Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Karl Kuras wrote: Now your main gripe seems to be with the fact that you can't just be in a room and say I want to do X. This was at first mainly a technical problem of doing pathfinding routines (notice that later Sierra and Lucasarts games all take care of this for you automatically through mouse controls. KQ1 was meant to be played with a joystick or keyboard, so you didn't have a mouse to point at stuff and intereact with it through icons (granted the Amiga and I believe Mac versions both had mouse support but they were just ports made at a later time. When Maniac Mansion is released these problems are dealt with). I have to stop you there -- any game requiring text input couldn't possibly have been meant to be played entirely with a joystick. While it was lack of foresight not to create an icon-based system controllable with the joystick, not changing that formula until 1991 is inexcusable. (Tass Times in Tonetown, in 1986, is the first game I can remember that perfected this. You could indeed play the entire IF with a joystick.) Also, the old descriptions in text adventures were replaced by graphics. This changed the nature of the puzzle solving from the old ok, what items are listed in the descrption and let's play with those to what items are drawn with any kind of detail and let's play with those. Part of the I can accept this argument as what they were going for, but since the graphics were 160x100 low-res, there wasn't much room for detail and I think they missed the mark. It didn't work, initially. Later releases didn't improve on this because they used the higher res of 320x200 to just draw smaller objects. appeal, especially in those early games was to try to find the items of interest, like watching an old detective movie and spotting which character was missing from the scene, because he was off murdering someone. Text adventures just had to tell you what happened and give it away or not tell you making it unfair. You haven't played enough text adventures. Even the original classic you are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike was like you describe -- a single room was described slightly differently than the others. Witness also Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where a description changes in a subtle way. And those are just some small Infocom examples. I haven't played much IF to completion, but I have played more Sierra games to completion and at the end of almost every one I have questioned the use of my time. :) Despite the fact that this post is coming out a bit disjointed, another great addition of the Sierra style game was that you could finally have something besides straight choose your own adventure style gameplay. Action sequences were added to the games (Conquest of Camelot being probably the best example of this), which began to bridge gaps between genres and giving much more realistic feeling experiences, especially since you could now actually see scenes played out that would otherwise just be described. Yes, but you've jumped too far ahead. Those games (post-1991) are out of the scope of this debate as they allow full mouse control. Besides, the action sequences were a bit clunky IMO -- better than nothing, I guess, but worse than even a bad pure action game. Despite my writing, I'm not specifically declaring that Sierra games sucked. :-) I wouldn't have played so many (about 8 to completion) if I didn't enjoy *something*... What I'm trying to understand is why they survived for so long when they were clearly a novelty and not a true innovation to the IF (or any interactive storytelling) genre. I think you hit the nail on the head when you wrote more accessible to younger audiences that were quickly bored by pages and pages of text. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] Not Fair
What, if anything, can I do about it? I know, probably nothing, right? Did you talk to the seller and ask why the auction was ended early? If he replies that he sold it to someone who made him an outside-eBay offer, you can forward that to Rules Safety and possibly get both him and the buyer (if he can be identified) in trouble for auction interference. A good trick is to use a secondary e-mail account so he can't connect it to your bid. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] Heads Up
C.E. Forman stated: BTW, did you guys notice that Leather Goddesses shirt as well? I was tempted on that one, but wasn't sure where it came from and it also had a nasty stain. But was it authentic, perhaps coming from a NZT contest? That one was authentic, I've talked to both the buyer and seller and gotten close-up, detailed scans. Infocom initially sold them for $9.95 from a special order form that came in the LGoP package. I can't find the auction, so would this be the A dirty mind is a terrible thing to waste shirt? I tried ordering one of those from my copy of LGOP. After many months (possibly even a year), I finally got my check back with a note saying they didn't have any more. They also explained the long delay being that they moved from the East Coast to the West. I guess it would have been 1989, then. I was most disappointed. I think I tried ordering the Babel Fish t-shirt at the same time with the same results. -- Lee K. Seitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
[SWCollect] re: Not Fair
The guy replied to my email. Ebay's site is so confusing now...how do I go about reporting this guy? Also, what will they do to him for it? He currently has a bunch of auctions up, but they're ending tomorrow I believe. Also, is this something that the list members are interested in? If not, I apologize. Stuart -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 5:53 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Question from eBay Member hi stuart this item became so popular at first i had 3 offers and 1 payment for it! but as it was bid on i didn't think i could remove it from auction, then some guy offered me $250 for 5 games inc bud tucker. so i checked with ebay and found i could remove items . im truly sorry for any hope brought out of the game i had NO idea it was going to get such a response especially a $250 one! sadly he paid lastnight thru paypal while i was waiting a reply from him (not payment) so i cannot accept any private offers for it:( plz understand i am still fairly new at this game and $250 is a lot of cash for 5games. spooky -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Starting in 1986, I played most of these games on the Atari ST and/or Amiga. I seem to recall the graphics being improved over the Apple/PC/C-64 versions, and I recall using a mouse. Has anybody compared the originals to the Amiga/ST ports? That could have a big effect on Jim's technology concerns. I know that Karl is a big Amiga fan, and they might have had two very different experiences playing the same game. Hugh ---Original Message--- From: John Romero [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01/21/03 01:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1 But the animations were incredibly crude because the sprites were inexplicably limited to half-horizontal-resolution sprites! And so were the backgrounds! I originally thought this would be for a speed increase or storage requirement decrease -- but on closer examination, the text boxes that pop up show that the game is running in 320x200, which is not half-horiz-res. And since the game backgrounds were all vector graphics, it would not have taken up that much more space to hold 320x200 coordinates. It drove me nuts to see, game after game, graphics created and displayed at 160x200 running in a 320x200 graphics mode! I believe the reason why the graphics on the PC were so low res is because they were merely ports of the Apple II games to start with. Then, when they moved over to developing the titles on the PC, they didn't change their engine technology because that resolution was the most compatible with the C-64 and Apple II systems of the day. The Apple II version of King's Quest was one of the early double-resolution 16-color games and subsequent Sierra adventures used that graphics mode. Double-res on the Apple II was 160x192 with 16 colors. Mixed-mode graphics on the C64 was 160x200 with 4 colors (from a 16-color palette) per 4x8 character block. It was just a logical decision to use the same assets and resolution as the other popular platforms. - John -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
I remember playing the Atari ST version of Black Cauldron and it was a straight port of the 16-color Apple II version. - John -Original Message- From: Karl Kuras [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 2:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1 Actually, I hate to say this, but until the 256 color versions of the games appeared, the Amiga and ST ports were 1-1 conversions of the PC games. No improvements whatsoever... in fact many of them ran slower. This actually goes to the issue of the lowest common denominator argument made earlier. They really did just cater to the lowest graphical platform (Apple II for several years until I believe Space Quest III or KQ 4 came out... not sure which was first). And then ported those libraries straight to other systems. As far as I know the C64 had no Quest games at all. I found a catalog listing KQ1 for the C64 once, but this was then corrected in later catalogs and never mentioned again. Not sure why this change was made, but ultimately it doesn't matter. Another side issue, if memory serves me correctly the original version of KQ1 (for the PC Jr.) did not have mouse support... this was only added later for those platforms that did have mice like the Amiga and ST. Can someone confirm this? Karl Kuras - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 12:39 PM Subject: Re: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1 Starting in 1986, I played most of these games on the Atari ST and/or Amiga. I seem to recall the graphics being improved over the Apple/PC/C-64 versions, and I recall using a mouse. Has anybody compared the originals to the Amiga/ST ports? That could have a big effect on Jim's technology concerns. I know that Karl is a big Amiga fan, and they might have had two very different experiences playing the same game. Hugh ---Original Message--- From: John Romero [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01/21/03 01:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1 But the animations were incredibly crude because the sprites were inexplicably limited to half-horizontal-resolution sprites! And so were the backgrounds! I originally thought this would be for a speed increase or storage requirement decrease -- but on closer examination, the text boxes that pop up show that the game is running in 320x200, which is not half-horiz-res. And since the game backgrounds were all vector graphics, it would not have taken up that much more space to hold 320x200 coordinates. It drove me nuts to see, game after game, graphics created and displayed at 160x200 running in a 320x200 graphics mode! I believe the reason why the graphics on the PC were so low res is because they were merely ports of the Apple II games to start with. Then, when they moved over to developing the titles on the PC, they didn't change their engine technology because that resolution was the most compatible with the C-64 and Apple II systems of the day. The Apple II version of King's Quest was one of the early double-resolution 16-color games and subsequent Sierra adventures used that graphics mode. Double-res on the Apple II was 160x192 with 16 colors. Mixed-mode graphics on the C64 was 160x200 with 4 colors (from a 16-color palette) per 4x8 character block. It was just a logical decision to use the same assets and resolution as the other popular platforms. - John -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail- [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at:
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Sadly, most PC-to-Amiga conversions (I've never used an ST, sadly) were slower than the original. PC programmers were contracted to port to Amiga instead of hiring Amiga people to do the conversions. Or, if Amiga people were contracted, they had a hard time porting 8086 assembler over to 68000 assembler, or did it 1-to-1 where they didn't try to optimize any code (use additional registers, etc.) Or the people porting to Amiga simply didn't understand Amiga graphics hardware. This is so true... too many games were horrid on the Amiga for this very reason... probably a big contributor to the system's virtual non-existence in the US. Lucasarts was the big exception to this. their ports of MI2 and Indy 4 (despite the huge disk swapping issues for the harddriveless like me) were wonderful demonstrations of just how good a game could look in 32 colors. King's Quest 4 was the first SCI system using 320x200 16-color graphics. They built the SCI system at the same time they were writing/scripting KQ4, so they had two developlment tracks for it: AGI and SCI. Both versions were released, but the AGI version is fairly rare. Screenshots of both versions are here: http://www.mobygames.com/game/shots/gameId,129/ I didn't know that the SCI version was rare... the Amiga and ST ports both used that graphic set... most likely due to the porting happening later. Karl Kuras -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Karl Kuras wrote: I didn't know that the SCI version was rare... the Amiga and ST ports both used that graphic set... most likely due to the porting happening later. No, the AGI version was rare. The SCI version was pimped heavily because it was the first interpreter to allow external music devices (and had a decent score to support them). -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] re: Not Fair
Here's a shortcut to the Rules Safety reporting page (a good one to bookmark): http://pages.ebay.com/help/basics/select-RS.html The topic I'd use is Questionable Content - Listing Issues - Fee Circumvention. Include the full header from the message he sent to you. Depending on whether he's been reported for this before, he may get off with just a warning, or he may be temporarily suspended. - Original Message - From: Stuart Feldhamer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:10 AM Subject: [SWCollect] re: Not Fair The guy replied to my email. Ebay's site is so confusing now...how do I go about reporting this guy? Also, what will they do to him for it? He currently has a bunch of auctions up, but they're ending tomorrow I believe. Also, is this something that the list members are interested in? If not, I apologize. Stuart -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 5:53 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Question from eBay Member hi stuart this item became so popular at first i had 3 offers and 1 payment for it! but as it was bid on i didn't think i could remove it from auction, then some guy offered me $250 for 5 games inc bud tucker. so i checked with ebay and found i could remove items . im truly sorry for any hope brought out of the game i had NO idea it was going to get such a response especially a $250 one! sadly he paid lastnight thru paypal while i was waiting a reply from him (not payment) so i cannot accept any private offers for it:( plz understand i am still fairly new at this game and $250 is a lot of cash for 5games. spooky -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] Heads Up
I can't find the auction, so would this be the A dirty mind is a terrible thing to waste shirt? Yeah, that's the one. Here's the auction, while eBay still has it: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=2152015718category=153 -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Jim Leonard schrieb: At MobyGames we go over this every so often; people keep wanting to somehow *define* the words adventure game to mean Sierra games (the Quest games, etc.) Well, I can imagine. I remember having vivid discussions over at comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure over this http://www.gamingnexus.com/article.asp?ID=2 and this http://fourfatchicks.com/Rants/Commentary/Contemplation.shtml article with the respective editors. When you read through them you'll note that for these people adventure gaming started with Sierra and Lucas. Before that was nothing. Beside documenting pretty much ignorance from people who publish articles, this also shows that there still is no public appreciation for the roots of computer gaming, not even among those who like to play games. Old movies are considered classics and are watched, old games are just obsolete. Except for, well, us and a few others. Others want to actually create a new genre specifically for Sierra-like games. As official taxonomer for MobyGames, they will forever remain in our system as what they really are: Interactive Fiction with Graphics. This puts them in the same category as Mask of the Sun, Arthur: The Quest for Excalibur, etc. Because when you get down to it, all of the games Sierra put out from 1984 to 1991 that required text input are exactly that -- interactive fiction with graphics. The text parser may be bad, but it's still a parser and still required to complete the game. Entrance into a new room/area doesn't always print out a text description, but you do get text updates of events/locations/dialogue. So it's a gimmicky variant. Well, yes, as a matter of fact that would be correct. Would you put the later Sierra adventures, which were entirely mouse driven IIRC, and those from Legend in the same category? It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition. Marco -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] Heads Up
C.E. Forman schrieb: I can't find the auction, so would this be the A dirty mind is a terrible thing to waste shirt? Yeah, that's the one. Here's the auction, while eBay still has it: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=2152015718category=153 Indeed, that's it. But having just looked at it I probably mixed it with another one and all I can remember of the latter was that the description said it had glue stain on it. I think it was a Zork T-shirt. BTW, the LGOP shirt didn't go out for much. I'd have thought people would go crazy over it. Infidel -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
Jim Leonard schrieb: At MobyGames we go over this every so often; people keep wanting to somehow *define* the words adventure game to mean Sierra games (the Quest games, etc.) I always called that type of game a Graphic Adventure, mainly because it's what Lucasarts put as a label on Indiana Jones and the last crusade (they had two versions, the Action game and the Graphic Adventure). Guess that makes more sense then any other label, because it's an adventure that is played out in a graphic enviornment... text adventures with graphics are just that, text adventures with graphics, they could really exist without the images. Karl Kuras -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] Heads Up
Indeed, that's it. But having just looked at it I probably mixed it with another one and all I can remember of the latter was that the description said it had glue stain on it. I think it was a Zork T-shirt. That was a sweatshirt from one of Infocom's Bring Your Own Brain parties they used to hold at the Natural History Museum in Chicago. I won that one, and based on the aged look and the seller (Steve Panak of Antic magazine) I'm convinced it's authentic. BTW, the LGOP shirt didn't go out for much. I'd have thought people would go crazy over it. eBay had an outage at the time of the close. I had a snipe set up but it couldn't go through. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
