Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
On 09.08.2013 23:19, Tobias wrote: I wonder if there is already a tag to describe a place where you can put stuff to others to share. For example you have read a book and do not need it anymore, but do not want to throw it away. In a Bücherregal - I guess it is translated a tradeoff - you can leave this book and everybody else who likes to become the new owner of the book can pick it from this place. Here is my tagging example. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1979409801 Any suggestions? Should I prepare a proposal? Do a Nominatim search for Offener Bücherschrank. That's how they are called in German. I don't know if those exist in anglophonic countries too. If not, there may not be an English translation yet. Anyway, they are usually tagged as amenity=library, because that's what they essentially are. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
Il giorno 10/ago/2013, alle ore 09:29, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at ha scritto: Do a Nominatim search for Offener Bücherschrank. That's how they are called in German. I don't know if those exist in anglophonic countries too. If not, there may not be an English translation yet. Anyway, they are usually tagged as amenity=library, because that's what they essentially are. -1, can't see other similarities than that both have something to do with books, they are quite far from libraries. A library is an organized collection of information resources made accessible to a defined community for reference or borrowing. (copied from WP), these are neither an organized collection, nor is the community defined, nor are the books for borrowing or reference. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] waterway highway
On 08.08.2013 11:10, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Can I have waterway=dam highway=* you could, but I'd suggest to use distinct objects and add layer tags to one in order to define stacking. I think that one single object should suffice as long as the dam and the road don't have different names or something. We don't make separate objects for highway=* and embankment=* either. However, I am afraid that some renderers are too dumb to extract a highway and a dam out of one object. That makes your suggestion seem fine from a practical viewpoint. There are bridges with a pipeline inside and a footway on top (or an underground railway inside and a road on top). In that case, we should definitely separate them in order to define layer=*. It is important to duplicate the nodes too because the pipeline is not connected to the footway (as opposed to the road which is connected to the dam). If we would care, even the nodes should get layer=* tags. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
Tradeoff sounds too unspecific to me. amenity=public_bookcase is used once already. Though here are also shelves to share other things so a bit more generic tag might be good. Somehow it is also related to 'give-away shop' without being a shop. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_bookcase http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_%C3%B6ffentlicher_B%C3%BCcherschr%C3%A4nke On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Tobias cra_klinr...@gmx.de wrote: I wonder if there is already a tag to describe a place where you can put stuff to others to share. For example you have read a book and do not need it anymore, but do not want to throw it away. In a Bücherregal - I guess it is translated a tradeoff - you can leave this book and everybody else who likes to become the new owner of the book can pick it from this place. Here is my tagging example. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1979409801 Any suggestions? Should I prepare a proposal? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
2013/8/10 hannes.janet...@gmail.com hannes.janet...@googlemail.com Tradeoff sounds too unspecific to me. amenity=public_bookcase is used once already. Though here are also shelves to share other things so a bit more generic tag might be good. Somehow it is also related to 'give-away shop' without being a shop. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_bookcase I agree that tradeoff is misleading as well. The public bookshelves I know of don't require any kind of trade off, you are free to leave books or take books or do both completely to your liking. The wikipedia article about public bookcase seems to be a translation of the German language article, I'd like to hear some opinion from English native speakers whether that term seems appropriate. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
On 10.08.2013 09:34, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: -1, can't see other similarities than that both have something to do with books, they are quite far from libraries. A library is an organized collection of information resources made accessible to a defined community for reference or borrowing. (copied from WP), these are neither an organized collection, nor is the community defined, nor are the books for borrowing or reference. - In Vienna the shelves are organized by Frank Gassner, and the collection is organized by the crowd. - There is a defined community, namely all people. - You may use them for borrowing. You may return the books whenever you want. I think that the main difference between a library and a shop (shop=books or shop=second_hand) is that the goal of a shop is selling books, while the goal of a library is to make books available without selling them. Many conventional libraries give away books for free if their condition has become bad or if they need the space for newer books. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] waterway highway
2013/8/10 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at I think that one single object should suffice as long as the dam and the road don't have different names or something. We don't make separate objects for highway=* and embankment=* either. However, I am afraid that some renderers are too dumb to extract a highway and a dam out of one object. That makes your suggestion seem fine from a practical viewpoint. in a simplified mapping you could use both on the same object, but generally I'd map a dam as an area and in this case you won't be able to simply add a highway tag. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
Tradeoff sounds too unspecific to me. amenity=public_bookcase is used once already. I was quiet unsure of the usage of the word tradeoff. I hope that there is a similar word which describes a place where you can leave 2nd hand things and it is offered to pick them up for free. In this context I also know a place where you can leave everything. So in this context amenity=public_bookcase is quite non-generic. Just assume tradeoff is the right phrase. I propose something like amenity=tradeoff tradeoff=public_bookcase Anyway, they are usually tagged as amenity=library, because that's what they essentially are. Sometimes they are called library e.g. Vertrauens Bibliothek. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/2359237222 But in this case it is possibly intended that people put a book and pick another up - which is not necessary for a public bookcase. But amenity=public_bookcase would be way more fitting than amenity=library in this case. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Tobias cra_klinr...@gmx.de wrote: amenity=tradeoff tradeoff=public_bookcase If you cannot develop a list of tradeoff values then keep amenity=public_bookcase. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdreist@... writes: 2013/8/10 hannes.janet...@gmail.com hannes.janet...@googlemail.com Tradeoff sounds too unspecific to me. amenity=public_bookcase is used once already. Though here are also shelves to share other things so a bit more generic tag might be good. Somehow it is also related to 'give-away shop' without being a shop. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_bookcase I agree that tradeoff is misleading as well. The public bookshelves I know of don't require any kind of trade off, you are free to leave books or take books or do both completely to your liking. -snip- This is quite close to the question, how to tag collection bins for charity shops: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:shop%3Dcharity We have a whole set of tags for recycling, maybe we should copy that for all kinds of reuse instead. That would be for places to leave things for reuse amenity=reuse reuse:books=yes For places to get things for free, one could maybe use shop=* and then some other tag to show it is for free. Maybe payment=free. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
2013/8/10 Pieren pier...@gmail.com On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Tobias cra_klinr...@gmx.de wrote: amenity=tradeoff tradeoff=public_bookcase If you cannot develop a list of tradeoff values then keep amenity=public_bookcase. +1, also if they don't have something more in common I'd go this way. The other place you wrote about of that allows to bring and pick-up different stuff could maybe also be a kind of shop? Generally it doesn't seem useful to look for all kind of tradeoffs (e.g. if you are looking for books you won't be interested in other kind of tradeoffs, and these public book shelves are quite a particular implementation very specialized for books, e.g. if there was a tradeoff for bicycles they would not have a lot in common with the book ones. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
In the university, there I've studied there was a place, there you could leave smaller things, which everyone could pick off for free. This could be a t-shirt or mp3-player or a pc-game or whatever... So I think it would be better to have a general tag for such a place (leave something, which you don't need any more and someone else can pick off this). If there is a limitation (eg. only books) this could be tagged additionally. Henning Am 10.08.2013 14:08, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2013/8/10 Pieren pier...@gmail.com mailto:pier...@gmail.com On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Tobias cra_klinr...@gmx.de mailto:cra_klinr...@gmx.de wrote: amenity=tradeoff tradeoff=public_bookcase If you cannot develop a list of tradeoff values then keep amenity=public_bookcase. +1, also if they don't have something more in common I'd go this way. The other place you wrote about of that allows to bring and pick-up different stuff could maybe also be a kind of shop? Generally it doesn't seem useful to look for all kind of tradeoffs (e.g. if you are looking for books you won't be interested in other kind of tradeoffs, and these public book shelves are quite a particular implementation very specialized for books, e.g. if there was a tradeoff for bicycles they would not have a lot in common with the book ones. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
+1, also if they don't have something more in common I'd go this way. They have in common that you can put books into both. The other place you wrote about of that allows to bring and pick-up different stuff could maybe also be a kind of shop? No. Its just the same without the limitation to books. if there was a tradeoff for bicycles they would not have a lot in common with the book ones. The idea of sharing: To be able to leave something and to pick something. In the university, there I've studied there was a place, there you could leave smaller things, which everyone could pick off for free. This could be a t-shirt or mp3-player or a pc-game or whatever... This is similar to a shelf I know from a pub. There you can put everything you like which fits into it. So I think it would be better to have a general tag for such a place (leave something, which you don't need any more and someone else can pick off this). If there is a limitation (eg. only books) this could be tagged additionally. +1 This is quite close to the question, how to tag collection bins for charity shops: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:shop%3Dcharity The difference is the size. The public bookcase are just a shelf and you do not get in contact with money. May be the trade at tradeoff is misleading. So we probably need another word. For places to get things for free, one could maybe use shop=* and then some other tag to show it is for free. Maybe payment=free. One problem might be the specification. Since its only for books you could use shop=books (which would be misleading - just an example). But for no specific stuff I do not know at value. amenity=reuse reuse:books=yes This could be a better alternative for tradeoff. I did not find a wiki-article. Is there one? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
Tobias cra_klinrain@... writes: amenity=reuse reuse:books=yes This could be a better alternative for tradeoff. I did not find a wiki-article. Is there one? No, I copied it from amenity=recycling http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Drecycling Recycling is apparently when you take things and use the material they are made of. Recycling of books would mean that they are pulped and the paper recycled. Reuse seems to be the term when you don´t destroy the things but put them to use as they are or after improvement. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging of topographic areas with a name
On 09.08.2013 07:34, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: On 08.08.2013 21:15, fly wrote: On 08.08.2013 01:24, Pieren wrote: I really hate type=collection. One of the worst idea in OSM. All relations are collections. +100 Especially, if you read: Relations are not meant to be used as collections It is interesting that you agree by +100 although your reason is the negation of Pieren's reason. Not at all but the meaning is different: * All relations are some kind of collection caused by design. * You should not use a relation to simply collect/group some objects together. This means I do not need a relation for all German Autobahns or all bus lines in a city or even all valleys of a mountain group. Even site-relations should only be used if it does not work without it (several non-connected areas). Another reason I am against this collection is that you might not always have the same borders with the subgroup (valleys). You will need to create a new (sub)-relation to get only part of it into your collection. Please use boundaries and not multipolygons ! cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
Places devoted for general reuse of things are uncommon where I live in the U.S., so I do not know if there is a consensus term for them. I have seen reuse and recycle facility or reuse and recycle center used a number of times. These places accept things and materials and separate them into items purposed for reuse and those for recycling. The term reuse shelf is sometimes used for the area at these facilities that the public may go to to get reuse items for free. Since the area may or may not have shelves, I assume reuse shelf must have some general meaning to be paired with such areas. Items may be one or more of books, household items, sports equipment, paint, building materials or other items depending on the facility. Places for just reuse are very scarce, as most people would bring such items to a donation center such as Good Will where reusable items are resold or use Craig's List. For books specifically, the term free library has been used as can be seen in this news article: http://www.denverpost.com/ci_23135032/tiny-libraries-front-yards-across-colorado-inspire-love. The article has references to the Little Free Library movement which has over 5000 locations mapped (using google maps and a registration fee to be mapped). Little Free Library is a registered trademark so can not be used. Although used in this and other news articles I've seen, I think free library is easily misunderstood and the intention may be lending rather than swapping or reuse. It may be useful to differentiate between a policy of lending, swapping, or free to take by such places. As for the term used in OSM, reuse seems to be understood whereas I don't think tradeoff would be. If one must specifically leave something to get something, swap is commonly used in the U.S. +1 for the idea of leveraging the existing OSM recycle tagging -- perhaps by reuse :-) . Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging of topographic areas with a name
Il giorno 10/ago/2013, alle ore 18:17, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com ha scritto: Please use boundaries and not multipolygons ! for valleys?? boundaries are linear objects (generally delimiting areas), multipolygons are areas cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Re : Tagging of topographic areas with a name
I understand site relation for disjoint elements, not necessarily areas, but altogether defining a fuzzy area. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Hiking tracks as POIs in Brazil
I found out that in Germany they also map guideposts (Wegzeichen) similarly to the UK and to what Henning Scholland suggested. They seem to use them as trailheads as well. I'm not a native speaker, but I think that guidepost implies that a signpost will be found nearby. Where none is found, mapping a guidepost could be a bit misleading. This is probably the most common case in our dataset. Moreover, a single guidepost could indicate the start of multiple trails. So I think that trailhead is an independent idea that sometimes is marked by a coincident guidepost. Defining a trailhead tag would allow representing those unusual cases (no guidepost, or single guidepost-multiple trails) more easily. So currently, I think I will recommend to the Brazilian community importing our hiking POIs like this: - a name tag with an added prefix as I described before - a tourism tag, which will initially be tourist=yes and later changed to tourist=information and information=guidepost (when someone checks which of them are guideposts) - trailhead=yes (if this doesn't catch on, we can remove them automatically later) - a fixme tag asking for further mapping of the hiking routes (no objections, and some supporters :D) On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:06 PM, Dudley Ibbett dudleyibb...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi In the UK we tend not to have trailheads. We do however have a variety of guideposts. The following link provides an example which may be of help in this discussion: http://www.peakandnorthern.org.uk/signposts/about-our-signposts.htm This is tagged with the following: information=guidepost operator=Peak Northern Footpaths Society ref=1234 source=survey;gps tourism=information These would generally be mapped as a separate node. Where the start of a footpath is identified but the route not mapped it has been common practice to mark the start of the way and put in a fixme. This is certainly very helpful when seeking to find footpaths that need mapping. Regards Dudley Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2013 19:47:37 +0200 From: pier...@gmail.com To: tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Hiking tracks as POIs in Brazil On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: I also think that a trailhead tag is needed. -1 I don't believe that implicitly determining trailheads will work. Why not ? Eventually, enhance the route relation with a specific element/role (e.g. roundtrips). A trailhead is more than where a trail crosses a road; it's a significant place to access a trail in the eyes of the hiking community, typically (but not always) with parking and typically (but not always!) a sign of some sort. Then map the sign, mark, board or guidepost with the already existing tags. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Re : Hiking tracks as POIs in Brazil
And a hiking route relation with role start or entrance ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Re : Hiking tracks as POIs in Brazil
That would be mapped later, but yes, I support extending the definition of route relations with members of such role (which would then reference the POIs we are importing now). The role could be named start, entrance or head. Perhaps entrace would cause confusion with other uses of the word entrace in OSM (generally referring to building entrances). Maybe entrypoint is a little better as a hiking/cycling trail could have multiple access points from a major system (like highways). On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 8:25 PM, yve...@gmail.com yve...@gmail.com wrote: And a hiking route relation with role start or entrance ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting Open - toilets, toilets:disposal, pitlatrine
Voting for: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dtoilets Is at eleven yes, and one no. The no is conditional on switching to a scheme allowing counting (e.g. 4 seats, 3 urinals). However, I am not interested in mapping to that level of detail, and would like to leave that to a future effort. While capacity tagging does no particular harm, counting the facilities for both genders will prove problematic for many. Capacity tagging does not add personal value for me (either large or small facilities may have a long line at the time I visit, for example). Any advice how to proceed? The no votor is not currently responsive, perhaps vacationing. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
Free box is the term used hereabouts. At a free box you can both drop off goods and pick up what you find. Related to that: Nearby here are a dozen or so donation boxes that operate like post boxes, accepting goods for a charity or pseudo-charity. several retail stores that accept donations, also retail stores that purchase used goods, some retail stores that accept consignment, and three places that accept almost any building and construction supply (and pay for the best of those). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
