Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Marc Gemis]

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 10:48 PM Mark Wagner  wrote:

> Distributed storage is one of those things that sounds good, but
> nobody's figured out how to make it actually work well.

I also wonder about privacy and security in a distributed system. Will
the distributed system only contain the blurred images? What about the
original images, will they be spread over the world, to servers ran by
unknown people, organizations, governments? Will that be an
improvement over having them owned by Facebook?

m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Marc Gemis]

> * The CIA World Factbook says there are about 64 000 000 km of roads in
>   the world.
> * Google Street View takes 100 photos per km.
> * A photosphere from my tablet, compressed using WebP at 50% quality
>   takes 2.7 MB.

I doubt the CIA number takes into account paths and tracks.
Mapillary allows you to upload images at different times (dates) and
compare them, so unlike Google you can have 2 photos taken at the same
spot. Unlike Google most Mapillary photos are not spheres.

m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Marc Gemis]

Tomek,

My mother tongue is Dutch. The second language I learned in school was
French. Then English. I can follow discussions in German as well.

But I'm not going to learn Esperanto, Polish, etc. anymore. I'm too
old for that.
I'm also not going to follow links to some sites that I don't know to
get to some poor translation.. So if you refuse to write in English on
this mailing list, you will no longer be able to communicate with me
and probably many others.

regards

m.

On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 12:16 AM Tomek  wrote:
>
> W dniu 20-01-12 o 00:04, stevea pisze:
> >> Se vi parolas Esperanton, kial vi ĝin ne uzas?
> > Because this is an English-language list.
> >
> >> Kial mi devas uzi
> >> elektronikan tradukilon por kompreni vian mesaĝon, kaj vi postulas por
> >> skribi en via gepatra lingvo? Mi ne devigas al aliaj homoj lerni mian
> >> lingvon (la polan). Kiu estas fanatikulo tie ĉi?
> > I speak some Polish, too.  Yet, I don't wish to fight with you.
> >
> > I will continue to use English here, though I will not continue to answer 
> > you when you write to the list in Esperanto (or Polish).  Why?  I repeat 
> > myself (as do others here):  because this is an English-language list.
> >
> > Peace,
> > SteveA
> EO
> Listoj por uzantoj de angla lingvo:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> Tie ĉi estas ĝenerala internacia listo pri OSM-etikedoj.
>
> PL
> Listy dla użytkowników języka angielskiego:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> Tutaj jest ogólna lista odnośnie znaczników OSM.
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Re: [OSM-talk] mapping outside Europe

[Marc Gemis]

+1 to what Mateusz wrote.

What I meant with "write the wiki page you want to see" is: create a
new wiki page "Highways in Panama" or "Highways in South America",
preferable in Spanish and Portuguese and link to that page from one of
the existing pages.
Similar to the Highways in Africa page that I showed you earlier on.
That page did not replace the western-centric page neither.

This is also similar to
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Access_provisions_in_the_United_Kingdom
A page for the British community that explains how to map access for
public footpaths.
The content is not on the (general) highway, path, nor access pages.
It is a dedicated page for a certain geographic region.

So yes, the general page will remain Europe centric, but at least
there will be dedicated pages for other geographic regions. Maybe one
day, the general page will just list all regional variants, one of
them being the European variant.
But please note that the classification of highways is based on the
UK-system and that even European countries had to adapt that to their
local system. But of course, the images are similar for a British
motorway and for a German one.

This page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highways has a number of
links to pages with regional variations for the classification of
highways under the "Classification" section.

So start small, with dedicated pages and do not try to change existing
pages too much. That will cause more resistance.


regards

m.

On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 8:57 AM Mateusz Konieczny
 wrote:
>
> 7 Jan 2020, 20:53 by ma...@anche.no:
>
> On 07/01/2020 14:38, Marc Gemis wrote:
>
> Since OSM is a do-ocracy, do not complain, but write the wiki page you
> want to see
>
>
> that's fine, and I've been doing that for Panama, and for Morocco, but I do 
> not like mapping without having reached a consensus.
>
> for that, we need other mappers to contribute to the discussion, and I never 
> managed to get any far on this in the wiki (actually, not even in the 
> changeset comments).
>
> Is the community using some FB group, Telegram channel or Discord or some 
> even more unusual
> discussion location?
>
> so you say: just revolutionize the overview for the highway tag, without 
> first reaching a consensus?
>
> Obviously no.
>
> replace the Eurocentric pictures with Panama and Morocco pics?
> an edit like this will be reverted after 15 minutes!
>
> Is a new photo differing in content (confusing for Europeans in the similar 
> way as original
> was confusing for people from Panama)? Then both should be present, one in 
> the infobox,
> one in the article text.
>
> Is the new photo usable as illustration in both cases and differs by 
> decoration
> (people are wearing different clothes etc)? Can you link an edit where it was 
> reverted
> (except cases where new non-european image was of a lower quality)?
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] mapping outside Europe

[Marc Gemis]

> a more important issue (I would call it "mapping outside Europe", hence
> the subject) is for me each and every (photo)graphic explanation of the
> tagging values.  take `highway`
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway).  text are fine,
> really, but the associated pictures seem all taken in Europe, or North
> America, they have more chances to confuse the mapper based in Africa or
> South America, than helping them.

Problems such as this are easily solved by creating wiki pages for
certain areas, such as
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa

The Flemish-speaking community created
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:How_to_map_a (inspired by the
German https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:How_to_map_a). We also
have dedicated pages such as
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:Jaagpad to explain typical
Belgian/Flemish situations.

Since OSM is a do-ocracy, do not complain, but write the wiki page you
want to see. As soon as you start a group of pages in a certain
language, you might get more people on board.

regards

m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Marc Gemis]

So isn't the only conclusion that you can make that pre-rendered tiles
fail as soon as one needs to serve a multi-language audience?

Wouldn't the best technical solution be vector tiles (or another
technology) and let the end-user choose in which language the names
are displayed?
Removing the "name" field will not solve the problems on osm.org. The
maintainers of the default style (and the other styles on osm.org)
will no longer be able to use the name field and will have to pick
another one in order to display some label. That choice will never
satisfy all needs.
E.g. a common question on help.openstreetmap.org and the different
fora is to change the labels to language X (typically English,
probably related to the nationality of the visitors).

m.

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 1:50 PM Mario Frasca  wrote:
>
> Hi Tomek, and everybody.
>
> being this an English list, I'll write in English, I'm tempted to use 
> Spanish, or Italian.  my written Latin is poor.
>
> I'm sorry to disappoint you as an Esperanto fan, but I understand Polish 
> better than Esperanto.
>
> Should I "vote" on your proposal?  I consider this the wrong place for 
> holding even the discussion.  according to me, using the English language for 
> naming "South America" in the standard map is bad enough, but I do not think 
> (many) people from South America will tell you that **here**, because people 
> who agree with you will not be reading you here.  If I know the locals good 
> enough, they would want the map to be in Spanish just as they seem to have 
> the impression that the whole world (around them) speaks Spanish.  (I do not 
> know many people from Cayenne, Brazil, nor Suriname.)
>
> I disagree that the tag 'name' should be removed, and about the wikipedia 
> tag, and the fact that it generally points to the english wikipedia version, 
> too bad.  you will not solve this by removing the tag, you may try to educate 
> Latin speaking people to be more assertive, but I think it's a lost cause.
>
> I'm aware of one place in the world where they have three national languages: 
> Morocco, and what happens there is that the map uses the three national 
> languages for all names, and the map looks so clumsy this way, in particular 
> with the Amazigh name included (I have tested some locals on their knowledge 
> of the written language, and I am fairly sure that 95% of Amazigh people 
> can't even read it).  quite regularly, you see people editing the 'name' tag 
> to make it less clumsy, by removing two of the languages (those they don't 
> like, I guess).
>
> so, dear Tomek, I do not know what's the best option, but removing the 'name' 
> and the 'wikipedia' tag doesn't feel like the best one to me.  proposing it 
> here, even less.  my guess is that having a language option on the rendered 
> map would be better than this that you propose.  for some locations, I indeed 
> prefer the openstreetmap.fr map.
>
> as for the replies you are getting, I've noticed a dichotomy in the 
> community: people focusing on the actual point, and people focusing on the 
> form.  seems "cultural", and seems that European toes are less easily stepped 
> upon.  "you may try to educate English speaking people to be less assertive" 
> ;=)
>
> anyhow, cheers, and happy mapping,
>
> MF
>
> (nie piszem w twojm języku … want ik ken het niet, not enough at least.)
>
> On 05/01/2020 20:39, Tomek wrote:
>
> W dniu 20-01-06 o 02:25, stevea pisze:
>
> It's easy to goof things up and we shouldn't.
>
> EO
> Pardonu, mi ne estas provokisto, mi ne kondutas malserioze.
>
> Mi skribas en mia lingvo (pola) en internacia lingvo (Esperanto) kaj iam en 
> via lingvo (angla), kial vi ne estimas min kaj ne parolas en mia lingvo?
>
> Bonvolu koncentriĝu pri solvi la problemon pri nomoj.
>
>
>
> PL
> Przepraszam, nie jestem jakimś prowokatorem, nie wygłupiam się.
> Piszę w moim języku (polskim) w języku międzynarodowym (Esperanto) i czasami 
> w Twoim (angielskim), dlaczego Ty nie piszesz w moim języku?
>
> Proszę skoncentrować się na rozwiązaniu problemu nazw.
>
>
>
> EN
> I'm sorry, I'm not some kind of provocateur, I'm not fooling around.
> I write in my (Polish) language in the international language (Esperanto) and 
> sometimes in your (English), why don't you write in my language?
>
> Please focus on resolving the name problem.
>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] tagtransform for OSM - An effort make tagging and using OSM data easier; bridging different worlds together

[Marc Gemis]

What you describe is a rather trivial case. I agree that using OSM
requires knowledge about all possible tagging methods.

But even when you store all phone numbers as contact:phone in the
database, all data consumers will still need to offer that data when
people ask for phone. Especially in the case where the mapper said
"store phone=..." in the database and later wants to retrieve it. The
mapper does not know that the system translated that into
"contact:phone".

Who will be in charge of deciding what gets transformed into another
tag? Is shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent exactly the same, or
does that represent a real-world difference on how estate agents work
in the world?

Another example is url and contact:url, website, heritage:website. Are
they really the same, or do some people use them for different
purposes and perhaps multiple of them on 1 object.

And what about more complex similar mappings:

- a separate cycleway or cycleway=track on the main road
- a separate footway or sidewalk=...
- postal_code on address point or a postal code boundary
- address information on building or as separate node
- POI as separate node or on the building
- traffic signals tag on the junction or as separate nodes on the incoming ways.
- the whole discussion on landuse=forest,natural=wood,landcover=trees
which are the same for some but not for others.

Those cannot be easily converted from one format to another
I fear that data consumers will always have to cope with multiple
tagging methods.

I feel it is better to properly document those "synonyms" so data
consumers are aware of them and can deal with them as they like. If we
have a bunch of scripts to help them with this process, the better.
But the database should reflect what the mapper wrote, not some
modified version of it.

regards

m.

On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:40 PM Sören Reinecke via talk
 wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> I currently write a specification for tranforming tags in OpenStreetMap to 
> make life of all stakeholders easier. Different tagging schemes have emerged 
> since the existence of OpenStreetMap, same are existing in parallel and a 
> newer ones deprecated old ones. Data customers without knowing the OSM 
> community much get lost, mappers use deprecated tagging schemes and newbies 
> get overhelmed by the bunch of possibilities OSM gives (they do not know 
> exactly how to map). This project aims to help developers and mappers who 
> want to take advantage of/contribute to the OpenStreetMap great database 
> which is by the way a brilliant project. This project can also help to make 
> tagging in OSM more orthogonal and more hassle free.
>
> I saw conflicting interests between OSM community, OSM developers like the iD 
> developers and data customers. A renderer might need data in another way as 
> the community contributes. The community might need another tagging scheme 
> than a renderer. I thought how we can resolve this, how we can get all sites 
> on "one table" and that is the idea I had come up with: A specification and 
> scripts helping to preprocess data for each group. But I hope to achieve in 
> long term that the community comes together with developers, approves the 
> automatic toggleable function "correcting tagging by means of the community" 
> e.g. A mapper is typing in `phone=+33 6156 785847887948950` but the converted 
> form `contact:phone=+33 6156 785847887948950` will appear in database. This 
> would make use of short-hands possible and makes life of tagging easier.
>
> The project bridges different worlds and is therefore a bridge. As bridge 
> this project should not just connect different worlds together and by 
> ensuring peace between those but also support exchange between those to 
> develop a social economy of  "send and receive" This project should support 
> the "come together" of (OSM) developers and mappers.
>
>
> A more readable version can be found here: 
> https://github.com/ValorNaram/transformation-table-osmtags/blob/master/README.md
>  and the principles can be found at 
> https://github.com/ValorNaram/transformation-table-osmtags/blob/master/principles.md
>
> ---
>
> Example 1: They want to have the phone number of a POI. There are some 
> problems with this:
>
> 1. They need to know both contact:phone and phone to get them all.
> 2. They need to support them both.
> 3. They need to remove one in case both keys are mapped on one POI. This 
> really happens, see http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/OI2.
>
> Example 2: They want to know how many POI's have changing tables (general: 
> facilities for changing a nappy of a baby). There are some problems with this 
> too:
>
> 1. They need to know both changing_table and the deprecated diaper to get 
> them all.
> 2. They need to support them both. Difficult because they're highly 
> different tagging schemes.
> 3. They need to remove one in case both keys are mapped on one POI. This 
> really happens, see http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/O

Re: [OSM-talk] mapbox, (Changeset Analyzer), whodidit

[Marc Gemis]

On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 4:47 AM 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk
 wrote:
>
>   What are these for anyway, other than stalking ?,

Quality assurance (QA). It helps more experienced mappers to see where
new people add things.
If they spot mistakes, they should engage in a friendly conversation
via private messages or changeset comments.
Being friendly is not always easy, so sometimes messages can be too rude.
And there are people that simply do not engage in conversations, which
is often understandable, as there are so many people that make a few
edits and disappear forever.
Other people are overly protective of "their" area, and change
everything to the way they want, which is not really desirable.

In general, those tools are used to follow edits in an area, not for
following individuals.

As Warin pointed out, try to start a conversation with the other
mapper, or the local community to find out why he is changing
everything you edit.
If all else fail, you can contact the DWG, they can e.g. block the
other mapper until he reads a certain message.

Good luck (and hope you are not too disappointed in OSM due to the
behaviour of 1 individual).

regards

m

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Re: [OSM-talk] lines, drawing.

[Marc Gemis]

The screenshots you attached in the private mail, are those of the
iD-editor. The wiki page describes the "default" map shown on e.g.
www.openstreetmap.org.


regards

m.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 4:32 PM <80hnhtv4a...@bk.ru> wrote:
>
> The drawing do not match the current drawing on the web edit map.
>
> the colors on the edit map do not match the info page.
>
> the rail platform on the web edit page is gone.
>
> the rail platform on the page is gone.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Rendering-highway_railway_platform_area.png
>
> From: Marc Gemis
> Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 8:59 AM
> To: 80hnhtv4a...@bk.ru
> Cc: osm
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] lines, drawing.
>
> Maybe a stupid question, but what has to be fixed on that page? Can
> you provide a bit more detail?
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 3:47 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk
>  wrote:
> >
> > can someone fix this page ?
> >
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/LinesTab
> > ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] lines, drawing.

[Marc Gemis]

Maybe a stupid question, but what has to be fixed on that page? Can
you provide a bit more detail?


On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 3:47 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk
 wrote:
>
> can someone fix this page ?
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/LinesTab
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Re: [OSM-talk] Isn't it nice to share? 🙂 | Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

[Marc Gemis]

This "self appointed police of OSM" will probably question

- how did those companies receive the data, under which copyright?
- how did they geocode the POIs, using Google's geocoder ? (a big no-no)
- how up-to-date is this data ? Will you reimport POIs that have been
rightfully removed in OSM ?
- how will you avoid duplicates ?

all legitimate question imho.

p.s. people that keep blaming the mailing lists for bad behaviour,
really make me wonder why I keep contributing to OSM (mailing list).
Did you ever wonder that this type of constant nagging might turn off
well-meaning people as much as the people you point at turn off you?

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 9:00 AM Blake Girardot  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 8:00 AM Rory McCann  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Oh yes, there's nothing wrong with Facebook (and Yelp, and TripAdvisor
>> and and) having their own PoI database. But, they _could_ help us,
>> massively, by sharing it. They way they talk about OSM, you'd swear they
>> were already doing all they could to help us.
>>
>> But it's naive to think they ever will. Nothing wrong with that,
>> shareholder value and all that.
>>
>
> Hi Rory,
>
> Respectfully, it is naive to think that even if they did offer their POI 
> databases, the self appointed police of OSM would allow the POIs to be added 
> to OSM.
>
> Truthfully, it is naive to think that any mapping or data that is not 
> contributed just the way the few vocal folks who monopolize these OSM lists 
> like, will be accepted.
>
> There really is no way to win with these folks, offer a lot and they accuse 
> the contributor of trying to take over and/or destroying OSM, offer too 
> little and they accuse the users of taking advantage of OSM.
>
> Best to just do like most folks who are interested in using and contributing 
> to OSM do - unsubscribe from these lists and carry on.
>
> cheers,
> Blake
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> --
> 
> Blake Girardot
> OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
> HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
> skype: jblakegirardot
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Re: [OSM-talk] Ways divided by paint?

[Marc Gemis]

I agree that in this case I would tolerate it, but is it still allowed
to turn from East Mineral avenue to the  North-South, unclassified
highway?
If not, one should add turn restrictions.

regards

m

On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 11:11 PM Tom Pfeifer  wrote:
>
> On 03.07.2019 22:03, Jack Armstrong Dancer--- via talk wrote:
> > I've always had the impression we should not create separate traffic lanes 
> > unless "traffic flows are
> > physically separated by a barrier (e.g., grass, concrete, steel), which 
> > prevents movements between
> > said flows."
>
> Yes, I agree in general. Nearly all cases can be modelled with turn:lanes 
> (and maybe change:lanes).
>
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?changeset=70997250#map=20/39.57354/-104.98496
>
> This case -- and the aerial image is necessary to understand it -- would be 
> one of the few
> exceptions where I would tolerate the current mapping of a separate lane for 
> the left turn.
> Otherwise a navigation engine would not be able to create the appropriate 
> turn instruction at the
> point where the lane forks off. A much more complicated data model would be 
> necessary.
>
> tom
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] mass iD validation arrives in NYC

[Marc Gemis]

I assume that that way (powerline) was downloaded because it also has
nodes in the area you downloaded. JOSM will never complain about
objects that are not downloaded. Powerline ways tend to be long, so
the warning can easily be in another state, that is true.
Furthermore, I thought that it is not allowed to have nodes in a
powerline that do not have tags. So the suggestion to fix it, is a
valid one.
And it is not because JOSM warns about nodes without tags in a
powerline, that it allows you to solve that problem by clicking a
magical "Solve" button. You still have to add the tags yourself.

There is a magical "Solve" button in JOSM, but its capabilities are
limited (e.g. removing vehicle=yes on highway=residential and the
like), or merging 2 nodes that are lying on top of one another (at
least when the nodes have no tags).

regards

m.

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 10:14 PM Clifford Snow  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 10:53 AM Dave F via talk  
> wrote:
>>
>> I notice these changesets were completed in 30/60 seconds respectively.
>> I don't use iD. How is this possible? Does it have a JOSM like mass edit
>> ability?
>>
> Yes - JOSM does allow mass fixes through the validator. I've even seen 
> suggestions to fix objects on ways that are outside of the downloaded area. 
> For example, missing power poles on power lines. I don't "fix" those because 
> the validator is just looking at a node without a power pole. Often their 
> isn't a pole at that location according to the imagery.
>
> Best,
> Clifford
>
> --
> @osm_washington
> www.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] We need to have a conversation about attribution

[Marc Gemis]

>
> I am the copyright owner of my edits. You are the owner of yours.
>
> I don't recall ever giving the OSMF authority to act as my agent. Did you?


You probably agreed to
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Contributor_Terms, not ?

m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Editing road geometry Australia

[Marc Gemis]

If you miss the on-ramp and are waiting for the traffic signals, a
router can recalculate the route in the meantime and still try to let
you turn left at the traffic signals.

m.

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 1:47 PM Maarten Deen  wrote:
>
> I agree that Markus' solution is more elegant (and I was more looking to
> the offramp itself). I would normally also map it like that but I also
> don't go out of my way to correct situations like that.
> The way it is mapped now is more organic, more as you would actually
> drive. As such I don't see it as wrong.
>
> I would not add a turn restriction. For routers it is useless because
> you never get that route anyway.
>
> Regards,
> Maarten
>
> On 2019-01-11 13:23, Jem wrote:
> >> I'd map that place like that:
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:ID_Screen_Shot_from_-32.0914374,_116.0129206.png
> >
> > I agree. And a supplementary question... would you also add a
> > no-left-turn restriction from https://osm.org/way/581948344 at
> > https://osm.org/node/5680879176? I would, and have done in the past.
> > But to be honest, I'm not sure if a turn like that (having already
> > passed the slip lane designated for the turn) is legal or not.
> >
> > On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 20:47, Markus 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 07:40, Maarten Deen  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 2019-01-11 07:16, Petra Rajka - (p) wrote:
> >>>
> 
>  See below two cases where we would simplify the geometry:
> 
>    * -32.0914374, 116.0129206
> >>>
> >>> Is seen no big problem in how the roads are layed out there.
> >> Coming from
> >>> the motorway there is a clear divider where the offramp connects
> >> to the
> >>> Albany Highway.
> >>
> >>  and
> >>  form a
> >> double-rectangle,
> >> but there isn't such a divider. I'd map that place like that:
> >>
> >>
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:ID_Screen_Shot_from_-32.0914374,_116.0129206.png
> >>
> >>> I have more problems with the tags of the on- and offramp. They
> >> are
> >>> mapped as motorway when they should be mapped as motorway_link.
> >> The two
> >>> bridges in the on- and offramp are mapped as motorway_link.
> >>
> >> +1. I'd also delete the descriptions like Tonkin Highway Southbound
> >> Ramp off to Albany Highway in the name tag unless the ramps are
> >> signed
> >> like that on site.
> >>
>    * -35.3409195, 149.1616891
> >>>
> >>> Ways 77001149 and 77000891 should IMHO not be mapped like that but
> >>> mapped with turn:lanes.
> >>
> >> +1
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Markus
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> talk@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Carto release v4.17.0

[Marc Gemis]

> My intention was rather to hear about some general trends,

As far as I understand,

One general trend is to be "cleaner, have less information". (e.g. the
building removal)
Another one is paler colours (e.g. parking from yellow to grey)
other landuse colour changes towards paler colours

I regularly see comments about that, (people not liking it, I haven't
read a comment about people liking it).

The one trend I really like more icons for more items, maybe even a
zoom level where you can see lanes and turn:lanes.

m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Carto release v4.17.0

[Marc Gemis]

> BTW: what do you consider to be a progress here? What do you like the
> most in recent changes and maybe what problems are the most visible?

The sing

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Re: [OSM-talk] Paper/Article about stagnation in OSM

[Marc Gemis]

isn't this just a variation on what3words [1] or Plus Codes from Google [2] ?
Why would you enforce an address string made from 26 strange
characters to people that might never have seen the English alphabet ?

m.




[1] https://what3words.com/
[2] https://plus.codes/
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 9:45 PM oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch
 wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I read the whole article. I agree with the author's main idea, - software 
> development and implementation has got the invisible social undercurrents, 
> which are as important as the technical issues. By the way, it is true for 
> any human endeavor .
>
> Speaking of database structure, - I am thinking about creating a notion of an 
> address. More than half of the planet population does not have addresses 
> because streets
> do not have (and will never have) names, houses do not have numbers, etc. 
> Besides, in some areas addresses are unstable due to various socioeconomic 
> reasons.
>
> At the same time it is possible to create 208 billion of 8-letter unique 
> quasi-words with 26 letters of English alphabet (26 in the power of 8 = 
> 208827064576). Even more if numbers are included. It's enough for all 
> dwellings on Earth. It is easy to transmit a 8 letter word via telephone with 
> ICAO Phonetic Alphabet [1].
>
> Then when we call in browser something like: osm.org/?address=hj3u878s or 
> type the unique quasi-word into a search of of the OSM map: the distinctive 
> geo-marker appears at the respective location with the additional 
> information, such as entrance door code, apartment level, etc.
>
> There are several commercial projects which attempt to do something similar. 
> And I realize that this approach may fail. However, the path to success is 
> paved with failures.
> So at least it's worth giving it a try.
>
> However, most developers live in stable places where street names did not 
> change from the 19th century. They may not realize that lack of addresses 
> leads to situations
> where people cannot call police, firefighters, ambulance, etc. In fact they 
> can call but cannot explain where they live. What consequently leads to the 
> social issues such as appearance of alternative criminal "authorities", 
> sub-quality healers, etc.
>
> [1] http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/aviation:nato-phonetic-alphabet
>
> Best regards,
> Oleksiy
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Re: [OSM-talk] building=grandstand vs leisure=bleachers

[Marc Gemis]

You asked the exact same question in April 2018 on the tagging mailing
list, not ?

I like the response Philip Barnes gave you back then:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-April/035662.html.
bleachers = open structures, without walls, grandstands with walls,
roofs and often for professional sports.

m.
On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 8:26 AM Tomasz Wójcik  wrote:
>
> Currently, we (de facto) have 2 tags for the same feature, which is not a 
> proper state.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building=grandstand
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure=bleachers
>
> I think we should choose the correct one andadd warning moving mappers to the 
> proper one on OSM Wiki.
>
> Building=grandstand is not perfect for me, beacuse building=* tag suggest 
> that is some kind of typical building (with walls, roof, etc.) and most of 
> the OSM styles render building=grandstand like every other buildings, where 
> you can go inside, which may be confusing with grandstands areas. On the 
> other hand we have leisure=bleachers , when the "bleachers" word is propably 
> used only in USA.
>
> What do you think about it?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Scientific paper on "Information Seeding"

[Marc Gemis]

> Compare that with the AND import of the Netherlands where the data was
> accurate and needed only minor fixing but where the bulk has just been
> untouched (except for adding metadata) and is still the base of the map
> in the Netherlands.

I hope you are not referring to the building import nor the landuse
import from AND.
Which is/was crappy data and still requires cleanup in the northern
part of Belgium, although it was Dutch data.

m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] finding drinking water with an Android app

[Marc Gemis]

And of course you can use one of the mapcontrib "apps", e.g.
https://www.mapcontrib.xyz/t/8a9a5d-Eau_potable (or make your own)

regards

m

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> The wiki page of amenity=drinking_water lists 2 apps:
> [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.bplaced.tapwater
> [2] http://wetap.org/
>
> I've never tried them.
>
> m.
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 5:54 PM, Mateusz Konieczny
>  wrote:
>> I am looking for an application for Android displaying
>> amenity=drinking_water
>> locations with available offline map - I am frequently using it to avoid
>> buying plastic bottles
>> just to almost immediately throw it out.
>>
>> Any simple open source map displaying locations of some objects
>> would also be great - it should be fairly simple to adapt.
>>
>> I know that there is a search function in MAPS.ME allowing to find drinking
>> water,
>> I am currently using it but this app has long startup time and search is
>> really
>> slow for some reason (even for cases that should be easy to index).
>>
>> I found https://github.com/icechen1/TakeABreak/blob/master/README.md -
>> but it is not displaying any locations and Google maps used as a map display
>> and
>> on top of that licence seems to be missing so it is useless as a base for
>> anything.
>>
>> There is a great "OSM peak finder" app,
>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.wuwer.osmpeakfinder&hl=en_GB
>> - but source code is not available.
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] finding drinking water with an Android app

[Marc Gemis]

The wiki page of amenity=drinking_water lists 2 apps:
[1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.bplaced.tapwater
[2] http://wetap.org/

I've never tried them.

m.

On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 5:54 PM, Mateusz Konieczny
 wrote:
> I am looking for an application for Android displaying
> amenity=drinking_water
> locations with available offline map - I am frequently using it to avoid
> buying plastic bottles
> just to almost immediately throw it out.
>
> Any simple open source map displaying locations of some objects
> would also be great - it should be fairly simple to adapt.
>
> I know that there is a search function in MAPS.ME allowing to find drinking
> water,
> I am currently using it but this app has long startup time and search is
> really
> slow for some reason (even for cases that should be easy to index).
>
> I found https://github.com/icechen1/TakeABreak/blob/master/README.md -
> but it is not displaying any locations and Google maps used as a map display
> and
> on top of that licence seems to be missing so it is useless as a base for
> anything.
>
> There is a great "OSM peak finder" app,
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.wuwer.osmpeakfinder&hl=en_GB
> - but source code is not available.
>
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[OSM-talk] Mapper of the Month: Yasunari Yamashita (Japan)

[Marc Gemis]

This month we interviewed 2 Japanese mappers.
The first interview is can be found on the Belgian website [1]. The
Japanese version as a diary entry [2]. The second one will be publish
in the next couple of days.

I hope you enjoy reading it.

regards


m.

[1] http://www.osm.be/2018/05/11/en-motm-Yasunari_Yamashita.html (English)
[2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/escada/diary/43903 (Japanese)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Local language help

[Marc Gemis]

Don't you think that Belgians like Jo and the rest of the Belgian
community know best what the default language is in a certain area ?
This can be a pretty sensitive topic, which is not always easy to
understand by outsiders. So please let the Belgian community decide
the default language without pointing us to our constitution.


regards

m. (from Belgium)


p.s. Besides those areas you mention we also have Municipalities with
facilities [1]


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_with_language_facilities

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:43 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev
 wrote:
> On 09.05.18 07:46, Jo wrote:
>>
>> The whole country has 3 official languages. In the north nl is the
>> official language, in the south fr. And a small area in the east is de.
>> Brussels is officially bilingual. Hence all names there will be a
>> combination of fr - nl.
>>
>> Normally I would expect Belgium to not have default_language set. You may
>> have to keep a list of countries where it only makes sense to look at the
>> next smaller geographic regions.
>>
>> I expect the same goes for Switzerland (whole country 3-4 official
>> languages, but at the next geographic level it is clear which language is
>> spoken/official for which region).
>>
>> I think in most multilingual countries the regions are not so clearly
>> defined.
>>
>> Jo
>
>
> Hello Jo and Yuri,
>
> Here is the text of the article 4 of the Belgian constitution [1]
>
> "Article 4
> Belgium comprises four linguistic regions: the Dutch-speaking region, the
> French-
> speaking region, the bilingual region of Brussels-Capital and the
> German-speaking region.
> Each municipality of the Kingdom forms part of one of these linguistic
> regions."
>
> In the Swiss constitution [2] it is stated directly that there are four
> national languages. It is also the article 4:
>
> "Art. 4 National languages
> The National Languages are German, French, Italian, and Romansh."
>
> It is not a light question, - which language is the default one for these
> countries. In my opinion, following these official texts is the best
> solution.
>
> [1]
> https://www.dekamer.be/kvvcr/pdf_sections/publications/constitution/GrondwetUK.pdf
> [2]
> https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19995395/index.html#a4
>
> Best regards,
> Oleksiy
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM editor for cycling infrastructure on smartphone?

[Marc Gemis]

https://www.mapcontrib.xyz/ has a number of dedicated "apps". Search
for bicycle on the home page.


On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 1:12 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> Is there anywhere an app for editing specifically bicycle infrastructure
> elements in OSM: bicycle paths, shared foot-bicycle paths, road crossings,
> bollards and other assorted handicaps on cycle paths, cycle racks,...
>
> Volker
> Padova, Italy
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Name:* tags in the local language

[Marc Gemis]

Discussing this in parallel on our Riot channel. The decision was made
before I joined OSM (thus before 2011).
Apparently for the renderer, (as a street name with a semi-colon looks
weird to non-insiders I guess).

regards

m

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Daniel Koć  wrote:
> W dniu 26.04.2018 o 14:49, Marc Gemis pisze:
>> The name for the country in the name tag is " België / Belgique / Belgien" 
>> (*)
>> The name for any street in Brussels is either " - "
>> or " - " with the majority mapped with French in
>> front.
>>
>> The names never use a semi-colon. Without looking at name:fr / name:nl
>> tags you don't know which part of the name belongs to which language
>> (I think).
>> For Belgium there is no problem, as the names will only contain latin
>> characters, but in other cases it might become difficult, not ?
>
> 1. In database we store values, not typographic conventions, that's why
> semicolon to separate multiple values.
>
> 2. The data consumer can decide what type of separator she wants to use.
> It's data presentation part, not data storage. One can decide to show "
> België - Belgique - Belgien" for example or fall back to name and so on.
> The same with streets: one may always render " - " or
> "/" or whatever else (like one in bold and the second
> one in italics).
>
> --
> "My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Name:* tags in the local language

[Marc Gemis]

The name for the country in the name tag is " België / Belgique / Belgien" (*)
The name for any street in Brussels is either " - "
or " - " with the majority mapped with French in
front.

The names never use a semi-colon. Without looking at name:fr / name:nl
tags you don't know which part of the name belongs to which language
(I think).
For Belgium there is no problem, as the names will only contain latin
characters, but in other cases it might become difficult, not ?

m.

(*) I wonder whether the separator was always "/" here.

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Daniel Koć  wrote:
> W dniu 26.04.2018 o 13:53, Marc Gemis pisze:
>> Do you now assume that names in region B outside city C have a
>> namehr;nameit in the name tag?
>
> Yes, unless stated otherwise for cities E, F and G.
>
> To be clear: I assume only that if they name:hr=* and name:it=*, both
> are official, but that doesn't mean both need to be tagged (one or more
> name tag may be just missing).
>
>> That's not how we have done it for Belgium or any street in Brussels.
>
> Isn't it like this:
>
> Country Belgium - official_language=de;fr;nl
> Region Brussels-Capital - official_language=fr;nl
> City Eupen - official_language=de
>
> What would be wrong with this scheme?
>
> --
> "My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Sidewalk symmetry

[Marc Gemis]

I wonder why those arguments always pop up when we talk about separate
sidewalks and not when we talk about separate cycleways.
AFAIK it is common practice to map cycleways as separate ways in OSM
as soon as there is a kerb.

Don't we encounter the same problems in data processing for cycleways ?

m.

On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 8:56 PM, Tobias Knerr  wrote:
> On 24.04.2018 02:17, Clifford Snow wrote:
>> But if you want
>> someone to use the data, then map it as separate ways.
>
> That's not the case, and it's a bit frustrating to read this just after
> I wrote a mail explaining this point. To reiterate:
>
> * With separate ways, we don't know which road section a sidewalk
> belongs to.
> * This knowledge is necessary for many applications.
>
> For such a fundamental property, "research scientists believe they can
> use the spatial proximity" is not good enough imo. It has to be
> practical to obtain this relationship from OSM data.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Diversity-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?

[Marc Gemis]

FYI The unisex tag is also used as a shorthand for female=yes,  male=yes on
shop=hairdresser [1] . Giving it another meaning on toilets might cause
extra confusion.


regards

m

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=hairdresser

Op di 24 apr. 2018 18:27 schreef Rory McCann :

> Hi all,
>
> Let's have a wee talk about how should one map gender neutral (and
> gender segregated) toilets. There is a unisex=yes for toilets which
> looks like it might be the number one tag to use. The bog standard
> meaning of "unisex toilet"[1] is a gender neutral toilet, i.e. not
> segregated into separate male & female facilities.
>
> Many smaller public toilets are single occupancy and hence unisex, many
> larger public toilets (e.g. in shopping centers) are segregated. Social
> conservatives are mostly losing the battle on same-sex marriage, so
> their new target is trans people, and they're proposing "bathroom laws"
> to limit trans people's access to public life. Some organizations are
> making their toilets "gender neutral" in response. So there are probably
> a lot of gender neutral public toilets, and it's very useful for some
> people to know where they are.
>
> But I don't think that's how "unisex=yes" been used in OSM. The wiki
> page says "unisex=yes" is a shorthand for "male=yes female=yes". The
> JOSM validator used to suggest that replacement, until I filed a bug[2].
> iD's preset has 3 mutually exclusive options, Male, Female and Unisex,
> it won't let you add both male=yes female=yes.
>
> If I see "amenity=toilets unisex=yes", I would think this is a gender
> neutral toilet. If I see "amenity=toilets female=yes male=yes" I would
> think gender segregated. Big difference.
>
> I propose that we start viewing "unisex=yes" on toilets as meaning
> "gender neutral toilet", which is different from "male=yes female=yes",
> which is "gender segregated".
>
> Thoughts? Feedback? Anything I'm missing? Is unisex-yes tag being used
> by many projects? What do they interpret it as? It's good not to force
> things.
>
> A year ago Micah Cochran's suggestion[3] would be along these lines, but
> some changed to toilets:for:unisex=yes (etc.)
>
> Rory
>
> P.S. I am doing this as part of the "Diversity Quarterly Project"[4],
> which for the quarter is gendered toilets. Plenty of toilets have no
> male/female (and/or unisex) tag, and we should add those tags.
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet
> [2] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/15536
> [3]
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Toilet_Tagging_Improvements
> [4]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity_Quarterly_Project/2018_Q2
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] diversity-talk: No such list

[Marc Gemis]

I know of at least 1 person that got banned from the tagging mailing
list for 2 weeks or so for using inappropriate language.

regards

m.

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 1:48 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 20. Feb 2018, at 02:50, Kate Chapman  wrote:
>>
>> If someone wants to moderate and admin the list I'm sure it could be brought 
>> back.
>
>
> I can admin it, but I don‘t feel I could moderate it. Would that work out, or 
> is moderation a hard requirement?
>
> I’m admin of a local mailing list and, as typical for osm from my experience 
> (save occasionally some English language lists, particularly in connection 
> with board elections), in all those years we only had friendly contributions, 
> so nobody ever felt a need for moderation (AFAIK).
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tool for tag tracking

[Marc Gemis]

Oleksiy,

Is your planned tool similar to : http://tagfinder.herokuapp.com/ ?

m.

On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 1:46 PM, Oleksiy Muzalyev
 wrote:
> I work on a tool to view a certain tag on the map for a non-programmer, for
> those who do not speak English (a language could be selected in the upper
> write part of the page), and do not know the OSM tags by heart:
> http://ausleuchtung.ch/travel_pack/
>
> It is based on Overpass API.
>
> Best regards,
> O.
> OSM: Alex-7
>
> On 11.01.18 09:53, Javier Sánchez Portero wrote:
>
> Hello
>
> I can't find a Quality Assurace tool to track additions of objects with a
> specific tag in an area.
>
> I know I can do it with a local updated instance of the database, but I'm
> looking for a accesible way for a non programer.
>
> Does anyone know any?
>
> Thank you in advance,
> Javier
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] no osmf-talk link at listinfo

[Marc Gemis]

It's listed on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
Just click on the "archive" link there to access it (read-only of
course) as a non OSMF member.


m.

On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 4:19 AM, Sérgio V.  wrote:
> Of course I understand, and support, that sending emails to OSMF-talk  is
> only to OSMF members, a non-member should not have the right to send emails
> to that list.
> But readable it is; as usual in democratic institutions, where discussions
> can be listen.
> So the easier it could be to find OSMF-talk to be read, by any OSMer, the
> better, the more democratic it is.
> Of course, hope it keeps openly readable.
> The discussions there are relevant for the rest of the OSM world. Thanks.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
>
>
>
> 
> De: Tom Hughes 
> Enviado: terça-feira, 19 de dezembro de 2017 21:54
> Para: Sérgio V.; talk@openstreetmap.org
> Assunto: Re: no osmf-talk link at listinfo
>
> On 19/12/17 22:51, Sérgio V. wrote:
 but I can't find the link to osmf-talk in the listinfo.
>>>  I'm not sure why it wasn't listed on that page, but there is a link to
>> the OSMF-talk archives from the Wiki
>>
>> Ok, thank you both. I've found it, as I've quoted it.
>> But it's actually not easy to find like the others are, just
>> by the listinfo.
>> Long time it took to me to realise OSMF-talk exists. Ok, perhaps I'm not
>> that wiki expert.
>> But would it be nice to have it listed in listinfo? Like all the other
>> mailing lists are? Easy to find, for everyone.
>> Then probably more OSMers could read it; also perhaps considering join it.
>> Or, at least, why isn't it listed in listinfo?
>
> As I explained yesterday it is a private list open only to OSMF members.
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
> http://compton.nu/
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] What would make MapRoulette better?

[Marc Gemis]

Martijn,

I'll agree with Yuri that is has to be the choice of the mapper to
work in a specific region and not the challenge creator. I don't want
to ask each challenge creator to split up the challenge in smaller
chunks, just because I feel uncomfortable editing outside a certain
area. This area can also be different from challenge to challenge and
from mapper to mapper.

You already have a view where you show the individual tasks within a
challenge. One can pick a task from this view right now, but after
marking the task as completed, a completely random one is chosen
again.

For me, it would be sufficient to have a button/switch on the screen
with all individual tasks that switches to "only tasks from the
current bounding box". Would that be feasible ?

m.

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
> Marc,
>
> Good point and something that has come up often.
> As Joost mentioned in a reply, the easy solution for this is, as a challenge 
> owner, to split up the challenge into regional chunks and label them as such.
>
> The new version will have ‘filter by current map bounds’. I’m not quite sure 
> how to best do this yet. One solution would be to filter by challenge 
> ‘centroids’ (simple), another would be to consider whatever challenge has at 
> least one task within the current map bounds (harder). What would be your 
> idea about this? Others with an opinion?
> --
> Martijn van Exel
>
> On November 20, 2017 at 9:58:40 AM, Marc Gemis (marc.ge...@gmail.com) wrote:
>> The possibility to work more locally. E.g. there is a project to add
>> missing roads in Belgium, I would really like to see only the "issues"
>> within let say 20km of my house (an arbitrary point I can set).
>>
>> m.
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > For those who have used MapRoulette or at least have a good understanding 
>> > of
>> > what it does: what would be the *one top thing* for you that would make it
>> > better?
>> >
>> > I am asking because I am working on a new major release.
>> > --
>> > Martijn van Exel
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>> >
>>
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] What would make MapRoulette better?

[Marc Gemis]

The possibility to work more locally. E.g. there is a project to add
missing roads in Belgium, I would really like to see only the "issues"
within let say 20km of my house (an arbitrary point I can set).

m.

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> For those who have used MapRoulette or at least have a good understanding of
> what it does: what would be the *one top thing* for you that would make it
> better?
>
> I am asking because I am working on a new major release.
> --
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Woods vs Forests

[Marc Gemis]

On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 11:24 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 02-Nov-17 08:58 PM, Tomas Straupis wrote:
>>
>> 2017-11-02 11:24 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis wrote:
>>>
>>> The current situation is not helping in producing useful maps. Too
>>> often I find myself in a residential area with large gardens and trees
>>> when I expected to find a real forest based on what OSM is displaying.
>
>
> What is a 'real forest'? Compared to this 'residential area with large
> gardens and trees'?
>
> Would not the area give away what you would find there?
>
> How is a small area of trees different from a larger one?

What do you expect from

* http://osm.org/go/0Erceo7JJ-
* http://osm.org/go/0EjtkaxH
* http://osm.org/go/0ErRW49us-

?

In the first 2 the main use of the land is residential. Why do I see
landuse=forest ? IMHO it should be landuse=residential ;
leisure=garden;access=private ; landcover=trees

m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Woods vs Forests

[Marc Gemis]

The current situation is not helping in producing useful maps. Too
often I find myself in a residential area with large gardens and trees
when I expected to find a real forest based on what OSM is displaying.

So there is room for improvement.

I like the landcover=trees idea, but this does not describe the
complete picture. I also want t be able to indicate what is between
the trees: ground, grass, grassy plants, bushes.
And when is something landcover=trees + bushes and when
landcover=bushes + some trees ?

m.

On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Tomas Straupis  wrote:
>> IMHO there are semantic implications in the key, as has been said many
>> times, <...>
>
>   And that is subjective -> nobody is wrong -> everybody is right ->
> everybody thinks THEIR proposal is the right one -> this topic is not
> settled for so many years -> I suggest doing a compromise and agreeing
> on ONE tag.
>   (Compromise is currently done on rendering/data extraction side.
> Nobody cares there about natural/landuse/landcover whatever. It's one
> forest and that is it)
>
>   The only other way is to use de facto situation - natural=wood and
> landuse=forest - and forget this discussion.
>
> P.S. And all I wanted was to talk about topology rules... BTW: here is
> an example of topology rules in Lithuania:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Lithuania/Topology_rules
>
> --
> Tomas
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding wikidata tags to the remaining objects with only wikipedia tag

[Marc Gemis]

Please tell me where the wikipedia link is in e.g.
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q37344570  :-)
Wikidata does not have to be a bunch of links to wikipedia articles.
It has references to 2 external DBs (ODIS & Onroerend erfgoed), so it
should be considered notable.

I have no  idea how many bad items there are in Wikidata, just as I
don't know how many bad nodes there are in OSM (e.g. just a name tag).
Do we have to throw OSM through the window just because I can find
some nodes with just a name tag ?
So why do we do this with another project ?


m.



On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> 2017-10-25 9:27 GMT+02:00 Safwat Halaby :
>>
>>
>> A Wikidata tag is just as verifiable as Wikipedia tag: Both require
>> visiting an external site. Y
>
>
>
> no, because wikipedia articles describe what they are about (or get deleted
> for lack of substance), wikidata objects often don't say what they are about
> (besides the name), they are just a bunch of links to wikipedia articles in
> different languages and not too rarely with different content (you have to
> decide which linked wikipedia article in which language defines the object).
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Quick-Fix service

[Marc Gemis]

I was thinking about possible changes to the tool that would make it a
useful tool for the community, and at the same time not violating any
policy.


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 1:06 PM, Christoph Hormann  wrote:
> On Monday 16 October 2017, Marc Gemis wrote:
>> Would Yuri's tool be OK, if the proposed changes were limited to
>> objects that were created/last edited after survey to the person that
>> is using the tool ?
>>
>> I was thinking of a scenario where people try to help with a
>> tag-renaming proposal.
>> Such a tool would be handy to help them locate all objects that they
>> know well and retag them.
>
> I think you are missing the point here - this tool's only purpose is
> doing automated edits.  The discussion if and under what circumstances
> automated edits are OK for the community is not the issue here, this is
> already regulated by the automated edit policy.
>
> Creating a tool for doing automated edits is perfectly fine, but
> designing it in a way and advertising it in a way that encourages
> automated edits in ignorance of existing rules is not.
>
> You probably recall that we have had discussions in how far Maproulette
> encourages mechanical edits
> (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/imagico/diary/40759) but Martijn has
> always demonstrated he is aware of the problem and tries to avoid such
> abuse, for example by not allowing anonymous challenges and not having
> simple click through tasks with already fully predetermined editing
> decisions.
>
> In summary so far i think it can be said developers in the OSM context
> have overwhelmingly been responsible in the way they design tools in
> compliance with the spirit of the OSM community.  But this one is
> clearly different in that regard.
>
> --
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> http://www.imagico.de/
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Quick-Fix service

[Marc Gemis]

Would Yuri's tool be OK, if the proposed changes were limited to
objects that were created/last edited after survey to the person that
is using the tool ?

I was thinking of a scenario where people try to help with a
tag-renaming proposal.
Such a tool would be handy to help them locate all objects that they
know well and retag them.

m.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 12:13 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> Frederik:
>>
>> I am appalled that after your abysmal OSM editing history where you more
>> often than not ignored existing customs rules, while *claiming* to
>> follow them, you're now building a service that entices others to do the
>> same.
>
>
>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 6:09 AM Christoph Hormann  wrote:
>>> This is a tool to perform automated edits as per the automated edits
>>> policy.  A resposible developer of such a tool should inform its users
>>> that making automated edits comes with certain requirements and that
>>> not following these rules can result in changes being reverted and user
>>> accounts being blocked.
>
>
> 2017-10-14 13:06 GMT+02:00 Yuri Astrakhan :
>>
>> Christoph, I looked around Osmose and MapRoulette, and I don't see any
>> such warnings . Could you elaborate how you would like these kinds of tools
>> to promote good editing practices? Any UI ideas? I'll be happy to improve
>> our tools on making sure they meet community expectations.
>
>
>
> I agree with Christoph and Frederik, that this is oviously a tool to perform
> (crowdsourced) automated edits, and although it is designed in a way to make
> them look like individual contributions, the automated editing guidelines
> should apply. I agree with Yuri that there is also (to some lesser extent,
> as the editing is not performed by the tool) some problematic potential in
> other QA tools like Osmose or "remote batch fixing" tools like MapRoulette.
>
> The thing with remotely "fixing tags" is that people usually don't know the
> situation on the ground and therefore hardly can make an individual decision
> for the specific object. The proposed "one-click-solution" encourages to do
> quick "fixes" without looking individually, and you even refuse to notify
> people that they might be participating in an automated edit. In examples
> like the one you gave, even if you look very hard, you won't see something
> that confirms the proposed change (you will have to know the place). I could
> imagine there are good cases where your tool can facilitate fixing problems,
> e.g. with clear typos (highway=residental), but changing from one tag to a
> combination of two is not one of them (either we could make an automated
> edit, or if it's disputed, we wouldn't do it at all, rather than sneaking it
> in via distributed automated editing).
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding wikidata tags to the remaining objects with only wikipedia tag

[Marc Gemis]

> Wikipedia is based on secondary sources, it rejects original research.
> OSM is fundamentally different in that because it is based on
> verification by original research.

I'm trying to understand this.

If I noticed an inception date on a information sign next to a
building, is this original research or a secondary source ?

If a Wikidata contributor/Wikipedian researches websites like Orbis,
Onroerend erfgoed, etc and finds different inception dates and records
them all, is it bad that s/he uses secondary sources instead of the
information sign on the ground ?

I wonder whether OSM is really always based on original research, or
whether we sometimes just want to believe this.

regards

m

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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM

[Marc Gemis]

O, I even believe that e.g. all (or a large number of) Dutch streets
are in Wikidata without having a Wikipedia article for the individual
streets.

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> Thanks for explaining, Andy.
>
> Please note that as I said before, it is not true that there is a
> Wikipedia article for each Wikidata item. E.g.  There is a whole group
>  working on inventarising art in musea. They do create Wikidata items,
> but no Wikipedia articles for the individual items. It is true that
> each Wikipedia article (or page) has a Wikidata entry, but not the
> other way around.
>
> regards
>
> m
>
> On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>> On 28/09/2017 10:36, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>>
>>> Andy are you now saying that it is OK to have 1 wikidata tag on each
>>> street, so someone can create an external list of streets with
>>> Wikidata ids to represent some kind of collection (like "all streets
>>> named after Leuven") ?
>>
>> Firstly I'm not saying "what is or is not OK" - that's essentially the point
>> of this discussion, to find out what people do think.
>>
>> What I'm saying is that the expression of that sort of relationship possibly
>> doesn't belong in OSM itself (because it's not really on-the-ground
>> verifiable, or at least in many cases it won't be).
>>
>> If a street passed whatever tests wikipedia impose to have a wikipedia
>> entry, and by inference a wikidata one (wikidata items essentially being all
>> created from wikipedia, with links added later) then yes, by all means add a
>> wikipedia/wikidata link to the OSM object, then add your "etymology" link
>> within wikidata.
>>
>> Obviously wikipedia/wikidata's rules for inclusion are very different to
>> ours (in some cases the opposite - wikipedia says "no original research -
>> please copy from some other source").  There are plenty of examples of
>> things that people think should be in wikipedia and aren't, and also things
>> that shouldn't be in wikipedia/wikidata (because they don't exist) and are.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Andy
>>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM

[Marc Gemis]

Thanks for explaining, Andy.

Please note that as I said before, it is not true that there is a
Wikipedia article for each Wikidata item. E.g.  There is a whole group
 working on inventarising art in musea. They do create Wikidata items,
but no Wikipedia articles for the individual items. It is true that
each Wikipedia article (or page) has a Wikidata entry, but not the
other way around.

regards

m

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 28/09/2017 10:36, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>
>> Andy are you now saying that it is OK to have 1 wikidata tag on each
>> street, so someone can create an external list of streets with
>> Wikidata ids to represent some kind of collection (like "all streets
>> named after Leuven") ?
>
> Firstly I'm not saying "what is or is not OK" - that's essentially the point
> of this discussion, to find out what people do think.
>
> What I'm saying is that the expression of that sort of relationship possibly
> doesn't belong in OSM itself (because it's not really on-the-ground
> verifiable, or at least in many cases it won't be).
>
> If a street passed whatever tests wikipedia impose to have a wikipedia
> entry, and by inference a wikidata one (wikidata items essentially being all
> created from wikipedia, with links added later) then yes, by all means add a
> wikipedia/wikidata link to the OSM object, then add your "etymology" link
> within wikidata.
>
> Obviously wikipedia/wikidata's rules for inclusion are very different to
> ours (in some cases the opposite - wikipedia says "no original research -
> please copy from some other source").  There are plenty of examples of
> things that people think should be in wikipedia and aren't, and also things
> that shouldn't be in wikipedia/wikidata (because they don't exist) and are.
>
> Best Regards,
> Andy
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM (was: Overlapping brands)

[Marc Gemis]

Andy are you now saying that it is OK to have 1 wikidata tag on each
street, so someone can create an external list of streets with
Wikidata ids to represent some kind of collection (like "all streets
named after Leuven") ?

m.

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 28/09/2017 09:28, Jo wrote:
>>
>>
>> All OSM objects with a name (in several languages) referring to a city.
>> More zoomed in:
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/s20
>>
> ... except that it isn't necessarily "all objects" - it's "a list of objects
> in OSM manually curated by you".  You're still going to have to monitor
> changes to those objects and look for new instances of "objects named after
> Leuven" in the real world and newly added to OSM.  You happen to be using a
> "name:etymology:wikidata" key in OSM to do this, but frankly you could keep
> that list anywhere - it doesn't depend on "etymology" wikidata tags in OSM.
> Many mappers (especially those with a first language that doesn't use many
> Greek roots) will I suspect struggle with what "name:etymology:wikidata"
> actually means.
>
> I'd have thought that this sort of "extra non-geographical information" was
> better held outside of OSM, and then link back into OSM via e.g.
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/wikidata=Q118958 or even
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/wikipedia=nl%3ALeuven .
>
> I'm not saying that it isn't a great project - it's exactly the sort of
> thing that many OSMers do for many different sorts of data.  I'm just not
> convinced that it depends on the ability to create more and more
> unverifiable keys within OSM.
>
> Best Regards,
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding wikidata tags to the remaining objects with only wikipedia tag

[Marc Gemis]

So you do not agree with the Automated Edits code of conduct ?
If an automated edit takes place in a country, why do you expect that
that community follows the talk mailing list or even speak English ?
People has the right to know that some stranger starts making changes
in their area without being forced to read a mailing list (which is an
outdated medium for the younger) or understand English.

An import has to be discussed with the local community, so why would
an automated edit be different ?

regards

m.

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
> 2017-09-27 16:56 GMT+02:00 Andy Mabbett :
>>
>> On 26 September 2017 at 21:39, Martin Koppenhoefer
>>  wrote:
>>
>> >> This might also mean that
>> >> you have to discuss it via Telegram, Facebook, email, IRC, etc.
>> >> depending on where that local community is.
>> >>
>> >> The talk mailing list is not sufficient.
>>
>> > I think this is problematic. If the local community uses a paid service
>> > for
>> > communication you'd have to pay in order to speak to your fellow
>> > mappers?
>>
>> The mapping community in the West Midlands of England communicates
>> most often face-to-face, meeting in a a pub.
>>
>> Perhaps we could mandate that anyone wanting to make an automated edit
>> in the region has to buy the beer?
>
>
>
> you don't only pay with money, e.g. in Facebook you only pay money if you
> are a client of theirs (buying visibility for your advertizing), the
> ordinary users (merchandise) pay with data and their privacy.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping brands (was "Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*")

[Marc Gemis]

>
> Can anyone think of an example where two unrelated brands share the same
> name and category of business in the same geographical area?

Is "the same geographical area" relevant ? Why should a data consumer
use a separate datebase to identify the brand of an item ?

Suppose I want to find all "Wendy's". Why do I need to know that the
one in The Netherlands does not  belong to the brand found in the US ?
[1] Shouldn't this be part of the OSM data in some way ?

regards

m

[1] 
https://www.businessinsider.nl/een-zeeuw-noemde-zn-snackbar-wendys-naar-zn-dochter-en-weerstaat-de-gelijknamige-amerikaanse-fastfoodgigant/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*

[Marc Gemis]

I fail to understand how an external database can link to an OSM
location in case we do not allow foreign keys.
I know there is some vague "find something with a name similar to X in
some area Y" kind of strategy, but did somebody ever implemented such
a thing ?
I doubt that "area Y" is always known.

Suppose a tourist agency has some additional information an an hotel.
How can they link that information to the OSM object ? Do they have to
store the coordinates, then do a query for hotel with name X around
that location ? Is that the best method ?

Just curious.

m.

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 3:59 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 27.09.2017 15:37, Simon Poole wrote:
>> My take is that it adds a nearly impossible to maintain (consider your
>> own Woolworth's example), non-speaking, foreign key
>
> We generally discourage foreign keys (that are only usable together with
> a different data set and that are not signposted locally).
>
> When Wikidata keys were first added to OSM, I thought this was something
> limited to place names of a certain importance and I didn't object.
>
> Seeing that this now leads to the automatic assumption that Wikidata IDs
> are practically admissible *everywhere* where Wikidata has defined an
> ID, I am having second thoughts about the whole issue.
>
> In theory, almost everything we map could be expressed by a Wikidata ID.
> If welcoming a Wikidata link on a city place node means that by
> extension I also have to welcome "amenity:wikidata=Q123456" on something
> that is, say, an ice cream parlour because Q123456 is the generic
> Wikidata category for ice cream parlours, then I think I'd rather not
> have any Wikidata links in OSM at all.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
>
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding wikidata tags to the remaining objects with only wikipedia tag

[Marc Gemis]

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 1:17 AM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> That's simply rubbish.  Tags on an OSM object describe it in the real world.
> They should be verifiable.  Whether an OSM object has a wikidata tag on it
> is essentially irrelevant as far as OSM is concerned - it's just a primary
> key into an external database.  External data consumers might find the data
> in that database useful, but they can also get to it via wikipedia tags
> (which, being human-readable, are more likely to be maintained), so it's
> really not a big deal.


I hope everyone realizes that there are Wikidata items for which there
is no Wikipedia article. So you cannot always find it via Wikipedia
tags.

And at least JOSM shows a human readable name of a Wikidata item
besides the Q-number. I think iD does this as well.

m. (who manually adds Wikidata references for Flemish churches after
creating the Wikidata items).

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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding wikidata tags to the remaining objects with only wikipedia tag

[Marc Gemis]

Seems, that I was mistaken:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct states:

Either talk (a general purpose mailing list)
or if your edit affects only one country or territory then the
national-language mailing lists, forums, or other standard
communication methods for the territory affected by the change
or ...


This seems odd to me, as not all communities affected by a mechanical
edit are represented in talk. So this means that the country in which
most edits will take place do not have to be consulted ?

regards

m.

p.s. OSM is a community project, not a programmers project, it's about
people, not software :-)

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Andy Mabbett
 wrote:
> On 26 September 2017 at 04:14, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>
>> I believe the mechanical edit polity demands that you discuss with the
>> *local* community. That means if your edit modifies items in e.g.
>> Mexico, Belgium and Japan, you have to discuss your edit with the
>> communities in Mexico, Belgium and Japan.
>
> That is clearly impractical for a task of this nature and, if true,
> would be an effective prohibition on any such beneficial editing.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Marc Gemis]

By using Osmose, it would be possible to involve the local
communities. People would learn about Wikidata, and might start adding
them to other objects as well. They might even start contributing to
Wikidata as well.
By just running your program, you would only fix a small number of
entries and nobody would know, nobody would bother about them.

I have the feeling that a program can fix some errors in a short
period, but doesn't bring anything else. Allowing people to fix
trivial problems, allow them to get familiar with the data, they will
take some form of ownership and maintain the data and that is more
beneficial in the long term than an automated quick fix now.

m.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:53 AM, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
> According to Martijn (of MapRoulette fame), there is no way a challenge can
> link to object IDs. MapRoulette can only highlight location. Nor can I
> provide a proposed fix, which means someone would have to manually find the
> broken object, navigate to Wikipedia, copy/paste the title, and save the
> object.  I guesstimate 1 minute per object on average... that's nearly 700
> hours of community time - a huge waste of human brain power that could be
> spent on a much more challenging and less automatable tasks.
>
> Osmose might be a good alternative, and might even lower the total number of
> hours required, but still - would that significantly benefit the project?
> These tags are just a tiny arbitrary subset of one million wikipedia-tagged
> objects.  Verifying just them by hand seems like a waste of human
> intelligence. Instead, we can run queries to produce knowingly bad objects
> and let community fix those. I hope we can let machines do mindless tasks,
> and let humans do decision making.  This would improve contributors morale,
> instead of making them feel like robots :)
>
> Clarifying: the OSM objects already point to those pages via redirect. The
> redirect information is only stored in Wikipedia.
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>>
>> or via Osmose ?
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>> > what about a Maproulette task ?
>> >
>> > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Yuri Astrakhan
>> >  wrote:
>> >> At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia tag
>> >> does
>> >> not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects,
>> >> whose
>> >> target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
>> >> wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we
>> >> should fix
>> >> them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community
>> >> time,
>> >> when it can be semi-automated.
>> >>
>> >> I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would change
>> >> wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the redirect.
>> >>
>> >> Thoughts?
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> talk mailing list
>> >> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>> >>
>
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Marc Gemis]

or via Osmose ?

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> what about a Maproulette task ?
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Yuri Astrakhan  
> wrote:
>> At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia tag does
>> not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects, whose
>> target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
>> wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we should fix
>> them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community time,
>> when it can be semi-automated.
>>
>> I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would change
>> wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the redirect.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Marc Gemis]

what about a Maproulette task ?

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
> At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia tag does
> not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects, whose
> target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
> wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we should fix
> them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community time,
> when it can be semi-automated.
>
> I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would change
> wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the redirect.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding wikidata tags to the remaining objects with only wikipedia tag

[Marc Gemis]

> moving it here.  I believe I acted in good faith according to the mechanical
> edit policy - discussed with the community, and proceeded.

I believe the mechanical edit polity demands that you discuss with the
*local* community. That means if your edit modifies items in e.g.
Mexico, Belgium and Japan, you have to discuss your edit with the
communities in Mexico, Belgium and Japan. This might also mean that
you have to discuss it via Telegram, Facebook, email, IRC, etc.
depending on where that local community is.

The talk mailing list is not sufficient.

regards

m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding wikidata tags to the remaining objects with only wikipedia tag

[Marc Gemis]

As for the Faroer Islands (https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4628) I see
some contradicting information there.The labels refer to an
archipelago, while the "is a" statement refers to an administrative
part of Denmark.

When an item has only 1 "is a" statement, it is not possible to refer
to 2 different concepts. However, it is possible to have to "is a"
statements on an item.

m.

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 6:02 PM, Christoph Hormann  wrote:
> On Wednesday 20 September 2017, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
>>
>> This is most certainly a wrong modeling in Wikidata. While we can
>> just have one well-written and comprehensive Wikipedia article about
>> the country/archipelago, in Wikidata, one item should correspond to
>> one concept.
>
> Maybe - but even if that is the case the wikidata concept of a country
> or archipelago is not necessarily the same as in OSM.  For countries
> and archipelagos this might sound strange (an archipelago is an
> archipelago, right?) but as you surely know the meaning of tags in OSM
> can be quite peculiar in the way it develops over time based on mapping
> needs and it would be quite insane if wikidata copied all these
> peculiarities in their classification system.
>
> I don't know a lot about wikidata but as far as i can see every
> wikipedia article links to exactly one wikidata item and there are many
> geographic wikipedia articles that describe several different concepts
> together for which separate OSM features exist.
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Highway=trunk : harmonization between countries ?

[Marc Gemis]

>
>> maxspeed:practical should take dense account or traffic jams into
>> account as good as possible. So far I am not aware of any router
>> evaluating time based conditional restrictions but those could be
>> used to take rush hours somewhat into account.
>
> Agreed.  Or even live traffic.  But I agree with the notion that
> maxspeed:practical should be a representative speed that's valid most of
> the time.
>

Rush hour is different from the rest of the day, Speed might even be
different in both directions during rush hour. So you'll need
forward/backward with times.
Weekends are different, Weekend during holiday season are different
from other weekends.
Snow / rain changes the practical speed.

I fear there are more exceptions than representative times.

>> (I don't know what Apple maps does, but I think they use speed estimates
> from other apple users and do not clamp them to speed limits.  At least
> it seems that way in that Apple computes routes that are in fact fast
> but would be slower if speed limits were observed.)

Anyone seen the presentation of MapBox and their work on Telemetry
during SOTM this year ?
Looks promising as an improvement to predict driving times.

That's also why Waze seems to be popular. Road blocks are passed along
users in real time.
People can change their route as soon as this info comes in. Some
users find that the official traffic information comes too late.

regards

m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Highway=trunk : harmonization between countries ?

[Marc Gemis]

Did you try with e.g. MapFactor Navigator, which has settings for your
preference of 8 road categories + maxspeed inside & outside towns ?
Just being curious.

regards

m

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Lester Caine  wrote:
> On 22/08/17 11:41, Colin Smale wrote:
>> I agree,  classification should be largely irrelevant to routing.
>> Routing needs timings from node to node, which are best derived from
>> bendiness, number of lanes, junctions etc and then capped to the legal
>> maximum. A four-lane secondary, primary, trunk or motorway will all have
>> the same effective speed in the absence of bends and junctions.
>
> The problem here is that most routing systems use the highway= tag as
> the initial key to defining the 'defaults' for a link and the delay
> elements added moving from one type of road to another. I am convinced
> there is a problem with the tagging of the B4632 which is preventing it
> from being seen as an alternative to the A46 10 mile detour but as yet
> I've not spotted anything wrong. Shortest routing will pick it up, but
> then avoids the M40/M6 for the next stage :( It's not just OSM routing
> that gives problems, other routing engines are showing similar detours
> around local 'shortcuts' ... so even within a single country
> harmonization is a problem ...
>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Highway=trunk : harmonization between countries ?

[Marc Gemis]

> So basically: please don't go adjusting roads in the US away from
> established rough consensus because you think it ought to be different.

or anywhere else I would say :-)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Highway=trunk : harmonization between countries ?

[Marc Gemis]

As you can see from
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway:International_equivalence,
trunk roads are defined differently in many countries. If you look at
e.g. Denmark, a trunk road needs a special sign. Those signs typically
come with some rules and permissions (e.g. higher speed allowed, no
pedestrians). In many cases there will be "end-of-trunk-roads" signs
at town boundaries. This means that the trunk road effectively ends
there.

So trunk roads are more about physical characteristics and traffic
signs and less about their importance in the road network. The same is
more or less true for motorways.

I see no reason why a trunk road has to continue inside village
boundaries, where the maxspeed is e.g. limited to 50.

regards

m



On Sat, Aug 19, 2017 at 5:30 PM, djakk djakk  wrote:
> "strategic" may not be the right word (my english is rusty :) )
>
> The thing is, I want to avoid those dotted highway=trunk like this :
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/48.5884/-1.4035 (trunk then primary in
> the town then trunk again), I'd prefer trunk - still trunk in the town -
> trunk, like in England :
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/51.1057/-2.1245
>
> 2017-08-19 14:00 GMT+02:00 Greg Troxel :
>>
>>
>> Colin Smale  writes:
>>
>> > Interesting approach, which might work for Europe, but at the moment I
>> > am not entirely convinced. What is strategic at a European level might
>> > not be so strategic locally, and vice versa. The European numbers are
>> > also not signposted everywhere, so there may be a challenge of
>> > verifiability. I believe the European definition basically defines the
>> > endpoints and a few waypoints, and it is left to national authorities to
>> > join the dots as they wish. So it may or may not achieve your goal of
>> > having a harmonised definition between countries.
>>
>> I agree with caution in trying to change anything.
>>
>> "Strategic" is an imprecise term.   In the US, different people have
>> different opinions about which roads are important, depending on where
>> they live and where they want to drive.
>>
>> The tagging scheme is very much the UK system, and has adapations in
>> other countries.  In the US, motorway/interstate is easy, and we more or
>> less have primary for US highways, secondary for state highways, and
>> tertiary for the next level of importance (reaching adjacent population
>> centers).
>>
>> In the US, "trunk" is fairly well defined.  It's a road that is
>> substantially more than a regular highway in that it has some aspects of
>> a motorway.  To be "motorway" (interstate class), the road needs to be
>> divided, multiple lanes, no stoplights, no at-grade intersections, with
>> controlled access.  To be trunk, the road has to be part way to that
>> standard.  So that means that almost all trunks are divided with
>> multiple lanes in each direction, but they typically have some
>> intersections (every few miles to maybe every mile), and may have some
>> but not a lot of non-ramp access.  They often have narrower lanes than
>> Interstate specifications allow.
>>
>> Around me, the poster child for trunk is Route 2.  It's the second most
>> important east-west road in Massachusetts,, and in many places has two
>> lanes each way, is divided, and has occasional farmstands and roads on
>> the edge, but fairly few.  Lights (and one rotary) are at least a mile
>> apart, and sometimes 5ish miles apart.  But, way out west, it is no
>> longer trunk - it's just ~Main street, undivided, one lane each way,
>> lights, houses.  There it's highway=primary, because it's still a key
>> route, as important as a US highway.  In some places it meets motorway
>> specs and is tagged as such.
>>
>> Calling a regular highway trunk, when it should be secondary or primary
>> would defeat the purpose of trunk, which is to identify roads that feel
>> intermediate between regular US highway and Interstate.   We don't have
>> any formal designation between US highway and Interstate.
>>
>> In addition, there's history of people wanting to retag highways to
>> match their own view of these tags, and many others being unhappy about
>> this.  This is hugely important in OSM, which is about a group of people
>> cooperating to improve the map.
>>
>> > Are you actually sure there is a problem to be solved? Do you have
>> > examples of inappropriate or inconsistent use of highway=trunk?
>>
>> That's a very good question.   Certainly I find cases where roads are
>> over or under tagged, and as long as it's occasional, I just fix them to
>> match the norms of the larger surrounding area.   This is very different
>> from trying to make large-scale changes in what the tags mean.
>>
>> Perhaps the OPs could rephrase the discussion in terms of what seems
>> wrong with actual tagging and how that impacts users of the database
>> (not any particular render :-).
>>
>> All that said, a problem in OSM is the blurring of road classification
>> and road characteristics.  But that partially r

Re: [OSM-talk] An import in New Zealand, assistance requested

[Marc Gemis]

Isn't this something for the Data Working Group: d...@osmfoundation.org ?


regards

m

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 1:10 AM, Robin Paulson  wrote:
> Before I ask for assistance, please note this: I've already brought
> this up on osm-imports and got nowhere useful.
>
> There are a number of users in NZ doing mass imports of building data
> in Auckland (I estimate 500,000 buildings), while wilfully ignoring
> community guidelines.
>
> I have asked numerous times for those doing the imports to stop and
> follow the notes on the imports page. There is no wiki page, no
> discussion on osm-imports, only vague references to a tool called
> linz2osm and responses of "Oh, I thought everything had been OK'd
> already, we discussed it on a local (google groups) mailing list".
> Sometimes they stop for a while and then restart some time later,
> maybe hoping no-one will notice. I hear there are other imports too,
> one of the importers offhand mentioned a mass import of waterways,
> also with no wiki page, discussion or outside involvement.
>
> I bring it up here, because nobody subscribed to osm-imports appears
> willing to back up these requests, to say to the importers that they
> should follow the guidelines. A number of the importers are subscribed
> to the osm-imports and osm-talk lists, but are strangely quiet when I
> mention this request to stop and do things with community involvement.
>
> --
> robin
>
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[OSM-talk] Mapper of the month series

[Marc Gemis]

As you might now, the Belgian community has a series of interviews
with mappers from all over the world. This time we have a Canadian:
Jamie Nadeau

en: http://www.osm.be/2017/07/18/en-motm-jamie_nadeau.html
fr: http://www.osm.be/2017/07/18/fr-motm-jamie_nadeau.html
nl: http://www.osm.be/2017/07/18/nl-motm-jamie_nadeau.html

You can find out more about this project and all previous interviews on
http://www.osm.be/2017/01/06/en-project-motm.html

regards

m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] "NRCS basic OSM training" - low quality changesets in Nepal

[Marc Gemis]

So Warin's proposal should use +, not dot. With plus you can append
anything, with dot the other characters should remain the same.

m

Op 23 jun. 2017 00:54 schreef "Éric Gillet" :

2017-06-23 0:34 GMT+02:00 Nicolás Alvarez :

> > Ben .. you could try, say, bdiscoe@gmail.com and
> bdiscoe.old...@gmail.com - they should both end up in you gmail account.
>
> Are you saying that if anyone emails nicolas.whate...@gmail.com it will
> reach me? That... doesn't sound right.
>

Please check out this link

.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Street Complete

[Marc Gemis]

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 12:03 AM, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> If you promote an editor that affects OSM data, you need to be responsive to
> the OSM community. That means monitoring the communication channels favoured
> by the OSM community and being prepared to respond to them. You cannot just
> decide upon your preferred tracker and refuse to listen to concerns
> elsewhere.

A full time job to monitor mailing lists, fora, irc, facebook, slack,
riot, ... :-) I wouldn't know what is the favourite channel of the OSM
communtity.
and don't forget to do that in tens of languages because complaints
are often done on local channels. I've seen this particular tool being
discussed e.g. on the German and Dutch forum.

The author of this tool is on this mailing list, but were are e.g. the
OsmAnd developers ? With some luck you can only find them on their
Google group, or Github. Or the JOSM developers?

Maybe we should inform both developers and mappers better where they
can meet each other.

regards

m.

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 12:03 AM, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> Bas Couwenberg wrote:
>> On 06/02/2017 03:43 PM, Chris Hill wrote:
>> > I also object to people who provide software for OSM, used by OSM
>> > community members but who must use Github to raise a problem. Let
>> > the authors add the issue to github it it suits them.
>>
>> You apparently have no clue how software development works. I
>> suggest you stick to paper and pen based systems, if you object to using
>> issue trackers for software projects.
>
> No. OSM is not a software project, it's a community project.
>
> If you promote an editor that affects OSM data, you need to be responsive to
> the OSM community. That means monitoring the communication channels favoured
> by the OSM community and being prepared to respond to them. You cannot just
> decide upon your preferred tracker and refuse to listen to concerns
> elsewhere.
>
> Chris has a better idea of how OSM editing works than you appear to, and I
> can say that with some certainty having maintained the default osm.org
> editor from 2007 to 2013.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Street-Complete-tp5897501p5897529.html
> Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Street Complete

[Marc Gemis]

Assuming the author(s) of the app is on this list. The app was
mentioned for the first time on the forum (perhaps here [1]), so the
author might be more familiar with that communication channel.

m.

[1] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=56582  (December 1, 2016)

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Clifford Snow  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 7:36 AM, Sebastiaan Couwenberg 
> wrote:
>>
>> This list is the wrong place to get improvements into StreetComplete, it
>> has it's own issue tracker:
>
>
> This list is a good place to discuss shortcoming of external apps and how
> they affects OSM.
>
>
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Time-based attributes

[Marc Gemis]

There is an old proposal:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/temporary
I guess without any support from data consumers.

m.

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 8:59 AM, MonkZ  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> are there things like attribute values that change over time?
>
> Like this, to indicate a value changes in the future:
>
> highway=residential
> highway:timebased=until:2017-06-22:construction
>
> or
>
> highway=construction
> highway:timebased=after:2017-06-22:residential
>
> or even in intervals:
>
> highway=residential
> highway:timebased=interval:2017-06-07:2017-06-22:construction
>
> of course it should not be restricted to highway tags - but it could
> pose as an example.
>
> Regards,
> MonkZ
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Revisiting traffic control and traffic calming

[Marc Gemis]

ok, multiple from in a relation will solve this.
Isn't it a problem that some "from"s do not end in some "intersection"s ?

On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 1:28 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 8:20 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>> >
>> >> to: the collection of ways one can travel to after stopping/giving
>> >> way/waiting for traffic signal. This would include the from way so
>> >> u-turns have to obey the sign/signal as well.
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes.  At a minimum, a stop, give_way, traffic_signals or traffic_calming
>> > relation would have 1 from, 1 intersection and 1 to.
>>
>> Does that mean that for the examples on
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtraffic_signals with
>> at least 1 dual carriage way, one will need 4 relations ?
>
>
> Simplest case, traffic signal impacts all movements, dual carriageway
> north-south, single-carriageway east-west, you would have 1 relation with
> four from, four to, and two intersection roles.
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Revisiting traffic control and traffic calming

[Marc Gemis]

On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 8:20 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>> to: the collection of ways one can travel to after stopping/giving
>> way/waiting for traffic signal. This would include the from way so
>> u-turns have to obey the sign/signal as well.
>
>
> Yes.  At a minimum, a stop, give_way, traffic_signals or traffic_calming
> relation would have 1 from, 1 intersection and 1 to.

Does that mean that for the examples on
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtraffic_signals with
at least 1 dual carriage way, one will need 4 relations ?

m

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Re: [OSM-talk] Revisiting traffic control and traffic calming

[Marc Gemis]

So would a stop sign / give way sign /traffic signal then be mapped as

stop_position: node where on the street does one have to stop/give
way/wait for traffic signal
sign : node (optional) the exact location of the sign
from: the way one is following to which the action has to be applied
(is this needed ?)
intersection: the node of the intersection for which the sign/signal holds
to: the collection of ways one can travel to after stopping/giving
way/waiting for traffic signal. This would include the from way so
u-turns have to obey the sign/signal as well.

In general the to collection will be all ways leaving the
intersection, except for cases where right turns do not have to obey
the traffic signal, or where a right turn is give way and left +
straight ahead is stop.

is this how you see the relation ? Could it be simplified for the most
common case that the sign/traffic signal applies to all directions one
can travel ?
what in case there is a turn restriction at the intersection ? Does
the to-collection of the stop sign also have to include prohibited
turns ?

m.

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 10:28 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 7 May 2017 01:57:54 -0500
>> Paul Johnson  wrote:
>>
>> > I think it's time that we seriously reconsider how stop signs, yield
>> > signs and traffic calming devices are handled in all but the most
>> > simple (all approaches to the affected node apply) cases. [..] I'm
>> > thinking it's time to start mapping this similar to how we handle
>> > enforcement and turn restrictions, ie, with relations, for all but
>> > the simplest of cases, especially since the whole forward/backward
>> > direction=* thing is nonapplicable to nodes by design.
>>
>> Do you have in mind something like
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:enforcement ?
>>
>> From the points of view of edition and data modeling, I believe that it
>> is the way forward.
>
>
> Yes, precisely.  It's at least a good starting point.
>
>>
>> From the point of view of data consumers, it requires grokking
>> relations - which is currently not common. Would that be a reason not
>> to choose that method ?
>
>
> I don't think so.  I consider Osmand to be the reference implementation for
> mobile navigation based off OSM data and it definitely understands
> enforcement relations.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Finding duplicate cycleways

[Marc Gemis]

This is different view than what is described in the Danish page. I
seen several cases where people treat curbs/kerbs differently from
other barriers.
I have also read in previous discussion that people oppose separate
OSM ways for reasons such complexity and navigation. The complexity
mainly follows from the problem to properly connect the separate ways
with way for the cars at crossings.

I understand both sides and find it hard to decide which is the best
way to tag/map.

I do have a question on route relations for pedestrians and separate
sidewalks, but this seems off topic here (talking about cycleways).

m.

On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:14 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 7:58 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>>
>> Just curious, do you apply the same arguments to map separate
>> sidewalks and sidewalks separate from cycle ways ? Or are there
>> reasons to treat sidewalk differently ?
>
>
> Yes, if it's separated by a curb or median from the rest of the street.
> Otherwise I'll do sidewalk=left|right|both if it's just painted on.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Finding duplicate cycleways

[Marc Gemis]

Just curious, do you apply the same arguments to map separate
sidewalks and sidewalks separate from cycle ways ? Or are there
reasons to treat sidewalk differently ?

m

On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
> 2017-04-27 9:19 GMT+02:00 joost schouppe :
>>
>> So not all of the cases are an error, but many of them.
>
>
>
> I would like to come to a common agreement and document that
> highway=cycleway on distinct geometry is preferable to having just a
> cycleway=track attribute on a road. In the past some of the separate
> cycleways I had mapped have been deleted in favor of attributes on the road.
> The latter is an inferior representation (IMHO) because:
>
> 1. it makes it harder to add more attributes to the cycleway (including
> maxspeed, surface, turn restrictions, width, access restrictions)
>
> 2. it makes it unclear or at least much more error prone to determine which
> attributes of the road also belong to the cycleway (and vice versa)
>
> 3. it removes the geometric details (position, shape, unclear position of
> things between (or not) the cycleway and the road like grass, guard rails,
> telephone booths, poles, crossings between driveways, etc.)
>
> Therefore I believe we should recommend that fixing duplicates as of this
> thread should be done by removing the attribute cycleway=track, not deleting
> the highway=cycleway.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Finding duplicate cycleways

[Marc Gemis]

In some countries you have to place bicycle=use_sidepath on the main
road when you map a separate cycleway.  This is done to indicate that
you are supposed to ride on the cycleway, but may use the main road to
access e.g. houses on the opposite side.
In such a case it make no sense to also keep cycleway=track I think,
as this is imposed by the bicycle=use_sidepath tag.

m.

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 9:39 AM, Michael Andersen  wrote:
> On onsdag den 26. april 2017 07.22.27 CEST Ture Pålsson wrote:
>> > 25 apr. 2017 kl. 21:52 skrev Martin Koppenhoefer :
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > sent from a phone
>> >
>> > On 25. Apr 2017, at 19:07, Tobias Zwick  > wrote:
>> >> I would say so, as long as there are not in reality two cycleways (see
>> >> above). Wouldn't you?
>> >
>> > it depends on the meaning/reading. I believe cycleway=track is bad anyway,
>> > it's ok for preliminary mapping but fails when it comes to […]
>> On a side note, around where I live I see quite a few cycleways mapped as
>> their own ways, tagged highway=cycleway,cycleway=track. Does the
>> cycleway=track mean anything in this context (and if so: what?) or is it a
>> mapping error?
>
> In that context it's a mistake. Also in my opinion cycleway=track is not bad.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Disputed border between Greece and Turkey near Imia/Kardak in the Aegean Sea (was: Re: [Geocoding] Boundries of Kardak Islands)

[Marc Gemis]

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 6:39 AM, David Marchal  wrote:
> If I correctly remember, in such cases, both point of views should be used;
> in this case, two boundary segments should be dragged: one including the
> islets with Greece, and the other one including them with Turkey.

The rule is that border in OSM is where you have to show your passport
to the customs. Or where the barbed wire stands, or  whatever on the
ground fact indicates the presence of a border. The French-Italian
border which overlaps on the Mont-Blanc is not the preferred way
AFAIK.

m.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Lots of small copies of existing relations

[Marc Gemis]

For the changeset discussion:

go to

http://www.hdyc.neis-one.org/?


(fill in your osm name behind the question mark).

there you find links behind "Changeset discussions:" and "Discussed
changesets". The former is for the ones you participated in, the
latter for comments on your own changesets.

m.

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 8:10 PM, Maarten Deen  wrote:
> I am working on bus routes and regularly download a whole area worth of bus
> routes with Overpass. What I see quite frequently is that some edit is done
> and in the aftermath a lot of copies of a busroute have been created with
> just a few (sometimes just one) member.
> These all seem to be in error, just copies of an existing relation with a
> very small subset of the members.
> Just now I'm noticing relations 6750658, 6750656, 6750655, 6750654, 6750653,
> 6750652, 6750651, 6750650, 6750649, 6750648, all AVV 402 in one direction or
> the other. Only relation 6750655 seems legit, the rest have 1 to 3 members.
> I have written a comment in the changeset (44056226), but I have done this
> before with no reaction.
> I notice that the edit was done with iD. Is there a known problem with iD
> that it generates copies of relations while editing? Or does this have to be
> a deliberate action in iD (I don't know iD at all).
>
> BTW: is there an overview of which changesets I've made a comment to?
>
> Regards,
> Maarten
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia/Wikidata admins cleanup

[Marc Gemis]

I'm now trying to clean up the wikidata / wikipedia tags on
administrative boundaries in Belgium. One of the problems seems that
nyuriks automatically (?) added  wikidata tags [1] without making sure
the wikipedia tags were placed correctly in OSM.

And now that same person asks to help him clean up the duplicates :-)
Maybe it was the only way to get us to clean up the wikipedia tags ?

regards

m

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44128900

On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:43 PM, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
> * I think MapRoulette is actually the tool we should use to fix these
> issues. I am not yet sure how to build an OT query that gets relations for
> the challenge, but this approach should automate the whole process. Any
> ideas?
> https://github.com/maproulette/maproulette2/issues/259
>
> * Wikidata tags are already being auto-added. Adding Wikipedia tag in iD
> editor automatically inserts the matching Wikidata tag - and I seriously
> doubt there are many editors who verify Wikidata ID, or even notice that it
> got auto-added. Relying on the "trickling effect" to ensure quality seems
> bad -- quality is much better ensured by automated rule based validations,
> and either autofix if obvious, or add them to MapRoulette for fixing by
> humans.  Humans are a VERY expensive resource, lets use it only when
> necessary.
>
> * Wikidata ID does not have to be 1:1 with OSM.  A Wikidata ID can be
> thought of as a more permanent ID for a Wikipedia title. So adding it simply
> locks WP title in place, nothing more.  Yet, Wikidata could, in theory, be
> more precise. Instead of Wikidata that describes "civil and historical
> perish" (as a matching WP article), there could be a more precise "civil
> only" wikidata item. Most of the time, there is no additional item, and more
> work is needed to possibly create those in WD, and to decide how to link
> between them. In the mean time, having an ID pointing to the "mixed" item is
> ok - it already provides a huge benefit for analyzing, cross-linking, and
> quality assessment. And the mixed item links to the proper Wikipedia
> articles, which was the original goal.
>
> * By far the biggest issue I discovered was numerous "auto-injected"
> Wikipedia titles. It seems people mindlessly copied the object's title into
> the wikipedia tag, without even checking if the article exists, or if it's
> even about a place or something else. Adding Wikidata tag is a huge
> advantage as we now can quickly evaluate the relevance (item needs to be
> "instance of/subclass of" a location. This was never possible with just a
> text title.  It would be amazing to clone/integrate Wikidata database into
> Overpass-Turbo, allowing much more complex validations.
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 11:12 AM Christoph Hormann 
> wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday 04 January 2017, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Then you'd need to change the tag definition on the wiki to reflect
>> > > that (and to explain what these circumstances are).
>> >
>> > You - and thus I - were talking about "Wikidata values", now you're
>> > talking about a single tag. Which is it, please?
>>
>> I am sorry - OSM terminology can be somewhat ambigous here.  With tag
>> definition i mean the definition of the meaning of a certain tag, i.e.
>> what it is supposed to mean when an OSM feature has the tag wikidata=x.
>> This should be documented on the OSM wiki in a way that reflects actual
>> mapping practice and which is verifiable for mappers.
>>
>> With 'wikidata values' i was referring to the actual values that exist
>> for the wikidata key in our database.
>>
>> > And where is the link I requested?
>>
>> I considered that a rhetorical question.  Taginfo gives you usage
>> statistics for the values used:
>>
>> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=wikidata#values
>>
>> --
>> Christoph Hormann
>> http://www.imagico.de/
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Spoken street names

[Marc Gemis]

There is also Mapfactor Navigator [1], they do have a free version as
well.I didn't like their "announcements" for highway exists as much as
OsmAnd's.

m

[1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapfactor.navigator&hl=en

p.s. I find spoken street names not so interesting. In Belgium (and
many countries around it) the street names are only indicated within
the street itself, so after you made the turn. It would be better if
the destination tags where spoken all the time, not only on
higways/motorways.

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Re: [OSM-talk] combining nodes with ways

[Marc Gemis]

But then you remove the node. I had the impression the OP wanted to
keep the POI node, but copy/move address information onto the
building.
You can easily copy all tags from one object to another, (select
first, select target, shift-R), but then you also copy the POI tags,
not only the address info.

m.

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Clifford Snow  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 4:42 AM, john whelan  wrote:
>>
>> Not quite what I'm looking for.  The building is defined as an area but
>> often has no address information, within the building are a number of nodes
>> one or more of which has address information which is valid for the entire
>> building.  So what I'm interested in is way to either move the tags to the
>> building way or copy the tags to the building way or area.  The entire City
>> has some 300,000 buildings so the volume to be done is fairly high and I'd
>> like to do it in a fairly manual way using JOSM.
>
>
> A manual method with JOSM would be to use the Replace Geometry tool found in
> the plugin UtilsPlugin2.
>
> Clifford
>
>
> --
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> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] combining nodes with ways

[Marc Gemis]

As far as I know you cannot know the extend of "wonderland" until you
asked all people in Wonderland what their postcode is. "Wonderland" or
ZIP-code "area" is only defined by the post, and does not match any
administrative boundary. This is the case for Canada, US and UK.
Unlike Belgium or Germany were (in most cases) you know the postal
code of a town as soon as you know 1 postal code for a house in that
town.
So it is not sufficient to ask 1 person in 1 street what there postal
code is, you have to ask them all before .

m

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Frank Villaro-Dixon
 wrote:
> On 16-08-11 09:55:03, john whelan, wrote 5.8K characters saying:

 In Canada Postal Codes are not open data so the only way they can be
 used is on an individual address.
>>>
>>> I don't understand. What does it make that they are not open data ? One
>>> could know that all of their village has the same postcode, so they could
>>> simply add a addr:postcode=xxx to their village boundary ?
>>
>>
>> It's to do with where you get the information from.  If you knock on the
>> door of every address and ask every one their postcode then it is
>> acceptable to map it.  If you look it up on the Canada Post web site then
>> you got taken too court.
>
> Personally, I know the postcodes of all of my adjacent villages and I've
> never looked-it up on any website. You "just know" from personal knowledge,
> conversation, local stores. Of course I haven't surveyed all the houses, but
> you suppose the postcode to be true for all the houses of the village.
>
> I mean, a friend could tell me: "Hey, send me a postcard; I live in
> wonderland and my postcode is 1337", then I would think: "Okay, the postcode
> for wonderland is 1337". What's wrong/illegal/not acceptable with that ?
>
> It's empiric and not "real science", but it works.
>
>
> --
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> What is a Velomobile ?   www.sans-essence.eu
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Re: [OSM-talk] Building a free/open reviews community w/ OSM support

[Marc Gemis]

On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 10:52 PM, Erik Moeller  wrote:
>> - add an external ID to OSM. This would be analogue to the current wikidata
>> tag.

It's better not to add external IDs to OSM. It would be OK if there is
only 1 project in the world that would do this, but if every pet
project will start doing this ...
Also, in general, there is no way for contributors to verify the IDs
added by third parties, which makes it hard to verify whether they are
still valid.
Furthermore there is no guarantee that someone might remove this tag.
So you will need a fallback method anyway.

So please do not use this method


regards

m

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Re: [OSM-talk] Viewing pre-redaction OSM tiles?

[Marc Gemis]

Do you mean Martijn van Excel's "Now and Then" ?
https://mvexel.github.io/thenandnow/#10/52.2644/5.2899
It does has a slider, but it compares 2007 with now.

regards

m

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 9:42 PM, Michał Brzozowski  wrote:
> I am not. I just don't want to say "guilty" prematurely. It's a system
> for traffic information (public-facing site) and traffic control built
> by some neighboring cities.
>
> Michał
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
>  wrote:
>>
>> 2016-07-14 21:11 GMT+02:00 Michał Brzozowski :
>>>
>>> No. They render maps on their own and also FOSM data seem not to be
>>> *just* before the redaction (am I right? There are no changes I made
>>> in May 2012)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> maybe you are talking about Apple maps? They use both, pre-redaction
>> cc-by-sa data and also ODbl data.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Guides to improve navigation data in OpenStreetMap

[Marc Gemis]

Please read http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes, which describes
the ":lanes"- subkey. This page states:

"Please be aware that this extension covers all kinds of lanes for all
kind of vehicles and is not restricted to motorized traffic."

this means that all turn:lanes, change:lanes, access:lanes,
forward:lanes, backward:lanes, etc. should count ALL lanes. Only the
lanes-tag on its own count the lanes for motorized traffic.
BTW, this is often neglected by QA tools that try to compare the sum
of forward and backward lanes with the number in the lanes tag.

regards

m

On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 10:35 AM, Abhishek Saikia
 wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> The definition of a lane as per http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes
> is:
>
>> The lanes=* key should be used to specify the total number of traffic
>> lanes a road has which are available to motorised traffic wider than a motor
>> cycle.
>
> For the guide, we are extending the same definition to turn:lanes. The wiki
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn:lanes makes no mention of how to
> incorporate cycles and non motorized vehicle into this tag. These are still
> open questions that should be discussed by the community.
>
> Philip, if you have a particular example of how to tag turn lanes for buses,
> we will incorporate it into the guide.
>
> Do keep giving more feedback.
>
> Regards,
> Abhishek
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>>
>> Really, any restricted lane should be in the total lane count and have the
>> appropriate lane permissions assigned.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 11:46 AM, Philip Barnes 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, 2016-03-10 at 11:24 -0600, Paul Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 8:56 AM, Abhishek Saikia
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Marc,
>>>
>>> Thank you for the kind words and prompt feedback. `turn:lanes` are
>>> exclusively for vehicles and as per discussion with the OSRM team here:
>>> https://github.com/Project-OSRM/osrm-backend/issues/2048, we are at present
>>> ignoring adding cycle lanes during `turn:lanes` mapping.
>>> marc.ge...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Bicycles are vehicles in most countries, and bike lanes do pose problems
>>> for correct lane guidance, particularly in areas where these lanes are full
>>> width instead of being a door-zone buffer.
>>>
>>>
>>> You will also need to consider bus lanes as well.
>>>
>>> Phil (trigpoint)
>>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Guides to improve navigation data in OpenStreetMap

[Marc Gemis]

Thanks for writing this nice guide.

Everything becomes more complex when there are cycle lanes involved.
Maybe you could spend a chapter on that as well ?
I'm thinking about turn:lanes that should take into account the cycle
lanes, as well as permissions for the different lanes in those cases.

Also dedicated bus (or psv) lanes makes the mapping harder.

regards

m


On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Abhishek Saikia
 wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> As a part of a recent push to improve OpenStreetMap navigation data, our
> team at Mapbox started collaborating documentation to create a comprehensive
> wiki on " Guides to improve navigation data in OpenStreetMap". This mapping
> guide is still not complete and the team intends to keep on adding new
> features to the guide  and make it more comprehensive so that it can be a
> reference to anyone who wants to contribute navigation data on
> OpenStreetMap. It will be helpful and great if the community can go through
> the guide and give their valuable feedback.
>
> Regards,
>
> Abhishek
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

[Marc Gemis]

Yeah, just created a dedicated OSM account and start adding points and
ways, who cares that they have that password. It does have to be your
normal OSM account with "serious" password.

My point is that it might attract people that just upload data without
any benefit to OSM (wrong data or data that is added in many
changetsets (because that determines the ranking) instead of 1, as you
would normally do..
You can even write a script that creates a point in one changeset and
deletes it in another. Over and over again.

I fear that we might have to do more QA when this gets widely known.
I'm not thinking about honest mappers here, just about people that
misuse the system to earn bitcoins.

regards

m

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:20:05 -0300
> Nicolás Alvarez  wrote:
>
>> The reason why I didn't try this yet is that they unnecessarily ask
>> me for my OSM *password* when signing up. There are much better ways
>> to verify the account...
>
> "We will give you money once you will share your password" sounds like a
> standard unimaginative scam.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

[Marc Gemis]

So you will start making changesets where you move points  one pixel
at the time to their final position ?  (just to increase the number of
changesets) :-)

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 5:17 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>>
>> If I understand the discussion on [1] correctly OsmAnd will reward
>> mappers with bitcoins. The bitcoins seem to be paid via a formula
>> based on the number of changesets you upload.
>>
>> I think this is a bad idea, (just like Jack Burke illustrates with the
>> Dilbert strips in the linked topic).
>> What do you think about this ? How should we deal with this ?
>
>
> I agree this could be a QA disaster, but, if it gives me enough to live on,
> I'd totally dig it.

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[OSM-talk] OsmAnd financially rewarding mappers

[Marc Gemis]

If I understand the discussion on [1] correctly OsmAnd will reward
mappers with bitcoins. The bitcoins seem to be paid via a formula
based on the number of changesets you upload.

I think this is a bad idea, (just like Jack Burke illustrates with the
Dilbert strips in the linked topic).
What do you think about this ? How should we deal with this ?


regards

m






[1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/osmand/x2XyIOtRBGE

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Re: [OSM-talk] Need some help

[Marc Gemis]

Coinmap was announced a long time ago on the forum: [1]


A search on Google for "Coinmap OSM" returns as first entry:

"
coinmap

https://coinmap.org/

By subscribing, you agree with the terms of Mailchimp Privacy Policy.
Copyright © SatoshiLabs. All Rights Reserved. Portions of data ©
OpenStreetMap ...
"

so the copyright might be hidden somewhere in the html of the page.


And isn't this the project that caused a lot of problems because the users
started adding all kind of services/shops/companies without a physical
presence to the OSM data ? [2]


[1] http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=20859 (April 14, 2013)
[2] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2014-May/069761.html




On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Dave F  wrote:

> Not 100% sure, but from a quick check it seems they're using the tag data
> as well: currency:XBT & payment:bitcoin in my area.
>
> Dave F.
>
> On 11/02/2016 00:53, Ian Dees wrote:
>
> When you have a question about where the map data comes from, open up your
> browser's developer tools and look at the network tab. When you pan the map
> around it will tell you what server the tiles are getting downloaded from.
>
> In this case, an example tile URL is:
> https://cartodb-basemaps-b.global.ssl.fastly.net/light_all/9/277/174.png
>
> So these are using CartoDB basemaps. I think CartoDB does use OSM data for
> basemaps, but it's definitely an older set of data.
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 7:45 PM, Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
>
>> Looks like only the first page at the bottom.
>>
>> The roads in my area are not current.
>>
>> Have you emailed the contact, coin...@satoshilabs.com?
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Hans De Kryger <
>> hans.dekryge...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Found a website i'm quite sure uses osm, but they don't show anywhere on
>>> the page about who the map data belongs to.
>>>
>>> https://coinmap.org
>>>
>>> *Regards,*
>>> *Hans*
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
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>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[Marc Gemis]

I wonder whether this some expression in German that is translated
literally in English.

m.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 11:06 PM, Dave F  wrote:
> Hi
>
> So often I'm put off from delving further into OSM & its uses by the
> confusing nature of it's wiki pages.
>
> A simple example:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API/Overpass_QL#Attic_data_.28.22date.22.29
>
> Why is it headed as 'Attic Data'? Why is there no explanation of it's
> meaning? After too much time using google I find it means old information.
> Why not say that? Wouldn't 'historical snapshot' be a bit clearer?
>
> Please remember wiki/help pages are mainly read by inexperienced users who
> aren't fully aware of all the latest hip language (that often goes out of
> fashion 6 months later).
>
> Please keep all wiki pages plain & simple.
>
> Cheers
> Dave F
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal to close newbies@ list

[Marc Gemis]

In Belgium and The Netherlands, there are people that try to contact
every new mapper via a personal message. This message includes a list
of sources where the mapper can ask for help. The message is in the
language of the mapper (Dutch or French). Belgian mappers get informed
about the Belgian mailing list, The Dutch mappers about the forum.

Many newbies are better served by a local mailing list/forum, in their
own language (although this is sometimes a problem in a country with 3
official languages like Belgium).


regards

m


On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 10:57 PM, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> It's probably a reasonable suggestion to close the newbies@osm down for lack
> of use. What concerns me is where the the newbies going? Is there any data
> to suggest that they are being served on the forum? A quick look at the
> section "Questions and Answers" would indicate that people are using the
> forum. Since I've never participated in the forum (I prefer a mailing list)
> can those who do participate let us know how well they feel newbies are
> being served there?
>
> Clifford
>
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Rob Nickerson 
> wrote:
>>
>> On 11 January 2016 at 19:22, Martin Koppenhoefer 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> > Am 11.01.2016 um 19:20 schrieb Rob Nickerson
>>> > :
>>> >
>>> > Would be happy to see a few other low use mailing lists closed.
>>>
>>>
>>> why?
>>
>>
>> Because they are not benefiting the community but they are a time hog for
>> anyone who wants to interact with the community. For example, I am currently
>> helping to set up a UK group. To get started we needed to contact as many
>> people as possible to raise awareness of this aim. A fragmented set of
>> communication options makes this harder.
>>
>> My analogy with retail products: Competition is good, but sometimes I feel
>> manufactures flood the market so much that it is impossible for the end user
>> to make an informed decision (not helped by retailers often not providing
>> good explanations).
>>
>> It would be nice to see a review of our communication channels (what
>> works, what doesn't) but the CWG isn't resourced to do that right now.
>>
>> Rob
>>
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>
>
>
> --
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is there a OSM map viewer program to dynamically view OSM data?

[Marc Gemis]

oops, I missed the "standalone" part in your message


On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 5:26 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> http://www.openpoimap.org
> http://www.openlinkmap.org
> http://www.flosm.de/en/POI-map.html
>
> or look at the complete list at
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM-based_services
>
> regards
>
> m
>
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 3:58 AM, Wuzzy  wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>> I was wondering if there is some standalone application (preferable for
>> PC) to view OSM data as a map, but dynamically and locally (not
>> from some random computer on the Internet) rendered.
>>
>> We already have a large number of websites which show OSM data in all
>> sorts of different styles and this is pretty cool. But I think all of
>> them do not show OSM in its full glory, and they are all tailored to
>> a specific use case.
>> The www.openstreetmap.org style is already pretty nice IMO but this is
>> of course not useful for all use cases.
>>
>> Also most of the websites them use a pre-rendered “base layer” and just
>> put symbols on top of that. This is not what I want.
>> Therefore, the KDE program “Marble” does not count. It is able to show
>> OSM, but it's just the pre-rendered default layers of
>> www.openstreetmap.org.
>> JOSM kinda does what I want, but it is obviously not tailored towards
>> *viewing* map data for everyday usage.
>>
>> What I want is an application which renders OSM data directly and based
>> on configurable user settings, i.e. switching on and off certain
>> features (like country borders) is as simple as clicking a checkbox.
>>
>> As an analogy, Google Earth has such a feature where you can toggle
>> some map features, but it is not based on OSM, obviously and also it is
>> rather limited in that sense.
>>
>> So I wonder, is there already such a tool which has such features? Or
>> at least a *similar* tool. It would be very cool if the tool can render
>> from OSM data directly, but if some manual conversion would be needed,
>> that would be okay.
>>
>> I should give some examples:
>> The program could have a checkbox somewhere to toggle country borders.
>> So you click the checkbox and they disappear. Or you could have a map
>> where only lanterns or whatever are displayed. Or a map where only the
>> surface or landuse types are rendered. Etc. etc. Everything should be
>> created dynamically.
>>
>> The reason why I am looking for such a tool is because I think it would
>> be really useful in many aspects.
>>
>> In case no such program exists, I wonder if there has been made any
>> attempt to create such a program (at least).
>>
>> --
>> Wuzzy
>> XMPP: wuz...@jabber.ccc.de
>> E-Mail: wuz...@mail.ru
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is there a OSM map viewer program to dynamically view OSM data?

[Marc Gemis]

http://www.openpoimap.org
http://www.openlinkmap.org
http://www.flosm.de/en/POI-map.html

or look at the complete list at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM-based_services

regards

m

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 3:58 AM, Wuzzy  wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I was wondering if there is some standalone application (preferable for
> PC) to view OSM data as a map, but dynamically and locally (not
> from some random computer on the Internet) rendered.
>
> We already have a large number of websites which show OSM data in all
> sorts of different styles and this is pretty cool. But I think all of
> them do not show OSM in its full glory, and they are all tailored to
> a specific use case.
> The www.openstreetmap.org style is already pretty nice IMO but this is
> of course not useful for all use cases.
>
> Also most of the websites them use a pre-rendered “base layer” and just
> put symbols on top of that. This is not what I want.
> Therefore, the KDE program “Marble” does not count. It is able to show
> OSM, but it's just the pre-rendered default layers of
> www.openstreetmap.org.
> JOSM kinda does what I want, but it is obviously not tailored towards
> *viewing* map data for everyday usage.
>
> What I want is an application which renders OSM data directly and based
> on configurable user settings, i.e. switching on and off certain
> features (like country borders) is as simple as clicking a checkbox.
>
> As an analogy, Google Earth has such a feature where you can toggle
> some map features, but it is not based on OSM, obviously and also it is
> rather limited in that sense.
>
> So I wonder, is there already such a tool which has such features? Or
> at least a *similar* tool. It would be very cool if the tool can render
> from OSM data directly, but if some manual conversion would be needed,
> that would be okay.
>
> I should give some examples:
> The program could have a checkbox somewhere to toggle country borders.
> So you click the checkbox and they disappear. Or you could have a map
> where only lanterns or whatever are displayed. Or a map where only the
> surface or landuse types are rendered. Etc. etc. Everything should be
> created dynamically.
>
> The reason why I am looking for such a tool is because I think it would
> be really useful in many aspects.
>
> In case no such program exists, I wonder if there has been made any
> attempt to create such a program (at least).
>
> --
> Wuzzy
> XMPP: wuz...@jabber.ccc.de
> E-Mail: wuz...@mail.ru
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Not sure what to think

[Marc Gemis]

What about changeset comments with "google" in it ?

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Hans De Kryger
 wrote:
> So i just came across an edit of a user near me that listed the source of
> his edit as (Google Maps Street View) (1)
>
> I have just contacted the user asking for more information about his edit
> and let him know of the the policy of OpenStreetMap not to copy from other
> maps.
>
> So i thought i would search tags (source=google) hoping to find any source
> tagged with the word google anywhere. Assuming there has to be more. Here's
> what i found (2)
> Seems like any others should be addressed.
>
> (1) http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3835343766#map=19/33.85088/-112.10980
> (2) https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=source%3Dgoogle
>
> Regards,
>
> Hans
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/TheDutchMan13
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Abandoned buildings

[Marc Gemis]

As soon as you record the data it is in the database, it doesn't
matter whether it is rendered on the standard map or not.
I think that if you need "stats" on abandoned buildings or shops, that
you will load the data into your own database or a GIS system such as
QGIS, where you can really analyse and visualise the data.
Another quick solution for visualisation would be to use Overpass
Turbo or Overpass in combination with umap.  No need to wait until
others do the work for you :-)


regards

m

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 9:42 PM, John Doe  wrote:
> In my opinion objects with abandoned prefix should be introduced in
> nominatim for searches and in mapnik to see them (with a different render
> obviously).
> OSM can be an important database also for stats about abandoned
> buildings/houses in our cities.
> Some organization (also the public administration) can be interested in
> research and exploitation of these places and OSM can be a great base.
>
> Il 05/Gen/2016 13:29, "Mateusz Konieczny"  ha scritto:
>>
>> On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 00:14:25 +0100
>> John Doe  wrote:
>>
>> > I tagged some abandoned building in my native city with
>> > abandoned:building=yes (as wiki) and the building name but now i can't
>> > search these ones with nominatim (no results) and none of these
>> > appears on mapnik.
>> > Is prefix abandoned before building=yes really correct?
>>
>> "I tagged some abandoned building in my native city with
>> abandoned:building=yes"
>>
>> I think it is mistake. abandoned: prefix makes sense for things like
>> shops where there is a fundamental difference between active shop (POI
>> - it is possible to buy something there or provides some services).
>>
>> abandoned:shop, abandoned:amenity is solely an orientation point.
>>
>> In case of buildings there is no such fundamental difference between
>> used and unused one.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Belgium/Netherlands Boundary Change

[Marc Gemis]

No, the border does not have to be changed yet, although there seems
to be an agreement between both governments

Discussion on Belgian mailing list:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/2016-January/008250.html
On the Dutch Forum: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=53204
As a note: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/275464

regards

m

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Steve Doerr  wrote:
> Just read this article about a territory-swap between The Netherlands and
> Belgium: http://actualite24.info/post/316916
>
> I wonder if this has taken effect yet? It's not reflected in OSM currently.
> I think I'll leave it for the local communities to action.
>
> --
> Steve
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Nominatim weakness

[Marc Gemis]

openlinkmap.org has such a box (search only in current map view). I
assume it is using nominatim for obtaining the data.

regards

m.

On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Stephan Knauss  wrote:
>
>
> On December 24, 2015 11:21:22 AM GMT+01:00, malenki  wrote:
>
>>Because I know of the fallability of men and IT when I search for
>>anything depending on a location I always give the location, too.
>
> Does nominatim support phrases like "nearby"  or "near me"? If we don't pass 
> the current location, it could use the map bounding box.
>
> Stephan
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] What3words

[Marc Gemis]

On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> In my example the party that needs to do the translation from w3w to lat/lon
> would be Amazon, and they will probably be paying w3w for a licence to do
> that.

Wouldn't it be more likely that Amazon would invent their own system
where customers get a mat with some sensors or build-in GPS tracker
(so I can move and take the mat with me) that can be used by the drone
? Why would they rely on a (broken) third-party solution ?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Undiscussed (?) edits removing lesser-used highway=* tags

[Marc Gemis]

GerdP has written me twice about some tagging mistake I made. In one case I
told him about a proposal he was not aware of, and he promptly reverted the
change he had made in the meantime. In both cases we had a nice
conversation via the changeset comments.

Perhaps he did not contact the mapper that added the residential_link
because she/he is no longer active  ?

Anyhow, I can't complain for the above two cases.

regards

m

On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 12:57 AM, Andrew Guertin 
wrote:

> On 11/06/2015 05:01 PM, Andy Townsend wrote:
>
>> Previously there were quite a lot of changeset discussion comments
>> from GerdP asking about odd values:
>>
>> http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions (scroll down a bit)
>>
>
> Ah! That's very good to see!
>
> So perhaps I've overreacted a bit. I now see the problem as GerdP does a
> lot of good work and does typically communicate, but this time didn't
> discuss before deciding the undocumented tags residential_link and
> unclassified_link should be removed, which is a decision that really should
> be made by the community.
>
> So hopefully we can get that discussion happening and get the tags put
> back (if that's the decision).
>
> --Andrew
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering idiosyncrasies

[Marc Gemis]

So you know a bigger landuse area that gets rendered on top of a smaller
one thanks to the layer tag ?
I got this information (not using the layer tag for landuse ordering) from
Matthijs Melissen.

regards

m

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>
>> I was once told by one of the style developers that the layer tag is not
>> used in the standard rendering on osm.org. Only the size of the area's
>> matter.
>>
>
> I can confirm that using a layer tag does impact rendering of landuse.
>
>
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering idiosyncrasies

[Marc Gemis]

I was once told by one of the style developers that the layer tag is not
used in the standard rendering on osm.org. Only the size of the area's
matter.

regards

m

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:49 PM, Ed Loach  wrote:

> Dave asked:
> > > > Is anybody able to explain why the wood on the left renders
> > > > above the school, yet the one to the right, under?
>
> Martin replied:
> > > because areas are sorted by size, bigger is rendered first.
>
> Dave commented:
> > I genuinely can't work out if that's said as a joke.
>
> Take for example landcover-low-zoom layer
>
>
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/project.mml#L103
>
> Ordered by layer (if present, else assume layer=0) then by way_area
>
> Ed
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Marc Gemis]

>
>
> that's the difference between explicit and implicit mapping. If you are
> explicit, you know that it should be like that, if you rely on the absence
> of information / tags you might fall on your nose because the data wasn't
> complete etc.
> For some stuff it might sense to use the "no" to avoid misinterpretations
> by wrong asumptions, e.g. shop=tobacco, sells:cigarettes=yes,
> sells:cigarette_tobacco=no
> or highway=motorway_link, oneway=no.
>
> also: sells:vegetables=only
> sells:cabbage=yes
> sells:carrots=yes
> ...
>
>
>
some shops only sells certain products during certain periods of the year.
All bakeries in Belgium sell chocolate figures during Sinterklaas-period
and chocolate eggs during easter period.
We will need something like "sells:chocolate_easter_eggs:yes @
(easter_period)" OTOH, every Belgian knows that she can buy that in a
bakery in those periods. Do we really need to tag that ? It's common
knowledge (when you're an Belgian).
Also the assortment of fruitcakes and sandwiches is larger during the
weekends.

For Christmas eve or New Years Eve, you might also be able to order
starters. Butchers and bakeries might even become deli's during this period.


What about supermarkets and wine? In Belgium and France it is normal that
they sell wine. Not so in Sweden, where wine is sold via state-operated
shops.
Would it be enough to write shop=supermarket; sells:wine=no ?

regards

m
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Re: [OSM-talk] Traffic Signs

[Marc Gemis]

AFAIK the Fins are already adding all traffic signs, see [1]. The Dutch
made their own preset for JOSM based on the same lib. In Belgium someone
tried the same, but it never really took off.

regards

m

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Finland:Traffic_signs

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 11:23 PM, Hans De Kryger 
wrote:

> I know it's been talked about in the past what the major goals of
> OpenStreetMap are. And i remember there being different opinions on what
> those are, (when Steve Coast mentioned his goal being Addresses) which i
> agree. Addresses are a big future for OSM.
>
> One goal not mention is traffic signs. I think there's a huge potential
> once we have traffic signs all over the world in the database. Ways to tag
> them in the database being besides the point. (Which still needs to be
> addressed) hire did everyone feel about this?
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] running and registering an old osmand version

[Marc Gemis]

While I also believe it is best to contact the OsmAnd devs, I doubt that
the Google group is the best place. I do not see a lot of activity from
them over there. On osmand.net there is a Contact Us link at the bottom . I
hope you have more luck there.

regards

m

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 6:52 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:

>
> IMHO you are approaching this -slightly- wrong.
>
> In general the play store will not offer you apps that will not run on
> your system, so there is on the one hand either something wrong with the
> play store configuration if the version intentionally doesn't work with
> 2.3.6 -> you should be talking to the OsmAnd devs, or, on the other
> hand, you are running in to an unfixed issue with OsmAnd and -> you
> should be talking to the OsmAnd devs.
>
> I believe the best way to contact the OsmAnd devs continues to be via
> their googel group https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/osmand
>
> Simon
>
> Am 25.09.2015 um 18:29 schrieb Olaf Hering:
> > f-droid crashes also. Maybe I will find an older version that works.
> >
> > I was able to install the 1.9, and 1.8 and 1.7 apk packages, but the 2.0
> > already causes a reboot.
> > I think it would be ok to run the 1.x series, but is there a way to get
> > the paid version without f-droid? Obviously the playstore always wants
> > to install the latest.
> >
> > Olaf
> >
> > Am 25.09.2015 um 17:48 schrieb Max:
> >> using the f-droid repository that should be possible to install an old
> >> (full) version.
> >>
> >> On 2015년 09월 26일 00:31, Olaf Hering wrote:
> >>> The current osmand versions causes a system reboot during installation
> >>> on this Motorola Pro+ MB632. This happens with the free and with the
> >>> paid version. Too bad I just bought osmand in Playstore.
> >>>
> >>> Is there a way to install an older version of osmand on this phone?
> >
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Re: [OSM-talk] THIS is the kind of enthusiasm some would reject

[Marc Gemis]

On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:

> Respect to Russ for standing up for his principles in the face of all this
> bullying. Nobody has given a *consistent* answer yet. Why are "former
> railway lines" which are no longer immediately evident on the ground
> forbidden so vehemently in OSM when so many other artefacts from the past
> are not? Old_name, Roman roads, closed pubs, end_date, etc etc. And why are
> some esoteric tags to support a minority interest tolerated and some so
> hotly


perhaps because that are "just" tags and less visible ?

m.
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Re: [OSM-talk] THIS is the kind of enthusiasm some would reject

[Marc Gemis]

On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Dave F.  wrote:

> highway=track, railway=abandoned, that cause problems & is what I'm trying
> to solve


A hiking or cycling map could only show the former, a railway map the
latter.

It is similar to  2 hiking paths following the same road. Which one should
get precedence ? The one I am following :-), but we don't have that kind of
dynamic maps yet.  The best maps draw them with some offset, but they are
rare AFAIK. Most draw them one top of each other.

regards

m.
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