Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
Am 02.11.2013 20:43, schrieb Fernando Trebien: I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city, etc.). Classifying like this probably works well when the entire road system is well maintained. In Brazil, however, we had tons of discussions on how to do it and ended up deciding (though reluctantly) to classify based on several objective structural characteristics that seemed closely related to importance. That is mostly because many regional/municipal roads are definitely more important (thus, preferable) than other, smaller national roads. Here's what we ended up with: http://i.imgur.com/YH8azIA.png Please, do not use living_street the way you have it in your picture. Living_street is a special case and has to be signed individually. It is one major mistake in OSM-Historie and should be changed to highway=*, living_street=yes like motorroad and bicycle_road. As already said, if one classification does not exist in a country just do not use it. On the other hand classification is not always that easy and if politics get involved it gets even more tricky. In my area traffic was split on two roads running almost parallel but one has a restriction on weight. I ended up with two primaries as one has much traffic but the otherone is the route for hgv. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
Hello fly, Thank you for your concern. I'm glad we agree that classification is a hard topic sometimes. First, the graph is intended for mapping within Brazil and not overseas. I don't wanna delve too deeply in the details of our discussion (it would probably be long, boring and maybe only interesting for Brazilians themselves), but I can assure you that when we established those definitions we were trying to make our mapping style as compatible with the rest of the world as possible. And by we I mean I was not alone - many active users participated, the graph had many candidate forms before we agreed this was probably the best we could do for now. Best in terms of balancing clarity (objectivity), complexity (how hard is the decision-making process) and quality of the end result (the map). The graph hasn't changed in the last 6 months and we only have two Brazilian-borne complaints in queue since then, one of which is minor, the other a little harder (but already being addressed) and none related to living streets. So, you're right, living streets do not exist in Brazil according to the strictest definitions of OSM (a legally designated road where pedestrians have right of way over cars). However, I disagree that they should not be used here at all. Brazil has no primaries, secondaries or tertiaries, it has arteries, collectors and local streets, national, state and municipal roads, and so on. These concepts are mapped to OSM, with local adaptations, right? Many definitions are left open in OSM; for instance, we had heated debates on how to distinguish track, path and footway. When we reached out for the international community, we discovered that each country has its own definition, often more or less incompatible with that of other countries. Then, there are a few people who think it is useful to map the concept of living streets to some sort of warning system for drivers. Those who would benefit most from this would be tourists, certainly. There are places with poor infrastructure that simply force pedestrians to share space with vehicles. There are places where this sharing is simply part of the local culture. For all practical matters, these places function pretty much like living streets (heavy pedestrian traffic sharing space with vehicles, which are then forced to slow down considerably), just without the legal requirement. A distracted driver that does not know these facts has a higher chance of causing an accident. And if the driver knew about these streets beforehand, he/she would usually prefer to avoid them, thus affecting routing decisions. All that is valuable local knowledge. On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 12:10 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 02.11.2013 20:43, schrieb Fernando Trebien: I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city, etc.). Classifying like this probably works well when the entire road system is well maintained. In Brazil, however, we had tons of discussions on how to do it and ended up deciding (though reluctantly) to classify based on several objective structural characteristics that seemed closely related to importance. That is mostly because many regional/municipal roads are definitely more important (thus, preferable) than other, smaller national roads. Here's what we ended up with: http://i.imgur.com/YH8azIA.png Please, do not use living_street the way you have it in your picture. Living_street is a special case and has to be signed individually. It is one major mistake in OSM-Historie and should be changed to highway=*, living_street=yes like motorroad and bicycle_road. As already said, if one classification does not exist in a country just do not use it. On the other hand classification is not always that easy and if politics get involved it gets even more tricky. In my area traffic was split on two roads running almost parallel but one has a restriction on weight. I ended up with two primaries as one has much traffic but the otherone is the route for hgv. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
Hi Fernando Still think you should not change the meaning of a key but use an new/own key or even only a subkey for the other existing values considering living_street. Actually, I am in favour of deprecating living_street as it is already used for too many different cases and wrong in concept (at least for the original intention). Comming back to highway=* we do not attribute who is maintaining the road nor if it is a called and signed as national, state and municipal roads but we use it to tell about the importance of the road within the traffic network and about the number of motor_vehicles using the road. cheers fly Am 03.11.2013 18:35, schrieb Fernando Trebien: Hello fly, Thank you for your concern. I'm glad we agree that classification is a hard topic sometimes. First, the graph is intended for mapping within Brazil and not overseas. I don't wanna delve too deeply in the details of our discussion (it would probably be long, boring and maybe only interesting for Brazilians themselves), but I can assure you that when we established those definitions we were trying to make our mapping style as compatible with the rest of the world as possible. And by we I mean I was not alone - many active users participated, the graph had many candidate forms before we agreed this was probably the best we could do for now. Best in terms of balancing clarity (objectivity), complexity (how hard is the decision-making process) and quality of the end result (the map). The graph hasn't changed in the last 6 months and we only have two Brazilian-borne complaints in queue since then, one of which is minor, the other a little harder (but already being addressed) and none related to living streets. So, you're right, living streets do not exist in Brazil according to the strictest definitions of OSM (a legally designated road where pedestrians have right of way over cars). However, I disagree that they should not be used here at all. Brazil has no primaries, secondaries or tertiaries, it has arteries, collectors and local streets, national, state and municipal roads, and so on. These concepts are mapped to OSM, with local adaptations, right? Many definitions are left open in OSM; for instance, we had heated debates on how to distinguish track, path and footway. When we reached out for the international community, we discovered that each country has its own definition, often more or less incompatible with that of other countries. Then, there are a few people who think it is useful to map the concept of living streets to some sort of warning system for drivers. Those who would benefit most from this would be tourists, certainly. There are places with poor infrastructure that simply force pedestrians to share space with vehicles. There are places where this sharing is simply part of the local culture. For all practical matters, these places function pretty much like living streets (heavy pedestrian traffic sharing space with vehicles, which are then forced to slow down considerably), just without the legal requirement. A distracted driver that does not know these facts has a higher chance of causing an accident. And if the driver knew about these streets beforehand, he/she would usually prefer to avoid them, thus affecting routing decisions. All that is valuable local knowledge. On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 12:10 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 02.11.2013 20:43, schrieb Fernando Trebien: I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city, etc.). Classifying like this probably works well when the entire road system is well maintained. In Brazil, however, we had tons of discussions on how to do it and ended up deciding (though reluctantly) to classify based on several objective structural characteristics that seemed closely related to importance. That is mostly because many regional/municipal roads are definitely more important (thus, preferable) than other, smaller national roads. Here's what we ended up with: http://i.imgur.com/YH8azIA.png Please, do not use living_street the way you have it in your picture. Living_street is a special case and has to be signed individually. It is one major mistake in OSM-Historie and should be changed to highway=*, living_street=yes like motorroad and bicycle_road. As already said, if one classification does not exist in a country just do not use it. On the other hand classification is not always that easy and if politics get involved it gets even more tricky. In my area traffic was split on two roads running almost parallel but one has a restriction on weight. I ended up with two primaries as one has much traffic but the otherone is the route for hgv. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
If we use a new key, no apps would support it, until the Brazilian community grows enough to start building its own apps. Indeed, as discussions progressed, we began associating importance primarily with traffic intensity and less with city connectivity. But again, we would have to measure traffic objectively to classify like that, so we picked observable structural characteristics that correlate with traffic intensity. Importance was also associated with safety, where lacking infrastructure (such as hard shoulders) implicitly represents the (lack of) importance assigned by the state. This is reinforced by the fact that the state itself publishes a map where roads are classified by several structural characteristics (most of which are part of the decision flow now). The only published alternative classifies by administration level - which, as I said, we found almost completely useless. How many vehicles do you assume for each type of road? And how do you measure it? Note: I've felt the need for quaternaries and then thought that ideally we should simply change the idea of road hierarchy into a numeric tag, like admin_level. But given the length of the current tradition, it seemed absurd to propose this. On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 4:12 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Fernando Still think you should not change the meaning of a key but use an new/own key or even only a subkey for the other existing values considering living_street. Actually, I am in favour of deprecating living_street as it is already used for too many different cases and wrong in concept (at least for the original intention). Comming back to highway=* we do not attribute who is maintaining the road nor if it is a called and signed as national, state and municipal roads but we use it to tell about the importance of the road within the traffic network and about the number of motor_vehicles using the road. cheers fly Am 03.11.2013 18:35, schrieb Fernando Trebien: Hello fly, Thank you for your concern. I'm glad we agree that classification is a hard topic sometimes. First, the graph is intended for mapping within Brazil and not overseas. I don't wanna delve too deeply in the details of our discussion (it would probably be long, boring and maybe only interesting for Brazilians themselves), but I can assure you that when we established those definitions we were trying to make our mapping style as compatible with the rest of the world as possible. And by we I mean I was not alone - many active users participated, the graph had many candidate forms before we agreed this was probably the best we could do for now. Best in terms of balancing clarity (objectivity), complexity (how hard is the decision-making process) and quality of the end result (the map). The graph hasn't changed in the last 6 months and we only have two Brazilian-borne complaints in queue since then, one of which is minor, the other a little harder (but already being addressed) and none related to living streets. So, you're right, living streets do not exist in Brazil according to the strictest definitions of OSM (a legally designated road where pedestrians have right of way over cars). However, I disagree that they should not be used here at all. Brazil has no primaries, secondaries or tertiaries, it has arteries, collectors and local streets, national, state and municipal roads, and so on. These concepts are mapped to OSM, with local adaptations, right? Many definitions are left open in OSM; for instance, we had heated debates on how to distinguish track, path and footway. When we reached out for the international community, we discovered that each country has its own definition, often more or less incompatible with that of other countries. Then, there are a few people who think it is useful to map the concept of living streets to some sort of warning system for drivers. Those who would benefit most from this would be tourists, certainly. There are places with poor infrastructure that simply force pedestrians to share space with vehicles. There are places where this sharing is simply part of the local culture. For all practical matters, these places function pretty much like living streets (heavy pedestrian traffic sharing space with vehicles, which are then forced to slow down considerably), just without the legal requirement. A distracted driver that does not know these facts has a higher chance of causing an accident. And if the driver knew about these streets beforehand, he/she would usually prefer to avoid them, thus affecting routing decisions. All that is valuable local knowledge. On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 12:10 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 02.11.2013 20:43, schrieb Fernando Trebien: I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city, etc.). Classifying like this probably works well when the entire road
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
+1 (similar to our discussion here in Brazil) On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 5:07 PM, Jonathan bigfatfro...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry if I've not seen the old posts on this, the wiki pages are contradictory which is why I asked the question. In the UK we are defining Trunk or Primary based on some arbitrary definition not on anything that is of use to any user or renderer. What we should be mapping is reality, so that people can use that data to build on. Whether a road is signed in Green, Pink or Purple tells a user nothing, it may have a legal definition but that is all. The tag we give it should tell the user something about the road's capabilities, importance, size and potential timings/traffic flow. A Trunk road that is a dual carriageway with a maxspeed of 70 mph is very different to a Trunk road that winds around fields and has a maxspeed of 50 mph or less! Jonathan http://bigfatfrog67.me On 03/11/2013 00:14, Tom Hughes wrote: On 02/11/13 18:47, Jonathan wrote: I'm not clear with the distinction of a Trunk road in the UK. The wiki suggests a trunk road is high performance roads that don't meet the requirement for highway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway=motorway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway which to me would suggest an A road that is a dual carriageway. Further on in the wiki it says that any A road in the UK signed with Green signs is a Trunk road. I know of many Green A roads that aren't much more than country lanes, they are definitely not high performance and I don't feel they should be Trunk roads, I feel they should be Primary roads. It's really very simple, and has been discussed here many, many times before and I'm sure there are multiple pages on the wiki covering it. First, forget the question of which roads are formally designated as trunk roads by the Department for Transport (which is not very many these days). Second, understand that there is something called the Primary Route Network defined by DfT which covers those A roads connecting specific major towns. Those are the A roads with the green signs, and are what we tag as highway=trunk. Other A roads are highway=primary. In many cases those will be major roads, often ex trunk roads, but in more rural areas like the highlands they might look more like a B road does in other parts of the country. That is irrelevant though. In the UK it is really only residential/unclassified/tertiary where you need to make a judgement call. Everything else has a well defined mapping: Motorways = highway=motorway Green Signed A Roads = highway=trunk White Signed A Roads = highway=primary B Roads = highway=secondary Hopefully that will explain everything ;-) Tom ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
This question is really aimed at UK roads but the same may apply to other countries. I'm not clear with the distinction of a Trunk road in the UK. The wiki suggests a trunk road is high performance roads that don't meet the requirement for highway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway=motorway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway which to me would suggest an A road that is a dual carriageway. Further on in the wiki it says that any A road in the UK signed with Green signs is a Trunk road. I know of many Green A roads that aren't much more than country lanes, they are definitely not high performance and I don't feel they should be Trunk roads, I feel they should be Primary roads. Where do we draw the line? (No pun intended) Thoughts? Jonathan -- http://bigfatfrog67.me ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
On 02/11/13 18:47, Jonathan wrote: This question is really aimed at UK roads but the same may apply to other countries. I'm not clear with the distinction of a Trunk road in the UK. The wiki suggests a trunk road is high performance roads that don't meet the requirement for highway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway=motorway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway which to me would suggest an A road that is a dual carriageway. Further on in the wiki it says that any A road in the UK signed with Green signs is a Trunk road. I know of many Green A roads that aren't much more than country lanes, they are definitely not high performance and I don't feel they should be Trunk roads, I feel they should be Primary roads. Perhaps you might like to see this question from the help system: https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/228/uk-road-was-detrunked-why-does-osm-still-have-it-tagged-highwaytrunk -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city, etc.). Classifying like this probably works well when the entire road system is well maintained. In Brazil, however, we had tons of discussions on how to do it and ended up deciding (though reluctantly) to classify based on several objective structural characteristics that seemed closely related to importance. That is mostly because many regional/municipal roads are definitely more important (thus, preferable) than other, smaller national roads. Here's what we ended up with: http://i.imgur.com/YH8azIA.png On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 4:56 PM, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: On 02/11/13 18:47, Jonathan wrote: This question is really aimed at UK roads but the same may apply to other countries. I'm not clear with the distinction of a Trunk road in the UK. The wiki suggests a trunk road is high performance roads that don't meet the requirement for highway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway=motorway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway which to me would suggest an A road that is a dual carriageway. Further on in the wiki it says that any A road in the UK signed with Green signs is a Trunk road. I know of many Green A roads that aren't much more than country lanes, they are definitely not high performance and I don't feel they should be Trunk roads, I feel they should be Primary roads. Perhaps you might like to see this question from the help system: https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/228/uk-road-was-detrunked-why-does-osm-still-have-it-tagged-highwaytrunk -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
Am 02/nov/2013 um 20:43 schrieb Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city, etc.). in Germany they are not, don't know about Argentinia. The basic principle is the creation of a hierarchical network and that should be possible to realize everywhere. It's the importance in the network that determines the road class, in some cases there are also legal criteria to take into account (motorway, cycle way etc) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
Hm I may have misread about Germany then. The mais problem we discussed here in Brazil is getting everyone to agree with some vague subjective sense of importance, specially when deciding between two somewhat similar classifications (such as between secondary and tertiary). On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 02/nov/2013 um 20:43 schrieb Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city, etc.). in Germany they are not, don't know about Argentinia. The basic principle is the creation of a hierarchical network and that should be possible to realize everywhere. It's the importance in the network that determines the road class, in some cases there are also legal criteria to take into account (motorway, cycle way etc) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
2013/11/2 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com Hm I may have misread about Germany then. The mais problem we discussed here in Brazil is getting everyone to agree with some vague subjective sense of importance, specially when deciding between two somewhat similar classifications (such as between secondary and tertiary). it doesn't really matter ;-) btw, IMHO secondary are more similar to primaries than they are to tertiaries, as both are long range connections, while tertiaries aren't generally long range connections. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 10:37 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: btw, IMHO secondary are more similar to primaries than they are to tertiaries, as both are long range connections, while tertiaries aren't generally long range connections. Brazilians could also decide that they don't need trunk because they don't have something equivalent localy. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
2013/11/2 Pieren pier...@gmail.com btw, IMHO secondary are more similar to primaries than they are to tertiaries, as both are long range connections, while tertiaries aren't generally long range connections. Brazilians could also decide that they don't need trunk because they don't have something equivalent localy. in Italy and Germany we use trunk for roads that are similar to motorways but aren't legally motorways (i.e. they don't have level crossings or traffic lights, they do have separated carriageways and ramps), and which might in some exceptional cases allow for bicyles or pedestrians (if those are forbidden we use an additional attribute: motorroad=yes). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
