Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-22 Thread phil 
Dormitories are rooms with multiple beds, usually bunk beds and associated with 
youth hostels,  certainly not suitable for student accommodation where there is 
typically one student in a room, maybe two but they are certainly not 
dormitories. 

Phil (trigpoint )

On Sat Sep 20 2014 23:12:24 GMT+0100 (BST), Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
> On 9/20/14, Dan S  wrote:
> > 2014-09-19 15:52 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr :
> > I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely
> > accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British
> > english!
> 
> Wouldn't be the first time if ever:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dsoccer
> 
> That said, to me dormitories may also apply to other institutionalized
> housing such as housing for staff of a manufacturing plant. Although I
> admit that dormitories are primarily for students in my understanding.
> This ambiguity can be resolved by careful definition in the Wiki if
> ever people accept *=dormitory.
> 
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-21 Thread John F. Eldredge 
Another difference between college dormitories and apartments is that 
dormitory rooms usually lack cooking facilities, and, at least in older 
buildings, may have communal toilet/shower facilities rather than en suite 
facilities.




On September 20, 2014 8:47:08 AM sabas88  wrote:


On 19 Sep 2014 16:54, "Tobias Knerr"  wrote:
>
> On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote:
> >  for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university +
operator=*
> > OR
> >  for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*
> >
> > Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for
landuse.
> >
> > I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't
> > find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently
> > used 263 times. (I will add that "dormitory" is certainly a little odd
> > from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments
> > already made to the RFC.)
>
> That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely
> because of the oddness involved with the term "dormitory".
>
> Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or
> landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct
> facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but
> how the building is built.
>
+1
I tagged some student residences as tourism=guest_house previously, but
they aren't buildings (some are apartments inside buildings, but owned by
the local government agency for student services).

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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-21 Thread Dan S 
2014-09-19 16:15 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
> 2014-09-19 14:22 GMT+02:00 Dan S :
>
>>
>>  for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university +
>> operator=*
>> OR
>>  for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*
>>
>> Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for
>> landuse.
>
>
>
> I am not sure if this "works". Have you been looking at current values for
> the "residential" key? These are the ones with more than 100 uses:
>
> rural 
> 78 141
>
> -
>
> urban 
> 12 698
>
> -
>
> garden 
> 3 805
>
> -
>
> gated 
> 884
>
> -
>
> apartments 
> 231
>
> -
>
> single_family
> 
> 197
>
> -
>
> detached 
> 133
>
>
>

Thanks Martin. Yes I did look at these. NONE of them have a wiki page, nor
does the residential=* tag in general, so I'm at a loss to work out what is
intended by them!

* Surely the rural/urban distinction is judged by location? Could you have
residential=rural in the town centre? Maybe (since the tag isn't
documented) but I would guess not. So what's the tag for? Does it designate
context, building style, building density...?

* Surely apartments/detached/single_family should be properties of the
building objects?

* residential=garden I quite like, but it seems to duplicate leisure=garden
and it seems strange to me to consider gardens as "residential" since
usually no-one lives in the garden. I wonder if it was ever discussed much.

* residential=gated I like. In theory you can use barrier=* and access=* to
indicate the unusual access constraints for gated residences, but actually
it's not always obvious as that, since non-gated communities might also
have fences etc. So this tag seems to me like it might make a useful
distinction.



> There are already at least 3 different systems (one for rural / urban and
> one for the building typology (detached / single_family / apartments) and
> one for gated communities (what's this, socio-economic aspect of urbanism
> maybe?). Now you seem to be adding yet another one, "university" for
> student's appartments (not really self explaining IMHO).
>

So if not self-explaining, what misunderstandings of
"residential=university" could happen? It seems quite self-explaining to
me, so I'd be grateful if you could offer your perspective of potential
misunderstandings of "residential=university".



> I would use a specific tag for the building typology (e.g.
> building=dormitory or student_accomodation or similar if the building was
> built as such) and another one if it is actually used as such (e.g. under
> the amenity key as suggested by Tobias).
>

Understood. For the building, at least, the subtag works, if used to
indicate building typology.



> I don't see this as a case for adding a specific landuse value, but I do
> agree that refining the generic "residential" into more differentiated
> values by subtagging might be a general option (regardless of this
> particular case of student accomodation), e.g. differentiate according to
> density and
>
> structure (open / closed, not sure about the precise term in English, for
> reference see these two pictures:
> open (=space between buildings)
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offene_Bauweise_%28Baurecht%29#mediaviewer/File:Offene_Bauweise.png
> closed (buildings without space between them):
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschlossene_Bauweise_%28Baurecht%29#mediaviewer/File:Geschlossene_Bauweise.png
>

In British English this seems to me to  "detached" vs "semi-detached" vs
"terrace" (though there's not a 1:1 concept match). Again, though, it's not
clear to me why you'd want to tag residential areas as having these
properties, since they're already commonly indicated via the tags/geometry
of the building objects.

Thanks again for your detailed reply.

Best
Dan
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-21 Thread Dan S 
2014-09-21 0:49 GMT+01:00 Eugene Alvin Villar :
> On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 7:09 AM,  wrote:
>>
>> Dormitories are rooms with multiple beds, usually bunk beds and associated
>> with youth hostels,  certainly not suitable for student accommodation where
>> there is typically one student in a room, maybe two but they are certainly
>> not dormitories.
>
> What you're saying is British English usage. Here in the Philippines,
> dormitories are understood to be buildings primarily for students.

Thanks. So we've re-confirmed that the word "dormitory" has some
ambiguities that might be problematic, especially considering that OSM
is based on British English.

Eugene points out "sport=soccer" which is a good example of OSM
deliberately avoiding ambiguities, since in that case the common term
"football" has one meaning in US and one in UK. In that case we
avoided the British term as a special case, to avoid the ambiguity.
Here "dormitory" is the ambiguous term.

But that's all fine, since remember that Hno's tag proposal has
already been altered to amenity=student_accommodation.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/amenity%3Dstudent_accommodation
I agree with fly that it'd be nice to have a tag which didn't fix the
profession (so that it could be used for nurses/lecturers/etc) but
maybe that's not so bad.

Cheers
Dan

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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar 
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 7:09 AM,  wrote:

> Dormitories are rooms with multiple beds, usually bunk beds and associated
> with youth hostels,  certainly not suitable for student accommodation where
> there is typically one student in a room, maybe two but they are certainly
> not dormitories.
>

What you're saying is British English usage. Here in the Philippines,
dormitories are understood to be buildings primarily for students.

For example, in the Ateneo de Manila University, we have the Cervini
Residence Hall for males and Eliazo Residence Hall for females: Note that
the Wikipedia article classifies these are "dormitories" in accordance to
local usage even if the official name uses "Residence Hall":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cervini-Eliazo_Residence_Halls

In the University of the Philippines, we have several dormitories such as
Kalayaan Hall, Ilang-Ilang Hall, Molave Hall, etc.

There are also private businesses that run student dormitories, usually
located very near universities such as Manila Dormitory across the
University of Santo Tomas: http://maniladormitory.com/
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread phil 
Dormitories are rooms with multiple beds, usually bunk beds and associated with 
youth hostels,  certainly not suitable for student accommodation where there is 
typically one student in a room, maybe two but they are certainly not 
dormitories. 

Phil (trigpoint )

On Sat Sep 20 2014 23:12:24 GMT+0100 (BST), Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
> On 9/20/14, Dan S  wrote:
> > 2014-09-19 15:52 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr :
> > I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely
> > accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British
> > english!
> 
> Wouldn't be the first time if ever:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dsoccer
> 
> That said, to me dormitories may also apply to other institutionalized
> housing such as housing for staff of a manufacturing plant. Although I
> admit that dormitories are primarily for students in my understanding.
> This ambiguity can be resolved by careful definition in the Wiki if
> ever people accept *=dormitory.
> 
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar 
On 9/20/14, Dan S  wrote:
> 2014-09-19 15:52 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr :
> I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely
> accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British
> english!

Wouldn't be the first time if ever:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dsoccer

That said, to me dormitories may also apply to other institutionalized
housing such as housing for staff of a manufacturing plant. Although I
admit that dormitories are primarily for students in my understanding.
This ambiguity can be resolved by careful definition in the Wiki if
ever people accept *=dormitory.

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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 




> Il giorno 20/set/2014, alle ore 13:47, Dan S  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely
> accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British
> english!


I'm also for a specific value, if dormitory doesn't hit it for the British, 
maybe there is an analog term?


cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread Richard Welty 


On 09/20/2014 12:41 PM, fly wrote:

Am 20.09.2014 18:32, schrieb p...@trigpoint.me.uk:

  I would have gone for hall_of_residence.

Do not know if hall_of_residence is the right term.


hall_of_residence would work. i would have proposed the
shorter, less formal term residence_hall which is what you
will find in US usage.

richard


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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread fly 
Am 20.09.2014 18:32, schrieb p...@trigpoint.me.uk:
> Students accommodation is neither tourism or guesthouse,

+1

>  I would have gone for hall_of_residence. 

Do not know if hall_of_residence is the right term.

I know this accommodations for staff of hospitals (nurses) , too.

Would be nice if could find some tag to describe it without profession.

cu fly

> On Sat Sep 20 2014 14:46:17 GMT+0100 (BST), sabas88 wrote:
>> On 19 Sep 2014 16:54, "Tobias Knerr"  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote:
  for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university +
>> operator=*
 OR
  for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*

 Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for
>> landuse.

 I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't
 find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently
 used 263 times. (I will add that "dormitory" is certainly a little odd
 from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments
 already made to the RFC.)
>>>
>>> That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely
>>> because of the oddness involved with the term "dormitory".
>>>
>>> Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or
>>> landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct
>>> facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but
>>> how the building is built.
>>>
>> +1
>> I tagged some student residences as tourism=guest_house previously, but
>> they aren't buildings (some are apartments inside buildings, but owned by
>> the local government agency for student services).
>>
>> Stefano
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread phil 
Students accommodation is neither tourism or guesthouse,  I would have gone for 
hall_of_residence. 

Phil (trigpoint )

On Sat Sep 20 2014 14:46:17 GMT+0100 (BST), sabas88 wrote:
> On 19 Sep 2014 16:54, "Tobias Knerr"  wrote:
> >
> > On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote:
> > >  for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university +
> operator=*
> > > OR
> > >  for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*
> > >
> > > Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for
> landuse.
> > >
> > > I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't
> > > find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently
> > > used 263 times. (I will add that "dormitory" is certainly a little odd
> > > from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments
> > > already made to the RFC.)
> >
> > That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely
> > because of the oddness involved with the term "dormitory".
> >
> > Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or
> > landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct
> > facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but
> > how the building is built.
> >
> +1
> I tagged some student residences as tourism=guest_house previously, but
> they aren't buildings (some are apartments inside buildings, but owned by
> the local government agency for student services).
> 
> Stefano
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread sabas88 
On 19 Sep 2014 16:54, "Tobias Knerr"  wrote:
>
> On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote:
> >  for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university +
operator=*
> > OR
> >  for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*
> >
> > Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for
landuse.
> >
> > I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't
> > find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently
> > used 263 times. (I will add that "dormitory" is certainly a little odd
> > from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments
> > already made to the RFC.)
>
> That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely
> because of the oddness involved with the term "dormitory".
>
> Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or
> landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct
> facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but
> how the building is built.
>
+1
I tagged some student residences as tourism=guest_house previously, but
they aren't buildings (some are apartments inside buildings, but owned by
the local government agency for student services).

Stefano
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread Dan S 
2014-09-19 15:52 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr :
> On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote:
>>  for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university + operator=*
>> OR
>>  for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*
>>
>> Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for 
>> landuse.
>>
>> I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't
>> find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently
>> used 263 times. (I will add that "dormitory" is certainly a little odd
>> from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments
>> already made to the RFC.)
>
> That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely
> because of the oddness involved with the term "dormitory".

Ah yes, thanks. So now it assumes the occupants are students and not
lecturers ;)

(I'm just being cheeky. I know of universities in which lecturers do
stay in similar accommodation blocks, but that point is not important
enough to argue about...)

> Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or
> landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct
> facility

OK. I understand why you'd prefer amenity for tagging the usage. If
that tag gets accepted I guess I should use that instead of landuse,
and I understand your arguments there. I feel differently, because I
feel the analogy between a "housing estate" and a multi-building
"student halls" site is quite a strong analogy, neatly represented by
a named area of landuse=residential. But there we go.

> and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but how the building 
> is built.

This week I stayed in university accommodation (even though I'm not a
student ;), and the buildings were purpose-built student halls, so it
would be nice to tag the building appropriately. Alternatives include:
(a) "building=residential" (without subtagging), which is fine if vague;
(b) "building=apartments", which is tolerable but not quite appropriate;
(c) "building=dormitory" which is in use, but it's US English, and to
my Brit English mind just feels wrong. Sorry to moan about the US/UK
difference, but it is indeed a difference:
,

(d) "building=residential + residential=university", the approach I
was using recently. Not as widely used. It has an advantage of
graceful fallback (meaning data-users can understand the objects as
building=residential even if they ignore the subtag).

I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely
accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British
english!

Cheers
Dan

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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-19 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2014-09-19 14:22 GMT+02:00 Dan S :

>
>  for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university +
> operator=*
> OR
>  for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*
>
> Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for
> landuse.



I am not sure if this "works". Have you been looking at current values for
the "residential" key? These are the ones with more than 100 uses:

rural 
78 141

-

urban 
12 698

-

garden 
3 805

-

gated 
884

-

apartments 
231

-

single_family

197

-

detached 
133



There are already at least 3 different systems (one for rural / urban and
one for the building typology (detached / single_family / apartments) and
one for gated communities (what's this, socio-economic aspect of urbanism
maybe?). Now you seem to be adding yet another one, "university" for
student's appartments (not really self explaining IMHO).

I would use a specific tag for the building typology (e.g.
building=dormitory or student_accomodation or similar if the building was
built as such) and another one if it is actually used as such (e.g. under
the amenity key as suggested by Tobias).

I don't see this as a case for adding a specific landuse value, but I do
agree that refining the generic "residential" into more differentiated
values by subtagging might be a general option (regardless of this
particular case of student accomodation), e.g. differentiate according to
density and

structure (open / closed, not sure about the precise term in English, for
reference see these two pictures:
open (=space between buildings)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offene_Bauweise_%28Baurecht%29#mediaviewer/File:Offene_Bauweise.png
closed (buildings without space between them):
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschlossene_Bauweise_%28Baurecht%29#mediaviewer/File:Geschlossene_Bauweise.png

the above distinction is still quite generic, both of these types also have
a lot of subtypes (ideally, then there are mixed cases).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-19 Thread Tobias Knerr 
On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote:
>  for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university + operator=*
> OR
>  for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*
> 
> Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for 
> landuse.
> 
> I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't
> find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently
> used 263 times. (I will add that "dormitory" is certainly a little odd
> from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments
> already made to the RFC.)

That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely
because of the oddness involved with the term "dormitory".

Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or
landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct
facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but
how the building is built.


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[Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-19 Thread Dan S 
Hi all,

I have been fixing some university tagging (Sheffield contained
hundreds of amenity=university!). For student accommodation, I have
been using

 for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university + operator=*
OR
 for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*

Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for landuse.

I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't
find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently
used 263 times. (I will add that "dormitory" is certainly a little odd
from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments
already made to the RFC.)

residential=university has been used by a few people (99 objects, says
overpass). 33 of these are building=residential, 53 are
landuse=residential.

It's clear I'm not the only one using this pattern, though it's not an
approach that's officially adopted as far as I know. To me it seems
very meaningful usage, compatible with existing tagging, and covers
the intended use of amenity=dormitory except for monasteries ;)

Thoughts?

Best
Dan

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