RE: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Tom, maybe I have to reevaluate my standings about my country when I read yourstatement, flattering for our socialists if the consensus is that we have a utopia here. Anyway, how about this: you fix all the wrongdoings on your side and I will try to coop withour governments ingenious ideason my side? -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Tom IrwinSent: den 17 augusti 2005 17:23To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: RE: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point Hello Kjell, I pretty much know what is wrong with America. But don't keep us in suspense what is wrong with Sweden? Other than no sun for some period of the year that is. Tom Irwin From: Kjell Lofgren [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 05:35:11 -0300Subject: RE: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point Brian, sorry for chipping (!) in late but your romantic views calls for a comment. Snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Kjell, As I no longer this in the capitalists paradise I have only my vote and my electronic voice to change things. I will keep at it. I'm also training the next generation in sustainable methods in my Environmental Science class. It is a tiny hammer against a big rock but I keep pounding every day. Tom Irwin From: Kjell Lofgren [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 03:43:08 -0300Subject: RE: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point Tom, maybe I have to reevaluate my standings about my country when I read yourstatement, flattering for our socialists if the consensus is that we have a utopia here. Anyway, how about this: you fix all the wrongdoings on your side and I will try to coop withour governments ingenious ideason my side? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Brian, sorry for chipping (!) in late but your romantic views calls for a comment. Turn the trees into pellets?This is a nice idea but give me more info to work with please.I can take the bait if you like.I was waiting and hoping for a chance to enter into a discussion in this group in which I might be able to inject some of my family knowledge. You all haveseenhintsofmy familys sustainable living philosophy in my writing before. I am new here so I will spare you the long winded version. My wife says we tend toward the socialist side when it comes to living and working conditions. As Sweden is a socialist country I do have some knowledge living in such a country. And it is not all heaven if you thought that. Neither living in the US, I believe. What I know about pellets is that the forest is harvested using big nasty looking machines. I have seen these forest eaters in action just a few miles from here. The harvesters use hydraulic snips or power saws while a large hydraulic mechanical arm lift the tree up and over the cab into a chipper. Ok, now that I drew that mental image for you I hope we can see that pellet creation is for big business not the kind of fodder I have seen tossed back and forth at the Biofuels group. First of all, our forest processors nasty looking or not - dont chip up perfectly good timber, thats a real waste! The timber is sawed and planed and only the sawdust and the shavings are dried and pressed to pellets. My God, timber to chips The machine you talk about was probably a small dedicated chipper for branches and small trees that had to be cleaned away for the planting machine to do his job the new forest. And pressing pellets can be done small scale in your own back yard. Snoop around on the net for pellet presses/machines! It is our opinion people need to process the excess wood by hand thus creating jobs while getting more people outdoors and in the forest. A couple of days worth of good old fashioned hard work and one man with a power saw and a pickup truck can process enough firewood fuel to heat his home for a few months. Then I can tell you about my first (and only) view of a REAL socialistic system, the Communist Republic ofthe Sovjet Union. When coming in through the western part of that huge country there where very large potato fields, the horizon was the limit of some fields and the harvesting time was imminent. On oneendlessly large field was about five people gathered to harvest, no machines in sight, no mechanical devices, the only thing they had to work with was a pick and then a bucket to collect the potatoes in. Is such a good old fashioned hard work-socialistic system something to go for in your opinion? -SNIP- -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Brian RodgersSent: den 16 augusti 2005 17:31To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this pointKen Gotberg wrote: Brian You should consider turning the trees into pellets. There is a lot of info on this from Danish and Swedish websites. Let someone else mess with boilers etc. KenTurn the trees into pellets? This is a nice idea but give me more info to work with please. I can take the bait if you like. I was waiting and hoping for a chance to enter into a discussion in this group in which I might be able to inject some of my family knowledge. You all have seen hints of my familys sustainable living philosophy in my writing before. I am new here so I will spare you the long winded version. My wife says we tend toward the socialist side when it comes to living and working conditions. What I know about pellets is that the forest is harvested using big nasty looking machines. I have seen these forest eaters in action just a few miles from here. The harvesters use hydraulic snips or power saws while a large hydraulic mechanical arm lift the tree up and over the cab into a chipper. Ok, now that I drew that mental image for you I hope we can see that pellet creation is for big business not the kind of fodder I have seen tossed back and forth at the Biofuels group. It is our opinion people need to process the excess wood by hand thus creating jobs while getting more people outdoors and in the forest. A couple of days worth of good old fashioned hard work and one man with a power saw and a pickup truck can process enough firewood fuel to heat his home for a few months. Mind you that the Southwest does not have the same problems with de-forestation that the rest of the world has. In fact I only know about the worlds forest issues from what I have read. Our family tends toward local forest issues. We have plenty of these issues to keep us busy. The majority of the forest land of the Southwest United States have been clear-cut on
RE: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Hello Kjell, I pretty much know what is wrong with America. But don't keep us in suspense what is wrong with Sweden? Other than no sun for some period of the year that is. Tom Irwin From: Kjell Lofgren [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 05:35:11 -0300Subject: RE: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point Brian, sorry for chipping (!) in late but your romantic views calls for a comment. Snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Alright! Very cool. Thank you for the fantastic feedback Kjell. Brian, sorry for chipping (!) in late but your romantic views calls for a comment. Turn the trees into pellets? This is a nice idea but give me more info to work with please. I can take the bait if you like. Wow, do I sound romantic in my views? My wife says we tend toward the socialist side when it comes to living and working conditions. As Sweden is a socialist country I do have some knowledge living in such a country. And it is not all heaven if you thought that. Neither living in the US, I believe. Actually, I have no idea what it is like in any other country. Unfortunate for me that I have traveled much less than I hoped for in my life. My only excursions have been to Mexico on vacations where I camped and explored as much of the countryside on foot as time permitted. I wish I could get out of the US and see Europe, Asia and Africa. In the meantime I am very fortunate that this group offers us (Ugly(!)) Americans a view of life outside of our mostly self-absorbed lives. For this I thank you all. What I know about pellets is that the forest is harvested using big nasty looking machines. I have seen these forest eaters in action just a few miles from here. The harvesters use hydraulic snips or power saws while a large hydraulic mechanical arm lift the tree up and over the cab into a chipper. Ok, now that I drew that mental image for you I hope we can see that pellet creation is for big business not the kind of fodder I have seen tossed back and forth at the Biofuels group. First of all, our forest processors nasty looking or not - dont chip up perfectly good timber, thats a real waste! The timber is sawed and planed and only the sawdust and the shavings are dried and pressed to pellets. My God, timber to chips The machine you talk about was probably a small dedicated chipper for branches and small trees that had to be cleaned away for the planting machine to do his job the new forest. And pressing pellets can be done small scale in your own back yard. Snoop around on the net for pellet presses/machines! Sorry about the confusion. I didnt mean to say that forest harvesters are chewing up good timber. We love our timber in New Mexico. My house is built from trees harvested on our property. I will look at home brew pellets. I was re-reading what I wrote here the other day and realized that I sounded pretty closed minded to the creation of pellets from waste wood. This a great idea, I will look at it again. It is my understanding that the bark from our type of pine tree must be removed before processing the sawdust into pellets. Do you know where I might find more info on pellets? It is our opinion people need to process the excess wood by hand thus creating jobs while getting more people outdoors and in the forest. A couple of days worth of good old fashioned hard work and one man with a power saw and a pickup truck can process enough firewood fuel to heat his home for a few months. Then I can tell you about my first (and only) view of a REAL socialistic system, the Communist Republic ofthe Sovjet Union. When coming in through the western part of that huge country there where very large potato fields, the horizon was the limit of some fields and the harvesting time was imminent. On oneendlessly large field was about five people gathered to harvest, no machines in sight, no mechanical devices, the only thing they had to work with was a pick and then a bucket to collect the potatoes in. Is such a good old fashioned hard work-socialistic system something to go for in your opinion? I really do not feel stongly about using Americans for manual labor. I don't have a lot of respect for most of the Americans I have met as far as ever being productive hard workers. This idea must be where you got the notion that I am romantic about anything, lol. Again thanks for the feedback. Sincerely, Brian Rodgers P.S. I am rebuilding my website www.outfitnm.com If I can get some more work done in transfering my old Frontpage website to the new Macromedia CSS site you will begin to find interesting info about the forests of the southwest. As of yesterday I had only info concerning my PC service business there. I got a few things done yesterday and maybe more today. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Brian You should consider turning the trees into pellets. There is a lot of info on this from Danish and Swedish websites. Let someone else mess with boilers etc. Ken Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Ken Gotberg wrote: Brian You should consider turning the trees into pellets. There is a lot of info on this from Danish and Swedish websites. Let someone else mess with boilers etc. Ken Turn the trees into pellets? This is a nice idea but give me more info to work with please. I can take the bait if you like. I was waiting and hoping for a chance to enter into a discussion in this group in which I might be able to inject some of my family knowledge. You all have seen hints of my familys sustainable living philosophy in my writing before. I am new here so I will spare you the long winded version. My wife says we tend toward the socialist side when it comes to living and working conditions. What I know about pellets is that the forest is harvested using big nasty looking machines. I have seen these forest eaters in action just a few miles from here. The harvesters use hydraulic snips or power saws while a large hydraulic mechanical arm lift the tree up and over the cab into a chipper. Ok, now that I drew that mental image for you I hope we can see that pellet creation is for big business not the kind of fodder I have seen tossed back and forth at the Biofuels group. It is our opinion people need to process the excess wood by hand thus creating jobs while getting more people outdoors and in the forest. A couple of days worth of good old fashioned hard work and one man with a power saw and a pickup truck can process enough firewood fuel to heat his home for a few months. Mind you that the Southwest does not have the same problems with de-forestation that the rest of the world has. In fact I only know about the worlds forest issues from what I have read. Our family tends toward local forest issues. We have plenty of these issues to keep us busy. The majority of the forest land of the Southwest United States have been clear-cut on two occasions, both times for the rail system. I wont get into how we were cheated out of any benefit from those rail systems by the auto industries. I will leave that for another time. The first time in the trees were mowed down was in the early nineteen hundreds, the second time around fifty years ago. Loggers worked the easy trees on the first run through the forests. Similar to the way oil companies get the easy oil first, after the artesian wells run dry, oil rigs pump, then the oil gets more expensive quick. Energy economy I think an environmentalist pal called it. It was the same with the trees, the harvested the big boys down by the rail tracks first, as time went on teams of loggers travel further up the hill to drag the by mule down to the rail. I found some interesting material about logging in the Sacramento mountains during this time. http://www.mountainmonthly.com/logging.html One thing which seems to set our forests apart from other forests is that ours grow back pretty fast when well managed. I have hiked many of the forests in our area and on several occasions with my buddy the sawyer. He knows about logging. So, if what I am seeing with my own eyes is true, these trees are a renewable resource. It takes the average Ponderosa Pine tree thirty years to reach maturity. What the tree huggers call old growth trees in the Southwest are in fact only fifty-year-old trees. How can I say this? Poor tree hugger couldnt be wrong, could he? Remember I am with a logger now, in the forest. When a Ponderosa Pine, a Douglas Fir, or any of the species of the Southwest reach a hundred years old, they generally fall over dead, tree hugger with it! Hiking through the forests up in the high country is breath taking. Not unlike down here at the ranch where we have selectively pruned and thinned. Most of the Forest Service land of which there are huge tracks all around us here in New Mexico are in total chaos. After the Railroad came through on what was their final logging run, the forests were left in a shambles. The rairoad must have had a plan however, because the forests did grow back after the first run. However, this process was stopped in its tracks to use a bad pun. The forest went through a new era during the seventies through the nineties, an era without any form of management. Those of us that live here see the devastating results of this lack of management everyday. The forests, instead of recovering like they did the first time the railroad came through, are stagnant, stunted, and ugly for the most part. No trees worth hugging anywhere to be found. There are plenty of well documented studies which can show you exactly how this happened. Check out any of the USDA Forest Service sites for the Southwest. Those foresters know what happened and take plenty of blame for it. On an upbeat note, the Forest Service has made huge strides in correcting its mistakes and are to be commended. One area I disagree with the Forest Service is in the use of Forest Harvester. Again, I think we need to get more people in the forests working by hand, not big
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Great feedback Robert, thanks
I think I have a better grasp of your aptitude
at this point. Even if you ARE comfortable with boilers, I suggest you
join a "Live Steam" group and spend some time with people, like you,
who understand machines.
You are right to caution people on the hazards of boilers. I will look
for a live steam group.
Skip Goebel, who lives in Missouri, is probably
the most knowledgeable person I'm aware of when it comes to steam,
Yes this is one of the first sites I found the other day. I can't
recall how I came to it though. Most of my reading starts with the JTF
site. Just now I went back there to see if I could reestablish the link
for others to follow but I lost it.
but he's HAD IT with people who are interested
in renewable energy. ("Fruitcakes and dreamers"-- people like me!)
As most of us have learned from experience it helps to dream first then
experiment. This process is what keeps us from being fruit cakes. We
are not satisfied with talking about it. We have to do it! We can be
inspired by dreams.
His equipment is up for sale right now, but
don't talk to him unless you have money and the willingness to spend
it!
http://www.sensiblesteam.net/
Your message made me think that maybe I should quit the 'day job' which
requires that I drive about thirty miles per day to get to work. For
obvious reasons money is going to be even harder to come by in the near
future. Instead I was thinking of trying to find funding to take my
dream to the home brew lab I am now building in the backyard. I want to
try something right now.
Getting excited.
Brian Rodgers
www.outfitnm.com
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Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Thank you Manick You have another option with steam. It will break down on its ownhemicelluloses under pressure. And if a catalyst is present celluloses also, in yields depending on amounts present. I think you could use acids or alkalis as catalysts. You could use undigested lignin as boiler fuel. Boilers are 'the workhorses' of industry aren't they. If you have lots of wood to be culled why not change it to electric power into the grid. Just a thought. Cheers. Yes, this is very encouraging and one of the reasons I began looking at steam power. I read in an article at JTF concerningcellulose hydrolysis http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose they are using steam for a major part of the process. This and some things that other biofuels group folks have been writing on the [Biofuel] ethanol from wood using mushrooms thread peaked my interest in steam. Brian Rodgers www.outfitnm.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Hi Chris Thanks for the letter. brian, i would seriously encourage you to look into a solar rather than wood power to run your boiler. i don't know the capabilities or limitations of solar boilers, but i know they're out there and your location, well, isn't that kind of like solar paradise? battery banks can provide your energy needs at night, perhaps augmented by a small biod (or wvo or ethanol) generator for any individual structure that might have higher power requirements on occasion. Yes a solar paradise, the Southwest US is. Lately, though it has been cloudy and or raining every day. I may experiment with solar at some point but at the moment we in the SW have a crisis in the over-abundance of small diameter trees. These trees are a renewable resource and they are burning in wildfires. I believe we need to look at all forms of renewable energy. Solar is important but here in northern New Mexico we have more trees than sun and wind at the moment. I am sure this point can be contested but just the same most of the foresters and environmentalists in the SW are working on solutions to this crisis. I am simply attempting to combine the two problems. I realize that I may be over simplifying the problem. It still seems to me that we might be able to kill two birds with one stone, if you will pardon the clich. in fact, i expect the solar boiler itself could be augmented with wood power, either to boost total power output or to extend total generating hours. your firebox could probably be a lot smaller, and designed for quick loading in the early a.m. hours; before the solar heat starts to get too intense. you probably wouldn't need the wood power at all a lot of the time, so you'd save a lot of work as far as keeping the firebox full, maintaining your fuel supply, and so on. This is a good point but consider that my family lives in our private forest which we have been cultivating for thirty plus years. We want to use the wood ourselves. We are not interested in smaller fireboxes. We have been heating our homes with wood for thirty years. We are tired of blocking and splitting small peices. We have always done it by hand. We want a big muther chucker firebox that will take big peices of wood. On top of this I really like the idea of a centrally located boiler that needs stoking every few days. also, it can be more efficient to look at all the different power needs you're looking to meet. for example, odds are certain outbuildings can easily be powered with a small pv/battery or wind/battery setup. and where the power use is greater, smaller, individual solar (or wood or wood/solar) boilers might be more efficient. using the hot water to heat your home at night is more efficient this way as well. My family has been conservation minded always, my father taught us well. With this in mind I think you need to let people know more about batteries. In my opinion they are a big pain in the rear. I know that great strides forward have been made to the tecnology but I have to tell you that I hold no affection for lead acid batteries and the problematic storage they need. Then you have to dispose of them when they give out, which seem to happen all to often. If I can create a system that uses a readily available (to my family) renewable resource and leave batteries out of the mix I will be a happy camper. not to mention wind turbines. there a plethora of DIY wind turbine projects to be found on the web. it's surprising how easy they are. one or two people could fabricate and install a pretty powerful one as a weekend project. you can also make the project much lower-impact if you wanted, since a good deal of the work consists of small tasks that can be done individually whenever you have a spare moment or two. I am sorry if it sounds as though I am rebutting your every comment but here I go again. Yes the wind blows in New Mexico, not today but often it does. My house is in the forest. One of the really fine features of living in the forest is, no wind. I followed several of the wind energy links and threads in this group. It looks intriguing but I think for now I will leave that reosurce alone for awhile. my main point is, to really try and go non-carbon. the alternatives are there and totally viable. you can be no less energy-independent than with wood or biofuels, and still generate excess capacity. it might be a little more work up front, but in the long run should require much less. Go non carbon? Are we not a carbon based lifeform? Hehe on another note, prickly pear fruit is extremely nutritous. you're better off eating it than converting it. Thank you Chris. My wife really likes prickly pear fruit. I on the other hand am more of a drinker, Ummm prickly pear wine! Brian Rodgers www.outfitnm.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
i wondered about the layout and terrain of your property while writing the previous. but since you are always referring to it as the ranch, one forms a certain idea. :) just to clarify one point, while i did comment on smaller boilers to serve separate buildings, my remark about a smaller firebox was a separate issue. i was referring there not to a smaller boiler, just the firebox i.e. the size of firebox required for a wood-supplemented solar boiler of a given capacity would be smaller than if it were run on wood power alone. it's true that batteries are not zero maintenance, but the maintenance requirements are really quite low. and actually, quality lead-acid batteries have a low failure rate when used properly. anyway, living actually *in* the forest does present different considerations. using wood for fuel does make a lot more sense in that context. (not that i thought it made no sense before). cheers, -chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Brian Rodgers wrote: Great feedback Robert, thanks You're welcome. I wish I could contribute to the practical, hands on discussions of this list more often than I do. Yes this is one of the first sites I found the other day. I can't recall how I came to it though. Most of my reading starts with the JTF site. Just now I went back there to see if I could reestablish the link for others to follow but I lost it. Skip has been around for awhile. Another interesting character in a related field is Peter Singfield, an expatriate Canadian who now lives in Belize. Long ago he and I were having discussions about an organic rankine cycle expansion engine using butane as the working fluid. You can learn more about it here: http://belizeone.com/BzLibrary/trust39.html I've lost contact with Peter after dropping my subscription to Tom Reed's gasification list. When I built my house I was offline for several months, and I never got around to resubscribing. That was four computers and two operating systems ago . . . My interest in steam, ORC and gasification died a slow and lingering death. Jeff Sterling has been playing around with ORC for a number of years, but not a lot seems to come out of it. He's built several prototypes, each one more effective than previous models. You can find his site here: http://www.sterlingsolar.com/main_broadband.htm Your message made me think that maybe I should quit the 'day job' which requires that I drive about thirty miles per day to get to work. I did. My commute now consists of walking downstairs. The benefits to personal health and the pocketbook cannot be underestimated! With premium gasoline running $1.18 per liter this morning, I'm very glad I've parked my truck. Getting excited. That's great! Enthusiasm can be a very good thing. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Hello Chris Thanks for the response. Sorry about the confusion. We call it a ranch but it can be considered a tree farm or a cattle ranch. We have 50 acres of irrigated pasture, 50 acres non irrigated pasture, 100 acres of Ponderosa Pine forest and 40 acres of Pion and Cedar Trees. Our family leases the property out to a local cattle rancher for four months per year. You could call it a tree ranch. We have manicured the forest to a great extent enabling grazing there as well. it's true that batteries are not zero maintenance, but the maintenance requirements are really quite low. and actually, quality lead-acid batteries have a low failure rate when used properly. Batteries, I have some experience with having been in the consumer electronics service field for twenty years and another ten years as a mechanic before that. So I probably have a bad taste in my mouth about batteries as the majority of devices I see are defective and misused. Good point here Chris. anyway, living actually *in* the forest does present different considerations. using wood for fuel does make a lot more sense in that context. (not that i thought it made no sense before). We do have a tendency to feel a bit disassociated from the rest of society being "out there' on the ranch most of the time. This biofuels group is such an eye opener for me. Thank you all so much Brian Rodgers ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Thanks Harlan Hi Brian, Why not use the cellulose and convert it to methane using anerobic fermentation. The residue is fertilizer and the products are CO2 and methane gas. One glucose molecule gives you 3 parts methane and 3 parts(molecules) CO2. Burn the methane directly in the generator. Separating the methane from co2 should not be too difficult since CO2 is water soluble and methane is not. Cow dung has all the appropriate enzymes for the breakdown and its cheap. Hal This looks workable and I do like the idea of producing a little methane while I am at it. I googled anerobic fermentation and found some stuff like this. http://www.pipeline.com/~dglickd/CFR.html Can you explain the difference between a anerobic digester and an anerobic fermenter if any? Wait a sec.. I think I just answered my question in my head as I typed this. One ferments, the other composts or digests , both break down the cellulose in absence of oxygen, right? Is this expensive and complicated? It sounds like I can do a small scale test in the yard. What kind of containers should I scrounge for a trial run? My friend with the sawmill has a 2000 gallon tank setup and waiting for me to come up with a plan for breaking down sawdust. Actually, I will need to do a bit of convincing, his plan for the tank is water storage. Brian Rodgers ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
You would be farbetter to try and build a ranch community that didn't require heating other than that provided by the sun, there's a number of these sorts of projects going on, for cooling fan forced cooling via the concrete foundation slab is becoming more popular. this removes the excess heat from the building during the day, then releases it at night to help maintain a stable temperature. this costs pennies to the dollarcompared to traditional aircon / heat pumps. How ever there's nothing wrong with learning a new field =) Cheers, Bede. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Helow Brain, Tom , Robert , Keith and every one As I am from academics side involved in this subject in our list with PHD thesis (IIT, Delhi, India in 1980) on enzymatic hydrolysis of bimass waste and following the research for the past 25 years in this area .After seeing remarkable break through in cellulase enzyme productivity and costs, now I am sure that the low energy path of depolymerization of cellulose using enzymes can be practical for distributed bioethanol made possible from paper and biomass wastes. Eventhouh acid hydrolysis is commercially proven technology , some physical and Biological pretreatment using fungi followed by the enzymatic hydrolysis using commercially available celluase enzyme , with reuse of enzymes can make possible practically depolymerize cellulose to higher yield , making also possible the simultaneous fermentation and depolimerization all this as well studied with higher yields too. However the problems are yet the low concentration of alcohol in the process and enzyme recovery yet not very high. With the use of solvent (caster oil ) alcohol and water as described her in the biofuel list archives can make possible to overcome the problems ina practical way and sub products ezymatically degraded ethanol soluble lignin can be used as an usfuel biofuel as lignin has higher calorific value.The mushroom process can make depolimerization in practical way as an effective pretreatment. This route is yet to be outined in detail in web page of http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Yet, Keith has some infomation , but not yet published in the web pages as this small biomass refinary not yet matured one but is developing fast one to be as this not only the acadamic , but also practical one for the very near future. Small Biomass refinery for biofuel production by rural farmer can bring food, feed , fuel,fertillizer in a decentralized way with more sustainabilty and peace to the world. I am sure that our biofuel list and the list members is the only global forum to make this path , transfer it global and make the difusion to all parts of the world who need it. Greeting to all Yours truely Pannirselvam Brasil On 8/13/05, Brian Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Tom, Robert, and everyone for the fantastic feedback. I received an email from my Dad, the retired chemist. He suggests we move away from the idea of de-polymerizing cellulose as it seems out of our reach financially and technologically. I am happy to let the process of mycelium-rot to the fungi folks and let them see what they can do with it. Dad said he could find no serious research into cellulose breakdown by any of his friends at the university. Without the help of these academics, he believes we can not continue on our own. I told him we would continue to knock it around at the Biofuels email list. I will continue to pursue the ethanol angle, but I will stick to conventional methods of fermentation. For instance, I will explore the naturally occurring sugar plants. A friend came by the other day with wine made from prickly pears. Very potent drink with all the flavor a wine enthusiast can wish for. I will search for more locally available, naturally occurring, sugary feedstock to get my experiments going with fermentation. My next research project will be steam power. With more great info found through the vast wealth of knowledge at the Journey to Forever web site, I think it makes a lot of sense to burn the readily available waste wood as opposed to breaking it down in order to ferment it. I realize that the smoke is going to be a problem, so I am hoping with experience I gained building several wood burning heat stoves I can build an efficient fire box. It's weird, but the morning process around here is similar to the steam engine. As I work on my daily newsletter, ideas are slow to build up, gain momentum, albeit sloppy and sluggish, then the whistle blows, and I finally figure out what I want to write about. Then I have to read what I already have, edit out the erroneous filler that got me focused in the first place, and then I really get going, full steam ahead. I was talking with my older brother last night. I attempted to inspire him with my new plans for a steam powered ranch community. One massive, centrally located, wood fired boiler which easily converts waste wood to energy. Steam is routed to several households in close proximity. A nearby steam powered electric generator should be able to furnish enough power to run the entire ranch with power left over during non-peak electric use hours to sell back to the local Electric Co-Op. I still need to research the circuits needed to reverse power back through the meter. But this is well within my understanding, much more so than chemistry.
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Okally Dokally. Thank you for your concern. Twenty years ago part of my job at the local movie theatre was keeping all the machines in operation. This included maintaining an old natural gas boiler down in the dark nasty basement. This old dinosaur had been converted from coal to oil and then to natural gas during its roughly one hundred years in operation. The boiler system was a monstrosity. Feeding this beast was a four inch gas line. I was instructed by the theatre manager(my girlfriend) to flip the switch on and run. Yeah it was scary. Upon closer inspection, which I do with most machines, time permitting, I found several safety devices on the boiler. Im a natural born mechanic, not one to take everything apart, I enjoy understanding how things work using the book method. What became clear to me upon my first fact finding trip down in the dungeon, was that most of the safety devices had been bypassed. About the only circumstance which would shut this beast down was the pilot light blowing out or the water jacket bursting. The slaves as my lady called the ushers and projectionists were given good advice to run after lighting this thing. I had a regular job during the week. I was fresh out of college and working at my new profession at Computerland de Santa Fe, but the theatre was mostly night work so whenever I had the time I would go over each piece of antique equipment down at the theatre. The boiler was not nearly as intricate as the 35mm carbon arc projectors, but I felt right at home in the cellar. The boiler did have a massive brick firewall all around it and was sitting down in sort of a moat as well. I would like to have seen that boiler during the coal fired days. A hopper filled the firebox from a bin which was filled first from the alley. Thats the type of automation I like to see, Old World style mechanics. I put all of the safety relays and systems back on line by the time Winter kicked in. I shudder to think of the roughly 750 people sitting above that boiler watching a movie before I gave it the once-over twice. The only system I would leave to the experts is the gas controls, although I have a basic understanding of these devices as well. Plumbing and heating companies are the only way to go when it comes to gas heaters, especially when the feed-pipe is four inches in diameter. When the switch was flipped and the relays kicked open the gas valves, that boiler would roar. But anyway, I hope you dont mind that my way of thinking nowadays is to write it down. Writing helps me focus on what I want to think about. I have found that like-minded people enjoy hearing how things work from an expert mechanics point of view. Sorry I dont mean to sound arrogant. But people that truly understand machines are few and far between. I have spent my life as an outsider more interested in machines than the people around me. Now that I have matured a bit (Im over fifty) I am putting most of my attention and energy into family and friends. So, yeah boilers are right up my alley as are pretty much any machines. The thrust of my research here has been to find a way to use small diameter trees. These are choking the forests in the Southwest United States and creating a wildfire problem. Arizona and New Mexico have been in the news these last few years as hundreds of thousands of acres of forest land have burned. I dont know if you heard it on the news several years ago the US Forest Service with the help of the Park Service burned the town of Los Alamos damn near to the ground. Yeah the birth place of the atom bomb is just over the Sangre de Christo Mountains. I always feel comforted that there is a 10,000 foot high mountain range separating our ranch from Los Alamos National Labs. The USFS was practicing a policy known as a controlled burn when the blaze got out of hand and burned half the homes in the town of Los Alamos, NM and thousands of acres besides. For me, since I am not much of a humanitarian, the loss of homes is less important than the loss of forestland. I especially dislike that yuppies feel the need to build their expensive homes in the forest. Nobody was hurt in the Los Alamos controlled burn by the way. Most people that live in what is now called the forest interface were warned to thin the tress around homes. Of course they dont want to do this because they think it would defeat their main purpose of living in the forest. I live in the forest I should add. Our family has lived here for thirty plus years during which we have actively manicured our roughly one hundred and fifty acres of forest land. One of the really scary results of the wildfires in the Southwest US is a recent policy of designating basins above reservoirs as water-shed areas. I have taken several tours of these nearby monstrosities. Apparently, the principal idea is that the trees get in the way of the limited rainfall running off into the reservoirs. Combine that fact with all the yuppies losing their condos in
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Brian-
I'm new to the list and might reply to the
group if I knew how. It sounds like your Pop is a good guy to know,
especially since mine never got past eighth grade, but in some ways he was
pretty smart too. One of the things he recommended was to get off the farm
and stay there. My brothers did, and they made money and are still drinking
it up. I had to be a grunt, failed, and had to go back to the farm for
survival. I did get a forestry degree a few years back and now laugh to
myself when I say I am a consultant.
The present reality (although it might
hopefully change) is that due to the high (IMHO) energy inputs, low value
wood has no current uses that can make much money. But,and
here's the big BUT, a review of history suggests to me a slightly
different possible scenario. In that light, looking at the history of europe
and asia, much environmental degradation has taken place, and I suggest for
the same reason-energy. In my current situation, buying straw for bedding is
impossible, but I have a glut of pine needles to rake up (like the leaves of
forests in the dark ages). I can't afford steel,lumber or concrete, but I
can build with sandstone andcordwood using chopped branches mixed with
clay as a binder (cob). I can sell my hickoryand still heat my shack
with the left over trash. Forest depletion then, can result again, and I
might add, for the same reason-no-money, and thus no energy.
If you read up on making charcoal, one glaring
fact seems to stand out, and that is the loss of energy in producing it. I
maintain that it is NOT lost, it is altered in a way that is not currently
able to be captured. I suggest you read up on what is termed "the indirect
method", in short it is heating the wood mass high enough to drive out the
water, volitiles, and tars, with charcoal as the residual fuel. This process
has two components. The first (heating the wood) takes heat (I use the
branches), off-gassing (and burning the smoke) is highly exothermic and
extremely clean-burning. Last winter, I built two 50gal drum-sized units
from one of the plans on the net and put them inside the garage thinking it
might help with the heat and found out that it really didn't. Not because
heat wasn't produced, rather because I had to open all the doors and turn on
the fans and blow the heat outside because I had too much. This, in a
relatively cold Wisconsin winter.
In forestry terms, this lets me use the entire
tree less the roots, and as such, I use only low value trees which are by
far more abundant and even then I am not required to cut near as many.
Yesterday, I did a long read about the kalle
charcoal gasifier and have read a lot of others before. This is an old
technology that is well known to work. You give me the impression that it
might be better to "just burn the wood" and I tend to agree. However, there
seems, at least to me,to be a missing link somewhere. Like one
to use the excess heat from the off-gassing of charcoal production for the
distillation of ethanol, electricty production, and home
heating/cooling/cooking.
The nuts (maybe me) and bolts of the matter
are beyond me, but maybe not your Pop. So, this e-mail is really a request
for any knowledge he might posess on the subject and some sort of reply from
you (+or-) on what you can dig up.
Thanks
Dale
Original Message -
From:
Brian
Rodgers
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 6:51
PM
Subject: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing
cellulose not practical at this point
Thank you Tom, Robert, and
everyone for the fantastic feedback. !--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--!--[endif]--
I received an email from my Dad, the
retired chemist. He suggests we move away from the idea of
de-polymerizing cellulose as it seems out of our reach financially and
technologically. I am happy to let the process of mycelium-rot
to the fungi folks and let them see what they can do with it. Dad said he
could find no serious research into cellulose breakdown by any of his
friends at the university. Without the help of these academics, he believes
we can not continue on our own. I told him we would continue to knock it
around at the Biofuels email list.
!--[if
!supportEmptyParas]--!--[endif]-- !--[if
!supportLineBreakNewLine]--!--[endif]-- I will continue to pursue the ethanol angle,
but I will stick to conventional methods of fermentation. For instance, I
will explore the naturally occurring sugar plants. A friend came b
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Hi Brian, Why not use the cellulose and convert it to methane using anerobic fermentation. The residue is fertilizer and the products are CO2 and methane gas. One glucose molecule gives you 3 parts methane and 3 parts(molecules) CO2. Burn the methane directly in the generator. Separating the methane from co2 should not be too difficult since CO2 is water soluble and methane is not. Cow dung has all the appropriate enzymes for the breakdown and its cheap. Hal --- Brian Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Thank you Tom, Robert, andeveryone for the fantastic feedback. I received an email from myDad, the retired chemist. He suggests we move away from the idea ofde-polymerizing cellulose as it seems out of our reach financially andtechnologically. I am happy to let the process of mycelium-rotto the fungi folks and let them see whatthey can do with it. Dad said he could find no serious research intocellulosebreakdown by any of his friends at the university. Without the help oftheseacademics, he believes we can not continue on our own. I told him wewouldcontinue to knock it around at the Biofuels email list. I will continue to pursue theethanol angle, but I will stick to conventional methods offermentation.For instance, I will explore the naturally occurring sugar plants. Afriendcame by the other day with wine made from prickly pears. Very potentdrink withall the flavor a wine enthusiast can wish for. I will search for morelocallyavailable, naturally occurring, sugary feedstock to get my experimentsgoing withfermentation. My next research project willbe steam power. With more great info found through thevast wealth of knowledge at theJourney to Forever web site, I think it makes a lot of sense to burnthe readily available waste wood asopposed to breaking it down in order to ferment it. I realize that thesmoke isgoing to be a problem, so I am hoping with experience I gainedbuildingseveral wood burning heat stoves I can build an efficientfire box. Its weird, but the morningprocess around here is similar to the steam engine. As I work on mydailynewsletter, ideas are slow to build up, gain momentum, albeit sloppyandsluggish, then the whistle blows, and I finally figure out what I wantto writeabout. Then I have to read what I already have, edit out the erroneousfiller that got me focused in the first place, and then I really getgoing,full steam ahead. I was talkingwith my older brother last night. I attempted to inspire him with mynew plansfor a steam powered ranch community. One massive, centrally located,wood firedboiler which easily converts waste wood to energy. Steam is routed toseveralhouseholds in close proximity. A nearby steam powered electricgenerator shouldbe able to furnish enough power to run the entire ranch with power leftoverduring non-peak electric use hours to sell back to the local ElectricCo-Op. Istill need to research the circuits needed to reverse power backthrough themeter. But this is well within my understanding, much more so thanchemistry. Sincerely, BrianRodgers ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
brian, i would seriously encourage you to look into a solar rather than wood power to run your boiler. i don't know the capabilities or limitations of solar boilers, but i know they're out there and your location, well, isn't that kind of like solar paradise? battery banks can provide your energy needs at night, perhaps augmented by a small biod (or wvo or ethanol) generator for any individual structure that might have higher power requirements on occasion. in fact, i expect the solar boiler itself could be augmented with wood power, either to boost total power output or to extend total generating hours. your firebox could probably be a lot smaller, and designed for quick loading in the early a.m. hours; before the solar heat starts to get too intense. you probably wouldn't need the wood power at all a lot of the time, so you'd save a lot of work as far as keeping the firebox full, maintaining your fuel supply, and so on. also, it can be more efficient to look at all the different power needs you're looking to meet. for example, odds are certain outbuildings can easily be powered with a small pv/battery or wind/battery setup. and where the power use is greater, smaller, individual solar (or wood or wood/solar) boilers might be more efficient. using the hot water to heat your home at night is more efficient this way as well. not to mention wind turbines. there a plethora of DIY wind turbine projects to be found on the web. it's surprising how easy they are. one or two people could fabricate and install a pretty powerful one as a weekend project. you can also make the project much lower-impact if you wanted, since a good deal of the work consists of small tasks that can be done individually whenever you have a spare moment or two. my main point is, to really try and go non-carbon. the alternatives are there and totally viable. you can be no less energy-independent than with wood or biofuels, and still generate excess capacity. it might be a little more work up front, but in the long run should require much less. on another note, prickly pear fruit is extremely nutritous. you're better off eating it than converting it. -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Brian Rodgers wrote: Thank you for your concern. You're welcome! I think I have a better grasp of your aptitude at this point. Even if you ARE comfortable with boilers, I suggest you join a Live Steam group and spend some time with people, like you, who understand machines. Skip Goebel, who lives in Missouri, is probably the most knowledgeable person I'm aware of when it comes to steam, but he's HAD IT with people who are interested in renewable energy. (Fruitcakes and dreamers-- people like me!) His equipment is up for sale right now, but don't talk to him unless you have money and the willingness to spend it! http://www.sensiblesteam.net/ He's got complete systems he's trying to unload that range in price from $5 000 all the way up to $25 000. The thrust of my research here has been to find a way to use small diameter trees. These are choking the forests in the Southwest United States and creating a wildfire problem. I'm from the Southwest, and I know exactly what you're talking about. Wood fired steam power represents an excellent way to cogenerate, IF you can use all that extra heat. The 480 watt system I built with my students burned about 5 1 / 2 kilos of wood every HOUR. This would solve your small diameter tree problem in a hurry, especially since most of the timber growing in the Southwest consists of lightweight pine and fir species. However, it would also create a huge amount of waste heat. This is where the integration of distillation for fuel, mash cooking, AFEX cellulose pretreatment and other heat intensive processes for ethanol production dovetail nicely into a well designed system. Most people that live in what is now called the ‘forest interface’ were warned to thin the tress around homes. Of course they don’t want to do this because they think it would defeat their main purpose of living in the forest. Disaster will befall anyone who does not take care to reduce the fuel load on their property in fire prone areas. When I lived in the dry interior of British Columbia, my neighbors didn't understand why I took the time to keep wild grasses cut short around my home. They scratched their heads when I collected dead fall. Three years ago, however, when wildfire swept through the Okanagan region, only those properties with a defensible perimeter and secure water storage survived. What we now have is hyper-wildfire conditions with all that fuel on the ground! Sigh . . . I've seen all of this before . . . robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Hi Brian, You have another option with steam. It will break down on its ownhemicelluloses under pressure. And if a catalyst is present celluloses also, in yields depending on amounts present. I think you could use acids or alkalis as catalysts. You could use undigested lignin as boiler fuel. Boilers are 'the workhorses' of industry aren't they. If you have lots of wood to be culled why not change it to electric power into the grid. Just a thought. Cheers.Brian Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okally Dokally. Thank you for your concern.Twenty years ago part of my job at the local movie theatre was keeping all the machines in operation. This included maintaining an old natural gas boiler down in the dark nasty basement. This old dinosaur had been converted from coal to oil and then to natural gas during its roughly one hundred years in operation. The boiler system was a monstrosity. Feeding this beast was a four inch gas line. I was instructed by the theatre manager(my girlfriend) to flip the switch on and run. Yeah it was scary. Upon closer inspection, which I do with most machines, time permitting, I found several safety devices on the boiler. Im a natural born mechanic, not one to take everything apart, I enjoy understanding how things work using the book method. What became clear to me upon my first fact finding trip down in the dungeon, was that most of the safety devices had been bypassed. About the only circumstance which would shut this beast down was the pilot light blowing out or the water jacket bursting. The slaves as my lady called the ushers and projectionists were given good advice to run after lighting this thing. !--[if !supportEmptyParas]--!--[endif]-- I had a regular job during the week. I was fresh out of college and working at my new profession at Computerland de Santa Fe, but the theatre was mostly night work so whenever I had the time I would go over each piece of antique equipment down at the theatre. The boiler was not nearly as intricate as the 35mm carbon arc projectors, but I felt right at home in the cellar. The boiler did have a massive brick firewall all around it and was sitting down in sort of a moat as well. I would like to have seen that boiler during the coal fired days. A hopper filled the firebox from a bin which was filled first from the alley. Thats the type of automation I like to see, Old World style mechanics. I put all of the safety relays and systems back on line by the time Winter kicked in. I shudder to think of the roughly 750 people sitting above that boiler watching a movie before I gave it the once-over twice. The only system I would leave to the experts is the gas controls, although I have a basic understanding of these devices as well. Plumbing and heating companies are the only way to go when it comes to gas heaters, especially when the feed-pipe is four inches in diameter. When the switch was flipped and the relays kicked open the gas valves, that boiler would roar. !--[if !supportEmptyParas]--!--[endif]-- But anyway, I hope you dont mind that my way of thinking nowadays is to write it down. Writing helps me focus on what I want to think about. I have found that like-minded people enjoy hearing how things work from an expert mechanics point of view. Sorry I dont mean to sound arrogant. But people that truly understand machines are few and far between. I have spent my life as an outsider more interested in machines than the people around me. Now that I have matured a bit (Im over fifty) I am putting most of my attention and energy into family and friends. So, yeah boilers are right up my alley as are pretty much any machines. !--[if !supportEmptyParas]--!--[endif]-- The thrust of my research here has been to find a way to use small diameter trees. These are choking the forests in the Southwest United States and creating a wildfire problem. Arizona and New Mexico have been in the news these last few years as hundreds of thousands of acres of forest land have burned. I dont know if you heard it on the news several years ago the US Forest Service with the help of the Park Service burned the town of Los Alamos damn near to the ground. Yeah the birth place of the atom bomb is just over the Sangre de Christo Mountains. I always feel comforted that there is a 10,000 foot high mountain range separating our ranch from Los Alamos National Labs. The USFS was practicing a policy known as a controlled burn when the blaze got out of hand and burned half the homes in the town of Los Alamos, NM and thousands of acres besides. !--[if !supportEmptyParas]--!--[endif]-- For me, since I am not much of a humanitarian, the loss of homes is less important than the loss of forestland. I especially dislike that yuppies feel the need to build their expensive homes in the forest. Nobody was hurt in the Los Alamos controlled burn by the way. Most people that live in what is now called the forest interface were warned to thin the tress around homes. Of
[Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Thank you Tom, Robert, and everyone for the fantastic feedback. I received an email from my Dad, the retired chemist. He suggests we move away from the idea of de-polymerizing cellulose as it seems out of our reach financially and technologically. I am happy to let the process of mycelium-rot to the fungi folks and let them see what they can do with it. Dad said he could find no serious research into cellulose breakdown by any of his friends at the university. Without the help of these academics, he believes we can not continue on our own. I told him we would continue to knock it around at the Biofuels email list. I will continue to pursue the ethanol angle, but I will stick to conventional methods of fermentation. For instance, I will explore the naturally occurring sugar plants. A friend came by the other day with wine made from prickly pears. Very potent drink with all the flavor a wine enthusiast can wish for. I will search for more locally available, naturally occurring, sugary feedstock to get my experiments going with fermentation. My next research project will be steam power. With more great info found through the vast wealth of knowledge at the Journey to Forever web site, I think it makes a lot of sense to burn the readily available waste wood as opposed to breaking it down in order to ferment it. I realize that the smoke is going to be a problem, so I am hoping with experience I gained building several wood burning heat stoves I can build an efficient fire box. Its weird, but the morning process around here is similar to the steam engine. As I work on my daily newsletter, ideas are slow to build up, gain momentum, albeit sloppy and sluggish, then the whistle blows, and I finally figure out what I want to write about. Then I have to read what I already have, edit out the erroneous filler that got me focused in the first place, and then I really get going, full steam ahead. I was talking with my older brother last night. I attempted to inspire him with my new plans for a steam powered ranch community. One massive, centrally located, wood fired boiler which easily converts waste wood to energy. Steam is routed to several households in close proximity. A nearby steam powered electric generator should be able to furnish enough power to run the entire ranch with power left over during non-peak electric use hours to sell back to the local Electric Co-Op. I still need to research the circuits needed to reverse power back through the meter. But this is well within my understanding, much more so than chemistry. Sincerely, Brian Rodgers ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Brian Rodgers wrote: My next research project will be steam power. Don't mess with steam unless you really know what you're doing. Hook up with local steam enthusiasts and learn EVERYTHING you can before putting yourself at risk. Boiler certification is mandated most everywhere for very good reason. Having written that, many years ago I built a monotube steam generator with my students. It was terribly inefficient. A good diesel gen set will be far more reliable, safe and efficient. I don't want to discourage you. I just want you to be careful. Steam is not a toy! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
