Re: [Tagging] Rendering of individual power lines in residential areas on default osm-carto

[François Lacombe]

It may be hard to obtain rendering support and presets without key names,
don't you ?

François
Le 16 mars 2015 00:36, "Bryce Nesbitt"  a écrit :

> What's key here is not so much the exact tagging names, but gaining preset
> and rendering support.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Rendering of individual power lines in residential areas on default osm-carto

[Bryce Nesbitt]

What's key here is not so much the exact tagging names, but gaining preset
and rendering support.
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Re: [Tagging] Rendering of individual power lines in residential areas on default osm-carto

[François Lacombe]

Regarding the power=minor_line tag vs distribution :

This problem is currently discussed in the Power path refinement proposal
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_transmission_refinement
and
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_paths_refinement

Link to Talk :
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Power_paths_refinement#line.3D.2A_and_cable.3D.2A:_similarity_and_difference

power=line + usage=distribution or power=line + usage=transmission sounds
better than line / minor_line.
+1 with Bryce to say transmission/distribution (IEC 601-01-09

and 601-01-10
)
is far better than minor/major but the proposal hasn't been voted yet.

Feel free to complete it according to your needs.

All the best



*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux 

2015-03-15 18:04 GMT+01:00 Bryce Nesbitt :

> On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 8:46 AM, Kytömaa Lauri 
> wrote:
>>
>> power=minor_line renders already and describes these better. Physically
>> smaller things than those thicker wires on big towers with long spans and
>> high voltage.
>
>
> "minor" requires a judgement call.  "distribution" is a cleaner dividing
> line.
> --
> What's not clean is  having a street map cluttered up with distribution
> power lines.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Rendering of individual power lines in residential areas on default osm-carto

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 8:46 AM, Kytömaa Lauri 
wrote:
>
> power=minor_line renders already and describes these better. Physically
> smaller things than those thicker wires on big towers with long spans and
> high voltage.


"minor" requires a judgement call.  "distribution" is a cleaner dividing
line.
--
What's not clean is  having a street map cluttered up with distribution
power lines.
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Re: [Tagging] Rendering of individual power lines in residential areas on default osm-carto

[Kytömaa Lauri]

Greg Troxel wrote:
>Bryce Nesbitt  writes:
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/37.64529/-118.97450

>  There's a big difference between "transmission" and "distribution".
>  Those may be US terms, but I think the concept is pretty universal:
>  there are fairly high-voltage pretty serious lines connecting
>  generation and substations in towns/etc. and then a network from teh


power=minor_line renders already and describes these better. Physically smaller 
things than those thicker wires on big towers with long spans and high voltage.

--
alv

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Re: [Tagging] Rendering of individual power lines in residential areas on default osm-carto

[Greg Troxel]

Bryce Nesbitt  writes:

> Have a peek here to see what residential power lines might look like, if
> added to the database:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/37.64529/-118.97450

A few thoughts:

  There's a big difference between "transmission" and "distribution".
  Those may be US terms, but I think the concept is pretty universal:
  there are fairly high-voltage pretty serious lines connecting
  generation and substations in towns/etc. and then a network from teh
  substations to customers.  Around me the tranmisstion to the
  substation is 115K and the distribution is 13.8K max.  So obviously
  power lines should be tagged as to whether they are transmission vs
  distribution.

  As one zooms in, more detail beceomes reasonable.  I would say
  rendering distribution at z18 is reasonable, maybe z17.  The problem
  is that these show up at z14.

  Probably distrbution should be only a pixel, not what seems like more.


Sorry, no patch.  Setting up mapnik/carto is still on my todo list.


pgpW5DEGVyJlY.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: [Tagging] Rendering of individual power lines in residential areas on default osm-carto

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 12 March 2015 at 02:21, johnw  wrote:

> I opened a ticket in which I was told it was my fault for thinking it it
> was a bad idea and to stop complaining or claiming persecution (which was
> really really weird).
>

Just to be clear, this was not a comment by one of the maintainers of the
style.

The issue is still open, which simply means nobody has gotten yet to
implementing this. If you want to speed things up, feel free to write a
pull request.

-- Matthijs
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Re: [Tagging] Rendering of individual power lines in residential areas on default osm-carto

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Tim Waters  wrote:

> In the UK, in urban areas, it is more common to see telephone wires (and
> poles) in residential streets than power lines, but again not many mappers
> have mapped them. I also think that they are not being rendered currently
> in the OSM style.
>

Have a peek here to see what residential power lines might look like, if
added to the database:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/37.64529/-118.97450
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Re: [Tagging] Rendering of individual power lines in residential areas on default osm-carto

[Tim Waters]

Just a couple of observations.

The first is that there are not many such elements in urban areas for the
"problem" to become an obvious one. This will change if more mappers add
power lines and these examples become more obvious.

In the UK, in urban areas, it is more common to see telephone wires (and
poles) in residential streets than power lines, but again not many mappers
have mapped them. I also think that they are not being rendered currently
in the OSM style.

Cheers,

Tim

On 11 March 2015 at 22:20, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

> Have a peek at: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/37.64529/-118.97450
>
> Where individual residential power lines are rendered in a cluttered way.
> What dividing line can the tagging offer here, to allow rendering to make
> better choices?
> Here the mapper made some attempt to call these residential lines, but not
> enough
> to dissuade osm-carto.
>
> ---
> Separately,what do people think of this "lite" power tagging scheme as a
> solution?
>
> *highway*={any}
> *utility_wires*={overhead,underground,none,unknown}
>
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Re: [Tagging] Rendering of individual power lines in residential areas on default osm-carto

[johnw]

I really dislike strong black renderings for power lines, if they are rendered 
at all. 

I opened a ticket in which I was told it was my fault for thinking it it was a 
bad idea and to stop complaining or claiming persecution (which was really 
really weird). Others mentioned that the stylesheet may be updated in the 
future. Flexibility of the stylesheet is a must to adapt to local conditions 
and labeling customs,  in the same way the map accommodates languages other 
than English. 

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1260


In OSM, so many things man made, especially ways, go from light colors (local 
roads) to brighter colors (Tollways, trunk roads) to how importance. Black 
lines are walls and barriers of some kind - embankments, bridge casings, 
retaining walls, or a mode of transportation, aerialways or the like. 

Then, for some bizarre reason, there are black power lines. You can see the 
towers, but the lines are not a barrier to movement, not a (human) 
transportation method, and look like retaining walls over the road. 

They should not be rendered in -carto at all, or at best a very light grey line 
- anything but a solid black wall/areialway running across/over streets and 
hillsides, train lines, and whatnot when they serve no transportation purpose 
nor offer any barrier. 

it is a direct conflict to the stylesheet. 

Also:

Having the trunk lines rendered is a big negative, though the towers are 
visible landmarks. the local lines are less important than hedges or walls. 
they are background noise. 

There are so many neighboorhood wires here in Japan that every neighborhood 
would like a plate of black spaghetti. The amount of wires, even in rural 
areas, is surprising. In suburban areas, the mess would be catastrophic.

rural https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/11091291246/in/set-72157638113676925 
  

suburban 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/javbw/11091343673/in/set-72157638113676925 
 



and, when combined with other rendering choices, the problem is compounded.


In certain countries (such as the one I am in) the thick black line has a 
single purpose - private train lines. The zebra striped lines -carto uses are 
for national lines only (JR lines in Japan), and the thick black lines are for 
private railways (such as most of the Tokyo subway system) that run across the 
country. Two of the three train lines in my city should be black lines. So 
thick black trunk lines makes it look like there are train lines all over my 
province that don’t exist, which is a real detriment to the OSM/-carto render 
in Japan. adding neighborhood lines would be even worse. 

This system of labeling was adopted in Japan to more easily differentiate the 
lines and systems sometime between 1945 and 1965, as I have official city maps 
for my area from 1921, 1945, 1965, and 2007.  The 1965 map uses the labeling 
all Japanese maps and other websites use now, which is not possible to 
implement currently in -carto. This makes the map the odd-man-out and much more 
difficult to orient yourself on at important city-wide zoom levels, and 
confusing in areas where different train lines meet. 

The inability to properly render train lines in a manner used the by local 
populations *around the world* (not just for me and my little area, as was 
claimed) and using the zebra stripe for all standard train lines is a detriment 
to the map. coupled with the unnecessary prominence of the power lines,  these 
two issues create a very bad combination in some places, though it is 
particularly bad in Japan.  


 Javbw




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Re: [Tagging] Rendering of individual power lines in residential areas on default osm-carto

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 4:35 PM, François Lacombe  wrote:

> I don't agree to use highway=* + utility_wires because of the lack of
> information it introduces.
> The member nodes of the highway=* way won't reflect the real position of
> (and some other details about) the poles supporting utilities networks
> beside the road.
>

I don't care to map to a greater level of detail.  So the utility_wires tag
adds *more* information than *no* information.
I do of course realize this is less detail than tagging each pole, lamp
stand and bird nest.

--
That said, the two schemes don't seem particularly incompatible either.

The utility undergrounding information, even just on a road by road basis,
is important in terms
of emergency services and after huge storms.  In California where I live
communities vie for conversion
to underground utilities for these reasons among others.

---
The rendering folks need fairly simple rules to go by.
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Re: [Tagging] Rendering of individual power lines in residential areas on default osm-carto

[François Lacombe]

Hi Bryce,

If find your example really good, thank you to have find such a nice place
:)

I don't agree to use highway=* + utility_wires because of the lack of
information it introduces.
The member nodes of the highway=* way won't reflect the real position of
(and some other details about) the poles supporting utilities networks
beside the road.

Since only the render is affected by such a level of details, only the
render should be updated.
Those power lines can be selected by their voltage=low tag.
As it has already been discussed here and on several wiki Talk pages,
voltage - not the one but part of - some serious scale factors to get the
importance of power lines.


Currently, power lines are concerned by a few proposals :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_supports_refinement
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_paths_refinement


All the best


*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux 

2015-03-11 23:20 GMT+01:00 Bryce Nesbitt :

> Have a peek at: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/37.64529/-118.97450
>
> Where individual residential power lines are rendered in a cluttered way.
> What dividing line can the tagging offer here, to allow rendering to make
> better choices?
> Here the mapper made some attempt to call these residential lines, but not
> enough
> to dissuade osm-carto.
>
> ---
> Separately,what do people think of this "lite" power tagging scheme as a
> solution?
>
> *highway*={any}
> *utility_wires*={overhead,underground,none,unknown}
>
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[Tagging] Rendering of individual power lines in residential areas on default osm-carto

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Have a peek at: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/37.64529/-118.97450

Where individual residential power lines are rendered in a cluttered way.
What dividing line can the tagging offer here, to allow rendering to make
better choices?
Here the mapper made some attempt to call these residential lines, but not
enough
to dissuade osm-carto.

---
Separately,what do people think of this "lite" power tagging scheme as a
solution?

*highway*={any}
*utility_wires*={overhead,underground,none,unknown}
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