Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
Gilbert Hangartner kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com writes: I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. My reaction on seeing the subject was that creches are not amenities, but temporary religious displays for the holidays! But seriously, in the US, the place where people leave their children while they work is called day care. And in the US the word creche refers to a display of a manger, Mary, Joseph, baby Jesus, three wise wen, shepards, and sheep, typically about 0.25 m wide in a home, but occasionally several m wide in public, typically in front of churches. Almost always they are displayed only in Decemeber, plus or minus a bit. pgpkH9jlaUmwk.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: My understanding, as a native UK English speaker, is that a nursery is somewhere that a child attends regularly, a pre-school type place. A creche is somewhere that looks after young children for occasional short-term periods, such as in a shopping centre or a university. What is called a crèche in French is your nursery. Btw, we already find ~400 amenity=nursery in taginfo. And what is the difference between nursery and kindergarten ? age ? Pieren nb : we should really avoid special chars in standised tags. Think that not every keyboard provides an easy access to è like yours and not everyone is working exclusively with presets. It would be the same concern with Cyrillic or Chinese characters... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
Thanks Pieren! 1) keyvalue = nursery: I agree that nursery seems to match crèche. And it has no special character. This would maybe be good. I did a search for several keywords before choosing crèche, but I did not think of nursery. I'm just wondering where they are, and what they really map (I could find only 5 of them in Switzerland and they mapped exactly crèche. The 3 I found in Germany around Karlruhe are probably an childcare in a sense of a after-school, and 5 in Bruxelles, Belgium are probably also crèches. I did not find none of them in any other major city I checked around Europe and the World - Berlin, Vienna, Amsterdam, Stockholm, Oslo, Moskau, London, NewYork, LosAngeles, Rio de Janeiro, Melbourne, How can I find them all???) 2) difference between nursery/crèche/childcare -- vs. -- kindergarten/pre-school: * age: starting from 2 months -- vs. -- 3 years (UK), 4 years (Germany), 5 years (Switzerland) * time: whole day -- vs. -- some hours / only the morning * scope: Life - e.g. eating, going outdoor -- vs. -- structured playing, educational activities. Thanks, nounours Am 04.11.2013 um 11:28 schrieb Pieren: On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: My understanding, as a native UK English speaker, is that a nursery is somewhere that a child attends regularly, a pre-school type place. A creche is somewhere that looks after young children for occasional short-term periods, such as in a shopping centre or a university. What is called a crèche in French is your nursery. Btw, we already find ~400 amenity=nursery in taginfo. And what is the difference between nursery and kindergarten ? age ? Pieren nb : we should really avoid special chars in standised tags. Think that not every keyboard provides an easy access to è like yours and not everyone is working exclusively with presets. It would be the same concern with Cyrillic or Chinese characters... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
2013/11/4 Gilbert Hangartner kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com 2) difference between nursery/crèche/childcare -- vs. -- kindergarten/pre-school: * age: starting from 2 months -- vs. -- 3 years (UK), 4 years (Germany), 5 years (Switzerland) In Germany there is no such institution with the name nursery/crèche/childcare, there is a Kinderkrippe and Kindergarten and Tageskindergarten and Kindertagesstätte (or Kita) and Vorschule and Kinderhort (or Schulhort, Hort, Schülerhort) and Spielgruppe, main differences are age and opening hours. Some institutions might also combine several services in the same place (but probably different groups). AFAIK the starting age for a Kindergarten is 2-3 years, since recently there is a legally guaranteed (though effectively not available in some cases) place in a public Kindergarten for all children from 3 on. A quite important distinction for who put his kids somewhere is that of ideology/education system (public vs. religious vs. anthroposophian and maybe more --- haven't heard of any satanic kindergarten yet though). The religious aspects can be tagged with the well known tags religion=* and denomination=*, not sure for the other non formally religious ideologic colours. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
Hi there, I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. Nounours! A crèche is an institution who takes care of a child during the day, normally on a daily basis, including meals, playing activities and outdoor activities. A crèche is more a place to live than a place to learn, so it's not a pre-school, even if some educational activities might be present. A crèche is not an after-school for older children already visiting a school or a Kindergarten, even tough there a crèches where children are allowed to stay when they grow up for one or two years after they entered kindergarten/primary school and use it as an after-school, even if it's not. The service is known as child care center in the United Kingdom and Australia and day care center in North America . In german speaking countries it is known asKindertagesstätte or Kita or Hort (mainly Austria). It seems to be relevant enough to do a proper tagging, currently, there are about 2000 crèches in Switzerland, and their number is quickly growing. I do not know about Germany and Austria, but I suppose the numbers being there important as well. Another reason: Knowing where crèches are located is an important information. Some use-cases: I'm looking for an apartment. The choice will depend on available crèches in the surroundings. So having a quick overview where they are and getting contact information based on geolocalisation is important. Grandmothers and godfathers who occasionally pick up the kid need driving instructions ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
Dear Gilbert, Thank you for proposing this, I agree that there is a need for this tag. I also agree that creches are clearly distinct from kindergarten, so they should have different tags. Are you aware of the earlier efforts to propose this? See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 . Does the strong divide between creches and places for older children also exist in other countries? To prevent confusion, maybe it would be an idea to propose a tag for places for older children alongside with the creche tag? For the native speakers: is creche the most commonly used term? Is there a difference between creche and nursery? -- Matthijs On 3 November 2013 13:31, Gilbert Hangartner kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there, I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. Nounours! A crèche is an institution who takes care of a child during the day, normally on a daily basis, including meals, playing activities and outdoor activities. A crèche is more a place to live than a place to learn, so it's not a pre-school, even if some educational activities might be present. A crèche is not an after-school for older children already visiting a school or a Kindergarten, even tough there a crèches where children are allowed to stay when they grow up for one or two years after they entered kindergarten/primary school and use it as an after-school, even if it's not. The service is known as child care center in the United Kingdom and Australia and day care center in North America . In german speaking countries it is known asKindertagesstätte or Kita or Hort (mainly Austria). It seems to be relevant enough to do a proper tagging, currently, there are about 2000 crèches in Switzerland, and their number is quickly growing. I do not know about Germany and Austria, but I suppose the numbers being there important as well. Another reason: Knowing where crèches are located is an important information. Some use-cases: I'm looking for an apartment. The choice will depend on available crèches in the surroundings. So having a quick overview where they are and getting contact information based on geolocalisation is important. Grandmothers and godfathers who occasionally pick up the kid need driving instructions ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
On Sun, 2013-11-03 at 13:56 +, Matthijs Melissen wrote: For the native speakers: is creche the most commonly used term? Is there a difference between creche and nursery? My understanding, as a native UK English speaker, is that a nursery is somewhere that a child attends regularly, a pre-school type place. A creche is somewhere that looks after young children for occasional short-term periods, such as in a shopping centre or a university. Where a child can be left whilst the parent does something else, such as shopping or attends a lecture. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
Dear Matthijs, Thanks very much for pointing me to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 I wasn't aware of this!!! For the rest, I tried to make it clear in the proposal how to deal with other kinds of childcare ... but I will first try to merge with childcare2.0 and then see further .. thanks! Gilbert Am 03.11.2013 um 14:56 schrieb Matthijs Melissen: Dear Gilbert, Thank you for proposing this, I agree that there is a need for this tag. I also agree that creches are clearly distinct from kindergarten, so they should have different tags. Are you aware of the earlier efforts to propose this? See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 . Does the strong divide between creches and places for older children also exist in other countries? To prevent confusion, maybe it would be an idea to propose a tag for places for older children alongside with the creche tag? For the native speakers: is creche the most commonly used term? Is there a difference between creche and nursery? -- Matthijs On 3 November 2013 13:31, Gilbert Hangartner kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there, I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. Nounours! A crèche is an institution who takes care of a child during the day, normally on a daily basis, including meals, playing activities and outdoor activities. A crèche is more a place to live than a place to learn, so it's not a pre-school, even if some educational activities might be present. A crèche is not an after-school for older children already visiting a school or a Kindergarten, even tough there a crèches where children are allowed to stay when they grow up for one or two years after they entered kindergarten/primary school and use it as an after-school, even if it's not. The service is known as child care center in the United Kingdom and Australia and day care center in North America . In german speaking countries it is known asKindertagesstätte or Kita or Hort (mainly Austria). It seems to be relevant enough to do a proper tagging, currently, there are about 2000 crèches in Switzerland, and their number is quickly growing. I do not know about Germany and Austria, but I suppose the numbers being there important as well. Another reason: Knowing where crèches are located is an important information. Some use-cases: I'm looking for an apartment. The choice will depend on available crèches in the surroundings. So having a quick overview where they are and getting contact information based on geolocalisation is important. Grandmothers and godfathers who occasionally pick up the kid need driving instructions ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
On 2013-11-03 14:31, Gilbert Hangartner wrote : Hi there, I wrote a proposal to correctly tag "Crèches" or "Childcare-centres" or "Daycare-centrers" or "Kindertagesstätte". Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. amenity=creche According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crèche and .../creche, as well as all non-foreign dictionaries, the spelling is "crèche", not "creche". Why make spelling mistakes? Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
Hi André, I first wrote crèche, obviously. Then I sent a mail to the mailing list, and the è was not rendered correctly. So I concluded that having a non-ascii character in a tag might be more of a nuisance … I'm french speaking and would obviously prefer a è. Can you point me to some information how this kind of questions is treated in OSM? nounours Am 03.11.2013 um 15:44 schrieb André Pirard: On 2013-11-03 14:31, Gilbert Hangartner wrote : Hi there, I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. amenity=creche According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crèche and .../creche, as well as all non-foreign dictionaries, the spelling is crèche, not creche. Why make spelling mistakes? Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
In Brazil, kids up to 5 years old can stay at either a private facility (creche) or a state-run facility (escola infantil). These are currently being mapped as kindergartens here. Preschool is a preparatory 1-year course offered by regular schools, so these are not mapped as kindergartens here. Linguistic note: kindergarten literally translates to jardim de infância which is the former name of preschools in Brazil. On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Gilbert Hangartner kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi André, I first wrote crèche, obviously. Then I sent a mail to the mailing list, and the è was not rendered correctly. So I concluded that having a non-ascii character in a tag might be more of a nuisance … I'm french speaking and would obviously prefer a è. Can you point me to some information how this kind of questions is treated in OSM? nounours Am 03.11.2013 um 15:44 schrieb André Pirard: On 2013-11-03 14:31, Gilbert Hangartner wrote : Hi there, I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. amenity=creche According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crèche and .../creche, as well as all non-foreign dictionaries, the spelling is crèche, not creche. Why make spelling mistakes? Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
On 2013-11-03 17:07, Gilbert Hangartner wrote : Hi André, I first wrote crèche, obviously. Then I sent a mail to the mailing list, and the è was not rendered correctly. So I concluded that having a non-ascii character in a tag might be more of a nuisance … I'm french speaking and would obviously prefer a è. Can you point me to some information how this kind of questions is treated in OSM? nounours Bonsoir https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1xj_LQg-oI Nounours https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtVUOru8YM, The bible speaks of that http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6#General_information: Any payload is in XML form, using the MIME type text/xml and UTF-8 character encoding, ... [hence the database...] but most of all this page, very explicitly http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like#Characters. There was also a page whose discussion was very positive about UTF-8, can't find it any more. The choice of a key or value is not a matter of character set but of understanding, English being the mostly used common language between people talking different languages. Contrary to what certain people claim, no more that a Chinese character is typographically an assembly of little signs, è is not an accent on an e. It used to be like that before 1985, when people used e backspace accent with Wordstar on CP/M computers, but that's now ancient history. It should be noticed that the new 8859-1 code that made è a single character is also (almost) the ANSI code (American National Standards Institute). All that has been swept away by a single worldwide code ISO 10646, shortly said, aka UNICODE, aka UTF-8 that the world waited for decades. There is now no reason to use anything else. No more than tagging for the renderer, UTF-8 must not be avoided because of a few bugs here and there. Just as the renderer must be fixed, they say, so must the bugs. Cordialement, Papou. Am 03.11.2013 um 15:44 schrieb André Pirard: On 2013-11-03 14:31, Gilbert Hangartner wrote : Hi there, I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. amenity=creche According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crèche and .../creche, as well as all non-foreign dictionaries, the spelling is crèche, not creche. Why make spelling mistakes? Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
