Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

There's a variety of ways to meet and talk. At this event about three
thousand people meet every Sunday. As you can see they eat, drink and
talk together [1] all right.

There is also child-care service [2], and genders are represented about
equally [3], age groups too.

By the way, the main event takes place on December 5 - 6, 2014 [4]. The
online registration is open until November 9. It is an international
event with 35000+ participants. There are different age groups, from 6
to 70+ years.

brgds
Oleksiy

[1] http://www.escalade.ch/photos/2014/entrainements/62/3429.jpg
[2] http://www.escalade.ch/photos/2014/entrainements/62/3399.jpg
[3] http://www.escalade.ch/photos/2014/entrainements/59/3249.jpg
  http://www.escalade.ch/photos/2014/entrainements/60/3302.jpg
[4] http://escalade.ch/web/2014/en

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Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)

[marekskleciak]

No one does imports without audit of random samples.
We do it as well.
The percentage of errors checked in tested area corresponds to the average 
content errors 
created by OpenStreetMap mappers.

Of course, this must be checked each time, if we import data.
We should never believe in the quality of whole geodatabase, if we check only 
the part.
 
Best regards,
Marek

Dnia 3 listopada 2014 4:38 Russ Nelson  napisał(a):

> Paweł Marynowski writes:>  > When you make import, people are starting make 
> notes about>  > imprecise data.> > I would note that, for decades, the best 
> way to get correct> information on the Internet has been to post incorrect 
> information. I> don't think that has changed, so yeah, let's import data even 
> if its> quality is not 100%.> > -- > --my blog is at
> http://blog.russnelson.com> Crynwr supports open source software> 521 
> Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815> Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog 
>   > > ___> talk mailing list> 
> talk@openstreetmap.org> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk> 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)

[Russ Nelson]

Paweł Marynowski writes:
 > When you make import, people are starting make notes about
 > imprecise data.

I would note that, for decades, the best way to get correct
information on the Internet has been to post incorrect information. I
don't think that has changed, so yeah, let's import data even if its
quality is not 100%.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

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Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol

[Kate Chapman]

Recently I attended the Google Summer of Code 10 Year Reunion. All the
events there were set-up well for those that wished to drink and those that
didn't. I think the significant things that I noticed that really helped
were the following:

1. Good non-alcoholic options for those that didn't drink, also the events
weren't at a bar. One was at the San Jose Tech Museum and the other was at
a hotel.
2. Different spaces for people. Just meaning for example the Saturday event
night had live music and board games. If the live music was too loud though
there were places to retreat to not in the main ballroom. Of course this
was held at a hotel so there were multiple room options. The board games in
this case were really a nice touch for those drinking and non-drinking
alike that maybe aren't that comfortable making small talk.

Of course this is Google having a big event, so cost wasn't an issue. I do
think there are lower cost ways to do this though. Especially if a
conference is held at a university. In Washington DC when I lived there we
had daytime events on the weekends that were usually a combination of
mapping and editing data. Usually at a coffee shop or at one point outside
at the zoo. Another option is offices, bookstores, coffeeshops,
hackerspaces, community centers, libraries or other places that can be used
for gatherings.

Sometimes I find it funny having moved back from a country were the
majority of the people didn't really drink (Indonesia) to the United
States. There were way better non-alcohlic drinks in Indonesia as you might
suspect. Though there isn't a reason not to have a couple options.

Best,

-Kate

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 7:05 PM, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:

> Richard,
>
> Yes, it's quite significant.
>
> There are many events, eg at SOTM-US where I've felt very
> uncomfortable both due to alcohol and noise.
>
> It's hard to find public places to hold social events that don't serve
> alcohol, though.
>
> While I do drink on occasion (once every 3-4 months), I often feel a
> bit uncomfortable with the alcohol culture of geek events in general.
>
> - Serge
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Moderator statement. Please read before posting

[Hans De Kryger]

Well said Michael, thanks!

Regards,
Hans
On Nov 2, 2014 2:26 AM, "Michael Collinson"  wrote:

>  Rule 1: Have Fun!
>
> The OSM project depends on folks participating because we want to and
> because, measured in our own terms, we have fun. Whoever we are. Whatever
> we do.
>
> Crowdsourcing depends on as many people as possible being involved and
> engaged. For us, that means women and men, professors and school children,
> folks from literally every country in the world, non-native and native
> English speakers.  All are on this list. Repeat: All are on this list.  We
> welcome you.  We hope you will stay and read ... and may be get into
> posting too.  We are not doing a very good job at that, are we?
>
> So, "Steve's better map" thread. Let's end it.  Rational, courteous
> presentation and discussion of visions is of vital importance, particularly
> on this international list. So, if there are positive things you want to
> pick up as specific new threads, please go ahead ... but be guided by my
> advice below.
>
> Lastly, and I know at least one of the principal players has signed up for
> this. A truly great free MOOC course is starting again tomorrow, 3rd
> November.  If you want to be more effective in forming opinion in
> OpenStreetMap to the point that things actually happen, sign up. At
> minimum, focus on watching the first and last videos in the course.  The
> course is much more general than the title suggests.
>
> *Inspiring Leadership through Emotional Intelligence*
> *https://www.coursera.org/course/lead-ei
> * (English with English, Chinese
> (Simplified), Russian, Turkish, Ukrainian subtitles).
>
> Mike
>
> *Mike's personal checklist for dealing with "stormy weather"*
>
> I have evolved this after many years on this list and our occasional
> "storms".  I am aiming this at the active Thinkers within our community
> whose input I respect and encourage:
>
> o Think of your whole audience (above) and how to engage them.  Most of
> your audience will never actually reply to you.  [Although every now and
> again you will get a really nice offlist message. They always make my day.]
>
> o Engage positively, the academic buzz-word is "Positive Attractors" ...
> watch the first course videos.  After all, you want to persuade people that
> You Are Right.  That, whether you like it or not, is done emotionally as
> well as logically.
>
> o When there is a "storm". Post less (or may be not at all), not more.  I
> am a native English-speaker and scan-reader (= I can read very quickly),
> but not even I can keep up with the current thread, so I miss interesting
> and thought-provoking things  ... so what about everyone else?  Wait a day,
> structure what you want to say strategically over two or three well placed
> mailings.  (If you follow the totality of *all* my postings to all lists
> over the last two weeks, you will see I am doing exactly this.  And I will
> win eventually!)
>
> o Separate personalities from their arguments. If you want say You Are
> Wrong, it is perfectly possible to say this without direct personal attack.
> Yep, some people will violate this and upset you, just ignore it.
>
> o Separate people's character from their ideas.  ... Oh, I have already
> said that.  :-)
>
> o Lastly. A positive argument, crisis, storm, whatever, has two phases.
> The first can be unpleasant if we are not all 100% emotionally and socially
> very intelligent, which alas we are not.  "Airing dirty washing" (English
> idiom = talking publicly about things that were previously private).
> Violent disagreements.  Healthy, but highly adversarial debate. And so on.
> It is only positive if there is a second closure phase, that involves calm
> reflection, consensus-seeking, taking other people's views into account ...
> and deciding on a course of action that you may not be 100% happy with, but
> a large number of people are ... And we actually do something!  It really
> annoys how little we consciously move on to the that ultra-important phase
> 2!
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Serge Wroclawski]

Mikel,

Short answer: Not at this time.

Longer answer:

Yes, that's a good idea for sure. It's something I didn't have on the
roadmap, but after just a day of using the feature in real life, I
already want it.

There are a bunch of other features that would be nice to implement
based changeset discussions, some of which gave been discussed on the
thread, and some of which haven't been. But after the GSoC window
ended, Tom decided that we'd push to get the main functionality in
place first, and then we could always add more. I completely agree
with him on this. If we tried to do it all at once, it would just end
up delaying things.

You've already written code for osm.org, so you might even have less
of a ramp-up time to create a patch for this than even I would (I
haven't looked at this code since the summer).

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Mikel Maron]

Fantastic to see Changeset Comments (or discussions: yes, agree a more clear 
label).
 
Question: Is there a way to see a list of all the Changesets I have discussed? 
or have subscribed to?
If not, count this as a suggestion!

Thanks!
-Mikel

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Sunday, November 2, 2014 6:58 PM, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:
 

>
>
>Andy,
>
>This is a good question. I'd hoped to write the blog post about the
>feature before it went live, but it didn't happen. I did end up
>writing it, and in my blog post, I presented several use case
>scenarios for it:
>
>https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2014/11/02/introducing-changeset-discussions/
>
>As for utility vs PMs, I'd argue that a majority of the time when
>communicating to someone about something OSM DB related, this should
>be the preferred method. You can think of this as something akin to
>the Discussion page on a wiki. If you compliment someone on their
>work, make it public. If you have a question, make it public, etc.
>
>I'd say the need for PMs in OSM should be greatly diminished with the
>introduction of this feature.
>
>- Serge
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol

[Serge Wroclawski]

Richard,

Yes, it's quite significant.

There are many events, eg at SOTM-US where I've felt very
uncomfortable both due to alcohol and noise.

It's hard to find public places to hold social events that don't serve
alcohol, though.

While I do drink on occasion (once every 3-4 months), I often feel a
bit uncomfortable with the alcohol culture of geek events in general.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Serge Wroclawski]

Andy,

This is a good question. I'd hoped to write the blog post about the
feature before it went live, but it didn't happen. I did end up
writing it, and in my blog post, I presented several use case
scenarios for it:

https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2014/11/02/introducing-changeset-discussions/

As for utility vs PMs, I'd argue that a majority of the time when
communicating to someone about something OSM DB related, this should
be the preferred method. You can think of this as something akin to
the Discussion page on a wiki. If you compliment someone on their
work, make it public. If you have a question, make it public, etc.

I'd say the need for PMs in OSM should be greatly diminished with the
introduction of this feature.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Dave F.]

On 02/11/2014 11:48, Andy Street wrote:

On Sun, 02 Nov 2014 11:36:38 +0100
Simon Poole  wrote:


A much wanted and needed feature.

I'm not attempting to disparage the hard work of those who contributed
to this feature but it is not immediately apparent to me how this
feature should be used. Perhaps one of those people who needed this
feature could give a brief description of why it is useful and when it
would be appropriate to use this method rather than sending a PM?


Similar to what Andy says, there's nothing wrong with this, but I'm 
failing to understand the benefits over existing PMs:


https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2014/11/02/introducing-changeset-discussions/

This example just mentions "a" cafe in a changeset that could be full of 
cafe amendments. For it to be clear which one is under discussion a 
hyperlink to the node/way still needs to be given which can just as 
easily be supplied in a PM.


As this still a direct message between two users, to truly make it 
'public' how does a third party become aware of the messages? Can I get 
a notification if it falls within 'my area'?


David F.




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[OSM-talk] overpass-api.de: Emergency rollback

[Roland Olbricht]

Dear all,

the Overpass API instance on overpass-api.de will receive in a few hours 
a data rollback to 22nd Oct 2014. This means a shutdown for two to three 
hours. Then it will catch up from 22nd October to recent data.


The other instances on
- http://overpass.osm.rambler.ru/cgi/
- http://api.openstreetmap.fr/oapi/
aren't affected. They will continue to deliver current data.

Recent attic data will not be available for some days. I'm sorry for the 
inconvenience. However, attic data before Oct 22nd should be 
consistently available also during rollback.


Details about what most likely happened:
On saturday morning I've made a software update to version 0.7.51. As 
there was no change in the database format, the change went smoothly and 
all indicators looked fine.


However, I've wrongly configured the dispatcher for areas to also care 
on meta data. Once the areas dispatcher triggered the first update of 
areas, .i.e. a few hours later, it corrupted the meta data, in 
particular the *.idx files.

The processes have run with
dispatcher --osm-base --db-dir=/opt/ssd/v0.7.50/ --attic
dispatcher --areas --db-dir=/opt/ssd/v0.7.50/ --attic
They should have run with
dispatcher --osm-base --db-dir=/opt/ssd/v0.7.50/ --attic
dispatcher --areas --db-dir=/opt/ssd/v0.7.50/

At this point I would like to thank the people that have complained. 
This gives me the impression that a fast and prospectous resuce attempt 
is better than a lengthy investigation without meta data. Given the 
wrong parameter was the cause, future software versions will be 
protected about these kinds of wrong parameters to the possible extent.


I'm sorry for the service disruption.

Best regards,

Roland

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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Richard Weait]

I hope to use changeset discussions to publicly thanks new mappers in
my area as a way to encourage them. We have many communication tools
at our disposal, lists, fora, PM, social media, local meetings.  Such
diversity of channels allows subtleties of application.  :-)  The
potential risks are dilution of messages, and (over-)repetition across
channels.  So we'll want to watch that.

I think changeset discussions might be as instantly-useful as Mikel's
addition of the map of changeset bounding boxes.  To me they both
inspire, "Wow, that is so helpful!"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 02/11/2014, Andy Street  wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Nov 2014 11:36:38 +0100
> Simon Poole  wrote:
>
> I'm not attempting to disparage the hard work of those who contributed
> to this feature but it is not immediately apparent to me how this
> feature should be used. Perhaps one of those people who needed this
> feature could give a brief description of why it is useful and when it
> would be appropriate to use this method rather than sending a PM?

The most immediate use I see is for the original changeset author, to
amend a comment that was empty, lacking or wrong. Maybe at another
contributor's request. I sometimes PM to ask "are you sure about that
changeset ?"; the new feature allows this discussoon to happen in
public where it belongs.

 It might nice to be able to "CC" somebody when commenting, as an easy
to notify the DWG for example. But maybe PMs or MLs are still a better
tool for that ?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Lester Caine]

On 02/11/14 11:48, Andy Street wrote:
>> > A much wanted and needed feature.
> I'm not attempting to disparage the hard work of those who contributed
> to this feature but it is not immediately apparent to me how this
> feature should be used. Perhaps one of those people who needed this
> feature could give a brief description of why it is useful and when it
> would be appropriate to use this method rather than sending a PM?

Personally I find this a missing link in discussion on changes that have
been made to the data. A private message may be appropriate if you do
not want public discussion, but often like the current debate on the
talk-gb list about 'automatic updates', people who were not originally
involved spot problems that they can either add their own fix for, but a
note on the problematic original change may well flag other similar
corrections which private messaging can never initiate.

I would probably go on to propose that grouping a large number of
similar but data wise unrelated changes be flagged as bad practice so
that elements of a change CAN be discussed better via this mechanism.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset dicsussion function (was: Changeset comment function)

[Richard Weait]

Good call on discussion vs. Comment.

Also, I resisted the temptation to add "first" as a discussion for changeset/1.

On Nov 2, 2014 6:38 AM, SomeoneElse  wrote:
>
> On 02/11/2014 10:36, Simon Poole wrote:
> > I would like to personally thank ukasiu, emacsen, woodpeck and TomH for
> > developing and deploying this. A much wanted and needed feature.
> >
> >
>
> Thanks from me too.  I think that it'll be really, really useful. 
> Currently "meta discussions" happen elsewhere (on mailing lists, in IRC 
> via exchange of pastebin messages, probably on Facebook etc. too for 
> some OSM communities) and this is a great opportunity to bring those 
> discussions out into the open.
>
> One thought though - can we call it "Changeset Discussions" here (like 
> it actually is on osm.org)?  "Changeset comments" (the comment that you 
> supply when you save a changeset) are something else instead :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Andy Street]

On Sun, 02 Nov 2014 11:36:38 +0100
Simon Poole  wrote:

> A much wanted and needed feature.

I'm not attempting to disparage the hard work of those who contributed
to this feature but it is not immediately apparent to me how this
feature should be used. Perhaps one of those people who needed this
feature could give a brief description of why it is useful and when it
would be appropriate to use this method rather than sending a PM?

-- 
Regards,

Andy Street

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[OSM-talk] Changeset dicsussion function (was: Changeset comment function)

[SomeoneElse]

On 02/11/2014 10:36, Simon Poole wrote:

I would like to personally thank ukasiu, emacsen, woodpeck and TomH for
developing and deploying this. A much wanted and needed feature.




Thanks from me too.  I think that it'll be really, really useful. 
Currently "meta discussions" happen elsewhere (on mailing lists, in IRC 
via exchange of pastebin messages, probably on Facebook etc. too for 
some OSM communities) and this is a great opportunity to bring those 
discussions out into the open.


One thought though - can we call it "Changeset Discussions" here (like 
it actually is on osm.org)?  "Changeset comments" (the comment that you 
supply when you save a changeset) are something else instead :-)


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Richard Weait]

On Nov 2, 2014 6:29 AM, Vincent Privat  wrote:
>
> Great job! Is there an API to get comments? I didn't find such on the wiki. Also, are anonymous comments allowed?
I had to sign in. Seems like anonymous comments are not allowed.  But let's check the code?  This appears to be the commit. I'm looking for the api stuff. :-) 
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/commit/2f228437324d80cb8a408d27912cc716a36aa3b0
Thanks again everybody!
>
> Le 2 nov. 2014 12:20, "Richard Weait"  a écrit :
>>
>> Wonderful.  Thank you and well done, ukasiu, emacsen, woodpeck and TomH.  Great to have this long anticipated option.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Vincent Privat]

Great job! Is there an API to get comments? I didn't find such on the wiki.
Also, are anonymous comments allowed?
Le 2 nov. 2014 12:20, "Richard Weait"  a écrit :

> Wonderful.  Thank you and well done, ukasiu, emacsen, woodpeck and TomH.
> Great to have this long anticipated option.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Richard Weait]

Wonderful.  Thank you and well done, ukasiu, emacsen, woodpeck and TomH.  Great 
to have this long anticipated option.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Simon Poole]

IIRC from testing you have to subscribe to comments on the changeset to
get notifications. But my memory may be failing.

Simon

Am 02.11.2014 11:47, schrieb James Mast:
> I like!  Do you know if people comment on a changeset you make, will you
> automatically get an e-mail mentioning said comment, or will you be in
> the dark and have to stumble across said comment?
> 
> -James



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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Tom Hughes]

On 02/11/14 10:47, James Mast wrote:


I like!  Do you know if people comment on a changeset you make, will you
automatically get an e-mail mentioning said comment, or will you be in
the dark and have to stumble across said comment?


Yes you will get as email, as will anybody else that has previously 
commented on that changeset.


You can also choose to "subscribe" to the changeset without actually 
leaving a comment, in which case you will get emails.


Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[James Mast]

I like!  Do you know if people comment on a changeset you make, will you 
automatically get an e-mail mentioning said comment, or will you be in the dark 
and have to stumble across said comment?

-James
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[OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Simon Poole]

I would like to personally thank ukasiu, emacsen, woodpeck and TomH for
developing and deploying this. A much wanted and needed feature.

Simon



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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve's better map

[Dave F.]

Ian

My comment was actually pointing out good mapping techniques. We are a 
community of mappers - go out & map. Please, add data to improve the 
quality of the database.


Dave F.

On 02/11/2014 01:56, Ian Dees wrote:
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 9:50 PM, Dave F. > wrote:


On 01/11/2014 22:22, Ian Dees wrote:

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 6:15 PM, Dave F. mailto:dave...@madasafish.com>> wrote:

Like it, but unsure I'd give Round 8 to Steve. Deleting old
data is *good* if replaced with more accurate information.


Once again: this is a discussion, not a competition between Steve
and Simon. There are no rounds to give. Let's stop framing it
that way and move on.


If you don't like it, don't read it. Go out & map.


That's not how a community works. We keep our community forums free of 
childish behavior so that real meaningful discussion can happen.


Telling someone "if you don't like it, don't read it" doesn't solve 
the problem of hostile, childish, and negative behavior on the mailing 
list, it just repels normal people and leaves the negative people 
around to talk amongst themselves. Since we tell our new community 
members to join these mailing lists, I'd rather it be the other way 
around: the negative people should leave the list and go talk amongst 
themselves elsewhere.




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[OSM-talk] Moderator statement. Please read before posting

[Michael Collinson]

Rule 1: Have Fun!

The OSM project depends on folks participating because we want to and 
because, measured in our own terms, we have fun. Whoever we are. 
Whatever we do.


Crowdsourcing depends on as many people as possible being involved and 
engaged. For us, that means women and men, professors and school 
children, folks from literally every country in the world, non-native 
and native English speakers.  All are on this list. Repeat: All are on 
this list.  We welcome you.  We hope you will stay and read ... and may 
be get into posting too.  We are not doing a very good job at that, are we?


So, "Steve's better map" thread. Let's end it.  Rational, courteous 
presentation and discussion of visions is of vital importance, 
particularly on this international list. So, if there are positive 
things you want to pick up as specific new threads, please go ahead ... 
but be guided by my advice below.


Lastly, and I know at least one of the principal players has signed up 
for this. A truly great free MOOC course is starting again tomorrow, 3rd 
November.  If you want to be more effective in forming opinion in 
OpenStreetMap to the point that things actually happen, sign up. At 
minimum, focus on watching the first and last videos in the course.  The 
course is much more general than the title suggests.


*Inspiring Leadership through Emotional Intelligence**
**https://www.coursera.org/course/lead-ei* (English with English, 
Chinese (Simplified), Russian, Turkish, Ukrainian subtitles).


Mike

*Mike's personal checklist for dealing with "stormy weather"*

I have evolved this after many years on this list and our occasional 
"storms".  I am aiming this at the active Thinkers within our community 
whose input I respect and encourage:


o Think of your whole audience (above) and how to engage them.  Most of 
your audience will never actually reply to you.  [Although every now and 
again you will get a really nice offlist message. They always make my day.]


o Engage positively, the academic buzz-word is "Positive Attractors" ... 
watch the first course videos.  After all, you want to persuade people 
that You Are Right.  That, whether you like it or not, is done 
emotionally as well as logically.


o When there is a "storm". Post less (or may be not at all), not more.  
I am a native English-speaker and scan-reader (= I can read very 
quickly), but not even I can keep up with the current thread, so I miss 
interesting and thought-provoking things  ... so what about everyone 
else?  Wait a day, structure what you want to say strategically over two 
or three well placed mailings.  (If you follow the totality of *all* my 
postings to all lists over the last two weeks, you will see I am doing 
exactly this.  And I will win eventually!)


o Separate personalities from their arguments. If you want say You Are 
Wrong, it is perfectly possible to say this without direct personal 
attack. Yep, some people will violate this and upset you, just ignore it.


o Separate people's character from their ideas.  ... Oh, I have already 
said that.  :-)


o Lastly. A positive argument, crisis, storm, whatever, has two phases.  
The first can be unpleasant if we are not all 100% emotionally and 
socially very intelligent, which alas we are not. "Airing dirty washing" 
(English idiom = talking publicly about things that were previously 
private).  Violent disagreements. Healthy, but highly adversarial 
debate. And so on.  It is only positive if there is a second closure 
phase, that involves calm reflection, consensus-seeking, taking other 
people's views into account ... and deciding on a course of action that 
you may not be 100% happy with, but a large number of people are ... And 
we actually do something!  It really annoys how little we consciously 
move on to the that ultra-important phase 2!





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