Re: [SWCollect] Sam Max II
Hugh Falk wrote: A problem with the games industry right now is that the top 25 games each year make a majority of the money. #1 - #5 often selling millions of units. The rest of the top 25 selling several hundred thousand. Many of the rest often lose money. This is turning the games industry into a hit-driven market (like the movie industry). The trend is to see less games being made and hoping for more profit on each. EA is making fewer games but more revenue: 2000 = 68 SKUS with $1.3B in revenue, 2002 = 58 SKUs with $2.5B Is it okay with you if I repost this information on another forum? I can quote you or keep it anonymous, but I'd love to post this info somewhere else (where there is a raging discussion going on over Sam and Max). -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: Re: [SWCollect] Sam Max II
On MMOLRPG's -- once you get roped into one for a while, and come out of the other side, it's not easy to let yourself get into another. You don't want to - too much time. Same for RPG's in general I guess. For me, I just raise the bar - the game has to completely blow me away for me to justify the time to get into it. Those games are very few and far between, thankfully. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Re: [SWCollect] Sam Max II Well, I don't have the inside track on gaming marketing, and EA profits and such, but... Hugh said, This is turning the games industry into a hit-driven market (like the movie industry). Turning?! I seem to think that it's been this way in the games industry for a LONG time. Back when Wing Commander came out, remember all of the clones that came out right after?--DOZENS of 'em! I always thought that it was just looked at as a 'cash cow' genre by the industry, and they beat it to death, until noone wanted to play space adventure games anymore. What about Wolfenstein and Doom--SURELY John has some insight into this--how many of those REALLY LOUSY FPS games did we buy, just waiting for Doom 2 to come out? The industry then chewed up and spit out the FPS genre, until it got stale--every now and then someone would get innovative, and revitalize the genre (Duke Nukem, Half-Life, Deus Ex), but then the slump sets in, and people don't want YET ANOTHER FPS! MMORPGs seem to be following the same trend. I think that 10 years from now there will still be hardcore pockets, but *MOST* people will consider online RPS's dead, and move on to the next innovative concept. But that means that there is STILL room for the independent publisher to come up with the 'next big thing', and either start a new market, or get rich when they're bought by EA or MS! Get your game design docs back out of the drawer, guys! There's still hope for being millionaires yet! Joe From: Jim Leonard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2004/03/22 Mon PM 12:39:14 EST To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Sam Max II Hugh Falk wrote: A problem with the games industry right now is that the top 25 games each year make a majority of the money. #1 - #5 often selling millions of units. The rest of the top 25 selling several hundred thousand. Many of the rest often lose money. This is turning the games industry into a hit-driven market (like the movie industry). The trend is to see less games being made and hoping for more profit on each. EA is making fewer games but more revenue: 2000 = 68 SKUS with $1.3B in revenue, 2002 = 58 SKUs with $2.5B Is it okay with you if I repost this information on another forum? I can quote you or keep it anonymous, but I'd love to post this info somewhere else (where there is a raging discussion going on over Sam and Max). -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
RE: Re: [SWCollect] Sam Max II
It's been a hit-driven business since PC games started selling in the millions of units, but back then until a few years ago most publishers were releasing a lot of clones in the hopes of capturing some of that market share. Now they're mindset is to save money and not release so many games and spend that extra money on polish and production - thus truly transforming the industry into pure hit-driven. - John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 10:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: [SWCollect] Sam Max II Well, I don't have the inside track on gaming marketing, and EA profits and such, but... Hugh said, This is turning the games industry into a hit-driven market (like the movie industry). Turning?! I seem to think that it's been this way in the games industry for a LONG time. Back when Wing Commander came out, remember all of the clones that came out right after?--DOZENS of 'em! I always thought that it was just looked at as a 'cash cow' genre by the industry, and they beat it to death, until noone wanted to play space adventure games anymore. What about Wolfenstein and Doom--SURELY John has some insight into this--how many of those REALLY LOUSY FPS games did we buy, just waiting for Doom 2 to come out? The industry then chewed up and spit out the FPS genre, until it got stale--every now and then someone would get innovative, and revitalize the genre (Duke Nukem, Half-Life, Deus Ex), but then the slump sets in, and people don't want YET ANOTHER FPS! MMORPGs seem to be following the same trend. I think that 10 years from now there will still be hardcore pockets, but *MOST* people will consider online RPS's dead, and move on to the next innovative concept. But that means that there is STILL room for the independent publisher to come up with the 'next big thing', and either start a new market, or get rich when they're bought by EA or MS! Get your game design docs back out of the drawer, guys! There's still hope for being millionaires yet! Joe From: Jim Leonard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2004/03/22 Mon PM 12:39:14 EST To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Sam Max II Hugh Falk wrote: A problem with the games industry right now is that the top 25 games each year make a majority of the money. #1 - #5 often selling millions of units. The rest of the top 25 selling several hundred thousand. Many of the rest often lose money. This is turning the games industry into a hit-driven market (like the movie industry). The trend is to see less games being made and hoping for more profit on each. EA is making fewer games but more revenue: 2000 = 68 SKUS with $1.3B in revenue, 2002 = 58 SKUs with $2.5B Is it okay with you if I repost this information on another forum? I can quote you or keep it anonymous, but I'd love to post this info somewhere else (where there is a raging discussion going on over Sam and Max). -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
RE: [SWCollect] Sam Max II
Yes, PC development is definitely cheaper on average. There are always exceptions (again Blizzard, Id, Half Life 2, MMORPGs, etc.) But even these budgets can be dwarfed by their console counterparts. Especially because console developers have to pay for dev kits (Sony's started at $20K each...now down to $10K) on top of high end PCs. Then you have to pay a fee of ~$7 per unit to Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo. Then you usually have to pay special manufacturing/mastering costs (Nintendo is the worst at this). Then, on top of all this, the hardware manufacturer has the right to refuse to publish your game, and you can see how it is just too expensive and risky for a small group to publish a console game. The PC has a much lower cost of entry for a new developer. If you have even a reasonably small development team (say 20 people) for three years, your dev costs alone are going to be around $10M. Add on marketing costs and you better have a great game or you won't turn a profit. Hugh -Original Message- From: Marco Thorek [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 4:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Sam Max II Hugh Falk schrieb: Well, I don't really track PC data too closely anymore since I'm doing only console games. However, 250K units on a console would usually be a failure. The only reason you can get away with such small sales on the PC is the lower cost of PC titles (don't have to pay Sony royalties and don't need special dev kits for example). AAA console games are going to hope to sell 500K units or more. PC development is cheaper than console development? Popular opinion has it that console development is cheaper as you have a standardized platform to develop for. So that's wrong? It would be really cool if you and John could give us more details on how the costs of development add up. How much goes into the actual production, advertisements, licenses, box, manual, CD pressing, etc., as a lot of this eludes me. For example, I can't understand how a developer or a publisher can develop a title for three years or more and expect to make a profit from it (Republic: The Revolution, Duke Nukem Forever). Marco -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Sam Max II
Hugh Falk wrote: (generously) $20 per unit profit, the need to sell 250,000 units to break even. This would require it to be a moderate success in the PC realm. That is depressing. Is that standard across the industry right now? I can't think of many titles selling 250,000 units in today's market that aren't The Sims or Barbie's Pet Rescue. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
RE: [SWCollect] Sam Max II
Well, I don't really track PC data too closely anymore since I'm doing only console games. However, 250K units on a console would usually be a failure. The only reason you can get away with such small sales on the PC is the lower cost of PC titles (don't have to pay Sony royalties and don't need special dev kits for example). AAA console games are going to hope to sell 500K units or more. In total, The Sims (series) has probably sold over 10 million units by now (I've stopped counting). Blizzard and Id games sell several million units each, too. I don't think any major publisher would even start a PC game project if they didn't hope for more than 250K units. Of course, you can do titles for smaller budgets, but it's unlikely to happen at a major company like Lucas. A problem with the games industry right now is that the top 25 games each year make a majority of the money. #1 - #5 often selling millions of units. The rest of the top 25 selling several hundred thousand. Many of the rest often lose money. This is turning the games industry into a hit-driven market (like the movie industry). The trend is to see less games being made and hoping for more profit on each. EA is making fewer games but more revenue: 2000 = 68 SKUS with $1.3B in revenue, 2002 = 58 SKUs with $2.5B Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 6:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Sam Max II Hugh Falk wrote: (generously) $20 per unit profit, the need to sell 250,000 units to break even. This would require it to be a moderate success in the PC realm. That is depressing. Is that standard across the industry right now? I can't think of many titles selling 250,000 units in today's market that aren't The Sims or Barbie's Pet Rescue. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Sam Max II
I signed it (I'm signature #20002 ;-) and I suggest we all do the same and spread the word. My children's names are Sam and Max, and I'm not so sure that's a coincidence! ;-D With over 20,000 signatures already, surely that would show a business case? Hugh, comments? Dan Chisarick wrote: Appears to have been shelved: http://lucasarts.com/press/releases/85.html An appeal from the masses for reconsideration: http://www.petitiononline.com/LACOSAM/ Sigh. OK everyone, back to your 3D shooters and RTS eye candy... -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
RE: [SWCollect] Sam Max II
Well it certainly couldn't hurt to have as many signatures as possible. However, based on the wording of the press release, it's unlikely to be an emotional decision, and I'm guessing we won't get around 500,000 + signatures to guarantee profit. The decision will likely be based on the ability to turn a profit...maybe even on just a going forward basis. I don't know how much they've already spent on SM. I also don't know the total budget, but let's take a realistic $5M for a (non-Blizzard or id) PC title (all inclusive -- dev costs, marketing, etc.). Assuming they make (generously) $20 per unit profit, the need to sell 250,000 units to break even. This would require it to be a moderate success in the PC realm. As for the petition, taking into account spoofing, and some % of people saying they'd buy who never do, I expect they'll only count on 50% of the petition numbers to turn into actual sales. The petition numbers are only the hard core audience...they would need to believe that this is just the tip of the iceberg, and that this game will appeal to a broader audience (ideally mass market) to make up the numbers. They obviously don't believe it (and previous adventure game sales haven't helped the cause), and that's why they pulled the plug. Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 9:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Sam Max II I signed it (I'm signature #20002 ;-) and I suggest we all do the same and spread the word. My children's names are Sam and Max, and I'm not so sure that's a coincidence! ;-D With over 20,000 signatures already, surely that would show a business case? Hugh, comments? Dan Chisarick wrote: Appears to have been shelved: http://lucasarts.com/press/releases/85.html An appeal from the masses for reconsideration: http://www.petitiononline.com/LACOSAM/ Sigh. OK everyone, back to your 3D shooters and RTS eye candy... -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
