Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Jo]

Forgot the link:  https://zonnetrein.be/en/

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:04 PM Jo  wrote:

> It's indeed a lot like that train in Tenerife.
>
> Since it's solar powered (supposedly), it's called Zonnetrein.
>
> Not a real train, no rails, more like a bus, but specifically targeted to
> tourists or group events.
>
> It's true we don't have a way to map this, so for now I would have been
> inclined to use highway=bus_stop with a specific operator on them.
>
> The original poster seems to be talking about bus services with schedule,
> for those too I would simply use highway=bus_stop.
>
> For the chartered services, they only have load/unload spots near the
> tourist attractions and parking areas. For those spots, it would be good to
> have a dedicated tag.
>
> Polyglot
>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 11:14 AM Steve Doerr 
> wrote:
>
>> On 19/09/2019 00:29, Warin wrote:
>> > On 19/09/19 07:02, Steve Doerr wrote:
>> >> On 18/09/2019 18:57, Steve Doerr wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Sounds like a road-train to me.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Actually I've reallized that the expression I was looking for was
>> >> 'land train'.
>> >>
>> >
>> > I don't think so ...
>> >
>> >
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_train
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trackless_train is the relevant entry for
>> what I have in mind.
>>
>> --
>> Steve
>>
>> ---
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Jo]

It's indeed a lot like that train in Tenerife.

Since it's solar powered (supposedly), it's called Zonnetrein.

Not a real train, no rails, more like a bus, but specifically targeted to
tourists or group events.

It's true we don't have a way to map this, so for now I would have been
inclined to use highway=bus_stop with a specific operator on them.

The original poster seems to be talking about bus services with schedule,
for those too I would simply use highway=bus_stop.

For the chartered services, they only have load/unload spots near the
tourist attractions and parking areas. For those spots, it would be good to
have a dedicated tag.

Polyglot

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 11:14 AM Steve Doerr 
wrote:

> On 19/09/2019 00:29, Warin wrote:
> > On 19/09/19 07:02, Steve Doerr wrote:
> >> On 18/09/2019 18:57, Steve Doerr wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Sounds like a road-train to me.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Actually I've reallized that the expression I was looking for was
> >> 'land train'.
> >>
> >
> > I don't think so ...
> >
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_train
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trackless_train is the relevant entry for
> what I have in mind.
>
> --
> Steve
>
> ---
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Steve Doerr]

On 19/09/2019 00:29, Warin wrote:

On 19/09/19 07:02, Steve Doerr wrote:

On 18/09/2019 18:57, Steve Doerr wrote:


Sounds like a road-train to me.



Actually I've reallized that the expression I was looking for was 
'land train'.




I don't think so ...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_train


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trackless_train is the relevant entry for 
what I have in mind.


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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 18. Sep 2019, at 17:36, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> In simple signage, yes.  But if you asked most people do those signs apply to 
> coaches
> you'd get a variety of answers, because most people think buses and coaches 
> are
> different things (except for long-distance coaches, which are somewhat 
> ambiguous).


ask the drivers, not „most people“, because if the signs don’t apply to you it 
is not important that you know the meaning. I don’t think we should map legal 
situations based on what we think that the majority thinks, but based on the 
legal situation. It should be clear to whom the sign applies, it should be 
coded in law.

It doesn’t matter whether different kind of vehicles are considered different 
„things“ by the people, we should have tags to unambiguously describe the legal 
situation and the vehicle classes that the law distinguishes.

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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Joseph Eisenberg]

This discussion needs to also happen on the proposal page, since it
looks like the original poster is not following all of the emails
here. See:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Tag:highway%3Dtourist_bus_stop

- Joseph

On 9/19/19, Paul Allen  wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 15:02, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
> your government also seems to include them:
>>
>> @Paul From a quick search it seems these specific rules exist in the uk
>> as
>> well, see here:
>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/traffic-signs
>> signs giving orders-> No buses (over 8 passenger seats)
>>
>>
> In simple signage, yes.  But if you asked most people do those signs apply
> to coaches
> you'd get a variety of answers, because most people think buses and coaches
> are
> different things (except for long-distance coaches, which are somewhat
> ambiguous).
>
> When you look at the actual law (scattered around several different pieces
> of
> legislation) local bus services carry passengers at separate fares and (if
> I interpret
> it correctly) stops can be no more than 15 miles (straight line distance)
> apart.  Excursions
> and tours (which are usually coaches) are not local bus services.
> Hop-on/hop-off
> sightseeing buses have to be registered as local bus services.  See
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/705081/PSV353A_local_service_registrations_-_England__except_London__and_Wales.pdf
> Long-distance coaches are not local bus services.  All of those, from the
> outside, may look
> very similar.  Some of those, from the inside, may look different.  Any of
> them may have
> access rights and stopping positions that the others do not.
>
> As far as legislation, common British English usage, and local regulation
> of access rights
> goes, there is no "one size fits all" term meaning "it's the size of a bus,
> it looks like a bus
> and it carries passengers, and we can safely say that all vehicles matching
> those criteria
> have the same access rights."
>
> Long-distance coaches are very similar in operation to local services
> except they have
> provision to carry luggage, stop less frequently, may have a toilet and
> often require advance
> booking yet may be excluded from some roads that permit local service
> buses.  I don't
> have any examples, but it's easy to conceive of situations where such a
> distinction would
> be made.  We can probably accommodate long-distance coaches with PTvX but
> need to
> think about access=*.
>
> Excursion/tour coaches don't fit in with PTvX (except where they share a
> stop with a local
> registered bus service) or access=*.
>
> Sightseeing buses might fit with PTvX (with possibly a lot of ways being
> hail and ride) but
> again may have different access rights to local registered buses.
>
> Or maybe we should try to squeeze the worms back into the can and be happy
> with what
> we have, even though it is not adequate to describe reality.
>
> --
> Paul
>

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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Warin]

On 19/09/19 07:02, Steve Doerr wrote:

On 18/09/2019 18:57, Steve Doerr wrote:


Sounds like a road-train to me.



Actually I've reallized that the expression I was looking for was 
'land train'.




I don't think so ...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_train


Both 'road tarin' and 'land train' can mean a truck - a tractor with a 
few trailers ... usually 50 metres long.


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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Steve Doerr]

On 18/09/2019 18:57, Steve Doerr wrote:


Sounds like a road-train to me.



Actually I've reallized that the expression I was looking for was 'land 
train'.


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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Steve Doerr]

On 18/09/2019 13:20, Paul Allen wrote:
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 11:59, Jo > wrote:


In my own city we have an electric train like bus that has a few
stops and is specifically meant for tourists. Not double decker
with an open roof and it's slow, but OK. It has an itinerary and
dedicated hop on/hop off stops. I would like to be able to map it.


Sounds like a tram to me.   Am I missing something?  Does it 
specifically prohibit non-tourists?


Sounds like a road-train to me. Probably a mock-up of a steam locomotive 
towing a chain of carriages behind it. They're so obviously intended for 
tourists that most locals would not be seen dead using them.


--
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 15:02, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

your government also seems to include them:
>
> @Paul From a quick search it seems these specific rules exist in the uk as
> well, see here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/traffic-signs
> signs giving orders-> No buses (over 8 passenger seats)
>
>
In simple signage, yes.  But if you asked most people do those signs apply
to coaches
you'd get a variety of answers, because most people think buses and coaches
are
different things (except for long-distance coaches, which are somewhat
ambiguous).

When you look at the actual law (scattered around several different pieces
of
legislation) local bus services carry passengers at separate fares and (if
I interpret
it correctly) stops can be no more than 15 miles (straight line distance)
apart.  Excursions
and tours (which are usually coaches) are not local bus services.
Hop-on/hop-off
sightseeing buses have to be registered as local bus services.  See
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/705081/PSV353A_local_service_registrations_-_England__except_London__and_Wales.pdf
Long-distance coaches are not local bus services.  All of those, from the
outside, may look
very similar.  Some of those, from the inside, may look different.  Any of
them may have
access rights and stopping positions that the others do not.

As far as legislation, common British English usage, and local regulation
of access rights
goes, there is no "one size fits all" term meaning "it's the size of a bus,
it looks like a bus
and it carries passengers, and we can safely say that all vehicles matching
those criteria
have the same access rights."

Long-distance coaches are very similar in operation to local services
except they have
provision to carry luggage, stop less frequently, may have a toilet and
often require advance
booking yet may be excluded from some roads that permit local service
buses.  I don't
have any examples, but it's easy to conceive of situations where such a
distinction would
be made.  We can probably accommodate long-distance coaches with PTvX but
need to
think about access=*.

Excursion/tour coaches don't fit in with PTvX (except where they share a
stop with a local
registered bus service) or access=*.

Sightseeing buses might fit with PTvX (with possibly a lot of ways being
hail and ride) but
again may have different access rights to local registered buses.

Or maybe we should try to squeeze the worms back into the can and be happy
with what
we have, even though it is not adequate to describe reality.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 18. Sep 2019, at 14:18, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> I had a look at the road sign you mentioned later in your message.  I 
> couldn't tell if the symbol
> meant a bus, a coach, or both.  So I ran it through Google Translate.  This 
> is what came back
> for "Kraftomnibus": "buses and coaches."  Wikipedia may use a more generic 
> form of English,
> but most speakers of British English do not interpret "bus" as including 
> "coach."


your government also seems to include them:
> @Paul From a quick search it seems these specific rules exist in the uk as 
> well, see here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/traffic-signs
> signs giving orders-> No buses (over 8 passenger seats)


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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 11:59, Jo  wrote:

> In my own city we have an electric train like bus that has a few stops and
> is specifically meant for tourists. Not double decker with an open roof and
> it's slow, but OK. It has an itinerary and dedicated hop on/hop off stops.
> I would like to be able to map it.
>

Sounds like a tram to me.   Am I missing something?  Does it specifically
prohibit non-tourists?

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 10:28, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

>
> According to Wikipedia:en :
> " A *bus* (contracted from *omnibus*,[1]
>  with variants
> *multibus*, *motorbus*, *autobus*, etc.) is a road vehicle
>  designed to carry many
> passengers ."
> with the possible subclasses:
> " Buses may be used for scheduled bus transport
> , scheduled
> coach transport
> , school
> transport , private hire,
> or tourism ; promotional
> buses may be used for political campaigns
>  and others are
> privately operated for a wide range of purposes, including rock and pop
> band tour vehicles"
> The official German term is "Kraftomnibus"
> 
>

I had a look at the road sign you mentioned later in your message.  I
couldn't tell if the symbol
meant a bus, a coach, or both.  So I ran it through Google Translate.  This
is what came back
for "Kraftomnibus": "buses and coaches."  Wikipedia may use a more generic
form of English,
but most speakers of British English do not interpret "bus" as including
"coach."

>
> Unfortunately in OSM the term "bus"
> is used for public-transport
> buses only:
>

Unfortunate, perhaps, but not wrong.  Because OSM uses British English.
And in British
English "bus" is usually used to mean scheduled public transport other than
coaches (long
distance routes may be served by coaches that run to a timetable but we
call them coaches, not
buses).

Even Google Translate recognizes that whilst German has the term
Kraftomnibus to cover both
buses and coaches, English does not (at least, I can't think of one).
Interpreting British
English "bus" in OSM as meaning "coach or bus" is, I think, somewhat
dubious.

" *Buses*, *coaches* and *trolley buses* are forms of public transport
>  that operate
> mainly on the road network. The system consists of bus routes calling at
> bus stops and bus stations and have a number of related features."
> (also to note that in OSM "coaches" are included in the category PT-bus)
>

Depends on the type of coach.

We have coaches on long-distance routes, they are timetabled, public
transport, but carry
luggage, are designed for comfort rather than mass transit, and typically
have just one stop
in any given town or city.  Local regulations for a particular road could
permit buses but exclude
that type of coach.  Coaches may have a dedicated stop or share it with
local bus services.

We also have coaches that are irregular, taking people to holiday
destinations or on day trips.
The comments in the preceding paragraph also apply to these, except there
are usually only
two stops, at the termini.

And (answering to another question somewhere in this discussion) there are
> cases where we need in OSM an access tag for these generic buses, for
> example to map the access restriction announced by this road sign
> 
> .
>

This is the real problem.  We use "bus" in the British English sense for
public transport
(marking bus stops as per PTv0/1/2).  But some infer that bus=yes means
"bus/coach" for
access.  Not only is that confusing, not only is it reading more into
British English "bus" than
there is, but it may be factually wrong: local regulations for a given road
may permit buses
but prohibit coaches.

We could have a generic "bus-shaped vehicle carrying passengers" tag, for
access.  I think
it is going to be cleaner to add coach=yes so we can have access=no +
bus=yes + coach=yes
rather than have access=no + bus_and_coach=yes and then, one day, find out
we have a
rare case of a road where coaches are permitted but buses are not.   Having
bus=yes
and coach=yes tags allows us to map access by one, the other, both, or
neither.  Also I
suspect that many existing bus=yes tags were added with no thought as to
whether or
not coaches were permitted, despite those whose language has a word meaning
"buses
and coaches" inferring that the British English word "bus" means the same
thing.

Given the orginal "sin" of wrongly limiting the term "bus" to
> public-transport buses in OSM
>

Or is that the original sin of assuming the British English term has the
same meaning as
the German one?

(which I believe cannot be undone),
>

I agree.  Not feasible.


> we need to sort this out by creating other terms.
> I have no proposal for this, but the original 

Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 18. Sept. 2019 um 12:59 Uhr schrieb Jo :

> I would also like to be able to map the stops/waiting areas of those long
> distance bus lines. At the moment, I was simply using highway=bus_stop for
> them and an approximate itinerary.
>


seems common and correct tagging, why are you mentioning it? We do not
differentiate bus transport by distance, only whether it is public
transport or not.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Jo]

In my own city we have an electric train like bus that has a few stops and
is specifically meant for tourists. Not double decker with an open roof and
it's slow, but OK. It has an itinerary and dedicated hop on/hop off stops.
I would like to be able to map it.

I would also like to be able to map the stops/waiting areas of those long
distance bus lines. At the moment, I was simply using highway=bus_stop for
them and an approximate itinerary.

Polyglot

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 12:47 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> btw.: those "sightseeing buses" that have been mentioned before, might
> merit their own tags, too. In Rome these are quite common (hence locals
> don't like them because they are competing for space in the traffic), they
> are not public transport (I guess they can not use bus lanes for example),
> but they are different from "regular" coaches too. Usually these are open
> on the top, you buy a ticket to use them for a certain time (1-2 days) and
> they follow routes and have stops (dedicated, not shared with public
> transport) and you can hop on and off as much as you want. They are typical
> for tourist destinations, e.g. can be found in Seville, Edinburgh, Paris,
> Palma de Mallorca, Malaga, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Athens, Dublin, Lisbon,
> Budapest, Brussels (just to copy from one of the companies, surely there
> will be similar offerings in other parts of the world).
>
> Example foto:
> https://www.rometoolkit.com/Images/xcity_sightseeing_bus_rome_1.jpg.pagespeed.ic.qtzVNApps0.jpg
>
> There are several companies which provide this kind of service, and I
> guess they are not compatible (you cannot use the same ticket for different
> companies), and with limited routes and pricing at something like 16-25EUR
> per person and 24h (they will only operate for example from 8:30-19:30
> though), these are not an alternative to public transport (1,50 EUR for 2
> hours).
>
> I will not map them (unless they pay for it ;-) ), but we should take care
> that they are NOT mapped as highway=bus_stop, or generally with public
> transport tags, that's why I mention them.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

btw.: those "sightseeing buses" that have been mentioned before, might
merit their own tags, too. In Rome these are quite common (hence locals
don't like them because they are competing for space in the traffic), they
are not public transport (I guess they can not use bus lanes for example),
but they are different from "regular" coaches too. Usually these are open
on the top, you buy a ticket to use them for a certain time (1-2 days) and
they follow routes and have stops (dedicated, not shared with public
transport) and you can hop on and off as much as you want. They are typical
for tourist destinations, e.g. can be found in Seville, Edinburgh, Paris,
Palma de Mallorca, Malaga, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Athens, Dublin, Lisbon,
Budapest, Brussels (just to copy from one of the companies, surely there
will be similar offerings in other parts of the world).

Example foto:
https://www.rometoolkit.com/Images/xcity_sightseeing_bus_rome_1.jpg.pagespeed.ic.qtzVNApps0.jpg

There are several companies which provide this kind of service, and I guess
they are not compatible (you cannot use the same ticket for different
companies), and with limited routes and pricing at something like 16-25EUR
per person and 24h (they will only operate for example from 8:30-19:30
though), these are not an alternative to public transport (1,50 EUR for 2
hours).

I will not map them (unless they pay for it ;-) ), but we should take care
that they are NOT mapped as highway=bus_stop, or generally with public
transport tags, that's why I mention them.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 18. Sept. 2019 um 11:28 Uhr schrieb Volker Schmidt <
vosc...@gmail.com>:

>
> Unfortunately in OSM the term "bus"
> is used for public-transport
> buses only:
>


+1



> " *Buses*, *coaches* and *trolley buses* are forms of public transport
>  that operate
> mainly on the road network. The system consists of bus routes calling at
> bus stops and bus stations and have a number of related features."
> (also to note that in OSM "coaches" are included in the category PT-bus)
>


not only in OSM, also legally they are mostly the same (differences are
derived from the fact that coaches typically do not have places to stand,
while inner urban buses usually provide many standing places). Still, not
all coaches are in the "bus" category of OSM, on the contrary, only few,
which are those used for public transport (longer distances).




>
> And (answering to another question somewhere in this discussion) there are
> cases where we need in OSM an access tag for these generic buses, for
> example to map the access restriction announced by this road sign
> 
> .
>


thank you for repeating it, I do not know how it came it was ignored at
least 2 times here in the previous discussion.



>
> Given the orginal "sin" of wrongly limiting the term "bus" to
> public-transport buses in OSM (which I believe cannot be undone), we need
> to sort this out by creating other terms.
> I have no proposal for this, but the original proposal of defining
> positions where non-PT buses load/unload passengers is basically a good one.
> The real problem is to properly define different classes of
> mulit-seated-motor-vehicles-with-more-than-8-seats, and then revisit the
> existing tags accordingly.
>


+1, right now, there is a key for this: "tourist_bus", the definition is
suitable, but its name might be misleading.

Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Volker Schmidt]

Let's restart this with some basics.

According to Wikipedia:en :
" A *bus* (contracted from *omnibus*,[1]
 with variants
*multibus*, *motorbus*, *autobus*, etc.) is a road vehicle
 designed to carry many
passengers ."
with the possible subclasses:
" Buses may be used for scheduled bus transport
, scheduled
coach transport ,
school transport , private
hire, or tourism ;
promotional buses may be used for political campaigns
 and others are privately
operated for a wide range of purposes, including rock and pop band tour
vehicles"
The official German term is "Kraftomnibus"

(according to the German version of the EU documents)

Unfortunately in OSM the term "bus"
is used for public-transport
buses only:
" *Buses*, *coaches* and *trolley buses* are forms of public transport
 that operate mainly
on the road network. The system consists of bus routes calling at bus stops
and bus stations and have a number of related features."
(also to note that in OSM "coaches" are included in the category PT-bus)

And (answering to another question somewhere in this discussion) there are
cases where we need in OSM an access tag for these generic buses, for
example to map the access restriction announced by this road sign

.

Given the orginal "sin" of wrongly limiting the term "bus" to
public-transport buses in OSM (which I believe cannot be undone), we need
to sort this out by creating other terms.
I have no proposal for this, but the original proposal of defining
positions where non-PT buses load/unload passengers is basically a good one.
The real problem is to properly define different classes of
mulit-seated-motor-vehicles-with-more-than-8-seats, and then revisit the
existing tags accordingly.

Regarding "bus" stops:
PT-buses in many countries have reserved stop locations, where non-PT buses
cannot stop.
In many cases PT-bus stops are reserved for buses of specific operators.
And I think (to be verified) that Flixbus is a long-distance PT-bus
network, that does not stop at PT-bus stops, but in other locations, often
shared with non-PT buses.
I am sure when we look closer at different countries we detect all kinds of
hybrids.
One, which I know first hand, is an on-demand night-bus system (in Padova,
Italy)

that is operated by the company that runs the city's scheduled day-time
PT-bus lines. This night-time on-demand service has no fixed routes but
allows pick-up/set-down of passengers only at the stop locations of the
scheduled service.





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On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 01:34, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 at 23:56, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>> I am honestly confused by the discussions about types and features of
>> buses.
>>
>
> Join the club. :)
>
> Are these relevant in the mapping context?
>>
>
> Yes.  That's how this whole thread started.  Somebody wanting to map
> places where
> coaches stop to let people on and off.  Which are sometimes for coaches
> alone but
> some may be shared with buses.
>
>
>> Are there any road regulations referring specifically to coaches?
>>
>
> I have no idea.  It would be a long search to find out, and if you found
> nothing you
> still couldn't be sure you hadn't missed something.
>
> Because there are for buses. Not just buses in public service, but buses
>> intended as a kind of vehicle (in all places I know, this includes coaches
>> and small buses with more than 9 seats).
>>
>
> Even though there may be no generic legislation there may be specific
> signage.  Access
> for buses only would (I surmise) exclude coaches because the buses are
> permitted in order
> to allow passengers to board/alight along that bit of highway whereas
> coaches would be
> using it merely as a short-cut from A to B.  Pedestrianized inner cities
> areas may allow
> buses along some roads that all other traffic is excluded from (except for
> delivery vehicles
> outside shopping hours).  I have seen 

Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 at 23:56, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> I am honestly confused by the discussions about types and features of
> buses.
>

Join the club. :)

Are these relevant in the mapping context?
>

Yes.  That's how this whole thread started.  Somebody wanting to map places
where
coaches stop to let people on and off.  Which are sometimes for coaches
alone but
some may be shared with buses.


> Are there any road regulations referring specifically to coaches?
>

I have no idea.  It would be a long search to find out, and if you found
nothing you
still couldn't be sure you hadn't missed something.

Because there are for buses. Not just buses in public service, but buses
> intended as a kind of vehicle (in all places I know, this includes coaches
> and small buses with more than 9 seats).
>

Even though there may be no generic legislation there may be specific
signage.  Access
for buses only would (I surmise) exclude coaches because the buses are
permitted in order
to allow passengers to board/alight along that bit of highway whereas
coaches would be
using it merely as a short-cut from A to B.  Pedestrianized inner cities
areas may allow
buses along some roads that all other traffic is excluded from (except for
delivery vehicles
outside shopping hours).  I have seen video of a rising bollard that dropped
to allow a bus through and then rose to block the car following the bus:
presumably a coach
would also be blocked because it wouldn't broadcast a valid ID.  See
https://youtu.be/4wT7zM8XgXQ?t=189

We do need to keep coaches and buses separate.  And realize that coaches
(whether chartered,
for holidays or for day trips) are not the same thing as tourist/tour buses
(which are probably in yet
another category for stops and road access).

Oh, and please forget that motorbus ever existed.  Motorcycle is in common
use (more
usually motorbike) to distinguish it from an ordinary bicycle.  Motorcar is
quaint and
old-fashioned and people would wonder why you said motorcar rather than
just car
but would know what you meant.   Motorbus is so antiquated that people
would wonder
what you were talking about and ask if you meant a bus.

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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I am honestly confused by the discussions about types and features of buses. 
Are these relevant in the mapping context? Are there any road regulations 
referring specifically to coaches?
Because there are for buses. Not just buses in public service, but buses 
intended as a kind of vehicle (in all places I know, this includes coaches and 
small buses with more than 9 seats).

@Paul From a quick search it seems these specific rules exist in the uk as 
well, see here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/traffic-signs
signs giving orders-> No buses (over 8 passenger seats)

Cheers Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Warin]

On 17/09/19 04:11, Paul Allen wrote:



On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 18:25, Martin Koppenhoefer 
mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:



is "motorcar" a term that is common in British English?


Not much.


How do you tag the generic bus class in Britain?


Is there such a thing?  There are buses which operate to a timetable 
and anyone may board
or alight at specified stops (perhaps elsewhere at the driver's 
discretion).  There are coaches
use for day trips and coaches for long distance.  All are classed by 
the UK gov't as PSVs

(as are taxis, minibuses and stretch limos).

FWIW, the common term "bus" is already taken for buses acting as
public service vehicles,


Except "PSV" doesn't mean what you think it means in the UK.  But I'm 
happy with how OSM
uses the term bus, because that's how most people in the UK use it, 
and I think is what our

gov't calls a "registered local service."

so there must be something else for the generic vehicle class for
buses.


There must?  Why?  I can't think of it.  There may very well be one, 
in common usage,

but it doesn't spring to mind.

I am not insisting on "motorbus", but it seemed to fit with the
rest of the terms, and it didn't seem to have specific meaning,
which the currently documented "tourist_bus" obviously has.


There was a time when all buses were pulled by horses.


? Umm were they not coaches? Cobb & Co etc.
https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/britain-1700-to-1900/transport-1750-to-1900/coaches-1750-to-1900/
1700s on.
Oh  I found horsebuses were later.. 1824... humm never heard of them 
before.



Then along came Daimler, Otto
and others and eventually there were new-fangled motorbuses.  Proudly 
called motorbuses
because they had a motor instead of being pulled by horses.  More time 
passed and
horse-drawn buses became a rarity, and what were once called 
motorbuses were simply
called buses.  Although horse-drawn buses are exceedingly rare, they 
would also fit into
the generic, as yet unnamed, category that includes buses, coaches, 
minibuses, etc.

Motorbus is pretty much an archaism.

Since a bus and coach are extremes in terms of size and weight of 
PSVs, and look
very similar from the outside, I'd be reasonably happy to accept 
access=bus as meaning
both.  I can foresee the possibility that buses are allowed but 
coaches are not, but is it
likely?  No doubt somebody will chip in with an example. Actually, I 
can think of one:
an automatic vehicle barrier that opens if it detects a bus (local 
registered service)
but not any other type of vehicle, so it would exclude coaches.  Yes, 
such a thing

exists.


Tourist coaches here deliver there passengers and then go elsewhere to 
park in the busy places.
They cannot park in a regular 'bus stop' as those get used by the 
regular passenger services.


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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I guess that's the difference when your long trip is 1 hour! :-)

Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 at 08:59, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 23:51, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>> Only knowing Australian buses / coaches, I'm not sure if this applies
>> world-wide, but a major distinction between the two here, is that a coach
>> has a toilet on board, while a bus doesn't.
>>
>
> Wow!  You have posh coaches there!
>
> More seriously, many decades ago it was rare for coaches to have a toilet
> on board, and
> stops along the way were necessary.  Toilets on coaches are far more
> common these
> days, but I expect you can find a few old coaches run by cheapskate
> operators without
> them.  The most you can be sure of here is that the seats are more
> comfortable than
> on buses and there is a luggage compartment.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 23:51, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Only knowing Australian buses / coaches, I'm not sure if this applies
> world-wide, but a major distinction between the two here, is that a coach
> has a toilet on board, while a bus doesn't.
>

Wow!  You have posh coaches there!

More seriously, many decades ago it was rare for coaches to have a toilet
on board, and
stops along the way were necessary.  Toilets on coaches are far more common
these
days, but I expect you can find a few old coaches run by cheapskate
operators without
them.  The most you can be sure of here is that the seats are more
comfortable than
on buses and there is a luggage compartment.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Only knowing Australian buses / coaches, I'm not sure if this applies
world-wide, but a major distinction between the two here, is that a coach
has a toilet on board, while a bus doesn't.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Steve Doerr]

On 15/09/2019 22:45, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

I would use “motorbus” for the bus class, motorcar and motorcycle indicate 
there’s a system.


Must say 'motor bus' sounds really quaint to an English speaker. It's a 
term that belongs to the early 1900s when there were still maybe a few 
horse-drawn buses around. It just makes me think of this poem from 1914:


   What is this that roareth thus?
   Can it be a Motor Bus?
   Yes, the smell and hideous hum
   Indicat Motorem Bum!
   Implet in the Corn and High
   Terror me Motoris Bi:
   Bo Motori clamitabo
   Ne Motore caedar a Bo---
   Dative be or Ablative
   So thou only let us live:---
   Whither shall thy victims flee?
   Spare us, spare us, Motor Be!
   Thus I sang; and still anigh
   Came in hordes Motores Bi,
   Et complebat omne forum
   Copia Motorum Borum.
   How shall wretches live like us
   Cincti Bis Motoribus?
   Domine, defende nos
   Contra hos Motores Bos!

--
Steve


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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 16. Sept. 2019 um 17:01 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen :

> On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 15:30, Kevin Kenny  wrote:
>
>> So, solving the original poster's problem is now out of scope?  :shrug:
>>
>
> Not entirely out of scope.  But we shouldn't let whatever he or she was
> trying to
> achieve twist our tagging into using archaisms like "motorbus" in an
> attempt to
> make up for using terms like "coach" and "tourist bus" in ways that don't
> match
> British English (or even American English) usage.
>


is "motorcar" a term that is common in British English?

How do you tag the generic bus class in Britain?

FWIW, the common term "bus" is already taken for buses acting as public
service vehicles, so there must be something else for the generic vehicle
class for buses. I am not insisting on "motorbus", but it seemed to fit
with the rest of the terms, and it didn't seem to have specific meaning,
which the currently documented "tourist_bus" obviously has.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 10:24 AM Paul Allen  wrote:
> Indeed.  All we can try to do is sort it all out.  To do that, we need to 
> know what we
> are talking about.  I think we can ignore whatever it was the original poster 
> intended.
> I blame Google Translate. :)

So, solving the original poster's problem is now out of scope?  :shrug:

-- 
73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin

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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 07:13, Jo  wrote:

> What about long_distance_bus, if you don't like coach? motorbus doesn't
> really convey much information. All buses we are talking about have a motor.
>

Indeed.  Also, it's not a term I've encountered very often (if at all) in
British English.


> When I saw the initial conversation in Italian, I thought the person
> asking was asking about coach buses that were transporting tourists on an
> on demand, or on group reservation basis. For such buses there are
> dedicated areas where they can load / unload people, but that's more like
> parking.
>

Having had some time to think about it, and seeing the
increasingly-diverging opinions here,
it's time to give my current thinking on this.

For me (an Englishman), a coach, in the context of buses, means a
comfortable, long-distance
bus with the capability of transporting luggage.  Coaches are used on
long-distance (several
hours of travel time) routes and for transporting people on touring
holidays ("It's Tuesday, so this
must be Rome.")  This accords with Wiktionary's definition 3 (British
English) of a coach:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coach

For me, a tourist bus is (usually) an open-topped, double-decker bus
carrying tourists
around a single town/city (and possibly a few nearby locations).  How they
get to that
town/city is (usually) a different mode of transport.  There is somebody
(either the
driver or a guide) giving a running commentary.

Obviously, there are overlaps in that coaches taking people on holiday or
to events
are carrying tourists.  A coach driver may make an occasional announcement,
and
there may even be a guide making announcements.  But coaches are about
long-distance travel (usually with luggage) whilst tourist buses cover
short distances
and have no special provision for stowing luggage.  Tourist buses are
ordinary (not very
comfortable) buses, usually with the top cut off.  Coaches are
comfortable.  Holiday coaches
usually require you to book a ticket in advance; long-distance coaches
permit (and sometimes
require) reservations and often require you to buy a ticket from an office
rather than on the bus.
Tourist buses can sometimes be booked in advance but may permit you to
simply board at
one of their stops.

In fact, if we're talking about Flixbus, Eurolines, Greyhound, etc. I think
> highway=bus_stop is just fine. Add a tag for operator or network and it's
> obvious and clear those are not bus stops for the local bus lines.
>

Those would be long-distance coaches running to a timetable, not coaches
carrying
people on holiday to a destination or event.  For OSM purposes it's
probably OK to treat
them as buses, even though they may have only two stops (the two termini).

However, these coach holidays https://www.richardsbros.co.uk/coach-holidays/
are not buses in the above sense.  Booking is required.  Luggage is
carried.  The
pick-up point is fixed, the drop-off point(s) varies depending on the
specific
destination.  The pick-up point may or may not be an ordinary bus stop, but
usually
isn't for most operators.  These day tours
https://www.richardsbros.co.uk/day-tours/
fall into the same broad category as the coach holidays.

These are tourist buses https://edinburghtour.com/

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 16. Sep 2019, at 08:07, Jo  wrote:
> 
> What about long_distance_bus, if you don't like coach? motorbus doesn't 
> really convey much information. All buses we are talking about have a motor.


Sorry, it may not have been clear, “motorbus” would be used as a generic term 
for the bus class as required for access restrictions, e.g. this sign: 

it wasn’t specifically for the tourist bus stop.

The difference between the boarding stop for non-public buses and a parking for 
such buses is the time you can stay, on the bus stop you may not park the 
vehicle.


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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Jo]

What about long_distance_bus, if you don't like coach? motorbus doesn't
really convey much information. All buses we are talking about have a
motor. The only exception I can think of is this Italian pedibus, which
isn't really a bus at all. (Accompanied children who take the same
itinerary on a daily basis on their way to school).

When I saw the initial conversation in Italian, I thought the person asking
was asking about coach buses that were transporting tourists on an on
demand, or on group reservation basis. For such buses there are dedicated
areas where they can load / unload people, but that's more like parking.

In fact, if we're talking about Flixbus, Eurolines, Greyhound, etc. I think
highway=bus_stop is just fine. Add a tag for operator or network and it's
obvious and clear those are not bus stops for the local bus lines.

Polyglot

On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 11:47 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 12. Sep 2019, at 02:44, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
> >
> > I agree that "[motor]coach=" might have been clearer, but I'm ok with
> > keeping "tourist_bus=*" since it may actually be easier to translate
> > into most languages, and "coach=*" can also be ambiguous, since it
> > used to refer to horse-drawn vehicles and passenger railway cars, so
> > "motorcoach" would have been needed. Also, some definitions of
> > "coach=" seem to be limited to larger inter-city style buses, with
> > seatbelts, individual seats instead of benches, etc.
> >
> > See also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:coach
>
>
> I would use “motorbus” for the bus class, motorcar and motorcycle indicate
> there’s a system. The coach word seems more complicated and maybe only
> referring to some kind of buses. The term “Coach” should be avoided unless
> there are specific provisions for coaches (couldn’t find anything so far).
>
> For access restrictions for public transport buses, “public_bus” would
> have been clearer than just “bus”, but I don’t think osm is going to change
> this...
>
> For tourist_bus there might be a realistic (?) possibility to rename it to
> motorbus.
>
> Cheers Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 12. Sep 2019, at 02:44, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> The Key:bus has this definition currently
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bus):
> 
> "A bus is a large motor vehicle used for public transport of passengers


that’s a brand new page you have created by copying content from the bus=yes 
page. 

The long-standing definition as an access class is “
 bus=* (a heavy bus acting as a public service vehicle)”



and can be found on the access page. The bus key page used to redirect to it.

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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Joseph Eisenberg]

The Key:bus has this definition currently
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bus):

"A bus is a large motor vehicle used for public transport of passengers.

"In most countries a bus is a larger public service vehicle or public
transport vehicle used to transport passengers, with more than 9 or 12
seating positions, but the specific definition may vary by location.
Long-distance and inter-city bus and coach=* vehicles may or may not
be included. Trolleybuses are usually included.

"There are two uses of this tag: 1) to specify legal access
restrictions for buses. 2) to specify the type of passenger public
transport vehicle that uses a stop or station.

"Also see the more common access tag psv=* which includes public
transport buses as well as other public service vehicles."

So if "tourist_bus=*" is for all buses which are not a "psv=*", then
it probably should include minibuses and vans, depending on the local
definition of "bus".

For example, I would think there here in Indonesia the minibuses would
be included (which are no larger than an American "minivan", but have
much higher capacity due to lack of seatbelts and use of bench seats).

Most of these are "PSVs" (public service vehicles / public transit)
but some are "for hire" like an Italian tourist bus or an English
hired motorcoach.

I agree that "[motor]coach=" might have been clearer, but I'm ok with
keeping "tourist_bus=*" since it may actually be easier to translate
into most languages, and "coach=*" can also be ambiguous, since it
used to refer to horse-drawn vehicles and passenger railway cars, so
"motorcoach" would have been needed. Also, some definitions of
"coach=" seem to be limited to larger inter-city style buses, with
seatbelts, individual seats instead of benches, etc.

See also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:coach

On 9/12/19, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> FWIW, there is in many jurisdictions a vehicle class for busses which is
> currently covered by the value: "tourist_bus" defined as bus not acting as
> a public service vehicle.
>
> As I have stated before, "motorbus" would have been a better (more
> consistent hence self-explaining) choice for the key name of the generic
> bus vehicle class (but with currently almost 8000 uses of tourist_bus, it
> seems hard to rename this).
>
> Additionally, for the context of the tourist bus stop, according to what is
> intended, this definition might not encompass every kind of vehicle that is
> intended by "tourist bus stop" (e.g. if you want to allow usage for
> vehicles used for the transportation of tourists, not included in public
> transport, but also not "buses" by definition).
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>

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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

FWIW, there is in many jurisdictions a vehicle class for busses which is
currently covered by the value: "tourist_bus" defined as bus not acting as
a public service vehicle.

As I have stated before, "motorbus" would have been a better (more
consistent hence self-explaining) choice for the key name of the generic
bus vehicle class (but with currently almost 8000 uses of tourist_bus, it
seems hard to rename this).

Additionally, for the context of the tourist bus stop, according to what is
intended, this definition might not encompass every kind of vehicle that is
intended by "tourist bus stop" (e.g. if you want to allow usage for
vehicles used for the transportation of tourists, not included in public
transport, but also not "buses" by definition).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Johnparis]

I believe that tourism is a characteristic of the line, not the stop. PTv2
handles this (as it does so many cases) quite easily.

Here's an example in central Paris of a stop that is served by a "public"
bus line and a "tourist" bus line:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5292142706

The tagging for the stop is fairly straightforward:
bus=yes
highway=bus_stop
public_transport=platform
ref:FR:Open_Tour=17
route_ref=69;OpenTour

Line 69 is operated by the RATP, the regional transit agency. Open Tour is
a tourist line.

By the way, your proposed tag highway=tourist_bus_stop will not render in
OSM Carto, the main map people see when they visit openstreetmap.org. As a
result, many (if not all) potential mappers will be scared away. This
has been a problem for years since PTv2 was introduced; apparently one
person (as I understand it) in the OSM Carto world doesn't like PTv2, and
so has blocked its implementation there. After many years, the main editors
(iD and JOSM) have finally implemented presets for PTv2, so that's no
longer a problem. (Thanks, Polyglot et al.) But the presets unfortunately
must include the legacy tags, because OSM Carto won't render PTv2 without
them. (Despite comments I sometimes see to the contrary, PTv2 has been
wildly successful in terms of usage.)

I frankly don't see the difference, either, between a "tourist" line and a
"public" line. Tourist buses are open to the public and charge a fee, just
as public buses do, and in fact "public" bus lines are often privately
owned. If you look at the tagging for the Open Tour line (relation, not the
individual stop) you will see this:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7282206
description=bus touristique
name=Open Tour : Ligne Bleue
network=Open Tour
operator=Open Tour
public_transport:version=2
ref=Bleue
route=bus
type=route

That "description" tag is the only one to differentiate this route from a
"public" route. If you really feel such a tag is needed, perhaps simplest
would be to add a tag like this to the route:
tourist=only
...or some such

Finally, it would be a good idea to also send a notice of your proposal to
the talk-transit list, where others might have good suggestions.

Cheers,

John





On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 3:48 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 at 14:31, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
>>
>> The  description here describes coaches, which are more comfortable than
>> buses and are used for long distances. In French for example this would be
>> the difference between Autocar and Autobus.
>>
>
> That's one end of the spectrum.  I'm not sure I'd call it a tourist bus
> (English usage).  It's
> a long-distance, comfortable bus.  It's just for getting from A to B, not
> what you do at B
> or requiring you to also return.
>
> I would have considered a tourist bus, to be the buses that travel around
>> Central London giving a guided commentary where tourists can get on and off
>> a certain dedicated bus stops close to tourist attractions.
>>
>
> That's the other end of the spectrum.  Tourists turn up in London
> (somehow) and get one of
> those things for a guided tour.
>
> Another point on the spectrum is day tours from town A to town B or event
> C, such as
> https://www.richardsbros.co.uk/day-tours/  They're not daily, or
> regularly scheduled, and you
> need to book, so not public buses.
>
> Elsewhere on the spectrum is coach holidays, from town A to town B, with a
> tour of town
> B (similar to the kind offered by London tourist buses), such as
> https://www.richardsbros.co.uk/coach-holidays/
>
> Both of those examples are from my local bus operator, who runs public
> buses in my
> area: https://www.richardsbros.co.uk/local-bus-services/
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 at 14:31, Philip Barnes  wrote:

>
> The  description here describes coaches, which are more comfortable than
> buses and are used for long distances. In French for example this would be
> the difference between Autocar and Autobus.
>

That's one end of the spectrum.  I'm not sure I'd call it a tourist bus
(English usage).  It's
a long-distance, comfortable bus.  It's just for getting from A to B, not
what you do at B
or requiring you to also return.

I would have considered a tourist bus, to be the buses that travel around
> Central London giving a guided commentary where tourists can get on and off
> a certain dedicated bus stops close to tourist attractions.
>

That's the other end of the spectrum.  Tourists turn up in London (somehow)
and get one of
those things for a guided tour.

Another point on the spectrum is day tours from town A to town B or event
C, such as
https://www.richardsbros.co.uk/day-tours/  They're not daily, or regularly
scheduled, and you
need to book, so not public buses.

Elsewhere on the spectrum is coach holidays, from town A to town B, with a
tour of town
B (similar to the kind offered by London tourist buses), such as
https://www.richardsbros.co.uk/coach-holidays/

Both of those examples are from my local bus operator, who runs public
buses in my
area: https://www.richardsbros.co.uk/local-bus-services/

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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Philip Barnes]

On Wednesday, 11 September 2019, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 at 10:43, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Am Mi., 11. Sept. 2019 um 04:39 Uhr schrieb Leif Rasmussen <
> > 354...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > if both can stop, it is not a tourist bus stop but a regular bus stop
> > where coaches can stop. I have difficulties imagining it, but I would not
> > exclude the possibility.
> >
> 
> I'm glad you wouldn't exclude the possibility.  There is a bus stop like
> that in my town.  Occasionally
> tourist buses stop there to allow passengers to board so they can go on
> holiday.  As it happens,
> the same company that runs the public buses around here also has a tourist
> operation which
> takes people in the area on holidays, tours, etc.
> 
> 
> > Usually these tourist bus stops are set up in areas with a lot of traffic
> > and few parking space, in these settings you would not want tourist busses
> > to block pt bus stops, the setting where it would be imaginable are low
> > density places where it doesn't matter anyway where you stop (no problem,
> > next bus in 4 hours).
> >
> 
> Ummm, the one here is on what is effectively the high street (and used to
> be named that
> many, many years ago).  Several different hourly services stop there.  It's
> actually a long
> "platform," long enough that two buses can stop there at once, which
> sometimes happens if one
> is running a little late.  So there's enough room for an ordinary bus and a
> tourist bus.
> 
> The other place tourist buses stop is a public car park.  Fortunately the
> annual fair (with
> mobile fairground rides) that takes over the car park a few days a year
> does so in November
> when there aren't as many people wanting to travel.
> 
> In other places I've lived, tourist and long-distance buses shared a bus
> station with ordinary
> buses.
> 
Am still not 100% clear what was originally meant by Tourist bus.

The  description here describes coaches, which are more comfortable than buses 
and are used for long distances. In French for example this would be the 
difference between Autocar and Autobus.

I would have considered a tourist bus, to be the buses that travel around 
Central London giving a guided commentary where tourists can get on and off a 
certain dedicated bus stops close to tourist attractions.

Phil (trigpoint) 

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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 11. Sept. 2019 um 15:12 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen :

> On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 at 10:43, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>> Usually these tourist bus stops are set up in areas with a lot of traffic
>> and few parking space, in these settings you would not want tourist busses
>> to block pt bus stops, the setting where it would be imaginable are low
>> density places where it doesn't matter anyway where you stop (no problem,
>> next bus in 4 hours).
>>
>
> Ummm, the one here is on what is effectively the high street (and used to
> be named that
> many, many years ago).  Several different hourly services stop there.
> It's actually a long
> "platform," long enough that two buses can stop there at once, which
> sometimes happens if one
> is running a little late.  So there's enough room for an ordinary bus and
> a tourist bus.
>


I was a bit exaggerating to make the point, but I guess you would agree
that tourist busses stopping at bus stops in central London would not be
appreciated. Around here (Rome), many bus stops have room for 2 busses, but
with busses approaching every few minutes it would not work having coaches
use them as well. In smaller towns it can be possible, but it isn't usual.



>
> In other places I've lived, tourist and long-distance buses shared a bus
> station with ordinary
> buses.
>



this is probably common (also close to or combined with a train station or
a subway station)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 at 10:43, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> Am Mi., 11. Sept. 2019 um 04:39 Uhr schrieb Leif Rasmussen <
> 354...@gmail.com>:
>
> if both can stop, it is not a tourist bus stop but a regular bus stop
> where coaches can stop. I have difficulties imagining it, but I would not
> exclude the possibility.
>

I'm glad you wouldn't exclude the possibility.  There is a bus stop like
that in my town.  Occasionally
tourist buses stop there to allow passengers to board so they can go on
holiday.  As it happens,
the same company that runs the public buses around here also has a tourist
operation which
takes people in the area on holidays, tours, etc.


> Usually these tourist bus stops are set up in areas with a lot of traffic
> and few parking space, in these settings you would not want tourist busses
> to block pt bus stops, the setting where it would be imaginable are low
> density places where it doesn't matter anyway where you stop (no problem,
> next bus in 4 hours).
>

Ummm, the one here is on what is effectively the high street (and used to
be named that
many, many years ago).  Several different hourly services stop there.  It's
actually a long
"platform," long enough that two buses can stop there at once, which
sometimes happens if one
is running a little late.  So there's enough room for an ordinary bus and a
tourist bus.

The other place tourist buses stop is a public car park.  Fortunately the
annual fair (with
mobile fairground rides) that takes over the car park a few days a year
does so in November
when there aren't as many people wanting to travel.

In other places I've lived, tourist and long-distance buses shared a bus
station with ordinary
buses.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 11. Sept. 2019 um 04:39 Uhr schrieb Leif Rasmussen <354...@gmail.com
>:

> My main concern is that some bus stops could be both for tourist buses and
> for public buses. Using ptv2 instead, with public_transport=platform +
> coach=designated or tourist_bus=designated would be easier.
>


if both can stop, it is not a tourist bus stop but a regular bus stop where
coaches can stop. I have difficulties imagining it, but I would not exclude
the possibility. Usually these tourist bus stops are set up in areas with a
lot of traffic and few parking space, in these settings you would not want
tourist busses to block pt bus stops, the setting where it would be
imaginable are low density places where it doesn't matter anyway where you
stop (no problem, next bus in 4 hours). For these cases, it could be a
property for highway=bus_stop (e.g. tourist_bus=yes / boarding(?))

Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 11. Sept. 2019 um 02:35 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <
joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>:

> Thank you for making a proposal, Francesco.
>
> “A tourist bus stop is a stop reserved to tourist buses.”
>
> The main issue is describing the term “tourist bus” clearly.
>
> The related wiki page Key:tourist_bus says:
>
> “The key tourist_bus=* is used to tag legal access restrictions on roads
> for buses that are not acting as public transport vehicle (for the latter
> see bus =*).”
>
> “This tag originated from a literal translation of the Italian word Autobus
> turistici[1]
> , which
> can be understood to be synonymous to a coach.”
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tourist_bus
>
> So is “tourist_bus=yes” identical to “coach=yes”?
>
> Does this include “minibuses” and large “vans” used as vehicles for hire?
>
>

the details may depend on the legislation in the country. Technically, in
many countries a bus is a vehicle where more than 8 people can be
transported. According to the access definition of tourist bus it would
depend on this. (By the way: when the tourist bus tag was invented it
should have become "motor_bus" instead, would have been more consistent and
understandable).

For the boarding area that is proposed here, I am not sure whether vehicles
smaller as coaches, which are used for the same purpose, are allowed to
stop there, but the idea is to have a boarding area which is not the same
as for the regular transport, so if minibusses and vans are part of the
regular (even informal) transport of your area, and they can only stop at
designated bus stops (or minibus stops), then this tag might exclude them
(maybe, what would you suggest? In Italy there is no such network of vans
and minibusses, and while I have used these in other countries, I didn't
completely understand how they were organized and what their legal status
was).



> I assume it excludes intercity buses or buses to national parks, if they
> run on a regular schedule and sell tickets to the general public?
>


it may be up to the local conditions/customs. Think about theses places as
an area where the bus can only stop to board or unboard people, they may
not stay longer, and where public transport does not stop.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Mateusz Konieczny]

what about bus stops used both by 
normal busses and tourism busses?

I would expect highway=bus_stop as
more important feature

10 Sep 2019, 21:07 by franci...@gmail.com:

> Dear list,
>
> please find the proposal for the tag in subject:
> 
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:highway%3Dtourist_bus_stop
>  
> 
>
> the idea was born during a discussion on Talk-it and it is my first tagging 
> attempt, be kind... :)
>
> Cheers
> Francesco
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Il mer 11 set 2019, 04:39 Leif Rasmussen <354...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> My main concern is that some bus stops could be both for tourist buses and
> for public buses. Using ptv2 instead, with public_transport=platform +
> coach=designated or tourist_bus=designated would be easier.
> Leif Rasmussen
>

Sure. That cases can be addressed with existing tags...
But a non-public transport option is missing


> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 8:35 PM Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you for making a proposal, Francesco.
>>
>> “A tourist bus stop is a stop reserved to tourist buses.”
>>
>> The main issue is describing the term “tourist bus” clearly.
>>
>> The related wiki page Key:tourist_bus says:
>>
>> “The key tourist_bus=* is used to tag legal access restrictions on roads
>> for buses that are not acting as public transport vehicle (for the latter
>> see bus =*).”
>>
>> “This tag originated from a literal translation of the Italian word Autobus
>> turistici[1]
>> , which
>> can be understood to be synonymous to a coach.”
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tourist_bus
>>
>> So is “tourist_bus=yes” identical to “coach=yes”?
>>
>> Does this include “minibuses” and large “vans” used as vehicles for hire?
>>
>> I assume it excludes intercity buses or buses to national parks, if they
>> run on a regular schedule and sell tickets to the general public?
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:coach
>>
>> - Joseph
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 3:09 AM Francesco Ansanelli 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear list,
>>>
>>> please find the proposal for the tag in subject:
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:highway%3Dtourist_bus_stop
>>>
>>> the idea was born during a discussion on Talk-it and it is my first
>>> tagging attempt, be kind... :)
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Francesco
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Il mer 11 set 2019, 02:35 Joseph Eisenberg  ha
scritto:

> Thank you for making a proposal, Francesco.
>
> “A tourist bus stop is a stop reserved to tourist buses.”
>
> The main issue is describing the term “tourist bus” clearly.
>
> The related wiki page Key:tourist_bus says:
>
> “The key tourist_bus=* is used to tag legal access restrictions on roads
> for buses that are not acting as public transport vehicle (for the latter
> see bus =*).”
>
> “This tag originated from a literal translation of the Italian word Autobus
> turistici[1]
> , which
> can be understood to be synonymous to a coach.”
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tourist_bus
>
> So is “tourist_bus=yes” identical to “coach=yes”?
>
I think so... But for consistency I would keep the term "tourist_bus"

>
> Does this include “minibuses” and large “vans” used as vehicles for hire?
>
Probably yes

>
> I assume it excludes intercity buses or buses to national parks, if they
> run on a regular schedule and sell tickets to the general public?
>
In my town, the Flixbus buses stop at Central station, this is supposed to
be a one-shot stop

>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:coach
>
> - Joseph
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 3:09 AM Francesco Ansanelli 
> wrote:
>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> please find the proposal for the tag in subject:
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:highway%3Dtourist_bus_stop
>>
>> the idea was born during a discussion on Talk-it and it is my first
>> tagging attempt, be kind... :)
>>
>> Cheers
>> Francesco
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Leif Rasmussen]

My main concern is that some bus stops could be both for tourist buses and
for public buses. Using ptv2 instead, with public_transport=platform +
coach=designated or tourist_bus=designated would be easier.
Leif Rasmussen

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 8:35 PM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> Thank you for making a proposal, Francesco.
>
> “A tourist bus stop is a stop reserved to tourist buses.”
>
> The main issue is describing the term “tourist bus” clearly.
>
> The related wiki page Key:tourist_bus says:
>
> “The key tourist_bus=* is used to tag legal access restrictions on roads
> for buses that are not acting as public transport vehicle (for the latter
> see bus =*).”
>
> “This tag originated from a literal translation of the Italian word Autobus
> turistici[1]
> , which
> can be understood to be synonymous to a coach.”
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tourist_bus
>
> So is “tourist_bus=yes” identical to “coach=yes”?
>
> Does this include “minibuses” and large “vans” used as vehicles for hire?
>
> I assume it excludes intercity buses or buses to national parks, if they
> run on a regular schedule and sell tickets to the general public?
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:coach
>
> - Joseph
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 3:09 AM Francesco Ansanelli 
> wrote:
>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> please find the proposal for the tag in subject:
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:highway%3Dtourist_bus_stop
>>
>> the idea was born during a discussion on Talk-it and it is my first
>> tagging attempt, be kind... :)
>>
>> Cheers
>> Francesco
>>
>> ___
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Thank you for making a proposal, Francesco.

“A tourist bus stop is a stop reserved to tourist buses.”

The main issue is describing the term “tourist bus” clearly.

The related wiki page Key:tourist_bus says:

“The key tourist_bus=* is used to tag legal access restrictions on roads
for buses that are not acting as public transport vehicle (for the latter
see bus =*).”

“This tag originated from a literal translation of the Italian word Autobus
turistici[1]
, which
can be understood to be synonymous to a coach.”

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tourist_bus

So is “tourist_bus=yes” identical to “coach=yes”?

Does this include “minibuses” and large “vans” used as vehicles for hire?

I assume it excludes intercity buses or buses to national parks, if they
run on a regular schedule and sell tickets to the general public?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:coach

- Joseph

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 3:09 AM Francesco Ansanelli 
wrote:

> Dear list,
>
> please find the proposal for the tag in subject:
>
>
> 
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:highway%3Dtourist_bus_stop
>
> the idea was born during a discussion on Talk-it and it is my first
> tagging attempt, be kind... :)
>
> Cheers
> Francesco
>
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