Re: [Tagging] give way and stop tag for ways
On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: I personally find the traffic_signal:direction tag to be clunky, but it is in the wiki for traffic signals where many/most mappers will find it. And traffic signals are a member of the same class as stop and yield signs in my mind: Things that control right of way at an intersection. It's more than clunky. It's simply failing when someone is reversing the way direction with its prefered editor... I will repeat here what I already said about traffic signals : I also don't like relations in general excepted when we have no alternative. Everybody shall be able to add a node saying here is a traffic light or here is a stop sign. But once you want it to be workable by software, it will need to be linked to its intersection. And for this, the best solution is the relation. It could be even added half-automatically (with some manual validation) when it's missing by searching the nearest intersection (could be a job for a QA tool). I guess something similar is done for speed traps. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] give way and stop tag for ways
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 11:30 PM, Balázs Barcsik 1. extend highway=give_way (and stop) to able to use on ways https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dgive_way And how to interpret the tag if the way is between two intersections ? Surely not a good solution. 2. define a new tag: priority_road=give_way (stop) link to existing tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Apriority_road This is more country specific and will not solve many give_way cases where there is no priority road signed. 3. define new tag: priority=give_way (stop) link to existing tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:priority A lot of new tags for only one feature, no ? 4. define new type - priority: link to my proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:_relation:priority Only 15 relations are of type=priority in OSM ([1]). The type junction is even more popular (although mainly contributed by the same person). Pieren [1] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/relations/priority ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] give way and stop tag for ways
My understanding is that a give_way node on a way should be placed such that it is closer to the relevant intersection than it is to any other intersection of that way. Thus, as long as you can work out (from this proximity) which intersection it relates to, you have all the information you need to handle it properly: it applies to traffic passing that node heading towards the relevant intersection. Steve On 04/11/2013 22:30, Balázs Barcsik wrote: Hi There! I would like to introduce give_way and stop alerts into navigation tools such as OSMAnd. For this approach a good tagging is needed. So when someone driving and arrives to an intersection then the app would show give way or stop depending on which road he/she is. (or nothing if the road is a priority one) Can you help me define this in a proper way? I think there are several options: 1. extend highway=give_way (and stop) to able to use on ways https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dgive_way 2. define a new tag: priority_road=give_way (stop) link to existing tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Apriority_road 3. define new tag: priority=give_way (stop) link to existing tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:priority 4. define new type - priority: link to my proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:_relation:priority Thanks, Balazs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] give way and stop tag for ways
Think about oneway tag. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing That is a property of a way. So as a routing app I just would like to examine this tag, and forget the relations restrictions: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:restriction Because it is a redundancy - if the oneway tag used properly the routing app can determine whether you can turn right in an intersection or not. In other words - if someone missed defining the road signs at intersections (eg, restriction=no_left_turn) then this does not mean that you can turn left. So I would prefer to create such tags for priority cases - which can be assigned to ways Thanks, Balazs On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.comwrote: My understanding is that a give_way node on a way should be placed such that it is closer to the relevant intersection than it is to any other intersection of that way. Thus, as long as you can work out (from this proximity) which intersection it relates to, you have all the information you need to handle it properly: it applies to traffic passing that node heading towards the relevant intersection. Steve On 04/11/2013 22:30, Balázs Barcsik wrote: Hi There! I would like to introduce give_way and stop alerts into navigation tools such as OSMAnd. For this approach a good tagging is needed. So when someone driving and arrives to an intersection then the app would show give way or stop depending on which road he/she is. (or nothing if the road is a priority one) Can you help me define this in a proper way? I think there are several options: 1. extend highway=give_way (and stop) to able to use on ways https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dgive_way 2. define a new tag: priority_road=give_way (stop) link to existing tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Apriority_road 3. define new tag: priority=give_way (stop) link to existing tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:priority 4. define new type - priority: link to my proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:_relation:priority Thanks, Balazs ___ Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] give way and stop tag for ways
On Tue, 5 Nov 2013, Balázs Barcsik wrote: Think about oneway tag.http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing That is a property of a way. So as a routing app I just would like to examine this tag, and forget the relations restrictions: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:restriction Because it is a redundancy - if the oneway tag used properly the routing app can determine whether you can turn right in an intersection or not. In other words - if someone missed defining the road signs at intersections (eg, restriction=no_left_turn) then this does not mean that you can turn left. So I would prefer to create such tags for priority cases - which can be assigned to ways No, you are simply wrong here. Oneway is a legal concept that really applies for the way and it is different from turning restrictions that applies to particular combination of traversing on the graph edges (ie., a relation). And you cannot ignore turning restrictions as it by no means guarantees that the way itself is oneway legally, just the turning is forbidden from the way you're coming from. -- i.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] give way and stop tag for ways
Do you think that routing/navigation apps are using turn restrictions tags instead of oneway tag to create the route? I dont think so... On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Ilpo Järvinen ilpo.jarvi...@helsinki.fiwrote: On Tue, 5 Nov 2013, Balázs Barcsik wrote: Think about oneway tag.http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing That is a property of a way. So as a routing app I just would like to examine this tag, and forget the relations restrictions: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:restriction Because it is a redundancy - if the oneway tag used properly the routing app can determine whether you can turn right in an intersection or not. In other words - if someone missed defining the road signs at intersections (eg, restriction=no_left_turn) then this does not mean that you can turn left. So I would prefer to create such tags for priority cases - which can be assigned to ways No, you are simply wrong here. Oneway is a legal concept that really applies for the way and it is different from turning restrictions that applies to particular combination of traversing on the graph edges (ie., a relation). And you cannot ignore turning restrictions as it by no means guarantees that the way itself is oneway legally, just the turning is forbidden from the way you're coming from. -- i. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] give way and stop tag for ways
On Tue, 5 Nov 2013, Balázs Barcsik wrote: Do you think that routing/navigation apps are using turn restrictions tags instead of oneway tag to create the route?I dont think so... It's still wrong even if everyone would be doing it. :-) And btw, I was only saying that in order to get it right, you cannot ignore the turn restrictions (not claiming that one should use them only instead of oneway or something along those lines). -- i.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] give way and stop tag for ways
There are lots of cases where routing software uses turn restrictions, it would be next to useless if it relied on oneways alone. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 05/11/2013 13:09 Balázs Barcsik wrote: Do you think that routing/navigation apps are using turn restrictions tags instead of oneway tag to create the route? I dont think so... On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Ilpo Järvinen ilpo.jarvi...@helsinki.fi wrote: On Tue, 5 Nov 2013, Balázs Barcsik wrote: Think about oneway tag.http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing That is a property of a way. So as a routing app I just would like to examine this tag, and forget the relations restrictions: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:restriction Because it is a redundancy - if the oneway tag used properly the routing app can determine whether you can turn right in an intersection or not. In other words - if someone missed defining the road signs at intersections (eg, restriction=no_left_turn) then this does not mean that you can turn left. So I would prefer to create such tags for priority cases - which can be assigned to ways No, you are simply wrong here. Oneway is a legal concept that really applies for the way and it is different from turning restrictions that applies to particular combination of traversing on the graph edges (ie., a relation). And you cannot ignore turning restrictions as it by no means guarantees that the way itself is oneway legally, just the turning is forbidden from the way you're coming from. -- i. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] give way and stop tag for ways
On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Balázs Barcsik balazs.barc...@gmail.com wrote: Do you think that routing/navigation apps are using turn restrictions tags instead of oneway tag to create the route? I dont think so... Back to your original post, you want to introduce alerts into navigation tools. But you seem to have some gaps on this subject. Of course, routing engines have to handle both, turn restriction relations and oneways tags on ways. But, as already said, the oneway restriction applies to the whole way, for all vehicles arriving there, even from private properties. Where stops or giveway are just prioritizing the access to an intersection. Like traffic signals, they should have a minor impact on the routing itself (some small penalties compared to the highway importance). What you ask is more please GPS, tell me the traffic signs I'm just seeing now with my eyes. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] give way and stop tag for ways
On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 5:25 AM, Balázs Barcsik balazs.barc...@gmail.comwrote: So I would prefer to create such tags for priority cases - which can be assigned to ways This breaks down in North America, which lacks this concept. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] give way and stop tag for ways
And in the UK, I have only come across priority diamonds in mainland Europe. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 05/11/2013 15:20 Paul Johnson wrote: On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 5:25 AM, Balázs Barcsik balazs.barc...@gmail.com wrote: So I would prefer to create such tags for priority cases - which can be assigned to ways This breaks down in North America, which lacks this concept. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] give way and stop tag for ways
A fifth method might be to use forward and backward tags on the node where the sign is tagged much like one of the suggested methods for tagging traffic signals. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traffic_signal#Tag_all_incoming_ways Seems like one uniform way of tagging traffic control signs and signals should be possible and desirable. Tod -- Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse my brevity. Balázs Barcsik balazs.barc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi There! I would like to introduce give_way and stop alerts into navigation tools such as OSMAnd. For this approach a good tagging is needed. So when someone driving and arrives to an intersection then the app would show give way or stop depending on which road he/she is. (or nothing if the road is a priority one) Can you help me define this in a proper way? I think there are several options: 1. extend highway=give_way (and stop) to able to use on ways https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dgive_way 2. define a new tag: priority_road=give_way (stop) link to existing tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Apriority_road 3. define new tag: priority=give_way (stop) link to existing tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:priority 4. define new type - priority: link to my proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:_relation:priority Thanks, Balazs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] give way and stop tag for ways
Regardless of whether or not a direction tag is considered I think the following three items should be met: 1. Should be consistent for both mapping signs and signals. At least for stop signs in the areas I drive, they seem to present the same mapping issues (location to mark, directionality of traffic they control, etc.) as traffic signals. 2. Should be easy for non-expert mappers to add and edit. Relations are conceptually nice for many things. But the tools to make them easy to add and especially to edit seem to be difficult for many users. 3. Should be easy for the data consumers to parse and use. No so much worried about display purposes as for routing in this case. I personally find the traffic_signal:direction tag to be clunky, but it is in the wiki for traffic signals where many/most mappers will find it. And traffic signals are a member of the same class as stop and yield signs in my mind: Things that control right of way at an intersection. -Tod On Mon, November 4, 2013 3:42 pm, fly wrote: Please not again forward/backward on nodes. We have direction for nodes only need to state if you mean the driving direction or the facing direction. cu fly Am 05.11.2013 00:16, schrieb Tod Fitch: A fifth method might be to use forward and backward tags on the node where the sign is tagged much like one of the suggested methods for tagging traffic signals. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traffic_signal#Tag_all_incoming_ways Seems like one uniform way of tagging traffic control signs and signals should be possible and desirable. Tod -- Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse my brevity. Balázs Barcsik balazs.barc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi There! I would like to introduce give_way and stop alerts into navigation tools such as OSMAnd. For this approach a good tagging is needed. So when someone driving and arrives to an intersection then the app would show give way or stop depending on which road he/she is. (or nothing if the road is a priority one) Can you help me define this in a proper way? I think there are several options: 1. extend highway=give_way (and stop) to able to use on ways https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dgive_way 2. define a new tag: priority_road=give_way (stop) link to existing tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Apriority_road 3. define new tag: priority=give_way (stop) link to existing tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:priority 4. define new type - priority: link to my proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:_relation:priority Thanks, Balazs Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] give way and stop tag for ways
This all really sounds like a job for relations, similar to enforcement relations. On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 6:23 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: Regardless of whether or not a direction tag is considered I think the following three items should be met: 1. Should be consistent for both mapping signs and signals. At least for stop signs in the areas I drive, they seem to present the same mapping issues (location to mark, directionality of traffic they control, etc.) as traffic signals. 2. Should be easy for non-expert mappers to add and edit. Relations are conceptually nice for many things. But the tools to make them easy to add and especially to edit seem to be difficult for many users. 3. Should be easy for the data consumers to parse and use. No so much worried about display purposes as for routing in this case. I personally find the traffic_signal:direction tag to be clunky, but it is in the wiki for traffic signals where many/most mappers will find it. And traffic signals are a member of the same class as stop and yield signs in my mind: Things that control right of way at an intersection. -Tod On Mon, November 4, 2013 3:42 pm, fly wrote: Please not again forward/backward on nodes. We have direction for nodes only need to state if you mean the driving direction or the facing direction. cu fly Am 05.11.2013 00:16, schrieb Tod Fitch: A fifth method might be to use forward and backward tags on the node where the sign is tagged much like one of the suggested methods for tagging traffic signals. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traffic_signal#Tag_all_incoming_ways Seems like one uniform way of tagging traffic control signs and signals should be possible and desirable. Tod -- Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse my brevity. Balázs Barcsik balazs.barc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi There! I would like to introduce give_way and stop alerts into navigation tools such as OSMAnd. For this approach a good tagging is needed. So when someone driving and arrives to an intersection then the app would show give way or stop depending on which road he/she is. (or nothing if the road is a priority one) Can you help me define this in a proper way? I think there are several options: 1. extend highway=give_way (and stop) to able to use on ways https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dgive_way 2. define a new tag: priority_road=give_way (stop) link to existing tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Apriority_road 3. define new tag: priority=give_way (stop) link to existing tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:priority 4. define new type - priority: link to my proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:_relation:priority Thanks, Balazs Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
