Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
The 5 to 7 is probably per 24 hour period KirkMichael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...see also http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/redbook/sum2/state.html MikeWilliam Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Hakan Joe,Hakan, where do you find 5-7 kwm^-2 for solar incoming energy? That seems a bit high - Joe's figure seems closer.The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives a solar constant of 1.34kwm^-2, which for N. Lat. 40deg corrects to a ground surface solar energy input of about 0.7kwm^-2, if one averages for the earth's inclination at summer and winter solstices. Of course a tracking collector would collect the entire 1.34kwm^-2 on a clear cloudless day regardless of one's latitude, but here we're talking about photons heating grains of sand so the ground surface figure is the correct one.I'm with you on the hang glider advice :-).Joe, I'm not enough of an atmospheric expert to answer whether your last suggestion would improve or worsen things in earth's weather patterns. The Principle of Unintended Effects would make me hesitant to go that route, though.I would love to use Kim's sig of "Bright Blessings", but she's earned that one, so I'll just say Cheers to all,Bob (the one in West Linn, OR)- Original Message - nFrom: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <BIOFUEL@SUSTAINABLELISTS.ORG>Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 4:03 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind Joe, Depends on where you are. Incoming yearly average in northern US is 5-6 kW/m2. I would not fly any hang glider in 100 feet per minute, because you will end up at top of a thunderstorm and come back down as an ice block. It has happened more than once by happy people who did not study hang gliding properly. Do not do it Global warming is caused by higher absorption of the Earth and Air pollution that stops the reflection to escape. By capturing energy, to transform and use it in other ways, maybe the Global warming would be reduced, but it must be in a massive scale. I do not think solar capture have any weather effects even on very large scale. Our changes to the Earth surface and air, have many times larger effect. Hakan At 19:30 31/08/2005, you wrote: As a further note to the discussion of high efficiency solar arrays a question occured to me. The average incoming radiation from the sun is something like 1Kw /sq.mThis is a substantial amount of energy and much of it goes intoheating up a shallow layer of the surface and much gets re-radiatedback to the air as longwave radiation or heat not just during theday but at night as well. Anyone who doubts the amount of solarenergy re-radiated to the atmosphere needs only to consider atowering cumulonimbus cloud or better yet to get a real up close andpersonal gut feel for that energy take up the sport of hang glidingand experience what it is like being yanked skyward at over 1000feet per minute by convective air currents generated by this solar energy. Supposing that some dirt cheap mass production technique allows us to produce rolls and rolls of film with very high efficiency organic solar cells one day. This technology could solve one of our needs in terms of energy generation and would allow unprecedented growth resulting in an ever increasing percentage of the earth's surface being covered up by solar arrays. Assume for the moment that these arrays are 90%efficient. Now granted that the energy collected in this way would be used in processes that have their own efficiency numbers and some energy would always be lost as waste heat but since we are always striving towards higher efficiencies in all processes, assume as well that these energy consuming processes are quite efficient and that therefore only a small amount of this energy is released back into the environment as waste heat. What effect could this have on the weather?Joedes wrote:Garth Kim Travis wrote:Greetings,I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine thatcan also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that isused primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired.And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the ptoof the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots ofoverlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meatin the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a1/4 of a cow in there at a time.Bright Blessings,KimA system I've been working on, and redesigning throughout the years isgoing more toward solar heat. A solar concentrator, (reads: recycled10' diameter satellite dish covered with little squares of mirrorsalvaged from the glass shop's dumpster) and a Stirling engine areintegral, the engine integrating the conversion from solar heat toelectricity, but then the question arose, "do I really want to bedependent on a system that stores its power in batteries?" So thesystem has shifted to collecting heat, and storing that. Then, drawfr
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Greetings Bob, The world can use many more Bright Blessings than I can wish for it. I have no copyright, honest. Be warned however, that if you use it, people will ask/assume you are a pagan. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:46 PM 8/31/2005, you wrote: Hi Hakan Joe, I would love to use Kim's sig of Bright Blessings, but she's earned that one, so I'll just say Cheers to all, Bob (the one in West Linn, OR) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Kirk, Yes, it is kWh per day. I maybe misunderstood the number given, because max. kW per m2 and second is quite irrelevant for application of solar panels, other than for capacity of the panel itself. Hakan At 08:20 01/09/2005, you wrote: The 5 to 7 is probably per 24 hour period Kirk Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...see also http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/redbook/sum2/state.htmlhttp://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/redbook/sum2/state.html Mike William Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Hakan Joe, Hakan, where do you find 5-7 kwm^-2 for solar incoming energy? That seems a bit high - Joe's figure seems closer. The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives a solar constant of 1.34kwm^-2, which for N. Lat. 40deg corrects to a ground surface solar energy input of about 0.7kwm^-2, if one averages for the earth's inclination at summer and winter solstices. Of course a tracking collector would collect the entire 1.34kwm^-2 on a clear cloudless day regardless of one's latitude, but here we're talking about photons heating grains of sand so the ground surface figure is the correct one. I'm with you on the hang glider advice :-). Joe, I'm not enough of an atmospheric expert to answer whether your last suggestion would improve or worsen things in earth's weather patterns. The Principle of Uninte! nded Effects would make me hesitant to go that route, though. I would love to use Kim's sig of Bright Blessings, but she's earned that one, so I'll just say Cheers to all, Bob (the one in West Linn, OR) - Original Message - nFrom: Hakan Falk To: Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind Joe, Depends on where you are. Incoming yearly average in northern US is 5-6 kW/m2. I would not fly any hang glider in 100 feet per minute, because you will end up at top of a thunderstorm and come back down as an ice block. It has happened more than once by happy people who did not study hang gliding properly. Do not do it Global warming is caused by higher absorption of the Earth and Air pollution that stops the reflection to ! escape. By capturing energy, to transform and use it in other ways, maybe the Global warming would be reduced, but it must be in a massive scale. I do not think solar capture have any weather effects even on very large scale. Our changes to the Earth surface and air, have many times larger effect. Hakan At 19:30 31/08/2005, you wrote: As a further note to the discussion of high efficiency solar arrays a question occured to me. The average incoming radiation from the sun is something like 1Kw /sq.m This is a substantial amount of energy and much of it goes into heating up a shallow layer of the surface and much gets re-radiated back to the air as longwave radiation or heat not just during the day but at night as well. Anyone who doubts the amount of solar energy re-radiated to the atmosphere needs only to consider a tow! ering cumulonimbus cloud or better yet to get a real up close and personal gut feel for that energy take up the sport of hang gliding and experience what it is like being yanked skyward at over 1000 feet per minute by convective air currents generated by this solar energy. Supposing that some dirt cheap mass production technique allows us to produce rolls and rolls of film with very high efficiency organic solar cells one day. This technology could solve one of our needs in terms of energy generation and would allow unprecedented growth resulting in an ever increasing percentage of the earth's surface being covered up by solar arrays. Assume for the moment that these arrays are 90%efficient. Now granted that the energy collected in this way would be used in processes that have their own efficiency numbers and some energy would always be ! gt; lost as waste heat but since we are always striving towards higher efficiencies in all processes, assume as well that these energy consuming processes are quite efficient and that therefore only a small amount of this energy is released back into the environment as waste heat. What effect could this have on the weather? Joe des wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine that can also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that is used primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired. And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the pto of the trac! tor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots of overlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meat in the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a 1/4 of a cow in there at a time. Bright Blessings, Kim A system I've been working on, and redesigning throughout the years is going more toward solar heat. A solar concentrator, (reads: recycled 10
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Hey Hakan; Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Depends on where you are. Incoming yearly average in northern US is 5-6 kW/m2. Are you sure?? I would not fly any hang glider in 100 feet per minute, because you will end up at top of a thunderstorm and come back down as an ice block. It has happened more than once by happy people who did not study hang gliding properly. Do not do it Sure I do it every week. I don't often get to climb at over 1000 fpm but 500-1000 is common. And yes I try not to get sucked into clouds. It's not legal for one thing. My point was a lot of heat energy goes back into the atmosphere. There is a staggering amount of energy in the atmoshpere, wind and clouds. Just as greenhouse gasses can affect the weather so can anything which blocks incomming radiation like pyroclastic ejecta did during the ice ages after yosemite blew up back in the old days. Deploying solar arrays on a massive scale (yes really massive) would in a way be like drawing the curtains over the earth. If the energy was not released back to the environment in the usual way through loss and waste heat (for example if it was sequestered in chemical bonds) then it could really have an effect. This is pie in the sky talk obviously but it is an interesting question. Joe Global warming is caused by higher absorption of the Earth and Air pollution that stops the reflection to escape. By capturing energy, to transform and use it in other ways, maybe the Global warming would be reduced, but it must be in a massive scale. I do not think solar capture have any weather effects even on very large scale. Our changes to the Earth surface and air, have many times larger effect. Hakan At 19:30 31/08/2005, you wrote: As a further note to the discussion of high efficiency solar arrays a question occured to me. The average incoming radiation from the sun is something like 1Kw /sq.m This is a substantial amount of energy and much of it goes into heating up a shallow layer of the surface and much gets re-radiated back to the air as longwave radiation or heat not just during the day but at night as well. Anyone who doubts the amount of solar energy re-radiated to the atmosphere needs only to consider a towering cumulonimbus cloud or better yet to get a real up close and personal gut feel for that energy take up the sport of hang gliding and experience what it is like being yanked skyward at over 1000 feet per minute by convective air currents generated by this solar energy. Supposing that some dirt cheap mass production technique allows us to produce rolls and rolls of film with very high efficiency organic solar cells one day. This technology could solve one of our needs in terms of energy generation and would allow unprecedented growth resulting in an ever increasing percentage of the earth's surface being covered up by solar arrays. Assume for the moment that these arrays are 90%efficient. Now granted that the energy collected in this way would be used in processes that have their own efficiency numbers and some energy would always be lost as waste heat but since we are always striving towards higher efficiencies in all processes, assume as well that these energy consuming processes are quite efficient and that therefore only a small amount of this energy is released back into the environment as waste heat. What effect could this have on the weather? Joe des wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine that can also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that is used primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired. And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the pto of the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots of overlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meat in the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a 1/4 of a cow in there at a time.grin Bright Blessings, Kim A system I've been working on, and redesigning throughout the years is going more toward solar heat. A solar concentrator, (reads: recycled 10' diameter satellite dish covered with little squares of mirror salvaged from the glass shop's dumpster) and a Stirling engine are integral, the engine integrating the conversion from solar heat to electricity, but then the question arose, "do I really want to be dependent on a system that stores its power in batteries?" So the system has shifted to collecting heat, and storing that. Then, draw from that, the energy I need for electricity, and still have heat for water, or home space. And on a medium cloud cover, I can still focus infrared rays and collect heat. Solar panels tend to do less well with clouds. doug swanson ___ Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Joe, et al. see http://www.windsun.com/Solar_Basics/Solar_maps.htm Joe Street wrote: Hey Hakan; Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Depends on where you are. Incoming yearly average in northern US is 5-6 kW/m2. Are you sure?? I would not fly any hang glider in 100 feet per minute, because you will end up at top of a thunderstorm and come back down as an ice block. It has happened more than once by happy people who did not study hang gliding properly. Do not do it Sure I do it every week. I don't often get to climb at over 1000 fpm but 500-1000 is common. And yes I try not to get sucked into clouds. It's not legal for one thing. My point was a lot of heat energy goes back into the atmosphere. There is a staggering amount of energy in the atmoshpere, wind and clouds. Just as greenhouse gasses can affect the weather so can anything which blocks incomming radiation like pyroclastic ejecta did during the ice ages after yosemite blew up back in the old days. Deploying solar arrays on a massive scale (yes really massive) would in a way be like drawing the curtains over the earth. If the energy was not released back to the environment in the usual way through loss and waste heat (for example if it was sequestered in chemical bonds) then it could really have an effect. This is pie in the sky talk obviously but it is an interesting question. Joe Global warming is caused by higher absorption of the Earth and Air pollution that stops the reflection to escape. By capturing energy, to transform and use it in other ways, maybe the Global warming would be reduced, but it must be in a massive scale. I do not think solar capture have any weather effects even on very large scale. Our changes to the Earth surface and air, have many times larger effect. Hakan At 19:30 31/08/2005, you wrote: As a further note to the discussion of high efficiency solar arrays a question occured to me. The average incoming radiation from the sun is something like 1Kw /sq.m This is a substantial amount of energy and much of it goes into heating up a shallow layer of the surface and much gets re-radiated back to the air as longwave radiation or heat not just during the day but at night as well. Anyone who doubts the amount of solar energy re-radiated to the atmosphere needs only to consider a towering cumulonimbus cloud or better yet to get a real up close and personal gut feel for that energy take up the sport of hang gliding and experience what it is like being yanked skyward at over 1000 feet per minute by convective air currents generated by this solar energy. Supposing that some dirt cheap mass production technique allows us to produce rolls and rolls of film with very high efficiency organic solar cells one day. This technology could solve one of our needs in terms of energy generation and would allow unprecedented growth resulting in an ever increasing percentage of the earth's surface being covered up by solar arrays. Assume for the moment that these arrays are 90%efficient. Now granted that the energy collected in this way would be used in processes that have their own efficiency numbers and some energy would always be lost as waste heat but since we are always striving towards higher efficiencies in all processes, assume as well that these energy consuming processes are quite efficient and that therefore only a small amount of this energy is released back into the environment as waste heat. What effect could this have on the weather? Joe des wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine that can also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that is used primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired. And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the pto of the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots of overlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meat in the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a 1/4 of a cow in there at a time.grin Bright Blessings, Kim A system I've been working on, and redesigning throughout the years is going more toward solar heat. A solar concentrator, (reads: recycled 10' diameter satellite dish covered with little squares of mirror salvaged from the glass shop's dumpster) and a Stirling engine are integral, the engine integrating the conversion from solar heat to electricity, but then the question arose, do I really want to be dependent on a system that stores its power in batteries? So the system has shifted to collecting heat, and storing that. Then, draw from that, the energy I need for electricity, and still have heat for water, or home space. And on a medium cloud cover, I can still focus infrared rays and collect heat. Solar panels tend to do less well with clouds. doug swanson
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
The unit is also KWh/m^2/day. I am just talking Watts per square meter it is about 1 Kirk McLoren wrote: The 5 to 7 is probably per 24 hour period Kirk Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...see also http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/redbook/sum2/state.html Mike William Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Hakan Joe, Hakan, where do you find 5-7 kwm^-2 for solar incoming energy? That seems a bit high - Joe's figure seems closer. The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives a solar constant of 1.34kwm^-2, which for N. Lat. 40deg corrects to a ground surface solar energy input of about 0.7kwm^-2, if one averages for the earth's inclination at summer and winter solstices. Of course a tracking collector would collect the entire 1.34kwm^-2 on a clear cloudless day regardless of one's latitude, but here we're talking about photons heating grains of sand so the ground surface figure is the correct one. I'm with you on the hang glider advice :-). Joe, I'm not enough of an atmospheric expert to answer whether your last suggestion would improve or worsen things in earth's weather patterns. The Principle of Unintended Effects would make me hesitant to go that route, though. I would love to use Kim's sig of "Bright Blessings", but she's earned that one, so I'll just say Cheers to all, Bob (the one in West Linn, OR) - Original Message - nFrom: "Hakan Falk" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind Joe, Depends on where you are. Incoming yearly average in northern US is 5-6 kW/m2. I would not fly any hang glider in 100 feet per minute, because you will end up at top of a thunderstorm and come back down as an ice block. It has happened more than once by happy people who did not study hang gliding properly. Do not do it Global warming is caused by higher absorption of the Earth and Air pollution that stops the reflection to escape. By capturing energy, to transform and use it in other ways, maybe the Global warming would be reduced, but it must be in a massive scale. I do not think solar capture have any weather effects even on very large scale. Our changes to the Earth surface and air, have many times larger effect. Hakan At 19:30 31/08/2005, you wrote: As a further note to the discussion of high efficiency solar arrays a question occured to me. The average incoming radiation from the sun is something like 1Kw /sq.m This is a substantial amount of energy and much of it goes into heating up a shallow layer of the surface and much gets re-radiated back to the air as longwave radiation or heat not just during the day but at night as well. Anyone who doubts the amount of solar energy re-radiated to the atmosphere needs only to consider a towering cumulonimbus cloud or better yet to get a real up close and personal gut feel for that energy take up the sport of hang gliding and experience what it is like being yanked skyward at over 1000 feet per minute by convective air currents generated by this solar energy. Supposing that some dirt cheap mass production technique allows us to produce rolls and rolls of film with very high efficiency organic solar cells one day. This technology could solve one of our needs in terms of energy generation and would allow unprecedented growth resulting in an ever increasing percentage of the earth's surface being covered up by solar arrays. Assume for the moment that these arrays are 90%efficient. Now granted that the energy collected in this way would be used in processes that have their own efficiency numbers and some energy would always be lost as waste heat but since we are always striving towards higher efficiencies in all processes, assume as well that these energy consuming processes are quite efficient and that therefore only a small amount of this energy is released back into the environment as waste heat. What effect could this have on the weather? Joe des wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine that can also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that is used primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired. And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the pto of the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots of overlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meat in the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a 1/4 of a cow in there at a time. Bright Blessings, Kim A system I've been working on, and redesigning throughout the years is going more toward solar heat. A solar concentrator, (reads: recycled 10' diameter satellite dish covered with little squares of mirror salvaged from the glass shop's dumpster) and a Stirling engine are integral, the engine integrating
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
A lot depends on the seasonal variations in sun and wind in your area. Here in southern Ontario, Canada, the good winds are in the period October-May peaking in January. July and August are poor. Correspondingly we have little sunshine in winter. So wind and solar go well together. It seems that solar photovoltaic systems are very expensive but need little maintenance and are durable. Wind turbines need regular maintenance (rotating machinery, subject to fatigue loads, and they vibrate). Also, everything depends on durability and reliability. There are some makes of good machines, and some not so good, as well as scam artists who seem to be attracted to the wind energy field. Wind turbines that don't last and are often out of service can be even more expensive than PV. I wouldn't worry too much about climate change producing more clouds. Noise is a factor, there are some poorly designed and noisy wind turbines around. Site location and the local windspeed are very important for wind turbines. Buildings and trees can seriously affect windspeed and turbeulence with resulting metal fatigue and vibration. Good locations for solar collectors are somewhat easier to come by. On the other hand wind is more amenable to DIY than solar *electricity* - for those who know what they are doing. Solar thermal energy for water and space heating is should be fully exploited before bothering about renewable electricity. Conservation and efficiency are the keys to economical use of renewable energy. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Tue, 30 Aug 2005, Tom Irwin wrote: Hi All, If climate change occurs from global warming do solar panels make more sense to buy or will wind be better. My thoughts go toward wind. If the temperature expected occur, many areas will have more cloudy days from all of the extra moisture evaporated into the atmosphere from the rising ocean tamperatures. What do you all think? Wind can be fairly constant in some areas and should only increase from climate change. Tom Irwin [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Greetings, I hate batteries because they always die just when there is work to do. I do not want to depend on something that is going to have to be replaced just as it gets paid off and that I can't scrounge parts for. I don't believe that batteries are good for the environment either. Yes, some kind of storage is needed, but large battery banks just don't cut it. For the home tinkerer, I think methane storage is about the easiest I have come up with. That and biodiesel. Bright Blessings, Kim At 04:12 PM 8/30/2005, you wrote: Why do you hate batteries? They are a needed device. I would rather have a hydrogen PEM fuel cell setup. Use wind to feed a water seperation tank then feed the H2/O2 to the hPEM. Only use the hPEM when power beyond the wind source is needed, or at locations remote from the wind fed grid. Jeromie ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Hi Jerome, I don't know about the energy conversion efficiencies of a wind-electric-H2/O2-hPEM-electric-load, but at first blush it seems to have too many stages to achieve reasonable efficiency. according to Amory Lovins, apparently an H2 advocate, http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ msg50034.html the electric-H2/O2 conversion is up to 75% efficient. Assuming the same efficiency for the hPEM-electric conversion, the storage cycle would have about 57% efficiency. Battery conversion efficiency is very dependent on charge and discharge rates, and battery type, but the Iowa Energy Center claims that (lead acid?) batteries have 60-80% cycle efficiencies.http://www.energy.iastate.edu/renewable/wind/wem/wem -07_systems.html Of course you'd want to factor in the cost and life span of batteries vs hPEM. This is a tougher call since fuel cells are a quickly evolving technology. I think Garth and Kim's strategy, of modular, redundant conversion and storage systems would prove most useful in off-the-grid situations, since they're not striving for best efficiency, but highest reliability. On a related note, I'd once been a fan of fully decoupled hybrid car designs, using a motor/brake in each wheel hub, and no powertrain except the engine generator coupling. This is approximately how diesel-electric locomotives work, able to generate huge starting torque with their electrics. When I first saw the Honda hybrid designs, I thought it was silly to couple the drive electrics right to the engine. After studying the design further I realized how incredibly clever it really was, since it eliminated the duplication of heavy field windings and/or magnets in the generator and motors, partly offsetting the weight and complexity of transmission and transaxles. Furthermore, by retaining the coupling between engine and wheels, energy conversion losses were minimized. I still think that fully decoupled hybrids have a place, but perhaps more in heavily loaded city delivery trucks and the like, since they need torque more than horsepower and could gain a lot of space and design flexibility by eliminating the long heavy, drive train. Also, heavy slow vehicles gain more from electric recovery braking than fast light vehicles. Taryn ornae.com On Aug 30, 2005, at 5:12 PM, Jeromie Reeves wrote: Why do you hate batteries? They are a needed device. I would rather have a hydrogen PEM fuel cell setup. Use wind to feed a water seperation tank then feed the H2/O2 to the hPEM. Only use the hPEM when power beyond the wind source is needed, or at locations remote from the wind fed grid. Jeromie Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I hate batteries. That is why I want a system that I can power with methane if I need power when the sun is not shining. I use almost no power after the sun goes down, most of the year. We do not watch tv or other wasteful appetites for power, but, I do sometimes like to sew at night, so having the option of turning the power on, I like. Most people would be unhappy with a system that I can live with, I don't mind a little inconvenience, it just reminds me how lucky I am to have power. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:17 AM 8/30/2005, you wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine that can also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that is used primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired. And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the pto of the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots of overlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meat in the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a 1/4 of a cow in there at a time.grin Bright Blessings, Kim ... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
super capacitors have shown some promise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor Electric double-layer capacitors (EDLCs) These devices, often called supercapacitors or ultracapacitors for short, are capacitors that use a molecule-thin layer of electrolyte, rather than a manufactured sheet of material, as the dielectric. As the energy stored is inversely proportional to the thickness of the dielectric, these capacitors have an extremely high energy density. The electrodes are made of activated carbon, which has a high surface area per unit volume, further increasing the capacitor's energy density. Individual EDLCs have capacitances of hundreds or even thousands of farads. For example, the Korean company NessCap offers units up to 5000 farads (5 kF) at 2.7 V, useful for electric vehicles and solar energy applications. EDLCs can be used as replacements for batteries in applications where a high discharge current is required. They can also be recharged hundreds of thousands of times, unlike conventional batteries which last for only a few hundred or thousand recharge cycles. But capacitor voltage drops faster than battery voltage during discharge so a DC-to-DC inverter may be used to maintain voltage and to make more of the energy stored in the capacitor usable. Shanghai is testing trolleybuses employing supercapacitors. The Swiss company Skeleton http://www.skeleton-technologies.com/docs/pdf/SuPCaP_web.pdf 40kJ/kg -- rather impressive Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
As a further note to the discussion of high efficiency solar arrays a question occured to me. The average incoming radiation from the sun is something like 1Kw /sq.m This is a substantial amount of energy and much of it goes into heating up a shallow layer of the surface and much gets re-radiated back to the air as longwave radiation or heat not just during the day but at night as well. Anyone who doubts the amount of solar energy re-radiated to the atmosphere needs only to consider a towering cumulonimbus cloud or better yet to get a real up close and personal gut feel for that energy take up the sport of hang gliding and experience what it is like being yanked skyward at over 1000 feet per minute by convective air currents generated by this solar energy. Supposing that some dirt cheap mass production technique allows us to produce rolls and rolls of film with very high efficiency organic solar cells one day. This technology could solve one of our needs in terms of energy generation and would allow unprecedented growth resulting in an ever increasing percentage of the earth's surface being covered up by solar arrays. Assume for the moment that these arrays are 90%efficient. Now granted that the energy collected in this way would be used in processes that have their own efficiency numbers and some energy would always be lost as waste heat but since we are always striving towards higher efficiencies in all processes, assume as well that these energy consuming processes are quite efficient and that therefore only a small amount of this energy is released back into the environment as waste heat. What effect could this have on the weather? Joe des wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine that can also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that is used primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired. And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the pto of the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots of overlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meat in the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a 1/4 of a cow in there at a time.grin Bright Blessings, Kim A system I've been working on, and redesigning throughout the years is going more toward solar heat. A solar concentrator, (reads: recycled 10' diameter satellite dish covered with little squares of mirror salvaged from the glass shop's dumpster) and a Stirling engine are integral, the engine integrating the conversion from solar heat to electricity, but then the question arose, "do I really want to be dependent on a system that stores its power in batteries?" So the system has shifted to collecting heat, and storing that. Then, draw from that, the energy I need for electricity, and still have heat for water, or home space. And on a medium cloud cover, I can still focus infrared rays and collect heat. Solar panels tend to do less well with clouds. doug swanson ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Actually we should look at more than 2 types of alternative sources of energy. Geothermal for an example and also harnessing tides, micro hydro, magnetic energy and other inventions that are being developed. Terry Dyck From: Mel Riser [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:52:00 -0500 You need both Wind and solar. Chances are when it is windy the clouds maybe covering the nuclear reactor. When its sunny no wind. You need BOTH Mel Who has had a little experience with an AWP turbine. But my next one is a bergey 10kw Ohh . -Original Message- From: Tom Irwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 10:36 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind Hi All, If climate change occurs from global warming do solar panels make more sense to buy or will wind be better. My thoughts go toward wind. If the temperature expected occur, many areas will have more cloudy days from all of the extra moisture evaporated into the atmosphere from the rising ocean tamperatures. What do you all think? Wind can be fairly constant in some areas and should only increase from climate change. Tom Irwin _ From: Mike Weaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:56:33 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Sept 1 declared no buy gas day FWIW BP is a fairly big player in solar panels - so far a 3-6 backlog of orders. Keith Addison wrote: Hi Darryl Very nice! I'm sure others can contribute more ideas beyond the list above. My point is, don't act for a day, act for a lifetime. I'm also sure, there've been some good contributions so far. If we can et some more I can compile them and make a page at Journey to Forever for it, might help. It would be nice to internationalise it a bit, but if it doesn't work out that way I don't mind. Best wishes Keith Well, then I guess we can expect to see BP putting all their gasoline stations up for sale. After all, the managers are required to maximize the returns for their shareholders. If the stations are losing money, they have to dump them. I won't be holding my breath. As for gas-outs - it's a sad joke, as has been pointed out here before. If you want to reduce gasoline (and diesel) consumption, for whatever reason, here's a start on what you can do to make a difference. 1) Walk somewhere. Anywhere. Just leave your guzzler parked. 2) Get a bicycle. Preferably something used. Try your local FreeCycle, or bike repair co-op, or a used bike dealer. Find something comfortable and practical for your use. Then use it. 3) Check the pressure on the tires on your vehicle. Correct if necessary. Slight overinflation is better for fuel economy than slight underinflation. Repeat monthly or more frequently if required. 4) Have your vehicle tuned up on a regular, appropriate schedule. Check owner's manual for details. Check for dragging brakes, emissions control system problems, etc while you are at it. 5) Plan your trips to minimize distance travelled (trip chaining). 6) Use public transit when available and appropriate. Or carpool. 7) Use biofuels, e.g. E100, E85, E10 as recommended for your vehicle. There are many flex-fuel vehicles on the road in the U.S. due to CAFE dual-fuel incentive, where the owners don't even know the vehicle is flex-fuel capable. Check your vehicle manual. Use biodiesel blend where available or appropriate (or make your own, of course). 8) Take extra weight out of your vehicle, as accelerating extra weight uses more energy, and de-accelerating extra weight increases brake wear. (e.g. sand and salt mixture for winter use should not be in the trunk all sumer as well). 9) When shopping for tires, look for economizer / fuel miser / energy wise labels. 10) When shopping for a replacement vehicle, look for something that is as fuel- efficient as possible while meeting most of your needs - not necessarily all of your needs. You can rent a vehicle to meet occasional requirements. 11) If you want to make a political statement, pick an oil company to boycott or support. Personally, I try to buy from MacEwen's because they are local and have been promoting ethanol blend here since before it was fashionable. I boycott Exxon/Esso/Imperial Oil due to their horrendous environmental record (and other undesirable practices). Trust me, if we actually managed to drop Exxon's gross revenue in a regional market by 10% for a quarter, that would definitely get their attention. Giving their station attendants and cashiers a quiet day won't. 12) Try to drive to avoid periods of traffic congestion. You get 0 mpg when idling in stopped traffic. I'm sure others can contribute more ideas beyond the list above. My point is, don't act for a day, act for a lifetime. Darryl McMahon mphee wrote: Station owners really don't
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
TarynToo wrote: Hi Jerome, I don't know about the energy conversion efficiencies of a wind-electric-H2/O2-hPEM-electric-load, but at first blush it seems to have too many stages to achieve reasonable efficiency. The idea is to use currently wasted extra electricity from a installed power generation site. Efficiency is not very important. The ability to store the waste in a way that is usable 24/7 is. I also assume there will come better methods of electrolyzing water and hPEM efficiency. Also this H2/O2 could be used to fuel a hydrogen car/generator and smaller unit fuel cells. hPEM electrolyzers are predicted to get as high as 94%. I know it might not ever reach such. according to Amory Lovins, apparently an H2 advocate, http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ msg50034.html the electric-H2/O2 conversion is up to 75% efficient. hPEM electrolyzers are predicted to get as high as 94%. I know it might not ever reach such. Assuming the same efficiency for the hPEM-electric conversion, the storage cycle would have about 57% efficiency. Battery conversion efficiency is very dependent on charge and discharge rates, and battery type, but the Iowa Energy Center claims that (lead acid?) batteries have 60-80% cycle efficiencies.http://www.energy.iastate.edu/renewable/wind/wem/wem -07_systems.html Of course you'd want to factor in the cost and life span of batteries vs hPEM. This is a tougher call since fuel cells are a quickly evolving technology. Its very hard to decide what is the best course of action. I feel that hydrogen production from what I consider to be lost or wasted electricity to be the best case. The hydrogen will be able to fuel much of the coming technology. From simple battery replacement cells in small portable devices to powering our cars, trucks and homes. I am willing to lose efficiency for a greener power generation/storage/use cycle. I think Garth and Kim's strategy, of modular, redundant conversion and storage systems would prove most useful in off-the-grid situations, since they're not striving for best efficiency, but highest reliability. That is my thoughts also. Wind, Solar, hPEM, Battery (lead acid gel cell). The main reason I like H2 systems fed by win generators is that most wind setups have extra power that currently goes to waste. Efficient use of that waste is not to important if its able to be stored in a long term fashion. You could have 1000's (or more) gallons of H2 stored up. On a related note, I'd once been a fan of fully decoupled hybrid car designs, using a motor/brake in each wheel hub, and no powertrain except the engine generator coupling. This is approximately how diesel-electric locomotives work, able to generate huge starting torque with their electrics. When I first saw the Honda hybrid designs, I thought it was silly to couple the drive electrics right to the engine. After studying the design further I realized how incredibly clever it really was, since it eliminated the duplication of heavy field windings and/or magnets in the generator and motors, partly offsetting the weight and complexity of transmission and transaxles. Furthermore, by retaining the coupling between engine and wheels, energy conversion losses were minimized. regen breaking is very key to a truly successful electric or hybrid. There is also a air car out there that interests me allot. Wish I could get my hands on one for my wife to use for work (our biggest use of gasoline) and for my running around (I do part time PC work) I still think that fully decoupled hybrids have a place, but perhaps more in heavily loaded city delivery trucks and the like, since they need torque more than horsepower and could gain a lot of space and design flexibility by eliminating the long heavy, drive train. Also, heavy slow vehicles gain more from electric recovery braking than fast light vehicles. That is very true. There is also plenty of room in a wheel for motors and plenty of wheels. I would love to see such a conversion done and see it in operation. Taryn ornae.com On Aug 30, 2005, at 5:12 PM, Jeromie Reeves wrote: Why do you hate batteries? They are a needed device. I would rather have a hydrogen PEM fuel cell setup. Use wind to feed a water seperation tank then feed the H2/O2 to the hPEM. Only use the hPEM when power beyond the wind source is needed, or at locations remote from the wind fed grid. Jeromie Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I hate batteries. That is why I want a system that I can power with methane if I need power when the sun is not shining. I use almost no power after the sun goes down, most of the year. We do not watch tv or other wasteful appetites for power, but, I do sometimes like to sew at night, so having the option of turning the power on, I like. Most people would be unhappy with a system that I can live with, I don't mind a
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I hate batteries because they always die just when there is work to do. I do not want to depend on something that is going to have to be replaced just as it gets paid off and that I can't scrounge parts for. I don't believe that batteries are good for the environment either. I agree, they do make good interm solutions tho. If you use Gel-cell's and watch the cycle charge/discharge then they cna last a long time (IE dont drain them 100% every week, ect) Yes, some kind of storage is needed, but large battery banks just don't cut it. For the home tinkerer, I think methane storage is about the easiest I have come up with. That and biodiesel. That still produces waste gases. I look at them as interm solutions also. Is there a easy, clean way to make methane from a electical source like producing hydrogen? Hydrogen storage is simple and from the signs it will be useful in many things. Jeromie Bright Blessings, Kim At 04:12 PM 8/30/2005, you wrote: Why do you hate batteries? They are a needed device. I would rather have a hydrogen PEM fuel cell setup. Use wind to feed a water seperation tank then feed the H2/O2 to the hPEM. Only use the hPEM when power beyond the wind source is needed, or at locations remote from the wind fed grid. Jeromie ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Hello Jeromie snip regen breaking is very key to a truly successful electric or hybrid. There is also a air car out there that interests me allot. Wish I could get my hands on one for my wife to use for work (our biggest use of gasoline) and for my running around (I do part time PC work) We've been hearing about it for four years, there's been a lot of scepticism, and I still can't figure out whether there's any evidence the thing works or not. France, South Africa, Mexico were involved. http://www.mail-archive.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?config=biofuel_sustainabl elists_orgrestrict=exclude=words=aircar Or http://snipurl.com/hcia Search results for 'aircar' http://www.theaircar.com/ The MDI Air Car - the world´s cleanest car. One step closer... Hm. They were saying they'd be distributing them by end-2003. http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,60427,00.html?tw=wn_story_related Wired News: Air Car Caught in Turbulence Sep. 29, 2003 The problem is, he said, we are not raising money fast enough. Territory licenses cost 300,000 euros (about $336,000), and obligate the owner to pay millions to MDI over the lifetime of the contract to purchase the manufacturing plans, factory equipment and raw materials. If I had $3 million today, I could have cars out to people in six months, said Vencat. But MDI has not sold a single license in the United States to date. Early on, all the major car companies came to see the technology, Vencat said, but for whatever reason they did not want to invest. It's a Catch-22. They want to see a production model working before they will put in their money, but we need the money to make a production car. http://edition.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/01/22/air.car/ CNN.com - Fresh air driving - Jan. 27, 2004 A few Japanese businessmen visiting the factory for a personal tour are considering buying a license to produce and sell the air car in Japan. Already, the Negre's say they have sold more than thirty licenses to investors from Mexico, to Italy and South Africa. All part of their plan to roll out small, local factories producing the various versions of their eco-car. --- Hey buddy, wanna buy a territory licence? Best Keith snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Supposing that incoming solar radiation were mostly converted to electrical power, the electricity would be converted to heat in the process of use. This heat would be re-emitted from the earth's surface. The heat would also drive the weather, but the pattern of re-emission and presumably of the weather would be different. Much would depend on what proportion of the heat evaporated water, compared to what happens now. However, I don't think your vision is likely to come about, partly because of efficiency limitations, and partly because the scale of the human population and its environemntal impact, anbd its resource consumption, is likely to be limited by other factors. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Joe Street wrote: As a further note to the discussion of high efficiency solar arrays a question occured to me. The average incoming radiation from the sun is something like 1Kw /sq.m This is a substantial amount of energy and much of it goes into heating up a shallow layer of the surface and much gets re-radiated back to the air as longwave radiation or heat not just during the day but at night as well. Anyone who doubts the amount of solar energy re-radiated to the atmosphere needs only to consider a towering cumulonimbus cloud or better yet to get a real up close and personal gut feel for that energy take up the sport of hang gliding and experience what it is like being yanked skyward at over 1000 feet per minute by convective air currents generated by this solar energy. Supposing that some dirt cheap mass production technique allows us to produce rolls and rolls of film with very high efficiency organic solar cells one day. This technology could solve one of our needs in terms of energy generation and would allow unprecedented growth resulting in an ever increasing percentage of the earth's surface being covered up by solar arrays. Assume for the moment that these arrays are 90%efficient. Now granted that the energy collected in this way would be used in processes that have their own efficiency numbers and some energy would always be lost as waste heat but since we are always striving towards higher efficiencies in all processes, assume as well that these energy consuming processes are quite efficient and that therefore only a small amount of this energy is released back into the environment as waste heat. What effect could this have on the weather? Joe [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Terry Dyck wrote: Actually we should look at more than 2 types of alternative sources of energy. Geothermal for an example and also harnessing tides, micro hydro, magnetic energy agh. please anybody that believes in magnets as a source of energy, go build one and then give me a report. There are even plans out there. http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=Newsfile=articlesid=666 http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mromag.htm http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/qmmv11.htm or discussions: http://www.josephnewman.com/ hey, just a working model is worth money: http://www.phact.org/e/freetest.html but before you spend much time or energy, you might want to check out a site such as: http://www.tinaja.com/glib/bashpseu.pdf -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Joe, Depends on where you are. Incoming yearly average in northern US is 5-6 kW/m2. I would not fly any hang glider in 100 feet per minute, because you will end up at top of a thunderstorm and come back down as an ice block. It has happened more than once by happy people who did not study hang gliding properly. Do not do it Global warming is caused by higher absorption of the Earth and Air pollution that stops the reflection to escape. By capturing energy, to transform and use it in other ways, maybe the Global warming would be reduced, but it must be in a massive scale. I do not think solar capture have any weather effects even on very large scale. Our changes to the Earth surface and air, have many times larger effect. Hakan At 19:30 31/08/2005, you wrote: As a further note to the discussion of high efficiency solar arrays a question occured to me. The average incoming radiation from the sun is something like 1Kw /sq.m This is a substantial amount of energy and much of it goes into heating up a shallow layer of the surface and much gets re-radiated back to the air as longwave radiation or heat not just during the day but at night as well. Anyone who doubts the amount of solar energy re-radiated to the atmosphere needs only to consider a towering cumulonimbus cloud or better yet to get a real up close and personal gut feel for that energy take up the sport of hang gliding and experience what it is like being yanked skyward at over 1000 feet per minute by convective air currents generated by this solar energy. Supposing that some dirt cheap mass production technique allows us to produce rolls and rolls of film with very high efficiency organic solar cells one day. This technology could solve one of our needs in terms of energy generation and would allow unprecedented growth resulting in an ever increasing percentage of the earth's surface being covered up by solar arrays. Assume for the moment that these arrays are 90%efficient. Now granted that the energy collected in this way would be used in processes that have their own efficiency numbers and some energy would always be lost as waste heat but since we are always striving towards higher efficiencies in all processes, assume as well that these energy consuming processes are quite efficient and that therefore only a small amount of this energy is released back into the environment as waste heat. What effect could this have on the weather? Joe des wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine that can also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that is used primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired. And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the pto of the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots of overlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meat in the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a 1/4 of a cow in there at a time.grin Bright Blessings, Kim A system I've been working on, and redesigning throughout the years is going more toward solar heat. A solar concentrator, (reads: recycled 10' diameter satellite dish covered with little squares of mirror salvaged from the glass shop's dumpster) and a Stirling engine are integral, the engine integrating the conversion from solar heat to electricity, but then the question arose, do I really want to be dependent on a system that stores its power in batteries? So the system has shifted to collecting heat, and storing that. Then, draw from that, the energy I need for electricity, and still have heat for water, or home space. And on a medium cloud cover, I can still focus infrared rays and collect heat. Solar panels tend to do less well with clouds. doug swanson ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Why Bob! What are you saying? Everybody knows that magnets are an almost infinite source of free energy!* Here's a simple experiment you can do yourself: Find a bar magnet, stronger is better. wrap about 50 feet of very thin varnished copper wire around your finger loosely, so you can pull off the coil. Solder the the two ends to the contacts on a 1.5 volt peanut bulb. Move the bar magnet quickly back and forth inside your coil. Voila! Free energy! Wait... don't... stop... Oh man, you broke it!** On Aug 31, 2005, at 3:52 PM, bob allen wrote: magnetic energy agh. please anybody that believes in magnets as a source of energy, go build one and then give me a report. There are even plans out there. * This is a lie. ** For the humor impaired, this is a joke. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
That's not free energy. That is human energy. The most expensive kind of energy! Now where did all those slaves go who were cranking my generator and eating all my corn that I was going to feed my cow and stick a tube up her butt and harvest the methane gas to burn in my truck?** At 08:18 PM 8/31/2005, TarynToo said something like: Why Bob! What are you saying? Everybody knows that magnets are an almost infinite source of free energy!* Here's a simple experiment you can do yourself: Find a bar magnet, stronger is better. wrap about 50 feet of very thin varnished copper wire around your finger loosely, so you can pull off the coil. Solder the the two ends to the contacts on a 1.5 volt peanut bulb. Move the bar magnet quickly back and forth inside your coil. Voila! Free energy! Wait... don't... stop... Oh man, you broke it!** On Aug 31, 2005, at 3:52 PM, bob allen wrote: magnetic energy agh. please anybody that believes in magnets as a source of energy, go build one and then give me a report. There are even plans out there. * This is a lie. ** For the humor impaired, this is a joke. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Hi Hakan Joe, Hakan, where do you find 5-7 kwm^-2 for solar incoming energy? That seems a bit high - Joe's figure seems closer. The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives a solar constant of 1.34kwm^-2, which for N. Lat. 40deg corrects to a ground surface solar energy input of about 0.7kwm^-2, if one averages for the earth's inclination at summer and winter solstices. Of course a tracking collector would collect the entire 1.34kwm^-2 on a clear cloudless day regardless of one's latitude, but here we're talking about photons heating grains of sand so the ground surface figure is the correct one. I'm with you on the hang glider advice :-). Joe, I'm not enough of an atmospheric expert to answer whether your last suggestion would improve or worsen things in earth's weather patterns. The Principle of Unintended Effects would make me hesitant to go that route, though. I would love to use Kim's sig of Bright Blessings, but she's earned that one, so I'll just say Cheers to all, Bob (the one in West Linn, OR) - Original Message - nFrom: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind Joe, Depends on where you are. Incoming yearly average in northern US is 5-6 kW/m2. I would not fly any hang glider in 100 feet per minute, because you will end up at top of a thunderstorm and come back down as an ice block. It has happened more than once by happy people who did not study hang gliding properly. Do not do it Global warming is caused by higher absorption of the Earth and Air pollution that stops the reflection to escape. By capturing energy, to transform and use it in other ways, maybe the Global warming would be reduced, but it must be in a massive scale. I do not think solar capture have any weather effects even on very large scale. Our changes to the Earth surface and air, have many times larger effect. Hakan At 19:30 31/08/2005, you wrote: As a further note to the discussion of high efficiency solar arrays a question occured to me. The average incoming radiation from the sun is something like 1Kw /sq.m This is a substantial amount of energy and much of it goes into heating up a shallow layer of the surface and much gets re-radiated back to the air as longwave radiation or heat not just during the day but at night as well. Anyone who doubts the amount of solar energy re-radiated to the atmosphere needs only to consider a towering cumulonimbus cloud or better yet to get a real up close and personal gut feel for that energy take up the sport of hang gliding and experience what it is like being yanked skyward at over 1000 feet per minute by convective air currents generated by this solar energy. Supposing that some dirt cheap mass production technique allows us to produce rolls and rolls of film with very high efficiency organic solar cells one day. This technology could solve one of our needs in terms of energy generation and would allow unprecedented growth resulting in an ever increasing percentage of the earth's surface being covered up by solar arrays. Assume for the moment that these arrays are 90%efficient. Now granted that the energy collected in this way would be used in processes that have their own efficiency numbers and some energy would always be lost as waste heat but since we are always striving towards higher efficiencies in all processes, assume as well that these energy consuming processes are quite efficient and that therefore only a small amount of this energy is released back into the environment as waste heat. What effect could this have on the weather? Joe des wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine that can also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that is used primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired. And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the pto of the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots of overlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meat in the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a 1/4 of a cow in there at a time.grin Bright Blessings, Kim A system I've been working on, and redesigning throughout the years is going more toward solar heat. A solar concentrator, (reads: recycled 10' diameter satellite dish covered with little squares of mirror salvaged from the glass shop's dumpster) and a Stirling engine are integral, the engine integrating the conversion from solar heat to electricity, but then the question arose, do I really want to be dependent on a system that stores its power in batteries? So the system has shifted to collecting heat, and storing that. Then, draw from that, the energy I need for electricity, and still have heat for water, or home space. And on a medium cloud cover, I can still
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
...see also http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/redbook/sum2/state.html MikeWilliam Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Hakan Joe,Hakan, where do you find 5-7 kwm^-2 for solar incoming energy? That seems a bit high - Joe's figure seems closer.The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives a solar constant of 1.34kwm^-2, which for N. Lat. 40deg corrects to a ground surface solar energy input of about 0.7kwm^-2, if one averages for the earth's inclination at summer and winter solstices. Of course a tracking collector would collect the entire 1.34kwm^-2 on a clear cloudless day regardless of one's latitude, but here we're talking about photons heating grains of sand so the ground surface figure is the correct one.I'm with you on the hang glider advice :-).Joe, I'm not enough of an atmospheric expert to answer whether your last suggestion would improve or worsen things in earth's weather patterns. The Principle of Unintended Effects would make me hesitant to go that route, though.I would love to use Kim's sig of "Bright Blessings", but she's earned that one, so I'll just say Cheers to all,Bob (the one in West Linn, OR)- Original Message - nFrom: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <BIOFUEL@SUSTAINABLELISTS.ORG>Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 4:03 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind Joe, Depends on where you are. Incoming yearly average in northern US is 5-6 kW/m2. I would not fly any hang glider in 100 feet per minute, because you will end up at top of a thunderstorm and come back down as an ice block. It has happened more than once by happy people who did not study hang gliding properly. Do not do it Global warming is caused by higher absorption of the Earth and Air pollution that stops the reflection to escape. By capturing energy, to transform and use it in other ways, maybe the Global warming would be reduced, but it must be in a massive scale. I do not think solar capture have any weather effects even on very large scale. Our changes to the Earth surface and air, have many times larger effect. Hakan At 19:30 31/08/2005, you wrote: As a further note to the discussion of high efficiency solar arrays a question occured to me. The average incoming radiation from the sun is something like 1Kw /sq.mThis is a substantial amount of energy and much of it goes intoheating up a shallow layer of the surface and much gets re-radiatedback to the air as longwave radiation or heat not just during theday but at night as well. Anyone who doubts the amount of solarenergy re-radiated to the atmosphere needs only to consider atowering cumulonimbus cloud or better yet to get a real up close andpersonal gut feel for that energy take up the sport of hang glidingand experience what it is like being yanked skyward at over 1000feet per minute by convective air currents generated by this solar energy. Supposing that some dirt cheap mass production technique allows us to produce rolls and rolls of film with very high efficiency organic solar cells one day. This technology could solve one of our needs in terms of energy generation and would allow unprecedented growth resulting in an ever increasing percentage of the earth's surface being covered up by solar arrays. Assume for the moment that these arrays are 90%efficient. Now granted that the energy collected in this way would be used in processes that have their own efficiency numbers and some energy would always be lost as waste heat but since we are always striving towards higher efficiencies in all processes, assume as well that these energy consuming processes are quite efficient and that therefore only a small amount of this energy is released back into the environment as waste heat. What effect could this have on the weather?Joedes wrote:Garth Kim Travis wrote:Greetings,I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine thatcan also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that isused primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired.And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the ptoof the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots ofoverlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meatin the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a1/4 of a cow in there at a time.Bright Blessings,KimA system I've been working on, and redesigning throughout the years isgoing more toward solar heat. A solar concentrator, (reads: recycled10' diameter satellite dish covered with little squares of mirrorsalvaged from the glass shop's dumpster) and a Stirling engine areintegral, the engine integrating the conversion from solar heat toelectricity, but then the question arose, "do I really want to bedependent on a system that stores its power in batteries?" So thesystem has shifted to collecting heat, and storing that. Then, drawfrom that, the energy I need for electricity, and still have heat forwater, or home space
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
You need both Wind and solar. Chances are when it is windy the clouds maybe covering the nuclear reactor. When its sunny no wind. You need BOTH Mel Who has had a little experience with an AWP turbine. But my next one is a bergey 10kw Ohh. -Original Message- From: Tom Irwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 10:36 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind Hi All, If climate change occurs from global warming do solar panels make more sense to buy or will wind be better. My thoughts go toward wind. If the temperature expected occur, many areas will have more cloudy days from all of the extra moisture evaporated into the atmosphere from the rising ocean tamperatures. What do you all think? Wind can be fairly constant in some areas and should only increase from climate change. Tom Irwin From: Mike Weaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:56:33 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Sept 1 declared no buy gas day FWIW BP is a fairly big player in solar panels - so far a 3-6 backlog of orders. Keith Addison wrote: Hi Darryl Very nice! I'm sure others can contribute more ideas beyond the list above. My point is, don't act for a day, act for a lifetime. I'm also sure, there've been some good contributions so far. If we can et some more I can compile them and make a page at Journey to Forever for it, might help. It would be nice to internationalise it a bit, but if it doesn't work out that way I don't mind. Best wishes Keith Well, then I guess we can expect to see BP putting all their gasoline stations up for sale. After all, the managers are required to maximize the returns for their shareholders. If the stations are losing money, they have to dump them. I won't be holding my breath. As for gas-outs - it's a sad joke, as has been pointed out here before. If you want to reduce gasoline (and diesel) consumption, for whatever reason, here's a start on what you can do to make a difference. 1) Walk somewhere. Anywhere. Just leave your guzzler parked. 2) Get a bicycle. Preferably something used. Try your local FreeCycle, or bike repair co-op, or a used bike dealer. Find something comfortable and practical for your use. Then use it. 3) Check the pressure on the tires on your vehicle. Correct if necessary. Slight overinflation is better for fuel economy than slight underinflation. Repeat monthly or more frequently if required. 4) Have your vehicle tuned up on a regular, appropriate schedule. Check owner's manual for details. Check for dragging brakes, emissions control system problems, etc while you are at it. 5) Plan your trips to minimize distance travelled (trip chaining). 6) Use public transit when available and appropriate. Or carpool. 7) Use biofuels, e.g. E100, E85, E10 as recommended for your vehicle. There are many flex-fuel vehicles on the road in the U.S. due to CAFE dual-fuel incentive, where the owners don't even know the vehicle is flex-fuel capable. Check your vehicle manual. Use biodiesel blend where available or appropriate (or make your own, of course). 8) Take extra weight out of your vehicle, as accelerating extra weight uses more energy, and de-accelerating extra weight increases brake wear. (e.g. sand and salt mixture for winter use should not be in the trunk all sumer as well). 9) When shopping for tires, look for economizer / fuel miser / energy wise labels. 10) When shopping for a replacement vehicle, look for something that is as fuel- efficient as possible while meeting most of your needs - not necessarily all of your needs. You can rent a vehicle to meet occasional requirements. 11) If you want to make a political statement, pick an oil company to boycott or support. Personally, I try to buy from MacEwen's because they are local and have been promoting ethanol blend here since before it was fashionable. I boycott Exxon/Esso/Imperial Oil due to their horrendous environmental record (and other undesirable practices). Trust me, if we actually managed to drop Exxon's gross revenue in a regional market by 10% for a quarter, that would definitely get their attention. Giving their station attendants and cashiers a quiet day won't. 12) Try to drive to avoid periods of traffic congestion. You get 0 mpg when idling in stopped traffic. I'm sure others can contribute more ideas beyond the list above. My point is, don't act for a day, act for a lifetime. Darryl McMahon mphee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Station owners really don't make much money off of gas. Their lucky to make a nickel a gallon. They make their money on what's called C-Store sales. If more people could take public transportation it would help greatly. Funny tidbit. BP says they loose money on their gas stations, $100mil last year. You refine it, you transport it, you store i
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Tom, In my opinion,one shouldn't be choosingand committing to a particular form of alternative/sustainable energywhen trying to live sustainably on your own power. Our homesneed to be seen as hybrids and should be constantly diversifying and prioritizing based on your needs, resources and abilities. When your thoughts "go toward wind", it leads me to believe that you are prepared to do both but, need to prioritize. So,the top paragraph is probably nothing new to you and I apologize if I sound like I'm lecturing. I still wanted to reiterate my point since(IMO) it speaks toan important issue in US culture about complacency and how oil has promoted a philosophy of solving"the problem" with "the answer". ...my $.02 MikeTom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, If climate change occurs from global warming do solar panels make more sense to buy or will wind be better. My thoughts go toward wind. If the temperature expected occur, many areas will have more cloudy days from all of the extra moisture evaporated into the atmosphere from the rising ocean tamperatures. What do you all think? Wind can be fairly constant in some areas and should only increase from climate change. Tom Irwin___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Greetings, I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine that can also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that is used primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired. And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the pto of the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots of overlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meat in the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a 1/4 of a cow in there at a time.grin Bright Blessings, Kim At 10:52 AM 8/30/2005, you wrote: content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD7A.C1E61968 You need both Wind and solar. Chances are when it is windy the clouds maybe covering the nuclear reactor. When its sunny no wind. You need BOTH Mel Who has had a little experience with an AWP turbine. But my next one is a bergey 10kw Ohh . -Original Message- From: Tom Irwin [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 10:36 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind Hi All, If climate change occurs from global warming do solar panels make more sense to buy or will wind be better. My thoughts go toward wind. If the temperature expected occur, many areas will have more cloudy days from all of the extra moisture evaporated into the atmosphere from the rising ocean tamperatures. What do you all think? Wind can be fairly constant in some areas and should only increase from climate change. Tom Irwin From: Mike Weaver [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:56:33 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Sept 1 declared no buy gas day FWIW BP is a fairly big player in solar panels - so far a 3-6 backlog of orders. Keith Addison wrote: Hi Darryl Very nice! I'm sure others can contribute more ideas beyond the list above. My point is, don't act for a day, act for a lifetime. I'm also sure, there've been some good contributions so far. If we can et some more I can compile them and make a page at Journey to Forever for it, might help. It would be nice to internationalise it a bit, but if it doesn't work out that way I don't mind. Best wishes Keith Well, then I guess we can expect to see BP putting all their gasoline stations up for sale. After all, the managers are required to maximize the returns for their shareholders. If the stations are losing money, they have to dump them. I won't be holding my breath. As for gas-outs - it's a sad joke, as has been pointed out here before. If you want to reduce gasoline (and diesel) consumption, for whatever reason, here's a start on what you can do to make a difference. 1) Walk somewhere. Anywhere. Just leave your guzzler parked. 2) Get a bicycle. Preferably something used. Try your local FreeCycle, or bike repair co-op, or a used bike dealer. Find something comfortable and practical for your use. Then use it. 3) Check the pressure on the tires on your vehicle. Correct if necessary. Slight overinflation is better for fuel economy than slight underinflation. Repeat monthly or more frequently if required. 4) Have your vehicle tuned up on a regular, appropriate schedule. Check owner's manual for details. Check for dragging brakes, emissions control system problems, etc while you are at it. 5) Plan your trips to minimize distance travelled (trip chaining). 6) Use public transit when available and appropriate. Or carpool. 7) Use biofuels, e.g. E100, E85, E10 as recommended for your vehicle. There are many flex-fuel vehicles on the road in the U.S. due to CAFE dual-fuel incentive, where the owners don't even know the vehicle is flex-fuel capable. Check your vehicle manual. Use biodiesel blend where available or appropriate (or make your own, of course). 8) Take extra weight out of your vehicle, as accelerating extra weight uses more energy, and de-accelerating extra weight increases brake wear. (e.g. sand and salt mixture for winter use should not be in the trunk all sumer as well). 9) When shopping for tires, look for economizer / fuel miser / energy wise labels. 10) When shopping for a replacement vehicle, look for something that is as fuel- efficient as possible while meeting most of your needs - not necessarily all of your needs. You can rent a vehicle to meet occasional requirements. 11) If you want to make a political statement, pick an oil company to boycott or support. Personally, I try to buy from MacEwen's because they are local and have been promoting ethanol blend here since before it was fashionable. I boycott Exxon/Esso/Imperial Oil due to their horrendous environmental record (and other undesirable practices). Trust me, if we actually managed to drop Exxon's gross revenue in a regional market by 10
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine that can also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that is used primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired. And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the pto of the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots of overlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meat in the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a 1/4 of a cow in there at a time.grin Bright Blessings, Kim A system I've been working on, and redesigning throughout the years is going more toward solar heat. A solar concentrator, (reads: recycled 10' diameter satellite dish covered with little squares of mirror salvaged from the glass shop's dumpster) and a Stirling engine are integral, the engine integrating the conversion from solar heat to electricity, but then the question arose, do I really want to be dependent on a system that stores its power in batteries? So the system has shifted to collecting heat, and storing that. Then, draw from that, the energy I need for electricity, and still have heat for water, or home space. And on a medium cloud cover, I can still focus infrared rays and collect heat. Solar panels tend to do less well with clouds. doug swanson -- All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Greetings, I hate batteries. That is why I want a system that I can power with methane if I need power when the sun is not shining. I use almost no power after the sun goes down, most of the year. We do not watch tv or other wasteful appetites for power, but, I do sometimes like to sew at night, so having the option of turning the power on, I like. Most people would be unhappy with a system that I can live with, I don't mind a little inconvenience, it just reminds me how lucky I am to have power. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:17 AM 8/30/2005, you wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine that can also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that is used primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired. And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the pto of the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots of overlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meat in the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a 1/4 of a cow in there at a time.grin Bright Blessings, Kim A system I've been working on, and redesigning throughout the years is going more toward solar heat. A solar concentrator, (reads: recycled 10' diameter satellite dish covered with little squares of mirror salvaged from the glass shop's dumpster) and a Stirling engine are integral, the engine integrating the conversion from solar heat to electricity, but then the question arose, do I really want to be dependent on a system that stores its power in batteries? So the system has shifted to collecting heat, and storing that. Then, draw from that, the energy I need for electricity, and still have heat for water, or home space. And on a medium cloud cover, I can still focus infrared rays and collect heat. Solar panels tend to do less well with clouds. doug swanson -- All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
The best result will depend entirely on the specific circumstances. Not all places boast good solar or wind energy resources. Could be both, one or the other or neither in any specific location. That requires analysis (data logging or existing insolation or wind maps can only provide information for a general area, not a specific point location). That said, in general, I believe wind will be the primary sustainable source to watch in years to come. Global dimming is a little-known, but recognized, phenomenon. In much of the world, less insolation is reaching the earth's surface, which will impact conventional solar (PV) panels negatively. However, global warming should mean that there will be more energy in the atmosphere, which lead to higher average winds around the planet. Both sources have advantages and disadvantages. Many people believe you should have both, to diversify your supply opportunities. I still believe you should do the resource analysis for your location, and go with whichever will work best in your situation. If you are blessed with both good solar and wind energy, then wind will likely provide more watt-hours for the money. Darryl McMahon From: Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date sent: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:36:10 -0300 Subject:[Biofuel] Solar panals or wind Send reply to: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi All, If climate change occurs from global warming do solar panels make more sense to buy or will wind be better. My thoughts go toward wind. If the temperature expected occur, many areas will have more cloudy days from all of the extra moisture evaporated into the atmosphere from the rising ocean tamperatures. What do you all think? Wind can be fairly constant in some areas and should only increase from climate change. Tom Irwin _ From: Mike Weaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:56:33 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Sept 1 declared no buy gas day FWIW BP is a fairly big player in solar panels - so far a 3-6 backlog of orders. Keith Addison wrote: Hi Darryl Very nice! I'm sure others can contribute more ideas beyond the list above. My point is, don't act for a day, act for a lifetime. I'm also sure, there've been some good contributions so far. If we can et some more I can compile them and make a page at Journey to Forever for it, might help. It would be nice to internationalise it a bit, but if it doesn't work out that way I don't mind. Best wishes Keith Well, then I guess we can expect to see BP putting all their gasoline stations up for sale. After all, the managers are required to maximize the returns for their shareholders. If the stations are losing money, they have to dump them. I won't be holding my breath. As for gas-outs - it's a sad joke, as has been pointed out here before. If you want to reduce gasoline (and diesel) consumption, for whatever reason, here's a start on what you can do to make a difference. 1) Walk somewhere. Anywhere. Just leave your guzzler parked. 2) Get a bicycle. Preferably something used. Try your local FreeCycle, or bike repair co-op, or a used bike dealer. Find something comfortable and practical for your use. Then use it. 3) Check the pressure on the tires on your vehicle. Correct if necessary. Slight overinflation is better for fuel economy than slight underinflation. Repeat monthly or more frequently if required. 4) Have your vehicle tuned up on a regular, appropriate schedule. Check owner's manual for details. Check for dragging brakes, emissions control system problems, etc while you are at it. 5) Plan your trips to minimize distance travelled (trip chaining). 6) Use public transit when available and appropriate. Or carpool. 7) Use biofuels, e.g. E100, E85, E10 as recommended for your vehicle. There are many flex-fuel vehicles on the road in the U.S. due to CAFE dual-fuel incentive, where the owners don't even know the vehicle is flex-fuel capable. Check your vehicle manual. Use biodiesel blend where available or appropriate (or make your own, of course). 8) Take extra weight out of your vehicle, as accelerating extra weight uses more energy, and de-accelerating extra weight increases brake wear. (e.g. sand and salt mixture for winter use should not be in the trunk all sumer as well). 9) When shopping for tires, look for economizer / fuel miser / energy wise labels. 10) When shopping for a replacement vehicle, look for something that is as fuel- efficient as possible while meeting most of your needs - not necessarily all of your needs. You can rent a vehicle to meet occasional requirements. 11
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Why do you hate batteries? They are a needed device. I would rather have a hydrogen PEM fuel cell setup. Use wind to feed a water seperation tank then feed the H2/O2 to the hPEM. Only use the hPEM when power beyond the wind source is needed, or at locations remote from the wind fed grid. Jeromie Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I hate batteries. That is why I want a system that I can power with methane if I need power when the sun is not shining. I use almost no power after the sun goes down, most of the year. We do not watch tv or other wasteful appetites for power, but, I do sometimes like to sew at night, so having the option of turning the power on, I like. Most people would be unhappy with a system that I can live with, I don't mind a little inconvenience, it just reminds me how lucky I am to have power. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:17 AM 8/30/2005, you wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine that can also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that is used primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired. And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the pto of the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots of overlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meat in the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a 1/4 of a cow in there at a time.grin Bright Blessings, Kim A system I've been working on, and redesigning throughout the years is going more toward solar heat. A solar concentrator, (reads: recycled 10' diameter satellite dish covered with little squares of mirror salvaged from the glass shop's dumpster) and a Stirling engine are integral, the engine integrating the conversion from solar heat to electricity, but then the question arose, do I really want to be dependent on a system that stores its power in batteries? So the system has shifted to collecting heat, and storing that. Then, draw from that, the energy I need for electricity, and still have heat for water, or home space. And on a medium cloud cover, I can still focus infrared rays and collect heat. Solar panels tend to do less well with clouds. doug swanson -- All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Regardless of the climate changes wind is cheaper by far. lets say you need 25Kw/H per day (that is my average use) This assumes no storage facility and constant production Solar you have MAYBE 12 hours/day to make electricity. Of that you can only count on 25% to be producing MAX panel power. This means you need to make 2Kw/h (12 hours production) and 6.25Kw/H with 4 hours for production. With wind you need only 1.05Kw/H Now reality says you wont get wind 24/7 (some palces do) and that you will have days where you wont get any sun. For a home wind setup I would go with 2Kw/H and a fair sized storage facility. Solar I would go with 10Kw/H and a huge storage facility. If I owned the building I live in (i rent office + apt in the same building) I would mount 4 500w generators on the roof. We have a fairly good wind blowing all the time. Plenty of space for a good 24v battery bank with 2000aH. Pay off is around 3 years. It can be much shorter depending on your power use along with if your power co has a co-generation energy credit program. Jeromie Tom Irwin wrote: Hi All, If climate change occurs from global warming do solar panels make more sense to buy or will wind be better. My thoughts go toward wind. If the temperature expected occur, many areas will have more cloudy days from all of the extra moisture evaporated into the atmosphere from the rising ocean tamperatures. What do you all think? Wind can be fairly constant in some areas and should only increase from climate change. Tom Irwin *From:* Mike Weaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:56:33 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Sept 1 declared no buy gas day FWIW BP is a fairly big player in solar panels - so far a 3-6 backlog of orders. Keith Addison wrote: Hi Darryl Very nice! I'm sure others can contribute more ideas beyond the list above. My point is, don't act for a day, act for a lifetime. I'm also sure, there've been some good contributions so far. If we can et some more I can compile them and make a page at Journey to Forever for it, might help. It would be nice to internationalise it a bit, but if it doesn't work out that way I don't mind. Best wishes Keith Well, then I guess we can expect to see BP putting all their gasoline stations up for sale. After all, the managers are required to maximize the returns for their shareholders. If the stations are losing money, they have to dump them. I won't be holding my breath. As for gas-outs - it's a sad joke, as has been pointed out here before. If you want to reduce gasoline (and diesel) consumption, for whatever reason, here's a start on what you can do to make a difference. 1) Walk somewhere. Anywhere. Just leave your guzzler parked. 2) Get a bicycle. Preferably something used. Try your local FreeCycle, or bike repair co-op, or a used bike dealer. Find something comfortable and practical for your use. Then use it. 3) Check the pressure on the tires on your vehicle. Correct if necessary. Slight overinflation is better for fuel economy than slight underinflation. Repeat monthly or more frequently if required. 4) Have your vehicle tuned up on a regular, appropriate schedule. Check owner's manual for details. Check for dragging brakes, emissions control system problems, etc while you are at it. 5) Plan your trips to minimize distance travelled (trip chaining). 6) Use public transit when available and appropriate. Or carpool. 7) Use biofuels, e.g. E100, E85, E10 as recommended for your vehicle. There are many flex-fuel vehicles on the road in the U.S. due to CAFE dual-fuel incentive, where the owners don't even know the vehicle is flex-fuel capable. Check your vehicle manual. Use biodiesel blend where available or appropriate (or make your own, of course). 8) Take extra weight out of your vehicle, as accelerating extra weight uses more energy, and de-accelerating extra weight increases brake wear. (e.g. sand and salt mixture for winter use should not be in the trunk all sumer as well). 9) When shopping for tires, look for economizer / fuel miser / energy wise labels. 10) When shopping for a replacement vehicle, look for something that is as fuel- efficient as possible while meeting most of your needs - not necessarily all of your needs. You can rent a vehicle to meet occasional requirements. 11) If you
