Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
, sulphuric acid and hydrochloric acid can all be safely used for separation and the salts used without adverse effects on compost, soil or plant life. If you're using NaOH as the catalyst, decrease the proportion of separated salts to other compost materials. Best Keith Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
I noticed they kept the box - returns? ;-) Keith Addison wrote: Yeah, I mean, the guys still alive. Lets not biodegrade him yet. It said on the box the stork brought that I'm 100% biodegradeable, but maybe it just meant the box. The family said the stork was good though, but they didn't like the trimmings it came with (me). On 6/1/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith I think bio-degrading Keith is a bit harsh. I believe if you just have a word with him that will suffice. Well I don't really mind, better than the glue factory, but I'll put a serious hex on anyone who uses me to push up tulips, I hate tulips. I guess deadly nightshades would be okay. Keith Appal Energy wrote: Well..., I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith, even pig iron and Exxon Valdez dropping. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Besides, he's pretty skinny.The weight to yield ratio with Keith is going to be lousy. Keith Addison wrote: I'd like to try some heat-assisted catalytic reformation of Keith -- if for no other reason than the irony of a biofuels list owner being made into biodiesel. That's not the way it works here John, we always do test batches with new members first. You express an interest so I take it you're volunteering? A couple of months here already, but you won't have started oxidising yet, it should be okay. We'll try cataleptic reformation first, it's hell when the test-batch struggles. Best Keith -John On Jun 1, 2006, at 4:47 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote: Yeah, I mean, the guys still alive. Lets not biodegrade him yet. On 6/1/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith I think bio-degrading Keith is a bit harsh. I believe if you just have a word with him that will suffice. Appal Energy wrote: Well..., I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith, even pig iron and Exxon Valdez dropping. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Thanks guys. (BTW i havent stopped by infopop since last time, i read up on some of the equipment they were using, and it was totally non-viable and expensive. way beyond anything i would ever need or want.) - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Hi Jason i didnt explain my situation as thouroghly as i probably should have. this is my problem- I live in an apartment, i cannot store large containers of chemicals because i have no outbuildings, and the management company would not be happy with me if i brought it in the house. also, i do not have a supplier of phosphoric acid that sells anything less than buckets ( buckets at best, most sell only bulk drums) and the majority of these i have found do not sell ANY to private buyers, only companies. i know vinegar can be made privately, that is why i asked, and muriatic acid can be had in gallon bottles from the hardware store. i am not trying to refine byproducts, i just want mostly clean glycerine to use in compost, and if i can use, compost, or sell whats left, all the better. if i cant realistically, properly get rid of it, ill go back to the books and try again. as we all know, flexibility is key. Flexi-compost. No problem, go ahead with HCl. You can use both the separated crude glycerin and the salts in the compost, and burn the FFA. KCl is fine as long as you compost it first. Don't worry about the phosphorus, it won't be missed. See my other posts and the JtF links I posted. Whatever they might do or not do at Infopop and so on doesn't matter a lot. Best Keith jason - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Isn't KCl what lethal injections are made of?? J Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.0/353 - Release Date: 5/31/2006
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Joe Street wrote: Isn't KCl what lethal injections are made of?? yes, too much (or too little) potassium and your dead. J Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. Tom, I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. The methanol fraction is toxic and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. Tom, I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. I also think I've composted it, and I'd definitely know. The methanol fraction is toxic It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. ... Methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions (with and without oxygen) in a wide variety of conditions. Generally 80% of methanol in sewage systems is biodegraded within 5 days. Methanol is a normal growth substrate for many soil microorganisms, which completely degrade methanol to carbon dioxide and water. Methanol is of low toxicity to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it is not bioaccumulated. (It's toxic mainly to humans and monkeys.) Environmental effects due to exposure to methanol are unlikely. Unless released in high concentrations, methanol would not be expected to persist or bioaccumulate in the environment. Low levels of release would not be expected to result in adverse environmental effects. From More about methanol (with refs): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. But Tom is finding values in the uses that are well exceeding the price of the phosphoric acid needed for separation, including enhanced composting. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Potassium is harmful in excess. There are no chemicals involved in the biodiesel processes we all use that are toxic to soil or plant life. Separated FFA is a contact weed-killer but once composted it will be benign, as with all the others, and composting also prevents any potential excess problems, or well within reason anyway. Chemical salts should not be added direct to the soil anyway, if you have them always add them via the compost. Phosphoric acid, sulphuric acid and hydrochloric acid can all be safely used for separation and the salts used without adverse effects on compost, soil or plant life. If you're using NaOH as the catalyst, decrease the proportion of separated salts to other compost materials. Best Keith Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Also what low sodium table salt is made of I believe. On 6/1/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't KCl what lethal injections are made of?? J Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Hi Keith; What about in the case of vermicomposting? Any advice on putting a little cocktail in there? Will it harm the worms? Joe Keith Addison wrote: Snip It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. snip It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Hi Keith; What about in the case of vermicomposting? Any advice on putting a little cocktail in there? Will it harm the worms? Hi Joe I was the bad guy here a few years ago after I reported murdering some red worms that way. :-( But lots of things will kill worms if you feed it to them in the wrong way. Try making a worm box/bin on the ground, say 2ft square (60cm), with the bare soil as the floor. Give it a sloping lid so the rain runs off (and runs away from the bin). Start off with a couple of thousand worms (1kg) or so in some sort of suitable bedding (see Compost Vermicomposting at JtF). Put the bedding on the soil, 3-4 deep (8-10cm). Water the soil floor first and make sure the bedding is wet enough. Add whatever, kitchen wastes, garden wastes and so on, livestock manure. Mixed is better. Add about 1kg a day at first, you can increase it later (up to a point) when there are more worms. The worms have a strong effect on the surrounding microlife in the wastes, while the soil beneath and its soil life act as a buffer. If you put another bin right next to the worm bin and added the same bedding and the same wastes day by day but without any worms, it takes a different course (different smell too). Decaying wastes from the wormless bin can be toxic to worms, though the same wastes in the wormbin don't harm them. A wormbin that's not on a soil base is less forgiving, I think you could add some glyc cocktail to the feed in the wormbin this way - same as with compost, a little at a time along with other mixed stuff. I'd like to know whether adding diluted crude glycerine separated from the cocktail to wormfeed this way might have similar effects to those Tom's been getting with thermophilic compost, very interesting. I'm not set up for that right now, I'll have to breed up some extra worms first. Best Keith Joe Keith Addison wrote: Snip It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. snip It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
methanol to carbon dioxide and water. Methanol is of low toxicity to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it is not bioaccumulated. (It's toxic mainly to humans and monkeys.) Environmental effects due to exposure to methanol are unlikely. Unless released in high concentrations, methanol would not be expected to persist or bioaccumulate in the environment. Low levels of release would not be expected to result in adverse environmental effects. From More about methanol (with refs): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. But Tom is finding values in the uses that are well exceeding the price of the phosphoric acid needed for separation, including enhanced composting. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Potassium is harmful in excess. There are no chemicals involved in the biodiesel processes we all use that are toxic to soil or plant life. Separated FFA is a contact weed-killer but once composted it will be benign, as with all the others, and composting also prevents any potential excess problems, or well within reason anyway. Chemical salts should not be added direct to the soil anyway, if you have them always add them via the compost. Phosphoric acid, sulphuric acid and hydrochloric acid can all be safely used for separation and the salts used without adverse effects on compost, soil or plant life. If you're using NaOH as the catalyst, decrease the proportion of separated salts to other compost materials. Best Keith Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
I'm currently in rehab for my glycerine cocktail problem. No one should go w/o treatment. If you have a glycerine problem, the only thing you should be concerned with is getting help *now*! Appal Energy wrote: Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. Tom, I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. The methanol fraction is toxic and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Hey Redler!! Nice to see you have taken the first step!On 6/1/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm currently in rehab for my glycerine cocktail problem.No oneshould go w/o treatment. If you have a glycerine problem, the only thing you should be concernedwith is getting help *now*!Appal Energy wrote:Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH.Tom,I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. The methanol fraction is toxic and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. Jason Katie,At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils.Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Todd SwearingenJason Katie wrote:i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final productin splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the sameas far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and totalelectrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for foodpreparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproductor should i keep looking?- Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questionsJason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I thinkthis is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH.I do separate the glycerine because I produce quitea bit of BD thesedays. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo ofcaustic, of which70%,by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like tocontrol how much is added to my garden which has done just fine onpre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses forthe other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid)before I was able to locate phosphoric.I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitateout.Ex:Hydrochloric Acid+ Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and waterHCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt)+ H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out?The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on topandthe crude glycerine (+most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer.The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os.They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way ofsoilnutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ...notonly a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten.KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate.valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. Thedifference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail.Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the saltproduced would have more value.***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in waterandadd it to my compost piles. It has value as in...can be put to gooduse. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of asubjectthat is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others havecalled waste productsis akin to the feeling I get when I fill thetank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom- Original Message -From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questionswhat other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to cleanglycerine for compost? i have been reading for three
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
My name in Pinkler. -Mike Fred Finch wrote: Hey Redler!! Nice to see you have taken the first step! On 6/1/06, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm currently in rehab for my glycerine cocktail problem. No one should go w/o treatment. If you have a glycerine problem, the only thing you should be concerned with is getting help *now*! Appal Energy wrote: Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. Tom, I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. The methanol fraction is toxic and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Ok Keith; Thanks for the advice. I didn't realize vermicomposting was on JtF but I'll check it out. I was planning on doing it indoors due to the cold winters here. I understand it doesn't smell if you do it right. Now that I've got the house all to myself, I'm hoping to do something unobtriusive under the counter in my kitchen:) ahh the FREEDOM! Cheers Joe Keith Addison wrote: Hi Keith; What about in the case of vermicomposting? Any advice on putting a little cocktail in there? Will it harm the worms? Hi Joe I was the bad guy here a few years ago after I reported murdering some red worms that way. :-( But lots of things will kill worms if you feed it to them in the wrong way. Try making a worm box/bin on the ground, say 2ft square (60cm), with the bare soil as the floor. Give it a sloping lid so the rain runs off (and runs away from the bin). Start off with a couple of thousand worms (1kg) or so in some sort of suitable bedding (see Compost Vermicomposting at JtF). Put the bedding on the soil, 3-4 deep (8-10cm). Water the soil floor first and make sure the bedding is wet enough. Add whatever, kitchen wastes, garden wastes and so on, livestock manure. Mixed is better. Add about 1kg a day at first, you can increase it later (up to a point) when there are more worms. The worms have a strong effect on the surrounding microlife in the wastes, while the soil beneath and its soil life act as a buffer. If you put another bin right next to the worm bin and added the same bedding and the same wastes day by day but without any worms, it takes a different course (different smell too). Decaying wastes from the wormless bin can be toxic to worms, though the same wastes in the wormbin don't harm them. A wormbin that's not on a soil base is less forgiving, I think you could add some glyc cocktail to the feed in the wormbin this way - same as with compost, a little at a time along with other mixed stuff. I'd like to know whether adding diluted crude glycerine separated from the cocktail to wormfeed this way might have similar effects to those Tom's been getting with thermophilic compost, very interesting. I'm not set up for that right now, I'll have to breed up some extra worms first. Best Keith Joe Keith Addison wrote: Snip It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. snip It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Methanol make you go blind, I suppose the worms wouldn't mind. Ken --- Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Keith; What about in the case of vermicomposting? Any advice on putting a little cocktail in there? Will it harm the worms? Joe Keith Addison wrote: Snip It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. snip It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
yes, but i was listing the USEFUL properties of KCl. as far as comparative toxcicity goes, you could use table salt for lethal injections as well, only in slightly larger amounts. LI uses are not applicable to our needs, so i did not mention it. sorry to confuse. jason - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:57 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Isn't KCl what lethal injections are made of?? J Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
using NaOH as the catalyst, decrease the proportion of separated salts to other compost materials. Best Keith Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
i didnt explain my situation as thouroghly as i probably should have. this is my problem- I live in an apartment, i cannot store large containers of chemicals because i have no outbuildings, and the management company would not be happy with me if i brought it in the house. also, i do not have a supplier of phosphoric acid that sells anything less than buckets ( buckets at best, most sell only bulk drums) and the majority of these i have found do not sell ANY to private buyers, only companies. i know vinegar can be made privately, that is why i asked, and muriatic acid can be had in gallon bottles from the hardware store. i am not trying to refine byproducts, i just want mostly clean glycerine to use in compost, and if i can use, compost, or sell whats left, all the better. if i cant realistically, properly get rid of it, ill go back to the books and try again. as we all know, flexibility is key. jason - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Ok Keith; Thanks for the advice. I didn't realize vermicomposting was on JtF but I'll check it out. I was planning on doing it indoors due to the cold winters here. They're supposed to prefer about 25 deg C (77F) but -10C doesn't seem to stop them (14F), maybe they get the composting micro-bugs in the wastes to warm it up a bit. The very edge of the wastes gets icy but not further in. I understand it doesn't smell if you do it right. Compost doesn't either, just a bit earthy maybe. You might get fruit flies with the worms though. Not too wet helps, but not too dry either. Now that I've got the house all to myself, I'm hoping to do something unobtriusive under the counter in my kitchen:) ahh the FREEDOM! :-) That works well. Lots of how-to stuff at JtF. We've got a really good system for worms and kitchen wastes, it's a definite improvement on any of the bins you can buy. It took me 20 years to figure that out. I want to spend a bit more time using it first, I'll probably upload the plans after the summer. Don't wait for that though, go right ahead, a box under the sink works well. I've done that in a small 19th floor flat with no balcony and no access to any kind of garden, very easy to do. Check out the how-to's. Lumbricus rubellas or Eisenia foetida. Enjoy all that freedom, when it gets lonely you can sing to the worms. (Whence the other occupants?) Best Keith Cheers Joe Keith Addison wrote: Hi Keith; What about in the case of vermicomposting? Any advice on putting a little cocktail in there? Will it harm the worms? Hi Joe I was the bad guy here a few years ago after I reported murdering some red worms that way. :-( But lots of things will kill worms if you feed it to them in the wrong way. Try making a worm box/bin on the ground, say 2ft square (60cm), with the bare soil as the floor. Give it a sloping lid so the rain runs off (and runs away from the bin). Start off with a couple of thousand worms (1kg) or so in some sort of suitable bedding (see Compost Vermicomposting at JtF). Put the bedding on the soil, 3-4 deep (8-10cm). Water the soil floor first and make sure the bedding is wet enough. Add whatever, kitchen wastes, garden wastes and so on, livestock manure. Mixed is better. Add about 1kg a day at first, you can increase it later (up to a point) when there are more worms. The worms have a strong effect on the surrounding microlife in the wastes, while the soil beneath and its soil life act as a buffer. If you put another bin right next to the worm bin and added the same bedding and the same wastes day by day but without any worms, it takes a different course (different smell too). Decaying wastes from the wormless bin can be toxic to worms, though the same wastes in the wormbin don't harm them. A wormbin that's not on a soil base is less forgiving, I think you could add some glyc cocktail to the feed in the wormbin this way - same as with compost, a little at a time along with other mixed stuff. I'd like to know whether adding diluted crude glycerine separated from the cocktail to wormfeed this way might have similar effects to those Tom's been getting with thermophilic compost, very interesting. I'm not set up for that right now, I'll have to breed up some extra worms first. Best Keith Joe Keith Addison wrote: Snip It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. snip It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Hi Jason i didnt explain my situation as thouroghly as i probably should have. this is my problem- I live in an apartment, i cannot store large containers of chemicals because i have no outbuildings, and the management company would not be happy with me if i brought it in the house. also, i do not have a supplier of phosphoric acid that sells anything less than buckets ( buckets at best, most sell only bulk drums) and the majority of these i have found do not sell ANY to private buyers, only companies. i know vinegar can be made privately, that is why i asked, and muriatic acid can be had in gallon bottles from the hardware store. i am not trying to refine byproducts, i just want mostly clean glycerine to use in compost, and if i can use, compost, or sell whats left, all the better. if i cant realistically, properly get rid of it, ill go back to the books and try again. as we all know, flexibility is key. Flexi-compost. No problem, go ahead with HCl. You can use both the separated crude glycerin and the salts in the compost, and burn the FFA. KCl is fine as long as you compost it first. Don't worry about the phosphorus, it won't be missed. See my other posts and the JtF links I posted. Whatever they might do or not do at Infopop and so on doesn't matter a lot. Best Keith jason - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
I'd like to try some heat-assisted catalytic reformation of Keith -- if for no other reason than the irony of a biofuels list owner being made into biodiesel. That's not the way it works here John, we always do test batches with new members first. You express an interest so I take it you're volunteering? A couple of months here already, but you won't have started oxidising yet, it should be okay. We'll try cataleptic reformation first, it's hell when the test-batch struggles. Best Keith -John On Jun 1, 2006, at 4:47 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote: Yeah, I mean, the guys still alive. Lets not biodegrade him yet. On 6/1/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith I think bio-degrading Keith is a bit harsh. I believe if you just have a word with him that will suffice. Appal Energy wrote: Well..., I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith, even pig iron and Exxon Valdez dropping. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Yeah, I mean, the guys still alive. Lets not biodegrade him yet. It said on the box the stork brought that I'm 100% biodegradeable, but maybe it just meant the box. The family said the stork was good though, but they didn't like the trimmings it came with (me). On 6/1/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith I think bio-degrading Keith is a bit harsh. I believe if you just have a word with him that will suffice. Well I don't really mind, better than the glue factory, but I'll put a serious hex on anyone who uses me to push up tulips, I hate tulips. I guess deadly nightshades would be okay. Keith Appal Energy wrote: Well..., I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith, even pig iron and Exxon Valdez dropping. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.0/353 - Release Date: 5/31/2006
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Hi Jason, Tom KCl is muriate of potash, it's used as a fertiliser but it kills the soil life, very harsh form of potassium. Potassium phosphate is milder and has the double benefit of adding phosphorus. Quite what happens when you put that in the soil isn't quite so simple either. Fertilisers don't fertilise the soil, they're not really fertilisers, they're just nutrients. It's an attempt to feed the plant direct instead of via the soil life, a bit like being on a drip-feed rather than eating food and letting your intestines do the job (the soil has often been described as an inside-out intestine). Fertilisers aren't worth buying. But a by-product of a separate process that contains soil and plant nutrients can be a beneficial addition to a compost pile, to make real fertiliser. As Tom is showing. You can use HCl to separate the by-product and add the salts to a compost pile with benefit, though not as much benefit as if you used phosphoric acid for separation. i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden Too much potassium is a no-no. More about that here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg47892.html [biofuels-biz] KOH vs NaOH But compost buffers everything, the margins for error are much wider when you use compost. Best Keith which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel
[Biofuel] more goofy questions
what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
