Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Volker Schmidt]

In addition I think there are (wooden) platforms for churns in the same
area. At least I think so, but until I find one, I cannot say for sure
whether they still exist or not.

On Sun, 21 Jun 2020, 15:37 Paul Allen,  wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 14:22, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
>> My point was only that we should be carefully looking for variants of the
>> concept, and try to make it mappable, avoiding too specialized tags.
>> Something like "milk collection point" would comprise both if we were to
>> distinguish active from historic ones.
>>
>
> It depends if we're tagging function or form or trying to handle both.  I
> have no
> objection to a milk_collection_point tag (or collection_point=milk) or
> whatever, as
> additional information but I'd like to have a tag for the physical form of
> these
> stands.
>
> In the UK, these are no longer used, or no longer used for their original
> purpose.  So man_made=milk_churn_stand + disused=yes is a better fit than
> just amenity = milk_collection_point + disused=yes because the latter on
> its
> own is just mapping history.
>
> --
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Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 14:22, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> My point was only that we should be carefully looking for variants of the
> concept, and try to make it mappable, avoiding too specialized tags.
> Something like "milk collection point" would comprise both if we were to
> distinguish active from historic ones.
>

It depends if we're tagging function or form or trying to handle both.  I
have no
objection to a milk_collection_point tag (or collection_point=milk) or
whatever, as
additional information but I'd like to have a tag for the physical form of
these
stands.

In the UK, these are no longer used, or no longer used for their original
purpose.  So man_made=milk_churn_stand + disused=yes is a better fit than
just amenity = milk_collection_point + disused=yes because the latter on its
own is just mapping history.

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Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21. Jun 2020, at 15:22, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> My point was only that we should be carefully looking for variants of the 
> concept, and try to make it mappable, avoiding too specialized tags.
> Something like "milk collection point" would comprise both if we were to 
> distinguish active from historic ones.


IMHO you are talking about different things: one is about remnants in the 
landscape, useful for orientation and interesting for some as testimonies of 
history, the other is about a function which is exercised at certain times and 
otherwise not observable, hence pretty useless to know about unless you have 
very particular interests (because the farmers will likely not need 
OpenStreetMap to know where to bring their milk).
I find the inactive milk churning stands more important to map than the active 
collection points, and I don’t see a need or even good argument to use the same 
tag on both. Man made seems suitable for the former, amenity and 
disused:amenity would be fine for the function (but as explained above, 
function is less important in this case, subjectively)


Cheers Martin 



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Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Volker Schmidt]

My point was only that we should be carefully looking for variants of the
concept, and try to make it mappable, avoiding too specialized tags.
Something like "milk collection point" would comprise both if we were to
distinguish active from historic ones.


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On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 15:09, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 13:13, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
>>
>> I looked around a bit (I am a city dweller, apologies, if this is new to
>> me)
>> In South Tyrol (Italy) they have an interesting variant of this concept.
>> The dairy uses refrigerated containers which are parked in designated spots
>> at scheduled times. The nearby farmers bring their milk to the container
>> and fill it up. The full containers are collected and carried to the dairy.
>> I found this photograph  of
>> such a container on Instagram.
>> I suppose this is not a mappable feature.
>>
>
> It's not a milk churn stand because there is no platform.  If you find one
> of
> these with a platform then that would be a milk churn stand.
>
> It ought to be mappable, even so.  There is an area of paved surface
> adjoining
> the road.  It might be a small car park (mappable) or a lay-by (mappable)
> or
> a passing place (mappable).  So such areas are mappable, we just don't have
> tags for such areas with this particular function.  I see no reason why
> there
> could not be, especially if there is signage telling people not to park
> there
> because it is a collection point.  You could propose suitable tagging.
>
> Or, you could bodge it. :)  You could make the area where the containers
> are placed highway=service + area=yes.  You could ask the locals what its
> name is and they'll probably respond with the local language equivalent of
> "Milk Collection Point" or "Milk Collection Point 46" or some such which
> (in common with many things in rural areas) is a name that looks
> suspiciously
> like a functional description, so you can name it.  OSM purists will now be
> clutching their pearls, so add a fixme saying it should be retagged when
> suitable tagging becomes available.
>
> More seriously, we probably should find a way to map collection points
> because, on the ground, a tourist may think they're just parking spots and
> park there.  highway=collection_point + area=yes + collection_point=milk,
> maybe.  Some would argue it's not a highway, so maybe
> amenity=collectoin_point + access=private + collection_point=milk.
> I've purposely added a collection_point subtag rather than make it
> *=milk_collection_point so we can handle other things without
> over-burdening a top-level tag with more values.
>
> Of course, that would then have overlap for those milk churn stands
> that are still functional, and that complicates things.  So maybe we should
> forget those milk collection points exist. :)
>
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Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 13:13, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

>
> I looked around a bit (I am a city dweller, apologies, if this is new to
> me)
> In South Tyrol (Italy) they have an interesting variant of this concept.
> The dairy uses refrigerated containers which are parked in designated spots
> at scheduled times. The nearby farmers bring their milk to the container
> and fill it up. The full containers are collected and carried to the dairy.
> I found this photograph  of
> such a container on Instagram.
> I suppose this is not a mappable feature.
>

It's not a milk churn stand because there is no platform.  If you find one
of
these with a platform then that would be a milk churn stand.

It ought to be mappable, even so.  There is an area of paved surface
adjoining
the road.  It might be a small car park (mappable) or a lay-by (mappable) or
a passing place (mappable).  So such areas are mappable, we just don't have
tags for such areas with this particular function.  I see no reason why
there
could not be, especially if there is signage telling people not to park
there
because it is a collection point.  You could propose suitable tagging.

Or, you could bodge it. :)  You could make the area where the containers
are placed highway=service + area=yes.  You could ask the locals what its
name is and they'll probably respond with the local language equivalent of
"Milk Collection Point" or "Milk Collection Point 46" or some such which
(in common with many things in rural areas) is a name that looks
suspiciously
like a functional description, so you can name it.  OSM purists will now be
clutching their pearls, so add a fixme saying it should be retagged when
suitable tagging becomes available.

More seriously, we probably should find a way to map collection points
because, on the ground, a tourist may think they're just parking spots and
park there.  highway=collection_point + area=yes + collection_point=milk,
maybe.  Some would argue it's not a highway, so maybe
amenity=collectoin_point + access=private + collection_point=milk.
I've purposely added a collection_point subtag rather than make it
*=milk_collection_point so we can handle other things without
over-burdening a top-level tag with more values.

Of course, that would then have overlap for those milk churn stands
that are still functional, and that complicates things.  So maybe we should
forget those milk collection points exist. :)

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Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21. Jun 2020, at 14:13, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> The nearby farmers bring their milk to the container and fill it up. The full 
> containers are collected and carried to the dairy.
> I found this photograph of such a container on Instagram.
> I suppose this is not a mappable feature.


The caption says “collection point”, which indicates that it happens at the 
same spots, so in theory it could be mapped I would think (it is verifiable, go 
to the spot at the collection time and you can see it). 

Different kind of thing as the OP’s feature, the latter is about a physical 
remnant of a former function, the thing you posted is about only a function at 
a given place but no physical manifestation.

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Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Volker Schmidt]

Update.
I looked around a bit (I am a city dweller, apologies, if this is new to me)
In South Tyrol (Italy) they have an interesting variant of this concept.
The dairy uses refrigerated containers which are parked in designated spots
at scheduled times. The nearby farmers bring their milk to the container
and fill it up. The full containers are collected and carried to the dairy.
I found this photograph  of such
a container on Instagram.
I suppose this is not a mappable feature.



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On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 11:28, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Sat, 2020-06-20 at 19:25 +0100, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 19:08, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>
> > On 20. Jun 2020, at 14:44, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > They should probably have disused=yes or a disused lifecycle
> > prefix (cue endless arguments about which) except in parts of the world
> > where they actually are still in use (if they are).
>
> I think if any I would use disused=yes as they still remain „operational“
> I guess, although not actually used.
>
>
> True of brick/concrete/stone.  For wooden ones that are decaying,
> abandoned=yes
> may be more appropriate.  I've not had chance to take a look myself yet
> (and
> won't be able to look until there's a vaccine) but sources I cannot use for
> mapping indicate that the one nearest to me, embedded in a bank, has had
> the bank reshaped to cover the top of it (only the side is visible).  Using
> abandoned=yes in such cases would seem appropriate.
>
> The disused:key=value style seems more appropriate for functions (amenity
> etc.) than for physical descriptions (man_made).
>
>
> That is how I interpret it, but others on this list have a different
> opinion.  However,
> I'd go with was:man_made=milk_churn_stand if it had been repurposed
> in some way that it merited a different main tag.  A foolish consistency
> is the hobgoblin of little minds, according to Ralph Waldo Emerson.
>
> That leaves the question of the name.  For older British English speakers
> the
> containers are called milk churns, even though they are not for churning
> milk.  This may cause confusion to younger speakers of British English
> and those for whom English is a second language.  According to the
> Wikipedia article these are sometimes referred to as milk cans so
> maybe milk_can_stand would be better than milk_churn_stand.
>
> I can remember milk churns on these stands waiting for collection being a
> common sight when I was growing up.
>
> These days milk churns are a common period prop on preserved railway
> stations.
> For example here at Arley 
> https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4458834
>
> When children see these and ask what they are they will be told that they
> are milk churns rather milk cans.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Philip Barnes]

On Sat, 2020-06-20 at 19:25 +0100, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 19:08, Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > On 20. Jun 2020, at 14:44, Paul Allen  wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > They should probably have disused=yes or a disused lifecycle
> > 
> > > prefix (cue endless arguments about which) except in parts of the
> > world
> > 
> > > where they actually are still in use (if they are).
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I think if any I would use disused=yes as they still remain
> > „operational“ I guess, although not actually used.
> 
> True of brick/concrete/stone.  For wooden ones that are decaying,
> abandoned=yes
> may be more appropriate.  I've not had chance to take a look myself
> yet (and
> won't be able to look until there's a vaccine) but sources I cannot
> use for
> mapping indicate that the one nearest to me, embedded in a bank, has
> had
> the bank reshaped to cover the top of it (only the side is visible). 
> Using
> abandoned=yes in such cases would seem appropriate.
> 
> > The disused:key=value style seems more appropriate for functions
> > (amenity etc.) than for physical descriptions (man_made).
> 
> That is how I interpret it, but others on this list have a different
> opinion.  However,
> I'd go with was:man_made=milk_churn_stand if it had been repurposed
> in some way that it merited a different main tag.  A foolish
> consistency
> is the hobgoblin of little minds, according to Ralph Waldo Emerson.
> 
> That leaves the question of the name.  For older British English
> speakers the
> containers are called milk churns, even though they are not for
> churning
> milk.  This may cause confusion to younger speakers of British
> English
> and those for whom English is a second language.  According to the
> Wikipedia article these are sometimes referred to as milk cans so
> maybe milk_can_stand would be better than milk_churn_stand.
> 
I can remember milk churns on these stands waiting for collection being
a common sight when I was growing up.
These days milk churns are a common period prop on preserved railway
stations.For example here at Arley 
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4458834
When children see these and ask what they are they will be told that
they are milk churns rather milk cans.
Phil (trigpoint)




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> Paul
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Certainly milk churns in Australia - at least to this Older English
Speaker! :-), even though TBMK they are no longer actually used.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Volker Schmidt]

To my memory, these platforms for milk "container" collection are still in
active daily use at least in some parts northern Italy, and,  I think,
other parts of the Alps. So it is important not to make the tag "historic"
only. In some parts of Germany there used to be one-per-village small
buildings where the farmers would deposit their milk cans.I don't if any of
these are still active, but I imagine that same are still present as small
buildings.

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020, 20:44 Paul Allen,  wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 19:32, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I agree with mapping these as man_made=milk_churn_stand and adding
>> disused=yes when this is known, since a used vs disused stone or concrete
>> stand will look exactly the same.
>>
>
> The two will look different when milk churns are put on the stand for
> collection.
>
> However, in the UK they are all disused (as far as their original purpose
> goes).
> Surprisingly (to me) EU regulations still permit milk to be transported in
> churns
> but they must have some means of refrigeration so I doubt this happens in
> many places (the EU regulations mention "in-container refrigeration" which
> probably wouldn't fit in the old-style churns).
>
> --
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Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 19:32, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

>
> I agree with mapping these as man_made=milk_churn_stand and adding
> disused=yes when this is known, since a used vs disused stone or concrete
> stand will look exactly the same.
>

The two will look different when milk churns are put on the stand for
collection.

However, in the UK they are all disused (as far as their original purpose
goes).
Surprisingly (to me) EU regulations still permit milk to be transported in
churns
but they must have some means of refrigeration so I doubt this happens in
many places (the EU regulations mention "in-container refrigeration" which
probably wouldn't fit in the old-style churns).

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Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> I think if any I would use disused=yes as they still remain „operational“
I guess, although not actually used.
> The disused:key=value style seems more appropriate for functions (amenity
etc.) than for physical descriptions (man_made).

+1

I agree with mapping these as man_made=milk_churn_stand and adding
disused=yes when this is known, since a used vs disused stone or concrete
stand will look exactly the same.

As mentioned by Paul, if there is a rotten wooden stand which is falling
apart, that could be "abandoned=yes" since it couldn't be used without
major remodeling / repairs.

– Joseph Eisenberg

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 11:08 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 20. Jun 2020, at 14:44, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > They should probably have disused=yes or a disused lifecycle
> > prefix (cue endless arguments about which) except in parts of the world
> > where they actually are still in use (if they are).
>
> I think if any I would use disused=yes as they still remain „operational“
> I guess, although not actually used.
> The disused:key=value style seems more appropriate for functions (amenity
> etc.) than for physical descriptions (man_made).
>
>
> Cheers Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 19:08, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 20. Jun 2020, at 14:44, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > They should probably have disused=yes or a disused lifecycle
> > prefix (cue endless arguments about which) except in parts of the world
> > where they actually are still in use (if they are).
>
> I think if any I would use disused=yes as they still remain „operational“
> I guess, although not actually used.
>

True of brick/concrete/stone.  For wooden ones that are decaying,
abandoned=yes
may be more appropriate.  I've not had chance to take a look myself yet (and
won't be able to look until there's a vaccine) but sources I cannot use for
mapping indicate that the one nearest to me, embedded in a bank, has had
the bank reshaped to cover the top of it (only the side is visible).  Using
abandoned=yes in such cases would seem appropriate.

The disused:key=value style seems more appropriate for functions (amenity
> etc.) than for physical descriptions (man_made).
>

That is how I interpret it, but others on this list have a different
opinion.  However,
I'd go with was:man_made=milk_churn_stand if it had been repurposed
in some way that it merited a different main tag.  A foolish consistency
is the hobgoblin of little minds, according to Ralph Waldo Emerson.

That leaves the question of the name.  For older British English speakers
the
containers are called milk churns, even though they are not for churning
milk.  This may cause confusion to younger speakers of British English
and those for whom English is a second language.  According to the
Wikipedia article these are sometimes referred to as milk cans so
maybe milk_can_stand would be better than milk_churn_stand.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20. Jun 2020, at 14:44, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> They should probably have disused=yes or a disused lifecycle
> prefix (cue endless arguments about which) except in parts of the world
> where they actually are still in use (if they are).

I think if any I would use disused=yes as they still remain „operational“ I 
guess, although not actually used.
The disused:key=value style seems more appropriate for functions (amenity etc.) 
than for physical descriptions (man_made).


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Jez Nicholson]

 "It's only been used once so we shouldn't
document it until it becomes popular"

Discuss and use by all means.

Thank you for providing a copy-and-paste response :)

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020, 13:44 Paul Allen,  wrote:

> Recently I was digging for some details of a farm I was mapping and came
> across a map
> of the locations of milk churn stands in the county of Ceredigion.  It
> struck me that we
> should have a way of tagging mllk churn stands.
>
> They are platforms, usually constructed from bricks or concrete,
> occasionally large
> chunks of stone, sometimes made of wood, that are usually located near the
> entrances to farms.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_churn_stand
> and https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Milk_churn_stands
>
> I consider them to be mappable because they can aid navigation and can be
> used by
> walkers as improvised tables/seats.  Probably not worth rendering on the
> standard
> map but could be rendered by walking maps.
>
> They came into use in the 19th century and fell into disuse in the UK in
> 1979
> when milk collection was entirely by tanker.  Although the Wikipedia
> article
> mentions only the UK, they were in use in other parts of the world such as
> Germany, Finland, Norway, Sweden and Estonia.  They may still be used in
> 2nd or 3rd world countries.  The purpose was for the farmer to place large
> containers of milk on the stand to  make it easier for them to be
> transferred to a
> cart (later lorry).  Although no longer used in the countries already
> mentioned, they
> are unlikely to be removed because that would take time and money and
> (usually)
> nothing would be gained.
>
> My instinct would be to use man_made=milk_churn_stand.  Checking with
> taginfo shows this has already been used once.  Overpass-turbo shows it
> was used in Germany.  I'm not entirely happy with "milk churn stand" even
> though in British English the milk containers were known as "milk churns"
> despite not being used to churn milk, but I can't think of anything better.
> Etymology of the misleading name is here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_churn
>
> The existing instance I found also included historic=yes.  I don't consider
> that should be used with most milk churn stands as it is not a synonym
> for old or disused but means it is of historical significance (most of
> these
> are not).  They should probably have disused=yes or a disused lifecycle
> prefix (cue endless arguments about which) except in parts of the world
> where they actually are still in use (if they are).
>
> Here's the map I found.  It deals only with the county of Ceredigion and
> the
> person responsible has only dealt with about half of that county so far.
> Until
> and unless I can get a response from him I don't entirely trust the
> accuracy
> of his locations and wouldn't use them anyway because of copyright (unless
> he gave permission and assurances of accuracy).  But his map gives some
> idea
> of the ubiquity of these things.
>
> https://www.lookingformaps.com/mapa.php?mapa=Stondinau-Llaeth-Ceredigion-Milk-Stands-Dr-Roger-Owen-Prifysgol-Aberystwyth-Uni
> Be patient, it takes a while for the map to load.
>
> Why do I bring all this up here?  Because I'd like to document what tag(s)
> to
> use for milk churn stands.  The person who mapped the German one as
> man_made=milk_churn_stand says he mapped another one as
> historic=milk_churn_stand because he wasn't sure of the best way to map
> them.
>
> I know, this is going to trigger the usual chicken-and-egg arguments.
> "It's only been
> used once so we shouldn't use it" and "It's only been used once so we
> shouldn't
> document it until it becomes popular" to which I'll counter "If we don't
> document
> it then people will invent their own ways of tagging these things and
> we'll end up
> with the usual mess which we can't change because all the different ways of
> mapping it are too widely used"  and "it's not a key, it's just a value."
>
> --
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[Tagging] Milk Churn Stands

[Paul Allen]

Recently I was digging for some details of a farm I was mapping and came
across a map
of the locations of milk churn stands in the county of Ceredigion.  It
struck me that we
should have a way of tagging mllk churn stands.

They are platforms, usually constructed from bricks or concrete,
occasionally large
chunks of stone, sometimes made of wood, that are usually located near the
entrances to farms.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_churn_stand
and https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Milk_churn_stands

I consider them to be mappable because they can aid navigation and can be
used by
walkers as improvised tables/seats.  Probably not worth rendering on the
standard
map but could be rendered by walking maps.

They came into use in the 19th century and fell into disuse in the UK in
1979
when milk collection was entirely by tanker.  Although the Wikipedia article
mentions only the UK, they were in use in other parts of the world such as
Germany, Finland, Norway, Sweden and Estonia.  They may still be used in
2nd or 3rd world countries.  The purpose was for the farmer to place large
containers of milk on the stand to  make it easier for them to be
transferred to a
cart (later lorry).  Although no longer used in the countries already
mentioned, they
are unlikely to be removed because that would take time and money and
(usually)
nothing would be gained.

My instinct would be to use man_made=milk_churn_stand.  Checking with
taginfo shows this has already been used once.  Overpass-turbo shows it
was used in Germany.  I'm not entirely happy with "milk churn stand" even
though in British English the milk containers were known as "milk churns"
despite not being used to churn milk, but I can't think of anything better.
Etymology of the misleading name is here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_churn

The existing instance I found also included historic=yes.  I don't consider
that should be used with most milk churn stands as it is not a synonym
for old or disused but means it is of historical significance (most of these
are not).  They should probably have disused=yes or a disused lifecycle
prefix (cue endless arguments about which) except in parts of the world
where they actually are still in use (if they are).

Here's the map I found.  It deals only with the county of Ceredigion and the
person responsible has only dealt with about half of that county so far.
Until
and unless I can get a response from him I don't entirely trust the accuracy
of his locations and wouldn't use them anyway because of copyright (unless
he gave permission and assurances of accuracy).  But his map gives some idea
of the ubiquity of these things.
https://www.lookingformaps.com/mapa.php?mapa=Stondinau-Llaeth-Ceredigion-Milk-Stands-Dr-Roger-Owen-Prifysgol-Aberystwyth-Uni
Be patient, it takes a while for the map to load.

Why do I bring all this up here?  Because I'd like to document what tag(s)
to
use for milk churn stands.  The person who mapped the German one as
man_made=milk_churn_stand says he mapped another one as
historic=milk_churn_stand because he wasn't sure of the best way to map
them.

I know, this is going to trigger the usual chicken-and-egg arguments.
"It's only been
used once so we shouldn't use it" and "It's only been used once so we
shouldn't
document it until it becomes popular" to which I'll counter "If we don't
document
it then people will invent their own ways of tagging these things and we'll
end up
with the usual mess which we can't change because all the different ways of
mapping it are too widely used"  and "it's not a key, it's just a value."

-- 
Paul
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