Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
On 6 June 2015 at 02:56, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 6/06/2015 11:13 AM, pmailkeey . wrote: On 5 June 2015 at 06:01, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 4:14 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Don't confuse searching for an object with how they are sorted/labeled/and represented - nor forget about the inflexibility in OSM/-carto to get them represented differently. (Take-out bag?) Or support regional renderings (buddhist shrines do not use the buddhist wheel in Japan, but thats what they get) You might know the French made their own rendering of OpenStreetMap data. They have a baguette for a bakery instead of the bagel icon. They also have decicated icons for their railway stations, mail offices, etc. It would be a good thing when e.g. the Japanese community would set up their own server, with focus on what they find important and with typical icons for their culture. When it would appear on osm.org as an alternative layer that would even be greater. regards I have absolutely no objection to locals using their own language names for things but having different icons is surely not a benefit ? It is to the locals. e.g. They may not see 'fast food' as a hamburger! I don't recognise 'fast food' in any case ! Perhaps an image of a cheetah or peregrine falcon would be more appropriate ? I'm not sure all 'fast food' outlets produce food particularly quickly - but that's beside the point. I suspect a cup of coffee symbol is pretty universal globally for a café / coffee shop - and OSM should be aiming for as globally acceptable icons as possible. I can just see then the icon globally agreed and a colour debate going on into the next century ! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
On 6 June 2015 at 03:33, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: All the double Ls are disappearing. Traveling is a common spelling now. Google traveling vs travelling. My spell checker marks the double L version as misspelled. surely you mean misspeled ??? The one that really gets me is 'Americanization' - the use of ZED rather than 'S' which is fair comment as the s is pronounced more like a z. A good example being 'prezident'. I have come across the 'simplified speling society' which had hopes of standardizing speling in a gud way. l8rz ! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 5 June 2015 at 12:36, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 05.06.2015 um 11:33 schrieb David Fisher djfishe...@gmail.com: As for landuse=residential -- I agree that we could probably do without it. But it does add to the readability of the map, especially at low zoom levels, as it enables you to see at a glance where places are and how big they are. residential landuse is often seen as default, it is often used to mark the built up area rather than just the residential areas (especially in villages). We should encourage place polygons for this and restrict the use of residential landuse to residential areas. It would help a LOT if they were rendered on the standard map ! WHY do we have this agony of stuff not being rendered ? Here's a map of the world. We've not marked on any places as we feel it would be too confusing. What's the flipping point. Flog the renderers I say. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model
On 6 June 2015 at 03:09, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: On 6/6/15 02:51 , pmailkeey . wrote: shop=photon - where n is a number on a scale to indicate the range of products e.g. : photo1 - basic point n shoot cameras photo5 - cameras, lenses, film, printing/developing service, knowledgeable advice photo9 - would include dark-room equipment, enlargers, range of photo-quality digital printers (to buy) digital photo suite - inc. computer and also illegal batteries for obsolete cameras ! Honestly I don't even know what to say about 99% of your tagging suggestions... Please don't let that worry you. shop=cake1 may have a much smaller range of cakes than shop=cake7 but the quality might be a lot better. The only thing I can say about that is adding another number: shop=cake19 - which has a very poor choice of really excellent cakes or shop=cake73 which sells a much greater variety of mediocre quality cakes. However, do avoid shop=cake80 which has an excellent selection of toxic cakes and shop=cake09 which was an excellent shop when it used to be open. ;) -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] residential granularity / was Re: OSM is ... right ...
On 5 June 2015 at 13:20, Tom Pfeifer t.pfei...@computer.org wrote: Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2015-06-05 13:36: Am 05.06.2015 um 11:33 schrieb David Fisher djfishe...@gmail.com: As for landuse=residential -- I agree that we could probably do without it. But it does add to the readability of the map, especially at low zoom levels, as it enables you to see at a glance where places are and how big they are. residential landuse is often seen as default, it is often used to mark the built up area rather than just the residential areas (especially in villages). We should encourage place polygons for this and restrict the use of residential landuse to residential areas. +1. Drawing a residential around a village was the early attempt with low-res aerial images. With the level of detail you get from both 20cm imagery and open-data property boundaries, my preferred level of granularity is up to a block, i.e. the landuse surrounded by residential roads (but not glued to them). This easily allows to draw complementary landuse, such as retail/commercial/religious/green areas without the need for multipolygons. As a first approach when splitting larger landuse, I typically split at secondary/tertiary roads. tom I'm doing it - using =residential for settlement. Of course, =settlement (or =place) would be better for this than =residential. Residential in any case is somewhat vague. People do reside at work as well as home. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Data metamodels
and there are times when a complete fresh start is a better foundation. I believe OSM needs to do the latter making use of all the known issues with the current OSM. On conclusion of a NEW OSM, that will then need 'selling' to the existing OSM and an agreement reached as to whether that transfer happens. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 5 June 2015 at 10:33, David Fisher djfishe...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 12:33 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: The issue with the 'oneway' key is that the key itself contains 'data' relating to the value. Oneway without a value would imply =yes whereas building without a value (or =yes) would give data independent of the value, IYSWIM building= hospital= The latter describes the building without the need for a value. I note your TIAL v CE above. Why do we need to know what the landuse is in any case ? I do see what you mean. I think the difference is that building = x in some sense defines the presence of the object, as does highway = x on a way. So, if building = x is not set (presumably on a circular way), or if highway = x is not set (presumably on a linear way), then those ways are just collections of nodes, nothing more. But oneway = x defines a *characteristic* of a way. A way must fundamentally *be* something (e.g. a building or a highway), but it may nor may not have any number of characteristics which don't alter that fundamental *being*. The only sensible way to deal with *characteristics* (other than insisting that every way has hundreds of tags) is to assume defaults. The problem with oneway is the key name - it's 3 letters too long: way=1 way=2 - maybe ways=1, ways=2. As for landuse=residential -- I agree that we could probably do without it. But it does add to the readability of the map, especially at low zoom levels, as it enables you to see at a glance where places are and how big they are. Again, the issue is the letters in the tag. landuse=place or landuse=settlement - landuse=town rather than landuse=residential, place=town - combine the two. Personally I'm an advocate of covering the majority of the map (not necessarily 100%) with some form of landuse area, e.g. residential, industrial, grass/meadow/parkland, farmland, etc. -- though I appreciate that not everyone shares that view. Anyone that doesn't share that view should be nowhere near OSM ! Sounds like a military cover-up to me ;) I do feel the default map not covered should be black though - to make the unmapped areas stand out :) -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model
On 5 June 2015 at 04:10, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: shop=model No documentation so added text + photo to its wiki page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmodel added link on the shop= wiki page. catwalk=no ;) -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model
On 5 June 2015 at 13:09, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: 'My' definition is broad, like a shop=supermarket .. they don't all have the same things. The one I have to tag is https://hobbyco.com.au Sells rc models, train, car, aeroplane, boat, ship ... kits or ready made, you name it they do it... Does it sell wool for those with a hobby of knitting ? Depends on how much detail 'we' want ... If shop=photo includes frames, cameras .. why not shop=model to include all models? :-\ http://www.modulor.de https://hobbyco.com.au/product-taxonomy/balsa-metal-polystyrene Same shop as above... There are also workshops specialized in architectural models. That to me is a craft .. like a professional photographer. I would generally dispute the tag shop=model because of its ambiguity and would prefer something like those you cited above (model_railway, model_aviation etc) In which case https://hobbyco.com.au would have 11+ tags? One each for car, boat, ship, railway, aeroplane ... I suppose military vehicles and motorcycles and trucks and farm machinery will be combined with car... or do you want those separated too? then one for each type of rc ... if rc stands for remote control .. if it stands for radio control then 'we'll' have to add wire control, infra-red control ... Way too many variations? ship = boat - so that's one less tag ;) rc to me is wireless control - so may include IR - particularly if omnidirectional. Other control systems are available. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model
On 5 June 2015 at 09:45, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-06-05 5:10 GMT+02:00 Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: Shop=photo changed to remove frames and framing from it. Reason.. there is a documented shop=frame so if the shop=photo does frames then it should be tagged shop=photo; frame I have included that information on the wiki page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dphoto I have reverted this edit. Frames are part of the definition of this shop type at least since 2011, you cannot change definitions of tags without discussing and retagging first, or you will create inconsistencies (the map not matching the definition). Multivalues are generally disputed and seen as problematic, read here for more information: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Semi-colon_value_separator http://blog.jochentopf.com/2013-09-23-semicolons-in-osm-tags.html http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Value_separator When will the multi values problem be fixed ? What if the value is a range ? Is that a problem too ? 1;2;3;4;5 or is 1-5 preferred in a contiguous case ? Which order should values be listed? major to minor or minor to major ? building:color=red,white,blue,pink_dots building:material=brick,masonry,wood,steel,glass,plastic,rubber -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
On 5 June 2015 at 04:29, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: Most of the languages used by europeans are at least parseable - we can tell the difference between the names between Italian or german towns - even if we can’t read them, because we can at least recognize the letters. But with a character based language - there are 1000 Kanji needed just to converse as a Japanese middle school student. The place names are very difficult sometimes - and pull from a dictionary of over 20,000 characters. 前橋 / 桐生 / 高崎 / 伊勢崎 / 太田 / 大間々 = Maebahi / Kiryu / Takasaki / Isesaki / Ota / Omama There is also an assumption that the people living in Japan can read Japanese - which is also false. it takes a decade or two of practice to read the Kanji correctly, so the 500,000 foreigners living in Japan rely on English labels when traveling out of their region - which is when you would especially need a map - which is why there are English labels on everything here IRL already. Javbw There are two ls in travelling. Sorry, just couldn't resist, considering the topic :) -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
On 5 June 2015 at 06:01, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 4:14 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Don't confuse searching for an object with how they are sorted/labeled/and represented - nor forget about the inflexibility in OSM/-carto to get them represented differently. (Take-out bag?) Or support regional renderings (buddhist shrines do not use the buddhist wheel in Japan, but thats what they get) You might know the French made their own rendering of OpenStreetMap data. They have a baguette for a bakery instead of the bagel icon. They also have decicated icons for their railway stations, mail offices, etc. It would be a good thing when e.g. the Japanese community would set up their own server, with focus on what they find important and with typical icons for their culture. When it would appear on osm.org as an alternative layer that would even be greater. regards I have absolutely no objection to locals using their own language names for things but having different icons is surely not a benefit ? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model
On 5 June 2015 at 13:20, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: What if the shop sells both photo gear and frames? frames (mounts) are 'photo gear' shop=photon - where n is a number on a scale to indicate the range of products e.g. : photo1 - basic point n shoot cameras photo5 - cameras, lenses, film, printing/developing service, knowledgeable advice photo9 - would include dark-room equipment, enlargers, range of photo-quality digital printers (to buy) digital photo suite - inc. computer and also illegal batteries for obsolete cameras ! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model
On 5 June 2015 at 09:20, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/06/2015 2:02 PM, John Willis wrote: Or will that start another Holy War? Bring your beliefs to the OSM. Does OSM recognise the Islamic State ? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess
On 5 June 2015 at 00:08, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/06/2015 1:08 AM, pmailkeey . wrote: Are the world of random renderers going to look for junction=roundabout and make the same oneway assumption ? Would it not be better for 'junction=roundabout' to cause a mechanical edit by adding the oneway tag - so that rather than saying =no, the tag could simply be removed ? IIRC there are a few .. very few .. roundabouts that are two way ! Depends on your imagination - is a ring-road a roundabout ! Still I guess all routers should recognise roundabouts. However, does junction=roundabout apply to mini roundabouts ? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
On 4 June 2015 at 15:20, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: I have no objection to users tagging in their local language. I also have no objection to those users also using tags in a language that has been agreed upon for use in an international context, or to others subsequently adding tags for other languages. Do you feel that maps for any given area should only be available to those fluent in the local language or languages? The best way to learn new languages is to use them. As an English speaker, I hate English variants of names in other countries - at least where a very similar character set is used. If every time Tokyo was mentioned it was shown in Japanese characters, it wouldn't take long for that to be universally recognised. It's only because we're too lazy that it's not happened already. Even my unavailable website contains 'gobledegook: [image: Inline images 1] 打電話時，您的通話將用英語回答。同時通過你的電話上，請耐心等待。 -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
On 4 June 2015 at 23:40, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: In Japan, every single road sign - hundreds of thousands - is in Japanese and English. That sign 40km up in the mountains, where no tourist would drive on a rural tertiary road - English is there. Every single exit sign on the motorway system is in Japanese and English. Train stations are signed are in Japanese Kanji, the phonetic alphabet Hiragana, and English - because even Japanese tourists may not know how to read name Kanji of unfamiliar places. Because of the prevalence of English on signs, English Speaking Mappers would tag things with name=日本語 (English) + name:ja=日本語 + name:en=English. Having the english in parens was deemed to be a bad thing, but because it is still common on the map, new mappers add it back on to name tags (as i did when i first started). Mappers do this because: - OSM's font sizes and strokes are optimized for Roman scripts (and ones of similar characters) the intricate Kanji are difficult to read, but the English in parens is very easy to read. - OSM doesn't support multi-language labels. Someone commented that Japanese people wouldn't appreciate English on the map, but in real life, Japan is slathered in English because of the total incomprehensibility of Kanji for any visitor (and almost all place names are very difficult kanji) , along with English being Japan's national hobby. That's very interesting John - it must be difficult for Japan to balance its own language with something more easily comprehended. It is perhaps a useful indication of the problems OSM faces with historic ways changing to be more accommodating. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
On 5 June 2015 at 00:54, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 4:30 PM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: OSM needs to provide for objects that fall under more than one category, whether it is done by allowing multiple tags with the same key, using semicolon-delimited values, or some other means. One often-quoted expression is that OSM needs to show the ground truth, and it is frequently the ground truth that objects fit into more than one category. Yeah. It's ridiculous. I was surveying a week ago and there was a shop that sells coffee AND tea. So what then? There's shop=coffee, and shop=tea. Whoever invented these tags wasn't a far-sighted person. Or a shop that sells both doors and windows (maybe even floors - there were a few of them). The problem with current tagging system lies in its **unsustainability**. It relies on people inventing new tags ad-hoc if a POI doesn't fit. And then? Most likely it won't be recognized by software in foreseeable future ie. unlike it gains traction. Do you see the nonsense of this? Michał Shop=refreshments - or is it an amenity ! Can you buy tea in a coffee shop ? Can you buy coffee in a tea shop ? Cake anyone ? How about a sandwich/sub/baguette Or does one have to go to a café ? Shop=refreshments speciality=coffee(tea, no, sandwiches) Shop=refreshments name=coffee2 speciality=houses And no, that's not a joke ! Just a twist on an estate agent with a small café -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
On 4 June 2015 at 13:35, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 04.06.2015 um 02:04 schrieb pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com: shop=photographic 16 uses globally shop=optical instruments not used Shop=image_recording not used film processing ? not used You continue to invent new tags rather than referring to those that are actually used. Please do not, when there is a tag in well established use there is no point in creating competing alternatives at the same level of specificity There was a discussion about tagging 'camera shops'. I merely suggested alternatives. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 5 June 2015 at 00:13, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: For me it stands for 1 or 2 persons standing there you can get directions from. All you need to do is ask. It might be unknown when they're there :-) Anyway, for all its flaws the tagging system mostly works, don't fix it if it isn't (completely) broken. Cheers, Jo The issue was renderers looking only at the key and assuming the value - creating misinformation. If that can be avoided, all the better! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
On 4 June 2015 at 01:30, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Too much detail .. there is a balance! shop=fork shop=spoon shop=table_knife shop=cleaver shop=M10_nut shop=m10_bolt shop=M10_screw Where does the balance occur for OSM? OSM:balance=no. And that's because different people like a different level of detail. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 4 June 2015 at 14:49, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: OK, next option is directions=1 (way) directions=2 directions=unknown. That way, the key has no built-in value itself forcing the value to be read to have any, well, value ! And someone reading that tag will have no idea what it stands for. Maybe those are different exits? Does it has something to do with lanes? Oneway makes it very easy for every mapper to see the tag and know what it means. Another benefit is it's very simple english word. ___ I agree 'directions' isn't a good alternative, it was merely used for illustrative purposes. oneway needs to be the value, not the key. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess
On 4 June 2015 at 16:53, AYTOUN RALPH ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com wrote: The oneway=yes, oneway=no conundrum.. put yourself in the position where you are looking at a road ahead of you. It is only wide enough for one vehicle but has passing bays along it's length. It is not wide enough to be a conventional twoway road so can it be tagged twoway? That would give the impression that cars can progress along it in opposite directions at the same timethat would be incorrect. But neither direction has the right of way and it is up to driver discretion and politeness as to who will reverse back to the passing bay. So oneway=no but twoway is not necessary yes. As is the case of a narrow bridge where traffic from one side has to give way to traffic from the other side because the bridge is only wide enough for one vehicle so is it a single lane twoway or single lane oneway=no. You cannot indicate that cars can go in both directions at the same time so it is a oneway in both directions. So oneway=no would indicate that adequately I know.. it sounded confusing when I was trying to write it so if it sounds weird it probably is... but it does exist. Just how to tag it without using oneway=no Breaking into new ground there. I don't know OSM's position on this issue - how about twoway=no* and* oneway=no ? showing the road is not one way only but does not permit two way traffic flow at the same time ? I think lane=1 and no mention of oneway is preferred. I can't go far without using such roads. OSM likes to rate them as trunk roads and I think this sucks really badly - as for one thing, it gives no clues to how bad the road is. There are places where sidewalks are non-existent so you get two-way roads with lanes=2 shared use of pedestrians and 44T trucks. It's why jaywalking is not an offence in the UK. Few roads are prohibited to pedestrians. If The Queen was driving along a narrow road and a pedestrian chose to walk down the middle of the road so the Queen couldn't pass, there's no traffic legislation to move the ped out of the way. Not even sure if there's any legislation to deal with this - as long as the ped makes reasonable progress. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 4 June 2015 at 10:46, David Fisher djfishe...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/06/15 00:48, pmailkeey . wrote: A value of residential here seems to need a key to identify whether it relates to a building or landuse. However, you suggest building=residential as possibly being redundant. In fact, I'd turn this on its head and make landuse=residential (with the exception of moles) redundant. The only residential landuse is directly under a building but by using landuse=residential, such areas cover gardens and highways - which are clearly not residences. The tag is landuse = residenTIAL, not landuse = residenCE. In other words, as Lester Caine says, it demarcates a residential zone, i.e. an area containing (mostly) homes plus associated infrastructure such as parks, gardens etc, as opposed to an area of shops, offices, industry, farmland, or whatever else. I agree with some of your frustrations about the project, but I think you sometimes jump to negative conclusions too quickly. landuse=residential is clearly useful, and equally I don't see that directions=xx is any improvement on oneway=xx. Pick your battles! (e.g. amenity I agree is a right mess.) LOL ! The issue with the 'oneway' key is that the key itself contains 'data' relating to the value. Oneway without a value would imply =yes whereas building without a value (or =yes) would give data independent of the value, IYSWIM building= hospital= The latter describes the building without the need for a value. I note your TIAL v CE above. Why do we need to know what the landuse is in any case ? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 29 May 2015 at 14:16, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: This falls flat in areas where the postal service ignores the ground truth and invents their own addresses (similarly: postal ZIPs versus census ZIPs). Rural routes are just one example of this. I'd be more willing to say What address would 911 use? or What does the county cadastre list it as? These are very likely to be the same. ___ 911 ! - Reminds me of a time I reported a vehicle fire in Avenue Road, Nechells - only to be told they didn't have an Avenue Road in Nechells but one in Aston - it's the same street, different ends. Of course the fire engine went all the way to Aston then drove back to Nechells to deal with the fire. Sensible route https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=mapquest_carroute=52.4630%2C-1.8840%3B52.4934%2C-1.8779#map=14/52.4788/-1.8733 Route taken https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=mapquest_carroute=52.46297%2C-1.88403%3B52.49658%2C-1.88523#map=14/52.4804/-1.8823 -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 4 June 2015 at 08:28, AYTOUN RALPH ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com wrote: highway=road is where you cannot determine anything other than it is some link between features. Then you have not been trying to find routes between villages in Africa or Nepal during a HOT Activation where the unsurfaced feature you are seeing could be anything from a path to a track to a tertiary road about the width of a single lane or less and then again it could also be a dry watercourse. The rescue and humanitarian teams on the ground need maps as soon as humanly possible and putting highway=road for all unknown classifications is something that is easy for all volunteer mappers to understand and can be recalled from that area and verified later. But at least there is something tentative on the map for aid teams to attempt to get to the next small village if it is at all possible. And no...it is not possible to count the lanes on a sand track in the middle of the bush... but that may well be the tertiary link in that area and becomes an impassable muddy quagmire in the rainy season with small deviations off into the bush where vehicles have tried to find a temporary route around the mud trap. I'm not a fan at all of non-physical road descriptions like primary, tertiary etc. All they seem to do is add colour to the map which has little significance. It'd be more use if the highway colour related to physical facts - like width, depth of mud etc. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess
On 3 June 2015 at 07:00, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: On 2015-06-03 02:04, pmailkeey . wrote: iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should not show oneway at all. I agree. In OSM if oneway=no then it's not oneway and the oneway tag should not appear at all. Here I don't agree. The only time oneway should appear is in the case of oneway=yes - and the '=yes' is superfluous. Some roads are implied oneway. E.g. junction=roundabout and highway=motorway both imply that the road is one-way only. If for some reason the object in case is not oneway, a oneway=no tag is very much needed. I agree that in every case where oneway=yes is not implied, oneway=no is superfluous (in a network design way), but that does not make oneway=no superfluous. There is also the occurence of oneway=-1 in case someone reverses the direction of a way. What should be done when the only possibility for oneway is either set or unset and the direction gets reversed? Should reversing be disallowed? Should you get a warning oneway street can not be reversed? Maarten Are the world of random renderers going to look for junction=roundabout and make the same oneway assumption ? Would it not be better for 'junction=roundabout' to cause a mechanical edit by adding the oneway tag - so that rather than saying =no, the tag could simply be removed ? What reason is there for reversing the way - as presumably all direction-dependent tags have + / - options ? Leads to the question as to why make oneway an exception to this rule - it seems most logical to have oneway as the direction as indicated rather than against. Them's my thoughts ! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Enough is enough
On 3 June 2015 at 10:17, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: Mike, After our last exchange of messages I thought you were trying to fit in at least a bit. Since then I have watched your emails steadily descend into trolling and abuse. Time to either shut up (which I doubt you can) or leave before you're thrown out, which I know you're used to. OSM learned a hard lesson about trolls in the past and we're not as tolerant now. Carry on with abuse, bad-mouthing and extreme negativity and you will get banned. At first I thought that would be a shame, you needed a chance to fit in. Well you've had that chance and blown it. What is wrong with you ? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
On 4 June 2015 at 00:59, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Its been an uphill battle to get even the most basic (read: required) Japanese mapping conventions accepted. Traffic light rendering is still a big stinky pile of garbage. Kanji rendering is still really bad compared to Roman characters - both are being worked on by people better than me, but two down-voted proposals to get traffic light labeling/rendering fixed for SE asia shows where the priorities are for OSM/-carto. Javbw I see no reason why different 'cultures' cannot completely ignore 'standard' carto and tags and just do their own thing. If I was looking on Japanese OSM for a restaurant, I'd expect to not find a single one. If I was looking for レストラン then I'd expect to find many. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
On 3 June 2015 at 03:25, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I've added the tag shop=camera on a node .. reflecting ONE shop I have mapped. There are others that I can tag (when I get to them). They sell cameras, video or still, tripods, memory cards, filters etc etc. Any idea for a better tag? .. just fishing for ideas at this stage! I've placed it in the wiki shop 'electronics' section .. best fit. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:shop#Electronics shop=photographic shop=optical instruments Shop=image_recording film processing ? I think this is going to be another 'debatable' value as there is unlikely to be one perfect fit. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 3 June 2015 at 02:51, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: No tag Tag oneway tag twoway not an'equals' in sight and difficult to mistake twoway for oneway. I would say that's much worse both for mappers as well as consumers. Not even to mention documentation, because now you have two wiki pages which again is always a good source for errors. As a mapper I now have to check for both tags, there can be contradictions, QA Tools can't just check one value etc. For consumers the same. They now have to check two keys instead of one. And then this isn't the only case. Every yes/no would then be like that which would be a nightmare, because you will 2x the amount of tags, wiki pages and everything else that has to be kep up to date. No to mention that is simple doesn't work if it's not just 2 pairs like bus=yes/no... are you going to use no_bus=yes instead? __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 OK, next option is directions=1 (way) directions=2 directions=unknown. That way, the key has no built-in value itself forcing the value to be read to have any, well, value ! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Enough is enough
On 4 June 2015 at 00:09, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/06/2015 8:17 AM, pmailkeey . wrote: On 3 June 2015 at 10:17, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: Mike, Deleted. What is wrong with you ? That appears to be a personal private message addressed to you Mike. I deplore broadcasting it on on public forum unless you have permission to do so from the author. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Anyone being attacked by others has got to have a right to inform of the attack as otherwise OSM has a state of lawlessness. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should not show oneway at all. In OSM if oneway=no then it's not oneway and the oneway tag should not appear at all. The only time oneway should appear is in the case of oneway=yes - and the '=yes' is superfluous. OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. Similarly are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'. Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what categor(ies) an object fits in A fountain is a fountain. It does not matter if it is - an amenity - man made - natural water (???!!) etc. Such categorization is semi-ambiguous; people think differently and are happy to categorize differently - and more - argue over categories. OSM is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but sadly lacking a great leader. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 3 June 2015 at 01:23, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: MOST use OSM. 90% will be out there adding things. Only a few join here to add tags, and fewer still try to improve the structure. That is quite possibly one of the big issues with it. And TBH, it's such a shame. More regulated activity in the very early days and less random input. Having said that, it's quite possibly the first random input project ever ! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 3 June 2015 at 01:28, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: The reason for tag/value pairs such as oneway=no is that the absence of a oneway tag can mean either that it is unknown whether a given way is one-way or not, or that it is definitely known to be not be one-way. Using one-way=no states that it is definitely known not to be one-way. No tag Tag oneway tag twoway not an'equals' in sight and difficult to mistake twoway for oneway. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
On 3 June 2015 at 01:37, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: Hi Mike, Please propose an alternative. I see an awful lot of good in OSM and I think it's a great project. I've had it agreed with another about it being such a mess - but the fact it's such a worthwhile project it's worth battling on with it - even if, sadly, others have succumbed to the nightmares around every corner. An alternative would be wrong, it is this that needs fixing and it needs a lot of 'tricky' effort to see the good from the not so good. It's like one team at both ends of a thick 'tug of war' rope, not really sure which way to pull for the best whilst each has in their hand only a mere strand to that rope. I think everything is overwhelmed yet the whole thing is clearly in its infancy - with diseases, viruses and god-knows what being thrown at it at all times from all angles. The freedom to make up any tags is brilliant while likely being one of the biggest problems - that not simply throws simple problems but really complex multi-dimensional ones with 'language' issues for one thing, the fact OSM is secretly 2 maps (at least!!) in one where in the main the two are compatible and other places where clearly they're not. Computers frequently come up with an answer. OSM rarely does; likely many answers or none at all. Digital, analogue, fuzzy logic all put into a blender and whizzed for a few seconds - and each time this is tried a different result is found. Consistently inconsistent. I think in the end it will work - but the effort required to get there will be far greater than the sum of its parts. Take one aspect - quality - there's the whole gamut from true to false - anyone can't assume anything about OSM data - and if different people around the world wrote a report on it, none of the resulting reports would agree ! I can't produce some magic answer without some agreement :) -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=works
On 31 May 2015 at 12:09, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: W dniu 31.05.2015 10:25, Martin Koppenhoefer napisał(a): recently there is a lot of discussion from newbies(?) here, that seem to propose new tags and tagging schemes for stuff that is already discussed and agreed upon and in widespread use. Please, if you are not familiar with the tagging, look it up in the wiki or ask for help, but don't continue to propose tags as if we were starting to map just now. I am hardly a newbie =} and I can't speak for others, but I keep forgetting even the widely used tagging schemes, exactly because there's too much ambiguity and they don't make a clear system for me. It's enough for me to remember the proper names of different items, having to remember (or constantly check at Wiki...) what namespace they belong is even harder. It is so frustrating, that I rather try to propose more coherent (even if not standard) solutions than to play strictly this memory game. Just my 2 cents. It's got to 'work' for newbies as everyone will be a newbie at some time. I agree - it doesn't work for oldbies either - having to refer elsewhere for reminders is a sign something isn't right. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=works
I've recently found EV charging stations marked as 'gas stations'. Actually seems reasonable to me ! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=works
On 1 June 2015 at 13:18, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: Why do you need to specify amenity = yes or tourism = yes ? What do I learn from that ? Is this for the case that there are 2 reception desks on a property (thinking about a campsite here), where one is used by the tourist and the other for deliveries ? I still haven't figured out for myself whether top level keys bring a lot of benefits. I suppose they do for building or shop (see e.g. SK53 latest diary entry on shop statistics, which won't be possible with a top-level shop tag). But does it help for things amenity, leisure or tourism, which are really collections of totally different things ? Would they be better off without those top level tags ? regards m It's a good question. Highway ,building, barrier - seem 'data strong' but 'manmade', 'amenity' and the like are REALLY weak as they give no clue about the object that's of any value to anyone. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=works
On 1 June 2015 at 06:15, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: I'll agree that introducing the reception_desk key was/is problematic because of the choice of the top level tag. On the other hand I do not see why we couldn't tag some of them as amenity and others as tourism and have both documented. It's pretty easy for data consumers to support both. Making the top level tag surplus/irrelevant Take a look at e.g. historic places. They support all kind of combination for the same things (building=farm, historic=yes or just historic=farm). They process the data before putting it on the map, so those things appear the same for the users of that map. As I understood the power_sockets problem is that some want to generalize the power_socket concept. Do we always have to try to find the most general concept and add X number of subtags to say what we really want to say ? Or can we sometimes just live with the specialty object (charging place for cars). I think the use cases are important, when I'm looking for something to charge my car, I won't be looking for a socket where I can charge a computer, and vice versa. Two totally different use cases. In those situations I would accept a specialty tag for each of them. I know the world is not black and white and in many cases it will be harder to decide on a general tag with subtags or a specialty tag. regards m It's quite clear we're not sure what we're doing ;) -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=works
On 30 May 2015 at 02:01, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 30/05/2015 9:40 AM, pmailkeey . wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 13:06, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: W dniu 29.05.2015 13:47, pmailkeey . napisał(a): On 29 May 2015 at 12:42, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: W dniu 29.05.2015 13:34, John Willis napisał(a): I know there is a way to tag what the building as to what it was initially used for - but i don't think that is the proper way (afaik). So what do you think about building=church + amenity=museum then? I think we need some clear, general rules. Current system is horrible in this matter, but I'd like it to be at least a bit coherent. building=museum. A museum is no more an amenity than a house is. So why do we use building=church + amenity=place_of_worship? If we tag the building with its function (and not the shape), we already know that this is a place of worship. A 'church' should be building=place_of_worship - the building where the church congregates - if you want to be accurate about it. Quite a few churches meet in other buildings built for other purposes. But not all 'place_of_worship' are buildings. Not an issue. A church has a particular style, as does a mosque. Both are 'place_of_worship' but the buildings are different. Use of appropriate subtags - as is done ? If museums are not an amenity but building? Are all mappable 'museums' buildings? I don't know. building=museum attraction=museum (can be used for indoor or outdoor museums.) - To me the confusion arises out of mapping what is on the ground (e.g. buildings) compared to the function (e.g. 'place_of_worship'). Mapping is doing both. Shows there's a building and identifies its function. building=museum does both and is an good example of efficient tagging. (as opposed to building=yes + museum=yes) but building=museum + museum=industrial is less efficient but more informative. Perhaps that should be identified on the wiki .. with a similar prominence as the 'status' property? - man_made=works .. makes no sense as a tag as I don't know what to expect on the ground nor as a function. ... building=industrial is much better. Agreed. We're in a 'nightmare' of trying to create flexible tags and precision. OSM is a nightmare^5 it's difficult to see that issues are resolvable other than by unacceptable compromise. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=works
On 30 May 2015 at 18:20, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 30.05.2015 um 00:11 schrieb John Willis jo...@mac.com: Maybe you are just supposed to use building=church and shop=poodles for a church that was converted into a poodle shop - but i imagine that would be only if it was really really obvious that it was a church, not just by its shape, but by the presence of original fixtures and ornamental architecture - not just that it has a steeple on one side. there's also the other way round, more often I guess, a place of worship that is inside a secular building and occupying only part of it. The occupation may only be for a time - 2-3 hours per week and the same space may be used for other (meetings) purposes at other times. Are we getting to tagging a room_use table: room_use=multi sun:10:00-11:00=foobar_church Mon: 16:00 - 17:00=aerobics -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=works
On 30 May 2015 at 06:33, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: If museums are not an amenity but building? Are all mappable 'museums' buildings? I don't know. No, you're right, there are museums in parks. see e.g.[1] located here [2], which is unfortunately still mapped as a node. But the area of the museum stretches over the complete Middelheimpark and part of Nachtegalenpark regards m [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelheim_Open_Air_Sculpture_Museum [2] http://osm.org/go/0EpYTjZr?layers=Nm=node=94177190 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging I've just tweaked https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/315992250 by adding some tags -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dock=tidal
On 29 May 2015 at 09:18, Malcolm Herring malcolm.herr...@btinternet.com wrote: On 29/05/2015 08:41, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Why is this a property of the dock, rather than a property of the water body. A dock is a body of water. It may or may not be separated from a connecting river or sea by a lock or single gate. Is, then, a dry dock an empty body of water? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dock=tidal
On 29 May 2015 at 08:41, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Why is this a property of the dock, rather than a property of the water body. What's wrong with floating vs. fixed? Some docks are gated and some are not. Same gate could be used as per lock gate. Same function. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
On 29 May 2015 at 12:27, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: On May 29, 2015, at 7:35 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: There are no man made trees in the forest, they all grow naturally. Man can plant a natural tree - or it could self-seed. In osm there is a distinction between cultivated and constructed. We already do this will all other cultivated ground - and including forests into man_made does not follow existing tags that make more sense. A farm field and a planted cedar forest are both land cleared, altered, and prepared to grow a crop, Landuse=farm_land crop=sheep. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=works (was: Re: Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
On 29 May 2015 at 12:42, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: W dniu 29.05.2015 13:34, John Willis napisał(a): I know there is a way to tag what the building as to what it was initially used for - but i don't think that is the proper way (afaik). So what do you think about building=church + amenity=museum then? I think we need some clear, general rules. Current system is horrible in this matter, but I'd like it to be at least a bit coherent. building=museum. A museum is no more an amenity than a house is. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 29 May 2015 at 11:43, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: On 2015-05-29 11:58, pmailkeey . wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 07:34, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Only Royal Mail think Chepstow is in Gloucestershire, England. Normal people think it is in Monmouthshire, Wales. This is the correct postal address: 1 Bigstone Meadow Tutshill CHEPSTOW NP16 7JU And as expected, no mention of county or country - which RM just don't use. I'm not sure why you say RM thinks it's in Glocs since it's a Welsh PostCode. The house is in Gloucestershire. RM say it is in Chepstow, which is in Wales, but according to RM this bit of Chepstow is in Glocs. Geographically, Tutshill is not in Chepstow, it's near Chepstow. 1 Bigstone Meadow NP16 7JU would easily reach the correct destination - as would 1 NP16 7JU (by the way, I picked this address arbitrarily from the internet. I have friends in Tutshill (which is why I am aware of all the gory details here) but not at this address) My aunt lives in Norfolk. Her postcode is Peterborough, Cambridgeshire. Which just emphasises how confusing it all is. Peterborough is not in Cambridgeshire from an administrative perspective - it's a Unitary Authority, within the Ceremonial County of Cambridgeshire which lives on in people's minds and through the office of Lord Lieutenant. So is your aunt's house in Norfolk, Peterborough or Cambridgeshire? The answer is all of the above - it depends on your perspective. It's arguably in WISBECH (postTown) (Cambridgeshire.) But it isn't. Small village just outside Wisbech. Small village is spread out enough to be in two counties. For some strange reason, RM chose settlements rather than counties to determine postcodes. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
On 29 May 2015 at 03:06, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: On May 28, 2015, at 6:22 PM, AYTOUN RALPH ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com wrote: And with this argument for a hierarchical approach we are back to the start point of umbrella tags that cover all possibilities which is landuse=educational as a polygon encompassing the whole area and the whole range of educational facilities. using landuse=school excludes universities, colleges, etc and you would then need other tags landuse=university and landuse=college, which then makes the landuse tagging specific instead of general. If we look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:landuse the first sentence is correct Mainly used for describe the *primary use* of land by humans. so the hierarchical approach should then be something like landuse=agriculture... agriculture would then be sub categorised with farmland (worked land for crops), orchard (trees planted for their fruits), vineyard, pasture, etc. landuse=residential (could be divided into urban and rural which have totally different infrastructures) landuse=commercial landuse=industrial landuse=educational landuse=civic landuse=transport instead of the myriad of specifics that we now have like landuse=peat_cutting and landuse=salt_pondthese are all sub categories of the primary use of the land. I know this has diverted from the main topic here but I wanted to point out the overall usage to highlight how my suggestion fits into the overall picture. +1 There are advantages to certain separations (to make it easier on renders), but there are so many very specific land land uses, while whole categories don't have a single tag. A hierarchical system has room to accept new tags while keeping everyone on the same level of importance. The downside is when one group or culture sees a whole category in a different way - a primary road in Japan has a completely different meaning than the rest of OSM, for example. But I prefer the hierarchical system - a flat tag system has good points, but it's so hard to document and learn, and probably to keep renderer a up to date - as a minor change requires a whole new tag, instead of a new sub-tag value. I'm not aware renderers rely entirely on the key but use the value too - so highway=dual_carriageway wouldn't actually get rendered. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 29 May 2015 at 07:18, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: That's a circular definition. What is the actual difference between the two types of address, in your model? Only 1 type of address, just attached to a different type object. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 29 May 2015 at 10:56, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 11:33 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: Did you ever look at the example that I've send you ? (probably not because it doesn't fit in your idea of addresses) Probably ! The house numbers are used to identity flats, not the building. Now you're confusing 'house numbers' with flat numbers ! No, they are not flat numbers. see http://osm.org/go/0EpD1Xa_M?m=relation=3899303 They are just a continuation from the numbers you see to the north. Number 9 does not exist. There is no common number to refer to the building. Similarly in the Eduard Anseelestraat they just continue from the 89 to the east and are followed by the house with number 107 to the west. Sorry that the Belgian reality does not fit into your world model. I know of buildings where the flat numbers are continuations of house numbers. It's not a big deal for me. Actually, the one I'm thinking of are not flats but apartments. 2 storey apartments, 4 storey building. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
On 29 May 2015 at 03:27, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: On May 29, 2015, at 11:02 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: And that ties in nicely with my thoughts of removing the words and generating tags and values by symbols ! Mapping by emoji! Just put a hot dog symbol in the hot-dog stand! ^_^ Absolutely, yay :)) For getting data into the database from novice mappers - that might not be a bad idea - however the text description that would invariably be needed to explain the icons would lead to the same thing. SCREAM - the whole point is to get rid of language-dependent text !!! So we have a house shape for houses - and if that just happens to look like an igloo, then probably it is ! Oh what fun :) - so for teepees, they'd be the same icon as a camp_site but in building colour rather than 'blue'. And as long as there are very rigid definitions in the tags - then the icons won't fit the ground truth except in the countries of the people who created the tags. Which is true currently - as I find examples that are completely untaggable in the current system because of the insistence on a single or primary tag. Case in point: Video rental shops in Japan also rent music CDs and video games (and sometimes books/manga too). They also are a bookstore. And stationary and collectables shop. This media, goods, and rental shop (as they say on the outside) is a very common store type - there are many *chains* that offer this combination, equating to several thousand stores - but currently there is absolutely no tagging value to convey this properly. It is not primarily a rental shop with a few magazines, nor a stationary shop with a few books or DVDs. It is its own beast. We have a bakery - one wall has shelves containing general food items - canned veg, milk etc. but so limited as to not be convenience stores. Icon just needs the option of additional + sign - to indicate they offer other stuff on top of primary sales. Tsutaya, Geo, FamilyBook, and others are all big chains that do this. It is simply not a combination that is common in other parts of the world (AFAIK). And without some more hierarchy to handle new and multiple values, it will be impossible to tag, even with emoji. Any rule to limit to just one icon ? vehicle filling stations: black pump, green pump, red pump, gas tank. coiled air hose, water tap. Default filling station icon - hover over it and all the others appear ? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 29 May 2015 at 07:34, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Postcodes don't have addresses, but addresses can have postcodes. I say can have and not have as addresses can exist without postcodes, for example when the local authority has named the roads in a new estate but the postcodes have not been allocated yet. You need to be able to talk about addresses with the utility companies so they can connect all the wires and pipes correctly and set up their backoffice systems for the new customers. The postcode is often not known at that stage. Util cos have meter reference points and supply properties without addresses - including those with 'known' but not confirmed postcodes - based on existing addressed properties. Only Royal Mail think Chepstow is in Gloucestershire, England. Normal people think it is in Monmouthshire, Wales. This is the correct postal address: 1 Bigstone Meadow Tutshill CHEPSTOW NP16 7JU And as expected, no mention of county or country - which RM just don't use. I'm not sure why you say RM thinks it's in Glocs since it's a Welsh PostCode. (by the way, I picked this address arbitrarily from the internet. I have friends in Tutshill (which is why I am aware of all the gory details here) but not at this address) My aunt lives in Norfolk. Her postcode is Peterborough, Cambridgeshire. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
On 29 May 2015 at 07:36, Lauri Kytömaa lkyto...@gmail.com wrote: pmailkeey wrote: johnw wrote: Forest=natural ? isn’t that natural=wood? I don't know the difference between a wood and a forest! landuse=forest and natural=wood are a poor example for historical reasons, when some thought that natural=wood together with landuse=forest was redundant, when it's not: an area used for forestry can be without tree cover (after a full chop it takes anything from years to decades before the newly planted trees look and function like a wood/forest, yet the usage of the land is still growing wood for timber). That's why the keys of the tags are different, so that one can tag both/all of them. We can live with the tags as they are used and documented now, but they shouldn't be used as a good example for future tagging. There are no man made trees in the forest, they all grow naturally. Man can plant a natural tree - or it could self-seed. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Comms towers
On 29 May 2015 at 05:47, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: according to this wiki page there is a difference between man_made=communications_tower and man_made=tower tower:type=communications and then there is also man_made=mast tower:type=communications pretty easy to understand :-) Mast - pole with guy-wires. Tower - free-standing with wider base usually with several aerials/dishes Mast without guy-wires = pole. Pole with only one guy-wire = pole. Pole without a pole = pole. Glad we got that sorted. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 29 May 2015 at 06:14, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 2:39 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: Addresses are used to identify buildings. Not all buildings need to be identified. Did you ever look at the example that I've send you ? (probably not because it doesn't fit in your idea of addresses) Probably ! The house numbers are used to identity flats, not the building. Now you're confusing 'house numbers' with flat numbers ! 8 different house numbers, 4 on the ground floor, 4 on the first. I don't remember where the mailboxes are located, they are probably grouped somewhere on the ground floor so the mailman does not have to take the stairs. But someone delivering a package to the front door might want to know that they have to take the stair and then follow the corridor to the Xth door. Use the query feature here http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.49451mlon=-1.87597#map=19/52.49451/-1.87597 for an explanation. As many people have pointed out, addresses are used for many different things (mailboxes, entrances, buildings, rooms within building (e.g. Suite), parcels). But you keep on insisting on your view: address == building. But then at a certain moment you said that an address could go on a node and on a building. And when someone asks you to explain that, you start throwing back questions without explaining what you meant. So please sit back, relax and accept that not everyone shares your view. Addresses will be mapped as nodes, on buildings and as interpolation lines. This is OSM, this is accepted and the data consumers can (or have to) live with that. Also consider this http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=54.21007mlon=-3.27043#map=19/54.21007/-3.27043 scenario where the part-building has the address and the entrances have further detail. have a nice Friday So far so good. Off to chemist for 2 lots of pain killers and hospital for getting my back xrayed. I may ask someone if they'd like a hand to build submarines - wondering about cracking a joke re all their latest boats have sunk ! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=works
On 29 May 2015 at 13:06, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: W dniu 29.05.2015 13:47, pmailkeey . napisał(a): On 29 May 2015 at 12:42, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: W dniu 29.05.2015 13:34, John Willis napisał(a): I know there is a way to tag what the building as to what it was initially used for - but i don't think that is the proper way (afaik). So what do you think about building=church + amenity=museum then? I think we need some clear, general rules. Current system is horrible in this matter, but I'd like it to be at least a bit coherent. building=museum. A museum is no more an amenity than a house is. So why do we use building=church + amenity=place_of_worship? If we tag the building with its function (and not the shape), we already know that this is a place of worship. A 'church' should be building=place_of_worship - the building where the church congregates - if you want to be accurate about it. Quite a few churches meet in other buildings built for other purposes. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=works
On 29 May 2015 at 15:34, Arch Arch 7h3.a...@gmail.com wrote: There do exist church buildings which are no longer in use as place of worships. Those can be tagged with building=church without amenity=place_of_worship See: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dplace_of_worship#Architectural_style_of_buildings_for_worshipping I'm not convinced old churches should be tagged as 'church' - not even if the niteclub is called The Church ! If we tag buildings for their architectural style, we'd end up with things like building=gherkin, building=tower, building=statue_of_liberty, building=igloo, building=tent. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dock=tidal
Dock=gated -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Comms towers
What's with Man_made=communications_tower tower:type=communications Does one tag towers with both ? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 28 May 2015 at 08:24, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Mike, what's a node address and what's an area address (without resorting to circular definitions)? I have never seen a flag for this in any of the many address databases I have worked with. Address on a node and address on an area ! ??? On 2015-05-28 02:04, pmailkeey . wrote: On 28 May 2015 at 00:39, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:22 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: In the US where there are mailboxes with the little flags on them it seems correct to put the address on the node for that box. Common sense really. Mike, you keep on insisting that addresses should always be put on an area and never on a node. Now here you say it's common sense and correct to put it on a node (that represents the mailbox). What is your position really? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Quite simply area addresses should be on the area and not a node and addresses for a node should be on the node. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] To mark as covered, or to not mark as covered?
I've seen 'covered' being used (once!) and my opinion is this: First example under railway bridge, now car park - use tunnel, not 'covered'. Anywhere within buildings, use tunnel=building_passage. The only real significant place 'covered' would seem most appropriate would be where a highway is covered where the cover is purely for the benefit of the highway - e.g. West Cornwall covered bridge. So basically, the cover follows the line of the highway and for no other reason than to cover it. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
On 29 May 2015 at 02:54, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: On May 28, 2015, at 4:52 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: while man_made covers technical structures and facilities (like factories, chimneys, flagpoles, lighthouses, silos, ...). If there is one big change I would like to make it would be to greatly reduce the scope of man_made=works. Most factories are buildings, So building=industrial (and so on for the office, etc) And landuse=industrial for the area the factory sits on. For the giant gas refineries which are a giant tangle of pipes and tubes and everything taking up huge amount of space without a specific building, man_made=works seems appropriate. Currently, building=industrial +landuse=industrial has usurped man_made=works completely. Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging I'm not sure a refinery would even be a 'works'. 'Industrial' seems fine to me. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 28 May 2015 at 09:49, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Addresses are just labels, with (in the general case) an N:M relation with areas. Addresses are not used to identify buildings, as that would imply that all buildings (even sheds and garages) would need their own address. Addresses are used to identify buildings. Not all buildings need to be identified. In multi-occupancy buildings (apartments, shared offices etc) each separately registered unit needs its own address (in order to ensure post etc is directed to the right party); the geometry of each unit can vary wildly, in three dimensions. A 1:1 relation between addresses and areas (actually volumes might be a better word here) is certainly very common, but not enough to cover the reality. The purpose is to get a person (postman or otherwise) to the right place. It might not be accurately mappable where the right place is and the person may have to use initiative at the 'general location' to find the right door or letterbox. International addressing in databases is an extremely complex area, which is caused to a large extent by people thinking they understand their own address (after all, everybody has one) No they don't ! (long list of examples intentionally omitted!) I've added mine at the bottom. and then expecting the rest of the world to follow the same model. The UK address model lives in a parallel universe compared to the administrative boundaries. It needs extra fields (locality for example) to disambiguate, when a Post Town has multiple roads with the same name. The UK has properties which don't have a number (just a name). Until recently it used counties which hadn't existed for years. All this because the addressing system is run by Royal Mail, purely for its own convenience in delivering mail, and there's nothing better. I pity some countries which don't have addresses, and have stuff delivered based on mileposts and landmarks. Maybe what3words[1] will catch on. How will we put that in OSM I wonder? Ireland still doesn't have postcodes by the way, despite working on it for the past million years. All they have at the moment is Loc8 [2] which is a private initiative, probably born out of frustration with the lack of progress by An Post. They are about to get Eircode[3] which looks incredibly complex for what it is. //colin [1] http://what3words.com/ [2] http://www.myloc8ion.com/ [3] http://www.eircode.ie/ Mike. 54.212404,-3.270514 https://maps.google.com/maps?f=qsource=s_qhl=engeocode=q=54.212404,-3.270514aq=sll=54.212154,-3.270836sspn=0.001441,0.004128vpsrc=6t=hg=54.212404,-3.270514ie=UTF8ll=54.212404,-3.270514spn=0.001441,0.004128z=19iwloc=A Earth Milky Way Universe 1 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
Do explain On 29 May 2015 at 01:39, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 5/28/15 8:26 PM, pmailkeey . wrote: Postcodes don't have addresses! Where Google points, given that postcode, for a geographic address Bigstone Meadow Tutshill Nr Chepstow Gloucestershire England ummm, i think you have quite a bit to learn about geocoding. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 29 May 2015 at 01:50, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 5/28/15 8:44 PM, pmailkeey . wrote: Do explain first problem - where google points do you have any idea how many things are wrong with that statement? the two big ones: 1) we must not depend on anything google does 2) google doesn't even reliably get it right so handwaving where google points is simply wrong. way wrong. richard 1) and 2) are irrelevant. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
On 28 May 2015 at 07:28, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: On May 16, 2015, at 10:29 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: Thanks for the post, John. Thanks for reading ^^ How about: Forest=natural ? isn’t that natural=wood? I don't know the difference between a wood and a forest! or forest=man_made ? [=plantation or somesuch term for a human-planted forest]. A forest is a man-altered area, so i believe “forest” already implies man-used. But it is not man_made (as a building is), as the forest is not a non-building structure. Is Amazon rain forest man-affected? landuse=school is, to the map, the same as area=school which is the same as Area is the name for a type of unit in the database (node, way, area) so that sounds confusing. so how about using land=school for your example. I think your 'confusion' is my 'simplification'. We're talking about an area - because that's what we're talking about and to mark that area, we use the 'area' function - no matter the eventual purpose of that area. school or perhaps school=primary school=secondary school=music When I have a facility which encompasses multiple buildings with different purposes (a music school , a computer school, a sports facility, etc) and that entire facility is considered a “school” with a singular name (FooBar university), there has to be some kind of *generic purpose-based tag* for the area. Area=school or Area=University. that is how I see landuse=* . You can reimagine it to have other names, or other tagging styles, but eventually you will lead yourself to purpose=education because if you go much narrower, the world is so varied that the 6 categories you need don’t quite line up with the 6 I need, and the 12 someone else needs - so to have a single catch all is much more flexible. Maybe we can agree on some age splits (Pre K-12 , higher) but if you start going deeper than that - what about combined primary-secondary? what about combined secondary-high? What about a facility that does K-12 all on the same campus? making 35 different tags is not helpful to get taggers tagging and renderers rendering. my fictional tag example landuse=school [currently amenity=school] school=k-12 k-12=secondary;high religion=buddhist denomination=honen Name=FooBar Buddhist Junior Senior High School secondary=3 high_school=3 vs land=honen_buddhist_secondary_high_school This basic hierarchical approach makes it easy to support new users (unless everything is abstracted away, which it is totally not) and Major things to be supported by renderers (which are really really conservative) so we get the best of all worlds for a large amount of things that can fit easily into some big catch-all category, and still have it refined by the subtags for further use . I've no issue with subtags - the main issue is the top-level tag lacking useful information. I've suggested area= instead of amenity= giving area=school, area=building - but then as an area is drawn, the name 'area' becomes unnecessary. school=grounds school=building or building=school grounds=school is perhaps better. The big point is what does 'landuse' (or 'natural') tell us that's new information landuse can be read as “purpose” Natural can be read as “existing in the world with little to no alteration by man. But how valuable is that to the map-reader ? ? bridge=natural would be a case where natural is giving information as it is not expected bridges to be natural. a natural bridge (like a rock crossing a chasm) sounds cool. Can you find a sports pitch that's not landuse ? there's no need to have landuse=sports_pitch. And to prove my point, OSM doesn't ! we have instead leisure=sports_pitch - but it's still landuse but not tagged as such. So now, it seems OSM tags landuse on its own whims, is inconsistent; is confusing I was about to say what sports_pitch isn't 'leisure' - and then thought: commercial=sports_pitch - e.g. professional football grounds A commercial sports facility would have a landuse encompassing all the pitches, parking lots, and other buildings (leisure=sports_center) that make up FooBar Sports Center. landuse=commercial (i think) name:foobar Sports Center sport=multi That sounds like a hybrid - a commercial enterprise providing leisure facilities. I could see there being a landuse=recreation or leisure, but we have chosen to define a lot of land uses by economic means (commercial, industrial, residential, agriculture, etc). This lack of completeness in landuse (there is no landuse=civic yet, I’m pushing for it) would help solve some issues, IMO. Very specific landuses (landuse=poodle_training_ground) sounds really bad to me. there are some which should have been sub-keys (like farmland+crop) but no one was looking that far ahead, such as landuse=farmland now instead of landuse=agriculture and agriculture=* would be better
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 28 May 2015 at 07:32, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: In the UK we have postal addresses which are for Royal Mail's convenience, not yours. Often your (correct) postal address suggests you are in a different town, and sometimes even a different country. What would you call the geographic address for NP16 7JU? The postal address is Chepstow. It's not even in Wales. Postcodes don't have addresses! Where Google points, given that postcode, for a geographic address Bigstone Meadow Tutshill Nr Chepstow Gloucestershire England -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 27 May 2015 at 08:07, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Martin et al., It might help to have some kind of paradigm here as I think our frames of reference may be divergent. If we don't have consensus about the question we will never agree about the answer except by coincidence, and that would be the worst situation of all. What are the use cases for an address? Is it as a routing target? A label or annotation for a building? or a property in a looser sense? Is it for the benefit of the postman? Or what? //colin In the UK we have postal addresses and geographic addresses. In the main they're the same but where there isn't a postal address, there's only the geographic address. There are cases where the postal address and geographic address are different - such as PO Box numbers where a firm at one address has their post delivered to another address. Address: geographic/routing (A description for finding a 'place' - a (geographic) location; the next 8 bits, a web page etc. Address: postal post delivery. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 28 May 2015 at 00:39, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 7:22 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: In the US where there are mailboxes with the little flags on them it seems correct to put the address on the node for that box. Common sense really. Mike, you keep on insisting that addresses should always be put on an area and never on a node. Now here you say it's common sense and correct to put it on a node (that represents the mailbox). What is your position really? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Quite simply area addresses should be on the area and not a node and addresses for a node should be on the node. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 27 May 2015 at 08:48, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 27.05.2015 um 09:38 schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org: Also, the address must be unique why? Otherwise high risk of computer crashing Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 27 May 2015 at 01:00, Ross i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: Your still missing the point. Depending on the country, state, area the address does not necessarily refer to the building. In Australia the address refers to the property ie the plot of ground that is defined by the cadastral plan. So those plots of ground may be 600 sq m or 1,000,000 hectares and may have zero, one or many buildings. Easiest way to plot these is on a node at the access point to the plot of ground. Building is the 'common' example. In cases where plots of land receive things then the plot area should have the address. If there are many buildings but only one address, where is the mail to be delivered ? Put the address on that building. In the US where there are mailboxes with the little flags on them it seems correct to put the address on the node for that box. Common sense really. As someone else pointed out a building may have multiple addresses particularly when it's on the corner of two streets. I live near a town of 1500 people. In the main part of the town there are 5 buildings that have two addresses. All of these have one address on the main street and one address on the side street. The reason is that there are two different entrances to two different businesses. So how are you going to tag that on the building? Around here, there are buildings with 30 addresses. Each building is subdivided into individual houses and each house has the address tagged to the area. One does the same with your case of smaller buildings and have the address of each on the building. Near me is a building split into flats - with 4 entrances. I've named the building on the area and then marked the entrances each labelled for the properties they serve. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas
On 26 May 2015 at 07:33, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 26/05/2015 3:23 PM, Marc Gemis wrote: based on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Animal On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 6:59 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: While the names are confusing, the concepts seem to be: 1) Hitching racks for temporarily restraining a dog. no tag yet Hitching rails .. not racks? none for horses yet .. so amenity=hitching_rail hitching_rail=horse, dog, The function is akin to car parking and bicycle parking. Sticking with that theme, we'd get dog parking and horse parking. A sign labelled 'dog park' tagged as dog parking has obvious links but the to tag a dog park sign with 'hitching rail' breaks the similarity - a similarity that would be language-independent on the basis that the 'park' part appears in both. It might be appropriate to go for: amenity=animal_parking dog_parking=yes horse_parking=no so that animal parking that accepts different sized animals can be tagged at one node with the use of subtags. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 26 May 2015 at 09:11, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 25.05.2015 um 17:53 schrieb pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com: CONGRATULATIONS ! You win the award for the best puzzle of the year! It appears to be a loose numbering system for identifying entrances rather than properties. that's what I told you initially, you said tagging a node would be wrong and I replied it depends on the region. In Italy it seems they really associate a number to (most) entrances. Even more crazy, I have seen a number of places (different towns/villages) where the existing, old numbering was changed (strike through of old, often stone engraved number and new number with paint or adhesive sticker). I cannot imagine any reason if not to deliberately create confusion ;-) Building addresses shouldn't be on nodes. Named entrances can be - on ent/exit nodes. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas
And more parking: trolley_parking (near supermarkets) pram_parking Umbrella coat And anything else we might need to park. Wheelchairs, mobility scooter, motorbikes... -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations
On 26 May 2015 at 18:32, Andrew Guertin andrew.guer...@uvm.edu wrote: On 05/23/2015 12:47 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote: In the meantime I have tagged those areas with amenity=charging_station until we resolve this question. By going against the documentation, you are breaking the data for consumers that follow the documentation. At the very least Osmand 2.0.4 shows any POIs tagged with amenity=charging_station along with gas stations when you look for filling stations in the menu. I strongly oppose breaking consumers like this just because the tag name seems similar. --Andrew So, you favour tagging for the renderer ? If it's a charging station it should be tagged as such and indicate what it will charge. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 27 May 2015 at 00:06, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Mike, you are missing the point... A building and an address are two different things. A building may have 0 to N addresses. An address may or may not refer to a building. The business rules to link the two concepts vary by country. An address is not usually a unique identifier of a building - it's for getting the post delivered to the right letter box. I don't think I'm missing the point. People have addresses and that usually relates to their dwelling - so it's correct to attach the address to the dwelling rather than a node of the dwelling. There is one building where I've placed a mailbox (private) on the building as it is not near the usual main entrance. The point is, the house number should go on the area, not the node and not both. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
The floor level *order* will be clear from the ele(vation) tag, won't it. Hence no need for a new tag of level_name. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
Using level = number would also mean you'd lose relative floor height information: Lifts (Elevators) Highest floor available Red Sky Lift – floor numbers correspond to the Main Building. 7 Blue Sky Lift – floor numbers correspond to the South Wing 10 or 11 North Wing 10 In the above example, one floor can be level 11, level 7 and level 10 depending in which part of the building you are. Clearly a simple numbering system doesn't indicate which floors are level with each other and only the ele tag would clarify this. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25 May 2015 at 13:55, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/05/2015, Michael Reichert naka...@gmx.net wrote: I oppose. Numeric level values can be used to display a building plan layer by layer where higher floors lay over lower floors. Most software which uses level=* at the moment expects that it is a numeric value. Example: https://youtu.be/qcB5CP-IkLg?t=17m12s If a building has named levels, you can still use numbers at OSM. (It's like our usage of layer=*) +1. There are two distinct needs : enabling software to sort levels for rendering and navigation purposes, and the need to show the textual name that humans expect. The level=* key is currently used for the fist case (otherwise you'd see a lot more text values in taginfo). Not necessarily as many buildings' floor names are numeric in nature. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25 May 2015 at 14:08, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/05/2015, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: The floor level *order* will be clear from the ele(vation) tag, won't it. No. Since when has the ele=* tag been used for floors in a building? What other tag do you propose to indicate vertical position then ? Why would we need another tag when ele fits this purpose? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 25 May 2015 at 09:14, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-05-23 1:56 GMT+02:00 pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com: have a look at these housenumbers, they're 5 and 7 for this side of the building (one big hotel), but the main address is from the main street (front of the buikding) and is different. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/attachments/20150520/465c45fc/attachment-0001.jpg I'm not even sure whether both of these are doors or just one need more info - Google streetview link? Here you are, please also have a look at the opposite side of the road, there is also a building with different housenumbers (because every entrance is assigned a housenumber there, even if it's not an actual entrance but a possible entrance (e.g. at some time in the past there was an entrance)). https://www.google.it/maps/@41.889945,12.498432,3a,75y,295.64h,97.03t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sFHbNr6r2HbfpCK-bhCoVRQ!2e0!6m1!1e1?hl=en Please also note that there aren't necessarily letterboxes, rather the opposite, there won't be a letterbox if it is a lateral entrance (or even window) which is not used as an entrance. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging CONGRATULATIONS ! You win the award for the best puzzle of the year! It appears to be a loose numbering system for identifying entrances rather than properties. On that street, 8 and 10 are the same property, it appears - but more interestingly, at the back of the hotel, there are about 4 entrances all numbered 2 and two entrances not numbered at all. What did you have in mind you wanted to do with those ? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25 May 2015 at 15:44, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: The ele tag specifically refers to the height above sea level. What we would want here is a height above ambient ground level. Overloading ele in this way would lead to untold confusion and be a recipe for disaster. //colin Also knowing the street elevation would give the clue as to which floor was 'ground level' - as would a highway linking internal routes to external. Ele would at least tie in with 3D mapping whereas positional info is lost with 'level=' -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas
We'll be moving on to 'dog parks' next. That's places to park your dog (outside) while you visit a shop, for instance. It seems they do this in Rome - for a start. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas
On 25 May 2015 at 19:32, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: In the USA, a dog park is an area of a public park, often enclosed by a fence, where you are allowed to play with your dog off-leash. In other sections of the park, or in an entire park if no section is designated as a dog park, you are likely to be cited and fined for letting your dog run free. On May 25, 2015 10:56:55 AM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: We'll be moving on to 'dog parks' next. That's places to park your dog (outside) while you visit a shop, for instance. It seems they do this in Rome - for a start. A couple of examples for dog parks (place to park your dog): http://static.turistipercaso.it/image/s/sardegna/sardegna_5yv6e.T0.jpg http://aprireunbar.com/wp-content/uploads/foto-73.jpg It's a good job we can use different icons ! P with a dog v a greened area with icon showing 2 dogs playing. Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations
On 24 May 2015 at 15:42, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: @Martin - I'm not aware of any different types of USB socket - are you referring to USB 2.0, and USB 3.0? If so, that can be handled by another tag, e.g. USB:version or USB:type. I can think of 5 types Standard flat Standard square +3 small standards - 'square', 'bent 'D'' 'flat'. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations
On 24 May 2015 at 18:43, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: The idea is to get this rendered on the map. My opt is for amenity=power_socket which is what people will be looking for. It will be impossible to have a different symbol to indicate every different type of outlet in the world. Then the next thing they will need to know is the type of socket so type=* (example ... plug_UK ; plug_EU ; USB123 ; USB_C) And it can continue on from there. But we don't tag for the map. No, we tag for the good of our health. The tag 'amenity' automatically indicates it is for public use and so should not be used to tag every private domestic plug in a home. Mh... no. It doesn't. Access=private would show it's not for the public. power_source=UK240VAC power_source=2barH2O-15mmBST -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations
On 24 May 2015 at 10:06, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 23.05.2015 um 20:08 schrieb pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com: On 23 May 2015 at 17:47, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: The Wiki article clearly teaches that the amenity=charging_station tag was designed with vehicles in mind. Well if it's a VEHICLE charging station, it should have said that. They didn't specify what changing it was in the name - so it's surely open for all charging stations. I tend to agree but it makes rendering more difficult, maybe we should make indeed a transition to vehicle_charging_station I'd have suggested that but the cynic in me state that by the time this becomes popular I wouldn't be surprised you won't be able to charge a Ford in a GM outlet ! (ok, my original thought was more car charging and other elec vehicle charging such as bikes or HGV !) -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
Any objection if I 'rewrite http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level ? It seems to have been written with the misconception that floor names are numbers when they're not. A rewrite: - Won't affect existing names that appear as numbers. - Will encourage mappers to use correct names for floors (as found in the building) rather than attempt to convert them to meaningless numbers. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Water featuers
On 24 May 2015 at 22:53, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 24.05.2015 um 14:36 schrieb John Willis jo...@mac.com: I always thought a cascade is a series of waterfalls connected together. I thought it was a word for a single waterfall as well... Only where the water hits other things on the way down causing the water to cascade. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25 May 2015 at 01:52, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, I object. level=* is an internal value. Its meaning is absolute, which is necessary because it is used worldwide. When the value is displayed, the displaying software should localise the result according to either the viewer's language, or viewer's location. Perhaps you are not aware that in some places what British people call ground floor is called first floor. However, it is still the same floor, so it's appropriate to tag it the same (level=0). The numbers are not meaningless. They are clearly defined in the wiki. OSM is for humans - humans need to understand it. Level with ref to buildings equates to 'floor'. Floors have names such as 4th Floor and often signed as 4. Software should not need to make a conversion as none is necessary - OSM 'level' should equate to the floor name as used by the building operators. I note you're going for floor 1 = level 0 - which is clearly silly. I am aware of the US/UK numbering differences - an ideal illustration for not having an 'internal' scheme but to simply apply the correct label for the floor for that locality. I don't see why the Americans would be expected to specify level 1 for the second floor - there's no logic to that. In your 'numeric' scheme, how do you deal with 'missing' floors ? (e.g. G,1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 ?) In 'my' naming scheme, there isn't a missing floor with that set of names. Are you expecting to do a local conversion for level 3 upwards ? Surely naming is simpler - no confusion and labelling matches what people find on the site. Which floor is 'ground floor' ? the lower one, the upper one or one in the middle ? Look at the following example building with 5 floors: L2 L1 L0 -- ground floor G1 G2 -- ground floor -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
On 25 May 2015 at 03:53, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: A person seeking something on level henry will not recognise OSM level numbers ... they want the name.. If OSM does not use names, but they are used within the wanted building .. then there will need to be a declared relationship between the two. So there needs to be a relation between the names used locally to the OSM level=number ? If OSM uses names then OSM will need a relationship between the names and which one is 'ground' and there respective order. It's highly likely that the street level floor would be named 'Ground' - so if software needs to know this, that would be a good starting point. It could also be worked out by which highway meets the street. Why would floor order be specifically required within OSM other than where they are related (e.g. stairs)? Why numerify a labelling system ? Floor 'numbers' have been obviously used for the convenience of the numerical symbols (like street address numbers - yet not all properties have a number some are named). Some floor labelling schemes are by colour code - and I've even come across animals used to identify a particular floor! (We parked on elephant level). So? A new tag to relate one to the other? level:name=1:henry ? the wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level#String_values has a mention of string values .. but NO real way of adding them in a usefull way.. nor is there any indication of how to use these tag on a map... as in rendering. For the given example above the indoor map should display the level name .. not the number .. And this could be used where the level numbering is not that used by OSM .. but using the level:name=0:1 could correctly display the correct local number wile retaining the OSM level system. Indoor .. a GPS will not be of much use .. so the 'indoor map' will need to be a good representation of what goes on. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations
On 23 May 2015 at 06:57, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: If you're mapping a duck, call it a duck not a creature=thing_with_feathers legs=2 quacking=yes. Surely a duck is an amenity ? After all, it enhances the 'park' experience. Bread_vending=no. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations
On 23 May 2015 at 17:47, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: The Wiki article clearly teaches that the amenity=charging_station tag was designed with vehicles in mind. Well if it's a VEHICLE charging station, it should have said that. They didn't specify what changing it was in the name - so it's surely open for all charging stations. And I reckon for those of you who expressed concern about rendering, that part of it isn't up to me, or us, and will be resolved later. The big question is whether to expand the use of the tag so it includes devices other than vehicles. The article mentions bicycles but doesn't go into detail about bicycle charging_stations except to say There are some different types of charging stations. E-Bikes e.g. can be charged at an domestic wall socket. To my mind, that opens the door to expanding the use of the tag. Asbolutely ! Also the notion of socket:type=USB or socket:USB=* (a number of sockets or yes) seems fine. The other keys mentioned in the Wiki entry can be used just as they are in many other similar situations: fee=* operator=* access=* voltage=* opening_hours=* These stations, or in the case of the Seattle airport, entire sections of seats, have domestic wall sockets offering a way to charge laptops as well as the USB output. The tag socket:nema_5_15=* denoting is bulky to say the least but if that's the established tag for the receptacles found in American homes, then it might work here too. What do 'standard Americans' call their sockets ? We shouldn't be using technical names on OSM unless that's the common name for them. Voltage is a useful bit of data. If we don't do it this way, clearly another amenity tag will be needed. I hate to start down that path because I know it will be difficult to achieve any consensus. In the meantime I have tagged those areas with amenity=charging_station until we resolve this question. Regards Dave -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Water featuers
On 23 May 2015 at 11:09, Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 03:54:57PM +0100, Andy Mabbett wrote: On 22 May 2015 at 15:29, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: I am uncomfortable with cascade - in several languages it means waterfall so there is considerable potential for confusion. I agree. A cascade is a waterfall in American English. Is that relevant ? ;) Is there really a problem with Americans relearning what words mean ? Actually, Merriam-Webster seems to have it right - even in American !: a small, steep waterfall; *especially* : one that is part of a series of waterfalls Although this points to an American cascades as being one part of an English cascade ! America uses 'waterfall' too - it seems 'cascade' is agreeable even if not realised! -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations
On 23 May 2015 at 00:19, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sitting in the Seattle airport trying to figure out how to tag areas that offer a power outlet and USB outlets for charging or powering computers and other devices. There are many of them here at SEA and they are important places for travelers to know about. I tagged a few of them with amenity=charging_station until I realized that those charging_stations are for vehicles. Ideas? Prexisting tags? Dave (Sleepless in Seattle) -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com A charging station is a place for charging something. With recent discussions on amenity, Why not use charging_station=USB charging_station=EV charging_station=110VAC charging_station=240VAC etc. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 22 May 2015 at 07:35, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 21.05.2015 um 23:53 schrieb pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com: Tag the building with street address and add an ent/exit node to mark the entrance. have a look at these housenumbers, they're 5 and 7 for this side of the building (one big hotel), but the main address is from the main street (front of the buikding) and is different. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/attachments/20150520/465c45fc/attachment-0001.jpg I'm not even sure whether both of these are doors or just one need more info - Google streetview link? Here in uk doors may not have a 'letterbox' aka point of delivery and as such, Royal Mail would not assign those as addresses. '5' and '7' may not be house numbers but key numbers or internal ref numbers - or 'private' access doors to 'facility rooms' allowing hirers independent access without using the main entrance. I suggest you leave them untagged until you know what they are to avoid putting erroneous info on the map. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=supplements = shop=dietary_supplements
On 22 May 2015 at 16:05, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Just found the proposal for shop=supplements. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/supplements On the talk page already a lot of people suggested using shop=nutrition_supplements instead. But looking at Wikipedia and google it seems like shop=dietary_supplements would be even more fitting. What do you think? __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 Is this the sort of thing 'health food' shops sell ? Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 21 May 2015 at 14:23, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 21.05.2015 um 01:51 schrieb pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com: We know that addr:housenumber http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr=* can be tagged on nodes http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses#How_to_map_addresses and that it's very convenient. But wrong. what/where do you refer to? Is it wrong where you are? Typically inferring from your own experience to every other possible place on earth will lead to _wrong_ conclusions Cheers Martin Wrong on OSM - to tag an area's data by using a node. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
On 21 May 2015 at 15:28, Ross i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: On 21/05/15 20:16, pmailkeey . wrote: On 21 May 2015 at 02:08, Ross i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: On 21/05/15 09:51, pmailkeey . wrote: On 20 May 2015 at 14:10, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, We know that addr:housenumber http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr=* can be tagged on nodes http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses#How_to_map_addresses and that it's very convenient. But wrong. Why? It's all very well that this may be you opinion but the wiki and accepted practice says otherwise. Address = building = area, not node. It's 'accepted' as a second best option for where a building hasn't been drawn. I find quite a lot of them and remove them by transferring the data to the buildings - sometimes there's a building and a loose node containing the same data! In those cases, a simple node deletion is required. Where is it accepted? On OSM - that's why they are there ! Australian addresses refer to the property only and a property may have several buildings. I can show you plenty of locations where there is no building but it still has an address, or the property is so large that the access from the street/road is 50km from the only building on the property and if you were routing to the address you'd never get there if the address was on the building. As someone else also pointed out, accepted practice in different countries varies. Open address data in Australia is point (node) data and specifies what type of address it is, eg Driveway frontage, Building Centroid, Property Centroid, Property Access Point, to name a few. The most significant of these is the Property Access Point it tends to occur where a property has an address in one street but because of different reasons (cliff, drainage, etc) the actual access is from another street, usually via a right of way. IMO addresses should be on nodes only and should show were you access the property (type Driveway frontage, Property Access Point, Building Access Point) without anything else on the node. This way when you use a router it takes you to where you access the property. This also covers the accessibility issues for disabled access. Interestingly, what you're saying is 'where I was' with Google maps - I placed the hospital marker not on the building but near the entrance to the driveway. This approach was queried by the hospital's web/IT dept and I explained that I place the marker to mark the destination for routing - i.e. so that a router would get someone on the right road despite the hospital building being closer to another road. I also explained that I consider placing the marker at the point where local signage would take over the navigation from that point. That idea was agreed and is similar to what you describe. However, with OSM we've far more tools to play with and it seems the ent/exit tag could be used in that way. Your last point is a similar case but in OSM the building (area) should have the address details and the access driveway should make it clear which road is the one used to reach the address. I'm not sure whether access routes should actually connect to buildings - I've not done this so far. A pointer on this one would be appreciated, thanks. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
