Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Randall--it is what I know. They won the Olympic gold medal, which was merely a slip of keyboard. Either way, the point is made: your "thesis" is pure speculation and conflicts with all the evidence. Mine is congruent with all the evidence. On 4/13/01 3:10 AM, "Randall Northam" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 13/4/01 1:17 AM, Jon Entine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BOTH THE Nigerians and Cameroonians won the world cup. As I said - stick to what you know. Both the Nigerians and Cameroons reached the world cup finals, No African country has won it. Eygpt - East Africa - has been in the finals three times, Nigeria four. Randall Northam -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Anyone who follows soccer knows that Olympic games to World cup is like Goodwill Games to Olympics in Athletics. A brief look at the current FIFA ranking shows that the top two african countries are South Africa (22nd) and Morocco (30th) - both are powerhouses as far as distance running is concerned. So much for not having the "body type" to compete in distance events and soccer. How did we go from running to chess to soccer? :) Oleg. Randall--it is what I know. They won the Olympic gold medal, which was merely a slip of keyboard. Either way, the point is made: your "thesis" is pure speculation and conflicts with all the evidence. Mine is congruent with all the evidence. On 4/13/01 3:10 AM, "Randall Northam" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 13/4/01 1:17 AM, Jon Entine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BOTH THE Nigerians and Cameroonians won the world cup. As I said - stick to what you know. Both the Nigerians and Cameroons reached the world cup finals, No African country has won it. Eygpt - East Africa - has been in the finals three times, Nigeria four. Randall Northam -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
on 13/4/01 3:26 PM, Jon Entine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Randall--it is what I know. They won the Olympic gold medal, which was merely a slip of keyboard. Either way, the point is made: your "thesis" is pure speculation and conflicts with all the evidence. Mine is congruent with all the evidence. It is basic errors like this that make me wonder how much of the rest of what John Entine says is correct. The Olympic football tournament is not nearly as prestigious as the World Cup. It is a junior tournament for players under 23 years of age, with three overage players in each squad. The big European countries don't send full squads because their players are on league duty. Indeed there is no British team in the tournament Granted Nigerians are better at football than Kenyans, they are a little bit better than the Egyptians and Tunisians and Europe has plundered their players. The Nigerians are better than the South Africans as well but football is an even bigger deal in South Africa. There are many factors that stop Kenyans from being good at football. I'm not a physiologist but their body "types" look good for footballers to me. Apart from eating and drinking, the two things I know about are athletics and football and I have seen so many basic errors of fact in John Entine's posts that I have to question the rest of his scholarship. Randall Northam
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Randall: Rather than QUESTIONING my scholarship why don't you actually take the book out of the library and CRITIQUE it. Otherwise you will continue to make statements that are not supported by the facts, such as that Kenyans have a great body type for soccer, a fact that you are now apparently withdrawing. My minor factual error slipping World Cup for Olympic gold medal does in NO way effect the issue or substantive argument. You are creating a straw men. If you read the book and find errors, I would be happy to correct them. If you find the reasoning fallacious, go at it: I'll revise the book and eat humble pie. That's what discourse is all about, not questioning that WHICH YOU HAVE NOT READ. On 4/13/01 8:48 AM, "Randall Northam" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 13/4/01 3:26 PM, Jon Entine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Randall--it is what I know. They won the Olympic gold medal, which was merely a slip of keyboard. Either way, the point is made: your "thesis" is pure speculation and conflicts with all the evidence. Mine is congruent with all the evidence. It is basic errors like this that make me wonder how much of the rest of what John Entine says is correct. The Olympic football tournament is not nearly as prestigious as the World Cup. It is a junior tournament for players under 23 years of age, with three overage players in each squad. The big European countries don't send full squads because their players are on league duty. Indeed there is no British team in the tournament Granted Nigerians are better at football than Kenyans, they are a little bit better than the Egyptians and Tunisians and Europe has plundered their players. The Nigerians are better than the South Africans as well but football is an even bigger deal in South Africa. There are many factors that stop Kenyans from being good at football. I'm not a physiologist but their body "types" look good for footballers to me. Apart from eating and drinking, the two things I know about are athletics and football and I have seen so many basic errors of fact in John Entine's posts that I have to question the rest of his scholarship. Randall Northam -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Randall: Rather than QUESTIONING my scholarship why don't you actually take the book out of the library and CRITIQUE it. Otherwise you will continue to make statements that are not supported by the facts, such as that Kenyans have a great body type for soccer, a fact that you are now apparently withdrawing. My minor factual error slipping World Cup for Olympic gold medal does in NO way effect the issue or substantive argument. You are creating a straw men. If you read the book and find errors, I would be happy to correct them. If you find the reasoning fallacious, go at it: I'll revise the book and eat humble pie. That's what discourse is all about, not questioning that WHICH YOU HAVE NOT READ. On 4/13/01 8:48 AM, "Randall Northam" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 13/4/01 3:26 PM, Jon Entine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Randall--it is what I know. They won the Olympic gold medal, which was merely a slip of keyboard. Either way, the point is made: your "thesis" is pure speculation and conflicts with all the evidence. Mine is congruent with all the evidence. It is basic errors like this that make me wonder how much of the rest of what John Entine says is correct. The Olympic football tournament is not nearly as prestigious as the World Cup. It is a junior tournament for players under 23 years of age, with three overage players in each squad. The big European countries don't send full squads because their players are on league duty. Indeed there is no British team in the tournament Granted Nigerians are better at football than Kenyans, they are a little bit better than the Egyptians and Tunisians and Europe has plundered their players. The Nigerians are better than the South Africans as well but football is an even bigger deal in South Africa. There are many factors that stop Kenyans from being good at football. I'm not a physiologist but their body "types" look good for footballers to me. Apart from eating and drinking, the two things I know about are athletics and football and I have seen so many basic errors of fact in John Entine's posts that I have to question the rest of his scholarship. Randall Northam -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Well, it's old news that Kenyans, mainly Kalenjin's, dominate distance running today. Their evolution has made them superb distance runners. They have lived at altitude for millions of years. They have lived a harder existance than say the American silver platter life. I would like to make one point though about Boston: 2000 winner Elija Lagat, 2:09:471979 winner Bill Rodgers, 2:09:271981 winner Toshihiko Seko, 2:09:261986 winner Robert de Castella, 2:07:511990 winner Gerlindo Bordin, 2:08:19. Kenyans win this race, but so do Americans, Japanese, Australians, and Italians. They also win it in about the same time. Kenyans have seemed to dominate this race as of late, but not to the point where non-Kenyans can no longer win. They aren't winning this race any faster than it was won 20 years ago. Genetics and their way of life give the Kalenjin's a better starting point, but the finish line is the same for every runner. If the Japanese marathoners ran Boston then I'd think they would give the Kalenjin's a run for their money. In a few years I can see a handful of US runners under 2:10, maybe even under 2:08:00. Of course the US's best marathoners are running 10ks right now. Tick, tock, tick, tock Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Oleg: Actually, there is every reason to elieve there is a genetic component to that as well, but it's too long to get into here. The difference, however, is that the Kenyan example provides statistical evidence, but that is only a small fraction of the evidencethe rest is based on documented anatomical and physiological differences between populations, which also points to the same conclusion that bio-genetics are critical factors in understanding what's going on. On 4/12/01 12:12 PM, "Oleg Shpyrko" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Statistics is a pretty interesting tool for making this type of arguments. Example: Over the past 75 years the world chess crown belonged to a russian (and by "russian" I mean the broad definition of the term) 70 times out of 75. The chance of this happening by "accident" is even lower than the chances of a kenyan winning Boston 10 years in a row. To put some numbers together, it's about (.03)^70, or roughly 10^(-105) or 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Give or take a few orders of magnitude :) Someone please double check the number of zeros. For comparison, your number is "only" 10^(-36). My scenario is 10^(-69) times less likely to happen by "accident"! According to your logic, this should suggest that russian people have specific "chess" gene. I should also add that chess is not even considered to be among top 20 most popular sports among russians. Hockey, soccer, basketball, athletics, swimming, gymnastics, volleyball, etc. are much more popular. Why are we "afraid to talk" about THAT? Just an idea for your next book. Oleg. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon Here's some background for those trying to understand the bio-cultural reasons for Kenyan/Kalenjin dominance at Boston. For the empiricist in you, the last 10 Boston Marathons (male) have been won by a Kenyan. More specifically, all the winners have been Kalenjins, a loosely-named group of approximately 1.5 million people. The chances of that happening by chance, based on population statistics alone, is 1 in 1,048,576,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 . Or, as a decimal: 0.0001 For those who say it's because of social channeling, it's intriguing to note that running is a poor third in sports popularity Kenya, well-behind the national obsession of soccer (which they are not very competitive at compared to athletes from West Africa -- they don't have the body type for it) and cricket (at which they are decidedly mediocre as well). On the flip side, the best Kenyan time (or time by any East African) in the 100 meters is 10.28 seconds, about 5,000 on the all time list while the best time by a person of West African ancestry is 9.79 seconds. Of course it's ALL because of social conditioning and population genetics has nothing to do with it. Perhaps the most persuasive prima facie case suggesting that sports success is not a purely environmental phenomena may be found in the real-life laboratory of the Nandi Hills, Kenya and more specifically the Kalenjin, represents a mind-boggling concentration of athletic talent. The Kalenjin represent roughly three-quarters of Kenyas world-class runners (half of whom are from one tribe, the Nandi). Hundreds of years ago, what African historians refer to as a proto-Kalenjin population migrated from the Nilotic core area northwest of Lake Turkana to the Mt. Elgon area, where the group fragmented and moved to its present locations in the highlands. This is the home of the Nandi, part of the Kalenjins. The historical concentration of top runners among the Nandi, and the more recent emergence of top runners in the more northerly groups such as the Keiyo, Marakwet, and Tugen, could understandably be linked to the influence of the internationally renowned running program at St. Patricks in Iten, which is close to those three groups. However, these trends only reconfirm overall Kalenjin dominance. There certainly appears to be a common genetic thread that runs through the amorphous Kalenjin population. According to John Manners, who has written two books on Kenyan running, there feedback loop of the regions evolutionary history and East African culture is well established. Intriguingly, one of the few non-Kalenjin tribes to make a mark on the in-ternational running scene is the Kisii, with whom the Kalenjin have had especially intense interaction over the past several centuries. The Da-tooga (also called the Dadog) in Tanzania, who speak Southern Nilotic, a language very close to that of the Kalenjin, are one of two small tribes in that country to turn out
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Alan. Of course, you make great points. But don't expect a person of West African ancestry to ever win a marathon -- they have such small, genetically determined lung capacity and huge percentage of fast twitch muscles and other anatomical and physiological characteristics that it would be a long shot at best. On the other hand, East Asians have a great phenotype for the marathon and particularly the ultra-marathon, as I explain in Taboo. It is not just happenstance or culture that East Asians and their descendants such as the Tarahumara Indians are among the world's dominant ultra-endurance runners. On 4/12/01 11:42 AM, "alan tobin" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, it's old news that Kenyans, mainly Kalenjin's, dominate distance running today. Their evolution has made them superb distance runners. They have lived at altitude for millions of years. They have lived a harder existance than say the American silver platter life. I would like to make one point though about Boston: 2000 winner Elija Lagat, 2:09:471979 winner Bill Rodgers, 2:09:271981 winner Toshihiko Seko, 2:09:261986 winner Robert de Castella, 2:07:511990 winner Gerlindo Bordin, 2:08:19. Kenyans win this race, but so do Americans, Japanese, Australians, and Italians. They also win it in about the same time. Kenyans have seemed to dominate this race as of late, but not to the point where non-Kenyans can no longer win. They aren't winning this race any faster than it was won 20 years ago. Genetics and their way of life give the Kalenjin's a better starting point, but the finish line is the same for every runner. If the Japanese marathoners ran Boston then I'd think they would give the Kalenjin's a run for their money. In a few years I can see a handful of US runners under 2:10, maybe even under 2:08:00. Of course the US's best marathoners are running 10ks right now. Tick, tock, tick, tock Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
RE: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Statistics is a pretty interesting tool for making this type of arguments. Example: Over the past 75 years the world chess crown belonged to a russian (and by "russian" I mean the broad definition of the term) 70 times out of 75. The chance of this happening by "accident" is even lower than the chances of a kenyan winning Boston 10 years in a row. To put some numbers together, it's about (.03)^70, or roughly 10^(-105) or 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Give or take a few orders of magnitude :) Someone please double check the number of zeros. For comparison, your number is "only" 10^(-36). My scenario is 10^(-69) times less likely to happen by "accident"! According to your logic, this should suggest that russian people have specific "chess" gene. I should also add that chess is not even considered to be among top 20 most popular sports among russians. Hockey, soccer, basketball, athletics, swimming, gymnastics, volleyball, etc. are much more popular. Why are we "afraid to talk" about THAT? Just an idea for your next book. Oleg. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon Here's some background for those trying to understand the bio-cultural reasons for Kenyan/Kalenjin dominance at Boston. For the empiricist in you, the last 10 Boston Marathons (male) have been won by a Kenyan. More specifically, all the winners have been Kalenjins, a loosely-named group of approximately 1.5 million people. The chances of that happening by chance, based on population statistics alone, is 1 in 1,048,576,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 . Or, as a decimal: 0.0001 For those who say it's because of social channeling, it's intriguing to note that running is a poor third in sports popularity Kenya, well-behind the national obsession of soccer (which they are not very competitive at compared to athletes from West Africa -- they don't have the body type for it) and cricket (at which they are decidedly mediocre as well). On the flip side, the best Kenyan time (or time by any East African) in the 100 meters is 10.28 seconds, about 5,000 on the all time list while the best time by a person of West African ancestry is 9.79 seconds. Of course it's ALL because of social conditioning and population genetics has nothing to do with it. Perhaps the most persuasive prima facie case suggesting that sports success is not a purely environmental phenomena may be found in the real-life laboratory of the Nandi Hills, Kenya and more specifically the Kalenjin, represents a mind-boggling concentration of athletic talent. The Kalenjin represent roughly three-quarters of Kenyas world-class runners (half of whom are from one tribe, the Nandi). Hundreds of years ago, what African historians refer to as a proto-Kalenjin population migrated from the Nilotic core area northwest of Lake Turkana to the Mt. Elgon area, where the group fragmented and moved to its present locations in the highlands. This is the home of the Nandi, part of the Kalenjins. The historical concentration of top runners among the Nandi, and the more recent emergence of top runners in the more northerly groups such as the Keiyo, Marakwet, and Tugen, could understandably be linked to the influence of the internationally renowned running program at St. Patricks in Iten, which is close to those three groups. However, these trends only reconfirm overall Kalenjin dominance. There certainly appears to be a common genetic thread that runs through the amorphous Kalenjin population. According to John Manners, who has written two books on Kenyan running, there feedback loop of the regions evolutionary history and East African culture is well established. Intriguingly, one of the few non-Kalenjin tribes to make a mark on the in-ternational running scene is the Kisii, with whom the Kalenjin have had especially intense interaction over the past several centuries. The Da-tooga (also called the Dadog) in Tanzania, who speak Southern Nilotic, a language very close to that of the Kalenjin, are one of two small tribes in that country to turn out world-class distance runners in any numbers. The Sabei in Uganda, who are Kalenjin (they live adjacent to their Kalen-jin cousins on the other side of the border), dominate Ugandas increas-ingly successful international cross-country teams, even though they constitute a tiny proportion of the countrys population. And on a much broader, less meaningful scale, the Eastern Cushitic speakers who domi-nate the formidable distance running corps of Ethiopia have some distant connection to the Kalenjin, according to anthropologists. There is little doubt that for many centuries the Kalenjin have been a substantially stable
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
--- alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Of course the US's best marathoners are running 10ks right now. Tick, tock, tick, tock Of course, the same could also be said for the Kenyans and Ethiopians. My guess is, if the top Americans moved up, and so did the top east Africans, the Americans would slip lower in the world rankings, rather than climb. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - AbleDesign, Web Design that Can! http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
on 12/4/01 6:15 PM, Jon Entine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (which they are not very competitive at compared to athletes from West Africa -- they don't have the body type for it) I know I shouldn't step into this minefield, but I do find some of this, just as I found some of John Entine's other posts, breathtakingly sweeping. Kenyans don't have the body type for football (association football that is)! I don't know much about genetics but I do know my football, been obsessed with it for nearly 50 years and it seems to me Kenyans (runners that is) are skinny with a great power/weight ratio which is exactly what is needed for soccer. Speed is necessary but power is just as important as is stamina. Look at Thierry Henry of Arsenal. Looks like a middle distance runner, look at most soccer players, they look like middle distance runners. Very few are the bulky typical Nigerian sprinter types. If you were picking a football shape among sprinters it would be Don Quarrie, not Maurice Greene. Nigeria and Cameroon have risen to the top of the African football ladder recently but they still haven't truly overtaken Tunisia and Egypt. And the players in those countries look like middle distance runners too. Stick to what you know about John, you clearly know nothing about football. Randall Northam "When they said sit down, I stood up" my own little religious slogan.
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Book sales must be flagging. Time to drum up a little more cheap publicity by making sweeping statements that someone is sure to take issue with. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Why Kalenjins Win the Boston Marathon
Tests on sedentary adult males comparing different populations. Testing at birth wouldn't tell you much since your growth is to a large degree genetically programmed. It would have to be after the last growth spurt. Scientists testing muscular fiber type, such as Claude Bouchard whose work is renowned in this area, focus on such a late teenage or early twenties groups. On 4/12/01 7:23 PM, "t-and-f-digest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:19:24 -0700 From: Ed Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: lung capacity Jon Entine wrote: East Africans also have huge natural lung capacity Do you mean untrained lung capacity? The only way I can imagine you could test for "natural" lung capacity would be at birth. - - Ed Parrot -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
