Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Jan 2018, at 22:01, André Pirard  wrote:
> 
> The advantage of a node is best seen when you try to add several shops tags 
> to the same building/area: a nightmare.


with the level tag and josms level filtering it is possible to keep things 
clear. With multipoligon relations you can have overlapping areas that are easy 
to edit.


> Doing it with a number of nodes is just straightforward.


it often leads to completely symbolic representations for routing, see for 
example here: www.openstreetmap.org/note/1232585

when shops in a mall are mapped as areas they are usually much better 
positioned, and not arbitrarily like nodes in many cases, and you can also see 
which one is big and which is small.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Jan 2018, at 20:46, OSMDoudou 
> <19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:
> 
> But as they're asking to maintain their shops tagged as node, this is 
> effectively asking the community refrains itself from improving the tagging 
> of the mall


As areas and nodes are both valid representations for a shop, I would say they 
should adopt to it and handle both kind of elements, not insisting on nodes.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[André Pirard]

On 2018-01-24 20:46, OSMDoudou wrote:
>
> Following the discussion here, I changed the mapping of the mall to
> move tags from individual nodes to an area.
>
>  
>
> For one shop, it attracted feedback from the commercial entity who
> maintains its data on OpenStreetMap saying the change broke something
> at their side. See the discussion on the changeset: [1].
>
>  
>
> I'm very glad a company enriches the map and actively maintains the
> data (1700 nodes, they say), so I really want to support them and I
> reverted the change.
>
>  
>
> But as they're asking to maintain their shops tagged as node, this is
> effectively asking the community refrains itself from improving the
> tagging of the mall (following the idea that shops are better mapped
> as areas than nodes), and this is not in the interest of the community
> (which is to have a complete, coherent, accurate and maintained
> mapping of the place).
>
>  
>
> So, I wanted to ask your views on how to deal with this situation.
>
A shop is, as surprising as it may seem, not a building but an activity
that takes place somewhere.
In a conventional building or anywhere: in a tent, in a hall, on the
side of the street etc.
It can be tagged on a building or any area or on a node inside it, which
is the preference that I see around here.
The advantage of a node is best seen when you try to add several shops
tags to the same building/area: a nightmare.
Doing it with a number of nodes is just straightforward.
Also, a node is usable if you know too little of the geometry of the
area to map it decently.
I have often drawn buildings around shop nodes that were already there.
It's really nice to see people map their belongings.
Usually, the opposite happens: they completely ignore messages telling
them it has been done.

Cheers

André.



>  
>
> [1]
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/55640175#map=19/50.45645/3.93247
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[Andrew Hain]

If of course all of their shops are mapped in detail as areas, they still get a 
consistent target.

--
Andrew

From: OSMDoudou <19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com>
Sent: 24 January 2018 19:46:26
To: 'Tag discussion, strategy and related tools'
Subject: Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?


Following the discussion here, I changed the mapping of the mall to move tags 
from individual nodes to an area.



For one shop, it attracted feedback from the commercial entity who maintains 
its data on OpenStreetMap saying the change broke something at their side. See 
the discussion on the changeset: [1].



I'm very glad a company enriches the map and actively maintains the data (1700 
nodes, they say), so I really want to support them and I reverted the change.



But as they're asking to maintain their shops tagged as node, this is 
effectively asking the community refrains itself from improving the tagging of 
the mall (following the idea that shops are better mapped as areas than nodes), 
and this is not in the interest of the community (which is to have a complete, 
coherent, accurate and maintained mapping of the place).



So, I wanted to ask your views on how to deal with this situation.



[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/55640175#map=19/50.45645/3.93247


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[OSMDoudou]

Following the discussion here, I changed the mapping of the mall to move
tags from individual nodes to an area.

 

For one shop, it attracted feedback from the commercial entity who maintains
its data on OpenStreetMap saying the change broke something at their side.
See the discussion on the changeset: [1].

 

I'm very glad a company enriches the map and actively maintains the data
(1700 nodes, they say), so I really want to support them and I reverted the
change.

 

But as they're asking to maintain their shops tagged as node, this is
effectively asking the community refrains itself from improving the tagging
of the mall (following the idea that shops are better mapped as areas than
nodes), and this is not in the interest of the community (which is to have a
complete, coherent, accurate and maintained mapping of the place).

 

So, I wanted to ask your views on how to deal with this situation.

 

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/55640175#map=19/50.45645/3.93247

 

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-01-21 19:11 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr :

> I believe the list of tags that needs to be extended to fix the issue is
> the same as it was with a similar issue (overlapping way warning with
> waterway=riverbank), but I'm not very familiar with JOSM's codebase:
> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/9140
>
> > It seems indoor walls cannot overlap. Same if I try indoor=room.
>
> Note that unlike indoor=room, overlapping indoor=wall segments are
> indeed an error.
>



Looking in the wiki at this scheme:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Indoor2.0_elements.svg

it seems that indoor=room is to describe a room (which is delimited by
walls). In this case, these objects indeed should not overlap, as there
will always be a wall between 2 rooms. If the walls were to be included in
the object, it would be ok to overlap the rooms. Unfortunately the wiki
(where I looked) didn't explain these basic concepts.

FWIW, in architecture you would account for wall thickness (walls as 2
lines) for representation in scales below 1:200 and would use 1 line for
scales 1:200 and 1:500. Different layers of the wall (=more than 2 lines)
would be drawn in scales 1:1 - 1:25 (according to the materials, etc., in
1:50 you would use hatches to symbolize different kind of wall
constructions, but would have generalized drawings without entering into
specifics, usually).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[OSMDoudou]

No warning raised there. I figured adding building:part=yes changed the 
behavior and removed the warning.

-Original Message-
From: Steve Doerr [mailto:doerr.step...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 18:09
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

On 21/01/2018 16:48, OSMDoudou wrote:
> When I tag the perimeter with indoor=room instead of building=yes, JOSM 
> raises an error "Overlapping ways" for the segment B->C in this kind of 
> layout:
> A>B->E
> ^ | |
> | | |
> | | |
> | | |
> D<---C<F
>
>

Here's an example of indoor=room on contiguous objects that I found near
me: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7041387 (see the individual ways in 
the relation for the rooms).

Does JOSM raise the same error here?

Steve

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[Tobias Knerr]

On 21.01.2018 17:48, OSMDoudou wrote:
> When I tag the perimeter with indoor=room instead of building=yes, JOSM 
> raises an error "Overlapping ways" for the segment B->C in this kind of 
> layout:
[...]
> If I change the tags from indoor=wall to building=yes, no error is raised 
> anymore (but then of course, Osmose will report overlapping building, which 
> is the start of this discussion).

It's just a case of JOSM's validator not knowing about indoor=* yet. So
it produces incorrect warnings that can safely be ignored

There was a recent mention of the same problem on help.osm.org:
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/61383/josms-overlapping-ways-warnings-when-mapping-indoors

I believe the list of tags that needs to be extended to fix the issue is
the same as it was with a similar issue (overlapping way warning with
waterway=riverbank), but I'm not very familiar with JOSM's codebase:
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/9140

> It seems indoor walls cannot overlap. Same if I try indoor=room.

Note that unlike indoor=room, overlapping indoor=wall segments are
indeed an error.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[Steve Doerr]

On 21/01/2018 16:48, OSMDoudou wrote:

When I tag the perimeter with indoor=room instead of building=yes, JOSM raises an error 
"Overlapping ways" for the segment B->C in this kind of layout:
A>B->E
^ | |
| | |
| | |
| | |
D<---C

Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21. Jan 2018, at 17:48, OSMDoudou 
> <19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:
> 
> It seems indoor walls cannot overlap. Same if I try indoor=room.
> 
> If I delete B->C and tag as shop, then JOSM says the area is not closed.


if you want to tag a shop, you must use either an area or a node, and obviously 
this cannot be the same object as a wall (use a different object).

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[OSMDoudou]

When I tag the perimeter with indoor=room instead of building=yes, JOSM raises 
an error "Overlapping ways" for the segment B->C in this kind of layout:
A>B->E
^ | |
| | |
| | |
| | |
D<---C<F

If I change the tags from indoor=wall to building=yes, no error is raised 
anymore (but then of course, Osmose will report overlapping building, which is 
the start of this discussion).

It seems indoor walls cannot overlap. Same if I try indoor=room.

If I delete B->C and tag as shop, then JOSM says the area is not closed.

How should I draw the perimeter of the shop ?

Thx.

-Original Message-
From: Tobias Knerr [mailto:o...@tobias-knerr.de] 
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2018 21:36
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

On 17.01.2018 23:16, OSMDoudou wrote:
> There is a shopping mall here [1] for which a mapper detailed the 
> inside shops with a node for the "identity" and an area for the 
> "physical perimeter" of the shop inside the mall. [...] Can you 
> suggest tagging improvements ?

My suggestion (based on Simple Indoor Tagging¹) is to tag the areas with their 
shop tag, level, and and other attributes such as name. So you get a closed way 
with some basic tags, for example:

name = Jack & Jones
shop = clothes
level = 0

There's no reason to keep the nodes around once you have mapped the shops as 
areas, so move all other tags such as opening hours to the area instead.

At this point, you have a perfectly valid representation of the mall, so you 
can stop here if you want. But if you're interested in adding more details, 
there's a lot of possibilities: Add indoor=room or indoor=area tags to the shop 
areas (depending on whether they're fully enclosed with walls or not), and add 
walls (indoor=wall), corridors (indoor=corridor), doors, elevators, staircases 
and so on.

Yours,
Tobias

¹ https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Simple_Indoor_Tagging

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[OSMDoudou]

Indeed. The physical perimeter of the shops is very useful information. There 
is no reason to delete it.

-Original Message-
From: "Mateusz Konieczny" <matkoni...@gmail.com>
Sent: ‎19-‎01-‎18 08:56
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

With areas already mapped there is no reason to do that.


On 19 Jan 2018 8:54 a.m., "Mateusz Konieczny" <matkoni...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, just move tags from nodes to areas, delete invalid building tags and no 
longer necessary nodes.


On 18 Jan 2018 9:36 p.m., "Tobias Knerr" <o...@tobias-knerr.de> wrote:

On 17.01.2018 23:16, OSMDoudou wrote:
> There is a shopping mall here [1] for which a mapper detailed the inside
> shops with a node for the "identity" and an area for the "physical
> perimeter" of the shop inside the mall. [...]
> Can you suggest tagging improvements ?

My suggestion (based on Simple Indoor Tagging¹) is to tag the areas with
their shop tag, level, and and other attributes such as name. So you get
a closed way with some basic tags, for example:

name = Jack & Jones
shop = clothes
level = 0

There's no reason to keep the nodes around once you have mapped the
shops as areas, so move all other tags such as opening hours to the area
instead.

At this point, you have a perfectly valid representation of the mall, so
you can stop here if you want. But if you're interested in adding more
details, there's a lot of possibilities: Add indoor=room or indoor=area
tags to the shop areas (depending on whether they're fully enclosed with
walls or not), and add walls (indoor=wall), corridors (indoor=corridor),
doors, elevators, staircases and so on.

Yours,
Tobias

¹ https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Simple_Indoor_Tagging

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

With areas already mapped there is no reason to do that.

On 19 Jan 2018 8:54 a.m., "Mateusz Konieczny"  wrote:

> Yes, just move tags from nodes to areas, delete invalid building tags and
> no longer necessary nodes.
>
> On 18 Jan 2018 9:36 p.m., "Tobias Knerr"  wrote:
>
>> On 17.01.2018 23:16, OSMDoudou wrote:
>> > There is a shopping mall here [1] for which a mapper detailed the inside
>> > shops with a node for the "identity" and an area for the "physical
>> > perimeter" of the shop inside the mall. [...]
>> > Can you suggest tagging improvements ?
>>
>> My suggestion (based on Simple Indoor Tagging¹) is to tag the areas with
>> their shop tag, level, and and other attributes such as name. So you get
>> a closed way with some basic tags, for example:
>>
>> name = Jack & Jones
>> shop = clothes
>> level = 0
>>
>> There's no reason to keep the nodes around once you have mapped the
>> shops as areas, so move all other tags such as opening hours to the area
>> instead.
>>
>> At this point, you have a perfectly valid representation of the mall, so
>> you can stop here if you want. But if you're interested in adding more
>> details, there's a lot of possibilities: Add indoor=room or indoor=area
>> tags to the shop areas (depending on whether they're fully enclosed with
>> walls or not), and add walls (indoor=wall), corridors (indoor=corridor),
>> doors, elevators, staircases and so on.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Tobias
>>
>> ¹ https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Simple_Indoor_Tagging
>>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Yes, just move tags from nodes to areas, delete invalid building tags and
no longer necessary nodes.

On 18 Jan 2018 9:36 p.m., "Tobias Knerr"  wrote:

> On 17.01.2018 23:16, OSMDoudou wrote:
> > There is a shopping mall here [1] for which a mapper detailed the inside
> > shops with a node for the "identity" and an area for the "physical
> > perimeter" of the shop inside the mall. [...]
> > Can you suggest tagging improvements ?
>
> My suggestion (based on Simple Indoor Tagging¹) is to tag the areas with
> their shop tag, level, and and other attributes such as name. So you get
> a closed way with some basic tags, for example:
>
> name = Jack & Jones
> shop = clothes
> level = 0
>
> There's no reason to keep the nodes around once you have mapped the
> shops as areas, so move all other tags such as opening hours to the area
> instead.
>
> At this point, you have a perfectly valid representation of the mall, so
> you can stop here if you want. But if you're interested in adding more
> details, there's a lot of possibilities: Add indoor=room or indoor=area
> tags to the shop areas (depending on whether they're fully enclosed with
> walls or not), and add walls (indoor=wall), corridors (indoor=corridor),
> doors, elevators, staircases and so on.
>
> Yours,
> Tobias
>
> ¹ https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Simple_Indoor_Tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Or just tag the individual shops as nodes rather than mark the walls in?


On 19 January 2018 at 09:21, marc marc  wrote:
>
> maybe start with an indoor=yes without building tag on all indoor areas.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[marc marc]

Le 17. 01. 18 à 23:16, OSMDoudou a écrit :
> an area for the "physical perimeter" of the shop inside the mall.
> [3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/96140107

this area is not a building.
it's a indoor stuff.

> I gave a read at the Wiki on indoor tagging, but I couldn't find 
> something conclusive (indoor=room seems suitable for an office in a 
> building but doesn't represent the nature of a shop area in a mall).

indoor=room if the area have walls
indoor=area for an are without wall or if the walls are defined separately
indoor=yes if you don't care or it's mixed

maybe start with an indoor=yes without building tag on all indoor areas.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[Tobias Knerr]

On 17.01.2018 23:16, OSMDoudou wrote:
> There is a shopping mall here [1] for which a mapper detailed the inside
> shops with a node for the "identity" and an area for the "physical
> perimeter" of the shop inside the mall. [...]
> Can you suggest tagging improvements ?

My suggestion (based on Simple Indoor Tagging¹) is to tag the areas with
their shop tag, level, and and other attributes such as name. So you get
a closed way with some basic tags, for example:

name = Jack & Jones
shop = clothes
level = 0

There's no reason to keep the nodes around once you have mapped the
shops as areas, so move all other tags such as opening hours to the area
instead.

At this point, you have a perfectly valid representation of the mall, so
you can stop here if you want. But if you're interested in adding more
details, there's a lot of possibilities: Add indoor=room or indoor=area
tags to the shop areas (depending on whether they're fully enclosed with
walls or not), and add walls (indoor=wall), corridors (indoor=corridor),
doors, elevators, staircases and so on.

Yours,
Tobias

¹ https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Simple_Indoor_Tagging

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