Re: [Tagging] Using restriction and restriction:vehicle for the same restriction relation should be discouraged

[Minh Nguyen]

Vào lúc 01:07 2022-10-29, Tobias Knerr đã viết:
On 29.10.22 07:13 easbar.m...@posteo.net 
wrote:
I like your idea of not using the except tag but rather something like 
restriction:value=unrestricted. Actually that would be the first 
useful combination of restriction and restriction:vehicle that I have 
heard of. But unfortunately this is neither mentioned in the wiki nor 
does it seem to be used that way.


Yes, this is something that would require a proposal to introduce, it's 
not established practice at this point. The reason I mention it in this 
discussion is indeed that it would be one example where restriction and 
restriction:vehicle on the same relation could meaningfully coexist. So 
I wonder if a wording could be used that would leave this door open for 
the future, e.g. by discouraging "different types of restriction on the 
same relation" (or some better wording to the same effect).


I'm still wondering: Do we ever need different restriction values for 
different vehicles, or for different conditions, for the same relation?


No, with the exception of the "unrestricted" concept I mentioned, this 
should never be necessary. Even if there is an obscure real-world 
situation with different restrictions on the same turn (same 
from-via-to) for different vehicles, it could be modelled with separate 
relations.


For context, this question came up the other day in the iD bug tracker. 
[1] It was unclear how an editor should depict a mixed-restriction 
relation. If it's unclear for editors, it's certainly unclear for routers.


In a sense, this is actually a common phenomenon: trucks must exit to a 
weigh station but cars may not. Or cyclists must turn right from a bike 
lane to a bike path but cars may not. However, these restrictions are 
already represented by access restrictions on the ways themselves -- no 
need for relations. Normally, way-based restriction tagging breaks down 
when the restriction depends on the direction of approach, but that 
would require separate relations anyhow.


One potential issue with relying on separate relations is that there's 
no way to indicate an order of precedence explicitly. For example, at 
one of San Francisco's most prominent intersections, an "except Muni" 
sign modifies a no left turn sign, exempting one bus operator that comes 
from the west, but not AC Transit. [2] At the same intersection, "no 
right turn except Muni and SamTrans" exempts both bus operators that 
routinely come from the south. [3]


Most of the bus routes in this part of town follow strict paths, so I 
just coined an obscure except:network=* tag and called it a day. [4] But 
this experience leads me to suspect there may be places where the 
real-world restrictions turn our usual access key hierarchy [5] on its 
head. Unfortunately, there's nothing to say that one relation takes 
precedence over another relation with the same members. (Incidentally, 
this is why I've shied away from proposing that we use relations to 
track overlapping parking lane restrictions.)


[1] https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/9337#issuecomment-1283492156
[2] 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:City_of_San_Francisco_(Unsplash).jpg

[3] https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=4265238293573050
[4] https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/10650926
[5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access#Land-based_transportation

--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us



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Re: [Tagging] Apparently bubblers emitting jet of water on buton press are water taps

[Davidoskky via Tagging]

On 28/10/22 23:38, Matija Nalis wrote:

This stands, however in many places on this planet (and growing by the day) 
there is now limited amount of drinking
water, and we often simply cannot afford to waste it - however much we might 
prefer such luxuruios carelessness are
constantly flowing water...


Agreed, though we are talking about how to tag things that do exist and 
what their uses are; not about the advantages and disadvantages of 
fountain typologies.


Fountains with continuous flow exist and are quite common in many 
places, some people such as Martin prefer these fountains because the 
water does not warm up and thus having a tag letting them know where to 
find these may be useful.


We shouldn't, for example, refrain from tagging such things because we 
think they're dangerous or harmful for the environment or the economy.



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Re: [Tagging] Apparently bubblers emitting jet of water on buton press are water taps

[Davidoskky via Tagging]

Most of the outdoor fountains I have seen are not chilled.

You get water at a temperature lower than the external one because the 
pipes are underground, sometimes the water is very cold; especially in 
the mountains where it could come from a spring.



Having a tap which prevents the water from flowing lets the water stop 
within the fountain; if the fountain is under direct sunlight it may 
warm up, especially if the fountain is made out of metal.


Thus, when you use this kind of fountains you often let the water flow 
for a while in order to discard the warm water and to get the cold one 
from the underground pipes.


On 29/10/22 00:38, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:




On Fri, 28 Oct 2022 at 18:23, Martin Koppenhoefer 
 wrote:


you’ll have to wait a long time until the water becomes cold and
can be drunken.


That one is a comment that stood out to me?

Is the water in your "drinking fountains" chilled, or is it just the 
natural temperature of the water coming out?


Yes, we do have cooled (very rarely chilled!) water dispensers, 
usually indoors where power is available, but for drinking fountains 
in parks etc, what comes out is what you get to drink!


Thanks

Graeme


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Re: [Tagging] Using restriction and restriction:vehicle for the same restriction relation should be discouraged

[easbar . mail]

Yes, sounds good to me :+1:

One more interesting case I found is this: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/10344810


restriction=no_right_turn
restriction:bicycle=give_way

But what is that supposed to mean? There are only two (2) such relations 
with restriction and restriction:bicycle=give_way tags. To me it seems 
like it would be better to use a separate relation for the give_way tag.


In conclusion maybe what should be stated in the wiki is the following?

* out of all restriction:vehicle[:conditional] tags the most specific 
one counts. redundancy should be avoided.
* combining restriction and restriction: is discouraged with the 
exception for future proposals where something like 
restriction:bicycle=unrestricted could replace the except tag
* give_way and maybe others should not be mixed with the no_<...> and 
only_<...> turn restriction tags


On 29.10.22 10:07, Tobias Knerr wrote:

On 29.10.22 07:13 easbar.m...@posteo.net wrote:
I like your idea of not using the except tag but rather something like 
restriction:value=unrestricted. Actually that would be the first 
useful combination of restriction and restriction:vehicle that I have 
heard of. But unfortunately this is neither mentioned in the wiki nor 
does it seem to be used that way.


Yes, this is something that would require a proposal to introduce, it's 
not established practice at this point. The reason I mention it in this 
discussion is indeed that it would be one example where restriction and 
restriction:vehicle on the same relation could meaningfully coexist. So 
I wonder if a wording could be used that would leave this door open for 
the future, e.g. by discouraging "different types of restriction on the 
same relation" (or some better wording to the same effect).


I'm still wondering: Do we ever need different restriction values for 
different vehicles, or for different conditions, for the same relation?


No, with the exception of the "unrestricted" concept I mentioned, this 
should never be necessary. Even if there is an obscure real-world 
situation with different restrictions on the same turn (same 
from-via-to) for different vehicles, it could be modelled with separate 
relations.


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Re: [Tagging] Apparently bubblers emitting jet of water on buton press are water taps

[Warin]

On 29/10/22 07:57, Matija Nalis wrote:

On Fri, 28 Oct 2022 16:43:07 +1100, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 28/10/22 06:24, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

there was a discussion about this, tap was seen as a distinguishing property 
that is yet missing. Handle is similar but not the same (handle is the thing 
you touch, if it is there, e.g. it could also be sensor based)

Sensors are not handles .. I'm thinking about it having raised the issue
on the handle discussion wiki page. I take my time with 'new' ideas
trying to get them somewhat right. I think the actuator is more
important than the 'tap'/'valve' and would give more information than
'tap=yes/no'.

there is also already existing/documented
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:actuator as well as
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:valve

and others (use taginfo link from wiki, and click on "combinations" to find 
them)



Sorry .. wrong word!

Actuator in OSM is it the thing that operates it - an electric motor for 
instance.



Not that interested in that .. more of what initiates it's operation.. a 
light beam being broken can open a door using an electric motor as the 
actuator.


A handle that operates a toggle switch can do the same, as can a 
pressure mat, an RFID card, finger print reader, retina scan ...


The electric motor says nothing about what makes it turn on/off.



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Start moving proposal announcements to the new forum

[Cartographer10 via Tagging]

Hello Yves,

Yes, I saw that. I also described that forum announcements should be made in 
that new subcommunity.

The reason why I prefer following tags is that I only get notifications for new 
proposals and votes. If you follow the entire category, you get a notification 
for every new topic in that category. That is a choice for the user. Because 
this is about proposals, I chose for following tags. 

I will add a remark to the proposal that category following is also possible.
Regards,
Vincent



29 okt. 2022 10:09 van tagging_at_openstreetmap_org_seblajk...@simplelogin.co:

> Vincent,
> I do appreciate your effort with this  new proposal.
> Are you aware that this week a new  category "> Tagging general 
> discussion > "  
>   has been created on > https://community.openstreetmap.org>  ?
> It's probablybetter to follow this category than suscribing to tags 
> (to-date)wiki, wiki-proposal, rfc, vote, proposal, ...
> Regards,
> Yves
>
>
> On 29.10.22 09:34, Cartographer10 via  Tagging wrote:
>
>> Hello everybody,
>>
>> Based on the feedback, I updated the proposal tostart using the new 
>> forum for proposal announcements. 
>>
>> Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talkpage.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Start_moving_proposal_announcements_to_the_new_forum>>
>>   
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Vincent
>>
>> ___Tagging mailing list>> 
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Apparently bubblers emitting jet of water on buton press are water taps

[Warin]

On 29/10/22 10:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 29 Oct 2022, at 00:42, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

Is the water in your "drinking fountains" chilled, or is it just the natural 
temperature of the water coming out?


there are a few “machines” that distribute chilled and carbon dioxide enriched 
water for a few pennies and where you fill bottles you bring, but these are 
relatively rare and are not considered drinking fountains, they’re an 
alternative. Speaking of drinking fountains, these are either fed by a spring 
or from the public water network.
Particularly in the summer, and if the fountain hasn’t been used for some time, 
you’ll have to let it flow until it gets to the network temperature, because 
the first water would be quite warm and unsafe to drink.



Best practice is to first operate the bubbler to let some water out 
unimpeded so;


the flow rate and trajectory can be judged

any dirt/bugs are cleaned out

the temperature can start to stabilize



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Start moving proposal announcements to the new forum

[yvecai via Tagging]

Vincent,
I do appreciate your effort with this new proposal.
Are you aware that this week a new category "Tagging general discussion 
" has been 
created on https://community.openstreetmap.org ?
It's probably better to follow this category than suscribing to tags 
(to-date) wiki, wiki-proposal, rfc, vote, proposal, ...

Regards,
Yves


On 29.10.22 09:34, Cartographer10 via Tagging wrote:

Hello everybody,

Based on the feedback, I updated the proposal to start using the new 
forum for proposal announcements.


Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Start_moving_proposal_announcements_to_the_new_forum 



Kind regards,
Vincent

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Re: [Tagging] Using restriction and restriction:vehicle for the same restriction relation should be discouraged

[Tobias Knerr]

On 29.10.22 07:13 easbar.m...@posteo.net wrote:
I like your idea of not using the except 
tag but rather something like restriction:value=unrestricted. Actually 
that would be the first useful combination of restriction and 
restriction:vehicle that I have heard of. But unfortunately this is 
neither mentioned in the wiki nor does it seem to be used that way.


Yes, this is something that would require a proposal to introduce, it's 
not established practice at this point. The reason I mention it in this 
discussion is indeed that it would be one example where restriction and 
restriction:vehicle on the same relation could meaningfully coexist. So 
I wonder if a wording could be used that would leave this door open for 
the future, e.g. by discouraging "different types of restriction on the 
same relation" (or some better wording to the same effect).


I'm still wondering: Do we ever need different restriction values for 
different vehicles, or for different conditions, for the same relation?


No, with the exception of the "unrestricted" concept I mentioned, this 
should never be necessary. Even if there is an obscure real-world 
situation with different restrictions on the same turn (same 
from-via-to) for different vehicles, it could be modelled with separate 
relations.


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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Start moving proposal announcements to the new forum

[Cartographer10 via Tagging]

Hello everybody,

Based on the feedback, I updated the proposal to start using the new forum for 
proposal announcements. 

Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.

 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Start_moving_proposal_announcements_to_the_new_forum
 

Kind regards,
Vincent___
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