date:20090818

Lennard schrieb:
 Peter Körner wrote:
 
 It reaches 100% when /Tromelin Island /is set to not-ok.
 
 I got Bahasa Indonesia at 229/230 with 2 countries (Tromelin, Turkey) as 
 not ok.
 

This happened because some countries were degraded to states, so they 
don't show up in the list but are still counted as ok. I'll fix ths as 
soon as i got the time for it :)

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Local Chapters Meeting Minutes WAS Re: Status of the Local Chapter working group

--- On Tue, 18/8/09, Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com wrote:

 Would a 'local chapters' email list not be a
 great way to include people from all around the world on
 different time zones for to include those for whom English
 is a second language? A combination of email list and wiki
 allow people to work at a time of there convenience, gives
 people time to read and write at their own speed (using
 translation tools if necessary) and there is a full history
 of the discussion.

 I suggest that conference calls and IRC are only
 used for those issues where email is not working or getting
 to an resolution on a difficult subject.

+1

The talk-au list is waiting on the outcome of these discussions/decisions 
before we can do anything about setting up something locally.


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Local Chapters Meeting Minutes WAS Re: Status of the Local Chapter working group

2009-08-18 Thread Vincent MEURISSE

On Tuesday 18 August 2009 07:40:15 am John Smith wrote:

 There seems to be more questions posed than answers in the minutes...
Unfortunately with only 3 people in the conference it was not easy to take 
decisions.

  The next meeting is proposed for the 24th August
  at 18.00 - 19:30 BST.  I know this is not great for a lot
  of people who are in non-BST friendly time zones, so if you
  can't make it but would like to, please add your name to
  the wiki so we can have a second call at a better
  time.
 I did, but it didn't seem to make a difference, also there is at least one
 other person that would like to have been in the conference but wasn't an
 insomniac last night either.
Sadly for you, the earth is round and it's simply impossible to have a time 
which allow anyone to join. That's why we talked to have a second conference 
at a different time to allow other people to join.

-- 
Vincent MEURISSE

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM status POIs?

2009-08-18 Thread Mitja Kleider

Someoneelse wrote:
 Apollinaris Schoell wrote:
  there is something better already
  http://openstreetbugs.schokokeks.org/

 Is there a way of getting data out of that easily?  If there is it would
 make sense to be able to convert bugs within an area to e.g. Garmin
 waypoints.

Use the OpenStreetBugs GPX export and then follow the steps described in the 
wiki:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetBugs/GarminPOI

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Re: [OSM-talk] server not rendering fully

2009-08-18 Thread Lennard

Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:

 I am setting up an India specific server with mod_tile and mapnik. I finally 
 got 
 the beast to work, but at higher zoom levels it is not rendering completely. 
 Apparently it is giving up instead of generating the tiles fully. Obviously 
 there is some setting I have to make in apache config to force it to produce 
 the full tiles regardless of how long it takes. I have disable cache and also 
 lengthened the timeouts. Any one has a clue as what can be done to force it 
 to 
 render the tiles properly? The server is here:

- Update your osm2pgsql to the current version (SVN version 0.66-17102)
- Use the default.style from that newest osm2pgsql (SVN)
- If you didn't already, pick up the newest osm.xml from SVN
- Reimport your data into postgis
- Update your mapnik to be at least 0.6.0 (current: 0.6.1)
- Recompile mod_tile to synch it with the new mapnik
- Clear your cache, restart apache
- Try again

To all that interests this: don't rely on tools included by your linux 
distribution to be up to date.

-- 
Lennard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

2009-08-18 Thread Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)

here's my thoughts.

If object is no longer present we need some sort of ghost tagging, and the
ghost tag take precedent when rendering. This means that the data that was
present is still available, its useful data after all. Ideally there would
be a start_date and end_date tag also that defines the period when the
object was present.

Now for rendering we need an engine/style sheet that respects these tags.
Burning Man 08 doesn't require many tiles, so it's something Y! can probably
render and hard code? Quick and dirty maybe and wouldn't scale, but it would
be a start.  

Cheers  


-Original Message-
From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-
boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Mikel Maron
Sent: 17 August 2009 10:01 PM
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

Hi

I'm again working this year on mapping for the Burning Man arts festival,
coming up in two weeks.
This makes urgent a growing theme in OSM, with several presentations at
this year's SOTM .. how to handle historic data.

Here's the current map of Burning Man for 2009. I haven't added Camp
locations yet, will come soon.
http://playaevents.burningman.com/brc/2009/map/

That map data hasn't been added to OSM.org yet, because the prior year's
map is still there, and still being used. For example, Flickr...
http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/08/flickr-burning-man-open-street-map.html

Why is 2008 historic map data now? Well each year, the location of the
festival moves, to minimize impact on the area. Everything is rebuilt,
created again over several weeks, existing as a place for one week, and
then deconstructed over several weeks. However, the impact of Burning Man
is year round, and for years to come; the amount of media generated and
geotagged during the event is enormous. Take a look at the photos in the
Flickr map to understand why.


So I'd like to import 2009 BM into OSM now. But there's a need to retain
the 2008 data. I'm opening the question up... what is the best way to mark
this data as historic, keep it available as needed, but make sure it
doesn't show up in core renderings?

Look forward to some good ideas.

Thanks
Mikel



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Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right

2009-08-18 Thread Morten Kjeldgaard

Jonas Häggqvist wrote:
 Norbert Hoffmann wrote:
 Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

 2009/8/14 Konrad Skeri kon...@skeri.com:
 Are there any progress on the left/right situation on cycleway=lane/track 
 that
 are only on one side of the street?
 yes, there is a solution for cycleway=track. Map it separately and tag
 highway=cycleway. track can be considered deprecated ;-)
 But don't forget to connect the cycleway to the road wherever it is
 possible to change from one to the other.
 
 Which it is at literally every single point in space along most Danish
 cycleways. This seems like a poor plan.

It is indeed a very poor plan. Almost all major streets in danish cities
have biketracks in each side of the street. In profile, the construction
looks like this:

sidewalk
  -
   \bikepath
 -
  |heavy traffic.
   ---

When mapping a crossing of two such streets, you need to make the following
construction:

 .|.
 .|.
 .|.
.o|o
 .|.
--o-
 .|.
.o|o
 .|.
 .|.
 .|.

That's five nodes for a single intersection! You can imagine how many bugs
there are in the maps where mappers have not had the patience to do so!
Mostly, mappers have just forgotten the connecting nodes, which doesn't
matter much for map-drawing, but screws routing up badly. It means that the
map in danish cities has gazillions of intersecting ways validation errors.

Another thing is that you need to place the parallel cycleway about 20
meters from the highway to have it rendered on the map. And mappers have a
hard time constructing a parallel cycleway, they often zigzag along the main
road and it looks terrible.

I know Jonas has some examples on how nice it looks when you use the
cycleway=track on an osmarendered map (mapnik doesn't use the tag). Perhaps
you can post those as an illustration, Jonas?

PS: In fact there's a similar problem with sidewalks. There ought to be a
city_street highway type with sidewalks.

Cheers,
Morten

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Re: [OSM-talk] copyright problem with data copied from a map

2009-08-18 Thread Morten Kjeldgaard

Renaud MICHEL wrote:

 I replied one week ago explaining why he must not do that and asking him to 
 remove all the edits he made based on that map, but had no more answer so 
 far.
 So now I'm thinking about removing those edits myself, but am not sure 
 what's the best way to do so.
 
 I don't know if the changeset can be reverted, as there are many of them, 
 and I also did some edits there (changeset #1997354 #2005715 #2046924 a 
 least) before knowing of the copyright problem.
 
 Any advice?
 I think I'm going to remove all this by hand with JOSM.
 But the ways will still be present in the DB with the history. Can we do 
 something about this?

It is best to continue trying to educate mappers about the problems of
copyright. I know from experience (working with Ubuntu) that it takes a lot
of effort, but eventually you get there. Copyright is complicated, and also
not logical, so sometimes it's better to err on the side of caution.

Educating mappers so they fully understand the free-and-open principles
means that they in turn can teach others, and everyone saves time in the end.

Throwing the book at this fellow is too harsh at this point. You can email
him and politely ask if he wants to put the roads back on the GPS trace, or
you will do it. Convince him to get a GPS and start collecting data. Tell
him it's fun.

Cheers,
Morten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proliferation of path vs. footway

2009-08-18 Thread Hatto von Hatzfeld

Nop wrote:

 Hatto von Hatzfeld schrieb:
  
 Official is new and has only one meaning.
 
From Map features: official is used for ways dedicated to a certain mode
of travel by law. Usually indicated by a traffic sign.
 
 I really do not see where the use of designated has differed from this
 definition.
 
 Which of the 5 definitions of designated do you mean? :-)

*You* talked about 5 different meanings documented in the wiki. I found that
all of them say something like specially designated (typically by a
government) for use by a particular mode (or modes) of transport. You
missed my central point when you skipped this phrase in your answer.
 
 Just read this topic from the beginning and you should understand.

I have read most of this discussion - but instead of reading it twice I
prefer to go out for mapping some cycleways ...

By the way: Just read
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-de/2008-December/031057.html
(and the following discussion) and you should understand what I mean.

Bye,
Hatto



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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

2009-08-18 Thread Joseph Reeves

Ideally there would
be a start_date and end_date tag also that defines the period when the
object was present.

+1

This would make me very happy indeed; have even registered
openpastmap.org in anticipation.

Cheers, Joseph (an archaeologist, of sorts...)



2009/8/18 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com:
 here's my thoughts.

 If object is no longer present we need some sort of ghost tagging, and the
 ghost tag take precedent when rendering. This means that the data that was
 present is still available, its useful data after all. Ideally there would
 be a start_date and end_date tag also that defines the period when the
 object was present.

 Now for rendering we need an engine/style sheet that respects these tags.
 Burning Man 08 doesn't require many tiles, so it's something Y! can probably
 render and hard code? Quick and dirty maybe and wouldn't scale, but it would
 be a start.

 Cheers


-Original Message-
From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-
boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Mikel Maron
Sent: 17 August 2009 10:01 PM
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

Hi

I'm again working this year on mapping for the Burning Man arts festival,
coming up in two weeks.
This makes urgent a growing theme in OSM, with several presentations at
this year's SOTM .. how to handle historic data.

Here's the current map of Burning Man for 2009. I haven't added Camp
locations yet, will come soon.
http://playaevents.burningman.com/brc/2009/map/

That map data hasn't been added to OSM.org yet, because the prior year's
map is still there, and still being used. For example, Flickr...
http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/08/flickr-burning-man-open-street-map.html

Why is 2008 historic map data now? Well each year, the location of the
festival moves, to minimize impact on the area. Everything is rebuilt,
created again over several weeks, existing as a place for one week, and
then deconstructed over several weeks. However, the impact of Burning Man
is year round, and for years to come; the amount of media generated and
geotagged during the event is enormous. Take a look at the photos in the
Flickr map to understand why.


So I'd like to import 2009 BM into OSM now. But there's a need to retain
the 2008 data. I'm opening the question up... what is the best way to mark
this data as historic, keep it available as needed, but make sure it
doesn't show up in core renderings?

Look forward to some good ideas.

Thanks
Mikel



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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

--- On Tue, 18/8/09, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com 
wrote:

 Burning Man 08 doesn't require many tiles, so it's
 something Y! can probably
 render and hard code? Quick and dirty maybe and wouldn't
 scale, but it would
 be a start.  

Also if the burning man event moves each year there wouldn't be any overlap 
with past years, so this is a simple case, but I imagine that wouldn't be the 
average case where people want historical maps.


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

2009-08-18 Thread andrzej zaborowski

2009/8/18 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com:
 here's my thoughts.

 If object is no longer present we need some sort of ghost tagging, and the
 ghost tag take precedent when rendering. This means that the data that was
 present is still available, its useful data after all. Ideally there would
 be a start_date and end_date tag also that defines the period when the
 object was present.

I'd opt for somehow reusing the normal object history already handled
by OSM for keeping the object's real world history.  So when you
delete an object from OSM you could set a kind of deletion tag that
would either inform that the object was a mistake and shouldn't have
been stored in the DB in the first place or contain the end date of
when the object stopped existing.  The objects contained in planet
snapshots and those rendered would always aim to reflect current state
only, but historic data could be retrieved from history (yay).

On the other hand, if adding new objects in the past is made too easy,
keeping track of vandalism and/or spam in historic data will be quite
a feat.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Multilingual Country-List

This is not possible at the moment, as the list is based upon the list 
of existing wikipedias [1]. Which language do you want to add? Send me 
the name, the code, and the link to an wiki article and i'll think about 
how to add it.

Peter

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:SiteMatrix

Aleksandr Dezhin schrieb:
 Hi!
 
 How to make a new country node appeared on the list 
 http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ ?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

Ideally there would
be a start_date and end_date tag also that defines the period when the
object was present.

 +1


So, I think that the question is related to whether you want something in
the current dataset to represent the things that were 'here' at a previous
time or have a way of entering 'new' historical data.

Taking the burning man festival example - could you add an area tagged
with snapshot date (rather than tagging individual items), which indicates
that this portion of the map requires the renderer to 'find' historical
OSM data from that date?

This would remove the need to tag a lot individual items, but does not
prevent a scheme where it would be possible to add 'new' historical data
into the OSM data with start/stop dates.

As for rendering, would this area be given a sepia tone? :-)

For someone like flickr I would imagine that they would always want to
render the historic portions, so would likely keep the 'old' snapshots of
OSM data to hand.

Cheers,
Mungewell.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Link for editing via JOSM-remote-control-plugin

2009-08-18 Thread Alexander Menk

Mitja Kleider wrote:
 Alexander Menk wrote:
 can somebody add a link to open JOSM (localhost:8111) to
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/ ?
 
 Just use the JOSM remote bookmarklet, it works fine.
 
 http://blog.gegg.us/2009/07/bookmarklet-to-load-the-current-section-of-a-
 slippy-map-into-josm/

That one is really nice. Thanks!

Alexander


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[OSM-talk] Revert a changeset

2009-08-18 Thread Teemu Koskinen

Could somebody please revert this changeset:  
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2168210

The moving of the nodes across the Atlantic is obviously wrong.

Regards Teemu Koskinen

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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

2009-08-18 Thread Joseph Reeves

I imagined a system whereby the default rendered map page looked much
the same as the current Mapnik example, the only difference being the
addition of a second slide-bar that changed the temporal view. By
default you'd look at the map of the present day, but by pulling the
slide down (or across...) you'd go back in time and features would
disappear / appear accordingly.

The Burning Man example would show the current state of things as they
exist on the ground today, pull the slider back and you'll change to
last years... Likewise for any country / area you'll be able to do the
same.

The technicalities of adding this data to the database could be tricky
- perhaps a similar slider should be added to whatever interfaces
people use (would be an issue for features that no longer exist
cluttering the view), but or stuff that is on the ground today, it
should be possible to just add a start_date tag.

As for old versions of the OSM database, these would be very
interesting for charting the growth of the map and for adding a
historical dimension to a study of OSM, but the historical data should
all be stored in the current database. We should look into adding
chronological data to the data we already have. Adding this to the
database shouldn't be too hard, I can find out when the office
building I'm sat in at the moment was built, for example, but
rendering the temporal element could cause headaches...

More than willing to work on such an endeavour, however...

Cheers, Joseph



2009/8/18  si...@mungewell.org:
Ideally there would
be a start_date and end_date tag also that defines the period when the
object was present.

 +1


 So, I think that the question is related to whether you want something in
 the current dataset to represent the things that were 'here' at a previous
 time or have a way of entering 'new' historical data.

 Taking the burning man festival example - could you add an area tagged
 with snapshot date (rather than tagging individual items), which indicates
 that this portion of the map requires the renderer to 'find' historical
 OSM data from that date?

 This would remove the need to tag a lot individual items, but does not
 prevent a scheme where it would be possible to add 'new' historical data
 into the OSM data with start/stop dates.

 As for rendering, would this area be given a sepia tone? :-)

 For someone like flickr I would imagine that they would always want to
 render the historic portions, so would likely keep the 'old' snapshots of
 OSM data to hand.

 Cheers,
 Mungewell.



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Re: [OSM-talk] copyright problem with data copied from a map

2009-08-18 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar

On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Morten Kjeldgaard m...@bioxray.au.dkwrote:

 It is best to continue trying to educate mappers about the problems of
 copyright. I know from experience (working with Ubuntu) that it takes a lot
 of effort, but eventually you get there. Copyright is complicated, and also
 not logical, so sometimes it's better to err on the side of caution.

 Educating mappers so they fully understand the free-and-open principles
 means that they in turn can teach others, and everyone saves time in the
 end.

 Throwing the book at this fellow is too harsh at this point. You can email
 him and politely ask if he wants to put the roads back on the GPS trace, or
 you will do it. Convince him to get a GPS and start collecting data. Tell
 him it's fun.


+1

Let's not bite the newcomers. Educating them what's proper is the best first
step. We only do drastic measures (like banning) only if the user persists.

As for the existence of copyrighted data in the data history, I think this
should be something that should be discussed (if not already). Wikimedia
projects take the position that copyrighted infringing text that were
reverted is ok even if it remains accessible through a page's history since
there was a good-faith effort to remove the offending text. Maybe OSM can
adopt a similar attitude but then again, Wikimedia is based in the U.S.
while OSM has its servers in the UK so different copyright systems apply.

Eugene
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Re: [OSM-talk] Local Chapters Meeting Minutes WAS Re: Status of the Local Chapter working group

2009-08-18 Thread Nick Black

On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.comwrote:


 On 18 Aug 2009, at 09:17, Nick Black wrote:

 John,
 I said:

  so if you can't make it but would like to, please add your name to the
 wiki so we can have a second call at a better time.

 No-one is trying to exclude you - especially not the people who are trying
 set up local groups and make OSM and the OSM-F more inclusive :-)  If there
 are people who want to take the call at a Australia/Asia/New Zealand
 friendly time, I've said that I'll go out of my way to make it and I'm sure
 some of the other Local Chapters volunteers will as well.

 Please add your details to the wiki page, suggest some friendly times and
 we'll set up a call.  Alternatively, organize the call yourself at any time
 you want and give you feedback to the Local Chapters group
 lo...@osmfoundation.org.


 Would a 'local chapters' email list not be a great way to include people
 from all around the world on different time zones for to include those for
 whom English is a second language? A combination of email list and wiki
 allow people to work at a time of there convenience, gives people time to
 read and write at their own speed (using translation tools if necessary) and
 there is a full history of the discussion.


Sounds good.

Mike - could you do the honours and set up a local chapters mailing list
please?





 I suggest that conference calls and IRC are only used for those issues
 where email is not working or getting to an resolution on a difficult
 subject.

 Regards,



 Peter


 --
 Nick


 On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 6:40 AM, John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.comwrote:

 --- On Tue, 18/8/09, Nick Black nickbla...@gmail.com wrote:

  Chapters meetings.  You can find minutes here [1] along
  with information about the next meeting.

 There seems to be more questions posed than answers in the minutes...

  The next meeting is proposed for the 24th August
  at 18.00 - 19:30 BST.  I know this is not great for a lot
  of people who are in non-BST friendly time zones, so if you
  can't make it but would like to, please add your name to
  the wiki so we can have a second call at a better
  time.

 I did, but it didn't seem to make a difference, also there is at least one
 other person that would like to have been in the conference but wasn't an
 insomniac last night either.

  One of the goals of the meeting next week will
  be to set a timetable for getting local chapters set up,
  which will be largely dependent on how much we all agree /
  disagree in the call.  Until then, please read over the
  Local Chapters wiki page and add as many comments or ideas
  as possible, so we can discuss next week.

 It's a bit exclusionary to state that and then already acknowledge that
 people can't make it due to time of day.






 --
 --
 Nick Black
 twitter.com/nick_b
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-- 
-- 
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twitter.com/nick_b
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Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right

2009-08-18 Thread Konrad Skeri

tisdagen den 18 augusti 2009 13.45.24 skrev  talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org:
  Are there any progress on the left/right situation on
  cycleway=lane/track that are only on one side of the street?
 
  yes, there is a solution for cycleway=track. Map it separately and tag
  highway=cycleway. track can be considered deprecated ;-)
 
  But don't forget to connect the cycleway to the road wherever it is
  possible to change from one to the other.
 
  Which it is at literally every single point in space along most Danish
  cycleways. This seems like a poor plan.

 It is indeed a very poor plan. Almost all major streets in danish cities
 have biketracks in each side of the street. In profile, the construction
 looks like this:

 sidewalk
   -
\bikepath
  -
   |heavy traffic.
---


By using the proposed segmented_tag relation [1] (I'd prefer it to be just 
called segmented) you could use cycleway:left and cycleway:right on the 
segment since the relation doesn't rotate if the way is rotated.

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Segmented_Tag

I also have an idea of having use for cycleway=track. A cycleway=lane is a 
lane - the bicycle area is separated from heavy traffic only by a painted line. 
A cycleway=track is still on the same carriageway, but separated from the 
heavy traffic by curbstones, height difference, or a small fence etc. (The 
Danish 
example would be a cycleway=track if I understand it.) And finally, on a 
highway=cycleway the carriageway for bicycles and heavy traffic is separated.

Konrad

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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

2009-08-18 Thread Joseph Reeves

I'll happily donate the openpastmap.org domain towards an attempt at
this. Will *possibly* be able to get a VM or two, plus some bandwidth,
through my employer, if we ask very nicely... ;-)

Cheers, Joseph



2009/8/18 John McKerrell j...@mckerrell.net:
 I also believe that historic data should be stored in the database. I tend
 to think that it should just go in the end_date  start_date fields and
 someone simply needs to modify osmosis or whatever is used to feed .osm
 data into postgres these days so that it filters out anything that doesn't
 fit the current date. I've heard various people say they basically want
 something like this since SOTM so I think people should just go ahead and do
 it. Make the action happen by default in osmosis (and/or other tools) and
 people will soon fix any broken tags. I suppose the issue then is when you
 want something to appear even though it's not really there currently, I
 think that would be best done with another tag e.g.
 not_a_valid_date_but_please_render_anyway_please=yes (but with a sensible
 name) Perhaps things labelled with that would have opacity 50% by default.

 John

 On 18 Aug 2009, at 15:39, Joseph Reeves wrote:

 I imagined a system whereby the default rendered map page looked much
 the same as the current Mapnik example, the only difference being the
 addition of a second slide-bar that changed the temporal view. By
 default you'd look at the map of the present day, but by pulling the
 slide down (or across...) you'd go back in time and features would
 disappear / appear accordingly.

 The Burning Man example would show the current state of things as they
 exist on the ground today, pull the slider back and you'll change to
 last years... Likewise for any country / area you'll be able to do the
 same.

 The technicalities of adding this data to the database could be tricky
 - perhaps a similar slider should be added to whatever interfaces
 people use (would be an issue for features that no longer exist
 cluttering the view), but or stuff that is on the ground today, it
 should be possible to just add a start_date tag.

 As for old versions of the OSM database, these would be very
 interesting for charting the growth of the map and for adding a
 historical dimension to a study of OSM, but the historical data should
 all be stored in the current database. We should look into adding
 chronological data to the data we already have. Adding this to the
 database shouldn't be too hard, I can find out when the office
 building I'm sat in at the moment was built, for example, but
 rendering the temporal element could cause headaches...

 More than willing to work on such an endeavour, however...

 Cheers, Joseph



 2009/8/18  si...@mungewell.org:

 Ideally there would
 be a start_date and end_date tag also that defines the period when the
 object was present.

 +1


 So, I think that the question is related to whether you want something in
 the current dataset to represent the things that were 'here' at a
 previous
 time or have a way of entering 'new' historical data.

 Taking the burning man festival example - could you add an area tagged
 with snapshot date (rather than tagging individual items), which
 indicates
 that this portion of the map requires the renderer to 'find' historical
 OSM data from that date?

 This would remove the need to tag a lot individual items, but does not
 prevent a scheme where it would be possible to add 'new' historical data
 into the OSM data with start/stop dates.

 As for rendering, would this area be given a sepia tone? :-)

 For someone like flickr I would imagine that they would always want to
 render the historic portions, so would likely keep the 'old' snapshots of
 OSM data to hand.

 Cheers,
 Mungewell.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Video inputs to OpenStreetView

2009-08-18 Thread Erik Johansson

On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Mike N.nice...@att.net wrote:
 From: Elena of Valhalla elena.valha...@gmail.com

 On Mon, 17 Aug 2009, John Smith wrote:
 Is 640x480 good enough?
 ;) ofcourse we want 1080p ;)

 is 640x480 good enough e.g to read street names and other signs?

 http://home.att.net/~niceman/VidCap1.jpg

   I took that yesterday from a helmet cam 1280 X 720.   Generally I cannot
 read street signs across the street.   This one is partially blurred by
 motion.


Have you guys tried to take photos of signs with street names? You
need a steady hand, and you aren't going to get a better results by
using an video from a bike mounted cam.

Though the video is very useful for other things, micro mapping.

/Emj

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Re: [OSM-talk] Video inputs to OpenStreetView

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Erik Johansson schreef:
 Have you guys tried to take photos of signs with street names? 

We a lot of photos of that :)


Stefan
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=SpEp
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [OSM-talk] Video inputs to OpenStreetView

From the Firewire camera link...
--
A last thing you might consider: CMOS sensors (and some CCD but it is less
efficient) have selectable 'regions of interrest' (ROI). This can increase
the framerate dramatically with high-res cameras, or provide software
pan/tilt by only sending an rectangular image region selected by the user.
This is for instance very nice for high-res, high-speed object tracking.
--

If you got really fancy you could have a split optics into a lowish res
camera pair with a high res camera, so that regions of interest could be
automatically tracked...

Simon.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Video inputs to OpenStreetView


 Check also the ContourHD camera :) We are also experimenting with that.

Looks pretty sweet shame it doesn't have an external MIC input for
recording (FSK'ed) telemetery data such as speed/lat/log/ele/etc.

If they were really smart they would put a NMEA input port and have this
stored as additional data within the MPEG stream. That would 'sell it' to
a lot of people!!

Simon.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - miniature railway

2009-08-18 Thread Peter Childs

2009/8/16 John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com:
 --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:
 I'd recommend synchronising this with wikipedia
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_railway

 A lot of work has been done there between the various types
 of model/miniature
 railway, and that page has a fairly comprehensive list of
 'ridable' miniature
 railways. Separate form narrow gauge which tend to be 'full
 size'

 Some of those border on light rail or narrow gauge, looking at some of the 
 photos it looks like regular railway track.

 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Bure_Valley_Railway_DSC00533.jpg

 Compared to something like this:

 http://scrms.org.au/files/IMGP5229.JPG



Looking at this (and I know of two Miniture Railways one is 9
(Strood, Gillingham, Kent, Uk) and the other 3.5/5.5 (Mote Park,
Maidstone, Kent, Uk)

Tagging Railway=miniture makes sence (in both cases) but they are
quite different animals.

I think we should tag the Gauge (Possibly in all cases) and assume
Standard Railway Gauge if not tagged.

I think a Gauge=width (in mm I guess) is worth adding.

Peter.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - miniature railway

2009-08-18 Thread Peter Miller


On 18 Aug 2009, at 17:47, Peter Childs wrote:

 2009/8/16 John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com:
 --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:
 I'd recommend synchronising this with wikipedia
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_railway

 A lot of work has been done there between the various types
 of model/miniature
 railway, and that page has a fairly comprehensive list of
 'ridable' miniature
 railways. Separate form narrow gauge which tend to be 'full
 size'

 Some of those border on light rail or narrow gauge, looking at some  
 of the photos it looks like regular railway track.

 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Bure_Valley_Railway_DSC00533.jpg

 Compared to something like this:

 http://scrms.org.au/files/IMGP5229.JPG



 Looking at this (and I know of two Miniture Railways one is 9
 (Strood, Gillingham, Kent, Uk) and the other 3.5/5.5 (Mote Park,
 Maidstone, Kent, Uk)

 Tagging Railway=miniture makes sence (in both cases) but they are
 quite different animals.

 I think we should tag the Gauge (Possibly in all cases) and assume
 Standard Railway Gauge if not tagged.

 I think a Gauge=width (in mm I guess) is worth adding.


Do check out the  recent comments on the railways wiki page re gauge
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Railways


Regards,



Peter




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Re: [OSM-talk] copyright problem with data copied from a map

2009-08-18 Thread Renaud MICHEL

Hello
Le mardi 18 août 2009 à 13:55, Morten Kjeldgaard a écrit :
 Educating mappers so they fully understand the free-and-open principles
 means that they in turn can teach others, and everyone saves time in the
 end.

 Throwing the book at this fellow is too harsh at this point. You can
 email him and politely ask if he wants to put the roads back on the GPS
 trace, or you will do it. Convince him to get a GPS and start collecting
 data. Tell him it's fun.

That's what I did.
I first sent him a message telling him that he was doing wrong edits. He 
answered me once and told me he was actually copying a scanned map.
So I answered back explaining why he should not do that, that was eight days 
ago and to this day I've had no more answers.
I've sent him another message two days ago telling him that his edits might 
be removed due to copyright problem if he did not clarify the situation.

As adviced by Andy, I've sent a mail to the osmfoundation explaining the 
situation.

-- 
Renaud Michel


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Re: [OSM-talk] Video inputs to OpenStreetView

 From: Elena of Valhalla elena.valha...@gmail.com

   I took that yesterday from a helmet cam 1280 X 720.   Generally I
 cannot
 read street signs across the street.   This one is partially blurred by
 motion.


Just a thought on this... do you know which frame of the GOP this is from.
I frames would be the clearest, followed by P and then B.

The issue of blur may be able be reduced if your camera has a sports or
fast shutter mode.

Simon.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Video inputs to OpenStreetView

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

si...@mungewell.org schreef:
 Using a decent mount (ie. DIY steady cam ideas) and in-built image
 stablization in the camera may help.

Check also the ContourHD camera :) We are also experimenting with that.


Stefan
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6WgAn3HTpfDxprxtq13TxnYdZxhsJW9E
=8B3j
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right

2009-08-18 Thread Jonas Häggqvist

Morten Kjeldgaard wrote:
 I know Jonas has some examples on how nice it looks when you use the
 cycleway=track on an osmarendered map (mapnik doesn't use the tag). Perhaps
 you can post those as an illustration, Jonas?

For example here: http://osm.org/go/0H8UF1OW?layers=0B00FTF

I do somewhat understand the idea that you want to map everything
completely accurately, and hence want to map the cycleway as a separete
way, but the resulting is appalling at anything but z18 or above. Not to
mention the routing problems.

Ie. on this map: http://osm.org/go/0h8u...@b-?layers=0b00ftf you can
easily go from the cycleway on the right to any of the evenly numbered
houses on the left, but routing would lead you to the nearest intersection
to do a 3-point-turn and wait for up to 3 red lights in the same intersection.

-- 
Jonas Häggqvist
rasher(at)rasher(dot)dk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Video inputs to OpenStreetView

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

si...@mungewell.org schreef:
 Check also the ContourHD camera :) We are also experimenting with that.
 
 Looks pretty sweet shame it doesn't have an external MIC input for
 recording (FSK'ed) telemetery data such as speed/lat/log/ele/etc.
 
 If they were really smart they would put a NMEA input port and have this
 stored as additional data within the MPEG stream. That would 'sell it' to
 a lot of people!!

You know that the company that made Amarillo trip trackers actually
added features that were proposed by us. We just have to find the guys
in Asia that makes these stuff :)


Stefan
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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wYEAnRObDRda2JzvilwYbu+PNjejrXGZ
=KF9F
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [OSM-talk] Video inputs to OpenStreetView

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

si...@mungewell.org schreef:
From the Firewire camera link...
 --
 A last thing you might consider: CMOS sensors (and some CCD but it is less
 efficient) have selectable 'regions of interrest' (ROI). This can increase
 the framerate dramatically with high-res cameras, or provide software
 pan/tilt by only sending an rectangular image region selected by the user.
 This is for instance very nice for high-res, high-speed object tracking.
 --
 
 If you got really fancy you could have a split optics into a lowish res
 camera pair with a high res camera, so that regions of interest could be
 automatically tracked...

The point with CMOS camera's is that they usually have electronic
rolling shutters that gets a really /bad/ result when moving the camera.


Stefan
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEAREKAAYFAkqK3tgACgkQYH1+F2Rqwn3yuACeONEEWUutHvvxOUPzxLjlLk9e
qQkAoIxkMIDLN3bYDUtDyqrdZf3pZ0+W
=JupM
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [OSM-talk] Video inputs to OpenStreetView

2009-08-18 Thread Mike N.


 Just a thought on this... do you know which frame of the GOP this is from.
 I frames would be the clearest, followed by P and then B.

 The issue of blur may be able be reduced if your camera has a sports or
 fast shutter mode.

  I played with the jog mode, but could not find a clearer view in a nearby 
frame.

  This is the Contour HD - fantastic for general sports and action 
recording, but not quite a dream cam for OSM surveys.   It has a sports mode 
for 60 FPS, but that will also reduce the field of view from 135 degrees to 
90 degrees. 


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Spam] Revert a changeset

2009-08-18 Thread andrzej zaborowski

2009/8/18 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:
 On 18 Aug 2009, at 14:57, Teemu Koskinen wrote:
 Could somebody please revert this changeset:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2168210

 The moving of the nodes across the Atlantic is obviously wrong.

 Do check out this page for guidance and the email address for requests
 to the data working group.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism

 Note that I have been working on this page today and have added a
 section for 'speedy response' in cases where a failure to respond
 within hours could lead to highly visible damage to the rendered maps
 or changes in sensitive areas (for example Washington - particularly
 sensitive given the support and visibility given to OSM by the
 Whitehouse).

Note that most incorrect edits spanning more than a few nodes need a
speedy response because soon people start making edits on top of the
unwanted changeset and reverting it becomes more difficult.

Since I had the setup for this ready, I reverted the changeset 2168210
in my changeset
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2192016
but I had to make a couple of edits before uploading it:

* xybot had helpfully made an edit on top of some of the nodes
removing a spurious tag and causing conflicts.
* I did not revert the creation of node 469327157 (a parking) which
seems genuine.
* Something really strange: node
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/270798013/history is edited
two times inside the same changesets and revert.pl didn't deal
correctly with this.


 Personally I think we need a huge effort to be ready for damaging
 vandalism and much better tools to spot potential errors in a much
 more sophisticated way.

Agreed.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - miniature railway

2009-08-18 Thread Peter Childs

2009/8/18 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:

 On 18 Aug 2009, at 17:47, Peter Childs wrote:

 2009/8/16 John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com:

 --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:

 I'd recommend synchronising this with wikipedia
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_railway

 A lot of work has been done there between the various types
 of model/miniature
 railway, and that page has a fairly comprehensive list of
 'ridable' miniature
 railways. Separate form narrow gauge which tend to be 'full
 size'

 Some of those border on light rail or narrow gauge, looking at some of
 the photos it looks like regular railway track.


 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Bure_Valley_Railway_DSC00533.jpg

 Compared to something like this:

 http://scrms.org.au/files/IMGP5229.JPG



 Looking at this (and I know of two Miniture Railways one is 9
 (Strood, Gillingham, Kent, Uk) and the other 3.5/5.5 (Mote Park,
 Maidstone, Kent, Uk)

 Tagging Railway=miniture makes sence (in both cases) but they are
 quite different animals.

 I think we should tag the Gauge (Possibly in all cases) and assume
 Standard Railway Gauge if not tagged.

 I think a Gauge=width (in mm I guess) is worth adding.


 Do check out the  recent comments on the railways wiki page re gauge
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Railways


Good Point, I've not marked them yet, so I can easily metricate
that 0.2286 and 0.0889/0.1397 however I think tagging the unit
might be better in this case (for the same reason as tagging max
speed). My main problem is the one at mote park has 3 rails rails 1
and 2 are for 3.5inch gauge trains and 1 and 3 are for 5.5 gauge
trains (where rails are numbered 1,2,3)

The one at the Strand is 61 years old and is larger than the standard
documented on the wikipedia.

Are Miniture Railways a British Thing, or is it that they appear most
often in the Uk? (Making us Brits a load of Train enthusiasts)

Peter.

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[OSM-talk] GSoC End: signFinder

2009-08-18 Thread Tijs Zwinkels

Hey All,

As of yesterday, the Google Summer of Code has ended. With some appropriate
pride, I offer you signFinder: http://code.google.com/p/signfinder/ .
As part of the OpenStreetPhoto project, this program detects, segments, and
reads dutch street-signs. For high-quality pictures (and not too old
street-signs), performance is good.

The project is right now trained to read dutch street-signs, but as long as
they have a distinct color, there's no reason why it couldn't read foreign
street-signs. Read this:
http://code.google.com/p/signfinder/wiki/TrainingOtherCountries document on
how to adapt the signFinder to street-signs of other countries.

The end of the summer of code, doesn't mean that I'll stop working on this
project. There are still methods to explore, and performance to improve.
More importantly: I'm looking for practical applications for this software.
I'll be working with Stefan and others on an integration with the
OpenStreetView / OpenStreetPhoto project, but suggestions on an exact use
are welcome, as well as wholly unrelated ideas.

I just saw that a discussion going on about video in OpenStreetView. I
expect to have a video to play with soon, and will report if results are
reasonable.

- Tijs
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Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - miniature railway

2009-08-18 Thread Elena of Valhalla

On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Peter Childspchi...@bcs.org wrote:
 Are Miniture Railways a British Thing, or is it that they appear most
 often in the Uk? (Making us Brits a load of Train enthusiasts)

they used to be quite widespread in italy when i was young, and I know
at least one in my town that is still mostly active.

-- 
Elena ``of Valhalla''

homepage: http://www.trueelena.org
email: elena.valha...@gmail.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] Video inputs to OpenStreetView

2009-08-18 Thread Jack Stringer

DSLR - The Canon 50D has HD video with manual focus. Which would record high
quality shots.

Video - I borrowed a camera from a friend the other day, it was a helmet cam
kit from dogcam it has a small colour camera unit that you put on the helmet
or bike/car. It also has a seperate unit that records the data to a cf card
and will record for 5 hours. Here is the best bit it has a gps reciver port
on it so it can do gps logging at the same time. Irrc the kit is ~£500 but
decent kit, I used it for onbike recordings of Cadwell Park but sadly I
didn't have a gps reciver to plug into it. I did a test with me driving in
the van so I might try and match it to my gps log (zumo550) and see how it
goes.

Jack

On Aug 18, 2009 6:12 PM, Mike N. nice...@att.net wrote:

 Just a thought on this... do you know which frame of the GOP this is from.
 I frames would be th...
 I played with the jog mode, but could not find a clearer view in a nearby
frame.

 This is the Contour HD - fantastic for general sports and action
recording, but not quite a dream cam for OSM surveys.   It has a sports mode
for 60 FPS, but that will also reduce the field of view from 135 degrees to
90 degrees.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

2009-08-18 Thread Jack Stringer

I was thinking of mapping some of the festival sites around here as we have
the Glastonbury festival and if iphone and g1 users could navagate around
all the food places and stages it would be a grate help to them.

On Aug 18, 2009 4:44 PM, Joseph Reeves iknowjos...@gmail.com wrote:

I'll happily donate the openpastmap.org domain towards an attempt at
this. Will *possibly* be able to get a VM or two, plus some bandwidth,
through my employer, if we ask very nicely... ;-)

Cheers, Joseph



2009/8/18 John McKerrell j...@mckerrell.net:
 I also believe that historic data should be stored in the database. I tend
 to think that it should just go in the end_date  start_date fields and
 someone simply needs to modify osmosis or whatever is used to feed .osm
 data into postgres these days so that it filters out anything that doesn't
 fit the current date. I've heard various people say they basically want
 something like this since SOTM so I think people should just go ahead and
do
 it. Make the action happen by default in osmosis (and/or other tools) and
 people will soon fix any broken tags. I suppose the issue then is when you
 want something to appear even though it's not really there currently, I
 think that would be best done with another tag e.g.
 not_a_valid_date_but_please_render_anyway_please=yes (but with a
sensible
 name) Perhaps things labelled with that would have opacity 50% by default.

 John

  On 18 Aug 2009, at 15:39, Joseph Reeves wrote:   I imagined a system
whereby the default rend...
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Spam] Revert a changeset

2009-08-18 Thread Teemu Koskinen

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 20:48:03 +0300, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com  
wrote:

 2009/8/18 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com:
 On 18 Aug 2009, at 14:57, Teemu Koskinen wrote:
 Could somebody please revert this changeset:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2168210

 The moving of the nodes across the Atlantic is obviously wrong.

 Do check out this page for guidance and the email address for requests
 to the data working group.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism


I don't think this case was deliberate vandalism, other edits from the  
user seems to be good.

 Note that I have been working on this page today and have added a
 section for 'speedy response' in cases where a failure to respond
 within hours could lead to highly visible damage to the rendered maps
 or changes in sensitive areas (for example Washington - particularly
 sensitive given the support and visibility given to OSM by the
 Whitehouse).

 Note that most incorrect edits spanning more than a few nodes need a
 speedy response because soon people start making edits on top of the
 unwanted changeset and reverting it becomes more difficult.


What we need, as has been previously discussed on the list, is a similar  
mechanism that wikipedia has that will revert an edit easily, maybe even  
 from the website ui.

 Since I had the setup for this ready, I reverted the changeset 2168210
 in my changeset
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/2192016
 but I had to make a couple of edits before uploading it:

 * xybot had helpfully made an edit on top of some of the nodes
 removing a spurious tag and causing conflicts.
 * I did not revert the creation of node 469327157 (a parking) which
 seems genuine.
 * Something really strange: node
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/270798013/history is edited
 two times inside the same changesets and revert.pl didn't deal
 correctly with this.


There still seems to be some problem, the way  
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39175980 still goes across the  
Atlantic, but it looks different than before.



 Personally I think we need a huge effort to be ready for damaging
 vandalism and much better tools to spot potential errors in a much
 more sophisticated way.

 Agreed.


I spotted this with the Geofabriks OSM Inspector, but that's still a bit  
too slow to update, it would be much better if it updated at least hourly  
or even from the minute diffs.

The revert tools should also be made to look what exactly was modified in  
the changeset. Eg. if a node was moved, but tags were left untouched, and  
after that someone else modified only the tags but didn't move the node,  
reverting the first change should only move the node back to it's original  
position and not change the tags back as those were changed by someone  
else.


Teemu Koskinen

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

Hi

As I guessed the bug with the 100% comes from countries that aren't 
countries anymore. They are removed from the list with the hourly 
update, but if you got your list open while this happens you can still 
mark it as ok. so we got a country that only exists in this language - 
and more than 100% ok :)

I removed those countries and included a fix in the ajax-script that 
handles the mark-ok-request that checks for the existence of this 
country in the list.

Namely they are http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424313867 and 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424317578 which are both 
islands now. By the way i added 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/25342325 (Alderney) which was 
somehow missing.

The other bug is a hard one. As long as I'm not able to reproduce it, i 
can't fix it.

I'm feeling sorry about having these bug in this tool. It was just an 
experiment, hacked together in three or four nights - so no clear 
structure in the programming nor the database. I know I can do better 
(I'm doing every day at work) but this was my first tool on a 
toolserver, my with first tool working with geo-data and my first tool 
using the osm-api, so please perceive it just as an hacky experiment - 
not fully worked-out tool, and thus be gently with me :)

Just had to say that.

Peter

 
 I think there was a bug introduced during resorting of the list or 
 during the transition from
 zh-classic - zh-classical. The list behaves strange. Once I noticed 
 that when i changed a
 country name in one language, the status of the same country name in 
 another language
 changed also. I cannot verify or nail down any bug from remote.
 
 Please see also the image attached which shows a 100.43% progress for 
 translation of the
 Arabic country names.
 http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/?lang=ar
 
 It reaches 100% when /Tromelin Island /is set to not-ok.


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Re: [OSM-talk] GSoC End: signFinder

Whooohoow this is so cool! Looks like a lot of Voodoo to me :)

As I saw from the samples It doesn't work well on blurred images, so it 
won't work with sth. like a helmet or a car camera, would it?

Peter


Tijs Zwinkels schrieb:
 Hey All,
 
 As of yesterday, the Google Summer of Code has ended. With some 
 appropriate pride, I offer you signFinder: 
 http://code.google.com/p/signfinder/ .
 As part of the OpenStreetPhoto project, this program detects, segments, 
 and reads dutch street-signs. For high-quality pictures (and not too old 
 street-signs), performance is good.
 
 The project is right now trained to read dutch street-signs, but as long 
 as they have a distinct color, there's no reason why it couldn't read 
 foreign street-signs. Read this: 
 http://code.google.com/p/signfinder/wiki/TrainingOtherCountries document 
 on how to adapt the signFinder to street-signs of other countries.
 
 The end of the summer of code, doesn't mean that I'll stop working on 
 this project. There are still methods to explore, and performance to 
 improve.
 More importantly: I'm looking for practical applications for this 
 software. I'll be working with Stefan and others on an integration with 
 the OpenStreetView / OpenStreetPhoto project, but suggestions on an 
 exact use are welcome, as well as wholly unrelated ideas.
 
 I just saw that a discussion going on about video in OpenStreetView. I 
 expect to have a video to play with soon, and will report if results are 
 reasonable.
 
 - Tijs


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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

2009-08-18 Thread Mikel Maron

Agreed!

start_date and end_date are best. Suppose for Burning Man, I can just go 
ahead and use these tags, and whatever bad result comes out can be used as 
motivation for the main rendering systems to tweak their processing (ie add an 
osmosis step) to deal with this. Or with updated stylesheets. Whatever works 
best for the renderers.

That may result in overlapping Burning Man maps .. that could be ok for OSM 
itself. For Burning Man, and possibly for Flickr, I've set up another rendering 
system.

-Mikel





From: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com
To: Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com; talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:43:23 AM
Subject: RE: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

here's my thoughts.

If object is no longer present we need some sort of ghost tagging, and the
ghost tag take precedent when rendering. This means that the data that was
present is still available, its useful data after all. Ideally there would
be a start_date and end_date tag also that defines the period when the
object was present.

Now for rendering we need an engine/style sheet that respects these tags.
Burning Man 08 doesn't require many tiles, so it's something Y! can probably
render and hard code? Quick and dirty maybe and wouldn't scale, but it would
be a start.  

Cheers  


-Original Message-
From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-
boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Mikel Maron
Sent: 17 August 2009 10:01 PM
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

Hi

I'm again working this year on mapping for the Burning Man arts festival,
coming up in two weeks.
This makes urgent a growing theme in OSM, with several presentations at
this year's SOTM .. how to handle historic data.

Here's the current map of Burning Man for 2009. I haven't added Camp
locations yet, will come soon.
http://playaevents.burningman.com/brc/2009/map/

That map data hasn't been added to OSM.org yet, because the prior year's
map is still there, and still being used. For example, Flickr...
http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/08/flickr-burning-man-open-street-map.html

Why is 2008 historic map data now? Well each year, the location of the
festival moves, to minimize impact on the area. Everything is rebuilt,
created again over several weeks, existing as a place for one week, and
then deconstructed over several weeks. However, the impact of Burning Man
is year round, and for years to come; the amount of media generated and
geotagged during the event is enormous. Take a look at the photos in the
Flickr map to understand why.


So I'd like to import 2009 BM into OSM now. But there's a need to retain
the 2008 data. I'm opening the question up... what is the best way to mark
this data as historic, keep it available as needed, but make sure it
doesn't show up in core renderings?

Look forward to some good ideas.

Thanks
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Re: [OSM-talk] GSoC End: signFinder

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Peter Körner schreef:
 Whooohoow this is so cool! Looks like a lot of Voodoo to me :)
 
 As I saw from the samples It doesn't work well on blurred images, so it 
 won't work with sth. like a helmet or a car camera, would it?

Camera's are not by default blury, they become blurry if the
shutterspeed is too low ;)


Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk] Local Chapters Meeting Minutes WAS Re: Status of the Local Chapter working group

2009-08-18 Thread Frederik Ramm

Hi,

Peter Miller wrote:
 I suggest that conference calls and IRC are only used for those issues 
 where email is not working or getting to an resolution on a difficult 
 subject.

+1

Telephone calls are too intrusive. Someone might have to pick up their 
child from school at the time you have scheduled the call; someone might 
have a hard time following people in a foreign language over a distorted 
voice link (mind you, the Cloudmade-sponsored telcos are vastly better 
than any intercontinental VOIP stuff I've been participating in, but still).

I can see a role for Telcos where decisions need to be made quickly but 
there's no reason not to give ample time to everybody in the Local 
Chapters issue.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-18 Thread andrzej zaborowski

2009/8/18 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de:
 Namely they are http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424313867 and
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424317578 which are both
 islands now. By the way i added
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/25342325 (Alderney) which was
 somehow missing.

*poke*
(Montenegro is still missing)

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

andrzej zaborowski schrieb:
 2009/8/18 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de:
 Namely they are http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424313867 and
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424317578 which are both
 islands now. By the way i added
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/25342325 (Alderney) which was
 somehow missing.
 
 *poke*
 (Montenegro is still missing)

It seems there is no node for it. Searching if with the Namefinder 
doesn't bring up a node. I'd need a node id to add it to the list.

Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] GSoC End: signFinder

2009-08-18 Thread Aun Johnsen (via Webmail)

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 23:02:07 +0200, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de
wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA512
 
 Peter Körner schreef:
 Whooohoow this is so cool! Looks like a lot of Voodoo to me :)
 
 As I saw from the samples It doesn't work well on blurred images, so it 
 won't work with sth. like a helmet or a car camera, would it?
 
 Camera's are not by default blury, they become blurry if the
 shutterspeed is too low ;)
 
And for a fully automated camera, the shutterspeed is set by light
conditions, i.e. not enough light = blurry pictures

-- 
Brgds
Aun Johnsen
via Webmail

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Maps-l] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List

2009-08-18 Thread Marcin Cieslak

Peter Körner wrote:

 (Montenegro is still missing)
 
 It seems there is no node for it. Searching if with the Namefinder 
 doesn't bring up a node. I'd need a node id to add it to the list.

I think it's 445970763

-- 
   Marcin Cieslak // sa...@saper.info 




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[OSM-talk] Lane turn restrictions

2009-08-18 Thread Steve Hill


I looked on the wiki but couldn't see anything...

Is there any suggested way of marking up turn restrictions for individual 
lanes of a road to enable sat navs to provide lane guidance (e.g. keep 
right, move into the left lane, etc)?

-- 

  - Steve
xmpp:st...@nexusuk.org   sip:st...@nexusuk.org   http://www.nexusuk.org/

  Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence


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Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - miniature railway

--- On Wed, 19/8/09, Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org wrote:
 I think a Gauge=width (in mm I guess) is worth adding.

Why not just use width=* which is already in use for a lot of other things?


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - miniature railway

--- On Wed, 19/8/09, Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org wrote:
 Are Miniture Railways a British Thing, or is it that they
 appear most
 often in the Uk? (Making us Brits a load of Train
 enthusiasts)

There seems to be a number of them around Australia as well, some have a lot of 
track, eg 4km of 5 and 7.25 track at Casino, NSW.

http://www.casinominirail.com/


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

2009-08-18 Thread Stephen Hope

I am hoping in a couple of weeks to map the grounds at a festival that
occurs yearly in the same spot. This is not so much historical data,
as data that's only true for three weeks a year. The rest of the time,
it's just fields, with a few items (some toilets, etc) that stay in
place year round.

Would this come under historical mapping, or some other tagging scheme?

Stephen

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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 11:06 AM, John Smithdelta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Actually time and space is the 4th dimension :)

 People already want editors that can handle 3D, not just 2D so they can map 
 out complex buildings and very complex roads that overlap each other and so 
 forth.

 The editor wouldn't need to specify a time box, but could sort it out locally 
 after it downloads the data, same with 3D data I guess.

Yes, ok then, 4D. And yes, in the short-term I guess the editor could
download data from *all time* - but *eventually* the API will need to
support this kind of bounding box including a time limit, because the
length of the time dimension will grow to infinity into the future. I
won't want to be fetching infinity KB of data.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Stephen Hopeslh...@gmail.com wrote:
 I am hoping in a couple of weeks to map the grounds at a festival that
 occurs yearly in the same spot. This is not so much historical data,
 as data that's only true for three weeks a year. The rest of the time,
 it's just fields, with a few items (some toilets, etc) that stay in
 place year round.

 Would this come under historical mapping, or some other tagging scheme?

Good question. If you treated it as historical mapping, you would
create a duplicate set of nodes/ways/relations for each year, with
appropriate absolute start/end dates (for that year).

Is this satisfactory?

Actually, an alternative is to relax the definition of start_date
and end_date to be not just absolute times, but more flexible as
follows:

Think of a calendar application where you can define a meeting that is
3 to 5 pm on Wednesdays in 2009 - this is not an 'absolute'
description of the time the meeting comes into and out of existence,
but nevertheless is sufficient to describe when the meeting exists.

Is this all we need for OSM, i.e., to be able to answer the question:
given the start_date and end_date of this node/way, does it exist at
this particular time, x?

On another note, I would propose using start_time and end_time rather
than *_date, because time (as a dimension of existence) is really what
we're talking about.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

--- On Wed, 19/8/09, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes, ok then, 4D. And yes, in the short-term I guess the
 editor could
 download data from *all time* - but *eventually* the API
 will need to
 support this kind of bounding box including a time limit,
 because the
 length of the time dimension will grow to infinity into the
 future. I
 won't want to be fetching infinity KB of data.

Most data in historic information is very tiny areas, most of the data will be 
only current information. 


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 11:43 AM, John Smithdelta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Most data in historic information is very tiny areas, most of the data will 
 be only current information.

It seems we have different ideas about the scope of this proposal,
then. I thought the implication was that in the future, if something
that has been mapped ceases to exist, it should not be deleted, but
appended with an end_date tag, and any new features should be added
and appended with a start_date tag.

This would lead to massive amounts of historic information into the
future - i.e. nothing that has been correctly mapped need ever be
deleted.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

--- On Wed, 19/8/09, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:

 This would lead to massive amounts of historic information
 into the
 future - i.e. nothing that has been correctly mapped need
 ever be
 deleted.

Even so, this would be a minority of data, the majority of roads rarely if ever 
change. New roads get added, major highways get upgraded or moved, but 
residential streets stay put, railways usually stay put, rivers don't move very 
fast, coastlines don't move very fast.


  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 12:34 PM, John Smithdelta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:
 --- On Wed, 19/8/09, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:

 This would lead to massive amounts of historic information
 into the
 future - i.e. nothing that has been correctly mapped need
 ever be
 deleted.

 Even so, this would be a minority of data, the majority of roads rarely if 
 ever change. New roads get added, major highways get upgraded or moved, but 
 residential streets stay put, railways usually stay put, rivers don't move 
 very fast, coastlines don't move very fast.

Think POI's, names, landuse, boundaries, development (from natural to
farmland to houses to commercial development).

And think long-term. *Eventually*, by definition, historical data will
indeed be the majority of data - time is infinite, Earth is finite.

But anyway, can we move on? I'm simply saying we should look at this
as what it really is - extending OSM to the time dimension.

If you don't think the API will need to be extended, fine. I think it
would be nice :)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Historic Mapping needs help Now!

On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Roy Wallacewaldo000...@gmail.com wrote:

 But anyway, can we move on? I'm simply saying we should look at this
 as what it really is - extending OSM to the time dimension.

Apologies everyone, I hadn't noticed the following existing proposal.
Please have a look and leave comments there:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/4th_Dimension

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] webpagina

2009-08-18 Thread Lambertus

Lambertus wrote:
   Maar goed, het probleem van de beperkte GPX export is opgelost. Je 
kunt nu
 virtueel oneindig lange routes exporteren.
 
Oeps, dan moet je natuurlijk de productie versie wel synchroniseren met 
SVN... Ok, nu dan echt.

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[OSM-talk-nl] OSM Foundation Board 2009 verkiezing t/m a.s. donderdag

2009-08-18 Thread Floris Looijesteijn

Tot en met donderdag kan er nog gestemd worden voor de nieuwe Foundation
Board dus als je OSMF lid bent kijk dan nog even op:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/AGM09/Election_to_Board

Stemmen kan persoonlijk tijdens Annual General Meeting of via de mail.

Groet,
Floris


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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Google Summer of Code 2009 - signFinder.

2009-08-18 Thread Tijs Zwinkels

Hallo Iedereen,

vanaf gisteren is de Google Summer of Code officieel afgelopen. Via deze weg
wil ik iedereen bedanken voor de reacties, ideeen, en natuurlijk de
felbegeerde straatnaamborden! ;)

Er is nu een product dat straatnaamborden detecteert, segmenteert, en leest.
Met name in nieuwbouwwijken met nette schone blauwe borden is de performance
hoog (+90% op mijn eigen testset, maar naar maanden ontwikkeling is dit een
cijfer met overfitting).

Bovendien is de code nu opgeschoond zodat hij ook voor personen die niet
Tijs heten te begrijpen moet zijn, en is er een hoeveelheid documentatie.
Alles is te vinden op Google Code: http://code.google.com/p/signfinder/ .
Meer weten over het proces / geinteresseerd in pretty pictures? - Bekijk
vooral ook mijn blog-posts: http://blog.opengeo.nl/index.php/tag/signfinder/

Dit betekend niet dat ik niet meer aan dit project ga werken. Er zijn nog
interessante andere methoden om te proberen en de performance te verbeteren,
en binnenkort gaan Stefan en ik werken aan een website + service, waarmee
anderen makkelijk deze 'signReading' functionaliteit in eigen producten
kunnen gebruiken.

Daarnaast ben ik natuurlijk geïnteresseerd in praktische toepassingen voor
dit product. Heb je goede ideeen? Ergens een half (of heel) project liggen
dat kan profiteren van het lezen van straatnaamborden? - Laat het me weten,
en ik zal graag samenwerken om deze functionaliteit nuttig in te zetten.

Groeten,
Tijs
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[OSM-talk-nl] Taggen voor Topologie mag dat?

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hoi,


Momenteel ben ik alle haltes van de metro aan het splitten. Ik hoop
daarmee uiteindelijk de metro routes 'netjes' en volledig in relaties te
krijgen. En voorlopig de afstanden te kunnen meten.

Momenteel waren alle routes getekend (onderandere door Paulbe) als
continue lijnen (er mooi) maar we kunnen er topologisch geen gebruik van
maken. Ik hoop dat door deze actie zich niemand op z'n tegen getrapt
voelt, het heeft een goed doel.


Stefan
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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Taggen voor Topologie mag dat?

2009-08-18 Thread Frank Steggink

Stefan de Konink wrote:
 Momenteel ben ik alle haltes van de metro aan het splitten. Ik hoop
 daarmee uiteindelijk de metro routes 'netjes' en volledig in relaties te
 krijgen. En voorlopig de afstanden te kunnen meten.

 Momenteel waren alle routes getekend (onderandere door Paulbe) als
 continue lijnen (er mooi) maar we kunnen er topologisch geen gebruik van
 maken. Ik hoop dat door deze actie zich niemand op z'n tegen getrapt
 voelt, het heeft een goed doel.
   
Aangezien het niet mogelijk is om op een andere manier de relaties aan 
de metroroutes te koppelen, lijkt het me dat het wel mag. Iemand heeft 
dat ook voor busroutes in mijn woonplaats gedaan.

Eventueel zou OSM ervoor kunnen kiezen om relaties aan delen van ways 
(tussen twee knooppunten) te koppelen, maar volgens mij haal je je dan 
meer problemen op de hals. Ideaal is het toevoegen van routerelaties in 
ieder geval niet.

Groeten,

Frank



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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Taggen voor Topologie mag dat?

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Frank Steggink schreef:
 Eventueel zou OSM ervoor kunnen kiezen om relaties aan delen van ways 
 (tussen twee knooppunten) te koppelen, maar volgens mij haal je je dan 
 meer problemen op de hals. Ideaal is het toevoegen van routerelaties in 
 ieder geval niet.

;) Ik ben het zo met je eens ;)


Stefan
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[talk-au] Nambour Mapping Party

2009-08-18 Thread Liz

There has been great work here related in Ash Kyd's diary.
I've had a quiet whisper that someone in Sydney wishes a mapping party be 
organised - well you've got a lot to aim for now!
I live about 600km from Sydney so am not available to organise a mapping party 
in Sydney.

But next time I have to visit Wollongong we could have some sort of a Gong 
meetup.

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Re: [talk-au] Nambour Mapping Party

--- On Tue, 18/8/09, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:

 I've had a quiet whisper that someone in Sydney wishes a
 mapping party be 

I should do a write up on the wiki on how I organised the Nambour mapping 
party, it technically would be possible for anyone to organise a mapping party 
anywhere, attending them is a different matter :)

However it really didn't take much effort, you could skip a few things like 
mail outs to other groups, I think it might be better to approach these groups 
about a talk then being invited to a mapping party.

You also don't need to get a banner printed.

All you really need is some quiet space, maybe with internet but most last 
weekend seemed to have internet access via their phones.

You then just need to set up a wiki page with the relevant details, where/when 
etc, mail to this list and possibly adding a social event to the geocaching.com 
site too.

Once the server I'm doing maps on is back up and running I plan to have some 
method for people to add events to the events calendar.

That's about it, to be most effective these events nearly need to be regular, 
that way people will know roughly when an event is and so on.

David Dean is planning to hold these events the third Friday/Saturday of each 
month.


  

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Re: [talk-au] I've been trying to fix the highway shields and came across this....

2009-08-18 Thread BlueMM

John Smith-129 wrote:

--- On Mon, 17/8/09, BlueMM bluemm1975-...@yahoo.com wrote:

But my point was if they *are* consistent (same shield design), why
specify state?

Consistent to what?

Some states have gone to a alphanumeric system, some use the old NH
shields and those with the alphanumeric system have different shields
between states.

http://www.routemarkers.com/Oceania/

That website appears inaccurate. It says the state route marker is no longer
used in Vic, but there is a route with that marker a block away from me
right now. Also, the M1/7 example appears wrong, AFAIK, the one used in VIC
is more like the NSW one, without the outer green border. It has slightly
rounded inner green square an outer white border (also rounded).
I don't think the outer green border is worth showing a different shield,
just make them all the same.

Maybe it's worth creating a Australian rendering page on the wiki where we
can collect all the different route signs. With the addr: specifier, there's
no reason why we can't get the Australian/state specific shields into the
main OSM map (mapnik).

John Smith-129 wrote:

I don't know if any are consistent right around Australia, but I suggest
we
mention drop the state for know national shields.

From what I've seen there is no consistency, even when they change to the
alphanumeric system they still differ in the shields they use :)

Is the tiny differences worth it? I don't think so

John Smith-129 wrote:

I can think of a potentially hundreds of routes which are for eg. C123
and called TownA-TownB Road.
It could be that is far more prevalent that needing the separate ref/name
relations. Just trying to keep it simple, anyone else got ideas/opinions?

I've only been talking about highways, not roads, I haven't considered
what to do about roads, same thing as streets I suppose.

That seems contrary to the new changes to the Australian Tagging Guidelines
regarding M/A/B/C Alphanumeric routes (ie. this proposal). It seems to me to
apply to all road routes. Most of the BC rural roads I know in Victoria are
not highways.
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/I%27ve-been-trying-to-fix-the-highway-shields-and-came-across-this-tp24970890p25021174.html
Sent from the OpenStreetMap - Australian Talk mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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Re: [talk-au] I've been trying to fix the highway shields and came across this....

2009-08-18 Thread Liz

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009, BlueMM wrote:
 That website appears inaccurate. It says the state route marker is no
 longer used in Vic, but there is a route with that marker a block away from
 me right now. Also, the M1/7 example appears wrong, AFAIK, the one used in
 VIC is more like the NSW one, without the outer green border. It has
 slightly rounded inner green square  an outer white border (also rounded).
 I don't think the outer green border is worth showing a different shield,
 just make them all the same.

 Maybe it's worth creating a Australian rendering page on the wiki where we
 can collect all the different route signs. With the addr: specifier,
 there's no reason why we can't get the Australian/state specific shields
 into the main OSM map (mapnik).

http://www.ozroads.com.au/
is a better site, well photodocumented with dates for each photo


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[talk-au] Minor Highways

I couldn't find the email Liz wrote about it, but I've just created a ref 
relation for the Gwydir Highway, as a result I can't see a good reason for 2 
relations in this case.

In the case of the A1 in QLD that's a diff matter as the A1 is more than just 
one highway.

Can anyone think of a good reason for multiple relations on minor highways?


  

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Re: [talk-au] maps.bigtincan.com

The server is currently en route to the data centre and will be back up 
shortly, it took longer than expected for this to happen due to things outside 
our control.


  

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Re: [talk-au] maps.bigtincan.com

Server is now back up and running, and instead of being in a virtual it is now 
on the server itself, quad core xeon with 4G of ram and scsi 10k hdd's, so it 
should be a tad faster :)

Because it was offline for a few days it's still catching up with OSM change 
files and is about 14 or so hours out of date still, but it should be up to 
date within a few hours give or take.


  

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Re: [talk-au] I've been trying to fix the highway shields and came across this....

I'm going to be adding Tourist Route Shields to the map shortly but in the 
process of looking for a graphic I came across this page on wikipedia:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Route_shields_of_Australia

It lists shields for a number of things like Alt National Route, and on one of 
the other wiki pages it uses 'D' routes to mean Detour however these routes 
aren't in the same category as MABC.

Does anyone think this is a good idea?

Use network=D for D classified roads, if they exist.
Use network=detour for NSW classified detour routes
Use network=alt_NR for Alternate NR routes


  

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[talk-au] Bruce Highway... A1 only or A1+M1 ?