Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Hi; Good points; hopefully you are right. Alex --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello; Good point about third world... I can see the time when bio diesel will be marketed as a 'super' fuel and will priced accordingly--simple marketing dynamics. The only ones who will be able to afford it will be the very poor through aid programs or the well-to-do. I base this on my belief that raw fuel stocks such as WVO will become commodities-especially by the bigger chains McDonald'scDonalds-that can improve the profitability of restaurants. Oil is big business and when its demise comes bio diesel will be big business. My advise to the small producers is enjoy the present and be prepared to be eaten by the sharks( via buy outs or other less pleasant means). Best Regards Alex Landels Lots been written here about the potential of local-niche production and much besides. There are many local-type scenarios where the big guys won't be able to compete, not just on a price basis, there are often other factors at work. Growth in at least some of these areas is already quite rapid. On-farm production, especially from integrated farms rather than monocroppers, is another such case, also growing rapidly. Costs can be essentially zero, and direct costs aside, on-farm economics will tend to keep outside stuff outside, no benefit. It doesn't just depend on WVO availability, though that's a few billion gallons a year in the US. In most industrialized countries collection levels are about 10%. It's unlikely to be optimized, no matter how valuable it gets or how much the Big Guys might be after it, unless collection starts at the local level, at point of production. This applies to virtually all waste recycling. And it leaves plenty of scope for small-scale operators and DIYers who're also working at that level. Take a closer look at some of the things in Mark's post about local-level initiatives. Much also been written about Big Biodiesel, and people expecting to be brushed aside when the time comes. There could already be too much local stuff going on for that to happen quite so easily. If the sharks come too close they could get torn to pieces by piranhas. For a comparison, local farmers' markets and CSAs are growing apace, and there's absolutely nothing that big agribiz interests can do about it, much as I'm sure they'd like to. The USDA organic standards a few posts have mentioned were such an attempt, but very many real organic farms have simply opted out and continue dealing with their local markets without any problems. This is also capitalism at work, you know - more so than big, centralized corporatism is, and it's more American anyway. Best Keith __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Keith mentioned something that I think needs to be emphisized is that the collection rates for WVO is rather low, and within that low collection percentage only a certain amount is actually recycled into something valuable. Thus although the big FF chains might do a BD venture themselves (more as a greenwash campaingn) or work with some large BD processors (for a commodity fee), on the whole there is a zillion small hole-in-the-wall resturantes that will work with a homebrewer/small producer for free removal of the WVO. I personally know of many. ;-) Also, remember that the focus for the large processor is time == money, so that the faster they can process and get a vialable product without having to jump through too many hoops, that is the dirction they will go. Paying for SVO for them makes the process go smoother without all the titration hassle, and with a consistant feedstock it also insures a consistant fuel. And consistancy is a good marketing tool (With OUR fuel you won't have to worry about damage to your engine ) Both of those areas are time and money issues. For the homebrewer time/money issue are a moot point as it is more a hobbie thing. And for the small producer Keith mentioned that local collection and production will beat out long distance distrubution in price, even if the economics of scale are better for the large producer. James Slayden On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Keith Addison wrote: Hello; Good point about third world... I can see the time when bio diesel will be marketed as a 'super' fuel and will priced accordingly--simple marketing dynamics. The only ones who will be able to afford it will be the very poor through aid programs or the well-to-do. I base this on my belief that raw fuel stocks such as WVO will become commodities-especially by the bigger chains McDonald'scDonalds-that can improve the profitability of restaurants. Oil is big business and when its demise comes bio diesel will be big business. My advise to the small producers is enjoy the present and be prepared to be eaten by the sharks( via buy outs or other less pleasant means). Best Regards Alex Landels Lots been written here about the potential of local-niche production and much besides. There are many local-type scenarios where the big guys won't be able to compete, not just on a price basis, there are often other factors at work. Growth in at least some of these areas is already quite rapid. On-farm production, especially from integrated farms rather than monocroppers, is another such case, also growing rapidly. Costs can be essentially zero, and direct costs aside, on-farm economics will tend to keep outside stuff outside, no benefit. It doesn't just depend on WVO availability, though that's a few billion gallons a year in the US. In most industrialized countries collection levels are about 10%. It's unlikely to be optimized, no matter how valuable it gets or how much the Big Guys might be after it, unless collection starts at the local level, at point of production. This applies to virtually all waste recycling. And it leaves plenty of scope for small-scale operators and DIYers who're also working at that level. Take a closer look at some of the things in Mark's post about local-level initiatives. Much also been written about Big Biodiesel, and people expecting to be brushed aside when the time comes. There could already be too much local stuff going on for that to happen quite so easily. If the sharks come too close they could get torn to pieces by piranhas. For a comparison, local farmers' markets and CSAs are growing apace, and there's absolutely nothing that big agribiz interests can do about it, much as I'm sure they'd like to. The USDA organic standards a few posts have mentioned were such an attempt, but very many real organic farms have simply opted out and continue dealing with their local markets without any problems. This is also capitalism at work, you know - more so than big, centralized corporatism is, and it's more American anyway. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Hi Mark Jolly good rant, thankyou! :-) Yes, yes, and also yes - very good points you make. I'm grateful for the useful distinction between homebrewers and small producers. We're perhaps a bit too used to thinking of them as the same people, as they used to be mostly I guess, and many still are. I've noticed some of the differences you point to, not the way homebrewers generally behave. I've also been rather startled at some of the ambitious plans by people with no experience at all. Often they make the right sort of noises, but it's fairly clear what attracts them: they'll be small producers for exactly as long as it takes them to swell into big producers. And don't get in the way. There have been signs of that same fever affecting some of the homebrewer crowd too. I like Todd's type of thinking: growth, sure, but not in order to become a mega-anything. Growth means you can set up another local production somewhere else - spawn rather than swell. What makes the difference is probably empowerment, as you say, and decentralized alternatives. We've also seen a need to re-examine our priorities, and indeed we no longer see our role as promoting biofuels use in general, wherever, however and by whomsoever, as in the past. We come back to where we started, which is that we're primarily a 3rd World project, an appropriate technology project. The technology development we've talked of certainly benefits what you can do with biofuels in a 3rd World rural community, as opposed to say three years ago, or in any rural community, or farm, or neighbourhood or back-yard - we don't see appropriate technology as something for only the 3rd World. So that's where we're focusing our biofuels efforts, on community self-reliance, and community and individual empowerment, whether in 3rd World communities or in New York or Osaka. Same as with our other projects. That doesn't mean we're necessarily against corporations and the big, centralized approach, not at all, we're happy to work with them - but not FOR them, and where they work against community self-reliance and empowerment, as they do, whether by design or neglect, we'll work to counter that. Graham's very strange idea that biofuelers who don't support World Energy, the NBB and Big Soy are anti-biofuels really made me laugh. Bit of a wry laugh though, kind of sad really. I do hope Graham is following all these discussions and taking it all aboard. If not, what a waste. On his part, that is, not a waste at all otherwise, excellent discussion, IMO. Regards Keith Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be long. my comments interspersed between two different writers' posts: thor: And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need to organize to present a coherent voice. Its unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with hundreds of independent producers individually. Mark: One thing I've been learning lately is that the biodiesel movement is diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself people to both teach about homebrew, and do general education about emissions and benefits of biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people doing this work of publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I don't even bother to talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do my classes for homebrewers, unless I'm asked. Now, would someone please remind me why I should as a homebrewer have to deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my life as a homebrewer, I certainly don't need them. They certainly are trying to get our (and the general public's) support, through their new registry of biodiesel organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel Boosters registry. What's in it for us, after I've been reading things about how bad homebrew is on their website since 1998 or whenever it was? But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team? People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having made a liter of homebrew first. It's important to realize that we are not the same, there's not this big industry vs homebrewersandsmallproducers thing, we have three separate agendas that may or may not overlap. case in point: I've met a good number of people since the relaxing of government regs here, who have a huge glimmer in their eyes and are seeing big bucks in the potential of an easy-to-enter energy market (relatively speaking, it is easy to make biodiesel, not anywhere as easy or low investment to make other forms of energy to sell.) I think a bunch of the would-be small producers I've met are good people, but I see a major distinction between them and homebrewers, and am starting to refine my mission, and recognize where my allegiances lie- with the svo'ers and the homebrewers, who are not the same as small producers. And I am not
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Hi; I agree with the emphasis on third world empowerment. As things stand now small bio diesel producers can make some headway (ie money) due to a surplus of raw fuel stocks ie. WVO. Once bio diesel becomes competitive and/or necessary, free or inexpensive fuel stocks will vanish. The owners of raw fuel stock will demand money for its removable--capitalism will maintain its logic. When free fuel stocks vanish it will be interesting to see if bio diesel maintain its inexpensive nature or will be marketed as a super fuel and charged out at a premium--my money is on the later. Best regards... Alex landels --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mark Jolly good rant, thankyou! :-) Yes, yes, and also yes - very good points you make. I'm grateful for the useful distinction between homebrewers and small producers. We're perhaps a bit too used to thinking of them as the same people, as they used to be mostly I guess, and many still are. I've noticed some of the differences you point to, not the way homebrewers generally behave. I've also been rather startled at some of the ambitious plans by people with no experience at all. Often they make the right sort of noises, but it's fairly clear what attracts them: they'll be small producers for exactly as long as it takes them to swell into big producers. And don't get in the way. There have been signs of that same fever affecting some of the homebrewer crowd too. I like Todd's type of thinking: growth, sure, but not in order to become a mega-anything. Growth means you can set up another local production somewhere else - spawn rather than swell. What makes the difference is probably empowerment, as you say, and decentralized alternatives. We've also seen a need to re-examine our priorities, and indeed we no longer see our role as promoting biofuels use in general, wherever, however and by whomsoever, as in the past. We come back to where we started, which is that we're primarily a 3rd World project, an appropriate technology project. The technology development we've talked of certainly benefits what you can do with biofuels in a 3rd World rural community, as opposed to say three years ago, or in any rural community, or farm, or neighbourhood or back-yard - we don't see appropriate technology as something for only the 3rd World. So that's where we're focusing our biofuels efforts, on community self-reliance, and community and individual empowerment, whether in 3rd World communities or in New York or Osaka. Same as with our other projects. That doesn't mean we're necessarily against corporations and the big, centralized approach, not at all, we're happy to work with them - but not FOR them, and where they work against community self-reliance and empowerment, as they do, whether by design or neglect, we'll work to counter that. Graham's very strange idea that biofuelers who don't support World Energy, the NBB and Big Soy are anti-biofuels really made me laugh. Bit of a wry laugh though, kind of sad really. I do hope Graham is following all these discussions and taking it all aboard. If not, what a waste. On his part, that is, not a waste at all otherwise, excellent discussion, IMO. Regards Keith Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be long. my comments interspersed between two different writers' posts: thor: And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need to organize to present a coherent voice. Itís unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with hundreds of independent producers individually. Mark: One thing I've been learning lately is that the biodiesel movement is diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself people to both teach about homebrew, and do general education about emissions and benefits of biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people doing this work of publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I don't even bother to talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do my classes for homebrewers, unless I'm asked. Now, would someone please remind me why I should as a homebrewer have to deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my life as a homebrewer, I certainly don't need them. They certainly are trying to get our (and the general public's) support, through their new registry of biodiesel organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel Boosters registry. What's in it for us, after I've been reading things about how bad homebrew is on their website since 1998 or whenever it was? But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team? People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having made a liter of homebrew first. It's important to
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Hello; Good point about third world... I can see the time when bio diesel will be marketed as a 'super' fuel and will priced accordingly--simple marketing dynamics. The only ones who will be able to afford it will be the very poor through aid programs or the well-to-do. I base this on my belief that raw fuel stocks such as WVO will become commodities-especially by the bigger chains McDonald'scDonalds-that can improve the profitability of restaurants. Oil is big business and when its demise comes bio diesel will be big business. My advise to the small producers is enjoy the present and be prepared to be eaten by the sharks( via buy outs or other less pleasant means). Best Regards Alex Landels --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mark Jolly good rant, thankyou! :-) Yes, yes, and also yes - very good points you make. I'm grateful for the useful distinction between homebrewers and small producers. We're perhaps a bit too used to thinking of them as the same people, as they used to be mostly I guess, and many still are. I've noticed some of the differences you point to, not the way homebrewers generally behave. I've also been rather startled at some of the ambitious plans by people with no experience at all. Often they make the right sort of noises, but it's fairly clear what attracts them: they'll be small producers for exactly as long as it takes them to swell into big producers. And don't get in the way. There have been signs of that same fever affecting some of the homebrewer crowd too. I like Todd's type of thinking: growth, sure, but not in order to become a mega-anything. Growth means you can set up another local production somewhere else - spawn rather than swell. What makes the difference is probably empowerment, as you say, and decentralized alternatives. We've also seen a need to re-examine our priorities, and indeed we no longer see our role as promoting biofuels use in general, wherever, however and by whomsoever, as in the past. We come back to where we started, which is that we're primarily a 3rd World project, an appropriate technology project. The technology development we've talked of certainly benefits what you can do with biofuels in a 3rd World rural community, as opposed to say three years ago, or in any rural community, or farm, or neighbourhood or back-yard - we don't see appropriate technology as something for only the 3rd World. So that's where we're focusing our biofuels efforts, on community self-reliance, and community and individual empowerment, whether in 3rd World communities or in New York or Osaka. Same as with our other projects. That doesn't mean we're necessarily against corporations and the big, centralized approach, not at all, we're happy to work with them - but not FOR them, and where they work against community self-reliance and empowerment, as they do, whether by design or neglect, we'll work to counter that. Graham's very strange idea that biofuelers who don't support World Energy, the NBB and Big Soy are anti-biofuels really made me laugh. Bit of a wry laugh though, kind of sad really. I do hope Graham is following all these discussions and taking it all aboard. If not, what a waste. On his part, that is, not a waste at all otherwise, excellent discussion, IMO. Regards Keith Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be long. my comments interspersed between two different writers' posts: thor: And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need to organize to present a coherent voice. Itís unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with hundreds of independent producers individually. Mark: One thing I've been learning lately is that the biodiesel movement is diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself people to both teach about homebrew, and do general education about emissions and benefits of biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people doing this work of publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I don't even bother to talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do my classes for homebrewers, unless I'm asked. Now, would someone please remind me why I should as a homebrewer have to deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my life as a homebrewer, I certainly don't need them. They certainly are trying to get our (and the general public's) support, through their new registry of biodiesel organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel Boosters registry. What's in it for us, after I've been reading things about how bad homebrew is on their website since 1998 or whenever it was? But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team? People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks are all excited about starting small
[biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Mark, Well, my post certain punched a lot of your buttons. I appreciate your taking the time to reply so passionately. As should be obvious by now, I am not familiar with the homebrewing community beyond the few individuals I know regionally who make BD and my own as yet unrealized pretensions towards making my own fuel for a while now. I agree with you that homebrewers, small producers, and large producers have different agendas and (possibly) overlapping interests. I am sure you read my posts carefully Mark, so you know that I never suggested homebrewers give anything up to a representative, or a representative organization. In fact, I said specifically that most homebrewers would probably not be interested in belonging to a biodiesel association, and that no such association could ever replace local ties. I also NEVER said anything about, as you put it, unagreed-to representatives, etc!), so please, no matter how agitated you feel, try to refrain from setting up straw men. My focus is really more on independent producers who are making a (small) business of biodiesel. But, my point is that everyone, homebrewers included, are affected by regulations, taxes, and so on, and that giving a voice to these concerns that would be heard by those who set regulations and taxes might be a good idea. You dont have to sell me on the merits of decentralized networks, neighborhood-scale projects, and empowered community members. I work with those every day. But you may need to sell some individuals in power on those concepts if you are worried about them messing things up. Since you express great concern over government regulation of homebrewers, and rightly so, how do you plan to let policy-makers know that you want to be left the f*#k alone? I would suggest that (unfortunately) posts to this forum are not going to do it. Mark, you wrote, and I know for a fact that many of the homebrewers don't have the time, nor enough in common as individuals, to waste time forming lobbying organizations or whatnot. I certainly cant gainsay that. But I wonder if you have enough in common as homebrewers to see to your collective interest as homebrewers (i.e. the right to continue homebrewing uninfringed by pesky laws and regulations. The possible organization and regulation you are agonizing about is not a new phemonenon; it happened to people who built and flew the early airplanes; to those in the nascent radio broadcasting industry; to the original organic farmers. Adoption of technology goes through phases, and if something becomes more lucrative as a business, more people will enter and want (or get without wanting) regulation, standards, etc. Personally, I would be happy to see homebrewers go on doing their thing, unaffected by these changes. Sadly, I doubt that is likely. The anecdotes you have related bolster that view. WRT certification, although I didnt say so specifically, I was actually thinking about third-party, private-sector (nonprofit) certification, not a government program. When I mentioned organic certification I was thinking of Oregon Tilth, CCOF, etc., not USDA organic standards. What happened to organics was lamentable, but I think it had less to do with poor government than it did with the fact that the proposed regs were developed at a time when agribusiness (General Mills, ADM, Birdseye) was realizing the huge growth potential in organic foods and was jumping into the market with both feet. The standards proposed in 98 reflected their interests (and those of corporate farms), more than it did the pioneers of organics. What is interesting was the reaction. USDA received more public comments (over a half a million IIRC), way more than any federal agency had ever received on any proposed standards. How did this happen? It happened because these voices of the public were focused through the efforts of, yup, organizationsfood cooperatives, environmental organizations, local farm and agriculture organizations. They got the word out and got it out well. Now, in part, this reflected the effectiveness of diffused networks of activists and interested consumers. But it also reflected a LOT of hard work by formal organizations. Back to certification. I come from a background studying certification and labeling, mostly of forest products and food. I dont know if certification and labeling would work for biodiesel, whether or not it would be a good idea, what the effect on consumer behavior would be. I threw it out as a possibility. The thing is, I dont think anyone else knows either, including you and Keith. No one has done (to my knowledge, and Id love to be wrong on this cause I like hard data) market research on how consumers make choices on alternative fuels for their automobiles, what influencing their decision-making, how risk-averse they are, and so on. I originally stated that I thought they are risk-averse and Keith asserted the opposite. I hope hes
[biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Hello; Good point about third world... I can see the time when bio diesel will be marketed as a 'super' fuel and will priced accordingly--simple marketing dynamics. The only ones who will be able to afford it will be the very poor through aid programs or the well-to-do. I base this on my belief that raw fuel stocks such as WVO will become commodities-especially by the bigger chains McDonald'scDonalds-that can improve the profitability of restaurants. Oil is big business and when its demise comes bio diesel will be big business. My advise to the small producers is enjoy the present and be prepared to be eaten by the sharks( via buy outs or other less pleasant means). Best Regards Alex Landels Lots been written here about the potential of local-niche production and much besides. There are many local-type scenarios where the big guys won't be able to compete, not just on a price basis, there are often other factors at work. Growth in at least some of these areas is already quite rapid. On-farm production, especially from integrated farms rather than monocroppers, is another such case, also growing rapidly. Costs can be essentially zero, and direct costs aside, on-farm economics will tend to keep outside stuff outside, no benefit. It doesn't just depend on WVO availability, though that's a few billion gallons a year in the US. In most industrialized countries collection levels are about 10%. It's unlikely to be optimized, no matter how valuable it gets or how much the Big Guys might be after it, unless collection starts at the local level, at point of production. This applies to virtually all waste recycling. And it leaves plenty of scope for small-scale operators and DIYers who're also working at that level. Take a closer look at some of the things in Mark's post about local-level initiatives. Much also been written about Big Biodiesel, and people expecting to be brushed aside when the time comes. There could already be too much local stuff going on for that to happen quite so easily. If the sharks come too close they could get torn to pieces by piranhas. For a comparison, local farmers' markets and CSAs are growing apace, and there's absolutely nothing that big agribiz interests can do about it, much as I'm sure they'd like to. The USDA organic standards a few posts have mentioned were such an attempt, but very many real organic farms have simply opted out and continue dealing with their local markets without any problems. This is also capitalism at work, you know - more so than big, centralized corporatism is, and it's more American anyway. Best Keith Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
