date:20010412


In a message dated Thu, 12 Apr 2001  1:47:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Kurt Bray" 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 It is just my issue, or does everyone's new May issue of TFNews have 
Garry's editorial from April apparently erroneously repeated on the last 
page instead of a discussion of the proposed IAAF rule changes that the 
title promises?

I'm kinda hoping that I have a one-of-a-kind misprint, like a mis-struck 
coin, that might somehow be worth big money. ;-)

Gee--you mean somebody actually reads my crap? We won't go into the 3-Stoogian 
sequence of file-swapping errors that led to this end. And just for you guys, soyou 
don't have to wait another month (the 3 of you who subscribe), here's the text of the 
file as written (doesn't mean it won't change before it finally sees the light of day!)

THREE MAJOR RULE CHANGES are wending their way through the IAAF process. It would 
have been a bit of journalistic good fortune to be able to say that theyre the good, 
the bad and the ugly, but in reality theyre the good, the so-so and the ugly. The 
IAAF is well-intentioned, trying to improve presentation, but I dont think the 
proposals were particularly well thought-out.
First, the good. That would be the no-false-start proposal. Just as U.S. high schools 
and colleges have done for years: break once and youre gone. In this day and age, 
when presentationboth in-person and for TVs sakeis so important, having meets 
thrown off schedule because of antics in the blocks just isnt acceptable. The 
all-time classic in that category was the mens 100-yard heats at the 74 NCAA 
Championships: 7 heats produced no fewer than 18 false starts, throwing the meet more 
than an hour behind. The next season the collegians went to the NFS rule (one of the 
few bits of meet conduct the NCAA has gotten right in the last few years) and has 
never looked back.
There have been 26 mens century finals under the new system and only two sprinters 
have ever been bounced from the final for a false start. This is a good rule, and the 
IAAF has been long overdue in adopting it. And cutting back the multi-eventerswho 
will flat-out admit that the extra one they currently get is a license to attempt to 
stealto just one falsie instead of two will also be a godsend.
My one caveat would be that at least in the beginning the NFS rule should not be used 
in conjunction with FS-detection blocks, at least not unless starters are given the 
latitude to be a bit more lenient on inadvertent motion. The jumpy blocks used at the 
99 Worlds in conjunction with an NFS rule could produce some mega-ugly DQs.
The so-so proposal is the one that would reduce the number of attempts in the throws 
and horizontal jumps from 6 to 4. In terms of making for a competition with more 
viewing appeal, I have to agree with it. In far too many major meets theres just a 
lot of jumping and throwing that really doesnt mean anything, and as often as not, it 
comes in the later rounds. In Sydney, for example, looking at the 96 jumpers and 
throwers who had a half-dozen attempts each, 17 got their marks in the first round, 13 
in the second, 33 in the third, only 5 in the fourth, 18 in the fifth and 10 in the 
sixth. Throwing out rounds 4 and 5, that means that 86% of the Sydney people would 
have gotten the same mark even in a 4-round system.
On the negative side, this rule means that some of the big names will get less 
exposure, and thats not good for the sport. Tokyo 91Lewis and Powells memorable 
duel stretches out over only 4 jumps instead of 6? Bad idea. If they want to reduce 
the overall number of jumps/throws from 60 to 48, get rid of the bums, not the studs. 
There are all kinds of formulae that would work. For example, 12 athletes get two 
attempts; for rounds 3 and 4 you cut to 8, for round 5 its 6 and for the final 
roundone exciting-as-hell-go-for-all-the-marbles sequencejust 4. Wow!
The ugly rule is the proposal to restrict high jumpers and pole vaulters to only two 
misses at any height. Have the people who proposed this monstrosity ever actually sat 
in a stadium with the paying customers and given any attention to whats going on? 
With the do-or-die nature of each jump at a crossbarno matter what height its set 
atthe crowd as one goes OOO! or AHH! on each attempt, particularly in the vault. 
Even during running events.  I dont think there are any other disciplines in the 
sport which spark such a visceral reaction. And no event holds a crowd long after the 
running is over as does a vertical jump. Why the heck would anybody possibly want to 
tamper with one of the few things in the sport to which Joe Sixpack can relate? 
And lets consider the case of Stacy Dragila, famed for getting herself in trouble and 
needing three jumps at lower heights before she pulls it together and goes on to big 
things. OK, maybe if she only had two shed get tougher sooner at a height, but why 
run the risk of shutting off the flow of

Re: t-and-f: Another View on NCAA Regionals


In a message dated Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:41:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

 The situation for me is so bad that I may even lose UCLA and USC in my own 
backyard.  Reason?  
Pac 10 must back up at least a week, which puts pressure on the SC-UCLA dual meet, 
which is quite important to those two schools.  The dual will have to back up to 
perhaps the last weekend in April, so participation at SAC would be very limited.

Why would Pac-10 back up? The article in NCAA news seemed clear to me that Regionals 
are fourth weekend in May and they want to have the conferences the week before, which 
is exactly where the Pac-10 is now.

And even if it moved back to second week, you're saying that you couldn't have the big 
dual the week before? Or that the dual, if it went to the last week in April, would 
pull all the USC-UCLA athletes from SAC the third week? Have the programs truly grown 
that wimpy?

In the glory days of the Pac-8, starting the first week of April, each school had 5 
straight weeks of full-bore in-conference dual meets. Then there was a week where the 
conference split in a half for the Northern and Southern Division meets. Then the next 
week was the conference. Of course that was when competition meant something and 
spectators came to collegiate meets, but i forgot that we're trying to avoid that at 
any cost.

gh

Re: t-and-f: Another View on NCAA Regionals


In a message dated Thu, 12 Apr 2001 11:00:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Kebba Tolbert" 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I'm with you Scott!

I think regionals is a huge, huge mistake. I really feel like the best kids 
in the country are already getting to nationals.

I talked to one coach in the Big 12 who said they may have to miss Drake to 
schedule their conference meet. The whole thing is crazy to me. Even from a 
training standpoint having to go to the well a week to ten days before natls 
is ridiculous.

It's not a week to 10 days; it's 10 days to 2 weeks. And it's also, I would note, 
exactly the same time period that the Big 10, Big 12, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, 
IC4A/ECAC, MCAC, MoValley, Mountain West, Pac-10 and WAC did last year and most will 
do this year. So much for that tough trip to the well on the eve of the nationals.

gh

t-and-f: great NCAA team battles predicted


The first TFN formcharts of the year for the NCAA Championships are now on our 
website (www.trackandfieldnews.com).

Current projections are for both the men's and women's team battles to be real 
screamers in Eugene, TCU currently aheda of LSU by a pointon the men's side (with 
Arkansas just anohter 2 back, and Tennessessee just 2 back of that) and UCLA ahead of 
USC by a point onthe women's side (with nobodyelse close). Check it out!

gh

(thanks to John Auka and Jack Pfeifer for their work on the predictions)

Re: t-and-f: Another View on NCAA Regionals(longbabbling reply)

2001-04-12 Thread NPM2RUN


I would have to agree with Gary here that it seems to many people are worried 
about racing, why wouldnt college kids be racing in MAY. for 90% of college 
track athletes their seasons are over by May 12th. Why wouldnt they be racing 
from SAC/Penn/Drake on through their conference meets the first week or two 
of may. for 9 of the other 10% why wouldnt they be racing (and peaking in 
May), running "last chance meet" and regionals, with hopes of going to 
nationals. Only 1% of college athletes will be going to USATF or Europe, and 
if they are that good they should be able to make it through any regional 
system. The only kids who cant handle racing during May when they should be 
"peaking" are those who havent been coached right from the previous august. 
Gary's right, back in the day people raced, and ran hard head to head, not 
just time trials, under perfect conditions.
while SAC has alot of qualifiers there are alot of sections also run, where 
people just plain compete. Same with Penn, to me the greatest part of Penn is 
watching somebody get the stick and race people, whether from the front or 
behind. Kids actually race to win, no matter where they get the stick. If 
people choose not to go to SAC/Penn/Drake cause they need to rest for May?? 
what is Scott or Dave J. to do?? My guess is Penn wiill still have 40 
thousand in the stands, watching what ever colleges choose to come and run 
4x4.4x8 and 4x15 on Saturday afternoon. Penn is about competition, people 
want to see races.  Maybe SAC will become more of a pure relay meet (like the 
name implies).
after all this said I personally dont really think the new system will work, 
the old one needed to be changed but not like this.
It seems in are sport, many groups have ideas about what will make things 
better but none of these groups can all seem to get on the same page, (ie 2 
HS national Championship meets) 
College Schedule would look something like this:
April 20   SAC or Dogwood
April 27 PENN  and Drake
May 5 or 12 Conference Meets
May 20-22  Regionals
June 2-5 Nationals.

There are plenty of weekends for these meets, it seems like people dont 
actually talk about planning outside their own groups.

nick

t-and-f: MJ's farewell tour


there was no advance notice on it, so it wasn't until drive-time this morning that I 
discovered Michael Johnson on local sports-talk show, and I'd already missed much of 
it, but I gather he's planning a "farewell tour," in which, to paraphrase his words, 
the emphasis will be on interacting with the fans who have been so kind to him over 
the years, rather than the competition itself.

Did say that his season won't start until May, and that his final race won't be in the 
U.S. (obviously).

The hostanother moron who knows nothing about track, and admitted itscrewed up the 
whole interview by asking Michael if he wasn't sorry he didn't play football, and 
would he consdier it. MJ got rather testy, asked if when he interviewed Michael Jordan 
did he ask him questions liek that. At that point, a promoter who was also on-line 
with Michael changed the subject a bit. As they were signing off the interviewer (Gary 
Radnich) said, "next up, a chat with Tiger Woods," and MJ chimed in, "Why don't you 
ask him if he wants to play football." !!!

gh

RE: t-and-f: Why we question Chinese marks

2001-04-12 Thread Mcewen, Brian T


 .  Neither of these entities have come close to their tainted runs. 
 
Ahhh ... be careful now Darrell.  These WR holders passed the same drug
testing that all the other WR holders had to pass.  Right? (The IAAF demands
it!)
 
What makes these WR marks by the Chinese any "dirtier" or "cleaner" than any
of the other WR's out there?
 
Just because they were "really fast"?

Re: t-and-f: MJ's farewell tour

2001-04-12 Thread Kurt Bray


Garry writes:

The host?another moron who knows nothing about track, and admitted 
it?screwed up the whole interview by asking Michael if he wasn't sorry he 
didn't play football, and would he consdier it

Sounds like it was an entertaining interview.  Did this guy also ask MJ to 
explain and apologize for his behavior with the flag during the 4x100 
victory lap in Sydney?

Kurt Bray

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Re: t-and-f: Why we question Chinese marks

2001-04-12 Thread Dgs1170

In a message dated 04/12/2001 9:35:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


What makes these WR marks by the Chinese any "dirtier" or "cleaner" than any
of the other WR's out there?

This was not the topic of my post, nor the subject matter. 
The topic was the effect of drugs on performance, and whether or not the 
athletes had to possess some similar level of talent. I say the facts say 
drugs have a huge affect.

Faith is a road seldom traveled
Let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, 
the author and finisher of our faith" Hebrews 12: 1-2

Re: t-and-f: Misprint?

2001-04-12 Thread LTricard

In a message dated 4/12/2001 11:53:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


’74 NCAA Championships: 7 heats produced no fewer than 18 false 

that's 27 years agocan't you do any better

Purpose of NCAA track and field (was Re: t-and-f: Another View on NCAA Regionals

2001-04-12 Thread Conway Hill

GH wrote:
In the glory days of the Pac-8, starting the first week of April, each school had 5 straight weeks of full-bore in-conference dual meets. Then there was a week where the conference split in a half for the Northern and Southern Division meets. Then the next week was the conference. Of course that was when competition meant something and spectators came to collegiate meets, but i forgot that we're trying to avoid that at any cost.

As I have been watching this thread this question keeps popping into my head: What is the reason for NCAA track and field ??? Dual meets are almost a thing of the past ... Aside from conference championships there is little competition amongst squads within conferences ... The NCAA Championships are the one thing that everyone wants to participate in so everyone spends "the season" in search of a mark that will gain them entry into the big dance ... If you make it to the big meet then your season is a success and if you don't your season is over ... So aside from trying to get into the NCAA Championships, what is the purpose of NCAA track and field ???
Because as I see it at present, if this is the case then collegiate track is basically a sport for the collegiately elite with little opportunity for "development" of athletes ... Recruiting means finding those athletes that can come in and "score" NCAA points within a year of entering the program ... Which means little development going on in the sport outside of high school ... Or am I reading this wrong ???
ConwayGet your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon


Here's some background for those trying to understand the bio-cultural
reasons for Kenyan/Kalenjin dominance at Boston.

For the empiricist in you, the last 10 Boston Marathons (male) have been won
by a Kenyan. More specifically, all the winners have been Kalenjins, a
loosely-named group of approximately 1.5 million people. The chances of that
happening by chance, based on population statistics alone, is 1 in
1,048,576,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 . Or, as a decimal:
0.0001

For those who say it's because of social channeling, it's intriguing to note
that running is a poor third in sports popularity Kenya, well-behind the
national obsession of soccer (which they are not very competitive at
compared to athletes from West Africa -- they don't have the body type for
it) and cricket (at which they are decidedly mediocre as well).

On the flip side, the best Kenyan time (or time by any East African) in the
100 meters is 10.28 seconds, about 5,000 on the all time list while the best
time by a person of West African ancestry is 9.79 seconds.

Of course it's ALL because of social conditioning and population genetics
has nothing to do with it.

Perhaps the most persuasive prima facie case suggesting that sports success
is not a purely environmental phenomena may be found in the real-life
laboratory of the Nandi Hills, Kenya and more specifically the Kalenjin,
represents a mind-boggling concentration of athletic talent. The Kalenjin
represent roughly three-quarters of Kenyas world-class runners (half of
whom are from one tribe, the Nandi). Hundreds of years ago, what African
historians refer to as a proto-Kalenjin population migrated from the Nilotic
core area northwest of Lake Turkana to the Mt. Elgon area, where the group
fragmented and moved to its present locations in the highlands. This is the
home of the Nandi, part of the Kalenjins.

The historical concentration of top runners among the Nandi, and the more
recent emergence of top runners in the more northerly groups such as the
Keiyo, Marakwet, and Tugen, could understandably be linked to the influence
of the internationally renowned running program at St. Patricks in Iten,
which is close to those three groups. However, these trends only reconfirm
overall Kalenjin dominance. There certainly appears to be a common genetic
thread that runs through the amorphous Kalenjin population. According to
John Manners, who has written two books on Kenyan running, there feedback
loop of the regions evolutionary history and East African culture is well
established.

Intriguingly, one of the few non-Kalenjin tribes to make a mark on the
in-ternational running scene is the Kisii, with whom the Kalenjin have had
especially intense interaction over the past several centuries. The Da-tooga
(also called the Dadog) in Tanzania, who speak Southern Nilotic, a language
very close to that of the Kalenjin, are one of two small tribes in that
country to turn out world-class distance runners in any numbers. The Sabei
in Uganda, who are Kalenjin (they live adjacent to their Kalen-jin cousins
on the other side of the border), dominate Ugandas increas-ingly successful
international cross-country teams, even though they constitute a tiny
proportion of the countrys population. And on a much broader, less
meaningful scale, the Eastern Cushitic speakers who domi-nate the formidable
distance running corps of Ethiopia have some distant connection to the
Kalenjin, according to anthropologists.

There is little doubt that for many centuries the Kalenjin have been a
substantially stable population group, however mixed in origin, not just
unrelated peoples who have come to speak the same language. The fact that
this tribe of about three million is able to dominate world distance running
is so astonishing as to beggar purely cultural or environ-mental
explanations, writers Manners. That the various Kalenjin groups originated
inde-pendently and somehow adopted the same language and customs is both
counterintuitive and contrary to the evidence. The only reason I can think
for propounding such a theory is essentially a political oneto try to
undercut potentially divisive notions of ancient ethnic or blood tiesan
admirable sentiment, maybe, but bad history.

Kenya is a melting pot. All evidencelinguistic, archaeological, and
folkloricsuggests that the three million people who today call themselves
Kalenjin originated as a small group of pastoral nomads and sheepherders in
the Nilotic core area of what is now southern Sudan, eventually migrating
south to the Mount Elgon region. It is almost universally acknowledged that
the current population arrived within the past 2,000 years or so.

 Pastoralist Cushites arrived from southern Ethiopia, displacing and
absorbing a very sparse population presumed to have been Khoisan.
Along the way, small populations of perhaps hundreds of people who appear to
have been indigenous forest dwellers, commonly known as Okiek or

t-and-f: Clarifying the post on Boston Marathon


Just to be clear, I use the word "Kalenjin" in the broad sense, used by John
Manners and others. Kalenjins are spread out along the western rim of the
Rift Valley and constitute about half of the province's population. The Rift
Valley area is also homeland to the Kissi and the Kikuyu, which includes the
Kamba, I believe. Cosmas Ndeti is a Kamba tribesman.  Lameck Aguta belongs
to the Kisii tribe. The stats I posted on probabilities extend to these
tribes as well.
-- 
Jon Entine
RuffRun
6178 Grey Rock Rd.
Agoura Hills, CA 91301
(818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804
http://www.jonentine.com

Re: t-and-f: Misprint?


TFN wrote:
 And no event holds a crowd long after the running is over as does a
vertical jump.

I agree, although it seems to me that the vertical jumps are often the ONLY
event still going on long after the running is over!(which as a big pole
vault fan is fine with me)

- Ed Parrot

Re: t-and-f: Why we question Chinese marks




In a message dated 04/11/2001 8:03:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
Even with drugs, these marks are astonishing. If these women 
  (if they really were women) were on drugs, I just wonder how fast they 
  could have run clean because no matter how effective the 
  drugs/doping/supplements are, you can't run like this without 
  tremendous ability and training.
and DGS writes:Classic line of logic, that I find factually flawed. 
It is the same argument many Ben supporters have, although, he was 
a 10.1 sprinter before, and a 10.1 runner after. From what I have 
seen, drugs have a huge effect on performance. Thus illustrated by 
Ben, and recently by the Chinese. Neither of these entities have 
come close to their tainted runs 


I think you're both right. Ben essentially knocked .3 off his 
time. That is approximately a 3 percent improvement, which is huge at the 
elite level.This was the difference between being the world 
record-holder and beingan Olympicsemi-finalist if he had a good day. 
 But if you take the Chinese 10K world record and subtract 3 percent, you 
get a 10K time that would have medalled at every olympics and would have been 
fairly close to the old world record.

We;ll never really know, becauseas opposed to Ben, who made several 
well-publicized comeback attempts, we never heard from most of the Chinese 
again. One or two of them left China and had some subsequent world-class 
perofrmances, and a few of them popped up briefly, but for the most part they 
disappeared. And we also have no real idea how good they were before the 
breakthrough.


- Ed Parrot

Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon

2001-04-12 Thread alan tobin


Well, it's old news that Kenyans, mainly Kalenjin's, dominate distance 
running today. Their evolution has made them superb distance runners. They 
have lived at altitude for millions of years. They have lived a harder 
existance than say the American silver platter life. I would like to make 
one point though about Boston: 2000 winner Elija Lagat, 2:09:471979 
winner Bill Rodgers, 2:09:271981 winner Toshihiko Seko, 2:09:261986 
winner Robert de Castella, 2:07:511990 winner Gerlindo Bordin, 2:08:19. 
Kenyans win this race, but so do Americans, Japanese, Australians, and 
Italians. They also win it in about the same time. Kenyans have seemed to 
dominate this race as of late, but not to the point where non-Kenyans can no 
longer win. They aren't winning this race any faster than it was won 20 
years ago. Genetics and their way of life give the Kalenjin's a better 
starting point, but the finish line is the same for every runner. If the 
Japanese marathoners ran Boston then I'd think they would give the 
Kalenjin's a run for their money. In a few years I can see a handful of US 
runners under 2:10, maybe even under 2:08:00. Of course the US's best 
marathoners are running 10ks right now. Tick, tock, tick, tock

Alan



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Re: Purpose of NCAA track and field (was Re: t-and-f: Another Viewon NCAA Regionals

2001-04-12 Thread P.F.Talbot


On Thu, 12 Apr 2001, Conway Hill wrote:
 Because as I see it at present, if this is the case then collegiate track
 is basically a sport for the collegiately elite with little opportunity
 for "development" of athletes ... Recruiting means finding those athletes
 that can come in and "score" NCAA points within a year of entering the
 program ... Which means little development going on in the sport outside
 of high school ... Or am I reading this wrong ???

Well, the vast majority of NCAA track and field athletes never make it to
the NCAA meet.  What do you think all those athletes are doing?

BTW, when I was at Illinois, the Illinois-Indiana dual (sometimes a tri
with Purdue) and the Illinois-Southern Illinois dual meets were both very
important to the coaching staff.

Paul

Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon


Oleg:

Actually, there is every reason to elieve there is a genetic component to
that as well, but it's too long to get into here. The difference, however,
is that the Kenyan example provides statistical evidence, but that is only a
small fraction of the evidencethe rest is based on documented anatomical
and physiological differences between populations, which also points to the
same conclusion that bio-genetics are critical factors in understanding
what's going on.

On 4/12/01 12:12 PM, "Oleg Shpyrko" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Statistics is a pretty interesting tool for making this type of arguments.
 
 Example:
 
 Over the past 75 years the world chess crown belonged to a russian (and by
 "russian" I mean the broad definition of the term) 70 times out of 75.
 The chance of this happening by "accident" is even lower than
 the chances of a kenyan winning Boston 10 years in a row.
 To put some numbers together, it's about (.03)^70, or roughly
 10^(-105) or 1 in
 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00,000,000,000,000,000,000
 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.
 
 Give or take a few orders of magnitude :)
 Someone please double check the number of zeros.
 
 For comparison, your number is "only" 10^(-36). My scenario is 10^(-69)
 times less likely to happen by "accident"!
 
 According to your logic, this should suggest that russian people have
 specific "chess" gene. I should also add that chess is not even considered
 to be among top 20 most popular sports among russians. Hockey, soccer,
 basketball, athletics, swimming, gymnastics, volleyball, etc. are much more
 popular.
 
 Why are we "afraid to talk" about THAT? Just an idea for your next book.
 
 Oleg.
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine
 Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:15 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
 
 
 Here's some background for those trying to understand the bio-cultural
 reasons for Kenyan/Kalenjin dominance at Boston.
 
 For the empiricist in you, the last 10 Boston Marathons (male) have been won
 by a Kenyan. More specifically, all the winners have been Kalenjins, a
 loosely-named group of approximately 1.5 million people. The chances of that
 happening by chance, based on population statistics alone, is 1 in
 1,048,576,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 . Or, as a decimal:
 0.0001
 
 For those who say it's because of social channeling, it's intriguing to note
 that running is a poor third in sports popularity Kenya, well-behind the
 national obsession of soccer (which they are not very competitive at
 compared to athletes from West Africa -- they don't have the body type for
 it) and cricket (at which they are decidedly mediocre as well).
 
 On the flip side, the best Kenyan time (or time by any East African) in the
 100 meters is 10.28 seconds, about 5,000 on the all time list while the best
 time by a person of West African ancestry is 9.79 seconds.
 
 Of course it's ALL because of social conditioning and population genetics
 has nothing to do with it.
 
 Perhaps the most persuasive prima facie case suggesting that sports success
 is not a purely environmental phenomena may be found in the real-life
 laboratory of the Nandi Hills, Kenya and more specifically the Kalenjin,
 represents a mind-boggling concentration of athletic talent. The Kalenjin
 represent roughly three-quarters of Kenyas world-class runners (half of
 whom are from one tribe, the Nandi). Hundreds of years ago, what African
 historians refer to as a proto-Kalenjin population migrated from the Nilotic
 core area northwest of Lake Turkana to the Mt. Elgon area, where the group
 fragmented and moved to its present locations in the highlands. This is the
 home of the Nandi, part of the Kalenjins.
 
 The historical concentration of top runners among the Nandi, and the more
 recent emergence of top runners in the more northerly groups such as the
 Keiyo, Marakwet, and Tugen, could understandably be linked to the influence
 of the internationally renowned running program at St. Patricks in Iten,
 which is close to those three groups. However, these trends only reconfirm
 overall Kalenjin dominance. There certainly appears to be a common genetic
 thread that runs through the amorphous Kalenjin population. According to
 John Manners, who has written two books on Kenyan running, there feedback
 loop of the regions evolutionary history and East African culture is well
 established.
 
 Intriguingly, one of the few non-Kalenjin tribes to make a mark on the
 in-ternational running scene is the Kisii, with whom the Kalenjin have had
 especially intense interaction over the past several centuries. The Da-tooga
 (also called the Dadog) in Tanzania, who speak Southern Nilotic, a language
 very close to that of the Kalenjin, are one of two small tribes in that
 country to turn out

t-and-f: Ed Mendoza

2001-04-12 Thread Eckmann, Drew


in the top 8 in at least two of the races or likely had Q marks in 
both and/or marathon:

1976:   Shorter; Craig Virgin, Gary Bjorklund, Bill Rodgers,
Ed Mendoza (5th 10k/definitely had Q marks in Mar  5k), 
Kardong, et. al

I remember Ed Mendoza telling me that after his 5th place finish he went
back to Flagstaff and drank beer for a couple of weeks. Then he got a call
that Shorter and Rodgers were only going to run the marathon. "Hey Ed, would
you like to run at the Olympics? You are still in shape right?" Well
needless to say, Ed told them that he was and went on to Run at Montreal. He
didn't get out of the first round though. 
After Boston '82 (I think), he said "Man, I was on Salazar's shoulder for 20
miles. Then I turned into a ball of shit."

Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon


Alan. Of course, you make great points. But don't expect a person of West
African ancestry to ever win a marathon -- they have such small, genetically
determined lung capacity and huge percentage of fast twitch muscles and
other anatomical and physiological characteristics that it would be a long
shot at best. On the other hand, East Asians have a great phenotype for the
marathon and particularly the ultra-marathon, as I explain in Taboo. It is
not just happenstance or culture that East Asians and their descendants such
as the Tarahumara Indians are among the world's dominant ultra-endurance
runners.


On 4/12/01 11:42 AM, "alan tobin" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Well, it's old news that Kenyans, mainly Kalenjin's, dominate distance
 running today. Their evolution has made them superb distance runners. They
 have lived at altitude for millions of years. They have lived a harder
 existance than say the American silver platter life. I would like to make
 one point though about Boston: 2000 winner Elija Lagat, 2:09:471979
 winner Bill Rodgers, 2:09:271981 winner Toshihiko Seko, 2:09:261986
 winner Robert de Castella, 2:07:511990 winner Gerlindo Bordin, 2:08:19.
 Kenyans win this race, but so do Americans, Japanese, Australians, and
 Italians. They also win it in about the same time. Kenyans have seemed to
 dominate this race as of late, but not to the point where non-Kenyans can no
 longer win. They aren't winning this race any faster than it was won 20
 years ago. Genetics and their way of life give the Kalenjin's a better
 starting point, but the finish line is the same for every runner. If the
 Japanese marathoners ran Boston then I'd think they would give the
 Kalenjin's a run for their money. In a few years I can see a handful of US
 runners under 2:10, maybe even under 2:08:00. Of course the US's best
 marathoners are running 10ks right now. Tick, tock, tick, tock
 
 Alan
 
 
 
 _
 Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
 

-- 
Jon Entine
RuffRun
6178 Grey Rock Rd.
Agoura Hills, CA 91301
(818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804
http://www.jonentine.com

t-and-f: RE: 5k/10k/marathon USOT qualifiers

2001-04-12 Thread Mcewen, Brian T


Excellent work, and very entertaining.

However, this arcane achievement is probably not achieved as often as we
think.  Mostly because when you train for a Spring marathon, you don't
usually run many track races leading up to it.  Additionally, many would
find it hard to hit a sub-13:40 5k in March or April and then run an April
or May Marathon.  

The biggest limiter is that some of these guys NEVER ran a marathon, or they
ran them outside of the qualifier window.

Certainly, there have been dozens of Americans who ran 13:40/28:40/2:15 over
their entire career ... or over a couple years.

But axe these guys from the list:

Young   (no Q. time required in 1968)
Bachelor(no Q. time required in 1968)
Lindgren(no elite marathon ever finished - AFAIK)
Rodgers (Did he run a 5k?  In 1976?  prob. not)
Virgin  (1976- no mar.)
padilla (no 10k/no marathon)
Al salazar  ('80- no Mar. until after the Trials (2:09 - 10/80), '84 - no 5k
unless '83 marks counted)
Dick Buerkle (no marathon)
Jeff Wells  (no 5k)
Sandoval(no 5k)



Confirm these to the list:

Shorter  (1972 for sure - Bakersfield 13:40's 5k, Qualifier in the
10k/Mar. for sure )
Don Kardong  (prob. '72 and '76)
Jeff Galloway ('72 - probably)
Meyer(had 13:35i/27:53/2:09 ... but in '83 ... 16 months before
the Trials)
Ed Mendoza   (5th 10k/definitely had Q marks in Mar  5k)

How long is the qualifying window BEFORE the track trials?  And how long was
it, back in the day, for the marathon trials?

If it has been MORE than 12 months before the each Trials race,
respectively, then many guys probably were a three-race-qualifier.

-BTMcEwen

-Original Message-
From: Jon Alquist [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 4:00 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: 5k/10k/marathon USOT qualifiers


Brian McEwen queried on 4/11 if anyone knew of any US males 
who qualified for a US Olympic Trails in the 5k, 10k and marathon. 

In 1968 George Young MADE the U.S. Olympic team in the steeplechase 
and marathon (winning the marathon trials in 2:30+ at 
altitude/Alamosa, CO), so I wouldn't be surprised if he also had 
Trials qualifing marks in the 5k and 10k. In 1972 He also made the US 
team in the 5k, so I wouldn't be surprised if he had a a 10k Q mark 
that year, but don't know if he ran any marathons (or if there even 
was a qualifying standard at that time). 1968 was the first year that 
one final race was used to determine the Olympic marathon team. 
Before that it was based on several designated marathons, so there 
was probably no qualifying standard to enter the trails.

A quick review of 5k/10k/Mar results in my copy of Scott Davis's 1984 
"Media Guide to the 1984 US FOT," indicates a plethora of runners who 
likely would meet Brian's criterion. The following individuals placed 
in the top 8 in at least two of the races or likely had Q marks in 
both and/or marathon:

1964:   Gerry Lindgren (1st10k); Billy Mills (2nd 10k); Doug Brown (3rd 10k)
1968:   Lindgren (4th 5k/5th 10k); Mills (4th 10k); Kenny Moore (7th 
10k/2nd Mar)
1972:   Frank Shorter (1st 10k/1st Mar); Jack Bacheler (2nd Mar/2nd 5k in
'68);
Don Kardong (6th 10k/6th Mar); Jeff Galloway (2nd 10k/4th Mar)
1976:   Shorter; Craig Virgin, Gary Bjorklund, Bill Rodgers,
Ed Mendoza (5th 10k/definitely had Q marks in Mar  5k), 
Kardong, et. al
1980:   Virgin, Alberto Slazar, Jeff Wells, Tony Sandoval, Dick 
Buerkle, Steve Ortiz, Doug Padilla

I get the impression that a whole lot of athletes from the "Golden 
Age of U.S. Distance Running" (mid '60s to mid '80s) easily qualified 
for the USOT in all three events.

BTW, does anyone out there have a listing of Olympic Trials 
qualifying standards for each year? Also, what was the first year 
that standards were established for entry into the USOTs? I don't 
seem to remember much mention of them back in the '50s, as everybody 
paid their own way.

JON ALQUIST

Original Message -

Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:26:07 -0400
From: "Mcewen, Brian T" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: t-and-f: Olympic Trials distance question

Does anyone know of any males in the US who qualified for the 5k/10k/and
Mar. for one Olympic Trials?

I had a friend who did so in 1984.  We all thought it was good, but not
earth-shaking, because he went about 13:40/28:40/2:17:16 that year, and
there were plenty of sub-28:00/sub-2:10 guys at the time.

The qualifying standards in 1984 were about 13:42/28:46/2:19:50 ... they
have relaxed somewhat since then.

Clearly many guys had the ability to score this "hat-trick" (Shorter,
Bjorklund, Virgin, Salazar, Meyer, Eyestone, on and on) ...

But do you know any who have actually qualified for these three races within
the qualifying window allowed for a single Olympic Trials?

- -Brian McEwen

P.S.  What is the time window allowed for qualifying for these races at the
Trials?

RE: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon

2001-04-12 Thread Oleg Shpyrko


Statistics is a pretty interesting tool for making this type of arguments.

Example:

Over the past 75 years the world chess crown belonged to a russian (and by
"russian" I mean the broad definition of the term) 70 times out of 75.
The chance of this happening by "accident" is even lower than
the chances of a kenyan winning Boston 10 years in a row.
To put some numbers together, it's about (.03)^70, or roughly
10^(-105) or 1 in
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00,000,000,000,000,000,000
,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

Give or take a few orders of magnitude :)
Someone please double check the number of zeros.

For comparison, your number is "only" 10^(-36). My scenario is 10^(-69)
times less likely to happen by "accident"!

According to your logic, this should suggest that russian people have
specific "chess" gene. I should also add that chess is not even considered
to be among top 20 most popular sports among russians. Hockey, soccer,
basketball, athletics, swimming, gymnastics, volleyball, etc. are much more
popular.

Why are we "afraid to talk" about THAT? Just an idea for your next book.

Oleg.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:15 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon


Here's some background for those trying to understand the bio-cultural
reasons for Kenyan/Kalenjin dominance at Boston.

For the empiricist in you, the last 10 Boston Marathons (male) have been won
by a Kenyan. More specifically, all the winners have been Kalenjins, a
loosely-named group of approximately 1.5 million people. The chances of that
happening by chance, based on population statistics alone, is 1 in
1,048,576,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 . Or, as a decimal:
0.0001

For those who say it's because of social channeling, it's intriguing to note
that running is a poor third in sports popularity Kenya, well-behind the
national obsession of soccer (which they are not very competitive at
compared to athletes from West Africa -- they don't have the body type for
it) and cricket (at which they are decidedly mediocre as well).

On the flip side, the best Kenyan time (or time by any East African) in the
100 meters is 10.28 seconds, about 5,000 on the all time list while the best
time by a person of West African ancestry is 9.79 seconds.

Of course it's ALL because of social conditioning and population genetics
has nothing to do with it.

Perhaps the most persuasive prima facie case suggesting that sports success
is not a purely environmental phenomena may be found in the real-life
laboratory of the Nandi Hills, Kenya and more specifically the Kalenjin,
represents a mind-boggling concentration of athletic talent. The Kalenjin
represent roughly three-quarters of Kenyas world-class runners (half of
whom are from one tribe, the Nandi). Hundreds of years ago, what African
historians refer to as a proto-Kalenjin population migrated from the Nilotic
core area northwest of Lake Turkana to the Mt. Elgon area, where the group
fragmented and moved to its present locations in the highlands. This is the
home of the Nandi, part of the Kalenjins.

The historical concentration of top runners among the Nandi, and the more
recent emergence of top runners in the more northerly groups such as the
Keiyo, Marakwet, and Tugen, could understandably be linked to the influence
of the internationally renowned running program at St. Patricks in Iten,
which is close to those three groups. However, these trends only reconfirm
overall Kalenjin dominance. There certainly appears to be a common genetic
thread that runs through the amorphous Kalenjin population. According to
John Manners, who has written two books on Kenyan running, there feedback
loop of the regions evolutionary history and East African culture is well
established.

Intriguingly, one of the few non-Kalenjin tribes to make a mark on the
in-ternational running scene is the Kisii, with whom the Kalenjin have had
especially intense interaction over the past several centuries. The Da-tooga
(also called the Dadog) in Tanzania, who speak Southern Nilotic, a language
very close to that of the Kalenjin, are one of two small tribes in that
country to turn out world-class distance runners in any numbers. The Sabei
in Uganda, who are Kalenjin (they live adjacent to their Kalen-jin cousins
on the other side of the border), dominate Ugandas increas-ingly successful
international cross-country teams, even though they constitute a tiny
proportion of the countrys population. And on a much broader, less
meaningful scale, the Eastern Cushitic speakers who domi-nate the formidable
distance running corps of Ethiopia have some distant connection to the
Kalenjin, according to anthropologists.

There is little doubt that for many centuries the Kalenjin have been a
substantially stable

Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon

2001-04-12 Thread Dan Kaplan


--- alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Of course the US's best marathoners are running
 10ks right now. Tick, tock, tick, tock

Of course, the same could also be said for the Kenyans and Ethiopians.  My
guess is, if the top Americans moved up, and so did the top east Africans,
the Americans would slip lower in the world rankings, rather than climb.

Dan

=
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  @o   Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 |\/ ^-  ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
_/ \ \/\   [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address)
   /   /   (503)370-9969 phone/fax

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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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t-and-f: New Zealand List Member Please Reply

2001-04-12 Thread Scott Fickerson





Hello - could a New Zealand Resident list member 
please contact me privately, thank you

Scott FickersonHeidelberg College Track 
 Field(419) 448 - 2179[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: t-and-f: Misprint?

2001-04-12 Thread CHRIS KUYKENDALL


Meanwhile, returning to the issue of standing up or sitting down at 
track meets:  This is an issue on which I agree with Garry Hill.

At the Texas Relays last Saturday afternoon, I was sitting above 
and slightly in front of the finish line, among an enthusiastic crowd, 
probably--on average--more into the sprints than the people on the 
opposite side.  If a runner started down the homestretch 
straightaway in a race or on a leg of 400 meters or less, everybody 
would rise for the remainder of the race.  Even if it was just the 
leadoff runner on a 4x400.

It's nice for everybody to be so excited.  But...

The couple to the left had a young daughter, accompanied by 
another female about the same age who apparently was a family 
friend.  A separate family in the immediate vicinity had a daughter 
who seemed to be very keen on the competition, not to mention 
unusually knowledgeable.  None of the three girls were probably 
any older than 10.  So they were short, compared to the many 
surrounding adults.

I think the race view for short youngsters is less impeded by 
everyone sitting down than by everyone standing.  So my opinion 
is that sitting down helps grow the sport from the bottom up.


Chris Kuykendall
Austin, Texas
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

t-and-f: Chess and Kalenjins?

2001-04-12 Thread Jon Alquist


Oleg:

When did chess become a sport? I'm sure if Steven Hawking (a 
paraplegic) or Bill Gates (who doesn't strike me as being very 
athletic) devoted their considerable intellectual powers to chess 
they might also become world champions. Sorry, don't see the analogy 
to distance running abilities.

Also "Russians," particularly during most of the last 70+year period 
you cite, could hardly be considered a distinctive ethnic/genetic 
group, considering the melange of nationalities incorporated into the 
former Soviet Union. In fact, I believe a number of the so-called 
"Russian" world chess champs were indeed not ethnic Russians, a 
number of them being Jews (a fact that the old Soviet regime was not 
to anxious publicize).

JON ALQUIST

t-and-f: MJs farewell tour

2001-04-12 Thread Brian McGuire


The host-another moron who knows nothing about track, and admitted
it-screwed up the whole interview by asking Michael if he wasn't sorry he
didn't play football, and would he consdier it. MJ got rather testy, asked
if when he interviewed Michael Jordan did he ask him questions liek that. At
that point, a promoter who was also on-line with Michael changed the subject
a bit. As they were signing off the interviewer (Gary Radnich) said, "next
up, a chat with Tiger Woods," and MJ chimed in, "Why don't you ask him if he
wants to play football." !!!

Gary Radnich is usually a great interviewer with a good rapport with his
subjects. It sounds like he met his match in MJ, who it sounds like gave
Radnich all the S**T he deserved.

-Brian McGuire


Brian McGuire

Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon

2001-04-12 Thread Randall Northam


on 12/4/01 6:15 PM, Jon Entine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 (which they are not very competitive at
 compared to athletes from West Africa -- they don't have the body type for
 it)
I know I shouldn't step into this minefield, but I do find some of this,
just as I found some of John Entine's other posts, breathtakingly sweeping.
Kenyans don't have the body type for football (association football that
is)! I don't know much about genetics but I do know my football, been
obsessed with it for nearly 50 years and it seems to me Kenyans (runners
that is) are skinny with a great power/weight ratio which is exactly what is
needed for soccer. Speed is necessary but power is just as important as is
stamina.
Look at Thierry Henry of Arsenal. Looks like a middle distance runner, look
at most soccer players, they look like middle distance runners. Very few are
the bulky typical Nigerian sprinter types. If you were picking a football
shape among sprinters it would be Don Quarrie, not Maurice Greene.
Nigeria and Cameroon have risen to the top of the African football ladder
recently but they still haven't truly overtaken Tunisia and Egypt. And the
players in those countries look like middle distance runners too. Stick to
what you know about John, you clearly know nothing about football.
Randall Northam
"When they said sit down, I stood up"
my own little religious slogan.

t-and-f: Sticking to what I know


Randall:

I am sticking to what I know Randall. I've actually read the genetic and
scientific research on this. Your eye balls are not empirical research. Nor
do they reflect physiological differences.

A certain degree of upper body strength is very critical to do well. When
one talks about body type, it is within a range, like a Bell Curve
distribution. You are not likely to find a high concentration within that
range of great soccer body types in Kenya -- or from athletes who trace
their ancestry to the mountainous regions of North Africa, where the people
share a common ancestry with East Africans.

East Africans also have huge natural lung capacity, which tends to be
somewhat inefficient for the explosive speeds you need in many positions in
soccer. Plus, they have a preponderance of slow twitch muscle fibers, which
is not the best for attackers. That's just anatomical/physiological facts.

These facts are MOST CLEAR in sprinting, in which Kenyans are just not that
fast at 100 meters (10,28 best, pretty pathetic) although they get
progressively better as the distance increases, as more aerobic skills come
into play. Again, that's just fact based.

North African "flat landers," those who live and trace their ancestry to the
coast, are a much different genetic population than those from the
mountains. There is some interesting data on this, for instance, in
Cavalli-Sforza's "The History and Geography of Genes."

As for these being generalizations, OF COURSE, THAT'S WHAT POPULATION
GENETICS IS. Are men taller than women? Of course. Is every man taller than
every woman? Of course not. Does finding a tall woman "prove" that men are
not, as a generalization, taller than most women? Of course not.

Do Kenyans have the body type and physiology to be great soccer players? No.
Is it possible that individual Kenyans may emerge who become great soccer
players? Of course. Would that mean that therefore Kenyan body type as a
generalization is ill-suited to elite success in that sport? Of course note.

The proof is in the science of body types and physiology which concurs with
the vast empirical data -- in this case, Kenyans are mediocre soocer players
and not very fast 100 meter runners.

On the other hand, we have carping and purely speculate "environmental"
theories that are laughed at by scientists and without much support from the
empirical evidence.

Sorry Randall..




On 4/12/01 4:10 PM, "Randall Northam" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 on 12/4/01 6:15 PM, Jon Entine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 (which they are not very competitive at
 compared to athletes from West Africa -- they don't have the body type for
 it)
 I know I shouldn't step into this minefield, but I do find some of this,
 just as I found some of John Entine's other posts, breathtakingly sweeping.
 Kenyans don't have the body type for football (association football that
 is)! I don't know much about genetics but I do know my football, been
 obsessed with it for nearly 50 years and it seems to me Kenyans (runners
 that is) are skinny with a great power/weight ratio which is exactly what is
 needed for soccer. Speed is necessary but power is just as important as is
 stamina.
 Look at Thierry Henry of Arsenal. Looks like a middle distance runner, look
 at most soccer players, they look like middle distance runners. Very few are
 the bulky typical Nigerian sprinter types. If you were picking a football
 shape among sprinters it would be Don Quarrie, not Maurice Greene.
 Nigeria and Cameroon have risen to the top of the African football ladder
 recently but they still haven't truly overtaken Tunisia and Egypt. And the
 players in those countries look like middle distance runners too. Stick to
 what you know about John, you clearly know nothing about football.
 Randall Northam
 "When they said sit down, I stood up"
 my own little religious slogan.
 

-- 
Jon Entine
RuffRun
6178 Grey Rock Rd.
Agoura Hills, CA 91301
(818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804
http://www.jonentine.com

t-and-f: Marathon battle in store for blood test campaigners

2001-04-12 Thread phalford


Marathon battle in store for blood test campaigners
From http://www.athletics-online.co.uk/110412epo.htm

12th April, 2001

The campaign of many of the world's leading marathon organisers to persuade
the authorities to implement widespread and standardised blood-testing is
yet to yield positive action and could prove lengthy.

This is despite representatives from the IAAF and four other Olympic sports
meeting with the World Anti-Doping Association (WADA) yesterday and
expressing commitment to the furthering of blood-testing.

Twenty-five major marathons and half-marathons have so far signed an
agreement calling for changes in the IAAF's rules to make it an offence to
refuse to take a blood test - inside or outside of competition.

The IAAF has responded that the organisers can already use the test for the
banned substance EPO that was introduced at last year's Olympic Games.

However, without athletes being forced to comply, any cheats could simply
compete elsewhere or stop using the drug a sufficient time before racing
while still benefitting.

Following yesterday's meeting, WADA announced in a statement: "The need to
extend the use of these tests for in and out-of-competition testing to have
the maximum impact was . . . recognized."

WADA spokesman Casey Wade said the agency would support the IAAF in any
out-of-competition testing programme.

"If it makes sense and the IAAF wants to do it, we'll be there," he said.
"We'll be supportive and we'll help collect the samples. There's no question
about that because that's where it really is the most efficient."

However, the IAAF need to make the first move, whereas it is up to now
expecting road races like the Flora London Marathon and New York City
Marathon to take the initiative.

Dr Arne Ljungqvist, the IAAF's Anti-Doping Chief, is in discussion with the
Flora London Marathon on the issue. He said this week: "The organisers are
free to go ahead and collect blood samples at their competitions and have
them analysed in accordance with the Sydney protocol."

But Nick Bitel, the Chief Executive of the world's largest marathon,
believes it is up to the the IAAF to take the lead to remove the suspicion
that often surrounds distance runners.

"We know that blood testing is in its infant stage and we're not saying that
blood testing is the panacea," he admitted. "We're saying that it's an
extremely useful tool and, at the moment, we cannot force athletes to
partake in blood testing."

"If we introduce blood testing and an athlete says 'no', then there's no
comeback on the athlete," he added. "We need the rules to be changed to
enforce blood testing and that's the problem at the moment."

Bitel expanded upon the changes to the rules and protocols that the marathon
organisers are requesting be made before 31st August.

"There's a couple of things needed," he said. "One is a rule change to make
it a doping offence to refuse to take a blood test."

Outlining the second requirement, he said: "What we're interested in is the
protocols, for EPO specifically at this stage, that were introduced in
Sydney. There is no absolutely widely agreed protocol for precisely what the
test is and whether something's a failure or not a failure."

Out-of-competition testing is of perhaps greater importance as the window of
detection for EPO by means of the method used in Sydney is only a matter of
days.

"The distance runners aren't competing that often so out-of-competition
testing is an absolute necessity," Bitel declared.

However, this presents even greater difficulty as far as the IAAF is
concerned.

"The main problem is logistic and, probably, juridical," said DR Ljungqvist.
"To go to a home of an athlete, knock on his or her door and ask for a urine
sample is already a difficult matter which includes many logistic problems.

"But to knock on the door and ask the athlete to lay down for a venipuncture
with the withdrawal of a certain amount of blood is something else.
Venipuncture requires medical personnel and sterile conditions.

"Also the legal aspects of this type of approach need to be evaluated."

A more positive Wade said: "The way it is right now, it's quite effective
but to be the most effective you have to have some out-of-competition
testing as well and that's something we're supportive of and we're looking
at developing with these federations. So we'll be doing it, it's just a case
of developing some protocols."

In the meantime, testing for EPO looks set to be confined to the major
championships. The combination of both a blood and urine test that was used
in Sydney is due to be employed at August's World Championships in Edmonton.

Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon

2001-04-12 Thread Susan Erikson


Book sales must be flagging.  Time to drum up a little more cheap publicity 
by making sweeping statements that someone is sure to take issue with.


_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

t-and-f: rivals

2001-04-12 Thread Doug Lynch


so the rivals websites are totally going belly up?

Doug Lynch
www.Lynxphotos.com

Re: t-and-f: Why we question Chinese marks

2001-04-12 Thread Ed Prytherch




Ed:
Wang certainly was not a one year wonder. Before 
1993, she was runner up to Paula Radcliffe in the world junior cross country. 
Later, she was the World champion in Stuttgart, the Asian champion in Hiroshima 
and the Olympic champion in Atlanta. I don't have the stats, but I think that 
she had the fastest time in the world for 10,000 for 3 years. in 1996, Paula 
Radcliffe was quoted in the Atlanta Constitution as saying that Wang was the 
greatest ever female runner. Her gold at 5,000 and silver at 10,000 was a great 
accomplishment. Only one other athlete made the finals at both distances and he 
didn't medal.

Ed Prytherch

  We;ll never really know, becauseas opposed to Ben, who made several 
  well-publicized comeback attempts, we never heard from most of the Chinese 
  again. One or two of them left China and had some subsequent world-class 
  perofrmances, and a few of them popped up briefly, but for the most part they 
  disappeared. And we also have no real idea how good they were before the 
  breakthrough.
  
  
  - Ed Parrot

t-and-f: lung capacity


Jon Entine wrote:

 East Africans also have huge natural lung capacity

Do you mean untrained lung capacity?  The only way I can imagine you could
test for "natural" lung capacity would be at birth.

- Ed Parrot

t-and-f: NCAA regionals, etc

2001-04-12 Thread Michael J. Roth


The Regionals system is not going to increase the performances of
athletes whatsoever.  Return the scholarship numbers to what they were
in the early 80's and that will make the difference.  If you look at
collegiate perfomances, esp. the disatances, the level of excellence
drops off as the scholarship allotment was withered away in favor of the
"money" sports.  The more athletes that don't have to work at McD's to
make ends meet in college, the better the performances will be.  It is
the same w/ the open elites as well.

MJR

t-and-f: Scholarships

2001-04-12 Thread Dgs1170

In a message dated 04/12/2001 5:53:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Return the scholarship numbers to what they were
in the early 80's and that will make the difference. 

Uh oh! Shh! You will have the Title IX supporters in here raising a 
ruckus.
But no truer words were spoken on this subject.

Faith is a road seldom traveled
Let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, 
the author and finisher of our faith" Hebrews 12: 1-2

t-and-f: Re: Scholarships

2001-04-12 Thread Michael J. Roth



I wasn't saying that the ladies should get the short end of the stick,
but that both numbers should be back to where the men were in the early
80's. As the Final Four became more popular, the NCAA stole scholarships
from TF (and other sports) to assure the quality of basketball.
I won't touch the Title IX stuff, cause it would loud and ugly.
MJR
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message
dated 04/12/2001 5:53:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Return
the scholarship numbers to what they were
in the early
80's and that will make the difference.

Uh oh!
Shh! You will have the Title IX supporters in here raising a
ruckus.
But no truer
words were spoken on this subject.

t-and-f: Re: Scholarships

2001-04-12 Thread Dgs1170

Actually, as Title IX became more of an issue, scholarships on one side 
withered away, while on the other the pot of gold came raining down.
That is why the women have much better competitions these days

Faith is a road seldom traveled
Let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, 
the author and finisher of our faith" Hebrews 12: 1-2

RE: t-and-f: Why we question Chinese marks

2001-04-12 Thread malmo




Ed, I 
think that it's you who has his perspective all wrong. With three fifths of the 
world population it's the rest of the world who hasn't been heard of INSIDE 
China, "and for the most part (we have) disappeared."

malmo

  
  I think you're both right. Ben essentially knocked .3 off his 
  time. That is approximately a 3 percent improvement, which is huge at 
  the elite level.This was the difference between being the world 
  record-holder and beingan Olympicsemi-finalist if he had a good 
  day.  But if you take the Chinese 10K world record and subtract 3 
  percent, you get a 10K time that would have medalled at every olympics and 
  would have been fairly close to the old world record.
  
  We;ll never really know, becauseas opposed to Ben, who made several 
  well-publicized comeback attempts, we never heard from most of the Chinese 
  again. One or two of them left China and had some subsequent world-class 
  perofrmances, and a few of them popped up briefly, but for the most part they 
  disappeared. And we also have no real idea how good they were before the 
  breakthrough.
  
  
  - Ed Parrot

RE: t-and-f: RE: 5k/10k/marathon USOT qualifiers

2001-04-12 Thread malmo


I've seen the Reverend Jeff Wells walk-down Nyambui from 60 meters back in a
5K. He got da five kilo game.

malmo


 Jeff Wells(no 5k)
 Sandoval(no 5k)



 Confirm these to the list:

 Shorter(1972 for sure - Bakersfield 13:40's 5k, Qualifier in the
 10k/Mar. for sure )
 Don Kardong  (prob. '72 and '76)
 Jeff Galloway ('72 - probably)
 Meyer  (had 13:35i/27:53/2:09 ... but in '83 ... 16 months before
 the Trials)
 Ed Mendoza   (5th 10k/definitely had Q marks in Mar  5k)

 How long is the qualifying window BEFORE the track trials?  And
 how long was
 it, back in the day, for the marathon trials?

 If it has been MORE than 12 months before the each Trials race,
 respectively, then many guys probably were a three-race-qualifier.

 -BTMcEwen

 -Original Message-
 From: Jon Alquist [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 4:00 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: 5k/10k/marathon USOT qualifiers


   Brian McEwen queried on 4/11 if anyone knew of any US males
 who qualified for a US Olympic Trails in the 5k, 10k and marathon. 

 In 1968 George Young MADE the U.S. Olympic team in the steeplechase
 and marathon (winning the marathon trials in 2:30+ at
 altitude/Alamosa, CO), so I wouldn't be surprised if he also had
 Trials qualifing marks in the 5k and 10k. In 1972 He also made the US
 team in the 5k, so I wouldn't be surprised if he had a a 10k Q mark
 that year, but don't know if he ran any marathons (or if there even
 was a qualifying standard at that time). 1968 was the first year that
 one final race was used to determine the Olympic marathon team.
 Before that it was based on several designated marathons, so there
 was probably no qualifying standard to enter the trails.

 A quick review of 5k/10k/Mar results in my copy of Scott Davis's 1984
 "Media Guide to the 1984 US FOT," indicates a plethora of runners who
 likely would meet Brian's criterion. The following individuals placed
 in the top 8 in at least two of the races or likely had Q marks in
 both and/or marathon:

 1964: Gerry Lindgren (1st10k); Billy Mills (2nd 10k); Doug Brown (3rd 10k)
 1968: Lindgren (4th 5k/5th 10k); Mills (4th 10k); Kenny Moore (7th
 10k/2nd Mar)
 1972: Frank Shorter (1st 10k/1st Mar); Jack Bacheler (2nd Mar/2nd 5k in
 '68);
   Don Kardong (6th 10k/6th Mar); Jeff Galloway (2nd 10k/4th Mar)
 1976: Shorter; Craig Virgin, Gary Bjorklund, Bill Rodgers,
   Ed Mendoza (5th 10k/definitely had Q marks in Mar  5k),
 Kardong, et. al
 1980: Virgin, Alberto Slazar, Jeff Wells, Tony Sandoval, Dick
 Buerkle, Steve Ortiz, Doug Padilla

 I get the impression that a whole lot of athletes from the "Golden
 Age of U.S. Distance Running" (mid '60s to mid '80s) easily qualified
 for the USOT in all three events.

 BTW, does anyone out there have a listing of Olympic Trials
 qualifying standards for each year? Also, what was the first year
 that standards were established for entry into the USOTs? I don't
 seem to remember much mention of them back in the '50s, as everybody
 paid their own way.

 JON ALQUIST

 Original Message -

 Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:26:07 -0400
 From: "Mcewen, Brian T" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: t-and-f: Olympic Trials distance question

 Does anyone know of any males in the US who qualified for the 5k/10k/and
 Mar. for one Olympic Trials?

 I had a friend who did so in 1984.  We all thought it was good, but not
 earth-shaking, because he went about 13:40/28:40/2:17:16 that year, and
 there were plenty of sub-28:00/sub-2:10 guys at the time.

 The qualifying standards in 1984 were about 13:42/28:46/2:19:50 ... they
 have relaxed somewhat since then.

 Clearly many guys had the ability to score this "hat-trick" (Shorter,
 Bjorklund, Virgin, Salazar, Meyer, Eyestone, on and on) ...

 But do you know any who have actually qualified for these three
 races within
 the qualifying window allowed for a single Olympic Trials?

 - -Brian McEwen

 P.S.  What is the time window allowed for qualifying for these
 races at the
 Trials?

t-and-f: Re: t-and-f-digest V1 #3543


Tests on sedentary adult males comparing different populations. Testing at
birth wouldn't tell you much since your growth is to a large degree
genetically programmed. It would have to be after the last growth spurt.
Scientists testing muscular fiber type, such as Claude Bouchard whose work
is renowned in this area, focus on such a late teenage or early twenties
groups.


On 4/12/01 7:23 PM, "t-and-f-digest"
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:19:24 -0700
 From: Ed  Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: t-and-f: lung capacity
 
 Jon Entine wrote:
 
 East Africans also have huge natural lung capacity
 
 Do you mean untrained lung capacity?  The only way I can imagine you could
 test for "natural" lung capacity would be at birth.
 
 - - Ed Parrot

-- 
Jon Entine
RuffRun
6178 Grey Rock Rd.
Agoura Hills, CA 91301
(818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804
http://www.jonentine.com

t-and-f: Track and Field On US Cable TV

2001-04-12 Thread TANFDONLEY


632 - SUN  Sun Apr 15 08:00AM 00:30 Track and Field Gator Relays
634 - FSFL Sat Apr 21 05:00PM 01:00 College Track and Field Miami Inv
   Sun Apr 22 09:00PM 01:00 College Track and Field Miami 
Inv
651 - FSNW Sat Apr 14 10:00AM 02:00 Track and Field ???
653 - FSW2 Sat Apr 14 02:00PM 02:00 College Track and Field USC vs LSU
Mon Apr 16 01:00PM 02:00 College Track and Field USC 
vs LSU

All times Central. Channel Numbers are directv.
Sun - Sunshine
FSFL - Fox Sports Florida
FSNW - Fox Sports Northwest
FSW2 - Fox Sports West -2

David Donley

If anyone has a newer directv system you can actually program some of them to 
search for a title such as "track and field" and keep up with what's on the 
schedule.

Re: t-and-f: Track and Field On US Cable TV

2001-04-12 Thread Randy Treadway


653 - FSW2 Sat Apr 14 02:00PM 02:00 College Track and Field USC vs LSU
Mon Apr 16 01:00PM 02:00 College Track and Field USC 
vs LSU

I already saw this meet on FSW2 this past weekend (USC creamed LSU,
both men and women).
But that's not to say that FSW2 won't show it again on the 14th and the 16th.

RT

Re: t-and-f: Re: t-and-f-digest V1 #3543


 Tests on sedentary adult males comparing different populations. Testing at
 birth wouldn't tell you much since your growth is to a large degree
 genetically programmed. It would have to be after the last growth spurt.
 Scientists testing muscular fiber type, such as Claude Bouchard whose work
 is renowned in this area, focus on such a late teenage or early twenties
 groups.

Testing after the last growth spurt won't allow you to conclude much about
genetics.  By then, environmental and social factors could be the reason as
opposed to "natural" talent.  Now, if you took a decent sample size (in the
hundreds at least) of Kenyan babies and had them raised in the U.S. by
American families at sea level, you might be a lot closer to getting a
comparison.  Although really, you should do the same thing with a group of
americans of European descent and raise them in Kenya as well.  I doubt
either of these ideas is particularly practical.

Personally, I believe that genetics, environment AND social factors all play
a role, but I have no proof of that.  I suspect it would be very difficult
to design a study that would conclusively link genetics to adult lung
capacity, even if genetics are indeed the main reason for the Kenyan lung
capacity.  I suppose you could identify the individual genes that are
believed to be causing this, and compare these genes in Kenyans vs.
westerners, but even genes often have environmental triggers.

I am constantly amazed at how often conclusions are made based on samples
that could not support the conclusions regardless of the actual finding

- ed parrot

t-and-f: Joanie in Summit

2001-04-12 Thread Ed Grant





Netters:
 The 
NJ road-racing season had a very special visitor April 1 at the first Todd 
Miller Memorial 5K run in Summit. (Todd was a coach at several NJ high schools, 
including Summit, who was killed in a road accident last summer while driving 
some swim team members of a local club to a day at the Shore. He was also a 
dedicated marathoner himself.

 
Gracing the race with her presence (and I choose that word carefully) was Joan 
Benoit Samuelson, who probably hasn't run in our state for at least 15 years, if 
not longer. But Summit is in the same county (Union) where she won her first 
race outside of her native New England in 1974 at the first region I Junior 
Olympic CC championships. (Another winner at that meet was Alberto 
Salazar.

 She 
won again this time, defeating a pair of promising 7th-graders, Jenn Ennis and 
Jen Croghan (who ran recently in the 2M at the Nike meet in 
Landover).
 
Ed Grant

 PS: 
The men's winner, by the way, was list member Joseph Aloysius McVeigh, who 
defeated one of the infamous Lear twins, Tim (now coaching at one of 
the four high schools in Summit (a numbr which must be close to a record for a 
community of only 25,000)

Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon