Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 11 lug 2016, alle ore 15:09, Greg Troxel  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> My real point is that "group home" is a loaded term, and using it as a
> tag where it goes beyond the US usage is likely to cause problems.


+1, also for me (with no knowledge about the US at all) this term evoked the 
notion of something quite specific, not just a bunch of people living together. 
It is fine to have this tag available, but it shouldn't be used as a fall back 
for anything residential related.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Greg Troxel]

Tom Pfeifer  writes:

> Greg Troxel wrote on 2016/07/02 01:08:
>
>> Almost no one moves to a "group home" because of age-related mobility or
>> cognitive issues.
>
> Hm, maybe that is not so visible as a facility, but certainly lots of fitter
> seniors join to share a flat, with an individual room for each of them,
> privately organised among them.

In en_US, that is definitely not a "group home".  It's just a residence
with roommates.

My point is that in en_US, "group home" is a word that has very specific
connotations.  It implies very strongly that the residents have issues
that prevent them from living normally in society and that those issues
are not normal age-related ones.

> I also read about experiments with Alzheimer patients to supervise a small
> group of them in a regular apartment in contrast to a nursing home.

That sounds like it fits structurally as "group home".  Culturally it
just barely fits because Alzheimer disease is within normal age-related
problems.  But I wonder how that would fit in the regulatory regime
here.  An Assisted Living Residence license would probably be required.


My real point is that "group home" is a loaded term, and using it as a
tag where it goes beyond the US usage is likely to cause problems.


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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Tom Pfeifer]

Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2016/07/05 12:17:

Maybe we have a more profound problem here with the "social facility" tag, and 
it comes out,

> it wasn't the best of all ideas to have "social facility" as a generic 
category? In the end,
> if this covers all kind of different stuff (soup kitchen, nursing home etc.)

I don't see this problem. I'd keep amenity=social_facility for everything that 
has some
organised social support, from permanent or mobile nurses, supervision, to 
street worker;
in contrast to other things with restrictions.

So Greg's minimum_age condos are not different from fenced residential 
communities with
minimum_income=1 M p.a.

And I'm quite happy that Carto renders social_facility as it does, since I can 
always
hover the question mark over the facility to get the details, or build an 
overlay if
I need to visualise all soup kitchens in the city in blue and the nursing homes 
in green.

tom

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-07-05 11:48 GMT+02:00 Tom Pfeifer :

> Hm, maybe that is not so visible as a facility, but certainly lots of
> fitter
> seniors join to share a flat, with an individual room for each of them,
> privately organised among them.
>



indeed, I don't believe this would qualify in any way as a "social
facility", nor would probably most of those that Greg defined above: "
senior_age_restricted_housing: no special staff compared to any other
apartment, but you have to be >= 55 or 65 and not have children living
there."

Maybe we have a more profound problem here with the "social facility" tag,
and it comes out, it wasn't the best of all ideas to have "social facility"
as a generic category? In the end, if this covers all kind of different
stuff (soup kitchen, nursing home etc.) in one main tag, this main tag
isn't very useful to anyone. On the other hand, we would likely have to put
some residential facilities for elderly under this tag, but others clearly
not. Maybe amenity=retirement_home and nursing_home was somehow better than
this mashup? These are generic terms and could have been subtagged for
special variants (like group homes), although they also bear some problems
(e.g. the fact that most/many residential facilities for elderly offer
both, nursing care and not, within the same facility).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Tom Pfeifer]

Greg Troxel wrote on 2016/07/05 01:08:


So this comes down to being difficutl world wide. I agree with the
notion of the definitions and not getting hung up on the terms.


Yes, but as said earlier, there is a continuum of possibilities, in
particular if you interleave the US definitions you gave with other
schemes worldwide.

Also the same facility might provide more than one scheme. Finally,
the mapper needs to be able to distinguish them, otherwise they would
be misclassified frequently.

So my suggestion is to limit the number of categories, as some details
can be expressed with further tags.


Overall, I'd suggest

  senior_age_restricted_housing: no special staff compared to any other
  apartment, but you have to be >= 55 or 65 and not have children living
  there.


should not be under social_facility.
Give it a building=apartment + min_age=55


  indepdendent_living: apartment with meals and housekeeping, but staff
  do not need a medical-type license.  No help with pills or showering.
  People expected to manage their own issues.

  assisted_living: as above, but help is available e.g. to hand you your
  pills from a locked box on schedule and call the children[...]


would prefer the two types above subsumed under assisted_living,
while the level of assistance can be indicated with further tags:
assisted:housekeeping=yes
assisted:medication=no


  nursing_home: hospital like.  24-hour nursing staff.  usually 2 beds to
  a room.


Yes, that was agreed previously. The number of beds might vary, often
depending on the price you pay.


  continuing_care_community: used to tag the campus of a place that has
  at least nursing_home and one other of the above.


might be difficult to be understand. Maybe the campus gets just a plain
amenity=social_facility, and the different buildings are then tagged
individually.


  group_home: house typically in a regular neighborhood with several
  people with some kind of issues, but who don't fit the pattern above.
  Staff present, but counselors more than medical.  Almost never has a
  sign.


As we can give it a capacity=5 vs capacity=755, we can keep old dormitory style
retirement facilities in this category.


   hospice: facility that is sort of like nursing_home, but private rooms
   and much nicer trying to seem home-like.  People go there when they
   are dying and have decided to stop treatment and just manage pain. [...]


Typical for palliative medicine, yes, +1

tom


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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Tom Pfeifer]

Greg Troxel wrote on 2016/07/02 01:08:


Almost no one moves to a "group home" because of age-related mobility or
cognitive issues.


Hm, maybe that is not so visible as a facility, but certainly lots of fitter
seniors join to share a flat, with an individual room for each of them,
privately organised among them.

I also read about experiments with Alzheimer patients to supervise a small
group of them in a regular apartment in contrast to a nursing home.


I no longer see any facility called retirement home.  I used to, and I
think it was something that was a little bit like AL but less care,
before the state set standards of what could be provided and what
training was needed for people to do it.


There seems to be similar standardisation in Germany, where a nursing cost
insurance is now mandatory, so also how that money is spent is being
regulated.

Colin Smale wrote on 2016/07/02 01:36:

> Why not try taking a more objective approach with the tagging? I mean less
> emphasis on what it is called (which clearly varies widely and is subject to
> discussion) and more emphasis on what it is, which should be less 
controversial
> and give a quicker convergence.

+1

tom


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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Greg Troxel]

Martin Koppenhoefer  writes:

> How would you call this:
> http://www.berkretirement.com/LivingOptions/RetirementLiving ?

That looks like two related facilities, one that is probably
"independent living" (meaning own appt, meals/housekeeping provided),
and one nursing home, with the idea that if you move into the lower-care
place, you can more easily and comfortably transition to nursing care
later.  These sorts of places should be tagged as two places; they are
usually distinct.  They are also called in aggregate a "continuing care
community".

http://www.mass.gov/elders/housing/ccrc/

> This kind of facility (retirement home) comes in lots of different styles
> and prize/luxury ranges, often these are combined nursing homes (i.e.
> according to what you require, you will either have nursing home care or be
> able to do more stuff on your own and have more independence).

Yes, but I'm pretty sure you move from the retirement wing to the
nursing wing when you need services that the assisted living or
independent wing cannot legally provide.  I've seen that happen
regularly with a similar place that has "assisted living" in one
building and "nursing home" in another on the same campus.   One feels
like apartments with staff; the other nearly a hospital.

> I've been to a lot of these facilities (as well as hospitals, nursing
> homes and psychiatric hospitals etc., in the majority for elderly
> people) in Germany some time ago as part of my civil service. The
> range of what I found there was huge, from really nice places to
> almost prison feeling (including bars on the windows and staircases).

I am surprised at bars, but maybe that's the psychiatric hospital.
There is also 'secure memory unit' in both ALR and nursing home for
Alzheimer's patitents at risk of wandering.  Usually the point is to
keep people from wandering while appearing as nice as possible.

> Maybe the example above would fall under "assisted living"? Actually,
> researching superficially (or at least not very profoundly) in the web, it
> seems as if "assisted_living" is a poorly defined term in general, and can
> mean a lot of thinks,

In en_US, and especially in Massachusetts, "Assisted Living Residence"
is very well defined;

  
http://www.mass.gov/elders/housing/assisted-living/assisted-living-program-overview.html
  http://www.mass.gov/elders/regs-stats/housing/

I think the place you linked to, at its lower level, is not an ALR or
they would have said it.  Meaning they don't do "self-administered
medication management" or assitance with showering and don't have an ALR
license.  Assistance is likely limited to cooking/cleaning - the kinds
of housekeeping that anyone might have, and for which no professional
license is needed for the workers.

> including group homes, people living in their own
> homes and having someone looking after them from time to time, etc..

That may be true in en_X for X != US.  This is the usual problem of the
normal interpretation of words that are used by the speaker more
formally.  In the US, "assisted living" is a term usually defined by the 
government.

> The OSM wiki has this definition for at least 5-6 years: "A residential
> facility like group_home, but the looked after are more independent (e.g
> have own flats). Usually conceived for people with "slight" disabilities
> (e.g. residential care home for eldery people)"

That's not really the right definition in the US.   I know that at least
Vermont and Texas have similar laws to Mass about assisted living
(slight detail differences, but conceptually very close).


So this comes down to being difficutl world wide. I agree with the
notion of the definitions and not getting hung up on the terms.
Overall, I'd suggest

 senior_age_restricted_housing: no special staff compared to any other
 apartment, but you have to be >= 55 or 65 and not have children living
 there.

 indepdendent_living: apartment with meals and housekeeping, but staff
 do not need a medical-type license.  No help with pills or showering.
 People expected to manage their own issues.

 assisted_living: as above, but help is available e.g. to hand you your
 pills from a locked box on schedule and call the children if you don't,
 and help with showering, escorts to meals.  Staff needs some sort of
 "personal care assistent" licensing, which is much less than a nursing
 certification but more than "housekeeper".  Staff expects residents'
 children to manage their issues for some people, others to self-manage.
 usually own apartment.

 nursing_home: hospital like.  24-hour nursing staff.  usually 2 beds to
 a room.

 continuing_care_community: used to tag the campus of a place that has
 at least nursing_home and one other of the above.

as the catgories.  All of the above typically have signs.  Plus

 group_home: house typically in a regular neighborhood with several
 people with some kind of issues, but who don't fit the pattern above.
 Staff present, but counselors more than medical.  A

Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-07-03 15:57 GMT+02:00 Greg Troxel :

> > while the retirement home is a big
> > institutionalized facility, more similar to a hospital (but without
> > the illness, and need for extensive medical care, or it would be a
> > nursing home)
>
> Around Massachusetts, as far as I can tell, these do not exist.




How would you call this:
http://www.berkretirement.com/LivingOptions/RetirementLiving ?

This kind of facility (retirement home) comes in lots of different styles
and prize/luxury ranges, often these are combined nursing homes (i.e.
according to what you require, you will either have nursing home care or be
able to do more stuff on your own and have more independence). I've been to
a lot of these facilities (as well as hospitals, nursing homes and
psychiatric hospitals etc., in the majority for elderly people) in Germany
some time ago as part of my civil service. The range of what I found there
was huge, from really nice places to almost prison feeling (including bars
on the windows and staircases).

Maybe the example above would fall under "assisted living"? Actually,
researching superficially (or at least not very profoundly) in the web, it
seems as if "assisted_living" is a poorly defined term in general, and can
mean a lot of thinks, including group homes, people living in their own
homes and having someone looking after them from time to time, etc..
The OSM wiki has this definition for at least 5-6 years: "A residential
facility like group_home, but the looked after are more independent (e.g
have own flats). Usually conceived for people with "slight" disabilities
(e.g. residential care home for eldery people)"

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Il giorno 03 lug 2016, alle ore 10:44, Colin Smale 
ha scritto:
>
> We just need a system for this to be classified and tagged in OSM. Is it
for the "elderly", "physically disabled", "mentally ill", "terminally ill",
or what?


actually the amenity=social_facilty tag works exactly like that. There are
subtags to combine different aspects into a whole. What you are likely
looking for is social_facility:for=*
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:social_facility:for

It is one of the achievements of the new tagging style for social
facilities (and what falls under this term according to OSM's definitions)
 to have created this small "vocabulary" of distinct properties which
together make up the meaning. It is also its weak side on the other hand,
because someone with a database like Carto-OSM (the main OSM map) can now
not see from the available tags if something is a soup kitchen, a daycare,
a workshop or a nursing home. They just see that it is some kind of social
facility (until they restructure their database and are able to see the
important details).



Obviously we will eventually have to settle on tagging for these attributes
> - if anyone wants them in OSM - but that comes after we have a think about
> how we decide to model them. Let us not rush to find a solution to the
> tagging question before we have explored, understood and analyzed the
> subject a bit more.



actually, as part of these requirements you name are already there, I'd
rather rush to fill the (important) gaps like "retirement home" (as social
facility typological category) or at least remove the bogus recommendation
from the wiki to tag these generally as "group homes" or "assisted living",
which they aren't (at least not all of them), and encourage people to stick
to the established tag (amenity=retirement_home) until the social facility
multitag-approach gets amended with the required valus.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Greg Troxel]

Martin Koppenhoefer  writes:

> sent from a phone
>
>> Il giorno 02 lug 2016, alle ore 01:36, Colin Smale  
>> ha scritto:
>> 
>> So if you think both a retirement home and assisted living
>> accommodation are the same thing, it doesn't matter much which of
>> these is used in OSM (we usually follow British English if
>> possible). If you think there is some subtle difference, what is the
>> essential difference in terms of the characteristics mentioned
>> above?
>
>
> for the target group there is already a different tag.
>
> The difference between the two is (and I believe that's more than
> subtle), that assisted living means you live on your own, probably in
> your own apartment, according to the times you want to, and get
> assistance on request,

more or less agreed

> while the retirement home is a big
> institutionalized facility, more similar to a hospital (but without
> the illness, and need for extensive medical care, or it would be a
> nursing home)

Around Massachusetts, as far as I can tell, these do not exist.


Part of what's going on is that at least in the US, these places are
regulated, and each regulating body (states here) define categories, and
in each category limit what can be done and have requirements for staff
training.  While in a totally free society there could be a continuum of
places, in practice they coalesce into these defined categories, and
places are very much one or the other.



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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Greg Troxel]

Colin Smale  writes:

> A commercial website is not the same as a dictionary Commercial
> entities can have an interest in not using generic terminology, whereas
> a dictionary is all about ensuring a common understanding.

Agreed.

> A "group home" is, to me (UK English native speaker), a phrase
> consisting of two words, and I can easily imagine what might be
> meant. It is not (again, to my understanding) an accepted phrase that
> would deserve its own lemma in an English dictionary or a translation
> dictionary.

In contemporary en_US, it has a fairly clear meaning and I think most
people understand it with some degree of uncertainty in meaning.

It's a regular house in a regular neighborhood, but instead of a family
or perhaps a few roommates, has some small number, 4-6 probably, maybe
8, of people that have some issues, usually significant mental
developmental disability, some kind of addiction, or some kind of
psychiatric issues.  Residents are typically mostly ok physically.  Most
people would expect the people to have similar or at least compatible
issues.  And then someone who is staff (paid) who also lives there, or
rotating staff to supervise and help, more with structure than with
individual physical help.

Long ago (60s?), some people that are now in group homes would likely in
state mental institutions, and at some point those were shuttered,
largely without an alternative plan.  The group homes are more or less
part of the emerged alternative plan.  (I am intentionally avoiding
saying anything about this is simple or clearcut.)

Because of the above, people mostly do not use the phrase group home to
describe a place for elderly people with mild cognitive impairment,
dementia or mobility issues, because such people would not have been
"institutionalized" in the 60s, even if they were in a nursing home.

Do you have something like an en_US "group home" in the UK?

> Hence I think it does not belong in OSM, which ideally needs tagging
> to be understood worldwide by people for whom English is an additional
> language.

This is the central difficulty with tags :_) They are both something to
be intuitively understood, which is very difficult, and something that
has a precisely defined meaning, which is awkward when people think they
know what they mean and it differs from the formal definition.  By that
notion and the above en_US description, "group home" is probably
particularly troublesome and best avoided as a tag.


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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Colin Smale]

On 2016-07-03 02:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
>> Il giorno 02 lug 2016, alle ore 18:03, Colin Smale  
>> ha scritto:
>> 
>> A commercial website is not the same as a dictionary Commercial entities 
>> can have an interest in not using generic terminology, whereas a dictionary 
>> is all about ensuring a common understanding. A "group home" is, to me (UK 
>> English native speaker), a phrase consisting of two words, and I can easily 
>> imagine what might be meant. It is not (again, to my understanding) an 
>> accepted phrase that would deserve its own lemma in an English dictionary or 
>> a translation dictionary.
> 
> http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/group-home?q=group+home

OK, thanks Martin, I concede that it is in a dictionary. It adds a bit
of value to the simple juxtaposition of the two words; I would like to
highlight the following key concepts: 

1) the residents are not related, i.e. they do not form a family unit 

2) they are "living together" 

3) they are doing this for "care, support or supervision" 

Points 2 and 3 leave it very open as to how independent their
accommodation is (own street entrance? independent houses? apartments in
a block?)  and what kind of "care, support or supervision" is provided.
What makes it different from a simple apartment complex? Probably the
provision of "care, support or supervision". We just need a system for
this to be classified and tagged in OSM. Is it for the "elderly",
"physically disabled", "mentally ill", "terminally ill", or what? What
communal facilities are there (meals? hairdressers? 24-hour on call
medical staff?)? Is it intended for long-term residency, or for shorter
periods such as recovery/rehabilitation from a specific occurrence
(operation, fall etc), or respite care? 

Obviously we will eventually have to settle on tagging for these
attributes - if anyone wants them in OSM - but that comes after we have
a think about how we decide to model them. Let us not rush to find a
solution to the tagging question before we have explored, understood and
analyzed the subject a bit more. 

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 02 lug 2016, alle ore 18:03, Colin Smale  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> A commercial website is not the same as a dictionary Commercial entities 
> can have an interest in not using generic terminology, whereas a dictionary 
> is all about ensuring a common understanding. A "group home" is, to me (UK 
> English native speaker), a phrase consisting of two words, and I can easily 
> imagine what might be meant. It is not (again, to my understanding) an 
> accepted phrase that would deserve its own lemma in an English dictionary or 
> a translation dictionary.


http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/group-home?q=group+home


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Colin Smale]

A commercial website is not the same as a dictionary Commercial
entities can have an interest in not using generic terminology, whereas
a dictionary is all about ensuring a common understanding. A "group
home" is, to me (UK English native speaker), a phrase consisting of two
words, and I can easily imagine what might be meant. It is not (again,
to my understanding) an accepted phrase that would deserve its own lemma
in an English dictionary or a translation dictionary. Hence I think it
does not belong in OSM, which ideally needs tagging to be understood
worldwide by people for whom English is an additional language. 

The website says "RESIDENTIAL CARE HOMES, also known as SENIOR GROUP
HOMES,..." and I would suggest that the first term is more widely
understood than the second.

//colin 

On 2016-07-02 17:39, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
>> Il giorno 02 lug 2016, alle ore 01:00, Greg Troxel  ha 
>> scritto:
>> 
>> Again, none of these would ever be called (in the US) group homes.
> 
> . Group home implies living in (small) groups. There are group homes for 
> elderly (as a specific kind of assisted living).
> 
> https://www.senioradvisor.com/ind/senior-group-homes
> 
> cheers,
> Martin 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 02 lug 2016, alle ore 01:00, Greg Troxel  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Again, none of these would ever be called (in the US) group homes.


. Group home implies living in (small) groups. There are group homes for 
elderly (as a specific kind of assisted living).

https://www.senioradvisor.com/ind/senior-group-homes

cheers,
Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 02 lug 2016, alle ore 01:36, Colin Smale  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> So if you think both a retirement home and assisted living accommodation are 
> the same thing, it doesn't matter much which of these is used in OSM (we 
> usually follow British English if possible). If you think there is some 
> subtle difference, what is the essential difference in terms of the 
> characteristics mentioned above?


for the target group there is already a different tag.

The difference between the two is (and I believe that's more than subtle), that 
assisted living means you live on your own, probably in your own apartment, 
according to the times you want to, and get assistance on request, while the 
retirement home is a big institutionalized facility, more similar to a hospital 
(but without the illness, and need for extensive medical care, or it would be a 
nursing home) or a prison (with more "luxury" and mostly without the bars, 
unless it is some kind of psychiatric facility), with a fix time plan, a curfew 
(I think), people eating the same stuff, collective animation, etc.


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[John Willis]

> On Jul 2, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> 
> few (maybe 3 in 100) will be younger, but have some kind of mobility or
> cognitive impairment that basically is the same situation.

My uncle was in a hospital-like nursing home (very institutional) which as full 
of old people, while he was in his 40's - because a big piece of his brain was 
damaged and as also unable to walk. He was the rare younger person in a place 
dominated by elderly people that needed constant care, and was there for years. 
There will always be a few people outside of a bell curve, but it was a 
"nursing home" - not some elderly group home with everyone playing ground golf 
outside and making puzzles in the rec room. 

My wife works in special Education, with students with autism and other mental 
issues - they may be trying to teach them language and words for an hour and 
how to properly go to the restroom the next hour - they are both care - but no 
one is confusing the nursing homes with special education schools or care 
facilities. 

A month ago, my 90 year old godmother refused to eat and her condition 
deteriorated and ended up (for her last few weeks) in a "care facility" of some 
type (a "hospital" in Japanese just for sick very-elderly people) -  that, to 
put it very bluntly, was the last small step for many people before their 
imminent death - every function of their life, down to moving them with a 
"turning sheet" on the bed and raising their head to eat is handled. It is a 
very far cry from a group home for addicts or parolees, a "senior community" of 
55s and up that mostly live independently, or a nursing home where people live 
out their lives with nurses and orderlies for a decade or more (like my Mother 
in Law does or my Great Grandmother did).

Being able to separate them in some way (you guys decide) would be great. I 
know there are grey areas and overlap, but there are "stereotypes" of these 
facilities for a reason - there are thousands upon thousands of them in each 
country that can be sorted easily into separate buckets with no ambiguity.  If 
handling the last 5% is an issue, them maybe some extended foo:bar=yes tag 
extensions can help define the unicorns is in order - but there needs to be 
some basic tag that split them up first. Having several to choose from (As I 
understand it) make it easier for taggers and parsers to figure out what the 
amenity is.  

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Colin Smale]

Why not try taking a more objective approach with the tagging? I mean
less emphasis on what it is called (which clearly varies widely and is
subject to discussion) and more emphasis on what it is, which should be
less controversial and give a quicker convergence. 

One might consider characteristics like: 

* Do residents have their own door onto a public area, or onto a
private communal area?
* Is there 24 hour medical care available?
* Is there other 24 hour support?
* Is there a communal dining facility?
* What is the target group? Old and infirm? Mentally ill?
Rehabilitation following serious trauma?

These are only a selection of what came to mind. 

So if you think both a retirement home and assisted living accommodation
are the same thing, it doesn't matter much which of these is used in OSM
(we usually follow British English if possible). If you think there is
some subtle difference, what is the essential difference in terms of the
characteristics mentioned above? Maybe it is sufficient to distinguish
them by using (for example) communal_dining=no. 

//colin 

On 2016-07-02 01:08, Greg Troxel wrote:

> Martin Koppenhoefer  writes:
> 
>> Wikipedia also seems to confirm that this is a specific service
>> (although I don't buy the "too young for a retirement home" part):
>> 
>> "Assisted living as it exists today emerged in the 1990s as an
>> eldercare alternative on the continuum of care for people, for whom
>> independent living is not appropriate but who do not need the 24-hour
>> medical care provided by a nursing home and are too young to live in a
>> retirement home. Assisted living is a philosophy of care and services
>> promoting independence and dignity."
> 
> The first half of the first sentence is correct, but the 2nd half is
> bogus.  It's also out of line by wikipedia's standards.
> 
> I have seen assisted living places in the US.  There, 70-75 is young,
> and most of the residents have some kind of age-related difficulty that
> makes it awkward, unsafe, or unpleasant to be in independent living.  A
> few (maybe 3 in 100) will be younger, but have some kind of mobility or
> cognitive impairment that basically is the same situation.  Now, people
> basically transition from being in some kind of regular residential
> (house, condo, maybe indpendent living) to assisted living, and then to
> nursing home (some skipping AL with acute onset of problems, and some
> dying before either step, of course).
> 
> Almost no one moves to a "group home" because of age-related mobility or
> cognitive issues.
> 
> I no longer see any facility called retirement home.  I used to, and I
> think it was something that was a little bit like AL but less care,
> before the state set standards of what could be provided and what
> training was needed for people to do it. 
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Greg Troxel]

Martin Koppenhoefer  writes:

> Wikipedia also seems to confirm that this is a specific service
> (although I don't buy the "too young for a retirement home" part):
>
> "Assisted living as it exists today emerged in the 1990s as an
> eldercare alternative on the continuum of care for people, for whom
> independent living is not appropriate but who do not need the 24-hour
> medical care provided by a nursing home and are too young to live in a
> retirement home. Assisted living is a philosophy of care and services
> promoting independence and dignity."

The first half of the first sentence is correct, but the 2nd half is
bogus.  It's also out of line by wikipedia's standards.

I have seen assisted living places in the US.  There, 70-75 is young,
and most of the residents have some kind of age-related difficulty that
makes it awkward, unsafe, or unpleasant to be in independent living.  A
few (maybe 3 in 100) will be younger, but have some kind of mobility or
cognitive impairment that basically is the same situation.  Now, people
basically transition from being in some kind of regular residential
(house, condo, maybe indpendent living) to assisted living, and then to
nursing home (some skipping AL with acute onset of problems, and some
dying before either step, of course).

Almost no one moves to a "group home" because of age-related mobility or
cognitive issues.

I no longer see any facility called retirement home.  I used to, and I
think it was something that was a little bit like AL but less care,
before the state set standards of what could be provided and what
training was needed for people to do it.


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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Greg Troxel]

Martin Koppenhoefer  writes:

> AFAIK assisted living is a more specific term then it might seem at
> first sight, a kind of residence within apartments and assistance on
> demand, as opposed to a retirement home with less privacy and more
> institutional character, but the term is also more generic in its
> meaning I guess.

In many US states, "assisted living residence" (ALR) is a term defined
by the government, which limits on services provided.

The term "retirement home" could be an informal term for an ALR, in
which case no separate tag is needed.  I would expect it to be something
that is less than ALR in terms of services, but where people interact
more than in "independent living".

So I suggest that we defer talking about tagging for "retirement homes"
until we get some specfic examples of places that

  are not regular residential with age restrictions,
  are not "independent living",
  are not ALRs,
  and are not nursing homes.

Again, none of these would ever be called (in the US) group homes.  And
none of these places would be called social facilities.


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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 01 lug 2016, alle ore 21:41, Tom Pfeifer  
> ha scritto:
> 
> There is certainly a general trend to provide such social services on a 
> smaller
> scale, e.g. children are not locked into dormitory-style orphanages
> anymore but cared for in family-like group-home structures, and the elderly
> live in smaller units equipped with their own furniture.


yes, there's this trend, but it doesn't mean you can't find any "oldschool" 
institutions anywhere in the world by now. I believe the social facility 
tagging originally closed a gap for tagging more things of the "social world", 
but it didn't replace (with the original values) the established tags nursing 
home and retirement home (it likely kept them out on purpose because they've 
already been set).

As there seems now a will to unify these similar features all under the social 
facility umbrella (btw. with the current rendering db used for carto osm, it 
will become impossible to distinguish between a group home for young drug 
addicts or a nursing home for seniors or a daycare, they're all be social 
facilities for a moment), it seems logical that we provide "social_facility" 
values for them.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Tom Pfeifer]

As we have seen from the nursing home discussion, there is a continuum of 
variations
of such facilities, with overlapping concepts.

In OSM we need to decide, how many distinctive tags we need.

There was a clear need to separate group_home from nursing_home.

I'm not convinced yet that we need to separate assisted_living from 
retirement_home.
capacity=N can express how institutional the facility feels.

There is certainly a general trend to provide such social services on a smaller
scale, e.g. children are not locked into dormitory-style orphanages
anymore but cared for in family-like group-home structures, and the elderly
live in smaller units equipped with their own furniture.

There is also major research going on to support and monitor certain
Activities of Daily Living (ADLs) electronically, e.g. with the upcoming
Internet of Things, with a clear target to keep people independent longer
and to cope with escalating nursing cost.

tom

Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2016/07/01 20:40:

Il giorno 01 lug 2016, alle ore 19:02, Tom Pfeifer ha scritto:


As it is not a nursing home, there is no constant nursing. So a nurse might be
available on request, or there might be age-specific animation, so it is either
"assisted living" or a "group home", depending on the level of assistance and 
structure.



AFAIK assisted living is a more specific term then it might seem at first 
sight, a kind of residence within apartments and assistance on demand, as 
opposed to a retirement home with less privacy and more institutional 
character, but the term is also more
generic in its meaning I guess.

Wikipedia also seems to confirm that this is a specific service (although I don't buy the 
"too young for a retirement home" part):

"Assisted living as it exists today emerged in the 1990s as an eldercare 
 alternative on the continuum of care for 
people, for whom independent living  
is not
appropriate but who do not need the 24-hour medical care provided by a nursing home 
and are too young to live in a retirement home 
. Assisted living is a 
philosophy of care and services promoting
independence and dignity."



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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 01 lug 2016, alle ore 19:02, Tom Pfeifer  
> ha scritto:
> 
> As it is not a nursing home, there is no constant nursing. So a nurse might be
> available on request, or there might be age-specific animation, so it is 
> either
> "assisted living" or a "group home", depending on the level of assistance and 
> structure.


AFAIK assisted living is a more specific term then it might seem at first 
sight, a kind of residence within apartments and assistance on demand, as 
opposed to a retirement home with less privacy and more institutional 
character, but the term is also more generic in its meaning I guess.

Wikipedia also seems to confirm that this is a specific service (although I 
don't buy the "too young for a retirement home" part): 

"Assisted living as it exists today emerged in the 1990s as an eldercare 
alternative on the continuum of care for people, for whom independent living is 
not appropriate but who do not need the 24-hour medical care provided by a 
nursing home and are too young to live in a retirement home. Assisted living is 
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Tom Pfeifer]

Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2016/07/01 17:13:

After the recent discussion nursing homes, there is a similar situation with 
retirement_homes.

I suggest to introduce a new tag social_facility=retirement_home for these. 
Currently, there are examples on this page: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:social_facility#Examples
suggesting that retirement homes should be tagged as group homes. This doesn't 
seem right, as social_facility=group_home suggests a group home, not a 
retirement home. See also: https://xkcd.com/703/

The "old" page for retirement homes suggests even another combination, 
assisted_living. This doesn't sound right either, as it is a tag for assisted living. 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dretirement_home See also the xkcd above.


Well, the question is first, what does the Retirement Home provide.

As it is not a nursing home, there is no constant nursing. So a nurse might be
available on request, or there might be age-specific animation, so it is either
"assisted living" or a "group home", depending on the level of assistance and 
structure.

Or it is one of the Condos/Apartment blocks with minimum age (legal or not) 
that was
mentioned in the previous discussion, then it would be no social_facility at 
all,
it would be just a building=residential with min_age=60.

tom

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