Re: [Tagging] Tagging and rendering places without a name

[Warin]

On 21/4/20 6:59 pm, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Am Di., 21. Apr. 2020 um 06:03 Uhr schrieb Warin 
<61sundow...@gmail.com >:


So by the definition I see no issue of having place without a name
tag, as long as it has a name :)
Errr If it has a name, tag it. If you don't know its name then how
do you know it is a place?



for example settlements. You might assume that a human settlement has 
a name. Humans are like this, they assign names to important (for 
them) things to facilitate communication about them. On the other 
hand, without on the ground knowledge, you will not be able to know 
the name. It is completely logical that remote mappers will add 
hamlets, villages (and in the past probably even towns) from aerial 
imagery, without knowing their name.



A remote mapper may map landuse=residential.. and that will render. 
However a remote mapper may not be able to distinguish the difference 
between a hamlet and a village particularly where cultural difference 
exist.
I would encourage the remote mapper to map landuse and leave the place 
tag alone.


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging and rendering places without a name

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 21. Apr. 2020 um 06:03 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> So by the definition I see no issue of having place without a name tag, as
> long as it has a name :)
>
> Errr If it has a name, tag it. If you don't know its name then how do you
> know it is a place?
>


for example settlements. You might assume that a human settlement has a
name. Humans are like this, they assign names to important (for them)
things to facilitate communication about them. On the other hand, without
on the ground knowledge, you will not be able to know the name. It is
completely logical that remote mappers will add hamlets, villages (and in
the past probably even towns) from aerial imagery, without knowing their
name.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging and rendering places without a name

[Florimond Berthoux]

Le mar. 21 avr. 2020 à 06:03, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :

> On 21/4/20 5:31 am, Florimond Berthoux wrote:
>
> Hi Hidde, welcome,
>
> The wiki definition is « Used to indicate that a particular location is
> known by a particular name, to indicate what sort of "place" it is. A place
> tag should exist for every significant human settlements (city, town,
> suburb, etc.) and also for notable unpopulated, named places. »
>
> So place is used to precise that :
> 1. there is place at this position or on this area
> 2. it has a name
> 3. to define what kind of place
>
> So by the definition I see no issue of having place without a name tag, as
> long as it has a name :)
>
> Errr If it has a name, tag it. If you don't know its name then how do you
> know it is a place?
>

Ask the mappers who do that, I guess that mapping a village or a town on
remote you can guess it has a name without knowing it.

>
> This is different than landuse for instance :
> A farm has the landuse farmyard, and may have other landuse like
> greenhouse_horticulture, plant_nursery, orchard, meadow, ...
> A barn alone or with some other building in the middle of a meadow can has
> landuse=farmyard but it’s not a farm, it could has a place=locality if it
> has a name.
>
>
> If a building has a name then use the name tag on the building, do not add
> a tag place=* to it!
>
I was talking about the place of the barn and around the barn, not the barn
itself of course.


>
>
>
> Le sam. 18 avr. 2020 à 22:23, Hidde Wieringa  a
> écrit :
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> This is the first time posting to this mailing list. In case this is the
>> wrong place to post my question, feel free to point me to the correct
>> mailing list/forum.
>>
>> I opened an issue in the OSM carto Github repository (
>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4115) with
>> the question if places tagged with place=* but without a name could be
>> rendered. The follow-up pull request
>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/4120 proposes a
>> rendering for unnamed places.
>>
>> A discussion erupted, about the conceptual consequences of rendering a
>> place without a name. This goes against the wiki (
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place) where the tag name=* is
>> marked as required. The first line in the wiki is *"Used to indicate
>> that a particular location is known by a particular name, to indicate what
>> sort of "place" it is. [...]"*. However indicating what sort of place it
>> is, does not require a name. Indicating that a place of some sort exists at
>> a certain location is also valuable data (a quick count of Nigeria gives
>> ~9800 nodes of places without a name versus ~69000 nodes of places with a
>> name).
>>
>> I wish to question the assumption that every place always has or requires
>> a name. The comment of 'sommerluk' on the Github issue (
>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4115#issuecomment-612847759)
>> indicates that there may indeed be small populated places without a name,
>> although larger populated places always have a name in practice.
>>
>> Also, regions of the world where on-the-ground mapping is not popular
>> will mostly be mapped by remote mappers. Because of that, mapped places
>> will usually not get a name (yet), because mappers are not locally familiar
>> with the place. The data is still useful for humanitarian aid (for example
>> see https://tasks.hotosm.org/contribute?difficulty=ALL&text=nigeria for
>> the many projects in the HOT tasking manager for improving data in Nigeria,
>> in particular missing residential areas). Rendering these places in a
>> visual way makes using the data easier. Later, the unnamed places could
>> still be given a name by a mapper with that knowledge.
>>
>> The tough question is when some place is considered a 'place' and may be
>> mapped when the name is unknown.
>>
>> I am curious about further reactions on this topic.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> *Hidde Wieringa*
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
>
> --
> Florimond Berthoux
>
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging and rendering places without a name

[Warin]

On 21/4/20 5:31 am, Florimond Berthoux wrote:

Hi Hidde, welcome,

The wiki definition is « Used to indicate that a particular location 
is known by a particular name, to indicate what sort of "place" it is. 
A place tag should exist for every significant human settlements 
(city, town, suburb, etc.) and also for notable unpopulated, named 
places. »


So place is used to precise that :
1. there is place at this position or on this area
2. it has a name
3. to define what kind of place

So by the definition I see no issue of having place without a name 
tag, as long as it has a name :)
Errr If it has a name, tag it. If you don't know its name then how do 
you know it is a place?


This is different than landuse for instance :
A farm has the landuse farmyard, and may have other landuse like 
greenhouse_horticulture, plant_nursery, orchard, meadow, ...
A barn alone or with some other building in the middle of a meadow can 
has landuse=farmyard but it’s not a farm, it could has a 
place=locality if it has a name.



If a building has a name then use the name tag on the building, do not 
add a tag place=* to it!






Le sam. 18 avr. 2020 à 22:23, Hidde Wieringa > a écrit :


Hello,

This is the first time posting to this mailing list. In case this
is the wrong place to post my question, feel free to point me to
the correct mailing list/forum.

I opened an issue in the OSM carto Github repository
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4115)
with the question if places tagged with place=* but without a name
could be rendered. The follow-up pull request
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/4120
proposes a rendering for unnamed places.

A discussion erupted, about the conceptual consequences of
rendering a place without a name. This goes against the wiki
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place) where the tag
name=* is marked as required. The first line in the wiki is /"Used
to indicate that a particular location is known by a particular
name, to indicate what sort of "place" it is. [...]"/. However
indicating what sort of place it is, does not require a name.
Indicating that a place of some sort exists at a certain location
is also valuable data (a quick count of Nigeria gives ~9800 nodes
of places without a name versus ~69000 nodes of places with a name).

I wish to question the assumption that every place always has or
requires a name. The comment of 'sommerluk' on the Github issue

(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4115#issuecomment-612847759)
indicates that there may indeed be small populated places without
a name, although larger populated places always have a name in
practice.

Also, regions of the world where on-the-ground mapping is not
popular will mostly be mapped by remote mappers. Because of that,
mapped places will usually not get a name (yet), because mappers
are not locally familiar with the place. The data is still useful
for humanitarian aid (for example see
https://tasks.hotosm.org/contribute?difficulty=ALL&text=nigeria
for the many projects in the HOT tasking manager for improving
data in Nigeria, in particular missing residential areas).
Rendering these places in a visual way makes using the data
easier. Later, the unnamed places could still be given a name by a
mapper with that knowledge.

The tough question is when some place is considered a 'place' and
may be mapped when the name is unknown.

I am curious about further reactions on this topic.

Kind regards,
/Hidde Wieringa/

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging and rendering places without a name

[Florimond Berthoux]

Hi Hidde, welcome,

The wiki definition is « Used to indicate that a particular location is
known by a particular name, to indicate what sort of "place" it is. A place
tag should exist for every significant human settlements (city, town,
suburb, etc.) and also for notable unpopulated, named places. »

So place is used to precise that :
1. there is place at this position or on this area
2. it has a name
3. to define what kind of place

So by the definition I see no issue of having place without a name tag, as
long as it has a name :)

This is different than landuse for instance :
A farm has the landuse farmyard, and may have other landuse like
greenhouse_horticulture, plant_nursery, orchard, meadow, ...
A barn alone or with some other building in the middle of a meadow can has
landuse=farmyard but it’s not a farm, it could has a place=locality if it
has a name.



Le sam. 18 avr. 2020 à 22:23, Hidde Wieringa  a
écrit :

> Hello,
>
> This is the first time posting to this mailing list. In case this is the
> wrong place to post my question, feel free to point me to the correct
> mailing list/forum.
>
> I opened an issue in the OSM carto Github repository (
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4115) with the
> question if places tagged with place=* but without a name could be
> rendered. The follow-up pull request
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/4120 proposes a
> rendering for unnamed places.
>
> A discussion erupted, about the conceptual consequences of rendering a
> place without a name. This goes against the wiki (
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place) where the tag name=* is
> marked as required. The first line in the wiki is *"Used to indicate that
> a particular location is known by a particular name, to indicate what sort
> of "place" it is. [...]"*. However indicating what sort of place it is,
> does not require a name. Indicating that a place of some sort exists at a
> certain location is also valuable data (a quick count of Nigeria gives
> ~9800 nodes of places without a name versus ~69000 nodes of places with a
> name).
>
> I wish to question the assumption that every place always has or requires
> a name. The comment of 'sommerluk' on the Github issue (
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4115#issuecomment-612847759)
> indicates that there may indeed be small populated places without a name,
> although larger populated places always have a name in practice.
>
> Also, regions of the world where on-the-ground mapping is not popular will
> mostly be mapped by remote mappers. Because of that, mapped places will
> usually not get a name (yet), because mappers are not locally familiar with
> the place. The data is still useful for humanitarian aid (for example see
> https://tasks.hotosm.org/contribute?difficulty=ALL&text=nigeria for the
> many projects in the HOT tasking manager for improving data in Nigeria, in
> particular missing residential areas). Rendering these places in a visual
> way makes using the data easier. Later, the unnamed places could still be
> given a name by a mapper with that knowledge.
>
> The tough question is when some place is considered a 'place' and may be
> mapped when the name is unknown.
>
> I am curious about further reactions on this topic.
>
> Kind regards,
> *Hidde Wieringa*
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging and rendering places without a name

[Warin]

Your on the right list!

Over 83% of the tagged 'place's have a name tag.

What kind of 'places' that don't have a name that will not be rendered 
are there?


A quick look in Nigeria...

Some of these are hamlets, villages that can be mapped as 
landuse=residential that will be rendered even without a name.
Some of these are islands/islets that can be mapped using the 
surrounding water way that will be rendered even without a name.


So far I don't see much of a problem?

On 19/4/20 6:22 am, Hidde Wieringa wrote:


Hello,

This is the first time posting to this mailing list. In case this is 
the wrong place to post my question, feel free to point me to the 
correct mailing list/forum.


I opened an issue in the OSM carto Github repository 
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4115) with 
the question if places tagged with place=* but without a name could be 
rendered. The follow-up pull request 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/4120 proposes 
a rendering for unnamed places.


A discussion erupted, about the conceptual consequences of rendering a 
place without a name. This goes against the wiki 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place) where the tag name=* 
is marked as required. The first line in the wiki is /"Used to 
indicate that a particular location is known by a particular name, to 
indicate what sort of "place" it is. [...]"/. However indicating what 
sort of place it is, does not require a name. Indicating that a place 
of some sort exists at a certain location is also valuable data (a 
quick count of Nigeria gives ~9800 nodes of places without a name 
versus ~69000 nodes of places with a name).


I wish to question the assumption that every place always has or 
requires a name. The comment of 'sommerluk' on the Github issue 
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4115#issuecomment-612847759) 
indicates that there may indeed be small populated places without a 
name, although larger populated places always have a name in practice.


Also, regions of the world where on-the-ground mapping is not popular 
will mostly be mapped by remote mappers. Because of that, mapped 
places will usually not get a name (yet), because mappers are not 
locally familiar with the place. The data is still useful for 
humanitarian aid (for example see 
https://tasks.hotosm.org/contribute?difficulty=ALL&text=nigeria for 
the many projects in the HOT tasking manager for improving data in 
Nigeria, in particular missing residential areas). Rendering these 
places in a visual way makes using the data easier. Later, the unnamed 
places could still be given a name by a mapper with that knowledge.


The tough question is when some place is considered a 'place' and may 
be mapped when the name is unknown.


I am curious about further reactions on this topic.

Kind regards,
/Hidde Wieringa/


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[Tagging] Tagging and rendering places without a name

[Hidde Wieringa]

Hello,

This is the first time posting to this mailing list. In case this is the 
wrong place to post my question, feel free to point me to the correct 
mailing list/forum.


I opened an issue in the OSM carto Github repository 
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4115) with 
the question if places tagged with place=* but without a name could be 
rendered. The follow-up pull request 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/4120 proposes a 
rendering for unnamed places.


A discussion erupted, about the conceptual consequences of rendering a 
place without a name. This goes against the wiki 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place) where the tag name=* is 
marked as required. The first line in the wiki is /"Used to indicate 
that a particular location is known by a particular name, to indicate 
what sort of "place" it is. [...]"/. However indicating what sort of 
place it is, does not require a name. Indicating that a place of some 
sort exists at a certain location is also valuable data (a quick count 
of Nigeria gives ~9800 nodes of places without a name versus ~69000 
nodes of places with a name).


I wish to question the assumption that every place always has or 
requires a name. The comment of 'sommerluk' on the Github issue 
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4115#issuecomment-612847759) 
indicates that there may indeed be small populated places without a 
name, although larger populated places always have a name in practice.


Also, regions of the world where on-the-ground mapping is not popular 
will mostly be mapped by remote mappers. Because of that, mapped places 
will usually not get a name (yet), because mappers are not locally 
familiar with the place. The data is still useful for humanitarian aid 
(for example see 
https://tasks.hotosm.org/contribute?difficulty=ALL&text=nigeria for the 
many projects in the HOT tasking manager for improving data in Nigeria, 
in particular missing residential areas). Rendering these places in a 
visual way makes using the data easier. Later, the unnamed places could 
still be given a name by a mapper with that knowledge.


The tough question is when some place is considered a 'place' and may be 
mapped when the name is unknown.


I am curious about further reactions on this topic.

Kind regards,
/Hidde Wieringa/

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