Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
I picked them off the DoD page. 1,500, 1,800, it's still a large number, and it does not include Iraqis. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: those are very conservative (not in the right-wing sense) numbers. there are already close to 1800 killed, and even mcglaughlin--hardly a liberal or a dove--repeats figures in excess of 25000 for woulded/maimed/incapacitated. -chris b. In a message dated 8/10/05 3:47:56 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the United States has suffered more than 13,000 casualties—11,500 wounded and 1,500 dead ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Mike, Don´t worry you´re not going to burst my bubble. Mid term elections are coming up. I really hope the Republicans try to pass it before those so they can get clobbered in the House. Trying it after the mid term elections offers a bit more politically cover but then they lose the house, senate and presidency together. No amount of spin is going to make the baby boom generation forget Viet Nam. Those who didn´t go, got to see it on TV and watch their friends come home messed up in some form or another. Some of them actually realize that Nixon et. al. tampered with the peace process in 1968 and extended the war by four more bloody years. Every name on The Wall after 1968 didn´t have to be there. Everyone injured after 1968 could have gone home mostly whole. I think our National Icon Mr. Kissenger was actually the architect of that deal... Even if all of the senators and congresspersons line up their own kids first (not f**king likely), nobody will willing go so Bush, Cheney and the other chickenhawks can get rich on oil. They´re not going to send the kids or grandkids into that kind of stupidity again. Can you imagine the image of police in riot gear teargassing a bunch of grandpas and grandmas. We´re not too far away from critical mass on the casualty side. 1500 dead for nothing is shameful enough. They can keep the pictures of the flag drapped caskets from view but it´s really the wounded they´re going to have the most problems with. You can pretty much calculate that half of those 11,500 have been horribly maimed or burned. Bombs and booby traps do that kind of thing. Someone is going to get their story out with words and pictures, win a Pulitzer and put an end to this incredibly, greedy stupidity. Have a little more patience. Sting sang it during the Reagan administration, ¨ The Russian´s love their children, too.¨ You think Americans don´t? I guess I'm a natural pessimist. The problem with democracy is that you get what you vote for. The other day I saw a picture of a grieving family at their soldier son's burial. Framing the scene to the right was their full-size SUV with a Power of Pride and a My son is fighting for our country (or similar) sticker on it. I wondered if the photographer did that intentionally? I think you'd be surprised at how many people just unquestionally follow the president. Most of my extended family is in the Midwest and they are completely in favor of Bush et al. What amazes me is how you can go from a cloth-coat Republican to a Neocon in 20 years. There is *no* Rebulican party anymore. Todays Democrat is a Republican from 1950. -Mike Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Tom Irwin wrote: They can keep the pictures of the flag drapped caskets from view but it´s really the wounded they´re going to have the most problems with. You can pretty much calculate that half of those 11,500 have been horribly maimed or burned. Bombs and booby traps do that kind of thing. Someone is going to get their story out with words and pictures, win a Pulitzer and put an end to this incredibly, greedy stupidity. Well, it didn't win a Pulitzer...yet. But in Dec 2004, NEJM already ran a photo essay and noted surgeron/writer Atul Gawande wrote an *excellent* essay to go with it. And the editors of the NEJM decided to make the content available free to everyone. Essay by Gawande http://content.nejm.org/cgi/reprint/351/24/2471.pdf Photos (WARNING - some of these pictures are very graphic http://content.nejm.org/cgi/reprint/351/24/2476.pdf jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: those are very conservative (not in the right-wing sense) numbers. there are already close to 1800 killed, and even mcglaughlin--hardly a liberal or a dove--repeats figures in excess of 25000 for woulded/maimed/incapacitated. Actually, as of 10 Aug 2005, the DoD numbers were: 1819 dead 7163 wounded - return to duty within 72 hrs 6714 wounded - did not return to duty within 72 hrs If McLaughlin his claiming 25,000+ he's either doing one of three things: a) using bad data b) including non-US forces c)implying the DoD is lying. Given the willingness of the Pentagon to openly contradict the Cheney and Rumsfeld spin as needed, I have enough faith in their professionalism to assume these numbers haven't been cooked. The numbers are updated every Tuesday at 10am. http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
or just using different data, or more complete data, or representing it more honestly. to suggest or imply dishonesty on the part of dod would hardly be a stretch. this is the same dod that so incredibly (intentionally?) mishandled the invasion/overthrow. the same dod that suppresses or ignores any information related to the devastating, and devastatingly lethal, impact this war has had on the people of iraq. the same dod that maintains a blackout on those oh so unflattering flag-draped casket images. -chris b. In a message dated 8/11/05 7:49:25 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If McLaughlin his claiming 25,000+ he's either doing one of three things: a) using bad data b) including non-US forces c)implying the DoD is lying. Given the willingness of the Pentagon to openly contradict the Cheney and Rumsfeld spin as needed, I have enough faith in their professionalism to assume these numbers haven't been cooked. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Hi Todd,
You are such a hairsplitter. Big government orbig corporate agribusinesses they ane now synonyms at least in the G8 world. I know your just endeavoring to be accurate.
Big Smile,
Tom Irwin
From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:57:35 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...Not necessarily.More like the big hand(s) of soybean interest(s) manipulating a set of controls to as best as possible "guarantee" that they get their research, testing and investment monies back. Forget that the monies they used are from a per bushel tax on beans, designated for use to advance the production and consumption of soy, which biodiesel does.What they want is the tax money to operate off of and then after they spend it they want it replenished.The government just went along in the processing of incorporating biodiesel as an EPA registered fuel.Then again, on the other hand, the soybean interests could have kept the Tier I II health effects studies for their use only as well as applicable only to soybean oil. But that's not how it ended up, as fuel from all oil and fat feedstocks fall under the rubric of "biodiesel."One could say that the EPA lobbied to keep the gate open a little wider than strictly soy, which in turn served the public's interest rather than specifically the special interest.Nobody is talking.Todd SwearingenTom Irwin wrote: Hi All, Do I detect the big hand of government squeezing the small business owner for corporate America here? Tom *From:* Ric Cuchetto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:50:42 -0300 *Subject:* RE: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... ASTM testing is at the end of the process. We are also struggling with taxes and licensing and posting bond related to transporting the waste veggie oil. There is quite a bit of resistance to these technologies. Truckers, renderers and petro companies do a much better job of lobbying than the grass roots folks. Even forward-thinking folks trying to build methanizers or biodiesel plants find that the insurance, licensing and certification make it difficult to justify the costs. Let's not even start with the transportation (fuel) taxes. Commercialization is a big hurdle compared to dumpster diving and making fuel for your buddies. Regards, Ric Cuchetto Northern california -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","[EMAIL PROTECTED]")> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","[EMAIL PROTECTED]")>] On Behalf Of TarynToo Sent: August 09, 2005 08:04 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","Biofuel@sustainablelists.org")> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... Hi Mike, Can you (or others) expand on this please? How much of a fortune? I've been searching for info on the tax and regulatory issues of producing and selling BD on a small scale. I wouldn't mind joining or starting a co-op, but cooperatively-minded folk are thin on the ground in South Florida. Thanks, Taryn On Aug 9, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: Also, you can't set up a Biodiesel plant in the US. It's illegal to sell fuel unless you have it tested by ASTM, which costs a fortune. You can brew your own or as part of a coop. -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","Biofuel@sustainablelists.org")> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","Biofuel@sustainablelists.org")> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.or
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Tom, Government is business. But not necessarily or precisely going about the same business of any specific special interest businesses. More to the tune of going about the business of all business. How many times have you found yourself in the middle of a Freudian slip, such as In this company (country)...? Think about it. The structure is precisely the same, with labor, middle and upper level management and the occassional stock holder's meeting (elections). In the interim, seldom does management change anything to the liking or needs of labor unless mandatory to prevent a serious disruption of production flow. Even then, as in the case of oil, they hold out to the last possible moment rather than seizing available opportunities. Call it poor leadership. Call it an attempt to maximize current infrastructure and investment dollar. Call it whatever you wish. But government is business, with one of its goals to insure its own existance to the best of its capabilities. Todd Swearingen The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd, You are such a hairsplitter. Big government or big corporate agribusinesses they ane now synonyms at least in the G8 world. I know your just endeavoring to be accurate. Big Smile, Tom Irwin *From:* Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:57:35 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... Not necessarily. More like the big hand(s) of soybean interest(s) manipulating a set of controls to as best as possible guarantee that they get their research, testing and investment monies back. Forget that the monies they used are from a per bushel tax on beans, designated for use to advance the production and consumption of soy, which biodiesel does. What they want is the tax money to operate off of and then after they spend it they want it replenished. The government just went along in the processing of incorporating biodiesel as an EPA registered fuel. Then again, on the other hand, the soybean interests could have kept the Tier I II health effects studies for their use only as well as applicable only to soybean oil. But that's not how it ended up, as fuel from all oil and fat feedstocks fall under the rubric of biodiesel. One could say that the EPA lobbied to keep the gate open a little wider than strictly soy, which in turn served the public's interest rather than specifically the special interest. Nobody is talking. Todd Swearingen Tom Irwin wrote: Hi All, Do I detect the big hand of government squeezing the small business owner for corporate America here? Tom *From:* Ric Cuchetto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) *Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:50:42 -0300 *Subject:* RE: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... ASTM testing is at the end of the process. We are also struggling with taxes and licensing and posting bond related to transporting the waste veggie oil. There is quite a bit of resistance to these technologies. Truckers, renderers and petro companies do a much better job of lobbying than the grass roots folks. Even forward-thinking folks trying to build methanizers or biodiesel plants find that the insurance, licensing and certification make it difficult to justify the costs. Let's not even start with the transportation (fuel) taxes. Commercialization is a big hurdle compared to dumpster diving and making fuel for your buddies. Regards, Ric Cuchetto Northern california -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED]) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED]) ] On Behalf Of TarynToo Sent: August 09, 2005 08:04 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... Hi Mike, Can you (or others) expand on this please? How much of a fortune? I've been searching for info on the tax and regulatory issues of producing and selling BD on a small scale. I wouldn't mind joining or starting a co-op, but cooperatively-minded folk are thin on the ground in South Florida. Thanks, Taryn On Aug 9, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: Also, you can't set up
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
About $4,000 for the testing - so it only makes sense if you have a very large quantity of fuel. The equipment to test it runs around $75,000, plus someone who knows how to do it. Don't forget that you will owe federal and probably state tax on anything that passes your fuel filler - even if it is homebrew. I keep a little log for this. A coop is the way to go. -Mike TarynToo wrote: Hi Mike, Can you (or others) expand on this please? How much of a fortune? I've been searching for info on the tax and regulatory issues of producing and selling BD on a small scale. I wouldn't mind joining or starting a co-op, but cooperatively-minded folk are thin on the ground in South Florida. Thanks, Taryn On Aug 9, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: Also, you can't set up a Biodiesel plant in the US. It's illegal to sell fuel unless you have it tested by ASTM, which costs a fortune. You can brew your own or as part of a coop. -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Greetings Todd,
I agree with you almost entirely. Occassionally the elctorate gets a group of anti business folks into power that enact things like anti-trust laws to curb the worst excesses of business. This hasn't happened for a number of years but I remain the starry eyed idealist that it might happen again within my lifetime. Today it's more like rich folks disagreeing on the path the peasants should trod. Take the case of Ross Perot running for President. It seems to me he ran just cause he didn't like Bush I for some reason. I don't know what that reason was but it would be interesting to find out. Of course I don't entirely rule out the possibility, however remote, that he actually thought large federal deficits were bad for the wealthy.
Tom Irwin
From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:56:03 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...Tom,Government is business. But not necessarily or precisely going about the same business of any specific special interest businesses. More to the tune of going about the business of all business.How many times have you found yourself in the middle of a Freudian slip, such as "In this company (country)...?"Think about it. The structure is precisely the same, with labor, middle and upper level "management" and the occassional "stock holder's" meeting (elections). In the interim, seldom does management change anything to the liking or needs of labor unless mandatory to prevent a serious disruption of production flow. Even then, as in the case of oil, they hold out to the last possible moment rather than seizing available opportunities.Call it poor leadership. Call it an attempt to maximize current infrastructure and investment dollar. Call it whatever you wish. But government is business, with one of its goals to insure its own existance to the best of its capabilities.Todd Swearingen"The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government."Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd, You are such a hairsplitter. Big government or big corporate agribusinesses they ane now synonyms at least in the G8 world. I know your just endeavoring to be accurate. Big Smile, Tom Irwin *From:* Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:57:35 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... Not necessarily. More like the big hand(s) of soybean interest(s) manipulating a set of controls to as best as possible "guarantee" that they get their research, testing and investment monies back. Forget that the monies they used are from a per bushel tax on beans, designated for use to advance the production and consumption of soy, which biodiesel does. What they want is the tax money to operate off of and then after they spend it they want it replenished. The government just went along in the processing of incorporating biodiesel as an EPA registered fuel. Then again, on the other hand, the soybean interests could have kept the Tier I II health effects studies for their use only as well as applicable only to soybean oil. But that's not how it ended up, as fuel from all oil and fat feedstocks fall under the rubric of "biodiesel." One could say that the EPA lobbied to keep the gate open a little wider than strictly soy, which in turn served the public's interest rather than specifically the special interest. Nobody is talking. Todd Swearingen Tom Irwin wrote: Hi All, Do I detect the big hand of government squeezing the small business owner for corporate America here? Tom *From:* Ric Cuchetto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","[EMAIL PROTECTED]")>] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","Biofuel@sustainablelists.org")> *Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:50:42 -0300 *Subject:* RE: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... ASTM testing is at the end of the process. We are also struggling with taxes and licensing and posting bond related to transporting the waste veggie oil. There is quite a bit of resistance to these technologies. Truckers, renderers and petro companies do a much better job of lobbying than the grass roots folks. Even forward-thinking folks trying to build methanizers or biodiesel plants find that the insurance, licensing and certification make it difficult to justify the costs. Let's not even start with the transportation (fuel) taxes. Commercialization is a big hurdle compared to dumpster diving and making fuel for your buddies. Regards, Ric Cuchetto Northern california -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","[EMAIL PROTECTED]")> [ma
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
That's what a lot of people don't understand. If you haven't worked in the Gov't it doesn't make much sense. I was just telling someone that the latest IRS IT fiasco is actually not a failure in the eyes of the Gov't workers - only one person got fired, the FTE's got paid and the contractors got paid. Whether or not it worked was pretty incidental to the process. The rules are: 1. Don't get fired - still pretty hard to fire someone in the US. 2. Don't make more work for anyone. 3. Don't make your boss look bad. 4. Don't get bad press. 5. Inertia is better than doing something. Inertia won't get you fired, but doing something might. 6. That's the way we've always done it. Appal Energy wrote: Tom, Government is business. But not necessarily or precisely going about the same business of any specific special interest businesses. More to the tune of going about the business of all business. How many times have you found yourself in the middle of a Freudian slip, such as In this company (country)...? Think about it. The structure is precisely the same, with labor, middle and upper level management and the occassional stock holder's meeting (elections). In the interim, seldom does management change anything to the liking or needs of labor unless mandatory to prevent a serious disruption of production flow. Even then, as in the case of oil, they hold out to the last possible moment rather than seizing available opportunities. Call it poor leadership. Call it an attempt to maximize current infrastructure and investment dollar. Call it whatever you wish. But government is business, with one of its goals to insure its own existance to the best of its capabilities. Todd Swearingen The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd, You are such a hairsplitter. Big government or big corporate agribusinesses they ane now synonyms at least in the G8 world. I know your just endeavoring to be accurate. Big Smile, Tom Irwin *From:* Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:57:35 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... Not necessarily. More like the big hand(s) of soybean interest(s) manipulating a set of controls to as best as possible guarantee that they get their research, testing and investment monies back. Forget that the monies they used are from a per bushel tax on beans, designated for use to advance the production and consumption of soy, which biodiesel does. What they want is the tax money to operate off of and then after they spend it they want it replenished. The government just went along in the processing of incorporating biodiesel as an EPA registered fuel. Then again, on the other hand, the soybean interests could have kept the Tier I II health effects studies for their use only as well as applicable only to soybean oil. But that's not how it ended up, as fuel from all oil and fat feedstocks fall under the rubric of biodiesel. One could say that the EPA lobbied to keep the gate open a little wider than strictly soy, which in turn served the public's interest rather than specifically the special interest. Nobody is talking. Todd Swearingen Tom Irwin wrote: Hi All, Do I detect the big hand of government squeezing the small business owner for corporate America here? Tom *From:* Ric Cuchetto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) *Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:50:42 -0300 *Subject:* RE: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... ASTM testing is at the end of the process. We are also struggling with taxes and licensing and posting bond related to transporting the waste veggie oil. There is quite a bit of resistance to these technologies. Truckers, renderers and petro companies do a much better job of lobbying than the grass roots folks. Even forward-thinking folks trying to build methanizers or biodiesel plants find that the insurance, licensing and certification make it difficult to justify the costs. Let's not even start with the transportation (fuel) taxes. Commercialization is a big hurdle compared to dumpster diving and making fuel for your buddies. Regards, Ric Cuchetto Northern california -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED]) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
sheesh, this is so not true. we just recently had a thread along precisely these lines. it is extremely easy for an employer to terminate an employee. the employer does not have as much lattitude with a unionized workforce, but even there it is not nearly as hard to fire someone as is commonly represented. there's some truth to the notion that, if you're part of a union it's hard to get fired, but this has more to do with accomodations that management and union leadership make with one another, than with limitations on the employer's powers. -chris b. In a message dated 8/10/05 8:41:19 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The rules are: 1. Don't get fired - still pretty hard to fire someone in the US. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Howdy Mike, Mike Weaver wrote: That's what a lot of people don't understand. If you haven't worked in the Gov't it doesn't make much sense. I think it makes sense, government service or not. It is simple self preservation. I was just telling someone that the latest IRS IT fiasco is actually not a failure in the eyes of the Gov't workers - only one person got fired, the FTE's got paid and the contractors got paid. Whether or not it worked was pretty incidental to the process. The rules are: 1. Don't get fired - still pretty hard to fire someone in the US. o really? Arkansas, as are many other states, is a right to work state, where employment is at the discretion of the employer, meaning no reason is needed to fire an employee. Certain professions such as teaching afford some protection (tenure) but all it does is require proof that one is not fullfiling the obligations of the profession. Granted, goverment service may require more hoops to jump thru to fire an employee than other employees, it is not all that hard even in goverment service. and it is a piece of cake in the private sector. 2. Don't make more work for anyone. makes sense to me. why would anyone want to make more work? If I am going to work more, shouldn't I get paid more? If an employer doesn't want to pay more why should I want to work more? 3. Don't make your boss look bad. again this is reasonable- and there is some albeit weak protection for making the boss look bad in the form of whistle blower laws. 4. Don't get bad press. 5. Inertia is better than doing something. Inertia won't get you fired, but doing something might. 6. That's the way we've always done it. your rules actually apply to all walks of life- work, marraige, etc. :) -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Doesn't sound like you have worked in Government either.and should be fired!! Most FTE's are very dedicated to doing a good job for the people served (which includes themselves, who are also taxpayers)but of course there always are those few afraid of their own shadow or who get put into positions of responsibility when they shouldn't bejust like real people in real jobs. Okay, a little over reactivebut then I think we should still have a Draft for the military in this country (or something that includes it). DB -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mike Weaver Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:41 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... That's what a lot of people don't understand. If you haven't worked in the Gov't it doesn't make much sense. I was just telling someone that the latest IRS IT fiasco is actually not a failure in the eyes of the Gov't workers - only one person got fired, the FTE's got paid and the contractors got paid. Whether or not it worked was pretty incidental to the process. The rules are: 1. Don't get fired - still pretty hard to fire someone in the US. 2. Don't make more work for anyone. 3. Don't make your boss look bad. 4. Don't get bad press. 5. Inertia is better than doing something. Inertia won't get you fired, but doing something might. 6. That's the way we've always done it. Appal Energy wrote: Tom, Government is business. But not necessarily or precisely going about the same business of any specific special interest businesses. More to the tune of going about the business of all business. How many times have you found yourself in the middle of a Freudian slip, such as In this company (country)...? Think about it. The structure is precisely the same, with labor, middle and upper level management and the occassional stock holder's meeting (elections). In the interim, seldom does management change anything to the liking or needs of labor unless mandatory to prevent a serious disruption of production flow. Even then, as in the case of oil, they hold out to the last possible moment rather than seizing available opportunities. Call it poor leadership. Call it an attempt to maximize current infrastructure and investment dollar. Call it whatever you wish. But government is business, with one of its goals to insure its own existance to the best of its capabilities. Todd Swearingen The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd, You are such a hairsplitter. Big government or big corporate agribusinesses they ane now synonyms at least in the G8 world. I know your just endeavoring to be accurate. Big Smile, Tom Irwin *From:* Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:57:35 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... Not necessarily. More like the big hand(s) of soybean interest(s) manipulating a set of controls to as best as possible guarantee that they get their research, testing and investment monies back. Forget that the monies they used are from a per bushel tax on beans, designated for use to advance the production and consumption of soy, which biodiesel does. What they want is the tax money to operate off of and then after they spend it they want it replenished. The government just went along in the processing of incorporating biodiesel as an EPA registered fuel. Then again, on the other hand, the soybean interests could have kept the Tier I II health effects studies for their use only as well as applicable only to soybean oil. But that's not how it ended up, as fuel from all oil and fat feedstocks fall under the rubric of biodiesel. One could say that the EPA lobbied to keep the gate open a little wider than strictly soy, which in turn served the public's interest rather than specifically the special interest. Nobody is talking. Todd Swearingen Tom Irwin wrote: Hi All, Do I detect the big hand of government squeezing the small business owner for corporate America here? Tom *From:* Ric Cuchetto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) *Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:50:42 -0300 *Subject:* RE: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... ASTM testing is at the end of the process. We are also struggling with taxes and licensing and posting bond related to transporting
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
I have - or did. I finally quit in frustration. I agree there are some excellent people in Government. By my guess 40% of the people did 80% of the work. It drove me nuts. And the people that did work threatened the ones who didn't! We has a GS15 whose jobs was to watch TV and instruct her assistant to send a payroll once every two weeks. Nothing else. I could see her from my desk - she never did anything. I don't think a National Service commitment would be a bad thing - especially if it were tied to financial aid. As for the draft, I think all you will have to do wait awhile and we'll have one. David M. Brockes wrote: Doesn't sound like you have worked in Government either.and should be fired!! Most FTE's are very dedicated to doing a good job for the people served (which includes themselves, who are also taxpayers)but of course there always are those few afraid of their own shadow or who get put into positions of responsibility when they shouldn't bejust like real people in real jobs. Okay, a little over reactivebut then I think we should still have a Draft for the military in this country (or something that includes it). DB -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mike Weaver Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:41 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... That's what a lot of people don't understand. If you haven't worked in the Gov't it doesn't make much sense. I was just telling someone that the latest IRS IT fiasco is actually not a failure in the eyes of the Gov't workers - only one person got fired, the FTE's got paid and the contractors got paid. Whether or not it worked was pretty incidental to the process. The rules are: 1. Don't get fired - still pretty hard to fire someone in the US. 2. Don't make more work for anyone. 3. Don't make your boss look bad. 4. Don't get bad press. 5. Inertia is better than doing something. Inertia won't get you fired, but doing something might. 6. That's the way we've always done it. Appal Energy wrote: Tom, Government is business. But not necessarily or precisely going about the same business of any specific special interest businesses. More to the tune of going about the business of all business. How many times have you found yourself in the middle of a Freudian slip, such as In this company (country)...? Think about it. The structure is precisely the same, with labor, middle and upper level management and the occassional stock holder's meeting (elections). In the interim, seldom does management change anything to the liking or needs of labor unless mandatory to prevent a serious disruption of production flow. Even then, as in the case of oil, they hold out to the last possible moment rather than seizing available opportunities. Call it poor leadership. Call it an attempt to maximize current infrastructure and investment dollar. Call it whatever you wish. But government is business, with one of its goals to insure its own existance to the best of its capabilities. Todd Swearingen The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd, You are such a hairsplitter. Big government or big corporate agribusinesses they ane now synonyms at least in the G8 world. I know your just endeavoring to be accurate. Big Smile, Tom Irwin *From:* Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:57:35 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... Not necessarily. More like the big hand(s) of soybean interest(s) manipulating a set of controls to as best as possible guarantee that they get their research, testing and investment monies back. Forget that the monies they used are from a per bushel tax on beans, designated for use to advance the production and consumption of soy, which biodiesel does. What they want is the tax money to operate off of and then after they spend it they want it replenished. The government just went along in the processing of incorporating biodiesel as an EPA registered fuel. Then again, on the other hand, the soybean interests could have kept the Tier I II health effects studies for their use only as well as applicable only to soybean oil. But that's not how it ended up, as fuel from all oil and fat feedstocks fall under the rubric of biodiesel. One could say that the EPA lobbied to keep the gate open a little wider than strictly soy, which in turn served the public's interest rather than specifically the special interest. Nobody is talking. Todd Swearingen Tom Irwin wrote: Hi All, Do I detect the big hand of government squeezing the small business owner for corporate America here? Tom
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Hi All, I think you can forget about that draft crap it just won't sell. The reserves are 25% behind on their recruitment and the army doesn't look like their going to make their yearly goals for a reason. Nobody wants to die or be maimed for oil. There are plenty of other alternatives and the kids know it.They aren't stupid. Any senator or congressman sponsoring or signing such a bill pretty much wants early retirement. Tom Irwin From: Mike Weaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:24:34 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...I have - or did. I finally quit in frustration. I agree there are some excellent people in Government. By my guess 40% of the people did 80% of the work. It drove me nuts. And the people that did work threatened the ones who didn't! We has a GS15 whose jobs was to watch TV and instruct her assistant to send a payroll once every two weeks. Nothing else. I could see her from my desk - she never did anything. I don't think a National Service commitment would be a bad thing - especially if it were tied to financial aid.As for the draft, I think all you will have to do wait awhile and we'll have one.David M. Brockes wrote:Doesn't sound like you have "worked" in Government either.and should befired!! Most FTE's are very dedicated to doing a good job for the peopleserved (which includes themselves, who are also taxpayers)but of coursethere always are those few afraid of their own shadow or who get put intopositions of responsibility when they shouldn't bejust like "real"people in "real" jobs.Okay, a little over reactivebut then I think we should still have a"Draft" for the military in this country (or something that includes it).DB-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Mike WeaverSent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:41 AMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...That's what a lot of people don't understand. If you haven't worked inthe Gov't it doesn't make much sense. I was just telling someone thatthe latest IRS IT fiasco is actually not a failure in the eyes of theGov't workers - only one person got fired, the FTE's got paid and thecontractors got paid. Whether or not it worked was pretty incidental tothe process. The rules are:1. Don't get fired - still pretty hard to fire someone in the US.2. Don't make more work for anyone.3. Don't make your boss look bad.4. Don't get bad press.5. Inertia is better than doing something. Inertia won't get youfired, but doing something might.6. That's the way we've always done it.Appal Energy wrote: Tom,Government is business. But not necessarily or precisely going aboutthe same business of any specific special interest businesses. More tothe tune of going about the business of all business.How many times have you found yourself in the middle of a Freudianslip, such as "In this company (country)...?"Think about it. The structure is precisely the same, with labor,middle and upper level "management" and the occassional "stockholder's" meeting (elections). In the interim, seldom does managementchange anything to the liking or needs of labor unless mandatory toprevent a serious disruption of production flow. Even then, as in thecase of oil, they hold out to the last possible moment rather thanseizing available opportunities.Call it poor leadership. Call it an attempt to maximize currentinfrastructure and investment dollar. Call it whatever you wish. Butgovernment is business, with one of its goals to insure its ownexistance to the best of its capabilities.Todd Swearingen"The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government."Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd,You are such a hairsplitter. Big government or big corporateagribusinesses they ane now synonyms at least in the G8 world. I knowyour just endeavoring to be accurate.Big Smile,Tom Irwin *From:* Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:57:35 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... Not necessarily. More like the big hand(s) of soybean interest(s) manipulating a set of controls to as best as possible "guarantee" that they get their research, testing and investment monies back. Forget that the monies they used are from a per bushel tax on beans, designated for use to advance the production and consumption of soy, which biodiesel does. What they want is the tax money to operate off of and then afterthey spend it they want it replenished. The government just went along in the processing of incorporating biodiesel as an EPA registered fuel. Then again, on the other hand, the soybean interests could have kept the Tier I II health effects studies for their use only as well as ap
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Draft, we don't need no stinkin' draft: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04/01/bush_twins_volunteer/ Tom Irwin wrote: Hi All, I think you can forget about that draft crap it just won't sell. The reserves are 25% behind on their recruitment and the army doesn't look like their going to make their yearly goals for a reason. Nobody wants to die or be maimed for oil. There are plenty of other alternatives and the kids know it. They aren't stupid. Any senator or congressman sponsoring or signing such a bill pretty much wants early retirement. Tom Irwin *From:* Mike Weaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:24:34 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... I have - or did. I finally quit in frustration. I agree there are some excellent people in Government. By my guess 40% of the people did 80% of the work. It drove me nuts. And the people that did work threatened the ones who didn't! We has a GS15 whose jobs was to watch TV and instruct her assistant to send a payroll once every two weeks. Nothing else. I could see her from my desk - she never did anything. I don't think a National Service commitment would be a bad thing - especially if it were tied to financial aid. As for the draft, I think all you will have to do wait awhile and we'll have one. David M. Brockes wrote: Doesn't sound like you have worked in Government either.and should be fired!! Most FTE's are very dedicated to doing a good job for the people served (which includes themselves, who are also taxpayers)but of course there always are those few afraid of their own shadow or who get put into positions of responsibility when they shouldn't bejust like real people in real jobs. Okay, a little over reactivebut then I think we should still have a Draft for the military in this country (or something that includes it). DB -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED]) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])]On Behalf Of Mike Weaver Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:41 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... That's what a lot of people don't understand. If you haven't worked in the Gov't it doesn't make much sense. I was just telling someone that the latest IRS IT fiasco is actually not a failure in the eyes of the Gov't workers - only one person got fired, the FTE's got paid and the contractors got paid. Whether or not it worked was pretty incidental to the process. The rules are: 1. Don't get fired - still pretty hard to fire someone in the US. 2. Don't make more work for anyone. 3. Don't make your boss look bad. 4. Don't get bad press. 5. Inertia is better than doing something. Inertia won't get you fired, but doing something might. 6. That's the way we've always done it. Appal Energy wrote: Tom, Government is business. But not necessarily or precisely going about the same business of any specific special interest businesses. More to the tune of going about the business of all business. How many times have you found yourself in the middle of a Freudian slip, such as In this company (country)...? Think about it. The structure is precisely the same, with labor, middle and upper level management and the occassional stock holder's meeting (elections). In the interim, seldom does management change anything to the liking or needs of labor unless mandatory to prevent a serious disruption of production flow. Even then, as in the case of oil, they hold out to the last possible moment rather than seizing available opportunities. Call it poor leadership. Call it an attempt to maximize current infrastructure and investment dollar. Call it whatever you wish. But government is business, with one of its goals to insure its own existance to the best of its capabilities. Todd Swearingen The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd, You are such a hairsplitter. Big government or big corporate agribusinesses they ane now synonyms at least in the G8 world. I know your just endeavoring to be accurate. Big Smile, Tom Irwin *From:* Appal Energy [mailto
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Tom, Uh, hate to burst your bubble, but they already are: After two years of war in Iraq, the United States has suffered more than 13,000 casualties—11,500 wounded and 1,500 dead *U.S. Readies for Draft* */Dave Eberhart, NewsMax.com/* */Friday, June 25, 2004/* Despite denials that the U.S. plans to re-institute the draft, the Pentagon has stepped up preparations for a new Selective Service System that could allow for a full-blown draft by next year. I want my SUV. Damn the cost. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi All, I think you can forget about that draft crap it just won't sell. The reserves are 25% behind on their recruitment and the army doesn't look like their going to make their yearly goals for a reason. Nobody wants to die or be maimed for oil. There are plenty of other alternatives and the kids know it. They aren't stupid. Any senator or congressman sponsoring or signing such a bill pretty much wants early retirement. Tom Irwin *From:* Mike Weaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:24:34 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... I have - or did. I finally quit in frustration. I agree there are some excellent people in Government. By my guess 40% of the people did 80% of the work. It drove me nuts. And the people that did work threatened the ones who didn't! We has a GS15 whose jobs was to watch TV and instruct her assistant to send a payroll once every two weeks. Nothing else. I could see her from my desk - she never did anything. I don't think a National Service commitment would be a bad thing - especially if it were tied to financial aid. As for the draft, I think all you will have to do wait awhile and we'll have one. David M. Brockes wrote: Doesn't sound like you have worked in Government either.and should be fired!! Most FTE's are very dedicated to doing a good job for the people served (which includes themselves, who are also taxpayers)but of course there always are those few afraid of their own shadow or who get put into positions of responsibility when they shouldn't bejust like real people in real jobs. Okay, a little over reactivebut then I think we should still have a Draft for the military in this country (or something that includes it). DB -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED]) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])]On Behalf Of Mike Weaver Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:41 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... That's what a lot of people don't understand. If you haven't worked in the Gov't it doesn't make much sense. I was just telling someone that the latest IRS IT fiasco is actually not a failure in the eyes of the Gov't workers - only one person got fired, the FTE's got paid and the contractors got paid. Whether or not it worked was pretty incidental to the process. The rules are: 1. Don't get fired - still pretty hard to fire someone in the US. 2. Don't make more work for anyone. 3. Don't make your boss look bad. 4. Don't get bad press. 5. Inertia is better than doing something. Inertia won't get you fired, but doing something might. 6. That's the way we've always done it. Appal Energy wrote: Tom, Government is business. But not necessarily or precisely going about the same business of any specific special interest businesses. More to the tune of going about the business of all business. How many times have you found yourself in the middle of a Freudian slip, such as In this company (country)...? Think about it. The structure is precisely the same, with labor, middle and upper level management and the occassional stock holder's meeting (elections). In the interim, seldom does management change anything to the liking or needs of labor unless mandatory to prevent a serious disruption of production flow. Even then, as in the case of oil, they hold out to the last possible moment rather than seizing available opportunities. Call it poor leadership. Call it an attempt to maximize current infrastructure and investment dollar. Call it whatever you wish. But government is business, with one of its goals to insure its own existance to the best of its capabilities. Todd Swearingen The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
I think you miss the point Tom. It's not anti-trust that is the predominant problem with concerted business. And anti-trust is almost the least of concerns when you look at the jigsaw puzzle in its conglomerate whole. As for remaining starry eyed? If that's what you want, just keep a handy supply of bathtub blotter around and all will hopefully be alright with the world. On the other hand, if it's change you want, then you are required to register yourself as a change agent. There is no middle ground, more or less. As for Perot? He saw business and government for what each are worth, as well as how both can be virtually worthless if sound financial practices aren't adhered to. Whether or not he had personal disdain for another person or politician is and was beside the point. As for large budget deficits being bad for the wealthy? I guess it all depends if how you calculate wealth, Tom - whether you calculate it on quarterly returns, balance sheets, hard currency or credit rating. The wealthy have theirs by primarily one means - the mainstream middle and lesser class. Diminish the cash cow in large or small fashion and eventually the wealthy are no longer what they thought, hoped or expected. As well, when the cash cow has been bled dry, the bones are bleached, and the national debt remains in the balance, just what is it that you expect the wealthy to do? What is it you expect government to do? Let me guess. The government will pick their nose and the wealthy will continue to eat bon bons while the country is forclosed upon by foreign lien holders. Think again Tom. When the cucumber resembles nothing more than a shriveled pickle of itself, the last standing will be bilked for all their worth as a result of past failures and long lack of insight. Me thinks you're still living in a drive-thru, auto-rewind, lecture-room mentality, not one that finds ways to envisage eventual reality without necessarily experiencing it. Todd Swearingen Tom Irwin wrote: Greetings Todd, I agree with you almost entirely. Occassionally the elctorate gets a group of anti business folks into power that enact things like anti-trust laws to curb the worst excesses of business. This hasn't happened for a number of years but I remain the starry eyed idealist that it might happen again within my lifetime. Today it's more like rich folks disagreeing on the path the peasants should trod. Take the case of Ross Perot running for President. It seems to me he ran just cause he didn't like Bush I for some reason. I don't know what that reason was but it would be interesting to find out. Of course I don't entirely rule out the possibility, however remote, that he actually thought large federal deficits were bad for the wealthy. Tom Irwin *From:* Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:56:03 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... Tom, Government is business. But not necessarily or precisely going about the same business of any specific special interest businesses. More to the tune of going about the business of all business. How many times have you found yourself in the middle of a Freudian slip, such as In this company (country)...? Think about it. The structure is precisely the same, with labor, middle and upper level management and the occassional stock holder's meeting (elections). In the interim, seldom does management change anything to the liking or needs of labor unless mandatory to prevent a serious disruption of production flow. Even then, as in the case of oil, they hold out to the last possible moment rather than seizing available opportunities. Call it poor leadership. Call it an attempt to maximize current infrastructure and investment dollar. Call it whatever you wish. But government is business, with one of its goals to insure its own existance to the best of its capabilities. Todd Swearingen The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd, You are such a hairsplitter. Big government or big corporate agribusinesses they ane now synonyms at least in the G8 world. I know your just endeavoring to be accurate. Big Smile, Tom Irwin *From:* Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) *Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:57:35 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... Not necessarily. More like the big hand(s) of soybean
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Hi Mike,
Don´t worry you´re not going to burst my bubble. Mid term elections are coming up. I really hope the Republicans try to pass it before those so they can get clobbered in the House.Trying it after the mid term electionsoffers a bit more politically cover but then they lose the house, senate and presidency together. No amount of spin is going to make the baby boom generation forget Viet Nam. Those who didn´t go, got to see it on TV and watch their friends come home messed up in some form or another. Some of them actually realize that Nixon et. al. tampered with the peace process in 1968 and extended the war by four more bloody years. Every name on The Wall after 1968 didn´t have to be there. Everyone injured after 1968 could have gone home mostly whole. Even if all of the senators and congresspersons line up their own kids first (not f**king likely), nobody will willing gosoBush, Cheney and the other chickenhawkscan get rich on oil. They´re not going to send the kids or grandkids into that kind of stupidity again. Can you imagine the image of police in riot gear teargassing a bunch of grandpas and grandmas.We´re not too far away from critical mass on the casualty side. 1500 dead for nothing is shameful enough. They can keep the pictures of the flag drapped caskets from view but it´s really the wounded they´re going to have the most problems with. You can pretty muchcalculate that half of those 11,500 have been horribly maimed or burned. Bombs and booby traps do that kind of thing. Someone is going to get their story out with words and pictures, win a Pulitzer and put an end to this incredibly, greedy stupidity. Have a little more patience. Sting sang it during the Reagan administration, ¨The Russian´s love their children, too.¨ You think Americans don´t?
Tom Irwin
From: Mike Weaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:46:44 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...Tom,Uh, hate to burst your bubble, but they already are: After two years of war in Iraq, the United States has suffered more than13,000 casualties—11,500 wounded and 1,500 dead*U.S. Readies for Draft**/Dave Eberhart, NewsMax.com/**/Friday, June 25, 2004/* Despite denials that the U.S. plans to re-institute the draft, the Pentagon has stepped up preparations for a new Selective Service System that could allow for a full-blown draft by next year.I want my SUV. Damn the cost.Tom Irwin wrote: Hi All, I think you can forget about that draft crap it just won't sell. The reserves are 25% behind on their recruitment and the army doesn't look like their going to make their yearly goals for a reason. Nobody wants to die or be maimed for oil. There are plenty of other alternatives and the kids know it. They aren't stupid. Any senator or congressman sponsoring or signing such a bill pretty much wants early retirement. Tom Irwin *From:* Mike Weaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:24:34 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... I have - or did. I finally quit in frustration. I agree there are some excellent people in Government. By my guess 40% of the people did 80% of the work. It drove me nuts. And the people that did work threatened the ones who didn't! We has a GS15 whose jobs was to watch TV and instruct her assistant to send a payroll once every two weeks. Nothing else. I could see her from my desk - she never did anything. I don't think a National Service commitment would be a bad thing - especially if it were tied to financial aid. As for the draft, I think all you will have to do wait awhile and we'll have one. David M. Brockes wrote: Doesn't sound like you have "worked" in Government either.and should be fired!! Most FTE's are very dedicated to doing a good job for the people served (which includes themselves, who are also taxpayers)but of course there always are those few afraid of their own shadow or who get put into positions of responsibility when they shouldn't bejust like "real" people in "real" jobs. Okay, a little over reactivebut then I think we should still have a "Draft" for the military in this country (or something that includes it). DB -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","[EMAIL PROTECTED]")> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","[EMAIL PROTECTED]")>]On Behalf Of Mike Weaver Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:41 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","Biofuel@sustainablelists.org")> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... That's what a lot of people don't understand. If you haven't worked in the Gov't it doesn't make much sense. I was just telling someone that the
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
those are very conservative (not in the right-wing sense) numbers. there are already close to 1800 killed, and even mcglaughlin--hardly a liberal or a dove--repeats figures in excess of 25000 for woulded/maimed/incapacitated. -chris b. In a message dated 8/10/05 3:47:56 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the United States has suffered more than 13,000 casualties—11,500 wounded and 1,500 dead ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Hi Mike, Can you (or others) expand on this please? How much of a fortune? I've been searching for info on the tax and regulatory issues of producing and selling BD on a small scale. I wouldn't mind joining or starting a co-op, but cooperatively-minded folk are thin on the ground in South Florida. Thanks, Taryn On Aug 9, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: Also, you can't set up a Biodiesel plant in the US. It's illegal to sell fuel unless you have it tested by ASTM, which costs a fortune. You can brew your own or as part of a coop. -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
ASTM testing is at the end of the process. We are also struggling with taxes and licensing and posting bond related to transporting the waste veggie oil. There is quite a bit of resistance to these technologies. Truckers, renderers and petro companies do a much better job of lobbying than the grass roots folks. Even forward-thinking folks trying to build methanizers or biodiesel plants find that the insurance, licensing and certification make it difficult to justify the costs. Let's not even start with the transportation (fuel) taxes. Commercialization is a big hurdle compared to dumpster diving and making fuel for your buddies. Regards, Ric Cuchetto Northern california -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of TarynToo Sent: August 09, 2005 08:04 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... Hi Mike, Can you (or others) expand on this please? How much of a fortune? I've been searching for info on the tax and regulatory issues of producing and selling BD on a small scale. I wouldn't mind joining or starting a co-op, but cooperatively-minded folk are thin on the ground in South Florida. Thanks, Taryn On Aug 9, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: Also, you can't set up a Biodiesel plant in the US. It's illegal to sell fuel unless you have it tested by ASTM, which costs a fortune. You can brew your own or as part of a coop. -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Hi All, Do I detect the big hand of government squeezing the small business owner for corporate America here? Tom From: Ric Cuchetto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:50:42 -0300Subject: RE: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...ASTM testing is at the end of the process. We are also struggling withtaxes and licensing and posting bond related to transporting the wasteveggie oil. There is quite a bit of resistance to these technologies.Truckers, renderers and petro companies do a much better job of lobbyingthan the grass roots folks. Even forward-thinking folks trying to buildmethanizers or biodiesel plants find that the insurance, licensing andcertification make it difficult to justify the costs. Let's not even startwith the transportation (fuel) taxes.Commercialization is a big hurdle compared to dumpster diving and makingfuel for your buddies.Regards,Ric CuchettoNorthern california-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of TarynTooSent: August 09, 2005 08:04To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...Hi Mike,Can you (or others) expand on this please? How much of a fortune? I've been searching for info on the tax and regulatory issues of producing and selling BD on a small scale. I wouldn't mind joining or starting a co-op, but cooperatively-minded folk are thin on the ground in South Florida.Thanks, TarynOn Aug 9, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: Also, you can't set up a Biodiesel plant in the US. It's illegal to sell fuel unless you have it tested by ASTM, which costs a fortune. You can brew your own or as part of a coop. -Mike___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Not necessarily. More like the big hand(s) of soybean interest(s) manipulating a set of controls to as best as possible guarantee that they get their research, testing and investment monies back. Forget that the monies they used are from a per bushel tax on beans, designated for use to advance the production and consumption of soy, which biodiesel does. What they want is the tax money to operate off of and then after they spend it they want it replenished. The government just went along in the processing of incorporating biodiesel as an EPA registered fuel. Then again, on the other hand, the soybean interests could have kept the Tier I II health effects studies for their use only as well as applicable only to soybean oil. But that's not how it ended up, as fuel from all oil and fat feedstocks fall under the rubric of biodiesel. One could say that the EPA lobbied to keep the gate open a little wider than strictly soy, which in turn served the public's interest rather than specifically the special interest. Nobody is talking. Todd Swearingen Tom Irwin wrote: Hi All, Do I detect the big hand of government squeezing the small business owner for corporate America here? Tom *From:* Ric Cuchetto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:50:42 -0300 *Subject:* RE: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... ASTM testing is at the end of the process. We are also struggling with taxes and licensing and posting bond related to transporting the waste veggie oil. There is quite a bit of resistance to these technologies. Truckers, renderers and petro companies do a much better job of lobbying than the grass roots folks. Even forward-thinking folks trying to build methanizers or biodiesel plants find that the insurance, licensing and certification make it difficult to justify the costs. Let's not even start with the transportation (fuel) taxes. Commercialization is a big hurdle compared to dumpster diving and making fuel for your buddies. Regards, Ric Cuchetto Northern california -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED]) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])] On Behalf Of TarynToo Sent: August 09, 2005 08:04 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve... Hi Mike, Can you (or others) expand on this please? How much of a fortune? I've been searching for info on the tax and regulatory issues of producing and selling BD on a small scale. I wouldn't mind joining or starting a co-op, but cooperatively-minded folk are thin on the ground in South Florida. Thanks, Taryn On Aug 9, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: Also, you can't set up a Biodiesel plant in the US. It's illegal to sell fuel unless you have it tested by ASTM, which costs a fortune. You can brew your own or as part of a coop. -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
