Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Richard Welty]

On 2/19/18 6:37 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> On 19. Feb 2018, at 22:28, Richard Welty  > wrote:
>
>> i know of examples in both italy and the US. the italian ones
>> i've seen are older and thus much more sunken than the ones in the US.
>
>
> in Italy there are also “a lot” of historic cuttings (in rock),
> predating the Roman empire.
>
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=tagliata+etrusca=h_=images=images
>
not all in rock. we saw a deeply sunken road in packed dirt at an
Etruscan site
in Tuscany quite a few years ago.

there are sunken roads/lanes associated with a couple of battlefields
from the
American Civil War, notably the one at the Antietam battlefield. these
are generally
of historical significance because they were handy pre-existing
entrenchments
that impacted the course of the battles. 100 years of use are easily
enough to
create a road or way that deserves to be called "sunken".

richard

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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20. Feb 2018, at 18:57, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> 
> That said, I have no view regarding the use of the term in tagging.


according to the actual statistics, there almost 5000 historic=hollow_way and 1 
(one) historic=sunken_lane (also checked other keys, no significant useof these 
terms)

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Andy Mabbett]

On 19 February 2018 at 09:00, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> As a native English speaker I have never heard the term Hollow Way

Well, as a native English speaker, I have. It's what gave the name to
"Holloway Head", in Birmingham:

   https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/430568379

   
https://billdargue.jimdo.com/placenames-gazetteer-a-to-y/places-h/holloway-head/

which is an historic street name, not a neologism.

That said, I have no view regarding the use of the term in tagging.

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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Kevin Kenny]

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> As Andy says Hollow Way is an archaic term, of which the Oxford English
> Dictionary contains many.
>
> More contemporary organisations use the term sunken lane for example
> The National Trust
> https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/features/what-are-sunken-lanes
>
> http://shropshirehistory.com/comms/romanroads.htm

None of the terms was familiar to me (and I'm a native speaker of
American English who recognizes that the USAians and Britons are
sundered by a common language). But 'sunken lane' at least made
sense as having a natural meaning as a pair of common words;
'hollow way', I'd have had to look up to make sure that its technical
meaning matched my understanding.

Contrary to popular belief, we do have them around here on the
old carriageways and turnpikes - it doesn't take a history back to
Roman or medieval times to erode them. Even 120 years of weather can
exact a toll. I'd be tempted to change the tagging on
https://flic.kr/p/oNCZVD https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/516500341
since that's exactly what happened there.

Off topic:

That is still a public right-of-way used by hikers; the rangers will
occasionally take a Jeep on it as far as the West Stony Creek
campsite gate. The guy who owns the land on both
sides thinks that because the state bought the failed homesteads
farther in, the road is abandoned. He occasionally gates it, and
the state tears down the gate. He sicked a dog on me once
when I was signing in at the trailhead. A whack across the snout
with the grip of a trekking pole made the dog lose interest in
the project - particularly since the dog could see that the
pole had a sharp end, too.

The last time I was there, the dog wasn't, and the sign at the
(open) gate was changed to read "Public easement on
private land - No motor vehicles -STAY ON THE TRAIL!" so maybe
The Powers That Be had a word with the guy.

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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Kevin Kenny]

 On 02/20/2018 08:57 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

On 20. Feb 2018, at 00:57, Dave F 
 wrote:

But not for its original purpose, as it is in this cae

in the original “purpose”, yes. A historic=memorial is and likely ever
was a memorial. An archaeological site was something else in the past,
but it wasn’t called archaeological site at that time. The history tag
in OSM is what it currently is, not what it was.

That bald statement doesn't capture the subtleties of repurposed things. It
does not handle the case, for instance, of a building that is historically
signficant (and listed) for being the first district school in the area,
later was a meeting hall reenported to have be a meeting place of the
rebels in the Helderberg War, and is now the office of a security company.
Schools in the time it was built looked very much like private houses,
although the brickwork has a cornerstone bearing the date it was laid
(uncommon in private houses here), and the door lintel says 'District
School No. 4' [1] (but is obscured by a portico that was added later).

What it is now is building=office, and it doesn't look much different from
neighbouring small offices (which aped its style - and the building in
question has been remodeled so many times that it's now inauthentic for any
single period). Still, there's an explanatory marker out front and a little
display of old artifacts in the entryway, and it's on the National Register
of Historic Places. Simply saying, "what it is now is a building=office',
while true, loses information.

[1] yes, the number is '4' - '1', '2', and '3', while planned earlier, were
actually constructed later.
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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Dave F]

On 20/02/2018 07:40, joost schouppe wrote:
Some of the most used historical tags are for things that are just 
old, not necessarily disused or with another use than the original one.


As I said, everything has a history.

Wayside cross and shrine, monuments, memorials, castles etc. It just 
seems to signify a special relationship with history, not much more 
than that.


Shrines/Memorials are a bit of a strange one. Their current use is the 
same as originally planned. What's 'historic' is the event they're 
memorializing.



DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Dave F]

...and water.

As the

On 20/02/2018 14:30, Philip Barnes wrote:

In this case, they are old and have a history. They started as tracks and 
usually still are.


Which is why they should be tagged as track/footway etc.


  They are sunken purely by the passage of time, wear from feet, hooves and 
cartwheels.


... and water.

DaveF


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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Philip Barnes]

In this case, they are old and have a history. They started as tracks and 
usually still are. They are sunken purely by the passage of time, wear from 
feet, hooves and cartwheels.

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 20 February 2018 13:57:33 GMT+00:00, Martin Koppenhoefer 
 wrote:
>
>
>sent from a phone
>
>> On 20. Feb 2018, at 00:57, Dave F 
>wrote:
>> 
>> But not for its original purpose, as it is in this cae
>
>
>in the original “purpose”, yes. A historic=memorial is and likely ever
>was a memorial. An archaeological site was something else in the past,
>but it wasn’t called archaeological site at that time. The history tag
>in OSM is what it currently is, not what it was.
>
>cheers,
>Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon, 2018-02-19 at 20:20 +, Steve Doerr wrote:
> On 19/02/2018 09:00, Philip Barnes wrote:
> 
> > As a native English speaker I have never heard the term Hollow
> > Way, 
> > however reading the description it seems that this proposal is 
> > describing what is called a Sunken Lane.
> 
> Might need a bit more research as both are fairly obscure terms, I
> would 
> imagine. For what it's worth, 'hollow-way' [sic] is mentioned in the 
> Oxford English Dictionary, while 'sunken lane' isn't, as far as I can
> see.
> 
It not a particularly obscure landscape feature, the rural landscape is full
of them many of them and they form parts of our rights of way network and my
experience is they are called sunken lanes. 

As Andy says Hollow Way is an archaic term, of which the Oxford English
Dictionary contains many. We cannot 

More contemporary organisations use the term sunken lane for example
The National Trust  
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/features/what-are-sunken-lanes

http://shropshirehistory.com/comms/romanroads.htm


Phil (trigpoint) 



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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20. Feb 2018, at 00:57, Dave F  wrote:
> 
> But not for its original purpose, as it is in this cae


in the original “purpose”, yes. A historic=memorial is and likely ever was a 
memorial. An archaeological site was something else in the past, but it wasn’t 
called archaeological site at that time. The history tag in OSM is what it 
currently is, not what it was.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Andy Townsend]

On 20/02/2018 07:40, joost schouppe wrote:
Some of the most used historical tags are for things that are just 
old, not necessarily disused or with another use than the original 
one. Wayside cross and shrine, monuments, memorials, castles etc. It 
just seems to signify a special relationship with history, not much 
more than that.

...

As an aside, I did go through the usage of "historic" in the UK and 
Ireland, and it's a bit of a hodge-podge between "things that were once 
something but there's nothing there now" (effectively used as a a 
lifecycle tag), "things that are still something" (e.g. memorial), and 
"things that are still something, but are important because of what they 
were" (castle etc.).  I ended up with a list of things to treat as 
buildings, things to treat as "almost buildings", things that probably 
aren't buildings and some specific other checks (e.g. "chimney"):


https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L1509

Essentially, it's a complete mess.  I was glad that I was able to do 
something useful with e.g. 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=17=52.657347=-7.12672 
- you can find a few grains of wheat in among the chaff but most of 
what's in there is (like "hollow_way") a bit too idosyncratic to be even 
thinking about creating a regular wiki page for.





I still haven't heard of a procedure to vote on tag A over tag B, so 
I've invented my own. You can vote here:


https://framadate.org/ApOlIj5ePZvrTjz8


Misses a "none of the above" option.

Best Regards,
Andy



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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[joost schouppe]

Some of the most used historical tags are for things that are just old, not
necessarily disused or with another use than the original one. Wayside
cross and shrine, monuments, memorials, castles etc. It just seems to
signify a special relationship with history, not much more than that.

But then there is the conflict with other historic tags a road might have.

On the other hand, if cutting does not imply "constructed" it seems like
the perfect fit. But the wiki for cutting seems to imply this ("an
excavated section").
Also, cutting can be defined as left/right/both, which is kind of possible
for sunken lanes too.

So that makes me think of a third solution, where we use a dedicated tag
sunken_lane=yes. This could then be seen as a fine-tuning of cutting. Data
consumers would then have to look for a subtag to decide what kind of
cutting it is. Or we could define it as "do not use it together"; say if
you combine it, it would mean "a former sunken lane that has now been
artificially cut". Doing this would also make it possible to add a
left/right value for cases where the sunken lane is very asymmetrical.
But that would mean an entirely new tag.

In all, I think I like historic=sunken_lane best. In the cases where two
values apply, well, that's just part of a bigger issue we'll have to deal
with somewhere else.

As for the word hollow_way, seems there is still some discussion about
that, so we now have six options :)

I still haven't heard of a procedure to vote on tag A over tag B, so I've
invented my own. You can vote here:

https://framadate.org/ApOlIj5ePZvrTjz8

I'll adapt the proposal to whatever wins and put that up for a vote.
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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Marco Boeringa]

I am actually a bit surprised by this. It may be a research related 
term, but "hollow way" seems quite common in British English archaeology...


See these links:

- Historic England: 
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1016748
- Shorne Woods Arhaeology Group: 
http://shornewoodsarchaeology.co.uk/sites/hollow-way
- Dalton Woodland Burial Ground: Lime Kiln Plantation Archaeology: 
http://www.daltonwoodlandburial.co.uk/lime-kiln-plantation-archaeology/
- Google book reference: "The Archaeology of Medieval England and 
Wales": 
https://books.google.nl/books?id=sxshBQAAQBAJ=PA108=PA108=hollow+way+archaeology=bl=TREFZqmbG-=XufOw6xWGSBaQTGk9sF-7_YH0Aw=nl=X=0ahUKEwju38jR97PZAhXH1qQKHaz6DLYQ6AEIVzAF#v=onepage=hollow%20way%20archaeology=false
- Harvard University: "Hollow Ways: *Ancient Communication Networks in 
Northern Mesopotamia": 
*https://scholar.harvard.edu/jasonur/pages/hollow-ways-1


Marco

Op 19-2-2018 om 10:51 schreef Andy Townsend:

On 19/02/2018 09:00, Philip Barnes wrote:

Hi Joost
As a native English speaker I have never heard the term Hollow Way, 
however reading the description it seems that this proposal is 
describing what is called a Sunken Lane.


I would avoid cutting as that implies something that has been cut 
deliberately for the construction of a motorway, railway or canal etc.


The map https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/historic=hollow_way#map 
suggests that it's been used in Germany by people who think it's an 
English term.


It's not really used at all in modern English - there are a few 
placenames called "Holloway" (the one in Derbyshire might be named 
after the top bit of https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/127047259 ) so 
it doesn't really make sense to "approve" it as a tag.  If people want 
to use it locally - fine - and if renderers locally want to use it 
also fine (under the "any tags you like" principle).


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Dave F]

On 19/02/2018 23:16, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


everything we tag is still what it is. A historic=archaeological_site is also 
“used” as archaeological site, or a historic=memorial.


But not for its original purpose, as it is in this cae

DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Feb 2018, at 22:28, Richard Welty  wrote:
> 
> i know of examples in both italy and the US. the italian ones
> i've seen are older and thus much more sunken than the ones in the US.


in Italy there are also “a lot” of historic cuttings (in rock), predating the 
Roman empire.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=tagliata+etrusca=h_=images=images


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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[John Willis]

> On Feb 19, 2018, at 8:32 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
> cutting=sunken_lane feels good.


this feels right to me too. 

Javbw

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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Feb 2018, at 19:33, Dave F  wrote:
> 
> If something is still in use then historic is the wrong tag.



everything we tag is still what it is. A historic=archaeological_site is also 
“used” as archaeological site, or a historic=memorial.

The historic key is used for things that relate to “history” in the eye of the 
mapper, it doesn’t necessarily mean a thing is not “used” anymore now.

cheers,
Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Richard Welty]

On 2/19/18 3:20 PM, Steve Doerr wrote:
> On 19/02/2018 09:00, Philip Barnes wrote:
>
>> As a native English speaker I have never heard the term Hollow Way,
>> however reading the description it seems that this proposal is
>> describing what is called a Sunken Lane.
>
> Might need a bit more research as both are fairly obscure terms, I
> would imagine. For what it's worth, 'hollow-way' [sic] is mentioned in
> the Oxford English Dictionary, while 'sunken lane' isn't, as far as I
> can see
the concept of a sunken way or sunken road is one that historians are fairly
familiar with. i know of examples in both italy and the US. the italian ones
i've seen are older and thus much more sunken than the ones in the US.

richard

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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Andy Townsend]

On 19/02/2018 20:59, Jo wrote:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/holloway


Indeed - but if you actually read the links there you'll see Bill 
Bryson's comment on that very page ("In different regions they go by 
different names...").  He's someone who's studied the origin of the 
language in both the UK and the US. The word "holloway" is pretty 
archaic, appearing now only in some placenames (I gave an example in 
Derbyshire) but isn't widely used as a descriptive term.


Best Regards,
Andy

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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Jo]

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/holloway

2018-02-19 21:20 GMT+01:00 Steve Doerr :

> On 19/02/2018 09:00, Philip Barnes wrote:
>
> As a native English speaker I have never heard the term Hollow Way,
>> however reading the description it seems that this proposal is describing
>> what is called a Sunken Lane.
>>
>
> Might need a bit more research as both are fairly obscure terms, I would
> imagine. For what it's worth, 'hollow-way' [sic] is mentioned in the Oxford
> English Dictionary, while 'sunken lane' isn't, as far as I can see.
>
> --
> Steve
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Dave F]

On 19/02/2018 11:32, Colin Smale wrote:


Why historic? It still is a sunken lane.



If something is still in use then historic is the wrong tag.
Everything, even the most recently open roads, have a history even if 
it's a short one.


DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Dave F]

On 19/02/2018 09:00, Philip Barnes wrote:

Hi Joost
As a native English speaker I have never heard the term Hollow Way, 
however reading the description it seems that this proposal is 
describing what is called a Sunken Lane.


I would avoid cutting as that implies something that has been cut 
deliberately for the construction of a motorway, railway or canal etc.




Using the wiki photo as a basis, I would tag that as highway=* 
(depending on what rights of access there are. It certainly doesn't look 
abandoned)
I would then add cutting=* as appropriate, which can be used in both 
cases of natural erosion & man made.


DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Max]

On 19.02.2018 11:48, joost schouppe wrote:
Hollow way is probably a germanism; it's what sunken lanes are literally 

Right:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hohlweg=images


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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-02-19 12:32 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :

> Wikipedia says they are also known as hollow way - you learn something
> every day. Sunken Lane appears to be the preferred terminology however.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunken_lane
>


Germans are writing in the English WP as well :-)



>
>
> Why historic? It still is a sunken lane.
>


historic means with some relation to history, a historic=memorial is still
a memorial...


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-02-19 11:48 GMT+01:00 joost schouppe :

> Hi,
>
> Hollow way is probably a germanism; it's what sunken lanes are literally
> called in Dutch too. I absolutely agree that we should stick to British
> English for tags, wherever possible. So if we change the proposal to
> historic=sunken_lane, then we're all set for voting, right?
>
> Almost all the hollow_way's in Germany seem to have been made in one go
> (looking at taghistory.raifer.tech), so I think that means there's a decent
> chance for a relatively massive change operation.
>
>


+1 to sunken_lane rather than hollow_way, but is this in conflict with
historic=road and we should use a subtag like sunken_lane=yes or
cutting=sunken_lane (I don't share the concern that the cutting term
implies modern excavation)? There are even more instances of
historic=roman_road, are those never sunken lanes?

I wouldn't exclude that at least some of those sunken lanes have been cut
deliberately (in these cases contrary to the meaning of "sunken" which
might imply a longer process?), e.g. around here there are many Etruscan
rock-cut roads.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Colin Smale]

Wikipedia says they are also known as hollow way - you learn something
every day. Sunken Lane appears to be the preferred terminology however. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunken_lane

Why historic? It still is a sunken lane. If you go back a couple of
hundred years it probably wasn't though - the level has lowered through
erosion over a very long period. 

It is a way in a cutting, but a special type of cutting whereby it is
not deliberately lowered by a single act of man (or highways authority
or whatever). As such I think cutting=sunken_lane feels good. 

On 2018-02-19 11:48, joost schouppe wrote:

> Hi, 
> 
> Hollow way is probably a germanism; it's what sunken lanes are literally 
> called in Dutch too. I absolutely agree that we should stick to British 
> English for tags, wherever possible. So if we change the proposal to 
> historic=sunken_lane, then we're all set for voting, right? 
> 
> Almost all the hollow_way's in Germany seem to have been made in one go 
> (looking at taghistory.raifer.tech), so I think that means there's a decent 
> chance for a relatively massive change operation. 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Dave Swarthout]

>
> Hi Joost
> As a native English speaker I have never heard the term Hollow Way,
> however reading the description it seems that this proposal is describing
> what is called a Sunken Lane.
>
> I would avoid cutting as that implies something that has been cut
> deliberately for the construction of a motorway, railway or canal etc.
>

+1

I have never seen the term hollow_way either.

Dave

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 19/02/2018 09:00, Philip Barnes wrote:
>
>> Hi Joost
>> As a native English speaker I have never heard the term Hollow Way,
>> however reading the description it seems that this proposal is describing
>> what is called a Sunken Lane.
>>
>> I would avoid cutting as that implies something that has been cut
>> deliberately for the construction of a motorway, railway or canal etc.
>>
>
> The map https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/historic=hollow_way#map
> suggests that it's been used in Germany by people who think it's an English
> term.
>
> It's not really used at all in modern English - there are a few placenames
> called "Holloway" (the one in Derbyshire might be named after the top bit
> of https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/127047259 ) so it doesn't really
> make sense to "approve" it as a tag.  If people want to use it locally -
> fine - and if renderers locally want to use it also fine (under the "any
> tags you like" principle).
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Andy Townsend]

On 19/02/2018 09:00, Philip Barnes wrote:

Hi Joost
As a native English speaker I have never heard the term Hollow Way, 
however reading the description it seems that this proposal is 
describing what is called a Sunken Lane.


I would avoid cutting as that implies something that has been cut 
deliberately for the construction of a motorway, railway or canal etc.


The map https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/historic=hollow_way#map 
suggests that it's been used in Germany by people who think it's an 
English term.


It's not really used at all in modern English - there are a few 
placenames called "Holloway" (the one in Derbyshire might be named after 
the top bit of https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/127047259 ) so it 
doesn't really make sense to "approve" it as a tag.  If people want to 
use it locally - fine - and if renderers locally want to use it also 
fine (under the "any tags you like" principle).


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] reviving hollow way

[Philip Barnes]

Hi Joost
As a native English speaker I have never heard the term Hollow Way, however 
reading the description it seems that this proposal is describing what is 
called a Sunken Lane.

I would avoid cutting as that implies something that has been cut deliberately 
for the construction of a motorway, railway or canal etc.

Cheers Phil 

On 19 February 2018 08:15:47 GMT+00:00, joost schouppe 
 wrote:
>Hi,
>
>The proposal for historic=hollow_way has been in RFC since 2009. There
>are
>now 4500 objects tagged this way. The main alternative
>cutting=hollow_way
>has less than 50 occurences. Other alternatives seem to have been
>abandoned. Can we just move this to RFV or do we need to restart the
>discussion first?
>
>Proposal page:
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hollow_way
>
>
>-- 
>Joost Schouppe
>OpenStreetMap  |
>Twitter  | LinkedIn
> | Meetup
>

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