Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
Dormitories are rooms with multiple beds, usually bunk beds and associated with youth hostels, certainly not suitable for student accommodation where there is typically one student in a room, maybe two but they are certainly not dormitories. Phil (trigpoint ) On Sat Sep 20 2014 23:12:24 GMT+0100 (BST), Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: On 9/20/14, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-09-19 15:52 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British english! Wouldn't be the first time if ever: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dsoccer That said, to me dormitories may also apply to other institutionalized housing such as housing for staff of a manufacturing plant. Although I admit that dormitories are primarily for students in my understanding. This ambiguity can be resolved by careful definition in the Wiki if ever people accept *=dormitory. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
2014-09-21 0:49 GMT+01:00 Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com: On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 7:09 AM, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: Dormitories are rooms with multiple beds, usually bunk beds and associated with youth hostels, certainly not suitable for student accommodation where there is typically one student in a room, maybe two but they are certainly not dormitories. What you're saying is British English usage. Here in the Philippines, dormitories are understood to be buildings primarily for students. Thanks. So we've re-confirmed that the word dormitory has some ambiguities that might be problematic, especially considering that OSM is based on British English. Eugene points out sport=soccer which is a good example of OSM deliberately avoiding ambiguities, since in that case the common term football has one meaning in US and one in UK. In that case we avoided the British term as a special case, to avoid the ambiguity. Here dormitory is the ambiguous term. But that's all fine, since remember that Hno's tag proposal has already been altered to amenity=student_accommodation. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/amenity%3Dstudent_accommodation I agree with fly that it'd be nice to have a tag which didn't fix the profession (so that it could be used for nurses/lecturers/etc) but maybe that's not so bad. Cheers Dan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
2014-09-19 16:15 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-09-19 14:22 GMT+02:00 Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com: for buildings: building=residential + residential=university + operator=* OR for sites: landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=* Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for landuse. I am not sure if this works. Have you been looking at current values for the residential key? These are the ones with more than 100 uses: rural http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=rural 78 141 - urban http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=urban 12 698 - garden http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=garden 3 805 - gated http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=gated 884 - apartments http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=apartments 231 - single_family http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=single_family 197 - detached http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=detached 133 Thanks Martin. Yes I did look at these. NONE of them have a wiki page, nor does the residential=* tag in general, so I'm at a loss to work out what is intended by them! * Surely the rural/urban distinction is judged by location? Could you have residential=rural in the town centre? Maybe (since the tag isn't documented) but I would guess not. So what's the tag for? Does it designate context, building style, building density...? * Surely apartments/detached/single_family should be properties of the building objects? * residential=garden I quite like, but it seems to duplicate leisure=garden and it seems strange to me to consider gardens as residential since usually no-one lives in the garden. I wonder if it was ever discussed much. * residential=gated I like. In theory you can use barrier=* and access=* to indicate the unusual access constraints for gated residences, but actually it's not always obvious as that, since non-gated communities might also have fences etc. So this tag seems to me like it might make a useful distinction. There are already at least 3 different systems (one for rural / urban and one for the building typology (detached / single_family / apartments) and one for gated communities (what's this, socio-economic aspect of urbanism maybe?). Now you seem to be adding yet another one, university for student's appartments (not really self explaining IMHO). So if not self-explaining, what misunderstandings of residential=university could happen? It seems quite self-explaining to me, so I'd be grateful if you could offer your perspective of potential misunderstandings of residential=university. I would use a specific tag for the building typology (e.g. building=dormitory or student_accomodation or similar if the building was built as such) and another one if it is actually used as such (e.g. under the amenity key as suggested by Tobias). Understood. For the building, at least, the subtag works, if used to indicate building typology. I don't see this as a case for adding a specific landuse value, but I do agree that refining the generic residential into more differentiated values by subtagging might be a general option (regardless of this particular case of student accomodation), e.g. differentiate according to density and structure (open / closed, not sure about the precise term in English, for reference see these two pictures: open (=space between buildings) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offene_Bauweise_%28Baurecht%29#mediaviewer/File:Offene_Bauweise.png closed (buildings without space between them): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschlossene_Bauweise_%28Baurecht%29#mediaviewer/File:Geschlossene_Bauweise.png In British English this seems to me to detached vs semi-detached vs terrace (though there's not a 1:1 concept match). Again, though, it's not clear to me why you'd want to tag residential areas as having these properties, since they're already commonly indicated via the tags/geometry of the building objects. Thanks again for your detailed reply. Best Dan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
Another difference between college dormitories and apartments is that dormitory rooms usually lack cooking facilities, and, at least in older buildings, may have communal toilet/shower facilities rather than en suite facilities. On September 20, 2014 8:47:08 AM sabas88 saba...@gmail.com wrote: On 19 Sep 2014 16:54, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote: for buildings: building=residential + residential=university + operator=* OR for sites: landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=* Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for landuse. I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently used 263 times. (I will add that dormitory is certainly a little odd from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments already made to the RFC.) That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely because of the oddness involved with the term dormitory. Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but how the building is built. +1 I tagged some student residences as tourism=guest_house previously, but they aren't buildings (some are apartments inside buildings, but owned by the local government agency for student services). Stefano ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
2014-09-19 15:52 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote: for buildings: building=residential + residential=university + operator=* OR for sites: landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=* Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for landuse. I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently used 263 times. (I will add that dormitory is certainly a little odd from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments already made to the RFC.) That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely because of the oddness involved with the term dormitory. Ah yes, thanks. So now it assumes the occupants are students and not lecturers ;) (I'm just being cheeky. I know of universities in which lecturers do stay in similar accommodation blocks, but that point is not important enough to argue about...) Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct facility OK. I understand why you'd prefer amenity for tagging the usage. If that tag gets accepted I guess I should use that instead of landuse, and I understand your arguments there. I feel differently, because I feel the analogy between a housing estate and a multi-building student halls site is quite a strong analogy, neatly represented by a named area of landuse=residential. But there we go. and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but how the building is built. This week I stayed in university accommodation (even though I'm not a student ;), and the buildings were purpose-built student halls, so it would be nice to tag the building appropriately. Alternatives include: (a) building=residential (without subtagging), which is fine if vague; (b) building=apartments, which is tolerable but not quite appropriate; (c) building=dormitory which is in use, but it's US English, and to my Brit English mind just feels wrong. Sorry to moan about the US/UK difference, but it is indeed a difference: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/dormitory, http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/dormitory (d) building=residential + residential=university, the approach I was using recently. Not as widely used. It has an advantage of graceful fallback (meaning data-users can understand the objects as building=residential even if they ignore the subtag). I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British english! Cheers Dan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
On 19 Sep 2014 16:54, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote: for buildings: building=residential + residential=university + operator=* OR for sites: landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=* Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for landuse. I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently used 263 times. (I will add that dormitory is certainly a little odd from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments already made to the RFC.) That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely because of the oddness involved with the term dormitory. Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but how the building is built. +1 I tagged some student residences as tourism=guest_house previously, but they aren't buildings (some are apartments inside buildings, but owned by the local government agency for student services). Stefano ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
Students accommodation is neither tourism or guesthouse, I would have gone for hall_of_residence. Phil (trigpoint ) On Sat Sep 20 2014 14:46:17 GMT+0100 (BST), sabas88 wrote: On 19 Sep 2014 16:54, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote: for buildings: building=residential + residential=university + operator=* OR for sites: landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=* Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for landuse. I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently used 263 times. (I will add that dormitory is certainly a little odd from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments already made to the RFC.) That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely because of the oddness involved with the term dormitory. Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but how the building is built. +1 I tagged some student residences as tourism=guest_house previously, but they aren't buildings (some are apartments inside buildings, but owned by the local government agency for student services). Stefano ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
Am 20.09.2014 18:32, schrieb p...@trigpoint.me.uk: Students accommodation is neither tourism or guesthouse, +1 I would have gone for hall_of_residence. Do not know if hall_of_residence is the right term. I know this accommodations for staff of hospitals (nurses) , too. Would be nice if could find some tag to describe it without profession. cu fly On Sat Sep 20 2014 14:46:17 GMT+0100 (BST), sabas88 wrote: On 19 Sep 2014 16:54, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote: for buildings: building=residential + residential=university + operator=* OR for sites: landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=* Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for landuse. I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently used 263 times. (I will add that dormitory is certainly a little odd from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments already made to the RFC.) That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely because of the oddness involved with the term dormitory. Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but how the building is built. +1 I tagged some student residences as tourism=guest_house previously, but they aren't buildings (some are apartments inside buildings, but owned by the local government agency for student services). Stefano ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
On 09/20/2014 12:41 PM, fly wrote: Am 20.09.2014 18:32, schrieb p...@trigpoint.me.uk: I would have gone for hall_of_residence. Do not know if hall_of_residence is the right term. hall_of_residence would work. i would have proposed the shorter, less formal term residence_hall which is what you will find in US usage. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
Il giorno 20/set/2014, alle ore 13:47, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com ha scritto: I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British english! I'm also for a specific value, if dormitory doesn't hit it for the British, maybe there is an analog term? cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
On 9/20/14, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-09-19 15:52 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British english! Wouldn't be the first time if ever: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dsoccer That said, to me dormitories may also apply to other institutionalized housing such as housing for staff of a manufacturing plant. Although I admit that dormitories are primarily for students in my understanding. This ambiguity can be resolved by careful definition in the Wiki if ever people accept *=dormitory. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
Dormitories are rooms with multiple beds, usually bunk beds and associated with youth hostels, certainly not suitable for student accommodation where there is typically one student in a room, maybe two but they are certainly not dormitories. Phil (trigpoint ) On Sat Sep 20 2014 23:12:24 GMT+0100 (BST), Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: On 9/20/14, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-09-19 15:52 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British english! Wouldn't be the first time if ever: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dsoccer That said, to me dormitories may also apply to other institutionalized housing such as housing for staff of a manufacturing plant. Although I admit that dormitories are primarily for students in my understanding. This ambiguity can be resolved by careful definition in the Wiki if ever people accept *=dormitory. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 7:09 AM, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: Dormitories are rooms with multiple beds, usually bunk beds and associated with youth hostels, certainly not suitable for student accommodation where there is typically one student in a room, maybe two but they are certainly not dormitories. What you're saying is British English usage. Here in the Philippines, dormitories are understood to be buildings primarily for students. For example, in the Ateneo de Manila University, we have the Cervini Residence Hall for males and Eliazo Residence Hall for females: Note that the Wikipedia article classifies these are dormitories in accordance to local usage even if the official name uses Residence Hall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cervini-Eliazo_Residence_Halls In the University of the Philippines, we have several dormitories such as Kalayaan Hall, Ilang-Ilang Hall, Molave Hall, etc. There are also private businesses that run student dormitories, usually located very near universities such as Manila Dormitory across the University of Santo Tomas: http://maniladormitory.com/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
Hi all, I have been fixing some university tagging (Sheffield contained hundreds of amenity=university!). For student accommodation, I have been using for buildings: building=residential + residential=university + operator=* OR for sites: landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=* Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for landuse. I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently used 263 times. (I will add that dormitory is certainly a little odd from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments already made to the RFC.) residential=university has been used by a few people (99 objects, says overpass). 33 of these are building=residential, 53 are landuse=residential. It's clear I'm not the only one using this pattern, though it's not an approach that's officially adopted as far as I know. To me it seems very meaningful usage, compatible with existing tagging, and covers the intended use of amenity=dormitory except for monasteries ;) Thoughts? Best Dan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote: for buildings: building=residential + residential=university + operator=* OR for sites: landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=* Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for landuse. I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently used 263 times. (I will add that dormitory is certainly a little odd from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments already made to the RFC.) That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely because of the oddness involved with the term dormitory. Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but how the building is built. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)
2014-09-19 14:22 GMT+02:00 Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com: for buildings: building=residential + residential=university + operator=* OR for sites: landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=* Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for landuse. I am not sure if this works. Have you been looking at current values for the residential key? These are the ones with more than 100 uses: rural http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=rural 78 141 - urban http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=urban 12 698 - garden http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=garden 3 805 - gated http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=gated 884 - apartments http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=apartments 231 - single_family http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=single_family 197 - detached http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=detached 133 There are already at least 3 different systems (one for rural / urban and one for the building typology (detached / single_family / apartments) and one for gated communities (what's this, socio-economic aspect of urbanism maybe?). Now you seem to be adding yet another one, university for student's appartments (not really self explaining IMHO). I would use a specific tag for the building typology (e.g. building=dormitory or student_accomodation or similar if the building was built as such) and another one if it is actually used as such (e.g. under the amenity key as suggested by Tobias). I don't see this as a case for adding a specific landuse value, but I do agree that refining the generic residential into more differentiated values by subtagging might be a general option (regardless of this particular case of student accomodation), e.g. differentiate according to density and structure (open / closed, not sure about the precise term in English, for reference see these two pictures: open (=space between buildings) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offene_Bauweise_%28Baurecht%29#mediaviewer/File:Offene_Bauweise.png closed (buildings without space between them): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschlossene_Bauweise_%28Baurecht%29#mediaviewer/File:Geschlossene_Bauweise.png the above distinction is still quite generic, both of these types also have a lot of subtypes (ideally, then there are mixed cases). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
