Re: [Tagging] Kindergarten, Childcare and Preschool
I do think there's some distinction in the US between kindergarden and day care (and it's too early to find the wikipedia articles to back this up, my apologies...) so more generally speaking -- the distinction is that kindergarden has government certified teachers and probably under stricter regulation. In some states, including NY I believe - its actually mandatory, where forms of day care are not. On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 8:20 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I think we should agree on an umbrella term for all institutions that care for and teach children before they go to real school. Is amenity=day_care already the term I'm talking about? And then on the wiki just write If you're not sure, put amenity=day_care. That way we have covered all the different types of those institutions that we have never heard about. I think we need this because there are probably lots of gray areas of what caring is, and what teaching is. Some would say it's the same thing. Teaching children how to get along with each other isn't less important than teaching them 1+1. Also, you can teach children 1+1 through play and fun. If there is some clear distinction, I'm not aware of it. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Kindergarten, Childcare and Preschool
that's not to say i disagree with the suggestion, just adding more context. On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 8:36 AM, alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: I do think there's some distinction in the US between kindergarden and day care (and it's too early to find the wikipedia articles to back this up, my apologies...) so more generally speaking -- the distinction is that kindergarden has government certified teachers and probably under stricter regulation. In some states, including NY I believe - its actually mandatory, where forms of day care are not. On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 8:20 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I think we should agree on an umbrella term for all institutions that care for and teach children before they go to real school. Is amenity=day_care already the term I'm talking about? And then on the wiki just write If you're not sure, put amenity=day_care. That way we have covered all the different types of those institutions that we have never heard about. I think we need this because there are probably lots of gray areas of what caring is, and what teaching is. Some would say it's the same thing. Teaching children how to get along with each other isn't less important than teaching them 1+1. Also, you can teach children 1+1 through play and fun. If there is some clear distinction, I'm not aware of it. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Kindergarten, Childcare and Preschool
Thanks for adding productivity to the conversation! On Jul 22, 2014, at 1:53 PM, John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com wrote: Friends, I've had this in my to-do list for a while, and the recent discussion about min_age and age_group prompted me to bring attention to this issue. We should review the way kindergartens are being tagged. From what I have seen, one thing seems clear: there is demand for differentiating between places where kids are simply taken care of, and places where kids have basic education, but not at school level. First, some history I discovered looking in the wiki: * amenity=preschool[1] was proposed in the past to differentiate between places where kids go learn things(preschool) and places where kids are simply cared for (kindergarden). It was rejected in the voting process. (it has ~220 uses currently [2]) * one alternative way of tagging a preschool would be to tag it as amenity=school + isced:level=0, while kindergarten becomes simply the place where kids are taken care of. One problem with this is that it seems an ISCED level might not fit so well with all countries's education system (some people mentioned it doesn't with Germany's [3]). * amenity=childcare [4] was proposed in the past to differentiate between places where kids go learn things(kindergarten) and places where kids are simply cared for (childcare). It was rejected in the voting process. But turns out that nowadays amenity=childcare is supported by the iD editor [5] and consequently has around 1400 uses. My humble opinion is that Kindergarten seems to be defined as the place where kids get some basic education [7], and it's probably used like that, so it should remain that way (even if it may have some overlap with isced:level=0). While amenity=childcare (that has already gained traction) should be representative of the Day Care or Child Care [8]. As far as I saw, amenity=childcare is simply an rejected feature according to the wiki, and we should fix that. Cheers, John [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Pre-School_%28early_childhood_education%29 [2]: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org//search?q=amenity%3Dpreschool [3]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:isced:level#Germany [4]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare [5]: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/blob/874a3e2ad67e77e8896ff9580d40bf990eaed974/dist/locales/en.json#L1136 [6]: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=amenity%3Dchildcare [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindergarten [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_care ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Again, thanks for all the discussion. I'm following most of it. ;) I think... Could I attempt to articulate what I consider the major confusion in the existing kindergarten tag? Perhaps this is already known, but perhaps an explanation could inspire a graceful resolution. In the US, (and according to the Oxford dictionary Australia and Britain), kindergarten is legally defined for 5 and 6 year olds. There are cases where parents have attempted to enroll a child of below 5 into kindergarten and have been legally refused. Instead there are a number of facilities that accommodate children below the age of 5. For a working family, a child below 5 could be under the care of a preschool (an informal group not typically associated with a school though sometimes affiliated with a religious organization), childcare (sometimes affiliated with a person's place of employment), a nursery (typically for very young children), among others. The use of the tag kindergarten as the umbrella description for such places of care doesn't make sense in my own cultural context. It would be like looking for a temple of Jewish denomination under the tag bar, because there is wine during services. Why would I look for nursery under kindergarten when the two -- culturally and legally -- are unrelated? It is my understanding that kindergarten means something very different in other places of the world. How does OSM account for such cultural differences? Perhaps the childcare proposal should not try to replace kindergarten, but instead try to disassociate childcare from the kindergarten umbrella? But I am not sure I know enough about tags to propose something appropriate. Thanks, Alyssa. On Jul 10, 2013, at 7:45 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/7/10 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: Again, what is It referring to here? And can you give some suggestions on how to make the proposal better? I was thinking about something like social_amenity=* (no good example!) or adding some key word in front separated with a colon. what about childcare=* (or childcare=yes if you don't want to define main classes of different childcare services) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Childcare Tag
Hi, I'm new to this proposed tagging process etc, but I wanted to know what happened with this childcare tag proposal? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 Thanks, Alyssa. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Sorry, I don't really follow. So some questions inline: On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:35 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 09.07.2013 17:35, schrieb alyssa wright: Hey Alyssa I'm new to this proposed tagging process etc, but I wanted to know what happened with this childcare tag proposal? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 I really do not see any major changes to the rejected version 1 in 2011: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare My main concern is that deprecating amenity=kindergarden will not work/be accepted and that it is not flexible enough, e.g. you can not use it with other amenities. Even if there aren't major changes to the proposals perhaps the needs of OSM have shifted since 2011. So not sure I follow on why a previous rejection dictates a current one. Which tag isn't flexible enough (not sure what It refers to in your sentence). It seems like it takes into account the kindergarden scope as well as other childcare spaces, such as nursery, orphanage. It allows for more specificity than the existing kindergarden tab as well as cultural differences. Is it typical for amenity tags to be used with other amenities? Is there something in this proposal that stops such combinations? I've reviewed amenity=library and amenity=restaurant and don't see the difference in approach. But again, I'm new to this so it might be more subtle than I realize. Best would be to find a better key or prekey to get it working. Again, what is It referring to here? And can you give some suggestions on how to make the proposal better? If you want to read the discussions please have a look at the archive: version 1: spring 2011 version 2: may and june 2013 Thanks, Alyssa. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Not trying to provoke a fight, just honestly confused as to the point of this process. Thanks, Alyssa. On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: There are no approved tags in OSM. You can use any tag you want, so if the childcare tags suit you, use them. I agree that discussion and documentation are very helpful, but a few negative votes (even thousands of negative votes) cannot stop the tag being used. There are no tag police, no approval committee and no one with any right to force tags to conform. If you use an unusual tag it will simply be ignored by renderers and other data consumers, but if it becomes popular they may well start to use it. Tag use has to start somewhere and that is not simply a vote from a handful of unrepresentative people in the wiki. Cheers, Chris User: chillly alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'm new to this proposed tagging process etc, but I wanted to know what happened with this childcare tag proposal? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 Thanks, Alyssa. -- Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Thanks. I'm beginning to get a better sense of how things operate. Appreciate the patience. That said -- how does one move a proposed tag to a vote? Like can I call one right now? Best, Alyssa. On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 09.07.2013 19:13, alyssa wright wrote: Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. Most new editors (in the human being sense) tend to use the tags offered by their editors (in the software sense). Which tags are offered by the editors is entirely up to the editor coding teams, and different editors will differ in their presets. There is no automatism that promotes approved tags to editor presets, and there are many non-approved tags in editor presets. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Personally, I'd say that a tag going through a successful vote process at least means that it's not just something that a lone madperson has come up with without talking to others; it's a somewhat-discussed idea, and therefore more likely to grab the attention of mappers and editor writers, and therefore more likely to become used. I wouldn't say the process is useless, It is suitable for shining a light on a perceived need and possible solutions. The process does not, however, have the weight that some people attribute to it; just because 20 people voted on a new convoluted rule how to code opening times, doesn't mean every editor writer will now eagerly implement a new preset for that - and just because a proposal was shot down, doesn't mean that the tag won't be rendered. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 __**_ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/tagginghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Thanks Serge for the clarification. Super helpful. So as John suggested, I'll add my feedback to the existing thread and ask for a vote as I too enjoy voting. Best, Alyssa. On Jul 9, 2013, at 5:42 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 1:13 PM, alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Because some people like voting. Some people like bureaucracy, and rules of order, and all that, and so we have one for them. What kind of free-for-all would it be if we didn't have room for those whose idea of a good time is having a lot of structure? - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
