Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-22 Thread Jerry Clough - OSM 
Aren't the legal arguments insuperable?
Even if logos are held in Wikimedia commons I very much doubt that the licence 
on Wikimedia commons is accurate. Most large companies will defend the use of 
their brand image fiercely. 
In practice to use logos and other trademarks on a map one should get explicit 
permission from the owner of the logo. Yes it is done, for instance in shopping 
mall maps, but this will usually be covered by associated legal agreements.
An excellent example is the Transport for London roundel. This image says it is 
""It does not meet the threshold of originality needed ",  but below it notes 
that it may be a trademark in some jurisdictions. TfL on the other hand have 
very clear guidelines: Logo requestsand are known to be litigious.
I would therefore suggest adding explicit links to potentially 
copyright/trade-mark infringing material is not a good idea for OSM. Wikipedia 
may be large enough and have a good enough mind share for large companies to 
tolerate the presence of logos in the commons. It is not clear that this is the 
case for OSM: particularly as the most obvious use-case for logos is in maps of 
public transport networks.
So, although I sympathise with the idea, I'm very dubious about promoting it 
within OSM.
Jerry


  
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  From: Philip Barnes 
 To: tagging@openstreetmap.org 
 Sent: Tuesday, 19 September 2017, 13:18
 Subject: Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?
   
Ignoring the legal arguments for a moment, but what would OSM gain or do with 
this information. How would it help us build a better map?

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 19 September 2017 08:10:15 BST, SwiftFast  wrote:
The logo tag would link to a Logo of a company/organization/shop.

To avoid unreliable links, questionable licenses, and the rest of the
drawbacks of the "image"[1] tag, the value must link to a Wikimedia
Commons image. The value format is identical to the
wikimedia_commons[2] format.

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:image
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wikimedia_commons


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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-20 Thread Marc Gemis 
>
> If that interpretation is correct, there would have to be a Wikipedia
> article, Commons page (not just a related image), or similar entry in
> the Wikimedia ecosystem to meet the notability criteria.

I doubt it has to be in the Wikimedia ecosystem. People work hard to
get all paintings from some musea into the Wikidata, without creating
Wikimedia pages.
Only "link" is a reference to a museum catalogue.

regards

m

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-20 Thread Tobias Knerr 
On 19.09.2017 23:41, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> AFAIK wikidata's notability requirements should not be an issue, because
> it is sufficient there is a link to a commons page [1] to comply.

> [1] https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Notability

The notability requirements specifically mention "sitelinks", though,
not just any link. My understanding is that, at
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q38076 for example, only the link in the
"Other sites" section is a "sitelink" – the value of the "logo image"
property probably isn't.

If that interpretation is correct, there would have to be a Wikipedia
article, Commons page (not just a related image), or similar entry in
the Wikimedia ecosystem to meet the notability criteria.

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-19 Thread SwiftFast 

> AFAIK wikidata's notability requirements should not be an issue,
> because it is sufficient there is a link to a commons page [1] to
> comply.
> 

Are there any notability guidelines for adding things to Commons?

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-19 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 19. Sep 2017, at 19:14, Tobias Knerr  wrote:
> 
> I think a logo tag could have it's place. I prefer
> using Wikidata where possible, but Wikidata has notability guidelines
> that will probably prevent creating an item for smaller stores that are
> not part of a major national or international brand. What I particularly
> like about the proposal is the focus on using Commons, as their
> machine-readable license templates give us at least a chance at managing
> the legal issues.


+1,
I also like the idea to have references to wikimedia commons logo files. In 
some cases these could even help for disambiguation (e.g. Aldi nord vs. Aldi 
Süd).

AFAIK wikidata's notability requirements should not be an issue, because it is 
sufficient there is a link to a commons page [1] to comply.


Cheers,
Martin 


[1] https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Notability___
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-19 Thread Neil Matthews 
I guess logos are a sort of "cut-price" street view?

Some logos will need language/country specific options -- which might
make tagging them useful.

Unless localization already works with wikidata? How to find e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Burger_King_Arabic_logo.svg from
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q177054

Neil

On 19/09/2017 20:36, SwiftFast wrote:
>> using Wikidata where possible, but Wikidata has notability guidelines
>> that will probably prevent creating an item for smaller stores that
>> are
>> not part of a major national or international brand.
> One could refine the proposal: Only add a "logo" tag for entities which
> are not allowed in wikidata. Otherwise just use the wikidata link (and
> create the wikidata entity if nonexistent).
>
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-19 Thread SwiftFast 

> using Wikidata where possible, but Wikidata has notability guidelines
> that will probably prevent creating an item for smaller stores that
> are
> not part of a major national or international brand.

One could refine the proposal: Only add a "logo" tag for entities which
are not allowed in wikidata. Otherwise just use the wikidata link (and
create the wikidata entity if nonexistent).

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-19 Thread Tobias Knerr 
On 19.09.2017 16:27, José G Moya Y. wrote:
> It's up to
> the rendering app creators to decide if they want to display some shops
> using its logos. In that case, the app would probably have some other
> way to display them.

What way would that be?

Unless we want each render style author to maintain their own worldwide
database of company logos (which would not only be redundant, but also
far too much work for most rendering development teams), the logos need
to be available either directly in OSM or in an external resource – such
as Wikidata – linked from OSM.

For what it's worth, I think a logo tag could have it's place. I prefer
using Wikidata where possible, but Wikidata has notability guidelines
that will probably prevent creating an item for smaller stores that are
not part of a major national or international brand. What I particularly
like about the proposal is the focus on using Commons, as their
machine-readable license templates give us at least a chance at managing
the legal issues.

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-19 Thread SwiftFast 
On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 13:06 +0100, Philip Barnes wrote:
> Ignoring the legal arguments for a moment, but what would OSM gain or
> do with this information. How would it help us build a better map?

Navigation. A logo is a distinct physical feature providing an easy way
for a human to locate something on the ground.

But it was pointed out this data is reachable via wikidata. So perhaps
it's redundant to add it explicitly.

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-19 Thread José G Moya Y . 
The logo value seems to be useful on the rendering side only. It's up to
the rendering app creators to decide if they want to display some shops
using its logos. In that case, the app would probably have some other way
to display them.
-1 to this proposal.

El 19/9/2017 14:19, "Philip Barnes"  escribió:

Ignoring the legal arguments for a moment, but what would OSM gain or do
with this information. How would it help us build a better map?

Phil (trigpoint)

On 19 September 2017 08:10:15 BST, SwiftFast  wrote:

> The logo tag would link to a Logo of a company/organization/shop.
>
> To avoid unreliable links, questionable licenses, and the rest of the
> drawbacks of the "image"[1] tag, the value must link to a Wikimedia
> Commons image. The value format is identical to the
> wikimedia_commons[2] format.
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:image
> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wikimedia_commons
>
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-19 Thread Philip Barnes 
Ignoring the legal arguments for a moment, but what would OSM gain or do with 
this information. How would it help us build a better map?

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 19 September 2017 08:10:15 BST, SwiftFast  wrote:
>The logo tag would link to a Logo of a company/organization/shop.
>
>To avoid unreliable links, questionable licenses, and the rest of the
>drawbacks of the "image"[1] tag, the value must link to a Wikimedia
>Commons image. The value format is identical to the
>wikimedia_commons[2] format.
>
>[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:image
>[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wikimedia_commons
>
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-19 Thread François Lacombe 
2017-09-19 10:57 GMT+02:00 Edoardo Yossef Marascalchi <
e.marascal...@gmail.com>:

> My 2cents:
> Logos are already available through wikidata. I would prefer to add the
> wikidata id instead of redundant informations to commercial networks.
>
> Edo
>

+1

Cheers

François 

>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-19 Thread SwiftFast 
On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 11:57 +0300, Edoardo Yossef Marascalchi wrote:
> My 2cents:
> Logos are already available through wikidata. I would prefer to add
> the
> wikidata id instead of redundant informations to commercial networks.
> 
> Edo

Good point.

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-19 Thread Edoardo Yossef Marascalchi 
My 2cents:
Logos are already available through wikidata. I would prefer to add the
wikidata id instead of redundant informations to commercial networks.

Edo

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 11:51 AM, SwiftFast  wrote:

> Sorry for the broken links.
>
> Company logos legal guidelines:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logos
>
> Logo catalog:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Company_logos
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-19 Thread SwiftFast 
Sorry for the broken links.

Company logos legal guidelines:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logos

Logo catalog:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Company_logos


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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: logo tag. Opinions?

2017-09-19 Thread SwiftFast 
Regarding the legal status. See this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wik
ipedia:Logos. It appears usage logos are allowed on Wikimedia under
some conditions. Here's a catalog of logos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wi
ki/Category:Company_logos

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