Re: [Tagging] Masts vs Towers yet again

[John Eldredge]

The 808-foot antenna for radio station WSM fits both the tower and mast 
descriptions we are using.



--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On April 16, 2016 2:05:10 AM Marc Zoutendijk  wrote:

Op 16 apr. 2016, om 08:27 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer 
 het volgende geschreven:


but in these cases there would typically be a room in the tower, i.e. the 
pole is there to support something on top, or is big and hollow and 
accessible in the inside.


this is not a tower: 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Borough_Hill_mast.jpg 



this is not a mast:
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torre_della_televisione_di_Stoccarda#/media/File:Stuttgarter_Fernsehturm6.jpg 



I agree with this vision, but in the last case, which we also see very 
often in my country (The Netherlands), one still could say that we see a 
mast on top of a tower, like this one:


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Gerbrandy_tower.jpg 



Which creates even more confusion.

A tower is built on the spot where you see it. But a mast is very often 
constructed elsewhere and simply erected on the spot where you see it, 
although I’m not sure if we can use this in our decision on how to tag.


Marc.






--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Wharf

[John Eldredge]

"Mole" is also used in English, with that same meaning.

--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On February 16, 2016 8:48:53 AM Volker Schmidt  wrote:


Wharf (US English) and Quay (British English) seem to be equivalent and
describe a fixed structure that has land on one side and water on the
other, but the French môle or brise-lames is different: it is a structure
that protrudes into the water, but is normally narrow and often there is
not even a walkway on it. It's also uses in German: Mole

On 16 February 2016 at 15:26, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:


TL;DR: man_made=quay unless objections are raised.



So I have a few nice harbour wharves to map...

I found landuse=wharf but it is only used 37 times:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/landuse=wharf

man_made=pier is almost certainly not the solution, as
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dpier is explicit about
its use "for a raised walkway over water supported by pillars" - which a
wharf isn't: a wharf is solid masonry.

Ooops... I just found my solution while looking up details to document my
question - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wharf says "the term *quay* is
common in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and many other
Commonwealth countries, and the Republic of Ireland, whereas the term
*wharf* is more common in the United States". And indeed, looking up
"Quay" on Wikipedia redirects there - and the French language synonym for
wharf is "Quai" (though strangely it doesn't mention the French term "môle"
- which is a much better translation for "wharf"... I may have to put that
on my French Wikipedia TODO).

So, anyway, unless objections are raised, I'll be tagging wharves as
man_made=quay areas and I'll update 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dquay

which is obviously incomplete (Now who is the numbskull who wrote this
page ? Ooops - it is me).

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging






--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[John Eldredge]

In the US, gallery can refer to a museum, but it more commonly refers to a 
retail store selling art.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On January 25, 2016 5:10:55 PM Frederik Ramm  wrote:


Hi,

   the German word "Galerie" is often used for art showrooms where you
can actually buy the stuff on display. (I know a couple that are not
larger than a typical hairdresser's.) Hence I wouldn't be surprised if
many of the 415 tourism=gallery features in Germany were such
establishments. They're certainly not museums.


I had a look at some
famous galleries: the MoMA in New York, the Uffizi in Florence, the
National Gallery of Art in Washington DC, the Van Gogh Museum in
Amsterdam, the Musée d'Orsay in Paris, and the Guggenheim Museum in
Bilbao. It turned out that all of them are tagged as tourism=museum.


I'd probably have hesitated to tag them as "galleries", fearing I'd be
responsible for OSM-reliant tourists requesting to know the sales price
of an item in the MoMA ;)

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[John Eldredge]

There is a large art museum in Washington, DC, named the National Gallery.

--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On January 26, 2016 4:29:17 AM Gerd Petermann 
 wrote:



althio wrote

It brings too much confusion, I take it for a bad case of duck tagging.

I would like :
- discourage tourism=gallery
- subtype of tourism=museum, museum=art just like
museum=railway/history, and further art=painting/...
- also redirect towards shop=art for badly tagged items


+ 1
I've never mapped one, but I was very surprised to see
that tourism=gallery exists.

Gerd




--
View this message in context: 
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Art-galleries-museums-tp5865765p5865812.html

Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Sidewalk Tagging for Routing

[John Eldredge]

Nashville, TN has a population of over 600,000 people, but, outside the 
central core of the city, less than half the streets have sidewalks. The 
primary reason for this is that most of the city's growth has been in the 
last 50 years, and the planners assumed that everyone would be traveling by 
car, not by public transportation or on foot.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On November 24, 2015 9:57:42 AM Clifford Snow  wrote:


On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 5:24 AM, John Willis  wrote:


Jaywalking will get you a bored policeman giving you a ticket in Tokyo.

They pride themselves in people who follow the rules and wait for
crosswalks and such.



Seattle is one of the few cities in the US that actively hands out
jaywalking tickets. We warn all newcomers not to jaywalk. Moving from
Chicago ment having to force myself not to jaywalk. In Chicago, even if
there was a cop directing traffic everyone crossed when and where they
wanted. Traffic be dammed.



However the sidewalk "grid" disappears very quickly (most unclassified and
residential streets have no sidewalks), but there are "green" zones on the
sides of some narrow roads (like narrow residential roads and back alleys
of Tokyo) where the shoulder of the road is expected to be used for
pedestrian access (not a full sidewalk).

This makes mapping the sidewalks quite easy in Japan - they disappear
quite quickly once you leave secondary roads. For Places where they they go
on and on and on - like huge planned housing communities in California -
it's a good question!



The city in question is Seattle. Most of Seattle's residential streets have
sidewalks as do most large cities in the US.





--
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Named junctions

[John Eldredge]

The name in this case is for the signal, not the junction. Could you have a 
named signal at a named junction, with different names?


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On November 6, 2015 2:58:02 AM Andrew Errington  wrote:


We already use junction=yes for named junctions.  Why is another tag needed?

On 06/11/2015, Gerd Petermann  wrote:

wow, so the problem is much bigger than I expected.

I still think that my suggestion might help to solve the problem.

My understanding so far:

- In Japan (and maybe other countries),

you would prefer to render only those traffic_signals which have a name

- Complex junctions often require several nodes with
highway=traffic_signals,

at least for the routing.


My suggestion place=junction  could be used for all junctions,

maybe in combination with traffic_signals=yes/no to help the renderer.

A special Japanese style would simply ignore unnamed traffic_signals.


 Gerd




Von: John Willis 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 5. November 2015 23:47
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Named junctions





Javbw
On Nov 6, 2015, at 1:09 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar
> wrote:


I'd suggest to use a node tagged

place=junction

with name=* or ref=*

for this. What do you think?

From what I remember - in Korea they name junctions, and in Japan they
actually name the signals themselves.
I know that sounds like the same thing, but people to speak and refer to the
Signal at the junction, and the name is on the signal, and the iconography
used is the signal icon. As there are almost no street names in Japan on
tertiary roads and below, spatial navigation is done through counting
*unnamed* signals and occasionally using named signals.

The big problem traffic_signals_area
was trying to solve is the over-rendering of signal icons.

Billboards, pamphlets, and now websites use static images of maps with
access directions and simplified maps that show how many signals you have to
drive through before turning and reaching a destination from a known
landmark (highway exit, train station).

Here is the access map for a very large park.

http://hitachikaihin.jp/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/996e3788561dbe76ffe45257c28c7c25.png

Note the line of signals in a row. Those are there to be counted.

Because of Japan's very old and extremely convoluted road network, it is
usually not obvious where to turn - so people not using GPS directions
(actually using a *map*) Rely **very heavily** on accurate and consistent
placement of street light icons. And OSM is totally broken in this regard.
Every node gets an icon. Depending on the zoom level, there is 0-1-2-3-4 or
more icons when just **one** should be rendered. The signal icon is more
important that almost all place names.

This is something all the Japanese paper maps and online maps follow, and
Apple/Google also had to add all the icons properly to be useful *as a map*
in Japan.

Google Maps of the signals in a row. Note 1 named signal has a name box that
doesn't cover the road.

https://goo.gl/maps/E1hEzfi3iYF2

OSM has no rendered icons.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/36.3967/140.5927
It has a label for the lights rendered, but no icons.

Next zoom level - label disappears. So no signals, no labels. Ugh.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/36.4009/140.5901

Now icons - but two of them, with label.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.40107/140.58986

Next, 4 icons - no label
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/36.40160/140.58949

Finally, at z19, I get 4 icons and a label together.

What a horrible job of rendering a single icon with a single label!

This is an unacceptable situation  for the Map in Japan. It
fundamentally breaks using the map for road navigation for many many map
users. and since every other map is better at this fundamental necessity of
Japanese maps, it basically makes OSM an unusable choice in Japan (for
spatial map usage while driving) and seem unfinished.

Traffic_signals_area was an attempt to solve this, but as this isn't an
issue in Europe, it was ignored.

Javbw.




Labeling the signal area is just icing on the cake of removing all the
unneeded icons cluttering the map.



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to tag a "overhead electronic display" ?

[John Eldredge]

That sounds reasonable.

--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On October 29, 2015 4:03:49 AM Paul Johnson  wrote:


On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 3:57 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer :


I think we'd have to invent a tag.  I only know them to be called a
"programmable changeable message sign", so I'd probably tag it
traffic_sign=pcms




please, let's continue to avoid abbreviations. "pcms" is cryptic to me and
likely to many others too.
Wikipedia has an article about them called "variable-message sign" (IMHO
sounds slightly nicer, leads to a shorter value and includes
"non-programmable" signs: traffic_sign=variable-message_sign, even if the
hyphen-underscore mix might lead to minor tagging inconsistencies).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-message_sign
The article also states that a common name in the UK is "matrix_sign" (is
ok as well, focusing more on the physical aspect than on the function).



 How about traffic_sign=variable?



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to tag a "overhead electronic display" ?

[John Eldredge]

We have generally avoided the use of acronyms in tagging. Most people, 
including me, wouldn't recognize the meaning of sign=pcms upon seeing it.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On October 29, 2015 3:49:25 AM Paul Johnson  wrote:


I think we'd have to invent a tag.  I only know them to be called a
"programmable changeable message sign", so I'd probably tag it
traffic_sign=pcms

On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 3:32 AM, Gerd Petermann <
gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:


Please see

http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/31846954

OpenStreetMap
Weitere Informationen... 


Any ideas (which do not invent a new highway tag)?


Gerd

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging






--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] More human readable values for traffic signs

[John Eldredge]

I think he is referring to the "do not enter" sign, a red circle with a 
horizontal white bar.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On October 27, 2015 9:13:40 PM Colin Smale  wrote:

Only the rectangular blue sign means one way traffic... The round blue one 
tells you which way to drive at a junction which is subtly different. What 
is the round red one you have in mind?

--colin

On 28 October 2015 00:30:58 CET, Jo  wrote:

Also keep in mind there are 2 'oneway' signs. A blue one that can be
round
or rectangular and a round red one.

2015-10-27 23:05 GMT+01:00 Michael Reichert :


Hi Mateusz,

Am Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:58:08 +0100 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:
> I recently started tagging traffic signs and I am surprised by wide
> usage country-specific traffic sign codes.
>
> I think that at least common signs may be tagged by human-readable
> values. Some (see
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_sign#Human-
readable_values
> ) are already used
>
> I propose to add more like
> - traffic_sign=oneway
> - traffic_sign=no_stopping
> - traffic_sign=no_parking

At least the oneway sign looks different from country to country. Or

do

you expect that a French oneway sign looks like the German one? (The
German one contains the word "Einbahnstraße", the German translation

of

oneway) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_220-20.svg

And even traffic signs without text often look different because
different countries use different fonts.

That's why I suggest to use the country prefixes followed by a number

or

the name depending if the country numbers its traffic signs (like
Germany) or not (like Austria).

Best regards

Michael


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging






___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Postindustrial Castle

[John Eldredge]

And then there is Castell Gwynn, in Triune, TN, the home of the annual 
Tennessee Renaissance Festival) . It is a copy 
of a Welsh castle, but built of concrete blocks rather than stone.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On October 16, 2015 3:24:32 AM John Willis  wrote:




Javbw

On Oct 16, 2015, at 4:33 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:


I d call the hearst residence at least a villa, if castle doesn't find 
agreement.


A villa or mansion or something more than a common house - but...

It just feels weird to tag a more modern structure never used as a castle 
as a castle.


You are right - the duck test tells me it is an imposing historic building. 
And yea, it looks a bit like a castle and is named "castle" - like the 
disney castle - but it's style is to mimic a castle - it was never meant to 
really be one. It is a rich person's house.


In the Ironman films, Tony Starks malibu house is similarly large, a 
residence for a powerful person, and very imposing. If he put a couple 
turrets on the top, would it be a castle? Does the style of architecture 
define it as a castle (which is easily replicated) - or its purpose (when 
active) as a true defensive fortified local/regional/national power center?


This is a fabulous question.

Does a building that looks like a castle but has no historical usage as a 
castle - nor could ever used be a castle - be tagged as a castle?


No archer has ever been upon the battlements at Hearst castle nor 
Disneyland's castles and loose an arrow at an enemy - nor discuss african 
swallows and their airspeed velocity vis a vis coconuts.


To me, it is a historic mansion (villa?) called "Hearst Castle".

But this "style" vs purpose (active or historical) is a very interesting 
question to me.


Javbw.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Shop values review

[John Eldredge]

Well, perhaps I misunderstood the proposal. It sounded to me like the 
proposal was that a store aimed at selling building materials to 
professional builders, but not the general public, would simply be tagged 
shop=trade, with no further qualifiers to specify what trade was intended.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On October 18, 2015 5:55:23 AM ael <law_ence@ntlworld.com> wrote:


On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 07:28:39PM -0500, John Eldredge wrote:

I find shop=trade too generic to be useful, as there are many different
trades besides the building-construction trades.


Where does that constraint come from? You can have the subtag trade take
pretty well any relevant value. Building_materials just happened to be
the original motivation.

As for "white-collar" and such, that seems to be some sort of local
class distinction. There is absolutely no such intention in the original
proposal. Rather "trade" suggests "professional", and as such perhaps to
be admired and emulated.

But really it was invented as a way to tag clear groups of places that
had no obvious existing tags, and using the subtag had the great
advantage that applications did not have to know all the possible
values of "trade". Applications can just include them in, say, a group
of shop POIs in the vicinity. The user can then inspect and decide which are of
interest.

Having a plethora of slightly different main tags seems an inferior
approach. But again, the subtag trade again has the vast advantage
that it is completely compatible with as many main tags as needed.
Some values of trade might become redundant if a new main tag is
invented, but that is ok.

What am I missing?

ael





___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] post_box:type values, meter in particular

[John Eldredge]

U.S. Post Offices used to have separate collection slots for stamped mail 
and metered mail (postage printed on it by a machine), but it is several 
years since I last remember seeing such. The only American usage for the 
term "franked mail" that I am aware of is that members of the United States 
Senate can send mail without having to pay postage. They just have to have 
a notice, in the same location where postage would otherwise go, that the 
mail was sent by Senator X on official business.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On October 16, 2015 2:25:32 AM Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:





sent from a phone


Am 16.10.2015 um 03:16 schrieb Craig Wallace :

Sometimes known as a "business mail post box".



my suggestion would be to not use amenity=post_box but rather a different 
main tag on these like amenity=business_post_box or business_mail_post_box
It avoids misinterpretation and also make the type tag more consistent 
(shape only) rather than mixing different aspects/properties  into the same 
tag (even if currently in your context a particular shape refers to a 
particular kind of service, this does not have to be like this forever and 
everywhere)


cheers
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Postindustrial Castle

[John Eldredge]

Some castles that started off as strictly defensible structures had 
nondefensible additions later, in peaceable times.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On October 16, 2015 5:13:48 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


On 16/10/2015 7:49 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


2015-10-16 10:02 GMT+02:00 John Willis >:

It just feels weird to tag a more modern structure never used as a
castle as a castle.

You are right - the duck test tells me it is an imposing historic
building. And yea, it looks a bit like a castle and is named
"castle" - like the disney castle - but it's style is to mimic a
castle - it was never meant to really be one. It is a rich
person's house.



You are reading "castle" as a defensive structure, aren't structures
like these castles as well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_Versailles (ok, that's a
palace in English, but a château in French and a Schloss in German)
and according to the historic=castle page in the wiki, these should be
tagged with castle_type=palace (or manor or stately when smaller / for
lesser nobles)


The OSM wiki page historic=castle has not been 'approved'. I regard it
as wrong ... in particular with regard to Palaces, Manors .. those are
buildings ..
Palace is mentioned in the original proposal page for building...

The dividing line between a castle and a building ..
like the difference between a memorial and a monument .. all relative.

A structure that has an outer defensive wall with an inner building that
also has defensive capabilities is a castle.

A building without defensive capabilities is not a castle.

To me Schloss Ludwigslust
, Germany is not a
castle. It is a building.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwigslust_Palace




And btw., you have not yet answered the question regarding the
Neuschwanstein case. I could name a similar example (besides the other
Ludwig II castles in Bavaria), much smaller, here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtenstein_Castle_%28W%C3%BCrttemberg%29

Appears to be a castle.

Or also this one, residence of the emperor of Germany (prussian
enclave), but not actually a defensive structure (but "fake
defensive"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohenzollern_Castle


Appears to be a castle. OSM maps 'what is on the ground.. so castle?


Do you agree these are castles? This is the wiki list about castles:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:castle_type

These 19th century castles are all (or mostly) considered castles by
the Germans (actually they are either "Burg", or "Schloss",
Lichtenstein and Hohenzollern both are "Burg", the same word as for
the medieval defensive castles), but they are clearly very different
from medieval castles and never have worked as defensive structures
(neither have they been intended to be such). Here's a very small
example of an actual medieval castle:
http://www.hohen-hundersingen.de/
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burg_Hohenhundersingen


Yep all castles. Ruins.. but were castles.


 I brought this significance thing up, because that seems to be the
distinctive criterion for the three castle types "palace", "manor" and
"stately".


To me, "palace", "manor" and "stately" are buildings.. not castles.



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Shop values review

[John Eldredge]

I find shop=trade too generic to be useful, as there are many different 
trades besides the building-construction trades.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On October 7, 2015 2:40:36 PM Friedrich Volkmann  wrote:


On 07.10.2015 20:26, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

On 7 October 2015 at 15:58, Daniel Koć  wrote:

builder


Not sure what this is used for.


I have mapped some craft=builder. Small offices, maybe with some storage for
tools and construction materials. shop=* seems wrong.


building_materials


Possibly duplicate with shop=doityourself, not sure though.


shop=trade


craft


I use this for shops selling coloured paper, glue, knitting supplies etc.


sounds like shop=stationery or shop=fabric


hobby


Similar to shop=craft.


Do you know what hobby this is about? Almost everything can be a hobby.


antique - no wiki, mentioned on antiques page so maybe deprecate and propose
antiques?


Yes, shop=antiques is more popular.


They obviously mean the same. Deprecating the rare one will do no harm.


car_service - maybe car_repair?


Agree.


Some companies focus on car service, but all of them can do some repair as
well, so this is certainly a candidate for a subtag of shop=car_repair. But
not service=* as suggested on the shop=car_repair page. There is something
going wrong. service=* is already a subtag of highway=service and
railway=service.


souvenir - gift?


No, for example in Amsterdam shops where tourists buy things to take
home are very distinct from shops were people go to buy a present for
a friend they are visiting.


The shop=gift tag definition explicitely covers "tourist gifts (souvenirs)".

What present do you buy for a friend? Jewelry? That's shop=jewelry.
Confectionery? That's shop=confectionery. Flowers? shop=florist.

--
Friedrich K. Volkmann   http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Unmarked opening hours

[John Eldredge]

I, too, would tend to interpret opening_hours=none as "never open". I think 
that opening_hours=unknown would be clearer.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On October 11, 2015 6:56:57 AM Holger Jeromin  wrote:


Michael Reichert  Wrote in
 message:

Hi Micha?,

Am 2015-10-10 um 21:28 schrieb Micha? Brzozowski:

In the course of surveys, I fill in opening_hours of shops and other
venues. Sometimes though, they are not marked outside. Therefore, when
looking at a feature that lacks opening_hours other mappers and I
can't tell the reason. I've been thinking of a standardized way of
marking such cases, like:
opening_hours:status=unmarked
which is to be understood that mapper didn't see opening hours
displayed outside (but other sources may be available).


I have been using opening_hours=none for this purpose.

If the community agrees on my suggestion, we have to fix all those
validators which show warnings on opening_hours=none.


I would read "none" as: always closed.
This topic is about: not easy to find on the ground.


--
Holger


Android NewsGroup Reader
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Parcel box tagging

[John Eldredge]

Is this a store or kiosk, with staff present, or are the packing materials 
sold via a vending machine?


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On October 6, 2015 11:43:37 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


On 7/10/2015 2:21 PM, Marc Gemis wrote:


On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 12:57 AM, André Pirard
> wrote:

On 2015-10-07 00:43, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote :

sent from a phone

You are excused ;-)
Am 06.10.2015 um 23:31 schrieb Daniel Koć 
:


In my opinion having popular amenity type only for one country
it's not about the country, it's about the system I guess. Some time ago I 
spotted a DHL Packstation at the main station in Rome, so they're not 
limited to Germany. I agree this definition is not nice, and using a brand 
name as amenity value is not nice.

cc: Marc Gemis has spotted in Belgium and discussed on talk-be@
similar boxes that have nothing to do with DHL, Germany or other
countries, pure Belgian (no beer, no chips inside, though).

Cheers


 The one that I saw in Belgium is a personal "mailbox" for parcels in
front of your house. Those are an alternative to your traditional
mailbox, but are big enough to accept parcels and operated by
keycode/smartphone


The ones becoming available here in Australia are for large parcels 
delivered to your home.
IIRC They have a key that can be opened by the post office people to place 
the parcel/s, and another key for yourself to retrieve the parcel.
They are purchased by the home owner so that things like ebay purchases can 
be left without having to go back to the post office to get them.




The ones that are mentioned here places where more than one person can
bring parcels to be send, not ?


They are a source of packing materials (satchels, boxes, tape) that can be 
used to enclose your parcel before it is sent.


There may be an attached mailing box suitable for the parcels, with some 
way for paying for the postage.





--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to tag cricket nets?

[John Eldredge]

I hope you mean bowling. Bowelling sounds like something you would do in a WC.

--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On September 28, 2015 6:56:20 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


These are used to warm up and practice Bowelling and batting for cricket.

Previously they were tagged leisure=pitch and sport=cricket_net ...

But someone has pointed out that this in not a sport...

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dcricket_nets

  so

sport_practice=cricket_net

A documented suggestion is to use sport=cricket, barrier=fence .. but
the argument is it is NOT A SPORT so you cannot use sport= anything! :-P
The suggestion is on
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sport

I'd think similar 'restrictions' will be imposed by the pedantic on
other pitches that are only used for practice ..for example - half sized
basketball courts - only used for practice .. not full sized due to
space restrictions. So not a sport.. just practice.

There are similar concerns for sport=exercise, sport=fitness .. these
too are not sports..

So .. what tag to use? leisure=pitch still suits.

nonsport= ? :-)



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Extremely long names for highways

[John Eldredge]

One thing that you are likely to find is that some highways will have 
multiple names in local use. For example, if a highway with an official 
name of Route X leads from town Alpha to town Bravo, people in town Alpha 
are likely to refer to it both as Route X and also as the Bravo Road. 
People in town Bravo are likely to refer to it as Route X and also as the 
Alpha Road.  The highway department, on the other hand, is likely to simply 
say Route X.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On September 27, 2015 8:04:48 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
 wrote:





sent from a phone


Am 27.09.2015 um 14:33 schrieb Peter :

we will then know that there is no real road name



you will know that there is no real road name if you go there and survey 
whether there are signs with a posted road name or not, and if not you 
could ask local people and look up official sources. This is surely not 
something you should do from remote. The best thing to do from far away 
might be getting in contact with the local mappers and point them to a 
potential problem.


Cheers
Martin


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Modelling the relation between a waterstream and one of its resurgence

[John Eldredge]

Are you referring to a stream that, at some point, goes underground, then 
re-emerges to the surface at a downstream point? These are common on karst 
terrain.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On September 9, 2015 1:56:27 AM David Marchal  wrote:


Hello, there.
I wondered: when a waterstream is known to be, instead of a real, separated 
waterstream, merely a resurgence of another one, how should the link 
between them be modelled? Which tags should I use, and in which relation? 
Should I tag the resurgence by itself?

Hoping you can help,
Regards.


--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Trolltags

[John Eldredge]

Not to mention the amount of horse dung you are willing to have your bike 
wheels fling up onto you.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On September 1, 2015 4:59:34 AM p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:


On Tue Sep 1 10:49:56 2015 GMT+0100, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:


I unsure about highway=bridleway+bicycle=designated but given that it
appears 2 129 times worldwide it is likely that is also may be
considered as mistake.

Makes sense to me, bicycles can legally use a bridleway in England/Wales. 
Practicality will depend upon surface, type of bike and recent weather.


Phil (trigpoint)
--
Sent from my Jolla
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Trolltags

[John Eldredge]

From my experience with road bikes, a certain amount of mud will get flung 
upwards by the wheels at an angle, missing the mudflaps but not the rider.  
The same would likely be true of horse droppings.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On September 4, 2015 2:48:23 PM Paul Johnson <ba...@ursamundi.org> wrote:


This is why you ride with full fenders with mudflaps and use a chaincase.

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 12:40 PM, John Eldredge <j...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:


Not to mention the amount of horse dung you are willing to have your bike
wheels fling up onto you.

--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On September 1, 2015 4:59:34 AM p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:

On Tue Sep 1 10:49:56 2015 GMT+0100, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:




I unsure about highway=bridleway+bicycle=designated but given that it
appears 2 129 times worldwide it is likely that is also may be
considered as mistake.

Makes sense to me, bicycles can legally use a bridleway in

England/Wales. Practicality will depend upon surface, type of bike and
recent weather.

Phil (trigpoint)
--
Sent from my Jolla
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging





___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging





--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Buildings mixing residential and commercial use

[John Eldredge]

This makes sense to me.  In Nashville, Tennessee, USA, where I live, it is 
becoming stylish for young professional people to live in downtown 
apartments. These buildings usually have retail, restaurants, and/or 
offices at ground level and perhaps a floor or two higher, then apartments 
(flats) on higher floors. It makes sense to tag these buildings as 
building=mixed.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On August 31, 2015 7:23:02 AM Tod Fitch  wrote:

In my area there are a number of new buildings either recently completed or 
still under construction that can only be described as a mixed use type: 
The street level is steel and concrete construction and designed 
specifically for retail. Above that are 3 to 5 wood framed floors 
specifically designed as apartments. More recent satellite imagery on a 
couple of buildings shows the upper residential floors to be typically 
built around a center courtyard with a swimming pool (having observed 
construction of the buildings, I am sure the swimming pools are above the 
level of the retail shops, not at the ground level).


Completed, the look of the buildings is pretty recognizable from the street 
with the fairly tall retail floor below and shorter floors of obvious 
residential above. I guess it could be confused with a badly designed urban 
hotel, but it sure would not be confused with an office building or 
traditional apartment building.


So building=apartments obviously is not accurate. Nor is building=retail. 
Apartments here are considered commercial so I could see a mapper using 
building=commercial even though OSM would frown on that. It makes sense to 
me to tag that building style as building=mixed.


Cheers,
Tod



On Aug 30, 2015, at 11:53 PM, Danijel Schorlemmer  wrote:

What about

building=apartments
building:use=residential;commercial (or retail)

building=mixed doesn't seem to me to be a useful building tag. The building
tag should describe the type of building, not its use.

Cheers



On Monday, August 31, 2015 10:26:27 AM Warin wrote:

On 31/08/2015 8:58 AM, John Willis wrote:

On Aug 31, 2015, at 12:05 AM, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

uilding=commercial is quite suspect.


To me, there are 2 basic types of mixed use buildings.

mixed_use_urban
And
mixed_use_house

There are so many different combinations of retail, residential, hotel,
and commercial (and in come cases, attraction) That as long as there is
some kind of residential space (apartments/condos), then it would be
mixed_use_urban. This is especially true if the public facing  part (the
bottom floor or the side towards the street) are non-residential use (a
business/shop/not parking).

snip


So i suggest those two building types to denote these two basic types of
mixed use.

I think it better to bite the bullet and start sub tagging correctly ...
thus for a retail mixed with apartments

building=mixed (or =yes etc)
building:retail=yes
building:apartment=yes

? More thoughts please...



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Shop vs amenity

[John Eldredge]

From my experience, department stores allow you to pay separately in each 
department, but don't generally require you to do so, except for items that 
are both valuable and easily concealed, such as jewelry.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On August 28, 2015 9:16:48 AM Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
wrote:





sent from a phone


Am 28.08.2015 um 15:33 schrieb Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk:

In a department store I would pay for each item individually, in the
department and hence have three transactions.



And you would have often less trouble finding someone who can give you advice.

cheers
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Shop vs amenity

[John Eldredge]

Here in Nashville, TN, USA, back when the department stores were all 
located in the central business district, they indeed tended to be 
multistory.  Starting in the 1970s, the downtown department stores either 
went out of business or migrated to the suburbs, where land was cheaper, 
and one-to-two-story department stores became the norm. In the last decade, 
downtown living started becoming stylish again, but none of the large 
stores have yet moved downtown.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On August 27, 2015 4:44:56 PM Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
wrote:





sent from a phone


Am 26.08.2015 um 02:09 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com:

The difference between a building used as a supermarket compared to a 
department store is the internal fitout, the building remains the same.



not at all, this might be the case in some areas (that I am not aware of) 
and edge cases, but the typical supermarket is 1 storey, in huge cases 2 
(and then one level is typically electronics, or gardening and other 
non-food articles and tends towards a department store by the selection of 
products) and doesn't have a representative / expensive outside facade, 
while department stores tend to have at least 3 floors, typically 4 and 
more, and do have to have a representative outside, so no, these are not 
the same kind of buildings.


Do you have any real example of a supermarket becoming a department store 
or vice versa?



cheers
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] highway=footway - Advanced definition: Distinction footway vs path

[John Eldredge]

With the added connotation that ONLY the designated transportation methods 
are allowed.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On August 27, 2015 3:36:31 PM Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote:


`highway=footway` implies an access tag `foot=designated`
`highway=path` implies an access tag `foot=yes` (but can certainly be 
overridden)


“designated” is kind of a tricky concept, but it basically means something 
like:

- there is a sign saying you can walk there
- or something like a sign (trail blaze or map at trailhead or visitor 
center etc)
- or everyone just knows you are supposed to walk there (as in a sidewalk) 
because laws


HTH,
Bryan




On Aug 27, 2015, at 4:14 PM, geow ks...@web.de wrote:

So do you have any functional suggestions or enhancements to my proposition
in the OP for a proper classification criteria between footway and path?





--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Access tags (general question, but mostly regarding bicycle)

[John Eldredge]

Saying allowed as the prefix would be less ambiguous than access, as 
many people are likely to interpret access as is access possible.  
After all, referring to a location as not wheelchair-accessible means 
that it difficult to get to via wheelchair, not that wheelchair use is 
forbidden.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On August 28, 2015 7:42:33 AM Andy Townsend ajt1...@gmail.com wrote:


On 28/08/2015 13:15, Anders Fougner wrote:


So we should consider replacing the tagging scheme with one which
isn't misunderstood so easily.
The use of access:foot=*, access:bicycle=* has been proposed at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/access_restrictions_1.5#Namespace
but just not taken into use. It looks good, though...and wouldn't be
so easily misunderstood, I believe.



Based on past experience, not going to happen, for all sorts of
reasons.  Also, I suspect that access:bicycle is just as likely to be
misunderstood as bicycle.  In addition, I suspect that most people
making these sorts of mistakes are relatively new mappers using an
editor that hides tag values from them, so it is also pointless.

Far better, when you see someone locally tagging incorrectly like that,
is to talk to them, explain the problem, and suggest which tags they
should be using.  I'm sure most cycle routers do try and take notice of
sensible tagging (though there will sometimes be problems that need to
be bounced to the router maintainers -
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/33592375 and
http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=32884 spring to mind).
The surface tag is the obvious one; specifically for bikes
*mtb:scale* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/mtb%3Ascale is
probably the most popular locally to me, but near you it might be
something else.

Cheers,

Andy (SomeoneElse)




--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Shop vs amenity

[John Eldredge]

From my experience, American English makes much the same distinctions as 
what you are describing. You sometimes see a distinction between rough 
carpenters, who install wall studs and the like, which won't end up being 
visible to the customer, and finish carpenters, who install woodwork that 
will be visible, and thus need more skill.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.






sent from a phone


Am 25.08.2015 um 10:33 schrieb Ruben Maes ruben.mae...@gmail.com:

Tuesday 25 August 2015 11:30:33, Warin:
As the post office is called an office I suppose it should go as 
office=post_office:-)

The more I think of a bank the more I think of it is an office.
Carpenter? If I want a repair done .. then it is a service? = office. If I 
want a new chair then a product? = shop. ?


Or craft=carpenter[1].



or maybe joiner / cabinet maker? There might be subtle differences here, in 
Germany the carpenter (Zimmermann) is a profession making mostly structural 
wood work (walls, roofs, stairs etc) while cabinet makers are building and 
repairing wooden furniture and joiners (Bauschreiner/Bautischler) will make 
finishings like claddings (wall/ceiling), handrails, fixed (built in) 
furniture, doors and frames (usually not the structural part). There is 
some overlap and they might do parts of the other profession/specialization 
as well, but you are usually better off with asking someone to do the stuff 
they are specialized in (because they have the right tools and workshop and 
experience). The Schreiner(de) will have much smaller tolerances and will 
usually produce finer finishings while the Zimmermann (de, en:carpenter) 
will make more rough work which will either be visible outdoors or will 
likely be clad later by someone specialized in finer works.


cheers
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Draft: recycling:capsules

[John Eldredge]

I would suggest coffee_capsules, as the first thing that comes to mind when 
I hear capsules is medication, not individual servings of coffee grounds.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On August 22, 2015 4:17:06 AM Ulrich Meier amilopow...@u-cloud.ch wrote:




Dear Mappers

I have opened a new draft proposal to tag recycling:capsules=yes/no

Here it is:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/recycling:capsules
[1]

Feel free to comment! I look forward the hear them.

Regards,
amilopowers

Links:
--
[1]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/recycling:capsules



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Describe explicitly that values of highway tag do not imply anything about road quality (except highway=motorway and highway=motorway_link)

[John Eldredge]

Some state parks in Tennessee have bridle trails that are horse-only, no 
pedestrians or wheeled vehicles allowed.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On August 20, 2015 10:59:54 AM Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:


On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 8:05 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:


Go to rich neighborhoods in San Diego.



OK, so we're seeing a trend that at least in the US, it's something that's
primarily an issue for southwestern California.



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] There are no 'non managed' woods. Was: landcover=trees definition

[John Eldredge]

Also, if a managed woodland ceases to be actively managed, so that it 
gradually reverts back to a wild state, does it eventually get 
reclassified? There are many places around the world where a former managed 
woodland, or cleared farm, has reverted back to forest.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On August 15, 2015 6:18:49 AM Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote:


On 02/08/2015 23:55, Daniel Koć wrote:

I have just discovered that while landcover=trees has no Wiki page,
it's quite established tag (I wouldn't say popular here, because
it's just about 1% of forest/wood uses) and we could officially define
as a generic tag for trees areas, when it's not clear for the mapper
if it's natural or not (forest vs wood).

Do you agree with this idea?



A system that makes the current confusing set up of natural=wood,
landuse=forest redundant then all for it. Apart from the fact very few
trees areas aren't managed in some form or another, any such distinction
should be sub tagged,  not by using separate, confusing key tags.

Cheers
Dave F.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] life ring or life preserver

[John Eldredge]

Some of the Sherlock Holmes stories make reference to a type of weapon 
called a life preserver, what an American would call a blackjack or cosh. 
Is that usage of life preserver now archaic in British speech?


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On August 9, 2015 2:05:14 AM Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote:


http://talk-gb.openstreetmap.narkive.com/hXPJNpfG/life-ring-british-english

British English: lifebelt

American English: lifebuoy

German English: lifering
__
openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] New Key capacity:*=n values

[John Eldredge]

What is the point of quoting someone else without adding any additional 
comment?


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On August 1, 2015 5:04:44 PM John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:




Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 2, 2015, at 4:25 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
wrote:


 access=no
 disabled=yes

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (nutrition_supplements)

[John Eldredge]

Did anyone else see this message as containing only headers, but no message 
contents? That is how it rendered on my system.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On August 2, 2015 6:17:21 AM Alberto Chung isc.chungvazq...@gmail.com wrote:


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Rendering for shop=boutique/fashion on default style

[John Eldredge]

While boutique is used most often to refer to small clothing stores, I 
have also seen the term used to small stores selling other types of goods. 
I think that additional tagging indicating the type of merchandise sold is 
a good idea.  It seems to be a marketing term implying small, and using 
snob appeal to justify elevated prices.



--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On July 31, 2015 5:29:27 AM Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote:


I was about to add new icon for shop=boutique and shop=fashion on our
default style, but after short discussion it seems we need some
clarification of these schemes definition:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1706

The only sure thing is shop=clothes, both boutique and fashion are not
clearly defined and have de facto status. What should we do with them?
Is there a way to clearly define such shops and - if yes - what tagging
scheme should be used and which one should be deprecated? Should they
have their own tag at all or just additional tag for shop=clothes?

--
The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags
down [A. Cohen]

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] works_as_highway=primary

[John Eldredge]

It makes sense to me to go more by physical attributes than the official 
primary/secondary/tertiary rating. Among other reasons, medium-term 
conditions such as construction projects may mean that the quickest route 
from point A to point B involves the use of a lower-rated roadway to bypass 
a choke point.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On July 29, 2015 8:24:23 AM Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:

A better router might weight physical attributes such as lanes, surface and 
effective speed more prominently than heuristics based on logical stuff 
like administrative classifications and legal maximum speeds. Artificially 
manipulating the tagging to influence the results of routing algorithms is 
not the way to go - there is name for that... If the government say its 
primary, then it's primary, unless you want to replace that with subjective 
assessments.


On 29 July 2015 15:08:33 CEST, Andrew Guertin andrew.guer...@uvm.edu wrote:
On 07/29/2015 07:11 AM, moltonel 3x Combo wrote:
 Routers can already use 'prefer primary to secondary' worldwide.
 Nowhere in the OSM world is secondary defined as better than primary.
 In any given area. a car router can confidently prefer 'primary'.

Based on what John Willis has said about tagging in Japan, I don't
think
this is true.

 From what I understand from his previous posts to this and other OSM
mailing lists, the OSM tagging in Japan follows the official
classification, and often results in small windy roads through cities
that are historically important being marked as primary, while modern
bypass roads are marked as secondary or even lower.

I think that this breaks a router's idea that primary is better than
secondary, and I think that this problem is exactly why people advocate

for not following official classification.

--Andrew

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] access=designated wiki

[John Eldredge]

That makes sense to me.

--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On July 24, 2015 8:11:12 AM Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:


I wonder what

highway=primary; access=designated means. I think JOSM even complains about
this.

Don't you need a type of road that already restricts the access to 1 type
of vehicles for that, such as highway=bicycle ? (although in many countries
that one implies foot=yes, so it isn't well defined in here neither.)

Can't we just get rid of access=designated and only allow designated with a
specific vehicle type, such as bicycle=designated or foot=designated ?


regards

m

On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Hubert sg.fo...@gmx.de wrote:

  Hallo,

 during a discussion within the german forum [1], I have been pointed to
 the description box of the “access=designated” wikipage [2].

 It reads “A way marked for a particular use.”.

 I would like to change it to “A way designated for a particular use” or “A
 way intended for a particular use.”. Probably the latter one.

 The reason is, that the word “marked” implies that a way is ,well, marked
 with a traffic sign or by road paintings, which is not necessarily true.

 Also the topic ”general use case” is not that strictly formulated as the “
 description” box and allows the use of “designated” in a much wider range
 of cases.

 Are there any objections against me change that word?

 Yours

 Hubert

 [1] *http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=31980*
 http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=31980

 [2] *http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access=designated*
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access=designated


 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging





--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to recognize memorial from monument?

[John Eldredge]

I would classify it as a monument, given its size. However, its official 
name is the Albert Memorial. It honors Prince Albert, Queen Victoria's consort.

-
--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On July 21, 2015 2:14:43 AM Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:




sent from a phone

 Am 20.07.2015 um 23:24 schrieb John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com:

 You also have exceptions such as the Albert Memorial in London, England.


can you explain this: is it a memorial or a monument in osm (for you)?

cheers
Martin




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to recognize memorial from monument?

[John Eldredge]

You also have exceptions such as the Albert Memorial in London, England.

--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On July 20, 2015 4:12:44 PM Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote:


Seems like this message got lost (in the moderation maybe), so I send it
again:

W dniu 12.07.2015 17:04, Martin Koppenhoefer napisał(a):

 importance: memorials are smaller. The walk into criterion is often
 useful but should not be seen too strict. E.g. this obelisk, weighting
 455 tons and with 32 m height, IMHO is a monument and not just a
 memorial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateran_Obelisk
 but it is completely massive and therefore not accessible in the
 inside. Similarly this monument is not just a memorial:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Rushmore

My intuition is that we need another rather clear and simple criterion:
it's monument if it's high enough. All the examples on the Wiki are at
least 15 m high and your ones are also the same.

That would be quite straightforward to add to Wiki definition and the
result would be much easier to recognize. It could be something like (**
marks a planned addition):

A memorial object, especially large (one can go inside, walk on or
through it) *or high enough (at least a dozen or so meters)* and made of
stone, built to remember, show respect to a person or group of people or
to commemorate an event.

--
The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags
down [A. Cohen]

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] service=rural (Was Rural Alley?)

[John Eldredge]

In Japan and Korea, do you tend to have isolated farmhouses, each on its 
own farm (the most common pattern in the USA), or do the farmers tend to 
settle in villages, from which they travel out to their farms (the 
traditional European format)?  Another pattern in the US, among small 
communities that have grown up since the invention of automobiles, is 
settlements strung out along a highway, several miles long, but 
one-dimensional, with farmland behind both rows of houses. These patterns 
make the residential-vs.-tertiary-vs.-service roads a bit ambiguous.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On July 12, 2015 8:24:18 PM Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote:


This is the same in Korea.  Tagging the roads based on their physical
characteristics (such as roadsign type, and with or without centre lines)
is an excellent way to avoid subjective judgements.  Roads that go
somewhere, but have no painted line, are unclassified.  These roads we are
talking about in Japan (and Korea) are not highway=unclassified, and they
are definitely not tracks.

Andrew

On 13 July 2015 at 08:08, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:



  On Jul 12, 2015, at 10:34 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
 dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Maybe you have to raise your current unclassified roads to tertiary to
 make room for these roads in question?

 Japan tagging rules (on the wiki) states only roads with a painted center
 line can be tagged tertiary. Japan has a more rigid and administrative
 definitions for all roads tertiary and up.

 PS : where are alleys in your statement? They are clearly under
 unclassified.

 Javbw
 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] symmetrical guardrails

[John Eldredge]

Depending upon which side of the road the guardrail is on, either the left 
side or right side may be inner. If there is a distinct inner and outer 
side, the inner side will always be towards the traffic.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On July 11, 2015 4:05:21 AM Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote:


The wiki page
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dguard_rail
says:
If there is a clear inner/outer demarcation to the guard rail, construct
the line so that the *right side is inner* and *left side is outer*.
Often you find perfectly symmetric guardrails
(example: http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/9-9-x8ynIiIdpNQHeA5CWg)

I would like to tag this fact. Any examples or suggestions?



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] symmetrical guardrails

[John Eldredge]

That seems reasonable. I was responding to the idea, stated in the original 
definition, that the right side of a guardrail would always be the inner 
side of the guardrail, and the left side would always be outside. In 
practice, guard rails can be present on either, or both, sides of a 
roadway, particularly if it is on a raised embankment.  The side towards 
the traffic will be the inner side. As you said, a guardrail dividing two 
ways may have two inner sides if the supports are shared.



--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On July 11, 2015 8:13:01 PM johnw jo...@mac.com wrote:



 On Jul 12, 2015, at 4:41 AM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:

 Depending upon which side of the road the guardrail is on, either the 
left side or right side may be inner. If there is a distinct inner and 
outer side, the inner side will always be towards the traffic.



Japanese motorway barriers.

https://goo.gl/maps/7iZrg https://goo.gl/maps/7iZrg Countryside
https://goo.gl/maps/qNir5 https://goo.gl/maps/qNir5 Urban

There are some guardrails which share support poles with the one for the 
opposite road, the total set being about 50-80cm wide.
If they used separates poles, and had any kind of a gap between them, I 
could see drawing two ways to represent both guardrails.


Unless it is very easy to map both sides of the guardrail ( there is a gap) 
or putting two ways running in opposite directions on the same nodes, (to 
represent both guardrails), wouldn’t a “both” value of some kind (like for 
embankment) be reasonable in some instances?


Javbw
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Wedding Reception

[John Eldredge]

The social event is the wedding reception, not the location in which the 
event is held. You are the only person I have ever heard to refer to the 
location, rather than the event, as a wedding reception.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On July 7, 2015 6:55:45 PM Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:


Hi

Voting for this 'property' is now open.

Wedding Reception Definition: A place where a social event is held after
the completion of a wedding ceremony.

Note that it is a 'property' rather than a key:value (what I call a sub
tag). It may be applied to any key:value examples;

building=yes
wedding_reception=yes

leisure=park
wedding_reception=yes


And so on.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/wedding_reception





___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?

[John Eldredge]

I have seen some people insist that highway=track only be used if the 
landuse Is farmland, but not if the land is covered by bushes or trees 
because no cultivation is taking place.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On July 8, 2015 6:06:21 AM moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote:


On 08/07/2015, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote:
 
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1


To me this (along with the description) is highway=track
tracktype=grade1. You can add surface, lanes, maxspeed, width, etc for
good measure.

The difference between track and service is not about the quality of
the road, but about its intended purpose. Track for agrigulture,
service for built up areas (very simplified). It's the same for all
highway=* values : the purpose and official classification are more
important criterias than the road quality. Which makes the secondary
tags even more usefull.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - wedding_reception

[John Eldredge]

As a native speaker of English, I agree with you. A wedding reception is an 
event, not a place, and other types of receptions (events) are likely to 
use the same space. The location would best be tagged reception_area or 
reception_hall.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 24, 2015 12:24:25 AM Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:


I don't know any place like that in Belgium. Places where wedding
receptions take place typically also allow for other parties such as
wedding anniversaries, etc. Actually any gathering where food and drinks
are involved. They are called feestzaal (party room) in Dutch. I would
not use the tag wedding_reception for those.
 I need a more general tag for those places.

As a non-native speaker, wedding_reception sounds more for the event, not
for the room in which the event takes place. Am I mistaken on this ?

Whenever the church has a dedicated room for gatherings (typically used
after funerals, not s much for weddings) it is called a parochiezaal
(parish room). Can't use this tag for them I guess.

I would love to see a general tag for a place that is available for rent
and where drinks and foods are served. The menu is typically agreed upon
beforehand.

regards

m

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:16 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 Following my concern with the proposed 'reception' values being missused
 as wedding receptions, I am proposing the new value of 'wedding_reception'.
 There are very few of these in the OSM data base, but they do exist in fair
 numbers in the world.

 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/wedding_reception

 A Wedding Reception provides a place where a social event, involving the
  bride and groom, is held after the completion of a marriage ceremony.
 It is held as hospitality for those who have attended the wedding.



 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] tagging large intersections cross-road sections

[John Eldredge]

Actually it only works properly with a fixed-width font. Proportional fonts 
have some characters wider than others.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 24, 2015 3:52:54 AM Tom Pfeifer t.pfei...@computer.org wrote:


ASCII art only works with proportional font:


S   N
S   N
WWW*WWW*EEE
S   N
S   N
WWW*EEE*EEE
S   N
S   N

Marc Gemis wrote on 2015-06-24 09:15:
 but this does not work for the cases where there is only 1 OSM way for S  N.
  Suppose S  N do not form a dual carriage way and the name of the road 
 changes

  at the crossing, N in the north, S in the South, what do you do then ?

I agree that this is the trickiest situation, so I pick either name from N 
or S,

preferably the more significant road. Thus the driver coming from E will get
announced turn left into N, then straight on S.

N
N
WWW*EEE
N
N
WWW*EEE
S
S

Do we have better alternatives? Should we leave the snippet sections unnamed?

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Reception Desk.

[John Eldredge]

At one hospital here in Nashville, TN, they cut back on the number of 
reception desks. The two primary entrances have desks with someone seated 
at them. Three other entrances have an unstaffed desk, with a webcam and a 
telephone.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 16, 2015 5:48:03 AM Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:


On 16/06/2015 8:02 PM, Ruben Maes wrote:
 Hi

 I'm a bit late here (just recently started really reading the tagging
 list), but could this also be used for reception webcams? In my
 city's hospital, the reception desk has been replaced with a tv screen
 and a camera. The receptionist is at the other campus of hospital, in
 another town, 15 km from where you are standing.

Wow. Is the doctor 15km away too?  :-)

The tag applies .. the place a visitor goes to for info etc

So yes... it is not about the 'desk' that is used to separate it from 
weeding reception, GPS reception, etc.
I'll have to make that clear in the tag! The name is the best I could come 
up with. Not too late to change it if someone has a better name?



 All the best
 Ruben

Note on the distance to the Doctor .. here in Australia 'we' have the Royal 
Flying Doctor Service (RFDS) ..

  the Doctor can be 1,000 km away, not far in a fast plane.


 2015-06-16 2:52 GMT+02:00 Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com:
 I think I'll be closing this shortly. Possibly tomorrow.

 There are some 10 votes, one against, the majority approving.

 There were close to 40 votes last time... where has the passion gone?

 On 2/06/2015 8:47 AM, Warin wrote:

 Hi,

 Voting for the mark 2 version of Reception Desk is now open.

 Link
 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/amenity%3Dreception_desk



 A Reception Desk provides a place where people (visitors, patients, or
 clients) arrive to be greeted, any information recorded, the relevant person
 is contacted and the visitor/s, patient/s, or client/s sent on to the
 relevant person/place.


 It is particularly useful to know the location of the reception desk when it
 is located away from the typical place (near a front entry) or where there
 is only one amongst a number of large buildings. First seen as a suggested
 extended tag for camp sites, thought to have a wider application to offices,
 hotels, hospitals and educational features.

 The amenity key is chosen so it can be used for both tourism and business
 situations.


 Thanks for your participation.



 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Grumble about empty comments on this list

[John Eldredge]

I seem to have left out part of what I was intending to type. I judge 
whether something is a quote or not on the presence of a greater than sign 
at the start of each quoted line in plaintext email, the HTML formatting 
that renders as a vertical bar at the start of each quoted line in HTML 
formatted email, or the headers used to separate quoted text in Outlook.  A 
mail client that marks up the text you type to be indistinguishable from 
text you are quoting is seriously broken.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 15, 2015 10:51:45 John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:


Typically, they will say something like, On date, Xyz wrote and then
quote part or all of what someone else wrote, without adding any comments
of their own. I am relying on the use of the  prefix on plain-text quotes,
or the bar prefix on HTML quotes, or the header on Outlook-formatted text,
then it is seriously broken.

--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.



On June 15, 2015 09:05:15 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 5:59 PM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:

  If you want to comment about a message someone else posted, don't simply
  quote them without adding any comments of your own. We already know what
  they posted. Empty posts can happen by accident, but some participants of
  this list are in the habit of posting zero-content comments on a daily
  basis.


 I can't remember seeing any of them. Certainly not on a daily basis. Is
 there something with yours (not showing all content) or my email program
 (automatically filtering them out) ?

 regards

 m
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Airport Pet Relief Areas (toilet and watering spot for pet and service animals)

[John Eldredge]

The airport is likely to want a detailed map of the secure areas that are 
off-limits to the general public, but they are unlikely to place that 
information into a publicly-accessible database.  As you say, the public 
map will show (1) areas available to everyone, (2) areas available only to 
passengers who have cleared security checkpoints, and (3) areas accessible 
only to authorized personnel, shown on the public map only as an amorphous 
block.  Even for internal use, different versions of the secure-areas map 
are likely to exist.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 12, 2015 10:08:19 PM johnw jo...@mac.com wrote:


 On Jun 13, 2015, at 8:04 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:

 I don't think that level of detail is needed.


Looking at the basic diagram linked to by Bryce, it looks like there is 
only 2-3 main categories, - and what goes in the categories for now can be 
inferred from imagery (for the most part), so it shouldn’t be something a 
mapper is asking an airport official, let alone asking while they are 
traveling. It probably is on their websites - delivery trucks and people 
who visit the airport to service the facilities or planes need to know 
where to go and who to see when going there for a job - and those are not 
secrets. Detailed information on all kinds of airport diagrams are publicly 
available, as pilots need information.


And when indoor mapping becomes a reality, having the proper tags all set 
up for the basic types of areas (departure, arrival, etc) is really, really 
handy.


AFAIK, I think almost all of the data we would be interested in mapping - 
now and in the future -  *is* what is secure and what isn’t for the general 
public at a very basic level. but there are two secure areas - what is 
secure for people, and what is secure for the plane and it’s equipment. 
Both of which is easily determined by anyone and not secret (is it inside 
the terminal for passengers or is it on the apron or baggage handling?). 
You know you can’t go play on the tarmac or jump the security line to see 
your cousin at the gate - these are the basics that we wish to map - 
because the basic extents of where you can go as a visitor, a departing 
traveller, and an arriving traveller is something all people going to the 
airport are interested in - and shown on all the signs and maps throughout 
the airport.


 It’s not secret.

Mapping that information is not breaking some need-to-know thing.

As with all airports, there is a further divide between “ground” and “air” 
operations - and all the “security stuff is over in ground - and air 
operations (the runway and major taxiways) is secured by a fence - but that 
area does have an official name and is trivial to map correctly - 
especially if that tag is obscured from the mapper by the mapping software.


We might as well use the proper names for these areas used by officials 
when tagging something - the names and and the basic areas are not secret. 
We don’t need to render all of it either. And mapping all the private 
indoor ways and inaccessible corridors or private baggage handling systems 
inside IS NOT something we should map (unless it is outdoors or in a 
distinct building we can label as a whole), nor are we discussing mapping 
these off limits areas - but areas that are accessible by the general 
traveling public is totally reasonable to map - especially when indoor 
mapping rolls around.



Javbw




--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Airport Pet Relief Areas (toilet and watering spot for pet and service animals)

[John Eldredge]

How many people will understand this use of sterile? It may be a term of 
art in the security field, but in ordinary use it refers to biological 
sterility, as in sterilized bandages. In biological terms, an area to be 
used for pets to urinate/defecate is the opposite of sterile.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 11, 2015 1:37:15 AM Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:


On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 9:43 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:

   The 'sterile' I think is redundant.

 The sterile is *not* redundant, it's a grouping classifier.
Very important, given the blizzard of motley tags that may follow it.

aeroway_security=sida:xx
aeroway_security=sterile:xx


Otherwise you have to know about all the possible secure values to figure
out which ones are for
passengers and which ones are for airport employees:


 international
 international_departure
 international_arrival
 domestic
 domestic_arrival
 domestic_departure
 yes (as in there is security . but unknown or variable type/classification)
 no (as in no security)
 I do not understand 'aeroway_security=landside' ... ?


 landside is within the airport security zone, outside terminal
security.  Anyone can access this zone typically, but airport security
rules apply such as no lasers or guns.
Other security zones include Air Operations Area and baggage_handling
for micromappers.

A fuel station for example is likely in the AOA security zone and
inaccessible for example to caravans (That's one of the reasons
amenity=fuel is such a bad choice for such fuel stations).





Alternatively free text, unparsable, has merits also.  It displays far
better in a popup window on a mobile device:

security_zone=International Arrivals
security_zone=General Aviation AOA
security_zone=Bag Make-Up Room
security_zone=International Departures

Yes, in some airports General Aviation is it's own security zone, something
GA pilots must contend with.
It's neither SIDA nor sterile as objects may be introduced from an
unregulated airport.


http://picpaste.com/Selection_235-UxmuLt8r.png




So what colour should we paint the bike shed?



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Donation

[John Eldredge]

My experience as an American has been that a blood bank is a storage 
location rather than a donation point, although there is no particular 
reasons both functions can't be under one roof.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 10, 2015 4:36:28 PM Ruben Maes ruben.mae...@gmail.com wrote:


Thanks for the feedback, everyone.
Replied inline below.


2015-06-10 1:58 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de:
 Honestly I don't think it's such a good idea to start voting 1 year later
 when there wasn't an ongoing discussion.


 I'm not sure about amenity=donation when some things are very different.
 I also feel like bood_bank, sperm_bank (do we want to tag those?) and

I'm not a native English speaker but according to Wikipedia[1] blood
bank means a place where blood is stored, not collected. Maybe
there's a difference between BE and AE?

 amenity=social facility would cover most of it and there are other like
 shop=charity etc. So we already have a lot of POIs where you could just add
 donation:*=yes.
 With that in mind limiting the prosoal to those few tags also makes little
 sense, might as well use healthcare=donations then.

 donation:facility=mobile makes no sense as we don't tag this. At best this
 could be some HOT tag.

In Belgium there are places where a mobile blood collection team
visits regularly[2]. I've mapped an example[3].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_bank
[2] http://www.rodekruis.be/wat-kan-jij-doen/geef-bloed/waar-bloed-geven/
[3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3586748252

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to tag a Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (US:DMV)

[John Eldredge]

In the USA, how it is handled varies from state to state, so there is at 
least one country where it isn't uniformly handled on a national level.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 9, 2015 4:03:33 PM Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote:


I'm guessing we don't need admin_level with vehicle registration, because
it's always the same within a certain country. So let's keep it simple:

building=yes + vehicle_registration=yes + driver_licensing=yes.

uto, 9. lip 2015. 17:42  p...@trigpoint.me.uk je napisao:

 On Tue Jun 9 16:26:36 2015 GMT+0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 
  you can use them universally for payments of government taxes and fees,
  typically you have to stick them onto forms or other documents to make
 them
  valid.
 
 Tax_stamp sounds good, I have never heard of a UK equivalent.

 Phil (trigpoint)
 --
 Sent from my Jolla
 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Grumble about empty comments on this list

[John Eldredge]

If you want to comment about a message someone else posted, don't simply 
quote them without adding any comments of your own. We already know what 
they posted. Empty posts can happen by accident, but some participants of 
this list are in the habit of posting zero-content comments on a daily basis.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[John Eldredge]

You are fond of proposing keys with arbitrary numbers as the value, or part 
of the value. This would be fine if we were using a relational database, 
where a mapper could select one of a list of human-language descriptions, 
which would then get translated to the magic number for storage. However, 
we do not have such tables, and presenting a mapper with a list of choices 
such as photo1, photo2, and photo3 is likely to result in corrupted data, 
due to a mapper picking one at random, or misremembering what means what.  
As long as the descriptions of the values aren't shown at the time the 
value is being selected, we need to stick close to natural language, not 
magic numbers.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 6, 2015 5:31:48 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:


On 5 June 2015 at 10:33, David Fisher djfishe...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 12:33 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
 wrote:
 
  The issue with the 'oneway' key is that the key itself contains 'data'
  relating to the value. Oneway without a value would imply =yes whereas
  building without a value (or =yes) would give data independent of the
 value,
  IYSWIM
 
  building=
 
  hospital=
 
  The latter describes the building without the need for a value.
 
  I note your TIAL v CE above. Why do we need to know what the landuse is
 in
  any case ?
 

 I do see what you mean.  I think the difference is that building = x
 in some sense defines the presence of the object, as does highway =
 x on a way.  So, if building = x is not set (presumably on a
 circular way), or if highway = x is not set (presumably on a
 linear way), then those ways are just collections of nodes, nothing
 more.  But oneway = x defines a *characteristic* of a way.  A way
 must fundamentally *be* something (e.g. a building or a highway), but
 it may nor may not have any number of characteristics which don't
 alter that fundamental *being*.  The only sensible way to deal with
 *characteristics* (other than insisting that every way has hundreds of
 tags) is to assume defaults.


The problem with oneway is the key name - it's 3 letters too long:

way=1
way=2 - maybe ways=1, ways=2.


 As for landuse=residential -- I agree that we could probably do
 without it.  But it does add to the readability of the map, especially
 at low zoom levels, as it enables you to see at a glance where places
 are and how big they are.


Again, the issue is the letters in the tag. landuse=place or
landuse=settlement - landuse=town rather than landuse=residential,
place=town - combine the two.


 Personally I'm an advocate of covering the
 majority of the map (not necessarily 100%) with some form of landuse
 area, e.g. residential, industrial, grass/meadow/parkland, farmland,
 etc. -- though I appreciate that not everyone shares that view.


Anyone that doesn't share that view should be nowhere near OSM ! Sounds
like a military cover-up to me ;)

I do feel the default map not covered should be black though - to make the
unmapped areas stand out :)


--
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my
family, property  pets*

TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model

[John Eldredge]

What if the shop sells both photo gear and frames?

--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 4, 2015 10:11:26 PM Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:


Hi,

Shop=photo changed to remove frames and framing from it.
Reason.. there is a documented shop=frame so if the shop=photo does
frames then it should be tagged shop=photo; frame
I have included that information on the wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dphoto

shop=hobby No documentation present so added

  * text to suggest a more detailed tag be used.
  * link to the wiki shop= hobby area.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dhobby
I think the 'status' here should be 'depreciated' ?

shop=model No documentation so added text + photo to its wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmodel
added link on the shop= wiki page.




--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[John Eldredge]

There is an obvious limit to the number of types of icons that can be 
rendered on any one map before it becomes incomprehensible. However, more 
than one renderer can use the same data, depending on the intended purpose. 
There are also applications that let you inquire for every location tagged 
as X within a geographical area.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 5, 2015 4:43:51 AM Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote:


 shop=tea; coffee

 The 'problem' is there is no wiki page explaining how to combine values.

 And no explanation as to the overall concept of OSM tagging scheme.


The real problem is it isn't suported by the renderer and some other
apps, that's why people don't advocate for it too much.
__
openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model

[John Eldredge]

Also, there are a lot of so-called hobby shops that carry supplies for 
decorative crafts such as beading, embroidery, and jewelry making.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 5, 2015 5:33:22 PM John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:

Yea - in America hobby shops like the wikipedia entry exist - they are 
model/rc/train/craft stores - they have a mix of all the types - they are 
not a specific specialty store, which exist too.


Generic shop:
http://goo.gl/maps/cy4I2 hobby people

Just model trains:
http://goo.gl/maps/p9D3n reeds train shop.

and table gaming stores selling DnD supplies (dice, figures) and 
warhammer and similar figure pacs, along with adult oriented card games 
(Magic) and the adult oriented board games (settlers of kattan, etc)


http://goo.gl/maps/NHT3m game empire

In Japan, there are those too - but with the prevalence of plastic models - 
some shops cater only to plastic model kits

http://goo.gl/maps/325oN toy box Okazaki

Shop=hobby
Shop=model trains
Shop=table_gaming
Shop=scale_models

The better choice (I think) is to create a subkey for hobby and define out 
the different shops that way.



hobby:model_trains=yes
hobby:rc_cars=yes
hobby:rc_planes=yes
hobby:rc_drones=yes
hobby:scale_model_kits=yes
hobby:table_games=yes
hobby:card_games=yes
hobby:game_figures=yes

That way the shop types can be mixed and matched - and still under the 
umbrella of hobby.



And I'm sure there are a multitude of others.

Plus there are a lot of these things in more dedicated crafting stores (for 
painting, scrapbooking, etc) and toy stores as well.


Javbw

 On Jun 5, 2015, at 9:09 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 5/06/2015 9:14 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 Am 05.06.2015 um 11:25 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com:

 Consider these to be forthcoming drafts ... better than what was there.
 If the past mappers find and disagree .. good. I'll try to contact them 
latter .. and some of the other 'model' values too (model_train 
model_railway etc) though there are fewer of them again. This way they will 
have something to look at and consider.


 there are different kind of model shops, your definition is for one 
kind, there are also other ones that don't deal with rc models, train or 
car models, eg this one here:


 'My' definition is broad, like a shop=supermarket .. they don't all have 
the same things.


 The one I have to tag is https://hobbyco.com.au

 Sells rc models, train, car, aeroplane, boat, ship ... kits or ready 
made, you name it they do it...


 Depends on how much detail 'we' want ...
 If shop=photo includes frames, cameras  .. why not shop=model to include 
all models?  :-\



 http://www.modulor.de

 https://hobbyco.com.au/product-taxonomy/balsa-metal-polystyrene
 Same shop as above...


 There are also workshops specialized in architectural models.

 That to me is a craft .. like a professional photographer.


 I would generally dispute the tag shop=model because of its ambiguity 
and would prefer something like those you cited above (model_railway, 
model_aviation etc)


 In which case  https://hobbyco.com.au would have 11+ tags?

 One each for car, boat, ship, railway, aeroplane ...
 I suppose military vehicles and motorcycles and trucks and farm machinery 
will be combined with car... or do you want those separated too?


 then one for each type of rc ... if rc stands for remote control .. if it 
stands for radio control then 'we'll' have to add wire control, infra-red 
control ...


 Way too many variations?



 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[John Eldredge]

I have no objection to users tagging in their local language. I also have 
no objection to those users also using tags in a language that has been 
agreed upon for use in an international context, or to others subsequently 
adding tags for other languages. Do you feel that maps for any given area 
should only be available to those fluent in the local language or languages?


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 3, 2015 7:18:57 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:


On 4 June 2015 at 00:59, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:



 Its been an uphill battle to get even the most basic (read: required)
 Japanese mapping conventions accepted. Traffic light rendering is still a
 big stinky pile of garbage. Kanji rendering is still really bad compared to
 Roman characters - both are being worked on by people better than me, but
 two down-voted proposals to get traffic light labeling/rendering fixed
 for SE asia shows where the priorities are for OSM/-carto.

 Javbw


I see no reason why different 'cultures' cannot completely ignore
'standard' carto and tags and just do their own thing. If I was looking on
Japanese OSM for a restaurant, I'd expect to not find a single one. If I
was looking for レストラン then I'd expect to find many.


--
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
 pets*

TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[John Eldredge]

OSM needs to provide for objects that fall under more than one category, 
whether it is done by allowing multiple tags with the same key, using 
semicolon-delimited values, or some other means. One often-quoted 
expression is that OSM needs to show the ground truth, and it is 
frequently the ground truth that objects fit into more than one category.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 3, 2015 7:25:15 PM Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote:


The thing is these services are also often available in supermarkets,
copyshops etc. and you don't want to put shop=photo on those.

And if a shop has both cameras and prints then you can use shop=photo if
the camera selection isn't that big like just some pointshoot cameras
or you can use shop=camera with some photo_prints=yes tag.

2 notes or shop=photo;camera is just not that great.

On 6/4/15 01:39 , Warin wrote:
 On 4/06/2015 3:37 AM, Andreas Goss wrote:
 Created/Changed the Wiki page:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcamera

 I think what we need might be a tag that in general indicates where
 you can get prints

 I think that is the present shop=photo ...
 but its wili description is not clear.

 Some shops .. do both; sell prints and sell cameras.

 I think there are shops that only do prints, and yet others that only
 sell cameras

 So .. is there a case for individual shop values?
 These could be combined where needed .. shop=photo; camera or separate
 nodes.

 ---
 There is a case for the wiki of shop=photo to be clearly defined!

 ==
 According to tag info there are over 800 values for shop= ... some of
 them are not English, some as single and plural variations.
 The vast majority have no documentation.
 I think I'll document shop=model .. there are various finer values
 model_railway, model_train, model_railways being 3.

 But shop=camera .. and shop=photo ... ummm need your thoughts.

 Should there be a shop=camera ...
   if so should it include associated things like flash, tripods, filters
 etc

 If not .. should cameras go into shop=photo?
 In any case .. what should shop=photo be about?
   film development?
   photo printing
   framing  ... (there are specialist framing shops .. they do paintings
 too)

 Once people have express their ideas I'll try to come to combine them
 into the best tag/s and put that forward as a proposal for comment. But
 at the moment I've no clear idea ... mainly due to the poor shop=photo
 wiki.






 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


--
__
openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[John Eldredge]

Some businesses that were formerly in the film-developing trade have 
shifted over into producing prints from digital photos. The 
professional-grade color printers produce noticeably better results than 
consumer-grade printers do.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 2, 2015 11:33:08 PM Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:


the wiki for shop=photo A shop dealing with photos or video in any way.
humm .. does not necessarily sell cameras ... ?
and 'develop photos'? errr .. that is now a specialist activity given the 
reduction in film cameras.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dphoto




Where as a camera shop does sell cameras... but may not 'deal with photos'
So someone has a redirect up on shop=camera... and the redirect says 
'everything with photos'?


Would it not be better to call them what is most common?
I think there are now more camera shops than Photo shops .. take a look 
in a phone book?

  :-D   Mine has a redirect to Photographic Equipment !!  So what do I know?

Maybe the wiki page for shop=photo needs to actually include
cameras?
Photographic Equipment?



On 3/06/2015 1:18 PM, Andre Engels wrote:
 I would say that fits very well with shop=photo, which can be found
 further down the page under art, music, hobbies, and to which the
 link that you created now redirects (because someone in 2011 already
 thought shop=camera would better be shop=photo)



 On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,
 I've added the tag shop=camera on a node .. reflecting ONE shop I have
 mapped.
 There are others that I can tag (when I get to them).

 They sell cameras, video or still, tripods, memory cards, filters etc etc.

 Any idea for a better tag?  .. just fishing for ideas at this stage!

 I've placed it in the wiki shop 'electronics' section .. best fit.

 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:shop#Electronics





 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging





___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[John Eldredge]

The reason for tag/value pairs such as oneway=no is that the absence of a 
oneway tag can mean either that it is unknown whether a given way is 
one-way or not, or that it is definitely known to be not be one-way. Using 
one-way=no states that it is definitely known not to be one-way.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 2, 2015 7:06:26 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:


iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should not
show oneway at all.

In OSM if oneway=no then it's not oneway and the oneway tag should not
appear at all.

The only time oneway should appear is in the case of oneway=yes - and the
'=yes' is superfluous.

OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. Similarly
are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'.

Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what categor(ies)
an object fits in


A fountain is a fountain. It does not matter if it is

   - an amenity
   - man made
   - natural water (???!!)

etc. Such categorization is semi-ambiguous; people think differently and
are happy to categorize differently - and more - argue over categories.

OSM is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is
not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a
significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but
sadly lacking a great leader.

--
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
 pets*

TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] dock=tidal

[John Eldredge]

That is just one of the common meanings of dock. Another common meaning is 
as a synonym for pier, an above-water structure used to give access to a ship.




On May 29, 2015 3:41:23 AM Malcolm Herring malcolm.herr...@btinternet.com 
wrote:



On 29/05/2015 08:41, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
 Why is this a property of the dock,
 rather than a property of the water body.

A dock is a body of water. It may or may not be separated from a
connecting river or sea by a lock or single gate.


 What's wrong with floating vs. fixed?

What do you mean? Is this a general question or a tagging suggestion?



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Comms towers

[John Eldredge]

Pole without a pole = pole? I am confused. What sort of structure are you 
describing?




On May 29, 2015 5:48:33 AM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:


On 29 May 2015 at 05:47, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:

 according to this wiki page there is a difference between

 man_made=communications_tower

 and

 man_made=tower
 tower:type=communications

 and then there is also

 man_made=mast
 tower:type=communications


 pretty easy to understand :-)



Mast - pole with guy-wires.
Tower - free-standing with wider base usually with several aerials/dishes
Mast without guy-wires = pole.
Pole with only one guy-wire = pole.

Pole without a pole = pole.

Glad we got that sorted.


--
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
 pets*

TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

[John Eldredge]

Zip codes, in the USA, are the same way. They are intended for the post 
office's routing, and don't necessarily correspond to administrative 
divisions of the land. A given plot of land may be in one administrative 
division for tax purposes, yet be lumped into a neighboring division for 
mail-delivery purposes.




On May 29, 2015 7:34:20 AM Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:


On Fri, 2015-05-29 at 12:57 +0100, pmailkeey . wrote:


 For some strange reason, RM chose settlements rather than counties to
 determine postcodes.

They chose where the sorting offices were and from that where the lines
of communication went, that is why Market Bosworth (a long way inside
Leicestershire) has a Nuneaton, Warwickshire postcode/postal address and
why Barmouth on the Welsh coast has a Shrewsbury postcode.

Postcodes are a good way to deliver mail, they are pretty rubbish for
anything else.

Phil (trigpoint)




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] To mark as covered, or to not mark as covered?

[John Eldredge]

One case where covered would be appropriate would be a highway or railway 
in the mountains, where a slanted roof is above the way to protect against 
falling rocks and/or avalanches. I remember encountering such in the Swiss 
Alps.




On May 28, 2015 6:46:21 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:


I've seen 'covered' being used (once!) and my opinion is this:

First example under railway bridge, now car park - use tunnel, not
'covered'.

Anywhere within buildings, use tunnel=building_passage.

The only real significant place 'covered' would seem most appropriate would
be where a highway is covered where the cover is purely for the benefit of
the highway - e.g. West Cornwall covered bridge. So basically, the cover
follows the line of the highway and for no other reason than to cover it.


--
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
 pets*

TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area

[John Eldredge]

Also, large industrial facilities may have all mail delivered to a central 
office, yet have separate street addresses for individual buildings for 
delivering goods.




On May 28, 2015 9:21:44 AM Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:


In the UK we have postal addresses which are for Royal Mail's convenience,
not yours. Often your (correct) postal address suggests you are in a
different town, and sometimes even a different country.

What would you call the geographic address for NP16 7JU? The postal
address is Chepstow. It's not even in Wales.

 On 27 May 2015 at 08:07, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:

  Martin et al.,

 It might help to have some kind of paradigm here as I think our frames
 of
 reference may be divergent. If we don't have consensus about the
 question
 we will never agree about the answer except by coincidence, and that
 would be the worst situation of all.

 What are the use cases for an address? Is it as a routing target? A
 label or annotation for a building? or a property in a looser
 sense?
 Is it for the benefit of the postman? Or what?

 //colin



 In the UK we have postal addresses and geographic addresses. In the main
 they're the same but where there isn't a postal address, there's only the
 geographic address. There are cases where the postal address and
 geographic
 address are different - such as PO Box numbers where a firm at one address
 has their post delivered to another address.

 Address: geographic/routing (A description for finding a 'place' - a
 (geographic) location; the next 8 bits, a web page etc.
 Address: postal post delivery.


 --
 Mike.
 @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
 For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
 via *the area's premier website - *

 *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family,
 property
  pets*

 TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail
 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite

[John Eldredge]

Did you forget to add any comments?



On May 26, 2015 6:58:49 AM wp4...@gmail.com wrote:


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite

[John Eldredge]

The level key is intended for OSM internal use, to tell routing and 
rendering software what connects to what. For indoor mapping, it would make 
sense to also have a way to name floors, which needs to allow for both 
numeric and non-numeric floor names. I have been in buildings that have 
more than one named floor. For example, one parking garage that I sometimes 
use has levels named Basement, Ground (ground level on one side of the 
building), 1 (ground level on the opposite side of the building), 2, 3, 4, 
and 5.




On May 24, 2015 10:18:56 PM Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote:


 It's highly likely that the street level floor would be named 'Ground' - so
 if software needs to know this, that would be a good starting point. It
 could also be worked out by which highway meets the street.

That's funny.  In your previous example no floor is named 'Ground'.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite

[John Eldredge]

The ele tag is for indicating the elevation of an object above sea level. 
Not many people will know the elevation of each of a building's floors 
above sea level.




On May 25, 2015 8:30:26 AM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:


On 25 May 2015 at 14:08, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 25/05/2015, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:
  The floor level *order* will be clear from the ele(vation) tag, won't it.

 No.

 Since when has the ele=* tag been used for floors in a building?



What other tag do you propose to indicate vertical position then ? Why
would we need another tag when ele fits this purpose?

--
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
 pets*

TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite

[John Eldredge]

Yes, I object. The purpose of the level tag is to tell routing and 
rendering software what the vertical order of objects is.  It indicates 
what connects to what, and, if they don't connect, what renders above what. 
It is not intended to hold floor names.




On May 24, 2015 6:42:03 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:


Any objection if I 'rewrite http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level ?

It seems to have been written with the misconception that floor names are
numbers when they're not.

A rewrite:

   - Won't affect existing names that appear as numbers.
   - Will encourage mappers to use correct names for floors (as found in
   the building) rather than attempt to convert them to meaningless numbers.


--
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
 pets*

TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas

[John Eldredge]

In the USA, a dog park is an area of a public park, often enclosed by a 
fence, where you are allowed to play with your dog off-leash. In other 
sections of the park, or in an entire park if no section is designated as a 
dog park, you are likely to be cited and fined for letting your dog run free.




On May 25, 2015 10:56:55 AM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:


We'll be moving on to 'dog parks' next. That's places to park your dog
(outside) while you visit a shop, for instance. It seems they do this in
Rome - for a start.

--
Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
 pets*

TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas

[John Eldredge]

We will need to use different tags for the two concepts, however.



On May 25, 2015 3:43:47 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:


On 25 May 2015 at 19:32, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:

   In the USA, a dog park is an area of a public park, often enclosed by
 a fence, where you are allowed to play with your dog off-leash. In other
 sections of the park, or in an entire park if no section is designated as a
 dog park, you are likely to be cited and fined for letting your dog run
 free.

 On May 25, 2015 10:56:55 AM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
 wrote:

 We'll be moving on to 'dog parks' next. That's places to park your dog
 (outside) while you visit a shop, for instance. It seems they do this in
 Rome - for a start.



A couple of examples for dog parks (place to park your dog):

http://static.turistipercaso.it/image/s/sardegna/sardegna_5yv6e.T0.jpg
http://aprireunbar.com/wp-content/uploads/foto-73.jpg


It's a good job we can use different icons ! P with a dog v a greened area
with icon showing 2 dogs playing.


Mike.
@millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
 pets*

TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Damage Assessment Tags - Would like feedback on a schema

[John Eldredge]

There is an organization already tracking crowd-sourced reports of needed 
repairs, SeeClickFix. I have used this to report issues such as blocked 
street drains. The local Public Works department monitors these reports and 
marks them closed once the needed repairs have been done.




On May 24, 2015 2:56:21 AM Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:


On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 12:22 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:

  Because it become available to others .. like the government/local
 authorities who may be in charge of repairs?


Crowd source databases are not appropriate sources for government/local
action at that level.  Were there interest
from a government/local authority, that agency could be granted protected
access to the taking manager or other data store.

Adding tags to the main database is not the only option for collecting,
maintaining or distributing data.



--
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging