog for 10 - 20 years if done wise manor.  If it
wasn't for the rental companies, I think that the car companies would listen
more to the avg. consumer.

There is only a few cases were it really makes sense to use a rental car, 1)
Your vehicle breaks down and you have no other option, and needing
transportation, while it is being repaired. 2) Traveling to a different city
by bus, train, or plane, and needing transportation at the destination.

No, rentals are bad news, in the end, they cost more per mile than owning
and maintaining your own.  For the cost of a cheaper rental, at $30.00 a
day, I can change the oil in my vehicle 1 time if I take it to a Jiffy Lube,
and 2+ times if I do it myself.  That same $30.00 covers 60%-75% of a
complete tune up if I take it in to be done by someone else, or just about
100% if I can do it myself.  $800.00 and change a year for insurance...at
first glance that is not good, but, when you consider that that is for 2
vehicles and a homeowners policy ( with a few little extras tacked on ),
that is not bad at all.  Get your self a decent vehicle,  maintain it, and
don't push it, you save a lot, in energy and money.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Robert Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 15:33
Subject: Re: [biofuel] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work. and
more idea's



 As for license fees, they are fully registered same as any other car. This
includes things like property tax, weight fees, and to the moon and back
just because fees. Therefore, they pay for the upkeep and repairs just like
any other car. Whether or not we get the repairs done is another subject.



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Re: [biofuel] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work. and more idea's

[Greg and April]

I'm talking about using rental vehicles.  If you were talking about electric
vehicles, that is a breed of a different kind.

A big problem I have with them, is the fact that people who use them don't
pay a fuel tax that helps maintain the roads that they help tear down.  You
can tax electricity all you want, but in the end, road maintenance taxes are
based on a rough estimate of how much a vehicle tears it up ( X number of
gallons of fuel is going to result in Y amount of repairs being needed
yearly ), I don't mind paying my fair share, but, I expect others to as
well, and electric vehicles don't do this at all.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Robert Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 12:31
Subject: Re: [biofuel] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work. and
more idea's


 If I am reading this right, I think you are under the impression that the
GEM is the rental car; it is not...
 The purpose of the GEM is to use the ability to move locally via electric
energy, (70 to 90 % of senior usage), and rent a gasoline car only for the
long runs or those needing freeway usage and/or runs longer than 15 miles in
one direction.

 They definately have some limitations but seem to fit a segment of the
senior population in the smaller, 50,000 or less, local population area's
and are making news documentarys on tv these days as well.

 If these were combined with solar charging as well, look at all the
hydrocarbon pollution that would no longer exist in today's air.

 Combine this usage with a manufacturer in America, yes, (they are American
made), and the manufacturer will without a doubt build a bigger and faster
model if they think the sales are there. It is a beginning that is being
supported today by the senior population.

 Hope this helped.

 Bob

 Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Yes they are fully registered same as any other car, but, that and upkeep
 and repairs, is figured in to the rental rate, and well as things like
 deprecation, and the insurance.  Why do you think that it cost more to
 reserve and then rent larger vehicle, but, if they don't happen to have
the
 compact that you reserved, they will give you a  free upgrade  at no
extra
 cost ( they are not losing money on it, that is for sure ), in most cases,
 they average the cost out, for all classes of vehicles for the year that
it
 is in service and then pass that on to the renter ( in some cases the cost
 of the more expensive vehicles is near that of the cheaper vehicles, and
it
 is carried by the cheaper vehicles.  That is why they can give you
$10.00 -
 $15.00 off if you upgrade at the counter, and still make money in the
 process ).  Then and into the fact that most companies turn around and
 retire a vehicle after 1 year of use ( or less ).

 This is big problem, because it cost more ( in energy ) to make new
vehicle,
 than to run a 1980 gas hog for 10 - 20 years if done wise manor.  If it
 wasn't for the rental companies, I think that the car companies would
listen
 more to the avg. consumer.

 There is only a few cases were it really makes sense to use a rental car,
1)
 Your vehicle breaks down and you have no other option, and needing
 transportation, while it is being repaired. 2) Traveling to a different
city
 by bus, train, or plane, and needing transportation at the destination.

 No, rentals are bad news, in the end, they cost more per mile than owning
 and maintaining your own.  For the cost of a cheaper rental, at $30.00 a
 day, I can change the oil in my vehicle 1 time if I take it to a Jiffy
Lube,
 and 2+ times if I do it myself.  That same $30.00 covers 60%-75% of a
 complete tune up if I take it in to be done by someone else, or just about
 100% if I can do it myself.  $800.00 and change a year for insurance...at
 first glance that is not good, but, when you consider that that is for 2
 vehicles and a homeowners policy ( with a few little extras tacked on ),
 that is not bad at all.  Get your self a decent vehicle,  maintain it, and
 don't push it, you save a lot, in energy and money.

 Greg H.

 - Original Message - 
 From: Robert Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 15:33
 Subject: Re: [biofuel] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work. and
 more idea's


 
  As for license fees, they are fully registered same as any other car.
This
 includes things like property tax, weight fees, and to the moon and back
 just because fees. Therefore, they pay for the upkeep and repairs just
like
 any other car. Whether or not we get the repairs done is another subject.
 


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Re: [biofuel] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work. and more idea's

[Greg and April]

What are they going to do, take down the odometer reading every year that
you register the Elec. car?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Robert Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 13:21
Subject: Re: [biofuel] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work. and
more idea's


 Fear not on the road tax issue. While the different States will handle it
differently, the ZEV car registration today is being worked out to collect
those road taxes and sales taxes based on milage and vehicle weight.
Everyone will soon be paying their share.

 Bob



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Re: [biofuel] Dead car???

[Greg and April]

It might be nothing more than a busted linkage, then again Personally,
if it were mine I would get an estimate on a getting the transmission fix. I
suspect that it would be a lot less than another vehicle.

After the estimate, you could do a few things, most of which would entail
your daughter learning the value of keeping the car maintained ( IMO ) .

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Grahams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 19:13
Subject: [biofuel] Dead car???


 We were just given a VW Jetta. It had 25 miles, but ran fine.  My
 daughter, 19, who was to get the car, seems to have killed the
transmission
 practicing learning to drive stick.  It seems to only want to go into
third
 gear now.  I tagged it, and had it inspected. I put two new tires on it
and
 a new battery.  What do you all think I should do with it?  Junk it? fix
 it... any idea on cost? Or what is wrong?   I don't want to tow it in for
 an estimate if I should junk it- (the junk yard is across the highway,
 ;)   Any body need a couple of new Jetta tires?  (weep weep) I am in VA,
if
 someone is interested in this project car.
 Caroline




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Re: [biofuel] Tracking a car's mileage Was: The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work. and more idea's

[Greg and April]

The GPS means nothing if the vehicle spends much of it's time in unmapped
territory, or off road.  Because then you have miles logged, but, not spent
on public streets were the funds would go.  Same problem applies to odometer
readings.   Don't get me wrong I think that people should be charges for
their fair share of street use, but, at the same time, they shouldn't be
charged for what they don't use ether.

Don't forget how much Big Brother would love to GPS every last person, just
in case they *might* be a criminal, or become one.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: csakima [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 21:39
Subject: [biofuel] Tracking a car's mileage Was: The Hydrogen hype, the
scam artists at work. and more idea's


 Actually, I was just thinking, you could have every car required to be
 manufactured with a on-board, built in GPS.   Then have that GPS tracked
 from X month  to the same registration month the next year. Then
 have that file cross-referenced with the car's registration/ownership
files.

 THERE ... car registration files ... with how many miles it had traveled
 tacked on the bottom.   Along with where the car went to ... which route
it
 took ... etc.

 No odometer reading necessary.

 Curtis



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[biofuel] Solar Power, $1.00 a watt !

[Greg and April]

August issue of Discover, has an article about a company that thinks they are 
going to be able to meet $1.00 a watt, for solar power.

Greg H.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [biofuel] Tracking a car's mileage Was: The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work. and more idea's

[Greg and April]

Then how does Lojack  Onstar work?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 11:54
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Tracking a car's mileage Was: The Hydrogen hype, the
scam artists at work. and more idea's


 Hi
 I didn't think a GPS could be tracked as it is only a radio RECIEVER.
 I have heard this paranoid fantasy before however,  what did I miss?
 Fred

 On Tuesday, Jul 8, 2003, at 13:08 US/Eastern, Greg and April wrote:

  The GPS means nothing if the vehicle spends much of it's time in
  unmapped
  territory, or off road.  Because then you have miles logged, but, not
  spent
  on public streets were the funds would go.  Same problem applies to
  odometer
  readings.   Don't get me wrong I think that people should be charges
  for
  their fair share of street use, but, at the same time, they shouldn't
  be
  charged for what they don't use ether.
 
  Don't forget how much Big Brother would love to GPS every last person,
  just
  in case they *might* be a criminal, or become one.
 
  Greg H.
 
  - Original Message -
  From: csakima [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 21:39
  Subject: [biofuel] Tracking a car's mileage Was: The Hydrogen hype,
  the
  scam artists at work. and more idea's
 
 
  Actually, I was just thinking, you could have every car required to be
  manufactured with a on-board, built in GPS.   Then have that GPS
  tracked
  from X month  to the same registration month the next year.
  Then
  have that file cross-referenced with the car's registration/ownership
  files.
 
  THERE ... car registration files ... with how many miles it had
  traveled
  tacked on the bottom.   Along with where the car went to ... which
  route
  it
  took ... etc.
 
  No odometer reading necessary.
 
  Curtis
 
 
 
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   Scintilate scintilate globule vivific
   Oft have I pondered thy nature specific
   High above the ether capacious
   Like a mineral carbonaceous.
   Scintilate scintilate globule vivific
   Oft have I pondered thy nature specific


 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Re: [biofuel] Tracking a car's mileage Was: The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work. and more idea's

[Greg and April]

They can only currently track by video cam, not to many except with in major
cities, and then mostly near intersections. Even now they are trying to
track cell phones, but even that is proving some what problematic, and is
only accurate to with in a 150 yards or so.

No, we still have a few more years left.  Even the Supreme Court has ruled
that we have privacy even in public places.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Robert Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 13:17
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Tracking a car's mileage Was: The Hydrogen hype, the
scam artists at work. and more idea's


 Hey !!, have you been asleep for the last 10 or so years



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Re: [biofuel] MSR Whisperlite mini stovesRe: Petromax Lantern

[Greg and April]

I love my little whisperlite.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: girl_mark_fire [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 14:18
Subject: [biofuel] MSR Whisperlite mini stovesRe: Petromax Lantern


the update to this is that isooropyl works OK for starting up the 
whisperlite (It will also start using biodiesel, just much smokier 
and slower before the fuel heats up and starts to 'jet').

for those who don't know, Whisperlites are a backpacker stove and the 
multifuel (XGK or International models) version works as follows: 
there is a little pressurising pump (plastic, but unaffected by 
biodiesel) which screws into a metal fuel bottle. You pressurise the 
fuel, which on it's way to the burner, passes through a loop of steel 
line that passes through the burner flame. Below the burner is a pad 
which you first soak in fuel and set on fire to preheat the steep 
fuel line(I've been using rubbing alcohol, normally you'd pour your 
gas or diesel or whatever other volatile fuel, onto the pad). The 
fuel is then heated enough that it will 'jet' out of the burner 
orifices (I think that's the accurate description) just like a more 
volatile white gasoline. 

anyway these are pretty common here among backpackers who can afford 
them (they're expensive by my standards) and I've found that at 
several street fair demonstrations of fuel making, I've been able to 
give away several of the liter batches that we made, to people who 
were going to use them in an XGK. Which was kind of cool- it makes a 
liter batch process produce a 'useful' amount of fuel! Before 
releasing them to the unsuspecting public, I label the 
jars 'poisonous- still contains methanol' just to make sure that the 
person's friends wouldn't pick the jar up to smell it or anything. I 
intend one of these days to write up some washing instructions (and 
Tailgate Titration instructions for making simple liter batches) on 
one sheet of paper, to give away with the samples.

mark



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Re: [biofuel] MSR Whisperlite mini stovesRe: Petromax Lantern

[Greg and April]

I have the International 600, and I haven't used BioDiesel in it yet, I
still have gas in the one bottle, and just can't  pour it out or burn it up
for no other reason than to get rid of it in order to try BioDiesel in it.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: girl_mark_fire [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 23:04
Subject: [biofuel] MSR Whisperlite mini stovesRe: Petromax Lantern


 Which model do you have, and have you used it with biodiesel
 (assuming it;s the multifuel one)?
 mark




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Re: [biofuel] (fwd) Fuel cells may power cell phones, laptops

[Greg and April]

Part of it, I think, is that Methanol has a slightly higher Hydrogen density
than Ethanol.  This would could to a higher efficiency, for the amount of
fuel used.  Let me think CH30H ( Methanol ) 4 out of 6 atoms ( 2/3rds ) are
Hydrogen and C2H5OH ( Ethanol ) 6 out of 9 (also 2/3rds ) are Hydrogen so
that may not be it.

Let's look at the end products  2CH3OH + AIR  --- 2CO2 + 4H2O + Energy
or... 2C2H5OH + Air --- 4CO2 + 6H2O + Energy  ( the biggest problem is I
don't have the math to figure out the energy produced, because in part it
depends on the efficiency of the fuel cell ), So for Methanol to produce the
same amount of CO2 that Ethanol produces, you would have to use double the
amount, or 4 more Hydrogen atoms which in turn ( with all other things being
equal ) has the potential of producing more energy for a given amount of
CO2.

If someone finds a mistake in my math please let me know.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:44
Subject: [biofuel] (fwd) Fuel cells may power cell phones, laptops


In this case: never mind the talk about Hydrogen.  What is being proposed
here
is methanol power.  Notice how there's no talk of ethanol or some other
chemical
more widely available.  Perhaps this is because they're not as often
manufactured by the Petroleum Industry.





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Re: [biofuel] Re: If youre pro war, read this!!!!!

[Greg and April]

???

Did I miss something in history class?  It was my understanding that the
South declared war in a non-peaceful manner, when they fired on Ft. Sumter.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: mtushmoo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 08:32
Subject: [biofuel] Re: If youre pro war, read this!


 Abe Lincoln was the first to get away with a wholesale violation of the
constitution by not letting the south secede peacefully.



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Re: [biofuel] Solar Power Cure for Natural Gas Shortage with winners too

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: Robert Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
biofuel@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 16:58
Subject: [biofuel] Solar Power Cure for Natural Gas Shortage with winners
too




 The ocean people are going to cry foul if we take it from the ocean water
and mess up the marine life with colder than normal water as we took the
heat out of it to vaporize the LNG. The air people are going to cry foul if
we take it from burning a small portion of the fuel because of air
pollution. If we simply take the heat out of the air, we will create fog
because of the warm water in the ocean.

This would not actually be a bad idea, considering that the area in question
is low on water most of the time.  If done in a controlled manor, it could
provide a lot of distilled water.  In fact it might be the safest way to do
it, the technology is already in use for O2 systems at hospitals, which in
many cases is done right to air.

In most cases tho, to deliver the NG in the volume needed for use in
pipelines, you need to use fuel fired vaporizers, which are heated, to keep
up with the effects of the cooling of vaporizing a lot of LNG at one time.

 If we release it to the pipeline below 32 degrees, we will create a
permafrost along the entire pipeline; more eco system problems.

It depends on the insulating properties of the pipeline and the soil.


 So as we go, we vaporize the liquid using solar panels.

You would need a transfer medium, and allot of panels, it would be to
dangerous to run the LNG directly through the panels, not to mention that
there would be day / night issues involved.

But before we send it into the pipeline, what would happen if we run this
expanded high pressure gas through a turbine and make electricity with it
and then dump the vapor into the pipeline? We have used the heat to vaporize
the liquid, made electricity with the excess heat and sent 100% of the gas
down the pipeline and while we were at it, we created no environmental
pollution at the unloading site.

This would be very dangerous!  You do not want to heat the NG any higher
than necessary to vaporize it.  High temperature, high pressure CNG, has
very good potential to explode if it develops a leak.  The problem is you
are dealing with pressures averaging about 150 psi. in a NG pipeline, and to
extract any useful work, out of it you would need pressures greater than
this, and that causes allot of problems with seals and gaskets that would be
needed in an operation like this.

When I was working at a Propane / Air shaving station on a NG pipeline, they
replaced an average of 5+ gaskets / seals a year.  And to do this, they had
to shut down the entire facility each summer ( easy to do since it was only
needed in winter ), shut off all valves on the tanks, burn off the liquid or
gas that was left under pressure in the pipes, then flush the entire system
with Nitrogen, to clean out any propane that remained, and then and only
then could they replace the gasket / seals.  You would need more gaskets /
seals and they would have the added problem of having them do the proper job
with moving parts involved, and at higher temps, and pressures.

Could you see them shutting down a facility that would probably be working
24/7 all year long, to replace the various gaskets and seals that would ware
out every year?


 Now, at this point, our neighbors to the North and the South of us want to
make money selling us gas but thought they could hold us hostage until they
found out we could function anyway, will probably ease their restrictions
for the money they will get from selling us their gas.

 Since that problem is now at bay, we simply substitute the nat gas liquid
with a refrigerant and let the system continue to make us electricity using
solar energy but we remain available to unload LNG if needed.


The problem is when you compare LNG and refrigerant, you really are talking
apples and oranges, with different points of vaporizing and chemical
characteristics.  Some refrigerants do not work well with the materials that
work the best for NG and vise versa.  You also have compression and
expansion differences.  In the end, I suspect that it would be more cost
effective, to have a separate facility that used the same solar power
source.

Greg H.


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