Re: [Tagging] Galleries versus art shops

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-02-09 10:21 GMT+01:00 Frederik Ramm :

> (Leaving aside the fact that many museums will sell if the price is right!)



can you back this up by some real examples? I also have thought about this
and came to the conclusion that typically a museum would not sell parts of
their collection as long as it fits within their concept (they might get
stuff (e.g. by donation) that doesn't integrate with their collection and
will sell these).

Cheers,
Martin

PS: For the German situation, have a look at this text:
http://www.welt.de/kultur/kunst-und-architektur/article135284641/Lasst-die-Museen-endlich-auch-Kunst-verkaufen.html
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 10.02.2016 um 15:04 schrieb Colin Smale :
> 
> Are we writing our own dictionary?


your links don't seem to bring much news into the discussion, especially as 
they aren't for "hardware store" or "diy store".

I also like Johns observation of diy stores selling the material as well, while 
hardware stores mostly not. Actually from my observation the hardware store 
sells some kind of material but others not (they'd sell wire and nails/screws, 
glue, paint and even small amounts of gypsum or cement, also smaller extruded 
metal profiles might be available, or chainlink mesh, but not wood or metal 
sheets or bigger metal profiles (for steel framework) or brick, or roof tiles 
or pipes or sinks or shower cabins, or tiles or ...


cheers 
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Galleries versus art shops

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 11 February 2016 at 09:53, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> can you back this up by some real examples? I also have thought about this
> and came to the conclusion that typically a museum would not sell parts of
> their collection as long as it fits within their concept (they might get
> stuff (e.g. by donation) that doesn't integrate with their collection and
> will sell these).

This is an example:
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2011/09/museums_round_on_gouda_gallery/

A small local Dutch museum sold a painting to a private party, to
improve their financial situation. For doing so, they risk being
expelled from the Dutch federation of museums. I think that underlines
your point.

-- Matthijs

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 09.02.2016 um 20:30 schrieb Philip Barnes :
> 
> The difference is about service, a shop=doityourself is about pile it
> high and sell it cheap. The staff have little or no knowledge beyond
> how things are labelled and certainly can't suggest a thingy that fits
> a watchamecallit.
> 
> In a hardware shop the staff will be able to give advice, will happily
> sell you one of something and not insist you buy a complete pack.


+1, these seem to be good definitions for a distinction.

cheers 
Martin 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-02-11 2:44 GMT+01:00 Greg Troxel :

> We have to separate words that appear in names from tag definitions that
> happen to use the same words.
>


words in names are strong indications. The word "gallery" has multiple
meanings, that why the word "contemporary art gallery" is there to
distinguish these from the "paintings museum"-galleries.

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 11, 2016, at 5:26 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> ot (they'd sell wire and nails/screws, glue, paint and even small amounts of 
> gypsum or cement, also smaller extruded metal profiles might be available, or 
> chainlink mesh,

Usually they sell small amounts of many materials for very tiny projects, but 
usually the small amounts are for repairs of exists ting things. 

Many people repairing a toilet or a door may go to a hardware store. But no one 
finishing a room or building a bathroom is. The DIY is for "you can renovate 
the bathroom or build a deck" yourself - anyone should be able to patch a hole 
in the wall or repair a leaky faucet - that isn't the DIY meaning. I built a 
workshop in our garden from lumber and metal sheeting from a DIY. I bought a 
specialty tool to repair an old sink at a hardware store. 

Focusing on products available is the key. Making a distinction that is easy 
for mappers to discern in wiki (or iD preset) without cracking the OED and 
without having them make a judgment call on the quality of service (I have met 
morons and well-versed professionals in both) are very good things to avoid.  
DIY stores are open to the public - whereas many counties have restrictions on 
certain types of materials available. Though a pro or contractor may buy 
materials at a DIY shop, that is also not important - as the DIY sells bulk 
building supplies to *anyone* - that is the important part. 

Hardware shop: focus on:

Tools (power, hand)
Hardware (fasteners, hinges, etc)
Consumables / paint 

And Minor stock of materials (small lumber, garden) 

~


DIY: focus on:
Large stocks of above, plus

Focus on Large stocks of building materials. 

In addition, may include: 
Large stocks of fixtures/ home appliances / Outdoor tools/ farm supplies / 
landscaping supplies

Large stocks of supporting construction materials. 

Again, we're in a world where the DIY shop (Home Depot) has crushed the 
"general hardware" store (Ace), so there should be a lot more DIY stores in 
some regions than "hardware" shops. 

Javbw
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-02-11 10:58 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :

> At the end of the day there are an infinite number of combinations of what
> a shop might sell. It doesn't matter what examples are discussed here,
>  there will always be anecdotal evidence that it is wrong/incomplete. We
> are trying to reach consensus (I assume). If everyone just says that the
> shop near them sells X or Y this just emphasises how broad the spectrum of
> shops is. We are trying to model reality, not recreate it. That necessarily
> means compromises and simplifications. Talking about specific products like
> sinks is irrelevant unless you happen to be looking for a sink or the sale
> of sinks is essential to appropriately categorise the shop.




Yes, I do want to agree on a consensus, and I am aware that looking at one
example you will always find exceptions (those were just examples to
explain the concept, you don't have to fulfill all "requirements", it was
about a direction). But I also think that the distinction between
"professional" and "do it yourself at home" is not a good one for
distinguishing between "hardware store" and "do it yourself store" (the
latter might sell professional quality too, and professionals might go
there ocassionally to buy stuff because it is more convinient in their
actual situation (e.g. it takes them less time and they only need few of
something), I prefer the idea to look if they sell mainly tools, fixtures
and metal or also building parts, bathroom equipment and material like wood
and brick. Looking at the tools, there is generally a difference between
shops selling "cheap, occassional use tools" and those selling
"professional, use daily and eventually repair if broken tools", maybe this
can be expressed in a way? (I'm tempted to give "brand" a chance, this is
likely what a professional will look at / search for, but it will often
lead to multiple values).

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores

[Colin Smale]

The "store" can be factored out. It is about what they sell - what is
"hardware" against what is "stuff for DIY". 

Looking at what you want to get out of a system, helps to determine what
you need to put in. 

At the end of the day there are an infinite number of combinations of
what a shop might sell. It doesn't matter what examples are discussed
here,  there will always be anecdotal evidence that it is
wrong/incomplete. We are trying to reach consensus (I assume). If
everyone just says that the shop near them sells X or Y this just
emphasises how broad the spectrum of shops is. We are trying to model
reality, not recreate it. That necessarily means compromises and
simplifications. Talking about specific products like sinks is
irrelevant unless you happen to be looking for a sink or the sale of
sinks is essential to appropriately categorise the shop. 

How about giving ourselves a frame of reference? What use cases are we
adressing? That might help to get the level of simplification right. I
can suggest "where is the nearest hardware store", "give me a list of
the hardware stores", "what kind of store is at this location" Is
the "list of hardware stores" the same as the "list of DIY stores"? When
would a shop be included in one, but not the other? 

//colin

On 2016-02-11 09:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
>> Am 10.02.2016 um 15:04 schrieb Colin Smale :
>> 
>> Are we writing our own dictionary?
> 
> your links don't seem to bring much news into the discussion, especially as 
> they aren't for "hardware store" or "diy store".
> 
> I also like Johns observation of diy stores selling the material as well, 
> while hardware stores mostly not. Actually from my observation the hardware 
> store sells some kind of material but others not (they'd sell wire and 
> nails/screws, glue, paint and even small amounts of gypsum or cement, also 
> smaller extruded metal profiles might be available, or chainlink mesh, but 
> not wood or metal sheets or bigger metal profiles (for steel framework) or 
> brick, or roof tiles or pipes or sinks or shower cabins, or tiles or ...
> 
> cheers 
> Martin 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
 ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores

[Paul Johnson]

Good timing, Colin.  I was about to bring up what differentiates DIY from,
say, a lumberyard or a steel yard, which focuses primarily on the materials
wholesale and may (for example, Parr Lumber
) incidentally have a small
hardware and paint shop (at radically inflated prices).

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:31 AM, Colin Smale  wrote:

> Large stocks of building materials and supporting construction materials
> is what I would probably call a "builders merchant".
>
>
>
> http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/builders%27-merchant?q=builders+merchant
>
> But note the third example sentence: "The boundaries between builders'
> merchants and DIY operators is becoming increasingly blurred."
>
> Buying enough stuff to put up a shelf might come under "DIY" but the same
> stuff in quantities to build a new room extension is a different ballgame
> and then I would search for a builders merchant in the area, not a DIY shop.
>
> //colin
>
> On 2016-02-11 11:31, John Willis wrote:
>
>
>
> Javbw
>
> On Feb 11, 2016, at 5:26 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
> ot (they'd sell wire and nails/screws, glue, paint and even small amounts
> of gypsum or cement, also smaller extruded metal profiles might be
> available, or chainlink mesh,
>
>
> Usually they sell small amounts of many materials for very tiny projects,
> but usually the small amounts are for repairs of exists ting things.
>
> Many people repairing a toilet or a door may go to a hardware store. But
> no one finishing a room or building a bathroom is. The DIY is for "you can
> renovate the bathroom or build a deck" yourself - anyone should be able to
> patch a hole in the wall or repair a leaky faucet - that isn't the DIY
> meaning. I built a workshop in our garden from lumber and metal sheeting
> from a DIY. I bought a specialty tool to repair an old sink at a hardware
> store.
>
> Focusing on products available is the key. Making a distinction that is
> easy for mappers to discern in wiki (or iD preset) without cracking the OED
> and without having them make a judgment call on the quality of service (I
> have met morons and well-versed professionals in both) are very good things
> to avoid.  DIY stores are open to the public - whereas many counties have
> restrictions on certain types of materials available. Though a pro or
> contractor may buy materials at a DIY shop, that is also not important - as
> the DIY sells bulk building supplies to *anyone* - that is the important
> part.
>
> Hardware shop: focus on:
>
> Tools (power, hand)
> Hardware (fasteners, hinges, etc)
> Consumables / paint
>
> And Minor stock of materials (small lumber, garden)
>
> ~
>
>
> DIY: focus on:
> Large stocks of above, plus
>
> Focus on Large stocks of building materials.
>
> In addition, may include:
> Large stocks of fixtures/ home appliances / Outdoor tools/ farm supplies /
> landscaping supplies
>
> Large stocks of supporting construction materials.
>
> Again, we're in a world where the DIY shop (Home Depot) has crushed the
> "general hardware" store (Ace), so there should be a lot more DIY stores in
> some regions than "hardware" shops.
>
> Javbw
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores

[Colin Smale]

Large stocks of building materials and supporting construction materials
is what I would probably call a "builders merchant".

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/builders%27-merchant?q=builders+merchant


But note the third example sentence: "The boundaries between builders'
merchants and DIY operators is becoming increasingly blurred." 

Buying enough stuff to put up a shelf might come under "DIY" but the
same stuff in quantities to build a new room extension is a different
ballgame and then I would search for a builders merchant in the area,
not a DIY shop. 

//colin 

On 2016-02-11 11:31, John Willis wrote:

> Javbw
> 
>> On Feb 11, 2016, at 5:26 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> ot (they'd sell wire and nails/screws, glue, paint and even small amounts of 
>> gypsum or cement, also smaller extruded metal profiles might be available, 
>> or chainlink mesh,
> 
> Usually they sell small amounts of many materials for very tiny projects, but 
> usually the small amounts are for repairs of exists ting things. 
> 
> Many people repairing a toilet or a door may go to a hardware store. But no 
> one finishing a room or building a bathroom is. The DIY is for "you can 
> renovate the bathroom or build a deck" yourself - anyone should be able to 
> patch a hole in the wall or repair a leaky faucet - that isn't the DIY 
> meaning. I built a workshop in our garden from lumber and metal sheeting from 
> a DIY. I bought a specialty tool to repair an old sink at a hardware store. 
> 
> Focusing on products available is the key. Making a distinction that is easy 
> for mappers to discern in wiki (or iD preset) without cracking the OED and 
> without having them make a judgment call on the quality of service (I have 
> met morons and well-versed professionals in both) are very good things to 
> avoid.  DIY stores are open to the public - whereas many counties have 
> restrictions on certain types of materials available. Though a pro or 
> contractor may buy materials at a DIY shop, that is also not important - as 
> the DIY sells bulk building supplies to *anyone* - that is the important 
> part. 
> 
> Hardware shop: focus on:
> 
> Tools (power, hand)
> Hardware (fasteners, hinges, etc)
> Consumables / paint 
> 
> And Minor stock of materials (small lumber, garden) 
> 
> ~
> 
> DIY: focus on:
> Large stocks of above, plus
> 
> Focus on Large stocks of building materials. 
> 
> In addition, may include: 
> Large stocks of fixtures/ home appliances / Outdoor tools/ farm supplies / 
> landscaping supplies
> 
> Large stocks of supporting construction materials. 
> 
> Again, we're in a world where the DIY shop (Home Depot) has crushed the 
> "general hardware" store (Ace), so there should be a lot more DIY stores in 
> some regions than "hardware" shops. 
> 
> Javbw
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
 ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores versus trade

[ael]

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 05:49:11AM -0600, Paul Johnson wrote:
> Good timing, Colin.  I was about to bring up what differentiates DIY from,
> say, a lumberyard or a steel yard, which focuses primarily on the materials
> wholesale and may (for example, Parr Lumber
> ) incidentally have a small
> hardware and paint shop (at radically inflated prices).

Many of those cases are covered by shop=trade:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade

ael


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Max]

On 2016년 01월 26일 15:53, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> On 26 January 2016 at 14:12, Marc Zoutendijk  wrote:
>>> I would like :
>>> - discourage tourism=gallery
>>> - subtype of tourism=museum, museum=art just like
>>> museum=railway/history, and further art=painting/...
>>> - also redirect towards shop=art for badly tagged items
>>>
>>
>> +1
>> This is a clear solution.
> 
> +1
> 
> 

Except we need a new tag for what is a "contemporary art gallery" or
short: gallery. because the current shop=art is not a gallery.

in the definition of shop=art it clearly says "The shop primarily sells
art products." Contemporary Art Galleries make their money by selling
art, but the typical visitor is not buying anything. It has a function
of display to increase awareness and knowledge about the artist (to
increase her/his value).

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dart



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Max]

On 2016년 01월 25일 23:44, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> The wiki defines the tag tourism=gallery as 'an area or typically a
> building that displays a variety of visual art exhibitions' [1]. This
> is an officially approved tag [2]. In addition, the wiki page on
> tourism=museum [3] specifies that art galleries should be tagged as
> tourism=gallery, even if they have 'museum' in the name.

The issue is that according to the wiki museums and contemporary art
galleries are the same thing, yet they are very different things (the
main thing is that the objects are for sale (but it doesn't make it a
shop either!!)

Just look at the picture examples, where the first two are museums, the
last one is a gallery. It's plain wrong to have those in the same
category. If we find this OK we can also tag it with something=art
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dgallery#Photos

> However, practice shows that the tag tourism=gallery is not very
> frequently used. We have currently 54 951 instances of tourism=museum,
> versus only 1 505 instances of tourism=gallery. I had a look at some
> famous galleries: the MoMA in New York, the Uffizi in Florence, the
> National Gallery of Art in Washington DC, the Van Gogh Museum in
> Amsterdam, the Musée d'Orsay in Paris, and the Guggenheim Museum in
> Bilbao. It turned out that all of them are tagged as tourism=museum.

Rightly so. None of them are galleries.

> This might be partly caused by ignorant mappers, but perhaps there is
> also a more fundamental problem. The line between a gallery and a
> museum is not always easy to draw, especially in continental Europe,
> where many museums have both historic and artistic exhibitions
> (compare for instance the Louvre). Also the fact that many galleries
> are called 'museum' does not help.

I see it the opposite way. Many Art Museums call themselves Gallery. But
as I said before, that's a different meaning of the word. We are also
not tagging Galeries Lafayette or Galeria Kaufhof as tourism=gallery

> How should we continue from here? Should we try to improve the tagging
> situation? Or should we discourage tourism=gallery, making it a
> subtype of tourism=museum?

I'd say so.1. depreciate tourism=gallery for museums, make it a subtype
of tourism=museum.
For actual galleries introduce amenity=art_gallery






___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Colin Smale]

Indications, may be, but no more than that. What it is actually called
is subjective - it was a human decision at some point in the past.
Politics often plays a big role in that decision... What is *IS* can be
made more or less objective by reference to definitions. 

On 2016-02-11 10:06, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> 2016-02-11 2:44 GMT+01:00 Greg Troxel :
> 
>> We have to separate words that appear in names from tag definitions that
>> happen to use the same words.
> 
> words in names are strong indications. The word "gallery" has multiple 
> meanings, that why the word "contemporary art gallery" is there to 
> distinguish these from the "paintings museum"-galleries.
> 
> Cheers, 
> Martin 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
 ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging