Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl esters biodiesel - Lee - was (no subject)
Keith: I successfully ran a test batch using the heads and middle portion of the distillation (light alcohols and ethanol). The wash test and methanol tests showed a complete conversion. I used 28% alcohol by volume. The more dilute tails go in a barrel to be run again at a later date. I recently built a 25 gallon compound fractionating still. Soon I will put it in to operation to make 96% pure ethanol in volume. Lee. Good going Lee, thanks. I'm glad I asked. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl esters biodiesel - Lee - was (no subject)
Keith: I successfully ran a test batch using the heads and middle portion of the distillation (light alcohols and ethanol). The wash test and methanol tests showed a complete conversion. I used 28% alcohol by volume. The more dilute tails go in a barrel to be run again at a later date. I recently built a 25 gallon compound fractionating still. Soon I will put it in to operation to make 96% pure ethanol in volume. Lee. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100124/0386854a/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl esters biodiesel - Lee - was (no subject)
Hello Lee Did you have any results yet with heads and tails tests? Best Keith Keith: Thanks for responding. I do a second distillation using calcium chloride and then 3A molecular sieve to dry the alcohol. So far I have been using 50% lard mixed with 50% soybean oil (both used) . I am in the process of eliminating the lard and using used soybean oil with a titration of 2 grams NaOH per liter. I use KOH at the U. of Idaho's recommended amount of 1.3 Kg per 100 liters of oil. I have been using 1/3 purchased methanol mixed with 2/3 self produced ethanol and using 20% alcohol by volume in the reaction. The ethanol is 99% pure. Lee Hello Lee I have been making biodiesel using ethanol for about a year. Methanol is $500 a barrel in Hawaii. I'm having some difficulty with partial conversions with substantial vegetable oil remaining dissolved in the ethyl esters demonstrable by the methanol test. I have been using 99% alcohol I make from sugarcane that I grow. How do you get such a high proof? Distilling it only gives about 95.6%. Are you using zeolyte to dry it? What kind of oil are you using, and is it new or used? If used, what's the titration? Are you using KOH or NaOH? I am currently using all distillation fractions including the light and heavy alcohol portions. Any thoughts on whether it would be better to use only the ethanol fraction in order to encourage more complete conversions? I'd suggest using only the ethanol fraction in a test batch, then including the heads and tails in a second test batch, and comparing the results, via the methanol test and the wash test. Quality tests http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#washtst HTH - best Keith Lee ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl esters biodiesel - was (no subject)
Keith: Thanks for responding. I do a second distillation using calcium chloride and then 3A molecular sieve to dry the alcohol. So far I have been using 50% lard mixed with 50% soybean oil (both used) . I am in the process of eliminating the lard and using used soybean oil with a titration of 2 grams NaOH per liter. I use KOH at the U. of Idaho's recommended amount of 1.3 Kg per 100 liters of oil. I have been using 1/3 purchased methanol mixed with 2/3 self produced ethanol and using 20% alcohol by volume in the reaction. The ethanol is 99% pure. Lee -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20091207/f23e2329/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl esters biodiesel - was (no subject)
Hello Lee I have been making biodiesel using ethanol for about a year. Methanol is $500 a barrel in Hawaii. I'm having some difficulty with partial conversions with substantial vegetable oil remaining dissolved in the ethyl esters demonstrable by the methanol test. I have been using 99% alcohol I make from sugarcane that I grow. How do you get such a high proof? Distilling it only gives about 95.6%. Are you using zeolyte to dry it? What kind of oil are you using, and is it new or used? If used, what's the titration? Are you using KOH or NaOH? I am currently using all distillation fractions including the light and heavy alcohol portions. Any thoughts on whether it would be better to use only the ethanol fraction in order to encourage more complete conversions? I'd suggest using only the ethanol fraction in a test batch, then including the heads and tails in a second test batch, and comparing the results, via the methanol test and the wash test. Quality tests http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#washtst HTH - best Keith Lee ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
Ken, After a bit of poking around, I see the best place to start is (surprise!) Journey to Forever: Amen Brother. Thanks for the reminder. JtF is jam-packed with info.on this, and so many other important topics. However, when I read, I often come away with what I'm ready for at the moment. Questions arise after having read, and I often don't think to re-read. Good Day to You, Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process) On Apr 21, 2007, at 5:35 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote: I suspect I'm not done asking for help though. After a bit of poking around, I see the best place to start is (surprise!) Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/ manual6-7.html JtoF really is an amazing resource :-) -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
Thanks Ken, Why buy enzymes, when sprouting some grain produces the enzymes needed to digest starch in unsprouted grains, sweet potatoes, or Jerusalem artichokes. Have I got it right? Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process) On Apr 20, 2007, at 7:19 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Can I bypass sprouting by using enzymes (bacterial amylase) on cracked grain to break the starch in grain into simple (fermentable) sugars? Somewhere down the line, if all goes well, I will probably move towards other feedstocks that are rich in starch, and releasing the stored sugars by sprouting will not be an option You can use commercially extracted enzymes instead of malt, but why? Mashing of grains doesn't require malting the primary grain -- good example is corn mash whiskey, in which the starch of maize is saccharified using the malt of barley. Only small amounts of barley malt (or wheat malt) are needed to mash large amounts of starch (which can come from any source). -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
On Apr 21, 2007, at 12:19 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Why buy enzymes, when sprouting some grain produces the enzymes needed to digest starch in unsprouted grains, sweet potatoes, or Jerusalem artichokes. Have I got it right? Yup, at least that's how i see it. Traditionally the sprouted grain is roasted slightly (ie, dried) to prevent further decomposition (lightly enough as not to destroy the enzymes). The result is what's known as malt. If you have a homebrew shop nearby, you can buy malt already made and ground. I suppose if you used freshly sprouted grain quickly, you could even dispense with the drying step. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
Ken, I like the idea. Why would buy something that I can generate myself? How much sprouted grain : total starch? Probably better to err on the side of too much rather than too little. I've got a few yeast starter bottles I use to get live yeast cultures going for brewing beer. Bubbles coming through the gas traps give an indication of fermentation rate. I'll bet I can at least get a feel for what's going on using these quart-sized fermenters before moving on to larger fermentation buckets. Thanks again for you help. I suspect I'm not done asking for help though. Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process) On Apr 21, 2007, at 12:19 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Why buy enzymes, when sprouting some grain produces the enzymes needed to digest starch in unsprouted grains, sweet potatoes, or Jerusalem artichokes. Have I got it right? Yup, at least that's how i see it. Traditionally the sprouted grain is roasted slightly (ie, dried) to prevent further decomposition (lightly enough as not to destroy the enzymes). The result is what's known as malt. If you have a homebrew shop nearby, you can buy malt already made and ground. I suppose if you used freshly sprouted grain quickly, you could even dispense with the drying step. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
On Apr 21, 2007, at 5:35 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote: How much sprouted grain : total starch? Probably better to err on the side of too much rather than too little. My notes on mashing corn are all packed away now, but you should be able to learn the details from appropriate Google searches (eg, making corn mash whiskey -- 94000 hits). The enzymes in the malt are not consumed in the reaction, of course, so much less malt is needed than starch. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
On Apr 21, 2007, at 5:35 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote: I suspect I'm not done asking for help though. After a bit of poking around, I see the best place to start is (surprise!) Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/ manual6-7.html JtoF really is an amazing resource :-) -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
On Apr 21, 2007, at 5:35 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote: I suspect I'm not done asking for help though. After a bit of poking around, I see the best place to start is (surprise!) Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual6-7.html JtoF really is an amazing resource :-) -K :-) I'd just done a reply pointing to that chapter (first book I scanned). http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual6-7.html#ch7 Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch6-7 Chapter 7 PROCESSING STEPS SPECIFIC TO STARCHY MATERIALS Preparation of Starchy Materials Milling Cooking Conversion Malting Premalting Preparation of Malt Enzyme Conversion Acid Hydrolosis Mash Cooling We've got three kinds of barley growing, sown in autumn, doing nicely. Old varieties, ordinary barley, huskless barley and purple barley (also huskless). It took me a long time to find barley seeds here. Not growing very much of it, no fields to spare here, it's growing in raised beds, only about six metres of bed for each, along with a traditional wheat and also some old rye. So unless the sky falls on our heads in the meantime (which it might do) I'll be having some barley seed to sprout for enzyme 'ere too long. Midori pre-sprouted some rice (seed from Fukuoka's network ((One Straw Revolution)) and put it in a nursery bed yesterday. We'll transplant it soon, after 8-10 days, and grow it in raised beds, unirrigated, with compost and mulch, in the SRI style. Very interesting, SRI rice: How to Help Rice Plants to Grow Better and Produce More: Teach Yourself and Others, the original SRI manual, has been developed jointly by CIIFAD and Tefy Saina to explain SRI to persons working with farmers to communicate the main ideas underlying SRI. (pdf 175 kb) http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/srimanual.pdf SRI FAQ Questions and Answers about the System of Rice Intensification (SRI) for Raising the Productivity of Land, Labor and Water -- Norman Uphoff, Cornell International Institute for Food, Agriculture and Development (pdf 236 kb) http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/sriqanda.pdf Technical Presentation of the System of Rice Intensification, Based on Katayama's Tillering Model -- Henri de Laulanié, Association Tefy Saina (pdf 208 kb) http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Laulanie.pdf SRI homepage The System of Rice Intensification - SRI A collaborative effort of Association Tefy Saina and Cornell International Institute for Food, Agriculture and Development (CIIFAD) http://ciifad.cornell.edu/sri/methods.html Sake is also interesting, Japanese rice wine: Koji is a mold that has an enzyme to convert starch to sugar... Starch conversion by Koji and fermentation by Sake yeast proceed in the same fermenter at the same time. http://www.geocities.co.jp/Foodpia/1751/koji.html Improved Kome-koji process for homebrew Sake http://www.tibbs-vision.com/sake/instrct.html Homebrew Sake Instruction Page http://hbd.org/brewery/library/sake_MH0499.html How to Homebrew Sake http://brewery.org/library/sake/cover.htm The Chemistry of Sake Brewing http://home1.gte.net/richwebb/sakeprod.htm The Outsider's Guide to Sake Production No cooking needed: http://ss.jircas.affrc.go.jp/engpage/jarq/33-1/nishimura/nishimura.html Production of Shochu Spirit from Crushed Rice by Non-Cooking Fermentation HTH Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
Ken, Google Gert Strand -- they make a turboyeast that achieves 16-18% alcohol in a single fermentation. That's what I used. 16 -18% Wow Thanks, that's good news. Mashing a grain is much cheaper, and cheaper yet if you sprout your own malt. Can I bypass sprouting by using enzymes (bacterial amylase) on cracked grain to break the starch in grain into simple (fermentable) sugars? Somewhere down the line, if all goes well, I will probably move towards other feedstocks that are rich in starch, and releasing the stored sugars by sprouting will not be an option Thanks, Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process) On Apr 19, 2007, at 11:06 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: My questions go to point that you were able to achieve 95+% completion, and the fact that, in practice, we would like to maximize ethanol output as well as achieving complete sugar utilization. Google Gert Strand -- they make a turboyeast that achieves 16-18% alcohol in a single fermentation. That's what I used. The expense is high when starting from refined sucrose, of course. Mashing a grain is much cheaper, and cheaper yet if you sprout your own malt. Strawbale house is beautiful, thanks. Sometimes I get grumpy, but it is coming along :-) -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
On Apr 20, 2007, at 7:19 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Can I bypass sprouting by using enzymes (bacterial amylase) on cracked grain to break the starch in grain into simple (fermentable) sugars? Somewhere down the line, if all goes well, I will probably move towards other feedstocks that are rich in starch, and releasing the stored sugars by sprouting will not be an option You can use commercially extracted enzymes instead of malt, but why? Mashing of grains doesn't require malting the primary grain -- good example is corn mash whiskey, in which the starch of maize is saccharified using the malt of barley. Only small amounts of barley malt (or wheat malt) are needed to mash large amounts of starch (which can come from any source). -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
Ken,
Good to hear from you.
You wrote:
. then distilled it (ethanol) and dried it with zeolite
This is the part I'm interested in. As a homebrewer (beer/wine) I'm
familiar with fermentation. It's the drying part that I'm concerned with.
I was getting familiar with zeolite while recovering methanol. I already
had a simple still built, and didn't have to concern myself with applying for a
permit. There was a good deal of discussion last May and June ('06) regarding
distillation and drying of methanol. ( [Biofuel] 3A molecular Sieve and
Methanol Recovery). I simply put zeolite into the distilled methanol to remove
water and then tried to regenerate the zeolite in my kitchen oven. I got
questionable results at best.
Since then I have learned that zeolite is most effective at removing water
from vapors rather than the liquid distillate. A zeolite water trap should be
in the vapor stream. Regenerating the zeolite using high temps
damages the sieve by distorting the pores. Joe Street suggested low temp, low
pressure (vacuum) regeneration. I've since read that this is how zeolite is
regenerated at the industrial level.
As Keith has said . this (ethyl ester production) is indeed the
missing bit, and one of the last pieces of the puzzle for truly viable and
sustainable biofuels production for small farms and local communities.
Good luck with the $%[EMAIL PROTECTED] strawbale house
Tom
- Original Message -
From: Ken Provost
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
On Apr 18, 2007, at 10:42 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote:
Is it actually possible for a person to produce 99+% pure ethanol using
readily available materials,
and at reasonable cost, or must it be produced on an industrial scale? Are
any of you making it in
your backyard?
I have actually made it (in the garage, not the backyard:-)) from white sugar
and a bag of TurboYeast
from Gert Strand (sp?), then distilled it and dried it with zeolite, and then
used it for biodiesel. It's a
PITA, but possible. The EROI could be favorable if you started with the right
crop, kept your enzymes
and yeast going like a sourdough starter or made your own malt from scratch,
and did your distillation
in a solar still. I'll try all that if I ever finish this $%[EMAIL
PROTECTED] strawbale house. 'Till then I'm back to petrodiesel
or methyl esters :-(
-K
--
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
Hello Nick, Sucrose, our regular table sugar, one pound of it will make 299 ml. of pure ethanol. yeast will stand up to 11% of alcohol concentration before slowing down. The owner of my brew supplies shop told me that she can supply me with yeast strains that can ferment to 14% alcohol. I got up to 95% sugar utilization after repeat fermentation. . I'm not familiar with repeat fermentation. Is fermentation repeated because the ferment reached the yeast's limits of alcohol tolerance before the sugar was completely utilized? Can one expect to achieve 95% sugar utilization in a single ferment if consideration is given to sugar to volume ratio and yeast tolerance for alcohol. Ex. 299 ml ethanol (from 1 lb sucrose) = 11% of 2.7 L. If one dissolved 1 lb of sucrose in enough water to give 2.7 L of solution, using the same yeast you had used, would you get close to 11% ethanol on a single ferment? Or In practice must fermentable sugars be in excess of this calculated amount in order to reach the upper ethanol concentration? I've seen recipes for preparing the mash for fermentation. I don't know if consideration is given to complete sugar utilization, or simply achieving the upper limits of ethanol concentration for the strain of yeast employed, without regard for complete sugar utilization. My questions go to point that you were able to achieve 95+% completion, and the fact that, in practice, we would like to maximize ethanol output as well as achieving complete sugar utilization. Tom - Original Message - From: NV Dhana [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:58 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process) Hi Ken Provost, I tried it in My garage.I borrowed the yeast from local wineary. Sucrose, our regular table sugar, one pound of it will make 299 ml. of pure ethanol. yeast will stand up to 11% of alcohol concentration before slowing down. I got got up to 95% sugar utilization after repeat fermentation.Distilation of ethanol was done by counter current distilation. It is bit expensive, about 12.5 lb sugar will give you one gallon of ethanol. so we must have cheaper source of fermentable sugar. Nick Dhana From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:58:58 -0700 On Apr 18, 2007, at 10:42 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Is it actually possible for a person to produce 99+% pure ethanol using readily available materials, and at reasonable cost, or must it be produced on an industrial scale? Are any of you making it in your backyard? I have actually made it (in the garage, not the backyard:-)) from white sugar and a bag of TurboYeast from Gert Strand (sp?), then distilled it and dried it with zeolite, and then used it for biodiesel. It's a PITA, but possible. The EROI could be favorable if you started with the right crop, kept your enzymes and yeast going like a sourdough starter or made your own malt from scratch, and did your distillation in a solar still. I'll try all that if I ever finish this $%[EMAIL PROTECTED] strawbale house. 'Till then I'm back to petrodiesel or methyl esters :-( -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
On Apr 19, 2007, at 11:06 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: My questions go to point that you were able to achieve 95+% completion, and the fact that, in practice, we would like to maximize ethanol output as well as achieving complete sugar utilization. Google Gert Strand -- they make a turboyeast that achieves 16-18% alcohol in a single fermentation. That's what I used. The expense is high when starting from refined sucrose, of course. Mashing a grain is much cheaper, and cheaper yet if you sprout your own malt. Strawbale house is beautiful, thanks. Sometimes I get grumpy, but it is coming along :-) -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
I am very keen to get off the meth also Jim. I have by no means given up or anything, just haven't got to it yet. I did collect some ethanol but didn't get as far as you with the sieves. Read up on using corn grits which looks very promising. I should push myself to get some progress on it. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello Pannir and Keith, Pannir has indicated that he is interested the use of ethanol instead of methanol to make ethyl esters because methanol is not readily available in some developing countries. While methanol is available to me, my supplier just quoted a price of $4.41/gal (USD) for 54 gal drums (vs $2.60/gal last June). Price fluctuations, the carbon footprint of methanol vs ethanol use, and the possibility of further restrictions on methanol sales to individuals, makes ethanol a tempting alternative. Keith replied: Yes, Pannir, this is indeed the missing bit, and one of the last pieces of the puzzle for truly viable and sustainable biofuels production for small farms and local communities. It's what we were planning in the first place when we started the Biofuel list seven years ago, it was on the list of goals we made then, and it's still there, ... I would like to revive the discussion of anhydrous ethanol. As I understand it, the ethanol used to make ethyl esters must be dry; less than 1% H2O. The WVO must be very good quality (dry + titrate less than 2.0 using .1%NaOH). Last year at about this time I built a simple still for recovering methanol. I attempted to dry the methanol using 3A Molecular Sieve (Zeolite). The plan was to get familiar with the process while recovering methanol and move on to ethanol after building a reflux still and getting the necessary permit to distill ethanol. Drying the alcohol and regenerating the zeolite was not as easy as I thought it would be. I put the project aside, but have not quite given up. My question is: Is it actually possible for a person, to produce 99+% pure ethanol using readily available materials, and at reasonable cost, or must it be produced on an industrial scale? Are any of you making it in your backyard? I've got my Jerusalem artichokes growing (Sun Chokes as Jim Phelps likes to call them) and will try growing sweet potatoes this year. I can always eat them if I don't end up fermenting them. Best to You, Tom - Original Message - *From:* Pagandai Pannirselvam mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, April 14, 2007 11:37 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process Hi, Keith, Ken and Tom Tom there is no for your apology, as we can have different views. We, Acadamics , engineers , researchers need to learn a lot from all the people like Keith and Tom who are very practical always work very near to the process problems. What always happens to all the new and old engineers who are good in process synthesis , but lack always and also very bad in critical analysis of the project with regard to materials used, the complexity and viability. Thus several millions money spent by university research are all going as a waste such as supercritical extraction for BiD good results at laboratory , but no use for largescale use. The combination of practical and concepts based on the theory need to go together in this list to evolve a better catalysts, prcoessos, equipments, process seperations. The reactive distillation means doing the reaction together with the distillation and I agree with Keith that, yet this can be only research level. After Keith explanation about mixing by recirculation is an effective way to reduce the product revers reaction of glycerol , moreover , the sediment ion of glycerol , made possible means a better way to filter out the glycerol , thus preventing unwanted byproducts. Thus understanding of the process is vital to operate the plant. At the beginning mixing can favour the reaction , the can be slow so that the product can be pulled out of reaction. I also agree with Keith , there is no point to bother about glycerol recovery as this can be easily used as liquid soap , sold soap , combustible , , for bio gas production , even as the source for rural wood energy and hence the high cost of recovery to get ultra purity glycerol is out of question as far as the small scale process are concerned. Yet I have one one question to Keith regarding the use of Methanol instead of ethanol. Will this two stage process can be possible with ethanol only or the mixture of methanol and
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
Hey Joe, How many times have I asked you not to call me Jim? Actually, it's quite an honor. My father was Jim, my older brother is Jim. Then there's the famous Mr. Phelps who also occasionally goes by the name Jim. I have plans for making a reflux still using a beer keg. I finally was able to empty it. Water trap in the vapor stream; vacuum to regenerate at low temps. We'll see. Good to hear from you, TomJim - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process) I am very keen to get off the meth also Jim. I have by no means given up or anything, just haven't got to it yet. I did collect some ethanol but didn't get as far as you with the sieves. Read up on using corn grits which looks very promising. I should push myself to get some progress on it. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello Pannir and Keith, Pannir has indicated that he is interested the use of ethanol instead of methanol to make ethyl esters because methanol is not readily available in some developing countries. While methanol is available to me, my supplier just quoted a price of $4.41/gal (USD) for 54 gal drums (vs $2.60/gal last June). Price fluctuations, the carbon footprint of methanol vs ethanol use, and the possibility of further restrictions on methanol sales to individuals, makes ethanol a tempting alternative. Keith replied: Yes, Pannir, this is indeed the missing bit, and one of the last pieces of the puzzle for truly viable and sustainable biofuels production for small farms and local communities. It's what we were planning in the first place when we started the Biofuel list seven years ago, it was on the list of goals we made then, and it's still there, ... I would like to revive the discussion of anhydrous ethanol. As I understand it, the ethanol used to make ethyl esters must be dry; less than 1% H2O. The WVO must be very good quality (dry + titrate less than 2.0 using .1%NaOH). Last year at about this time I built a simple still for recovering methanol. I attempted to dry the methanol using 3A Molecular Sieve (Zeolite). The plan was to get familiar with the process while recovering methanol and move on to ethanol after building a reflux still and getting the necessary permit to distill ethanol. Drying the alcohol and regenerating the zeolite was not as easy as I thought it would be. I put the project aside, but have not quite given up. My question is: Is it actually possible for a person, to produce 99+% pure ethanol using readily available materials, and at reasonable cost, or must it be produced on an industrial scale? Are any of you making it in your backyard? I've got my Jerusalem artichokes growing (Sun Chokes as Jim Phelps likes to call them) and will try growing sweet potatoes this year. I can always eat them if I don't end up fermenting them. Best to You, Tom - Original Message - From: Pagandai Pannirselvam To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process Hi, Keith, Ken and Tom Tom there is no for your apology, as we can have different views. We, Acadamics , engineers , researchers need to learn a lot from all the people like Keith and Tom who are very practical always work very near to the process problems. What always happens to all the new and old engineers who are good in process synthesis , but lack always and also very bad in critical analysis of the project with regard to materials used, the complexity and viability. Thus several millions money spent by university research are all going as a waste such as supercritical extraction for BiD good results at laboratory , but no use for largescale use. The combination of practical and concepts based on the theory need to go together in this list to evolve a better catalysts, prcoessos, equipments, process seperations. The reactive distillation means doing the reaction together with the distillation and I agree with Keith that, yet this can be only research level. After Keith explanation about mixing by recirculation is an effective way to reduce the product revers reaction of glycerol , moreover , the sediment ion of glycerol , made possible means a better way to filter out the glycerol , thus preventing unwanted byproducts. Thus understanding of the process is vital to operate the plant
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
ROFL. Sorry I guess I should have gone to bed before 3 am last nighter this morning. Ahh coffee Sorry Tom. Joe PS Did u recover the ethanol from the keg? ;^ Thomas Kelly wrote: Hey Joe, How many times have I asked you not to call me Jim? Actually, it's quite an honor. My father was Jim, my older brother is Jim. Then there's the famous Mr. Phelps who also occasionally goes by the name Jim. I have plans for making a reflux still using a beer keg. I finally was able to empty it. Water trap in the vapor stream; vacuum to regenerate at low temps. We'll see. Good to hear from you, ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
Joe,
3 AM !Life in the fast lane. Much closer to when I wake up than when I go
to sleep.
PS Did u recover the ethanol from the keg? ;^
Absolutely. Maybe not how you mean recovered.
It was Budweeser. I drained it into two of my soda kegs; added some of my
homebrewed raspberry porter. I pasteurized a quart of red raspberries and
added the strained juice. A few days at room temp, a day in the frig
not great, but not bad. It went pretty fast. I don't recall any
complaints.
Tom
- Original Message -
From: Joe Street
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
ROFL. Sorry I guess I should have gone to bed before 3 am last nighter
this morning. Ahh coffee
Sorry Tom.
Joe
PS Did u recover the ethanol from the keg? ;^
Thomas Kelly wrote:
Hey Joe,
How many times have I asked you not to call me Jim?
Actually, it's quite an honor. My father was Jim, my older brother is
Jim.
Then there's the famous Mr. Phelps who also occasionally goes by the name
Jim.
I have plans for making a reflux still using a beer keg. I finally was
able to empty it. Water trap in the vapor stream; vacuum to regenerate at low
temps.
We'll see.
Good to hear from you,
--
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
On Apr 18, 2007, at 10:42 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Is it actually possible for a person to produce 99+% pure ethanol using readily available materials, and at reasonable cost, or must it be produced on an industrial scale? Are any of you making it in your backyard? I have actually made it (in the garage, not the backyard:-)) from white sugar and a bag of TurboYeast from Gert Strand (sp?), then distilled it and dried it with zeolite, and then used it for biodiesel. It's a PITA, but possible. The EROI could be favorable if you started with the right crop, kept your enzymes and yeast going like a sourdough starter or made your own malt from scratch, and did your distillation in a solar still. I'll try all that if I ever finish this $%[EMAIL PROTECTED] strawbale house. 'Till then I'm back to petrodiesel or methyl esters :-( -K___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process)
Hi Ken Provost, I tried it in My garage.I borrowed the yeast from local wineary. Sucrose, our regular table sugar, one pound of it will make 299 ml of pure ethanol. yeast will stand up to 11% of alcohol concentration before slowing down. I got got up to 95% sugar utilization after repeat fermentation.Distilation of ethanol was done by counter current distilation. It is bit expensive, about 12.5 lb sugar will give you one gallon of ethanol. so we must have cheaper source of fermentable sugar. Nick Dhana From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Biodiesel New Process) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:58:58 -0700 On Apr 18, 2007, at 10:42 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Is it actually possible for a person to produce 99+% pure ethanol using readily available materials, and at reasonable cost, or must it be produced on an industrial scale? Are any of you making it in your backyard? I have actually made it (in the garage, not the backyard:-)) from white sugar and a bag of TurboYeast from Gert Strand (sp?), then distilled it and dried it with zeolite, and then used it for biodiesel. It's a PITA, but possible. The EROI could be favorable if you started with the right crop, kept your enzymes and yeast going like a sourdough starter or made your own malt from scratch, and did your distillation in a solar still. I'll try all that if I ever finish this $%[EMAIL PROTECTED] strawbale house. 'Till then I'm back to petrodiesel or methyl esters :-( -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Hi Tom Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went to bed and left the hot plate on overnight..well in the morning..I crept downstairsfull of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning and..there was this collosal.huge...disappointment. There was nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet either Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Doesn't castor oil absorb alcohol? If so the heat would cause the alcohol to evaporate out of the water, but it would combine with the Castor oil. That should raise the alcohol boiling point. Maybe once the Castor oil becomes saturated with alcohol then any remaining alcohol would appear on the surface. Also maybe raising the temp more but keeping it under water's boiling point would cause it to boil out of the castor oil, but keep the water below the castor. Logan Vilas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Street Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:23 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went to bed and left the hot plate on overnight..well in the morning..I crept downstairsfull of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning and..there was this collosal.huge...disappointment. There was nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet either Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Hi Logan; I wanted to try this as a continuous process so the oil is floating on the alcohol/water mixture. In this case one cannot heat to the boiling point of the alcohol much less the boiling point of water. As soon as any bubbles form they would rise through the oil defeating the purpose of the oil as a barrier. I was hoping it would be as you said, that the alcohol would diffuse into the oil and due to the cooler temperature above and lower density of the alcohol, would tend to coalesce on top of the oil. An equilibrium point would be reached before the alcohol was completely removed from the water of course but because the water temperature is close to the boiling point of the alcohol it should tend to move through the oil toward the cooler side. This did not appear to happen at 60 degrees overnight. Perhaps the oil barrier was too thick I thought so I will try again with less. Joe Logan vilas wrote: Doesn't castor oil absorb alcohol? If so the heat would cause the alcohol to evaporate out of the water, but it would combine with the Castor oil. That should raise the alcohol boiling point. Maybe once the Castor oil becomes saturated with alcohol then any remaining alcohol would appear on the surface. Also maybe raising the temp more but keeping it under water's boiling point would cause it to boil out of the castor oil, but keep the water below the castor. Logan Vilas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Street Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:23 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went to bed and left the hot plate on overnight..well in the morning..I crept downstairsfull of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning and..there was this collosal.huge...disappointment. There was nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet either Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Tom. Castor oil idea is a bum. I pour 100 ml of castor oil ln flask containing 500ml of fermented broth with about 7.5% ethanol. stirred it good and left it over night. I did not see any volume increase in castor oil. I made more test and find out, negligible amount of ethanol was dissolve in castor oil. i miix 99% pure ethanol with castor oil, which mix very well. i think, bond between water and ethanol in aquviose condition is much stronger. Castor oil also killed all yeast too. I am working on other idea for destilling ethanol with less energy. If it work i will let you know later. Navnit From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:14:19 -0500 Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Joe, There doesn't seem to be any majik bullet for this. The rate of diffusion is related to the kintetic energy (or vapor pressure?) of the ethanol, its concentration, and the surface area it is diffusing through. I wonder if the problem extracting ethanol from wine is that it only represents 12 - 13% by volume. as concentration of ethanol drops/water rises that azeotropic deal becomes more of a factor. It may be necessary to first distill the alcohol . 50%, 60%, 80% ?? Then dry it with the castor oil screen. If so, the picture that is starting to develop is not a pretty one: A. Fermentation . distill ferment . castor oil screen allows recovery of some anhydrous ethanol. At some point ethanol conc. drops screening is no longer feasible. B. Return exhausted ethanol/water mix to the still along with next ferment. Thanks for the time and effort you are putting in. I think that ultimately, the successful production of energy on a small-scale, and hence local level . intergrated with sustainable farming, will include ethanol production. Now go have a drink. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went to bed and left the hot plate on overnight..well in the morning..I crept downstairsfull of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning and..there was this collosal.huge...disappointment. There was nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet either Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Navnit, Thanks for the info. I am working on other idea for destilling ethanol with less energy. If it work i will let you know Please do. Best of luck, Tom - Original Message - From: NV Dhana [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Tom. Castor oil idea is a bum. I pour 100 ml of castor oil ln flask containing 500ml of fermented broth with about 7.5% ethanol. stirred it good and left it over night. I did not see any volume increase in castor oil. I made more test and find out, negligible amount of ethanol was dissolve in castor oil. i miix 99% pure ethanol with castor oil, which mix very well. i think, bond between water and ethanol in aquviose condition is much stronger. Castor oil also killed all yeast too. I am working on other idea for destilling ethanol with less energy. If it work i will let you know later. Navnit From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:14:19 -0500 Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Hey Tom; I was thinking along the same lines but then there's this: Castor oil has a density of about 0.96 at room temp. According to the specific gravity tests I did with methanol ( ethanol is close in density) even 90% pure methanol with water still only has a density of 0.82 at 23 deg. C. For this idea to work the alcohol water mix must be heavier than the castor oil. I'll do as you suggest and see what can be done. Seives is still looking simpler at this point tho. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, There doesn't seem to be any majik bullet for this. The rate of diffusion is related to the kintetic energy (or vapor pressure?) of the ethanol, its concentration, and the surface area it is diffusing through. I wonder if the problem extracting ethanol from wine is that it only represents 12 - 13% by volume. as concentration of ethanol drops/water rises that azeotropic deal becomes more of a factor. It may be necessary to first distill the alcohol . 50%, 60%, 80% ?? Then dry it with the castor oil screen. If so, the picture that is starting to develop is not a pretty one: A. Fermentation . distill ferment . castor oil screen allows recovery of some anhydrous ethanol. At some point ethanol conc. drops screening is no longer feasible. B. Return exhausted ethanol/water mix to the still along with next ferment. Thanks for the time and effort you are putting in. I think that ultimately, the successful production of energy on a small-scale, and hence local level . intergrated with sustainable farming, will include ethanol production. Now go have a drink. Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, December 01, 2006 9:23 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went to bed and left the hot plate on overnight..well in the morning..I crept downstairsfull of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning and..there was this collosal.huge...disappointment. There was nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet either Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
its all about the surface area. i assume the flask you were using had an opening of between three and five cm? try using a wide shallow pan or a big bowl. and the oil layer doesnt have to be super thick, maybe 5mm. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Logan vilas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Doesn't castor oil absorb alcohol? If so the heat would cause the alcohol to evaporate out of the water, but it would combine with the Castor oil. That should raise the alcohol boiling point. Maybe once the Castor oil becomes saturated with alcohol then any remaining alcohol would appear on the surface. Also maybe raising the temp more but keeping it under water's boiling point would cause it to boil out of the castor oil, but keep the water below the castor. Logan Vilas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Street Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:23 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went to bed and left the hot plate on overnight..well in the morning..I crept downstairsfull of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning and..there was this collosal.huge...disappointment. There was nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet either Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
you have to find the flash point for the ethanol quantity. i also believe that high percentages of ethanol are more agreeable. this would be a refining step in a larger process, not a means of distilling. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:42 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) its all about the surface area. i assume the flask you were using had an opening of between three and five cm? try using a wide shallow pan or a big bowl. and the oil layer doesnt have to be super thick, maybe 5mm. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Logan vilas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Doesn't castor oil absorb alcohol? If so the heat would cause the alcohol to evaporate out of the water, but it would combine with the Castor oil. That should raise the alcohol boiling point. Maybe once the Castor oil becomes saturated with alcohol then any remaining alcohol would appear on the surface. Also maybe raising the temp more but keeping it under water's boiling point would cause it to boil out of the castor oil, but keep the water below the castor. Logan Vilas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Street Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:23 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went to bed and left the hot plate on overnight..well in the morning..I crept downstairsfull of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning and..there was this collosal.huge...disappointment. There was nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet either Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Hello Ken, Appreciate your input. (Just a quick summary in case anyone else is listening.) While denatured ethanol may be used on the premises where it was produced, it must be denatured for transport or use in vehicles off premises. It seems that BD would not render the spirits unfit for beverage use, so the question remains: Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters? (I don't see methanol on the list below, but it is my understanding that methanol is the denaturant in denatured ethanol available in hardware stores.) Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process of making ethyl esters? A list of the approved denaturants from the section, Authorized Materials, . for making ethanol unfit for beverage use from the (US) Code of Federal Regulations.) Sec. 19.1005 Authorized materials.(a) General. The Director shall determine and authorize for use materials for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use which will not impair the quality of the spirits for fuel use. Spirits treated under this section will be considered rendered unfit for beverage use and eligible for withdrawal as fuel alcohol.(b) List. The Director will compile and issue periodically a list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use. The list will specify for each material (1) name and (2) quantity required to render spirits unfit for beverage use. The list may be obtained at no cost upon request from the ATF Distribution Center, 7943 Angus Court, Springfield, Virginia 22153.(c) Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are authorized to add to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following materials in the quantities specified. (1) 2 gallons or more of--(i) Gasoline or automotive gasoline (for use in engines which require unleaded gasoline Environmental Protection Agency and manufacturers specifications may require that unleaded gasoline be used to render the spirits unfit for beverage use).(ii) Kerosene,(iii) Deodorized kerosene,(iv) Rubber hydrocarbon solvent, (v) Methyl isobutyl ketone,(vi) Mixed isomers of nitropropane,(vii) Heptane, or,(viii) Any combination of (i) through (vii); or(2) \1/8\ ounce of denatonium benzoate N.F. and 2 gallons of isopropyl alcohol.(Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 (26 U.S.C. 5181))[T.D. ATF-198, 50 FR 8464, Mar. 1, 1985, as amended by T.D. ATF-249, 52 FR 5961, Feb. 27, 1987; T.D. ATF-442, 66 FR 12854, Mar. 1, 2001] Thanks, Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? There are several levels of denaturing -- fully denatured needs to be foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-) Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting. -K -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Kerosene works. It is neutral in the reaction and can be separated later by freezing the bio. (If you would want to??) From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:16:39 -0500 Hello Ken, Appreciate your input. (Just a quick summary in case anyone else is listening.) While denatured ethanol may be used on the premises where it was produced, it must be denatured for transport or use in vehicles off premises. It seems that BD would not render the spirits unfit for beverage use, so the question remains: Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters? (I don't see methanol on the list below, but it is my understanding that methanol is the denaturant in denatured ethanol available in hardware stores.) Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process of making ethyl esters? A list of the approved denaturants from the section, Authorized Materials, . for making ethanol unfit for beverage use from the (US) Code of Federal Regulations.) Sec. 19.1005 Authorized materials.(a) General. The Director shall determine and authorize for use materials for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use which will not impair the quality of the spirits for fuel use. Spirits treated under this section will be considered rendered unfit for beverage use and eligible for withdrawal as fuel alcohol.(b) List. The Director will compile and issue periodically a list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use. The list will specify for each material (1) name and (2) quantity required to render spirits unfit for beverage use. The list may be obtained at no cost upon request from the ATF Distribution Center, 7943 Angus Court, Springfield, Virginia 22153. (c) Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are authorized to add to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following materials in the quantities specified. (1) 2 gallons or more of--(i) Gasoline or automotive gasoline (for use in engines which require unleaded gasoline Environmental Protection Agency and manufacturers specifications may require that unleaded gasoline be used to render the spirits unfit for beverage use).(ii) Kerosene,(iii) Deodorized kerosene,(iv) Rubber hydrocarbon solvent,(v) Methyl isobutyl ketone,(vi) Mixed isomers of nitropropane,(vii) Heptane, or, (viii) Any combination of (i) through (vii); or(2) \1/8\ ounce of denatonium benzoate N.F. and 2 gallons of isopropyl alcohol.(Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 (26 U.S.C. 5181))[T.D. ATF-198, 50 FR 8464, Mar. 1, 1985, as amended by T.D. ATF-249, 52 FR 5961, Feb. 27, 1987; T.D. ATF-442, 66 FR 12854, Mar. 1, 2001] Thanks, Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? There are several levels of denaturing -- fully denatured needs to be foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-) Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting. -K -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Go gettem Joe! we all wait a shivers for your results! From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:09:05 -0500 Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Jim, I could live with 2% kerosene in the ethanol. Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Kerosene works. It is neutral in the reaction and can be separated later by freezing the bio. (If you would want to??) From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:16:39 -0500 Hello Ken, Appreciate your input. (Just a quick summary in case anyone else is listening.) While denatured ethanol may be used on the premises where it was produced, it must be denatured for transport or use in vehicles off premises. It seems that BD would not render the spirits unfit for beverage use, so the question remains: Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters? (I don't see methanol on the list below, but it is my understanding that methanol is the denaturant in denatured ethanol available in hardware stores.) Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process of making ethyl esters? A list of the approved denaturants from the section, Authorized Materials, . for making ethanol unfit for beverage use from the (US) Code of Federal Regulations.) Sec. 19.1005 Authorized materials.(a) General. The Director shall determine and authorize for use materials for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use which will not impair the quality of the spirits for fuel use. Spirits treated under this section will be considered rendered unfit for beverage use and eligible for withdrawal as fuel alcohol.(b) List. The Director will compile and issue periodically a list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use. The list will specify for each material (1) name and (2) quantity required to render spirits unfit for beverage use. The list may be obtained at no cost upon request from the ATF Distribution Center, 7943 Angus Court, Springfield, Virginia 22153. (c) Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are authorized to add to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following materials in the quantities specified. (1) 2 gallons or more of--(i) Gasoline or automotive gasoline (for use in engines which require unleaded gasoline Environmental Protection Agency and manufacturers specifications may require that unleaded gasoline be used to render the spirits unfit for beverage use).(ii) Kerosene,(iii) Deodorized kerosene,(iv) Rubber hydrocarbon solvent,(v) Methyl isobutyl ketone,(vi) Mixed isomers of nitropropane,(vii) Heptane, or, (viii) Any combination of (i) through (vii); or(2) \1/8\ ounce of denatonium benzoate N.F. and 2 gallons of isopropyl alcohol.(Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 (26 U.S.C. 5181))[T.D. ATF-198, 50 FR 8464, Mar. 1, 1985, as amended by T.D. ATF-249, 52 FR 5961, Feb. 27, 1987; T.D. ATF-442, 66 FR 12854, Mar. 1, 2001] Thanks, Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? There are several levels of denaturing -- fully denatured needs to be foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-) Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting. -K -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Just don't use off road ( red) #1 or #2. less than 1% will result in a dark pink color for the entire batch. If #2 ULSD were used, you would gain a few btu's. - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPSmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:17 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Kerosene works. It is neutral in the reaction and can be separated later by freezing the bio. (If you would want to??) From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:16:39 -0500 Hello Ken, Appreciate your input. (Just a quick summary in case anyone else is listening.) While denatured ethanol may be used on the premises where it was produced, it must be denatured for transport or use in vehicles off premises. It seems that BD would not render the spirits unfit for beverage use, so the question remains: Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters? (I don't see methanol on the list below, but it is my understanding that methanol is the denaturant in denatured ethanol available in hardware stores.) Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process of making ethyl esters? A list of the approved denaturants from the section, Authorized Materials, . for making ethanol unfit for beverage use from the (US) Code of Federal Regulations.) Sec. 19.1005 Authorized materials.(a) General. The Director shall determine and authorize for use materials for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use which will not impair the quality of the spirits for fuel use. Spirits treated under this section will be considered rendered unfit for beverage use and eligible for withdrawal as fuel alcohol.(b) List. The Director will compile and issue periodically a list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use. The list will specify for each material (1) name and (2) quantity required to render spirits unfit for beverage use. The list may be obtained at no cost upon request from the ATF Distribution Center, 7943 Angus Court, Springfield, Virginia 22153. (c) Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are authorized to add to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following materials in the quantities specified. (1) 2 gallons or more of--(i) Gasoline or automotive gasoline (for use in engines which require unleaded gasoline Environmental Protection Agency and manufacturers specifications may require that unleaded gasoline be used to render the spirits unfit for beverage use).(ii) Kerosene,(iii) Deodorized kerosene,(iv) Rubber hydrocarbon solvent,(v) Methyl isobutyl ketone,(vi) Mixed isomers of nitropropane,(vii) Heptane, or, (viii) Any combination of (i) through (vii); or(2) \1/8\ ounce of denatonium benzoate N.F. and 2 gallons of isopropyl alcohol.(Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 (26 U.S.C. 5181))[T.D. ATF-198, 50 FR 8464, Mar. 1, 1985, as amended by T.D. ATF-249, 52 FR 5961, Feb. 27, 1987; T.D. ATF-442, 66 FR 12854, Mar. 1, 2001] Thanks, Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? There are several levels of denaturing -- fully denatured needs to be foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-) Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting. -K -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
On Nov 27, 2006, at 5:16 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters? Yes. I've used standard paint store denatured ethanol (hardware stores rarely have anhydrous) with methanol and methyl isobutyl ketone as denaturants with no problems. As you say, the methanol just helps out the reaction, and the MIBK is at such low levels as to not interfere. Be aware that the ethanol in such mixtures was probly produced from petroleum. Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process of making ethyl esters? (c) Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are authorized to add to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following materials in the quantities specified. (1) 2 gallons or more of-- (i) Gasoline or automotive gasoline That one is my personal favorite -- few denaturants are acceptable at only 2%. Gasoline is so nasty flavor-wise that it can be used at that concentration. In addition, most ethanol denatured that way happens to be produced from corn (not great, I know) rather than from ethylene, so you're more sure of carbon-neutrality. -K___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Jim, Add BD to denature . great idea. Still perfectly suitable for making ethyl esters. It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option to apply for different denaturants. The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? .. cut back 98+% on methanol use. Uh-oh Now YOU have me thinking . dangerous am using a table saw again today. Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be suitable for gas cars? Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe and Tom, Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H Jim - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
On 11/26/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim, Add BD to denature . great idea. Still perfectly suitable for making ethyl esters. It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option to apply for different denaturants. The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? I thought that biodiesel was non-toxic -- enough so that you could drink a 2% solution? It you're going to drink 98% ethanol, are you going to be concerned about a little biodiesel in there? I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either biodiesel or methanol. Z If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? .. cut back 98+% on methanol use. Uh-oh Now YOU have me thinking . dangerous am using a table saw again today. Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be suitable for gas cars? Tom - Original Message - *From:* JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe and Tom, Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H Jim - Original Message - *From:* Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? There are several levels of denaturing -- fully denatured needs to be foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-) Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting. -K___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Foul tasting eh. In my opinion, beer is foul tasting and thus would be a suitable denaturant but I suspect the regulatory bodies wouldn't agree with me. On 11/26/06, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? There are several levels of denaturing -- fully denatured needs to be foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-) Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
you cannot repeat CAN NOT let the mash boil when using a castor screen, it will allow watery droplets of stock to the top and contaminate the batch. and i think (need to test) if you let the mix settle long enough, the oil will settle through the alcohol and force the water to the bottom - i think. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe this little methanol price crisis will serve as a wake-up call ... Good to hear from you Hope you're on the mend Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol Hi Tom; I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method for drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Kurt, Thanks for the info. Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home. People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source. Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol production. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process. -Kurt Thomas Kelly wrote: It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood. Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas? Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol produced from it renewable and carbon neutral. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe this little methanol price crisis will serve as a wake-up call ... Good to hear from you Hope you're on the mend Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol Hi Tom; I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method for drying
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Joe and Tom, Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H Jim - Original Message - From: Thomas Kellymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Streetmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Tom: I can understand how a keg full of beer could present a problem. I'm sure however that you will find some volunteers from this list to help you out. Doug -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thomas Kelly Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:00 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe this little methanol price crisis will serve as a wake-up call ... Good to hear from you Hope you're on the mend Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol Hi Tom; I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method for drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Kurt, Thanks for the info. Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home. People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source. Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol production. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process. -Kurt Thomas Kelly wrote: It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood. Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas? Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol produced from it renewable and carbon neutral. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe this little methanol price crisis will serve as a wake-up call ... Good to hear from you Hope you're on the mend Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol Hi Tom; I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method for drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Kurt, Thanks for the info. Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home. People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source. Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol production. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process. -Kurt Thomas Kelly wrote: It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood. Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas? Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol produced from it renewable and carbon neutral. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
The Aussies no doubt! J;) Doug Turner wrote: Tom: I can understand how a keg full of beer could present a problem. I'm sure however that you will find some volunteers from this list to help you out. Doug -Original Message- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of *Thomas Kelly *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 2:00 PM *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Subject:* [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe this little methanol price crisis will serve as a wake-up call ... Good to hear from you Hope you're on the mend Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol Hi Tom; I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method for drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Kurt, Thanks for the info. Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home. People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source. Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol production. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process. -Kurt Thomas Kelly wrote: It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood. Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas? Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol produced from it renewable and carbon neutral. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Doug I like that help a mate out mentality. Tom - Original Message - From: Doug Turner To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Tom: I can understand how a keg full of beer could present a problem. I'm sure however that you will find some volunteers from this list to help you out. Doug -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thomas Kelly Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:00 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe this little methanol price crisis will serve as a wake-up call ... Good to hear from you Hope you're on the mend Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol Hi Tom; I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method for drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Kurt, Thanks for the info. Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home. People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source. Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol production. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process. -Kurt Thomas Kelly wrote: It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood. Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas? Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol produced from it renewable and carbon neutral. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
Re: [biofuel] Ethyl esters from alcohol? I need a chemist!!!
on 10/13/03 5:50 PM, shawstafari at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was looking at the ATF's formulas for denatured ethanol and have a question about ethyl esters. Under formula no. 32 (which is 100 gallons of ethanol, and 5 gallons of ethyl ether as denaturant) it states that it is authorized for use as a raw material for production of 'other ethyl esters.' Does this mean that one may use this formula to make ethyl esters using the formula and ethanol based products only, Not sure what you're asking here, but read on... or is it making ethyl esters in conjunction with vegetable oils? I wouldn't put much stock in the authorized uses lists (hair and scalp liniments, candy glazes, etc. etc.), and this particular formula would probably make OK biodiesel, albeit with some ether in there. However, this is an SDA, not a CDA (completely denatured alcohol), so you'd still need a permit. Probly not worth it, unless you have some special source of just this formula. I'd recommend a CDA 20, 200 proof. Whatever you use, be sure it's made from grain alcohol -- the hardware store formulas use ethanol synthesized from petroleum. -K Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ArdFIC/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ethyl esters
I strongly recommend you start off making methyl esters. Ethyl esters is much more difficult. Start off with small batches, maybe one litre, first with new oil (uncooked), then try titration and used oil. Keith What does the term titration mean? George Titration determines the amount of free fatty acids (FFAs) in the oil, and thus the amount of lye needed for the transesterification process to make biodiesel. Please see the resources at Journey to Forever for more information on titration: Make your own biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html Mike Pelly's biodiesel recipe http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.html Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] ethyl esters
Thank you, Keith. You're welcome. I am beginning to feel confident enough about this process to attempt my first BD test scale production with cooking oil from the market. I am also, however, trying to determine whether it will be possible to obtain BD from raw soybean oil from the factory, and exactly which details will be important within the process for this raw material. Can you define raw material? If it's merely virgin oil, no problem. If unrefined and undegummed, possible problem. I cannot obtain better that 96¡ ethanol commercially, which is why I jumped at the wet ethanol description. I strongly recommend you start off making methyl esters. Ethyl esters is much more difficult. Start off with small batches, maybe one litre, first with new oil (uncooked), then try titration and used oil. Use the single-stage base method (Pelly). When you're quite familiar with that, then move on to bigger, more complex things. Re ethyl esters, see the archives for the work being done by Ken Provost in this area. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Will return soon. Andy - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:51 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] ethyl esters You will pardon a newcomer's dumb questions. What is high-FFA?? (FFA?) Andy Hi Andy Questions aren't dumb - it's dumb not to ask questions, eh? FFA = free fatty acids. This is why you do titration in making biodiesel, to determine the amount of FFAs in the oil. Titration is not necessary if you're transesterifying new (fresh, virgin, uncooked) oil, which has a standard amount of FFAs. But FFA levels increase with the amount of time vegetable oil has been heated. Used cooking oil has higher FFA levels and then requires more of the reactive agents (lye and methanol or ethanol) than fresh oil does to complete the transesterification to make biodiesel. High levels of free fatty acids retard or stop the reaction. You have to determine the exact amount of lye (sodium hydroxide, NaOH, or potassium hydroxide, KOH) needed to neutralise the acids, and this is what titration tells you. Too much or too little lye will make soap, to the point of ruining the reaction. Thus, the higher the FFA level, the more sensitive the reaction, and the more precise you have to be, with titration and everything else, the more reactrive agents you'll need - and the lower will be the production rate. Most people find with used cooking oil that they generally get a titration of 2-3 ml, but some used oils can have much higher FFA levels than this - we've seen horrific titration levels of more than 9 ml. Horrific because FFAs are very bad for you - it's a very bad idea indeed to eat food from a restaurant that does that to their cooking oil. It's quite insructive: we got some oil from a cheapo roadside cafe that titrated at 6.2 ml, some from a mid-range eatery that measured 3.5 ml, and some from a very expensive gourmet restaurant that titrated at rather less than 1 ml. So there you go, you get what you pay for. Please see the resources at Journey to Forever for information on titration: Make your own biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html Mike Pelly's biodiesel recipe http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.html Why what I posted (below) about ethyl esters is interesting is that using this acid esterification method (instead of base transesterification) they found that high FFA levels produced higher production, the opposite of the usual case. Also, ethyl esters usually requires anhydrous (dry, not wet) ethanol. They didn't provide full details of their process however. Hope this helps. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 5:23 PM Subject: [biofuel] ethyl esters Interesting... so use high-FFA oil and wet ethanol? ... In this study, in-situ esterification of rice bran oil with ethanol (96%) was investigated using sulfuric acid. The effect of FFA content of rice bran oil and ethanol concentration on the yield and purity of obtained esters was investigated. The results showed that the ethyl ester content of products changed considerably with the FFA content of rice bran oil. The ester content of product increase from 36,6% to 78% with increasing the FFA content of oil from 14.5% to 81.0, respectively. Similarly, it was also observed that high amount of the esters products obtained from rice bran oils containing high FFA. In the second part of the study, in-situ esterification experiments were conducted
RE: [biofuel] ethyl esters
I was considering using the unrefined/unprocessed soybean oil contained in the paste-like byproduct from the oil plant, which they sell to soap-makers. There is still 40% pure oil in this product, and all I have to do is separate the oil from the solids by either filtering or distillation in alcohol (to be recovered). The price works out to a very attractive proposition. I have already seen in a test-tube the kind of separation I get in methanol, and it seems OK, should be able to recover the methanol and keep the oil for processing. Best regards Andy - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 5:02 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] ethyl esters Thank you, Keith. You're welcome. I am beginning to feel confident enough about this process to attempt my first BD test scale production with cooking oil from the market. I am also, however, trying to determine whether it will be possible to obtain BD from raw soybean oil from the factory, and exactly which details will be important within the process for this raw material. Can you define raw material? If it's merely virgin oil, no problem. If unrefined and undegummed, possible problem. I cannot obtain better that 96¡ ethanol commercially, which is why I jumped at the wet ethanol description. I strongly recommend you start off making methyl esters. Ethyl esters is much more difficult. Start off with small batches, maybe one litre, first with new oil (uncooked), then try titration and used oil. Use the single-stage base method (Pelly). When you're quite familiar with that, then move on to bigger, more complex things. Re ethyl esters, see the archives for the work being done by Ken Provost in this area. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Will return soon. Andy - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:51 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] ethyl esters You will pardon a newcomer's dumb questions. What is high-FFA?? (FFA?) Andy Hi Andy Questions aren't dumb - it's dumb not to ask questions, eh? FFA = free fatty acids. This is why you do titration in making biodiesel, to determine the amount of FFAs in the oil. Titration is not necessary if you're transesterifying new (fresh, virgin, uncooked) oil, which has a standard amount of FFAs. But FFA levels increase with the amount of time vegetable oil has been heated. Used cooking oil has higher FFA levels and then requires more of the reactive agents (lye and methanol or ethanol) than fresh oil does to complete the transesterification to make biodiesel. High levels of free fatty acids retard or stop the reaction. You have to determine the exact amount of lye (sodium hydroxide, NaOH, or potassium hydroxide, KOH) needed to neutralise the acids, and this is what titration tells you. Too much or too little lye will make soap, to the point of ruining the reaction. Thus, the higher the FFA level, the more sensitive the reaction, and the more precise you have to be, with titration and everything else, the more reactrive agents you'll need - and the lower will be the production rate. Most people find with used cooking oil that they generally get a titration of 2-3 ml, but some used oils can have much higher FFA levels than this - we've seen horrific titration levels of more than 9 ml. Horrific because FFAs are very bad for you - it's a very bad idea indeed to eat food from a restaurant that does that to their cooking oil. It's quite insructive: we got some oil from a cheapo roadside cafe that titrated at 6.2 ml, some from a mid-range eatery that measured 3.5 ml, and some from a very expensive gourmet restaurant that titrated at rather less than 1 ml. So there you go, you get what you pay for. Please see the resources at Journey to Forever for information on titration: Make your own biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html Mike Pelly's biodiesel recipe http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.html Why what I posted (below) about ethyl esters is interesting is that using this acid esterification method (instead of base transesterification) they found that high FFA levels produced higher production, the opposite of the usual case. Also, ethyl esters usually requires anhydrous (dry, not wet) ethanol. They didn't provide full details of their process however. Hope this helps. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 5:23 PM Subject: [biofuel] ethyl
Re: [biofuel] ethyl esters
- Original Message - From: Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 16:51 Subject: RE: [biofuel] ethyl esters Questions aren't dumb - it's dumb not to ask questions, eh? Good, I think I have one. High levels of free fatty acids retard or stop the reaction. You have to determine the exact amount of lye (sodium hydroxide, NaOH, or potassium hydroxide, KOH) needed to neutralise the acids, and this is what titration tells you. Didn't I read something about useing HCl or another acid to deal with high levels of FFAs? Greg H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ethyl esters
- Original Message - From: Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 16:51 Subject: RE: [biofuel] ethyl esters Questions aren't dumb - it's dumb not to ask questions, eh? Good, I think I have one. High levels of free fatty acids retard or stop the reaction. You have to determine the exact amount of lye (sodium hydroxide, NaOH, or potassium hydroxide, KOH) needed to neutralise the acids, and this is what titration tells you. Didn't I read something about useing HCl or another acid to deal with high levels of FFAs? Greg H. Check the archives, a couple of weeks ago. Ken Provost said he'd used it, but with bad production rates. He also previously posted information on lowering FFA levels using a lye solution, multiple steps, lowering the level by 1 ml of titration at a time. Ken uses an ethyl esters process that is intolerant of titration levels much higher than 1 ml. It has yet to be established if these methods of lowering FFA levels are time-energy-labour efficient for ordinary production of methyl esters, which is more tolerant of higher FFA levels. I'd say that with most WVO, which usually titrates at around 3 ml, and even up to 6 ml levels or higher, pre-processing the oil to lower FFA levels probably isn't worth the effort. I found it then took a lot of boiling to get rid of the water, for instance. But of course it depends on a lot of factors, you'd have to check it out for your own situation. Anyway, that's one reason I posted the original message - those guys were using an acid process with wet ethanol and getting higher production rates with high FFA levels. Dunno how they did it though, I was hoping somebody might be able to shed some light on that. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ethyl esters
Keith Addison writes: Ken uses an ethyl esters process that is intolerant of titration levels much higher than 1 ml. Above 1 ml titration, good results can be had by including some methanol in the mix. By using a 3:1 ethanol:methanol mixture, oil up to 3 ml titer works fine. It has yet to be established if these methods of lowering FFA levels (caustic refining) are time-energy-labour efficient for ordinary production of methyl esters, which is more tolerant of higher FFA levels. No, probly not, but they're definitely worth it if you want to use ethanol. I found it took a lot of boiling to get rid of the water, for instance. That's the beauty of cat litter -- soaks up a lot of water along with soap and even a little more FFA's. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ethyl esters
I strongly recommend you start off making methyl esters. Ethyl esters is much more difficult. Start off with small batches, maybe one litre, first with new oil (uncooked), then try titration and used oil. Keith What does the term titration mean? George Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] ethyl esters
You will pardon a newcomer's dumb questions. What is high-FFA?? (FFA?) Andy - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 5:23 PM Subject: [biofuel] ethyl esters Interesting... so use high-FFA oil and wet ethanol? ... In this study, in-situ esterification of rice bran oil with ethanol (96%) was investigated using sulfuric acid. The effect of FFA content of rice bran oil and ethanol concentration on the yield and purity of obtained esters was investigated. The results showed that the ethyl ester content of products changed considerably with the FFA content of rice bran oil. The ester content of product increase from 36,6% to 78% with increasing the FFA content of oil from 14.5% to 81.0, respectively. Similarly, it was also observed that high amount of the esters products obtained from rice bran oils containing high FFA. In the second part of the study, in-situ esterification experiments were conducted with 99.1% ethanol and these results were compared with 96% ethanol. It was seen that the increasing of ethanol concentration resulted in significant increasement in the yield of esters from low-acidity bran oils, i.e., the ester yield increased about 20% when the rice bran oil, having 14% FFA was treated with 99.1% ethanol. However, bran oils with high FFA contents used in the esterification reaction 99.1% ethanol did not effect practically the yield of ester. From Fatty acids ethyl esters from rice bran oil by in-situ esterification as a biodiesel fuel, Sevil Ozgl-Ycel, Selma Trkay Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] ethyl esters
You will pardon a newcomer's dumb questions. What is high-FFA?? (FFA?) Andy Hi Andy Questions aren't dumb - it's dumb not to ask questions, eh? FFA = free fatty acids. This is why you do titration in making biodiesel, to determine the amount of FFAs in the oil. Titration is not necessary if you're transesterifying new (fresh, virgin, uncooked) oil, which has a standard amount of FFAs. But FFA levels increase with the amount of time vegetable oil has been heated. Used cooking oil has higher FFA levels and then requires more of the reactive agents (lye and methanol or ethanol) than fresh oil does to complete the transesterification to make biodiesel. High levels of free fatty acids retard or stop the reaction. You have to determine the exact amount of lye (sodium hydroxide, NaOH, or potassium hydroxide, KOH) needed to neutralise the acids, and this is what titration tells you. Too much or too little lye will make soap, to the point of ruining the reaction. Thus, the higher the FFA level, the more sensitive the reaction, and the more precise you have to be, with titration and everything else, the more reactrive agents you'll need - and the lower will be the production rate. Most people find with used cooking oil that they generally get a titration of 2-3 ml, but some used oils can have much higher FFA levels than this - we've seen horrific titration levels of more than 9 ml. Horrific because FFAs are very bad for you - it's a very bad idea indeed to eat food from a restaurant that does that to their cooking oil. It's quite insructive: we got some oil from a cheapo roadside cafe that titrated at 6.2 ml, some from a mid-range eatery that measured 3.5 ml, and some from a very expensive gourmet restaurant that titrated at rather less than 1 ml. So there you go, you get what you pay for. Please see the resources at Journey to Forever for information on titration: Make your own biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html Mike Pelly's biodiesel recipe http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.html Why what I posted (below) about ethyl esters is interesting is that using this acid esterification method (instead of base transesterification) they found that high FFA levels produced higher production, the opposite of the usual case. Also, ethyl esters usually requires anhydrous (dry, not wet) ethanol. They didn't provide full details of their process however. Hope this helps. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 5:23 PM Subject: [biofuel] ethyl esters Interesting... so use high-FFA oil and wet ethanol? ... In this study, in-situ esterification of rice bran oil with ethanol (96%) was investigated using sulfuric acid. The effect of FFA content of rice bran oil and ethanol concentration on the yield and purity of obtained esters was investigated. The results showed that the ethyl ester content of products changed considerably with the FFA content of rice bran oil. The ester content of product increase from 36,6% to 78% with increasing the FFA content of oil from 14.5% to 81.0, respectively. Similarly, it was also observed that high amount of the esters products obtained from rice bran oils containing high FFA. In the second part of the study, in-situ esterification experiments were conducted with 99.1% ethanol and these results were compared with 96% ethanol. It was seen that the increasing of ethanol concentration resulted in significant increasement in the yield of esters from low-acidity bran oils, i.e., the ester yield increased about 20% when the rice bran oil, having 14% FFA was treated with 99.1% ethanol. However, bran oils with high FFA contents used in the esterification reaction 99.1% ethanol did not effect practically the yield of ester. From Fatty acids ethyl esters from rice bran oil by in-situ esterification as a biodiesel fuel, Sevil Ozgl-Ycel, Selma Trkay Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial
Re: [biofuel] ethyl esters
Free Fatty Acids Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://24.190.106.81:8383/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Andrs Stepkowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:41 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] ethyl esters You will pardon a newcomer's dumb questions. What is high-FFA?? (FFA?) Andy - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 5:23 PM Subject: [biofuel] ethyl esters Interesting... so use high-FFA oil and wet ethanol? ... In this study, in-situ esterification of rice bran oil with ethanol (96%) was investigated using sulfuric acid. The effect of FFA content of rice bran oil and ethanol concentration on the yield and purity of obtained esters was investigated. The results showed that the ethyl ester content of products changed considerably with the FFA content of rice bran oil. The ester content of product increase from 36,6% to 78% with increasing the FFA content of oil from 14.5% to 81.0, respectively. Similarly, it was also observed that high amount of the esters products obtained from rice bran oils containing high FFA. In the second part of the study, in-situ esterification experiments were conducted with 99.1% ethanol and these results were compared with 96% ethanol. It was seen that the increasing of ethanol concentration resulted in significant increasement in the yield of esters from low-acidity bran oils, i.e., the ester yield increased about 20% when the rice bran oil, having 14% FFA was treated with 99.1% ethanol. However, bran oils with high FFA contents used in the esterification reaction 99.1% ethanol did not effect practically the yield of ester. From Fatty acids ethyl esters from rice bran oil by in-situ esterification as a biodiesel fuel, Sevil Ozgl-Ycel, Selma Trkay Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ethyl esters
there are no dumb questions. just inquisitive idiots ;-) I'm one of the most inquisitive idiots you will ever meet. That's how I learn things. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://24.190.106.81:8383/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] ethyl esters Free Fatty Acids Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://24.190.106.81:8383/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Andrs Stepkowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:41 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] ethyl esters You will pardon a newcomer's dumb questions. What is high-FFA?? (FFA?) Andy - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 5:23 PM Subject: [biofuel] ethyl esters Interesting... so use high-FFA oil and wet ethanol? ... In this study, in-situ esterification of rice bran oil with ethanol (96%) was investigated using sulfuric acid. The effect of FFA content of rice bran oil and ethanol concentration on the yield and purity of obtained esters was investigated. The results showed that the ethyl ester content of products changed considerably with the FFA content of rice bran oil. The ester content of product increase from 36,6% to 78% with increasing the FFA content of oil from 14.5% to 81.0, respectively. Similarly, it was also observed that high amount of the esters products obtained from rice bran oils containing high FFA. In the second part of the study, in-situ esterification experiments were conducted with 99.1% ethanol and these results were compared with 96% ethanol. It was seen that the increasing of ethanol concentration resulted in significant increasement in the yield of esters from low-acidity bran oils, i.e., the ester yield increased about 20% when the rice bran oil, having 14% FFA was treated with 99.1% ethanol. However, bran oils with high FFA contents used in the esterification reaction 99.1% ethanol did not effect practically the yield of ester. From Fatty acids ethyl esters from rice bran oil by in-situ esterification as a biodiesel fuel, Sevil Ozgl-Ycel, Selma Trkay Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] ethyl esters
Thank you, Keith. I am beginning to feel confident enough about this process to attempt my first BD test scale production with cooking oil from the market. I am also, however, trying to determine whether it will be possible to obtain BD from raw soybean oil from the factory, and exactly which details will be important within the process for this raw material. I cannot obtain better that 96¡ ethanol commercially, which is why I jumped at the wet ethanol description. Will return soon. Andy - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:51 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] ethyl esters You will pardon a newcomer's dumb questions. What is high-FFA?? (FFA?) Andy Hi Andy Questions aren't dumb - it's dumb not to ask questions, eh? FFA = free fatty acids. This is why you do titration in making biodiesel, to determine the amount of FFAs in the oil. Titration is not necessary if you're transesterifying new (fresh, virgin, uncooked) oil, which has a standard amount of FFAs. But FFA levels increase with the amount of time vegetable oil has been heated. Used cooking oil has higher FFA levels and then requires more of the reactive agents (lye and methanol or ethanol) than fresh oil does to complete the transesterification to make biodiesel. High levels of free fatty acids retard or stop the reaction. You have to determine the exact amount of lye (sodium hydroxide, NaOH, or potassium hydroxide, KOH) needed to neutralise the acids, and this is what titration tells you. Too much or too little lye will make soap, to the point of ruining the reaction. Thus, the higher the FFA level, the more sensitive the reaction, and the more precise you have to be, with titration and everything else, the more reactrive agents you'll need - and the lower will be the production rate. Most people find with used cooking oil that they generally get a titration of 2-3 ml, but some used oils can have much higher FFA levels than this - we've seen horrific titration levels of more than 9 ml. Horrific because FFAs are very bad for you - it's a very bad idea indeed to eat food from a restaurant that does that to their cooking oil. It's quite insructive: we got some oil from a cheapo roadside cafe that titrated at 6.2 ml, some from a mid-range eatery that measured 3.5 ml, and some from a very expensive gourmet restaurant that titrated at rather less than 1 ml. So there you go, you get what you pay for. Please see the resources at Journey to Forever for information on titration: Make your own biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html Mike Pelly's biodiesel recipe http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.html Why what I posted (below) about ethyl esters is interesting is that using this acid esterification method (instead of base transesterification) they found that high FFA levels produced higher production, the opposite of the usual case. Also, ethyl esters usually requires anhydrous (dry, not wet) ethanol. They didn't provide full details of their process however. Hope this helps. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 5:23 PM Subject: [biofuel] ethyl esters Interesting... so use high-FFA oil and wet ethanol? ... In this study, in-situ esterification of rice bran oil with ethanol (96%) was investigated using sulfuric acid. The effect of FFA content of rice bran oil and ethanol concentration on the yield and purity of obtained esters was investigated. The results showed that the ethyl ester content of products changed considerably with the FFA content of rice bran oil. The ester content of product increase from 36,6% to 78% with increasing the FFA content of oil from 14.5% to 81.0, respectively. Similarly, it was also observed that high amount of the esters products obtained from rice bran oils containing high FFA. In the second part of the study, in-situ esterification experiments were conducted with 99.1% ethanol and these results were compared with 96% ethanol. It was seen that the increasing of ethanol concentration resulted in significant increasement in the yield of esters from low-acidity bran oils, i.e., the ester yield increased about 20% when the rice bran oil, having 14% FFA was treated with 99.1% ethanol. However, bran oils with high FFA contents used in the esterification reaction 99.1% ethanol did not effect practically the yield of ester. From Fatty acids ethyl esters from rice bran oil by in-situ esterification as a biodiesel fuel, Sevil Ozgl-Ycel, Selma Trkay Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel
