Re: [Tagging] [RFC] Feature Proposal - Cell Phone Reception

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 2:23 PM Timothy Noname  wrote:

> I thinks it's definitely valuable to map areas where there is no coverage
> at all as it's a safety issue
>
> On Sun, 6 Aug 2023, 21:30 Brian M. Sperlongano, 
> wrote:
>
>> This isn't really appropriate data for OSM, sorry.
>>
>
The data changes often, and can't be reliably mapped without tools and a
huge crowdsourced effort, updated
constantly.
And even if you did it, it could not be depended on, or
conclusively validated.


OSM is the wrong place. The right place might be:

   - https://www.cellmapper.net/
   - https://www.opensignal.com/
   - https://opencellid.org/
   -
   
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=info.zamojski.soft.towercollector=en_US=US
   - https://location.services.mozilla.com/

With the caveat that actual coverage depends on weather, luck, and how many
tin foil hat pigeons from the https://birdsarentreal.com/ folks have
surreptitiously staged in the area.

If you want to map something related to poor cell phone coverage,
map the few remaining existing fixed pay phones
.
That in theory might be useful to someone.
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[Tagging] Tagging for the renderer : One-way "flow" bicycle tracks

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I recently went on a hike, guided only by OSMAnd.  We ended up planning a
route
that took us uphill on what turned out to be a long series of one way downhill
mountain bike flow tracks.

I have no problem with the flow track: just had it been clearly delineated
we would have planned a different route more suited to hiking.
But I was left without clear tagging ideas.




One of the trails was
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/593945914#map=19/37.99250/-122.50667
highway  path

horse  no
name  Bunny
oneway:bicycle
 yes

surface  dirt
With a
clear direction, as it has jumps that can only be completed in a single
direction, and is all but impossible to cycle the "wrong way" on.




Is this trail tagged the best that can be?

Is there a way to better hint to rendering that this should look different
from a "standard" hiking trail, perhaps tagged:
highway  path

name Hiking Trail
surface dirt
bicycle 
permissive


I see that even *OpenCyclemap *does not draw directional arrows on the
"Bunny" trail or other oneway:bicycle=yes routes.
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Re: [Tagging] Problems with amenity=charging_station

[Bryce Nesbitt]

We now have national level efforts to map charging stations.

In the USA there's a central database that has the name, owner and charge
cord list for almost every station in the country.
Unfortunately it does not have the *precise *position of the charger,
usually just a street level address.

Charging stations come and go all the time.  Synchronizing with a database
would make the OSM version more useful.
(like the very old https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osmsync )


On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 2:55 AM Lionel Giard  wrote:

> In my experience (for cars at least, but i think it is similar for bicycle
> or motorbike), the most important tag on a charging station is the "
> *socket:=**" tag as it will tell you if you can charge or not. The
> access tag doesn't mean much about this, as technically that's the socket
> which limits charging (you can't plug a CCS2 (combo) socket into a bicycle
> for example as that's not a compatible socket). I think that most bicycle
> only charge on domestic socket (like schuko) and thus, the user can just
> filter on that type to see the charging place available. So if you have the
> information about the socket type availabe at the charging station (a lot
> of them have multiple possibilities) and it is compatible with the charging
> equipment, even if it is designed for cars, you can technically charge a
> bicycle.
>
> The access tag is more about legal access where there is a sign like "only
> motorbikes can charge here" for example (it really depends on the country
> too as a lot of countries don't have legal limitation for charging stations
> or parking places in front of the station). Also the bicycle=no can be used
> on any station that are specifically limited to some vehicle or brands
> (like Tesla supercharger where a motorbike or other cars can't charge even
> if it does charge with CCS because it is limited to the brand Tesla). I
> don't know if there are other use cases for the access tag, but these two
> only use the "bicycle=no" tag (and I assume that all other places are
> "bicycle=yes" by default).
>
> Regards,
>
> Le ven. 11 juin 2021 à 11:20, Volker Schmidt  a écrit :
>
>>  I am not a charging-station user myself,  but I got approached by two
>> different types of users about how to correctly insert
>> ebike/mobility-scooter charging points in OSM. Hence I looked into how this
>> could be done.
>> I started with the English-language wiki page
>>  and
>> also the German one
>> .
>> Both pages and the actual tagging in OSM present a major problem:
>> the indication of the vehicle type for which the specific station is
>> intended is not mandatory, an is missing in 80% of the occurrences in Italy
>> and Germany:
>>
>> amenity=charging_station
>>
>> Italy:  2045
>>
>> Germany: 14226
>>
>> The Netherlands: 3452
>>
>> amenity=charging_station and bicycle=*
>>
>> Italy: 140 or 7%
>>
>> Germany: 2542 or 18%
>>
>> The Netherlands: 444 or 13%
>>
>> In my view this is a major problem, but, as I said, I am not even a user.
>> I have no idea what overlap there is between categories. From an end-user
>> perspective I suppose that the suitability of a station for "my" specific
>> vehicle is the most important information.
>>
>> Any suggestions and/or  experience?
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Re: [Tagging] Cattle bathroom

[Bryce Nesbitt]

How about:

  amenity=car_wash
  vehicle=cow
  brushless=yes
  self_service=cattle_prod


don't forget the outdoor version with an
waterway=sheep_ramp
leisure=sheep_tipping


Erything above is :-).
For real, note that sheep dips are more or less made obsolete by backliners.
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[Tagging] Amenity "beach wheelchair". Wheelmap question.

[Bryce Nesbitt]

What's a good tag for a wheelchair with big wheels, available for
use by persons who might need it.

Same category I suppose as a mobility scooter at a store, or any other
specialized mobility device available for rent/borrow?
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging horse hitching rail / hitching post / "horse parking"?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 9:36 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Would be nice to have horse trough too.
>

How about: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwatering_place
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[Tagging] Tagging horse hitching rail / hitching post / "horse parking"?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

How do I tag "designated horse parking", such as:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4398390415/history

I don't see anything suitable at:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Riding
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Re: [Tagging] waterway=fairway?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

>
> On 18/07/2016 08:53, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>> why "seamark:*"?
>>
>
> This is historical. At the beginning of nautical navigation mapping, it
> was buoys, beacons, lights, etc that were being mapped.


In effect, it can be seen as "features that should appear on a nautical
map".  A seamap rendered output will
emphasize, or mostly use, seamark features.  The convention for seamark is
to dual tag when the feature
has both a seamark and a mainline osm tag.
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[Tagging] For comment: proposed mechanical edit: pitlatrine=yes to toilets:disposal=pitlatrine

[Bryce Nesbitt]

See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_edits/Bryce_C_Nesbitt
The semantics of the two tag styles are believed to be identical.
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Re: [Tagging] Subject: Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=social_path

[Bryce Nesbitt]

One of the great things about OSM, is that it shows the informal social
trails, cut through routes and fence gaps.
One of the bad things about OSM, is that it shows the informal social
trails, cut through routes and fence gaps.

I've been mapping these highway=path, informal=yes.  I feel that *access=no*
is *inappropriate* in most cases,
as these trails are often fully legal to travel on and in many cases
tolerated by land managers (note 1).

However: I'm disturbed by the knowledge that when I map highway=path,
informal=yes the majority of the rendering tools will show it as a peer to
a highway=path, official=yes.  I often  try adding width=1 ft  or some
other indication of a lesser status: but that usually misses the point. The
trails are different *because* they are not created or maintained by the
land manager, not because of any true physical characteristic.

Thus, there's a rendering fix for this issue.  But quite frankly a totally
new highway
tag would be a very direct route to affecting the rendering nearly
everywhere.

   -Bryce



Note 1:
Many natural reserves allow cross country or off trail travel.

In some cases land managers would much rather you take the established
social trail to a given destination, rather than create new ones.  Example:
a social trail leading to a popular viewpoint rock.  Here having the route
in OSM can limit the social trail damage.

One exception is in certain desert landscapes, where land managers ask
groups and persons to spread out the
foot traffic impact.  Example: some cryptobiotic soil areas.
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[Tagging] Tagging "bear boxes" (food storage for hikers). USA NPS and elsewhere.

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I'm interested in tagging food storage lockers for backpackers and campers.
The first of these were installed in Yosemite National park, California,
for protecting food from bears.

Newer versions have appeared in areas without bears, but where frequent
camping
has brought aggressive raccoons or other animals:

So perhaps:

*amenity*=animal_resistant_food_storage
*width*=
*height*=
*depth*=
*first_come_first_served*=yes/no(no if the locker is exclusive to a
given reserved campsite)

*compulsory*=yes/no  (yes if you are required to use the locker, when
provided).  Yes is typical.

operator=NPS (or whoever maintains the box)

operator:contact=-


See also:
https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/lockers.htm
https://www.nps.gov/seki/planyourvisit/upload/Food%20Storage%20Map%20March%202008.pdf



There are at least two types:

A steel cable, from which you can hang food
An enclosed steel locker, with a bear resistant latch.
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Re: [Tagging] Please don't think name_1 tags are errors.

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 8:25 AM, Ralph Aytoun 
wrote:

>
> New mappers have a lot to learn. They have enough of a problem just
> learning how to use the tools and finding out what basic tagging is without
> being inundated with error messages telling them they cannot save their
> work because of some technical fault. Let them save their work rather than
> it getting lost or they get so frustrated that they give up and walk away.


An error condition is a perfect "teaching moment" where iD could explain
tagging convention (rather than hiding it).
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=bicycle_repair_station

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>
> My first thought is that even fewer people will understand what this is
> than understand what a "bicycle repair station" is.  As I said back in
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-November/027436.html
> I'd suggest that you try and understand what's happening rather than just
> picking another key name and hoping for the best.
>

I've now interacted with over a dozen mappers who used the original tag in
novel and interesting ways.  The old tag is interpreted wrongly across
continents, cultures and languages.
*I feel that I screwed up naming the tag in the original proposal, and now
I want to fix it.*

-
I think most people have never encountered a self-service stand with bike
tools.  It's just not in their mental set.  Thus when the tag shows up in
their editor, they mentally map it to the thing they are actually mapping.

One of the nice things about the proposed schema is that it involves
*correctly* making *two* tagging operations
(the generic tool stand tag, plus the type of tools offered).  Any node
mapped without *both* is mechanically findable, and allows for deeper
investigation of mapper intent, and perhaps mapper-to-mapper
communication.  It raises the bar past the level of "iD brought this tag up
for me to use".


My goal is to enable mobile apps useful to a stranded cyclist. * Thus
accuracy is key.*
The data is also used commercially (
http://www.dero.com/fixitmap/fixitmap.html - despite the lack of
attribution).
And in apps such as http://www.bikeaidapp.com/.

The current growth in awareness the tag is encouraging, but the error rate
is pointing toward eventual failure and irrelevance.
I'm not going to walk a mile with a broken bike, unless I'm pretty sure the
map is reliable.

-
The scope of the tag is meant to be DIY tool stands, usually free, usually
open 24/7 or as long as the enclosing facility. Examples:

   - Bike tool stands (such as a "Dero Fixit" installed near bike trails)
   - Skateboard repair tools at a skatepark.
   - Ski/Snowboard tuning stations at ski areas or along winter trails.
   - Perhaps tools for removal or bending of fish hooks, at a fish cleaning
   station.
   - Maybe eyeglass repair tools, freely made available by an optometrist?

Tool lending libraries (
https://www.berkeleypubliclibrary.org/locations/tool-lending-library ) are
certainly interesting to map, but probably something different, as the
tools do not remain fixed in place.
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=bicycle_repair_station

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Any quick comments on this schema, before I write it up?

amenity=self_serve_tool_station
brand=Dero Fixit
operator=Metro Country Trails
opening_hours=24/7
self_serve_tool_station:bicycles=yes
self_serve_tool_station:snow_sports=no
self_serve_tool_station:ice_skates=no
self_serve_tool_station:skateboards=no
service:bicycle:pump=yes
service:bicycle:chain_tool=no
last_check:status=All tools vandalized
last_check=2015-01-01
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=bicycle_repair_station

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> An alternative suggestion - lobby the authors of iD to include the word
> "repair" in the "bicycle shop" description, or otherwise influence the
> search results.  If you search for "bicycle", bicycle shop is ahead of
> bicycle repair station.  If you search for "repair", you get "Car repair
> shop", "bicycle repair station", "bookbinder".
>

 https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2845
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=bicycle_repair_station

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 5:46 AM, Erik Johansson  wrote:
>
> amenity=diy_tool_station
> bicycle=yes
> iceskates=yes
> locked=yes
> opening_hours=during games.
>
> I only know of one for iceskates though, can I can't remember why it
> wasn't made a generic tag, the current tag is  a bit like
> subway_entrance vs entrance.


I do like this approach.
Ski resorts have tool stands, focused on diy ski and snowboard tuning.

I could mechanically tag the problematic "bicycle_repair_station" to fit
within something like this:

amenity=self_serve_tool_station
brand=Dero Fixit
operator=Metro Country Trails
opening_hours=24/7
self_serve_tool_station:bicycles=yes
self_serve_tool_station:snow_sports=no
self_serve_tool_station:ice_skates=no
self_serve_tool_station:skateboards=no
service:bicycle:pump=yes
service:bicycle:chain_tool=no
last_check:status=All tools vandalized
last_check=2015-01-01



Are there any other extant examples for "self serve tool station".  Or is
it just the ones listed above?




As to why?  The term "bicycle repair station" is well established by the
USA based makers of such devices,
and one of them supplied the initial data.
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=bicycle_repair_station

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Here's another confusion along these lines:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/30749887
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=bicycle_repair_station

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 4:24 AM, moltonel 3x Combo 
wrote:

> I don't see how a name change will help.
> amenity=bicycle_repair_station and service:bycicle:repair=yes are
> rather self-explanatory and well defined as far as I can tell.
> Abandoning a tag because some large contributor misuses it isn't going
> to improve the state of the database. Contact the ill-advised
> contributors to make them understand the issue and fix objects which
> got the wrong tag, but don't move a well-established tag to a new name
> just to make cleaning up easyer.
>

If it were just one or two, I'd agree.
The problem is more distributed, and concentrated in non-English areas of
mapping.

Note that I "invented" this tag in the first place, so feel a
responsibility to fix it.



I've left a number of notes or changeset comments and just feel it's
playing whack-a-mole.
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=bicycle_repair_station

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 7:26 PM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> Bryce,
> I've found a couple of these. One was exactly where the node was placed.
> The other, in Omaha, was a substantial ways away. And I still have found
> any of the four at the University of Washington in Seattle. I'm concerned
> that the locations are not accurate enough to have a bot add a node.
>

This is distributed human mapping at it's finest.
Tool stands are too small to show up on an air photo: armchair mappers need
not apply.
The correctly mapped nodes are largely the result of map notes.

A typical map note says that a tool stand is probably nearby based on a
press release: could a boots-on-the-pedals cycle over and check it out?
Hundreds have.  It's worked great in the USA (not so much in the UK).

PLEASE delete stations that are really not there.  I know it's hard.  Turn
'em into a map note perhaps, but definitely don't leave them as broken
glass in OSM.
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=bicycle_repair_station

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 7:59 PM, Andrew Guertin 
wrote:

> A quick search shows me there are 1922 total things mapped
> amenity=bicycle_repair_station, and of those 311 have a name tag. Assuming
> that all of the repair shops will have a name tag, and only some of the
> things with names are shops, this puts an upper bound of a few hundred
> incorrectly mapped shops. Of course, it could be hard to tell, as some
> shops could have outdoor tool stands...
>

The import that launched this tag included names (typically the nearest
building on campus).

A number of the things that are really repair shops don't have names.

Sigh.
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[Tagging] amenity=bicycle_repair_station

[Bryce Nesbitt]

amenity=bicycle_repair_station has a problem: it's attracting lots of
active tagging
of shops offering bicycle repair.  For example:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3772809894
and http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/337421757


That was not the intent.  amenity=bicycle_repair_station was meant for
unattended
tool stands, often outdoors, often 24/7, generally public.

I'm seeking support for a mechanical edit to a new tag name.
There are known automated clients of this tag, and I am in contact with
both.
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Re: [Tagging] More human readable values for traffic signs

[Bryce Nesbitt]

How about

traffic_sign:transcription=__

For a copy, in the local language, of the text on the sign.  This is what a
GPS might speak to you
(or, if blind people drove cars, what you'd say to them):

traffic_sign=no_parking
traffic_sign:transcription=No truck parking 8am-9am on school days. 10
minute limit at all other times.
traffic_sign:scope=regulatory

traffic_sign:transcription=Curve Left 20 mph
traffic_sign:scope=advisory

traffic_sign:transcription=STOP
traffic_sign:scope=regulatory

traffic_sign:transcription=Speed limit 25mph unless otherwise posted.
traffic_sign:scope=regulatory
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Re: [Tagging] waterway=penstock to complete pipeline tagging

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 4:41 AM, François Lacombe 
wrote:
>
> Currently, I find something missing regarding man_made=pipeline +
> substance=water because a pipe carrying water can correspond to many
> things in reality.
> man_made=pipeline + substance=water + *waterway=penstock* would fill the
> lack.
>

The problem with man_made + waterway on the same node, is both are top
level tags.
Here you'd want a refinement tag for pipeline.

--

There are two valid but separate goals to keep in mind.  Are you mapping
the:
* Visible surface features
* The flow of material

Both are valid mapping goals.  For mapping the flow you want a continuous
link of
tags that imply water flow.  That penstock comes from a reservoir or weir,
passes through a generating station, and exits into a canal which dumps
into a river
or a sink.  That flow could be one way or in the case of storage reservoirs
two ways (pumped
uphill at low demand times).

Equally valid is mapping the surface expression only.  Those are pipes
sticking up out of the ground (a man made feature).
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Re: [Tagging] large roof garden

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Richard  wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 10:45:21AM -0400, Andrew MacKinnon wrote:
>
> > > roof:material=plants
> >
> > The City of Toronto mandates "green roofs" on most new buildings. They
> > generally only cover part of the roof surface though.


Ok, THAT grass is clearly a building material: no different than bricks or
stucco.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building:material

The type of green roof that's a park or rooftop garden seems like it's a
park with a level= tag
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Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 5:02 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
> it depends how you use the word "Doppelhaus". Legally it means 2 touching
> houses on 2 parcels. Architectonically it means 2 more or less symmetric
> buildings that touch. They don't have to share the same materials or
> colours (mostly they do, sometimes they don't), but rather the building
> layout/facades. Completely different buildings touching at one side are
> called differently (einseitig angebaut, etc.)


American terms:

*duplex*: technically, one building with separate entrances.  But also used
far more broadly, and duplexes are a hot real estate term.
*duplex apartment*: single unit spread over two floors.
*triplex apartment*: single unit spread over three floors.
*condo* : single building with multiple owners.  Owners also belong to an
association, which manages the common areas.
*semidetached* or *twin*: houses that share a wall at the property line.
These are often called *duplexes*.  The haves of a twin look the same,
unless perhaps it's also a *spite house*.
*maisonette*: rough British equivalent of duplex apartment.


>From the OSM point of view it may be better to break it down to atomic
questions:

   1. Does it straddle a parcel boundary?
   2. Apartment/Deeded owners or mixed?
   3. Are the architectural styles unified?




 building=semidetached_house is a tag I don't really know what to do with,
and would thus ignore.
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Re: [Tagging] barrier enforcing maxwidth

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 9:52 PM, Andrew Errington 
wrote:

> I don't think a new tag is warranted.  maxwidth=* is fairly unequivocal.
> If map users or routers want to interpret it as "max width, but probably
> not really, there's probably a bit of extra space, I mean, who's going to
> be that petty" then that's not your problem.
>

maxwidth is often a legal restriction.
Here maxwidth is a physical restriction.

Those two concepts are best kept separate.
  Tagging maxwidth on a barrier node is a good start.
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Re: [Tagging] Proposed mechanical edit: surface=soil to surface=dirt

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 3:33 AM, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

>
> Is there some method to automate finding who introduced tags? Doing it
> manually would not be worth the effort. On the other hand - running
> script to detect users (and/or relevant changesets) may be a good idea.


Yes.
I find the stuff in taginfo, then load it in overpass turbo, export to
JOSM, and
use this dialog : https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/11413
That's a patch I wrote for JOSM that takes the current selection, and
counts up the users who make edits.


There are definitely other ways of doing it.
---
If I'm correcting typos with a mechanical edit, and I see a few users that
dominate the ratings,
then I'll send them changeset notices.  My rule of thumb is if it seems
like one off mistake, I don't bother.
If it seems like a pattern, I reach out.
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Re: [Tagging] Access tags (general question, but mostly regarding bicycle)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 6:39 AM, Richard  wrote:

> Just wondered - when did anyone here last see a wheelchair=no road sign?
> Is any
> of these 214658 tags correct?
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=wheelchair=no


wheelchair=no is defined by http://wheelmap.org/ conventions, and is a
suitability tag, not an access tag.
Thus you'd never write "access:wheelchair=no", where you might write
"access:foot=no".


-

The project I think would benefit from separating legal and suitability
access tags,
and from introducing namespaces.


Suitability tags are tricky and subjective.  For that reason they should be
more than yes/no,
perhaps following something more like sac_scale.
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Re: [Tagging] sport vs. leisure: High Ropes Course and Climbing Adventure

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I see the ropes courses as a type of amusement or theme park, and in fact
many of them are part of a larger facility.
Thus tourism, not sport or leisure.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dtheme_park
with http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Key:attraction of
high_ropes_course,
and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:website or website:mobile for
prices, booking details and operating hours.
A given park may have multiple attractions, such as a ropes course, a
slide, and a viewing platform.


This is a facility that generally must be booked in advance and traveled
to: thus tourism.

---
A smaller playground based zipline or flying fox would be tagged as a
playground feature.
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Re: [Tagging] sport vs. leisure: High Ropes Course and Climbing Adventure

[Bryce Nesbitt]

For example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2526893818/history
Part of a larger park with four attractions.

There are more tagging styles here:
taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=ropes_course#values
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Re: [Tagging] Amenities for kids parties

[Bryce Nesbitt]

A general tag for

rentable for events would be great,
where events may be open, or be specific like
weddings or birthday parties for children.
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Re: [Tagging] oil binding agent?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Note the subtle spelling difference between
absorption and adsorption:
http://www.integrityabsorbents.com/content/abvsad.php
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Re: [Tagging] Draft tag for Airport Security Zones | Non-voting procedure

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote:

  As someone who has been doing too many flights lately, in Canada
 airports often have domestic, international, and trans-border. Trans-border
 is for flights to or from the US and have a special customs arrangement.
 This is, unfortunately, unmappable. Which gates are part of which terminal
 can shift around depending on time of day and what flights there are, and
 there is no specific schedule.


Are these functions still handled in (mappable) part of the building?
Are the restrooms and charging stations assignable to a zone that is
constant?
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Re: [Tagging] Airport Pet Relief Areas (toilet and watering spot for pet and service animals)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Please folks, let's keep a bit of perspective. There are *many* reasons OSM
is not the place to micromap indoor private areas of any sort, secure or
not.

However back to the task at hand:
If a mapper can transit through a security zone while travelling, it's fair
game to map.
Toilets, drinking water, shops, pet areas, AED, whatever.
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[Tagging] Draft tag for Airport Security Zones | Non-voting procedure

[Bryce Nesbitt]

See:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/security_zone

Now I'm not going to run a regular vote on this.  The wiki vote process
attracts a small number of non-representative and rather argumentative
mappers.

Discussion about the tag is welcome. But instead of voting I challenge
mappers to tag these features in real airports, perhaps using this tag
style. As multiple mappers converge on a tagging that works, this proposal
page can be revisited.  If this is a good tag, that will show up in taginfo
after a while, and the feature can be documented as defacto.

Tagging votes accepted via JOSM, Potlatch or iD.
For example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3539479319/history
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging hand operated bicycle pumps (compressed_air)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 12:59 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

 repair station with tools=no seems a misnamer. like tagging a water sink
 as toilet, with toilet_bowl=no squat_toilet=no, hole_in_the_ground=no ;-)


Thus your proposal is?
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] README tag with editor support

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
wrote:

 The readme tag is more of a bandaid. A better way might be to capture the
 image date as a tag. The editor could then issue a warning message if the
 image date is older than the feature being modified.


The readme is more flexible.  Out of date imagery is an important cause of
an armchair mapper
undoing a local mapper's work, but not the only cause.

The image date will often be older than the feature, when using Bing
imagery.
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Re: [Tagging] Airport Pet Relief Areas (toilet and watering spot for pet and service animals)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 9:43 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:

   The 'sterile' I think is redundant.

 The sterile is *not* redundant, it's a grouping classifier.
Very important, given the blizzard of motley tags that may follow it.

aeroway_security=sida:xx
aeroway_security=sterile:xx


Otherwise you have to know about all the possible secure values to figure
out which ones are for
passengers and which ones are for airport employees:


 international
 international_departure
 international_arrival
 domestic
 domestic_arrival
 domestic_departure
 yes (as in there is security . but unknown or variable type/classification)
 no (as in no security)
 I do not understand 'aeroway_security=landside' ... ?


 landside is within the airport security zone, outside terminal
security.  Anyone can access this zone typically, but airport security
rules apply such as no lasers or guns.
Other security zones include Air Operations Area and baggage_handling
for micromappers.

A fuel station for example is likely in the AOA security zone and
inaccessible for example to caravans (That's one of the reasons
amenity=fuel is such a bad choice for such fuel stations).





Alternatively free text, unparsable, has merits also.  It displays far
better in a popup window on a mobile device:

security_zone=International Arrivals
security_zone=General Aviation AOA
security_zone=Bag Make-Up Room
security_zone=International Departures

Yes, in some airports General Aviation is it's own security zone, something
GA pilots must contend with.
It's neither SIDA nor sterile as objects may be introduced from an
unregulated airport.


http://picpaste.com/Selection_235-UxmuLt8r.png




So what colour should we paint the bike shed?
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging hand operated bicycle pumps (compressed_air)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 3:20 PM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote:

 Why not amenity=compressed_air + access:motor_vehicle=no ? I don't
 understand what's the problem with that tag.


probably better:
access=no
access:bicycle=yes


(otherwise everything other than a motor vehicle is assumed yes).
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Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Here's a writeup on a Duck tag for this feature:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Device_Charging_Station
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3539479319/history

I strongly feel that amenity=charging_station is fully entrenched as a
vehicle charging station, and thus a new tag is needed.
Using
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:power_supply#Tag_values_for_type_of_sockets
might work well, as long
as the top level tag is new.
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Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 12:14 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 10/06/2015 4:44 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:


 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Device_Charging_Station

  The name works well for the intended use.

 However it limits the use of the tag.
 For example .. a tourist might be able to charge their phone/etc in a
 cafe/pub when they stop for a drink/meal. It may not be a 'designated
 device charging station' but the hardware is there.



A power spot under the table at Starbucks becomes a node within the shop
outline:
amenity=device_charging_station
access=customers
operator=Starbucks
socket:device:USB-A=yes

Or an attribute of the shop:
shop=cafe
name=Quaint Cafe in Paris
device_charging_station=public  (no purchase required)

Event venues often have lockers (see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Device_Charging_Station
)
amenity=device_charging_station
access=destination   (it is inside a paid area)
operator=Big Event Centre Centre
fee=yes
lockers=yes


---
One could tag every power outlet that seems to be in a public space.  For
many years I charged my laptop at
airports by finding the places the cleaning crew plugged in their vacuum
cleaners.  But that sort of accidental
charging station is of a different character to a designated place.

Chain store device charging (like every corporate Starbucks location)
should be discussed.  Maybe adding nodes
to every one is less useful than creating a higher level expectation that
the chain offers the amenity unless
tagged with device_charging_station=no.
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[Tagging] Airport Pet Relief Areas (toilet and watering spot for pet and service animals)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

The prior thread on this subject was hijacked to discuss dog parking
areas.

I am seeking comments on tagging for pet relief areas: areas specifically
designated
for pet and service animals to go to the toilet during travel.

One possible tagging
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/346028062#map=19/37.71141/-122.20997
Reviews of such areas without maps:
http://www.dogjaunt.com/guides/airport-pet-relief-areas/



On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 12:14 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com
wrote:

 How might we tag Pet Relief Areas
 http://opendoorsnfp.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/ReliefGuideRev.pdf

 This is not:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:vending%3Dexcrement_bags
 or
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Ddog_bin
 or
 dog_waste_bin or a variety of other tags, though it probably incorporates
 one.

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Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:
 +1
 I would expect an available mains socket is the norm, a USB socket is
 rather fragile for public use.

There are tens of thousands of public USB sockets.  Vendors in China
make special
rugged sockets just for this.

Plus, if you take the time to real the proposal, there are lockable
cubbies for your mobile
device, which have multiple charger heads (e.g. Apple 30 Pin,
Micro-USB, USB 3.0, etc).

--

The existing amenity=charging_station could be retagged to
amenity=ev_charging or amenity=vehicle_charging.
With a suitable overlap period, data consumers could adapt.

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Re: [Tagging] Airport Pet Relief Areas (toilet and watering spot for pet and service animals)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

A tag is needed forinside secure area or not ideas?
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging hand operated bicycle pumps (compressed_air)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 4:37 PM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:

 Maybe it can be tagged with a variant of this?
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbicycle_repair_station
 bicycle_repair_station:pump=yes
 bicycle_repair_station:tools=no


The question is which of these tags can stand as the main tag.
bicycle_repair_station:pump goes with
shop=bicycle and amenity=bicycle_repair_station.



Are these there features similar enough to be under one scheme:
* compressed air at a car service station
* compressed air at a car repair station
* compressed air at a bike shop, , inaccessible to cars.
* Public bike pump, inaccessible to cars.
* Public compressed air, inaccessible to cars.

Unfortunately the compressed_air authors did not fully flesh out their
scheme.
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[Tagging] Tagging hand operated bicycle pumps (compressed_air)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

What kind of tagging would work for hand operated public bike pumps?
Something likely to meet the needs of data consumers, and thus eventually be
processed and rendered?

See:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcompressed_air
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3585224997/history
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbicycle

The compressed_air seems to have an implied access:motor_vehicle=yes,
thus using this for stations that can't be reached by car might reduce the
value
of existing mapping.


  amenity=compressed_air
compress_it_yourself=yes
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Re: [Tagging] Airport Pet Relief Areas (toilet and watering spot for pet and service animals)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 4:40 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 11/06/2015 6:17 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

 A tag is needed forinside secure area or not ideas?


 Humm ...
  'inside'?
 As in inside a building? Would not that be evident by the building being
 mapped too?

 'secure area'?
 If 'inside' then what more security that the walls, door/s window/s?
 If 'outside' then tag the fence, gates .. what more?

Self closing doors/gates should be tagged .. usefull for child playgrounds
 and swimming pools too.
 Self latching doors/gates should be tagged .. usefull for child
 playgrounds and swimming pools too.
 But those should be properties for the relevant door/gate.


Warin: please
do think and consider before posting.
Think to the subject at hand: airports.


-
An airport these days has a security barrier. A pet toilet area may be
located one side or the other.
For a passenger transiting from one flight to another, exiting and
re-entering security takes additional time and hassle.

Some airports have multiple zones: in particular international transit and
domestic transit.

-

For all airport tagging and wayfinding, it's relevant to know which secure
area the feature is located within.
The feature may be geographically close, but inaccessible to the map reader.
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Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations

[Bryce Nesbitt]

One could tag every power outlet that seems to be in a public space.  For
many years I charged my laptop at

 airports by finding the places the cleaning crew plugged in their vacuum
 cleaners.  But that sort of accidental
  charging station is of a different character to a designated place.


Why?
A random outlet is unlikely to be well positioned, maintained or
universally usable for device charging. People
are free to map those outlets, but rendering should be able to choose if
they are included.
I don't see these as the same feature at all.

---
Another type of port often seen are shaver only ports, intended to be
unusable for anything else.
Camp sites may have these, and they may work for device charging in some
limited cases, but they
are clearly not dedicated for that purpose.
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Re: [Tagging] Airport Pet Relief Areas (toilet and watering spot for pet and service animals)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 7:28 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote:


 On Jun 11, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:

 But Aeroway=secure_area  might be a usefull property tag to have ?
 Would have applicatrion to those shops 'inside' the 'secure area'.


 This would be a very good attribute to a node dropped on a terminal
 building. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


It should be flexible enough to accommodate more than one type of secure:

aeroway_security=sterile:international_transit
aeroway_security=sterile:domestic
aeroway_security=landside
aeroway_security=none

For now this would just be placed on nodes that are in a given area, such
as a charging station.
This sidesteps the indoor mapping/building level complication for now.
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (US:DMV)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

These are very specific government agencies.  This may be a place where
regionally specific
tags work best.  Maybe pretty it up with a namespace.

  office=goverment
  admin_level=4
  office:type:california=DMV

  office=goverment
  admin_level=4
  office:type:massachusetts=RMV
  name=Massachusetts Registry of Motor Vehicles


There's a whole set of assumptions about each type of goverment office that
would be impossible to
consistently capture with generic tags.  Here the Duck of duck typing
says call it by whatever it is known locally.
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (US:DMV)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Using one global scheme could make rendering easier, but muddy the meaning
of the place.
Usnig regional schemes would match map reader expectations, but likely lag
in terms of rendering support and processnig support.
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Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 5:40 AM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:

 There is an obvious limit to the number of types of icons that can be
 rendered on any one map before it becomes incomprehensible.


Rendering can choose to use the same symbol for two tags.
One tag however can't become two symbols.

While the rendering has a huge impact on tagging, OSM is foremost a data
set: one that can be rendered various ways.
It's important to get good expressive data.


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Re: [Tagging] SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Mike Thompson miketh...@gmail.com wrote:

 I am encountering the tags SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES on US
 National Forests. If I am making other edits to the OSM element in
 question, can these be deleted?  Converted to some other tag?


Those are leavings from an import.  GIS systems often export such
information for good reasons.
However given that OSM is itself a geographic database, these tags are pure
junk in OSM.

If there's a primary key from the original source, that has some value, do
leave that.



Also take a look to see if the shape could be simplified: often thousands
of points can be removed without affecting the overall representation.
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 5:04 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
wrote:

 iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should not
 show oneway at all.
 OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. Similarly
 are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'.
 Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what
 categor(ies) an object fits in

 --
 Mike.
 @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
 For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
 via *the area's premier website - *
 *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family,
 property  pets*


Perhaps http://wikimapia.org/ will better match your needs, and offer more
peace for your family, property and pets.
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Re: [Tagging] dock=tidal

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Why is this a property of the dock,
rather than a property of the water body.

What's wrong with floating vs. fixed?
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Re: [Tagging] dock=tidal

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 1:18 AM, Malcolm Herring 
malcolm.herr...@btinternet.com wrote:

 On 29/05/2015 08:41, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

 Why is this a property of the dock,
 rather than a property of the water body.


 A dock is a body of water. It may or may not be separated from a
 connecting river or sea by a lock or single gate.


Ah, that sense of the word.
Among USA English laypeople, dock is going to be almost universally
interpreted as a synonym for pier:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dock


To avoid confusion with pier, is there an alternative term that OSM can use
for
receiving waters?

The miss-tagging reported on this list may be rooted in confusion over what
type of dock is meant.
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Re: [Tagging] To mark as covered, or to not mark as covered?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Here is another excessively mapped covered tag:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/182529550

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Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

[Bryce Nesbitt]

If a building is all one address, I see no reason not to tag the building
outline.
If there are multiple addresses, then nodes are a good way to go.

Both schemes are in use.
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Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 11:33 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 26/05/2015 3:23 PM, Marc Gemis wrote:

 based on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Animal

 On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 6:59 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com
 wrote:

  While the names are confusing, the concepts seem to be:

  1) Hitching racks for temporarily restraining a dog.


  no tag yet


 Hitching rails .. not racks?
 none for horses yet .. so
 amenity=hitching_rail
 hitching_rail=horse, dog,


It's so much clearer for rendering to have a top level tag:

amenity=hitching_rail_dog
amenity=hitching_rail_horse

Then each community can work on their own tag definition.


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Riding
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Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas

[Bryce Nesbitt]

While the names are confusing, the concepts seem to be:

1) Hitching racks for temporarily restraining a dog.
2) A place for unleashed dog play and socialization.
3) Place to obtain dog waste bags.
4) Pet service areas, including a dedicated place for pets to defecate,
possibly indoors.  This is not just for dogs.

Plus
5) Kennels and other pet boarding centers.
6) Shops with food and supplies.
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Re: [Tagging] Damage Assessment Tags - Would like feedback on a schema

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 2:34 AM, Rafael Avila Coya ravilac...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hi Bryce:
 Have you ever done any single task of any Tasking Manager project?
 From your comments, it seems you are completely wrong on what the Tasking
 Manager is about.
 Cheers,
 Rafael.


Why, yes I have used the tasking manager, most recently in the Nepal region.
Why post such a question on a public mailing list?
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Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Here's another example of this type of feature:
http://globalaccessibilitynews.com/2014/04/16/brisbane-airport-opens-australias-first-assistance-animals-facility/
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Re: [Tagging] Damage Assessment Tags - Would like feedback on a schema

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 3:54 AM, Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 09:52:06PM -0700, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
  Note that just because you can collect some data, does not make it a good
  idea to put in OSM.  Maintenance is harder than collection: and who's
 going
  to go back three years after the HOT event and clean up?

 same is even worse with other data like phone=*


Phone is an interesting one.
I view it as helpful.
When the phone number or website change registration, it's a flat that the
OSM data is out of date.
In my website tag checker, I load the website given and look for the phone
number.

What it kicks out primarily are lots of restaurants that are in OSM but out
of business.

---
The damage stuff however has no such cross check.  It will likely rot in
the OSM database,
getting more and more unverifiable.
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Re: [Tagging] Damage Assessment Tags - Would like feedback on a schema

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 5:02 AM, Blake Girardot bgirar...@gmail.com wrote:

 The intention of the damage:event=* or maybe disaster:event=*  tag doesn't
 have much to do with assigning causation, and has more to do with tag
 maintenance. We want to be able to run projects that get objects that were
 tagged with an event related tag to review, revise or remove them.


But why put that node/way status in the OSM dataset itself, rather than in
a HOT tasking manager.
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Re: [Tagging] Damage Assessment Tags - Would like feedback on a schema

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 12:22 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:

  Because it become available to others .. like the government/local
 authorities who may be in charge of repairs?


Crowd source databases are not appropriate sources for government/local
action at that level.  Were there interest
from a government/local authority, that agency could be granted protected
access to the taking manager or other data store.

Adding tags to the main database is not the only option for collecting,
maintaining or distributing data.
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Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 9:34 PM, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Thanks for the great suggestions.  I'm typing on an iPhone so will respond
 fully after I reach my final destination.

 amenity=charging_station with subtags for clarification seems to fill the
 bill.


I think that's a choice with high long term costs to rendering and
processing engines.

What will happen is that you're asking rendering and processing software to
keep up with a blizzard of subtags.
charging_station presently is understood to mean a vehicle charging
station,
not a generic charging station.  Suddenly icons designed for vehicle
charging will start appearing inside airports.

Similarly:

power_supply=cee_17_red
power_supply=cee_7_4
power_supply=usb


forces rendering to understand a long series of values.  For an AC wall
plug that means understanding
that  nema_5_15 sev_1011 and cei_23_16 are all types of AC wall plugs, but
that USB is something different.
It's asking too much from the maintainers of rendering software.



If you're mapping a duck, call it a duck  not a
creature=thing_with_feathers legs=2 quacking=yes.
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[Tagging] Proposed mechanical edit for comment: amenity=ev_charging

[Bryce Nesbitt]

109 uses of
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dev_charging
remain, though
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcharging_station
has long since taken over.

The proposed edit will move over the nodes that make sense, and
completely remove amenity=ev_charging from the dataset.
Expected impact on data consumers is none.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_edits/Bryce_C_Nesbitt
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Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Duck tagging it's not.  One could consider the horrors of tagging:



*amenity=charging_stationvoltage=5socket:usb=4*


From http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcharging_station
But I think that's just as bad an idea as amenity=fuel;vehicle=no.



Better:

*amenity=device_charging_station*

*socket:nema_5_15=2*
*socket:USB=4*


I don't care that amenity is overloaded.  This is an amenity.



And even better:


*amenity=device_charging_station*
*socket:ac=2*
*socket:usb=4 *  (there are two types Android and Apple, but I gloss over
that)
*socket:apple_30_pin=4*


And someone who cares can invent subtypes for ac like sev_1011,
or worse set something for multi standard sockets:
http://fam-oud.nl/~plugsocket/MultiSockets.html

And subtypes for USB, as there are at least three types of charging port,
and a a dozen types overall.

These days world voltage adapters are all one can buy: the 110V vs. 220V
debate is over.  So no voltage tag needed.
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Re: [Tagging] Damage Assessment Tags - Would like feedback on a schema

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I feel this is a good example of a database that should use
OSM as a base layer.

A rendering engine can match a given primary key for, say, a building
outline
to the given damage assessment tag.

---

Damage assessment data is very transitory, compared to the lifetime of
objects in OSM.
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Re: [Tagging] Damage Assessment Tags - Would like feedback on a schema

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Blake Girardot bgirar...@gmail.com wrote:


 Damage info has been tagged in OSM for a long time.
 OSM already tags a lot of temporary and transient stuff.



 We are aware of the nature of the tags and want to be able to review,
 maintain the remove the tags, it is one of the main goals of any tagging
 system we settle on like that.


Yes, OSM has transient and temporary stuff, but maybe it's time to
transition away from that.
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Re: [Tagging] Damage Assessment Tags - Would like feedback on a schema

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Rafael Avila Coya ravilac...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hi, Bryce:
 Yes. Everything is temporary. So whatever we do in OSM for temporary
 objects has to be applied to ALL objects.


We don't store the number of chickens found in each compound.
We do store railways, the traces of which are often found a hundred years
after construction.

---

Somewhere in the middle is a boundary.

The mapping of survey data feels to be better served by use of OSM as a
base map, rather than attributes of the base map.
The survey data as well involves a judgement: the type that's often not
verifiable or maintainable by a latter mapper.

That temporary road clearly belongs in OSM.  When it's replaced, an on
the ground mapper can see that situation
and adjust.  No so for the chicken count, or the damage assessment data.
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Re: [Tagging] Damage Assessment Tags - Would like feedback on a schema

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Note that just because you can collect some data, does not make it a good
idea to put in OSM.  Maintenance is harder than collection: and who's going
to go back three years after the HOT event and clean up?

-
Keep in mind this tagging mailing list is a tiny and non-representative
slice of OSM mappers.


-
If the only bridge for 50km is out, then what you really need involves
using tags that are recognized by rendering and routing software.  Now you
don't need cooperation from nearly as many routing or rendering teams to
have useful impact. For example:


barrier=damage
access=no
damage:event=2016_roswell_invasion

lastcheck=2016-01-01

lastcheck:note=The entire bridge is glowing green, should not be used.

lastcheck:status=broken



The good thing here is that naive routing software would skip the route,
but smart software could count damage as a warning.  For example a trip
planner might return:

Route 1: 500km via Highway 12
Route 2: 100km via Highway 3  (*Warning* uses 3 road segments marked as
damaged as recently as 2016-01-01).



-
There's also a line between damaged and disused.  For example:


disused:highway=tertiary

disused:bridge=yes

damage:event=2016_roswell_invasion

lastcheck=2016-01-02

lastcheck:note=The entire bridge was lifted into space by aliens.  Use dirt
road instead.

lastcheck:status=broken

Which hides the feature from nearly all automated processing, without
actually removing it from the database.
Quite often a damaged feature will turn into a ruin or a disused feature.
At some point it's appropriate to remove it from
the map, which the disused namespace effectively does.


-
There's a lot of similarity between this damage set of tagging, and
tagging for last field checked.  The field check data has been used for water
fountains, toilets and AEDs.  As with damage, multiple people have
approached the last checked concept over the years, but no tagging method
has really stuck.

The damage concept may get more traction if it applies not just to a *HOT*
worldview, but also to anything a field mapper might find
broken or in need or repair in the world.
See also: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:check_date
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Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 5:28 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
wrote:

  I invite each user to join our Meetup Group and invite them to contact me
 if they have any questions. The response rate is low. A survey could help
 us identify why they joined, how they want to use OSM and what special
 interests they have any their desired way of contributing.


Based on my experience running other sites, a huge fraction of the new
users are bots.
Yes, bots that respond to email.
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Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

 Am 18.05.2015 um 19:26 schrieb Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com:

 *Note 1:*
 I'd rather duck tag this as an *amenity=pet_relief_area /
 dog_facilities=yes / cat_facilities=no*, but I have long since come to
 the conclusion that tagging for the current rendering is necessary.

 around here there is leisure=dog_park in use:
 eg
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/131188810#map=19/41.86548/12.50411layers=D
 \


A dog park is a place to play with a pet, probably off leash.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Ddog_park
A pet relief area is a toilet.
Different feature.
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Re: [Tagging] Long Tail ( was Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
wrote:

  In the last week,11-May to 17-May, OSM increased the number of users [1]
 by 10,700. Think of the results if each of those new users were to add just
 one edit a week. You might ask, so what is keeping people from editing? We
 could speculate, but without asking I don't think we will ever know. So why
 not ask? The problems is right now we have no easy way to contact new users
 to ask them. We have a mindset that OSM should not spam the users. I
 think it is time to change that mindset. I propose that we allow for
 limited contact with new users. Offer an optional new users survey when
 they join, and send followups at 1 week and 1 month to remind them to make
 a contribution. Of course we should offer an opt out after the first email.


Let's use human power, not spam power.

How about if first edits caused some sort of flag that experienced users
see, and can welcome and thank the new user
for registering and contributing.  This is possible now, but not really
part of the standard tool set and definitely not part of the culture.

---

Beyond that: OSM has huge growth areas in issue mapping.  The most recent
that came up is pet rest areas.  There must be people
with dogs that need these on a regular basis, who could start mapping those
features, and maybe move on to classic OSM editing.
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Re: [Tagging] Water featuers

[Bryce Nesbitt]

A lot of those end up as natural=water.  I suppose man_made=yes could be
added.
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[Tagging] Pet Relief Areas

[Bryce Nesbitt]

How might we tag Pet Relief Areas
http://opendoorsnfp.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/ReliefGuideRev.pdf

This is not:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:vending%3Dexcrement_bags
or
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Ddog_bin
or
dog_waste_bin or a variety of other tags, though it probably incorporates
one.
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Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas

[Bryce Nesbitt]

The stations I'm talking about are often indoors.
See the linked PDF in the original message.
For example they may be in an international transit zone in an airport
where neither the passenger nor the animal may leave
to access the outside.

These definitely do not double as cricket pitches.
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Re: [Tagging] On appointment restaurant

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 2:17 PM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com
wrote:

 And you make me discover a very fundamental rule I didn't notice after 36
 readings: that the tokens can be literal strings. And I wonder how software
 supposed to tell whether it's open can understand strings.


Software can't.

The dirty little secret of OSM tagging is that a huge fraction of the tags
have insufficient semantic clarity or consistency to be
processed or rendered.

If it's unclear on the wiki, and not simple enough that people get it right
80% of the time, it won't ever be machine processed.
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Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas

[Bryce Nesbitt]

These stations are in facilities such as airports,
and they are open to whatever animal needs them:
pets, service dogs, and unruly children as appropriate.
Many of them are indoors.

Since they are likely to include access to dog waste bags, they could be a
subtag under vending.  Ugh.
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Re: [Tagging] General tagging system problems (was: shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 I'm not convinced that such a generic approach will help to get
 unambiguous tagging, e.g.
 children + education + building (= school building)  - architectural
 school? language school? ...
 vehicle + education (= driving school) - self learning autonomous
 vehicles? school bus? a bus that offers educational services? ...
 area + tree (= forest/wood) - a big tree? an area foreseen for trees? an
 orchard? ...
 building + sleep (= hotel/hostel/...) - a motel? a dormitory? a matress
 factory? ...


+1 well illustrated

The hierarchy approach sidesteps some of that

building
what type of building?
school
what type of school?
elementary?
what type of elementary school?
Montessori
what type of Montessori elementary school?
eastern chapter



service
what type of service?
vehicle services
what type of vehicle service?
education
what type of vehicle service education?
driving school




But I think it better to go the other way.  Start with the duck:

driving_school


Then have a registry somewhere that puts that into context:

driving school  =  place where a member of the public can sign up to learn
vehicle operation

types of driving school:

* private vehicle

* taxi/commercial/paying passenger

* heavy goods vehicle

* specialty vehicle

* forklift/equipment

   driving school  + private_vehicle + fee =   things open to the
general public, services, things you book in advance
   driving school  +  heavy goods vehicle+ fee =   services,
specialty services

Which other than the categories, pretty much is the wiki of today.
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Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 12:56 AM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote:
 not by name, explicitely, but that's how we've been using it since the very
 beginning. It will be really hard to change that. We also have maxheight and
 maxwidth, I think it's obvious those are hard limits, not advisory.

That's fuzzy also.

A signed height limit is likely somewhat conservative.  On a USA road
way that's an advisory sign, but if you
run a larger load under the bridge and something happens it's your fault.

The actual maximum height is likely larger.  There are heavy goods
databases with precise measurements
taken by laser scanners on the roadway. Thus:

maxheight:signed
maxheight:regulatory
maxhieght:measured


And then for the boating community we have the concept of clearance
relative to the tide level.
Marinas for example will often list depth at low tide (or mean lower
low water).  Height/depth may be pegged to mean sea level
with the mariner left to work out the current day's tides.

maxheight:signed = 5 meters above mean sea level = 5 mamsl = 5 meters amsl
maxheight:measured = 7 meters mamsl

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Re: [Tagging] man_made=apiary or ?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Anders Anker-Rasch and...@anker-rasch.no
wrote:

 In terms of strategy for *OpenStreetMap*: given the strength of
 http://apiarymap.com/ , perhaps it's better to see a partner rather than
 a parallel effort.  Reach out to those folks and see if they'd be willing
 to switch base maps, and harmonize data for display.

  I've looked into apiarymap previously, and I can understand where you are
 coming from. To some extent, I agree with the idea of not starting
 parallell efforts. However, I find the apiarymap (and others I've seen
 based on Googles API) very limiting. I got loads of ideas I would like to
 implement into a map, without revealing too much here.


The google maps efforts are limited: true. But that's exactly where OSM can
offer a compelling and open alternative.

This is a potential growth area for OSM: to put together some tools that
make merging a specialist dataset with the OSM base
really slick.

The social question of what's best to use is complex.
It's possible that mapping in OSM would divide the bee keeping community
and damage both efforts.
Or, it's possible that with competition each side would strive to outdo
the other.
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Re: [Tagging] General tagging system problems

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote:


  That said the google approach would be to infer everything from text,
 social and web linking analysis:
 name=Fred's Bakery
 website=http://freds.example.org/ [1]


 As we already have these informations, we could just ignore the rest and
 make a big software effort to recognize the meaning. But that would be hard
 problem, involving parsing the websites.


I help run (through keepright) a job that loads those websites.  It's goal
is to determine if the website still matches the node.
The problem is not a Google scale problem: it's far smaller.
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Re: [Tagging] surface=brick - surface=bricks?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Given that humans do the mapping, stamping out either the plural or
singular form will prove not worth it.
Parsers that want to be complete will need to accept both.



*Be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others.*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle
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Re: [Tagging] man_made=apiary or ?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 5:11 PM, SomeoneElse li...@atownsend.org.uk wrote:

 However, even when hives are moved around for pollination don't they still
 have a nominal home?


No.  Maybe a winter home, or a regular rotation.
It's more like a food truck: there may be a regular rotation.


In terms of strategy for *OpenStreetMap*: given the strength of
http://apiarymap.com/ ,
perhaps it's better to see a partner rather than a parallel effort.  Reach
out to those folks
and see if they'd be willing to switch base maps, and harmonize data for
display.
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Re: [Tagging] General tagging system problems (was: shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Something that gets proposed from time to time is a tree hierarchy:
shop=food:bakery:muffins+sweets:cookie


That said the google approach would be to infer everything from text,
social and web linking analysis:
name=Fred's Bakery
website=http://freds.example.org/
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Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 11:31 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com
wrote:


 Also, it would break all current data consumers.




I think the concern about data consumers in general is far higher on this
tagging list, then among actual data consumers.

For example:  Any decent data consumer needs to process *both*:



*phone=XXX +*

*contact:phone=XXX*
Else they're missing 100,000 data points.   So even if *phone* was
mechanically retagged to* contact:phone* (or the other way around) data
consumers would* not even notice.*

It's the 18 pages of tag soup from
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/search?q=phone that hides phone numbers
from data consumers, not a potential well discussed and documented
improvement to the tagging architecture.

In fact worst case is not all that bad with a mechanical retag process:
if a data consumer breaks, it's because they're years out of date on
following evolving tag preference.



The access tags, and contact tags are both large tag spaces created before
namespaces.
If invented today, they'd problably use namespaces.
There are strong advantages for data processing, to have them groupable.
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Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 12:32 AM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com
wrote:

 For phone data it may be true, but for access tags (note the thread
 title) it is certainly not true - it is unlikely that anybody supports
 for example access:foot.


I think the point is that transition of tagging practice, even if it takes
a few years, is possible.

foot=yes is widely processed as an access tag, for sure.
dog=, stroller= and fishing_boat= however are far less likely to be
recognized as access tags even if used correctly.
If access: started off with the odd cases, it could build momentum, to
the point where the transition could
be seamless.

Contact and access are huge tag spaces that contain members that are
semantically fuzzy.  Data consumers
tend to ignore tags with too much uncertainty.
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Re: [Tagging] Roads with motor vehicle access limited to residents of a specific town

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com
wrote:

 for a trail that anyone can use, but only after buying a permit.

 I would use rather fee=yes and toll=yes rather than introducing yet
 another tag value.

That would confuse the heck out of me.  From that tagging I'd think you're
talking about staffed toll both or coin box.

I'd rather do:

access=see_website
operator=East Bay Municipal Utility District
website=
https://www.ebmud.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/Application%20for%20Trail%20Permit.pdf
note=Annual trail use permit must be obtained in advance.



I'd rather have a lot of tags with clear meanings, compared to just a few
tags that are semantically murky!
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Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 1:42 AM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote:
 It's really difficult to have it understood that GPS software blindly obeys 
 rules and that tags must also strictly obey the same rules for the GPSes to 
 work.  The many many routing tags errors are a real PITA.  Even wrong 
 instructions in the documentation causing contributors to be misinformed.  Is 
 OSM suitable for GPS 


That remains to be seen.

But it's an advantage for the more verbose tags.  hgv=designated is
not all that clear to a starting mapper.  access:hgv=designated at
least gives a hint to those who read English.

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Re: [Tagging] Roads with motor vehicle access limited to residents of a specific town

[Bryce Nesbitt]

At some point you throw up your hands and ask what does it say on the sign?

access:motorcar=see_note
barrier=sign
sign:text=Requires campus NL permit with toll tag transponder.
Delivery excepted.

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Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 12:52 AM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote


 That would be confusing IMHO. Either you have to bite the sour apple and
 go (at least propose) for a complete move of access tags to their own name
 space or just leave everything as it is now.


The transition to a namespace is already underway
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/access%3Ahorse
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/access%3Abus


The question then becomes: is there energy to hurry that process along, try
and stop that process, or clean up the ones that don't fit like:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/access%3Aroof
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/keys/access%3Acustomer
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Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 2:04 AM, James Mast rickmastfa...@hotmail.com wrote:
 However, I wouldn't be opposed if we wanted to tag them as 'maxspeed:ramp=35
 mph', but only if we could get the routers on board as that does help in the
 time estimates and also to harp a user if he's going, say, 20 mph over the
 'ramp' speed.

It's broader than ramp.
It's any yellow advisory speed limit, that should have a new tag.

USA: white=regulatory
yellow=advisory

There are many examples of each, not just speed limits.
All signs in the USA must conform to the http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/

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Re: [Tagging] surface=brick - surface=bricks?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Neither is documented at wiki but meaning seems clear and synonymous.

 surface=bricks is used 1997 times, surface=brick 541 times.

 surface=bricks is also consistent with plural form of popular
 countable surface values - surface=paving_stones and
 surface=concrete:plates

 Is there any good reason to avoid changing existing surface=brick to
 surface=bricks?


In American English the term brick wall sounds fine.  Bricks wall is
odd.
If you asked what's the bike shed made of? either bricks or brick
would be fine answers.


I think that data consumers should accept both, and thus it does not matter
how people tag it.
Describe both on the wiki as redirects to the same place.
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Re: [Tagging] Roads with motor vehicle access limited to residents of a specific town

[Bryce Nesbitt]

In the USA one occasionally sees local traffic only signed.
It's meant to counter cut-through traffic by commuters and delivery trucks.



One city installed physical barriers to such use:
http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/ContentDisplay.aspx?id=8238#Diverters
http://quirkyberkeley.com/fire-hydrants-and-traffic-barriers/
Deliberately breaking up the street grid to force through traffic onto
main streets.

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Re: [Tagging] Roads with motor vehicle access limited to residents of a specific town

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I'd say the simple answer is access=private.
Anyone who has access knows they have access, and don't need OSM to tell
them.


That said I did just map access=permit_required + bicycle=no for a trail
that anyone can use, but only after buying a permit.


On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 6:33 AM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote:

 We do have here roads where access with motor vehicles is limited to
 residents plus residents of the town, where the road is.
 Example: http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/H5QZAcvCLQBwhbF4u2mq7w (zoom in
 to read the details)

 How do I tag such situation?


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Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 1:30 AM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:

 Do you plan to use the same prefix for vehicle, foot, ... ?
 Or just for the categories that you listed ?


The thought here is to group all access tags, current and those invented in
the future.
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Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 11:31 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com
wrote:


 IMHO it would make editing and using data harder. It sounds like
 something that should be improved by a better interface for editors
 (grouping similar tags together).


Exactly the problem. How can a computer tell that dog hgv and mofa
should all be grouped?

With a prefix, a consumer like a smartphone app can group all the
restrictions,.

Right now building automated tools against the data is fragile.  For
example the access for boats is spread across quite
a number of tags.  Even determining if a facility is applicable to a boat
would require the consumer to keep up with
all the various boat tags.  Having a class hierarchy would enable generic
actions for watercraft, even if the data consumer
did not understand all the options (e.g. generic watercraft which might
be a fishing boat, wave runner, rowboat).



I suppose there is one more option: a comprehensive list of which otherwise
random tags ( dog hgv and mofa) have access semantics.
One could similarly group contacts (e.g. phone website www are all
part of group contacts).
And some list somewhere could define the twelve boat tags as having
semantic meaning access plus semantic meaning waterway.
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[Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

There was discussion about the contact: prefix... now how about the
access tags?

There are a lot of them, and trying to gather and present them is very hard:

hov
boat
motorboat
canoe
bulk
tanker
mofa
moped
dog
hazmat
bicycle
imdg
ice_skates
...
...
...


These could be mechanically retagged into a namespace:

access:hov=yes
access:boat=yes
access:motorboat=yes
access:canoe=yes
access:bulk=yes
access:tanker=yes
access:mofa=no
access:moped=yes
access:dog=yes
access:hazmat=destination
access:bicycle=customers
access:imdg=yes
access:ice_skates=designated


Or perhaps semicolons:

access:designated=bicycle

access:no=dog;mofa;moped;canoe;ice_skates



And perhaps a small set of superclasses could emerge,
for use in rendering:

foot
watercraft
human_powered_vehicle
motor_vehicle
motor_cycle
heavy_motor_vehicle

mobility_aid (e.g. wheelchair)

animal

With the present rich set of tags showing up at level three or more:

access:animal=yes
access:animal:cat=no
access:animal:dog=designated

Thoughts?
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