gged
place=locality the way to go is IMO to create more specific top level
tags (or use existing ones like the mentioned "disused:/abandonded:").
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en if this one is deprecated an alternative would be invented.
But it should be used as sparsely as possible to make the data as
meaningful as possible.
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ery unlikely that software developers are
going to open the can of worms of interpreting relations that have
other relations as members. Especially for tools that need to deal
with differential data updates like osm2pgsql.
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Christoph Hormann
http
gs with a precise and tight definition for them and not a generic tag
for any elevated region.
In any case i think the most valuable thing to map of any of such is the
constituent elements and aspects of it like natural=cliff,
natural=arete, natural=peak, natural=bare_rock, natural=
ural=mesa with
appropriately tight definitions: Both being surrounded on all sides by
cliffs or very steep slopes, buttes with a height larger than width and
mesas with a flat top (i.e. height variation across the top being
significantly smaller than the total height).
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many different cultures world
wide without creating an imperialistic dominance of some cultures over
others.
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look for these things .. OSM failure to map them
> leads to other sources being used.
Exactly. We need to establish that there are things outside the scope
of OSM for which you need other projects to collect data about them.
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y cases not even being able to verbally communicate with each other
is quite remarkable. But this amazing cross cultural cooperation
hinges on on the local verifiability of those things people map.
Adding large scale concepts to the database that are not verifiable
based on local knowledge means t
greement - you verify the information on the ground and if there is
still disagreement it is by definition something that is not verifiable
(because several mappers evaluating the situation independently do not
consistently come to the same results).
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perfectly documented with a node placed half way from Cape Horn to
the closest point in the Antarctic (on the South Shetland Islands).
But as already hinted i am not sure if the Drake Passage is something i
would consider mappable in OSM based on local knowledge. Of course as
long as it was map
the images to resolve the situation or we can consult
people with local knowledge.
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eing part of the geographic reality as you see
it and i also see why you have a general preference for representing
these things in the OSM database with polygons. But i also see very
good reasons why you should change your position on that - some of
which i explained in my comments here. I
ink it helps concentrating on the arguments and not so
much on the people who make them.
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d try to
define it more precisely it would almost certainly be advisable to use
a different tag that is not misleading the mapper to have a much
broader scope.
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ut they are no replacement for formulating the
general abstract idea behind verifiability in a compact form that is
not tied to specific examples. Andy's idea of creating subpages
explaining how to practically apply verifiability to tags and
geometries is probably the right approac
d of course the suggestion that proper and precise
documentation helps applies to recording of geometries as well - not
only to tags.
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On Sunday 28 April 2019, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> [...]
>
> Seriously?
>
> Because one polygon is not a verifiable representation of a certain
> feature you want to replace it with - drumroll - two polygons?
I am sorry if that came across more dismissive than necessary - i was
distiction
between 'legal' real world stairs and ones that might exist but are not
allowed to exist because the algorithm can't deal with them.
But in general testing the suitability of a data model by testing its
usability in practical interpretation is a good approach.
--
de and tags for step count, height, inner radius and outer
radius.
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etween the two -
maritime boundaries are never geometrically identical to water
polygons. The tag maritime=yes is exactly fitting here - this is to
indicate a water polygon ecologically belongs to the maritime domain.
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e a
qualified decision and the ability and willingness in those fields to
yield decision making to others who are more qualified.
This is evidently something that is becoming more and more important as
OSM grows as a project and it becomes increasingly difficult for a
single person to be knowl
On Friday 24 May 2019, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> On 5/24/19 6:04 AM, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> > This is evidently something that is becoming more and more
> > important as OSM grows as a project and it becomes increasingly
> > difficult for a single person to be knowledgable abou
t conditions you have to
fulfill is very helpful in encouraging people taking the initiative to
start such a project.
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uth here - i have said what i said and
not what you have read into that.
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a standalone tag or with
man_made=embankment + embankment=both or embankment=two_sided.
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t depends on how well we manage to compensate for this
inherent bias.
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ject could be useful. It would encourage
everyone to contemplate their replies more thoroughly and not engage in
back-and forth two person dialogs - for which this kind of mailing list
with a large number of subscribers is not really the ideal place.
--
Given that the reasons why we have and should keep the verifiability
principle have been discussed really extensively this all seems frankly
a bit opportunistic.
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iscussion thread are not really a good medium to handle this
kind of topic.
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rly assess this,
the block history of user ulamm:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ulamm/blocks
And the OSMF ban policy describing the procedures regarding such
actions:
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Ban_Policy
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also applies to many
of the other ideas of status. In contrast to the verbalized
documentation of tags - which can exist in any language or set of
languages independent of each others the idea of a tag status is that
of a single status defined by aut
ch status in
taginfo (although if that involves the historic development that might
be technically challenging).
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eria individually than to determine an
aggregate score of some sort from them and a categorization based on
that.
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or
documenting tags they invent or to improve missing documentation of
existing tags.
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f other methods and suggestions
exist (linear way + polygon with the same tag, polygon only, linear
way+ polygon with other tag) but none of them has found consistent use
so far.
* A four node polygon transports no additional information for a runway
compared to a two node way wit
approach is without good alternatives is a misapprehension of
the situation.
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is a clear misuse of
the tag).
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guish between
boundaries at or near the coastline and those away from the coastline.
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* mapping a boundary with relation tagging only with no tags on the way
is correct.
* tagging the ways in addition to the relation is ok but not required.
* tagging on boundary relations superseedes any conflicting tagging on
boundary ways.
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e spatial
relationship of the boundary relations.
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d you should look at how the tag is actually used and improve the
documentation based on that. Even if the wiki seems to consistently
describe the meaning of a tag that is not necessarily the actual
meaning of this tag.
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teristic. I believe, but am not sure, that the same applies to
> the UK manor houses .
I think Martin's point was that a historic manor house does not have to
fulfill a present day function as administrative centre of an
agricultural estate.
--
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aches and tidal flats: A
beach is formed by waves, it therefore always has a significant slope
and is rarely wider than a few hundred meters. A tidal flat is a flat
area exposed at low tide that is shaped by the tidal currents.
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_
on=-4.390229&lat=51.716636&zoom=14&num=3&mt0=bing-satellite&mt1=mapnik&mt2=google-satellite
In the upper part this is clearly a beach (as visible in the Bing image
with high water level). In the lower part with the tidal channels
visible in the Google image it is
ext=nrj
https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/57675.pdf
Independent of that the placement of the coastline at river mouths is
generally somewhat variable. I wrote a proposal a few years back aimed
at defining some verifiable limits for that:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Fea
dysfunctional the tag documentation on
the wiki has become - in this case with the attempt to encourage
improvement of the tag documentation being scuttled by silently
removing the verifiability template.
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ent documentation of natural=tree_row
considers valid when done in addition) and determine the spacing from
these.
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are an undiscussed
mechanical edit and should be reverted.
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for the documentation and discussion requirements of mechanical edits.
> And it is only partly mechanical since I'm reviewing all objects.
Wow - i wish i had that kind of travel budget.
--
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ing with the idea of supporting brands in their own
> right, independently of a name .
I should probably add that what can be considered the name of a feature
is ultimately the decision of the local community.
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concept of a label here - which is of course something a lot of mappers
do when they choose name tags.
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to OSM's verifiability principle. There you are
correct. But human use of names has the tendency to converge to a
uniform name in many cases so if there are verbal identifiers used
there is also often a verifiable name.
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ge from
dry to water cover follows does not work. Offering this as an option
in case mappers have more in depth knowledge is a good idea, i said
that in the past. But making it mandatory is bound to fail.
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of the
ephemeral nature).
By the way about 100k of the 150k features with a seasonal=* tag also
have an intermittent tag and the ~50k which do not include all the
seasonal roads etc. So seasonal=* is for water features mostly used as
a supplemental tag to intermittent=*.
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his is primarily a
woodland or a bare rock area but you could document the fact that both
elements are present.
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was exactly opposite
What you wrote was clear, i was talking about Warin's proposal which
implies ("This should not be confused with intermittent") that you
should either tag intermittent=* or ephemeral=* but not both.
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landcover but many do
> not.
The concept is actually completely key agnostic. You could for example
also use it for urban landuse - like a residential area with also a few
shops using landuse=residential and landuse:secondary=retail.
So not a good opportunity to piggy-back your landcove
erlapping geometries of different feature types of the same or
similar semantic levels.
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cular concept - they can
> create a way of representing it themselves without a "domain expert"
> creating it for them first. There may well be a concept out there
> waiting to be mapped that needs a "landcover" tag (and it might be
> "municipal greenery"
key semantics are irrelevant for the actual meaning of tags.
What a tag in OSM means depends on what it is actually used for, not
what someone says the key used requires it to mean.
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ince it might not have been from my remarks - i
consider the influence of rendering on tagging decisions to be a small
one relative to many other influences. But there are cases where other
influences are small where map rendering can make a significant
difference - to t
y idea as bad).
As a side note: The human brain in highly capable in dealing with
inconsistent rules in the environment. Most languages for example have
grammatic and pronounciation rules with tons of exceptions (which is
not unlike tags in OSM by the way) but people manage
n the language but it just would not be English any
more.
Your brave new world with an intelligent design of orthogonal keys
would - apart from being an illusion (Kurt Gödel is greeting) - just
not be OSM any more.
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- instill a
desire for an authority to stop this even among those who are in
general in support of a liberal and non-authoritarian community.
An egalitarian and open community like OSM is a fragile thing...
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ing that could happen to OSM in the long term is
that it becomes 'alternativlos' to both data users and contributors.
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iki is to document the actual use of tags. Abusing this platform
to push political ideas how tagging in OSM should look like according
to some opinion is what i call derailing the community processes.
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ed on the wiki
> pages?
Any tag that is deliberately used by mappers (i.e. that is not a typo or
vandalism or similar) should be documented on the wiki.
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ers of course.
2) A good documentation of a tag on the wiki that accurately describes
how the tag is acutally used is very helpful for both mappers and data
users and as such very useful when making rendering decisions.
Attempts at writing a tag page (or a tagging proposal) on the wiki
specifical
ould not receive most guidance created by some tagging authority
anyway. Most mappers want tags that represent what they see in
reality, not something that fits into the systematics thought up by
some committee of people from Central Europe and North America with no
clue about the diversity in culture
r in other
words: Here it just means the opposite of stagnation.
Most people probably agree that in the OSM context the ultimate goal is
to create the best map of the world. And that for this you need a
global community of active local mappers. But this and all the details
around it is a very d
like
Approach 3 on
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Forest
See:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:landuse%3Dforest&oldid=200189
in particular the section 'Attention'.
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ps in a process to change tagging.
Please don't interpret this as a critique of your attempts to improve
tagging in OSM (which are admirable). My comment is only about
actively connecting this to editor preset decisions.
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resets any more since
there would probably be sufficient diversity for this to be self
regulating.
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s (and no, with hard
work i don't mean primarily to engage in endless dysfunctional tagging
discussions here).
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oices in quite a few cases is
valid. I just disagree that the solution to that is having self
declared leaders watch over the mappers.
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mportant to
stick to the former.
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erests in tagging development) would help you in
making decisions regarding tagging presets.
Anyway - i look forward to iD offering the possibility to include
different presets and hope this will lead to more diversity and more
choices in tagging presets available to mappers.
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t in OSM those who do the work are - by a very large margin - the
mappers. And developers should use the influence they inevitably have
to support the mappers in making competent and viable decisions - in
their interest, not in that of the data
e an incentive for outdoor activity
All of these do not depend on a data consumer (other than your fellow
mappers in case of the second point).
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s (like using surface=* or usage=* on
features it is so far not commonly used on) is also fine if it matches
previous use in meaning.
* adding new uses to existing primary tags is highly sensitive and
should usually be discussed first. Creating a new tag is almost always
a better idea.
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sed in a sense that matches their pre-existing use.
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routes within lakes is that mapping a navigation route that
coincidences with a river/canal running through and being mapped
through a lake is much simpler because you can just use an additional
tag instead of a separate geometry.
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ent a new tag if
there is a clear distinction between the two that is practically
verifiable by a mapper without specialized architectural or historic
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t is not how the tag is used.
water=reservoir is primarily used for dammed rivers. landuse=basin is
mostly used for water areas created artificially where there was no
pre-existing waterbody. If in your area these are mostly temporarily
water filled that is due to climate and n
ater=reservoir is in
addition used widely for any kind of waterbodies containing dirty water
(tailings ponds, sewage treatment plants etc.) where there is obviously
no pre-existing waterbody. So you have two fairly unrelated
applications of
en locally because natural=wood/landuse=forest is
locally verifiable while the abstract concept of naming some of this
woodland the Amazon rainforest is not.
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t
sure. Documentation of the tag does not provide any help. At least
the Oceania node seems more like an arbitrary labeling node - and the
classification and definition of Oceania as a continent is quite
culture specific as well.
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de up to convince mappers to map in a certain way for the convenience
of certain data users.
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find desirable onto OSM. Don't do that.
If you want to create such a wiki page to describe your subjective
perception of the situation that is fine - but you should indicate it
as such.
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if you are not ready to question
your assumtions.
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desirable water.
Long story short: My recommendation would be tagging waterway=canal and
specifying usage=* and width=*. This might not look ideal on the map
but will allow all data users to correctly interpret the data.
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age=* at the moment. Extending that
would be the best way to move forward IMO.
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icular part of the waterway.
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e kind of structures that were not
on the radar of those who originally invented the waterway tags.
> Now most of them are tagged with waterway=ditch.
You probably agree that this is somewhat unfortunate because there is no
way to distinguish them from a classic ditch for the data user.
-
to map the river width tag width=*, if you don't want to map
the width then don't create classes based on width thresholds.
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know it is wider than 1m and less wide than 3m you have a pretty
precise measurement.
> However if you enter width="2 m", the width value
> pretends to be exact.
Why do you assume that?
In OSM individual data points - be that in tags or in coordinates - come
with no implication
cases under comparable
circumstances with a known accurate reference value but practically
this is not feasible.
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the data. Re-tagging these into something different would just bury
the problems between other data.
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d of feature and not just generic underground waterway tagging
being used.
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d be that these are physically based rules
rooted in the observable reality and not based on political or other
purely abstract considerations.
Some newer examples of problematic closure placements (in addition to
the ones in the proposal):
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/46319
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