Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping Klong Toey Slums

[Liz Barry]

Hi everyone,
It is inspiring to hear of these projects in Bangkok and Cartagena! <3

Depending on the wind and when the rainy season is about to start in
Bangkok, putting a kite up in the air with a small camera could be the
fastest and most community-engaged / hands-on / accessible / repeatable way
to get aerial imagery:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/learning-news/524907/the-kite-flying-season-in-bangkok

Once you have an aerial photo (by balloon/kite/drone/really long bamboo
pole <https://publiclab.org/wiki/balloon-mapping>:), you can place
(georeference) it in http://mapknitter.org/, then it's one click to loading
that base imagery in any/all of OSM's editors for tracing over.

I copied the grassroots mapping list where there are people to chat with
about DIY aerial imagery for mapping.

Yours,
Liz



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+1 336-269-1539
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On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 6:23 PM, hyan...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> Hi Mishari,
>
> I can share from the experience to mapping slums in Cartagena, Colombia
> with a Latinamerican NGO called TECHO (is not an acronym), plus the last
> steps that you list (a, b, c) we started mapping the past using Bing
> imagery (normally have imagery date); then a small aerial filming company 
> donate
> drone flights <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRRHAgxioZw> to map the
> present.  After that we count double of houses that community leader
> beleive that exists; but using filedpapers on the field we get exact number
> of houses an his conditions
> <https://hyances.carto.com/viz/1607cb08-319c-11e5-868c-0e853d047bba/public_map>
> (like presence of tilts to deal with floods).
>
> Pictures from mobiles apps and ballons just serve as helpers, but maybe
> could be some security issues, so we prefer to use papers, all the steps
> always include community members.
>
> This actually is a methodology for mapping slums in connection of every
> house as spatial element with household surveys that give us a clear
> picture of community dimensions, so useful for his inner development.
>
> I'm glad to say that now this slum is on the way to became a formal
> neighborhood and OSM map is the base to achieve that, so mapping slums can
> be a tool for poverty overcome, because as a formal one, they can be part
> of local administration planning services and budget, and of course, with
> all this information (that became in knowledge throught action) they know
> how to proceed in his development path.
>
> I humbly hope this could help with your question; if not feel free to come
> with more,
>
> Humberto Yances
>
>
> 2016-07-14 5:58 GMT-05:00 Mishari Muqbil :
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I just wanted to feedback from the community for our effort to map the
>> slums in Klong Toey, Bangkok. The size of the area is about 1km x 2 km
>> around here <https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/13.7071/100.5763> and
>> I have captured a sequence on Mapillay here
>> <https://www.mapillary.com/map/search/13.711477616336708/100.5742382513609/17>.
>> There are several challenges here including access to internet and English
>> literacy, so I have come up with the following rough plan.
>>
>> 1. Put out a call for volunteers, work with NGOs in the area to find
>> local kids who are interested in putting their community on the map.
>> 2. Train the kids in using ID editor. I think I will limit them to doing
>> specific things i.e. walkways, houses, trees, restaurant, convenience
>> stores with individual kids limited to 2-3 features to avoid confusion then
>> as they get the hang of it, increase their repertoire.
>> 3. Take over a local internet cafe for a day for training and mapping
>> purpose.
>>
>> Now I'm not sure about the rest of the process, you can see from
>> Mapillary that due to the somewhat dense nature of the community, GPS is
>> inaccurate and neither Bing nor Mapbox has enough of a resolution to be
>> meaningful. So I have several (possibly overlapping) ideas.
>>
>> a) hire or borrow a drone to take aerial imagery and upload to
>> openaerialmap and use that as a basemap but I'm not sure how possible it
>> will be to see through the roofs.
>> b) get a team of surveyor students from Prof. Garavig to map out the
>> paths in the community (it's pretty big so I'm not sure how tine consuming
>> it is) then have the community kids fill in the blank.
>> c) use walking papers and have the kids go out, sketching what they see
>> from the rooftop but I feel this may be prone to errors.
>>
>> Does anyone have any experience or tips they can share on how we can
>> achieve this?
>>
>> Best regards
>

Re: [OSM-talk] Www.openstreetmap.org Down?

[Liz Barry]

maybe something local. no tiles loading for me in Brooklyn, NYC USA

@lizbarry 


On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Grant Slater
wrote:

> The site is up and traffic is at expected levels.
>
> Does the site not respond at all or a part not load?
>
> If there were a major outage it would be reported here:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Platform_Status
>
> Regards
>  Grant
>  Part of OSM sysadmin team.
>
>
> On 14 August 2013 20:33, Steve Doerr  wrote:
>
>> Is it?
>>
>> --
>> Steve
>>
>> __**_
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>>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] comments on new map widget on main page

[Liz Barry]

+1

@lizbarry 


On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:

> On Jul 29, 2013, at 2:57 PM, Lester Caine wrote:
>
> > John Firebaugh wrote:
> >> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 4:26 PM, Greg Troxel  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>I'd like to see two things different; both of these are regressions
> from
> >>the old way and I think easy to address
> >>
> >> I believe that persisting the location and zoom in the URL hash will
> address
> >> both of these concerns.
> >>
> >> Please try it out: http://hash.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/
> >
> > That works reasonably well for me  I'm used to seeing that sort of
> info from the hover over links on the bottom of the browser, so having it
> stable is probably an improvement.
>
>
> +1.
>
> 
> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
> sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC updated: OSM Attribution Mark (was: contributor mark)

[Liz Barry]

I quickly put the logo side by side with the attribution mark. I feel it is
clearly of the same family, linked by

   1. the shape of the folded map
   2. the color grey in the magnifying glass handle

i uploaded the JPG to twitter --
https://twitter.com/lizbarry/status/327071379105120257

What do you think?


On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Kathleen Danielson <
kathleen.daniel...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree wholeheartedly with Mike's points about the current branding
> around the project. However, as there has been generally positive feedback
> for the design of this attribution mark, would it make sense to move
> forward with using the attribution mark (since it addresses an immediate
> problem) and use that as a jumping off point for rebranding OSM? Rebranding
> is no small task, and it seems like it would be a shame to hold off on
> going ahead with what (I'm hearing) most folks think is a good initiative
> so that we can complete a rebranding initiative first.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
>
>> On 24/04/2013 16:03, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>>
>>> Are you therefore saying that what has been designed as an attribution
>>> mark should be our new logo, or are you saying that there does not have to
>>> be a likeness between the logo and the attribution mark?
>>>
>>
>> Let me add the following alternative : there has to be a likeness between
>> the logo and the attribution mark, in order to maintain the visual
>> consistency of the brand - whatever the chosen design.
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC updated: OSM Attribution Mark (was: contributor mark)

[Liz Barry]

+1 to Alex's original post -- the new attribution mark is well designed
and versatile for its purposes. The shape of the folded map links the
attribution mark with our logo.

+1 spiffed up copyright page BUT the proportion of image to information
"above the fold" still needs finetuning, as well as the exact text.


On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> John,
>
>
> On 04/24/2013 03:56 PM, the Old Topo Depot wrote:
>
>> The proposed mark is very well suited as a replacement.  It is simple,
>> minimalistic, and works well on a variety of backgrounds.
>>
>
> You wrote the above as a "+1" to a statement from Mike Cuttler that said
>
>  What should be done first is establishing good visual identity for
>> OpenStreetMap, primarily through logo (both long 'OpenStreetMap' and
>> short 'OSM' version) with special attention for usability - meaning
>> that we should be able to put it everywhere and brand would be
>> recognizable.
>>
>
> Are you therefore saying that what has been designed as an attribution
> mark should be our new logo, or are you saying that there does not have to
> be a likeness between the logo and the attribution mark?
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
>
> __**_
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>



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[OSM-legal-talk] Noise vs unanswered questions

[Liz]

The complete lack of any arguments left in the brains of the pro-ODbL lobby 
shows in the complete falling apart of any discussion on this list, with 
previously thoughtful people concentrating on personal attacks on others, 
mostly claiming that they are making personal attacks.

So
1. From where does OSMF get the mandate to choose the licence? OSMF mandate is 
to own and run the servers . I got that from the OSMF website.

2. Why is a vote among ~300 people binding on a community of ~300,000 
contributors, of whom ~12,500 are active mappers.

3. Why does the OSMF use the advice of a lawyer who was party to writing the 
ODbL? I see there the biggest conflict of interest in the project. Good legal 
advice is independent, and the price should not involved in determinign 
whether it is good or bad.

4. How much data loss is acceptable to the pro-ODbL lobby?

5. When will the tools be available to see how much data worldwide will be 
removed? - on a world map, not a diagram.


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] Community vs. Licensing

[Liz]

On Wed, 1 Sep 2010, Richard Weait wrote:
> Every time OSM contributors have been asked, they have supported ODbL
> (or license change before ODbL had a name).  All the way back to SotM
> Manchester. And all the way forward through polls and surveys and more
> SotM conferences.  All the time, collaborative discussions and
> compromise.  Every contributor will make their own choice to proceed
> or not.

I've been asked ONCE.
I formally voted in an OSMF poll
very few were in that poll compared to the thousands not in the poll

and you cannot claim that you have made even an attempt at asking the 
community what they want.

How many people do you really think you have asked? Remember that some will 
have been asked more than once.
Now that is you numerator, now count the denominator.
This might be 'all contributors, ever', or 'contributors active in the last x 
months', or some other denominator, and then honestly decide if you have 
polled enough contributors to provide a fair answer.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Let's prepare to Fork OSM to a CCBYSA 2.0continuation

[Liz]

On Sun, 22 Aug 2010, Serge Wroclawski wrote:
> 2. Much more stringent requirements are put on lots of projects
> 
> You may have heard of the GNU project. Are you aware that all
> contributors to GNU project must sign over not just license
> agreements, but copyright assignments?
> 
> Just this week a new project came along called OpenStack, and all
> contributors must sign a license agreement to the central body.
> 
> This is normal and there are very good reasons these organizations do
> what they do.

However, that its the original agreement which all of these contributors 
signed up using.
Other projects have different ways of handling the copyright issues. 

Both schemes are *normal* but changing between them is not.

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Re: [OSM-talk] NOTICE: Scheduled Maintenance - Tuesday Morning

[Liz]

On Sat, 21 Aug 2010, Alex S. wrote:
> > On 20/08/10 18:00, Martin Fossdal Guttesen wrote:
> >> what kind of upgrades are beeing performed ?
> >
> > 
> >
> > We're installing extra memory - doubling what is there now.
> 
> And that takes 90 minutes?

Now when it is finished in 30 minutes you'll all be happy
If it takes 91 minutes you will complaining
Of course the time estimate has to be high.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik rendering of nature reserve is very, very bad

[Liz]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, pavithran wrote:
> Re: "NR" for natural reserve . IMHO using names for landuses doesn't
> look good . Replacing it with some other art work which converys the
> same meaning would be a better idea.

I agree with your point - as soon as we consider users of non-Latin scripts 
and non-English speaking users it is a poor choice.

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Re: [OSM-talk] I quit

[Liz]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Chris Hill wrote:
> OK, this stupidity has gone too far.
> 
> Now the 'moderator' is arguing with the trolls on a 'moderated' list.
> 
> I quit this list.


I see you use Thunderbird. I'm sure you can filter off any correspondents 
whose posts annoy you and not have to leave the list.

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Re: [OSM-talk] NearMap Community Licence and OSM Contributor Terms

[Liz]

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Grant Slater wrote:
> >> OSMF is just a legal entity to do things. OSM is the project.
> > 
> > There are people behind. I was a part of the OSM project as soon as I
> > contributed and I am not part of OSMF. Those are thus 2 different things.
> 
> You access OSMF paid for resources (hardware), domains, OSMF
> negotiated legal agreements (eg: aerial imagery) and OSMF negotiated
> hosting contracts etc and likely in future OSMF paid staff who manage
> things like servers and agreements. So no, they are not 2 different
> things.

I've just been reading up carefully on the OSMF website, and it is written 
there that OSM and OSMF are not the same. 
So should I believe Grant Slater or the published material of OSMF which has 
been unaltered over more than a year?

There is a marked difference between the stated objectives of OSMF and the 
current behaviour of the Board and its subcommittees. 

http://www.osmfoundation.org/
will take you to the OSMF published material

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Re: [OSM-talk] A GPS Trace Visualizer

[Liz]

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Toby Murray wrote:
> I personally tag all my trace uploads with mode of transportation
> (bicycle, car, walking) as well as the make and model of the GPS unit
> (garmin, edge 305) but yeah that probably can't be relied upon too
> much.
I don't break the trace at the point at which I get out of the car or off the 
bike and walk, so I have mixed tracks almost always.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Papers integration with OSM.org ?

[Liz]

On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, Michal Migurski wrote:


big snip
> I've got some work toward this goal on a branch, mostly consisting of
> adding a bbox to the URL in the QR code and increasing the print
> dimensions of the code to account for the consequently higher resolution.
> If the request doesn't return a status=200, a look at the bounds in the
> URL should be enough to do a complete scan.


please take this to a developer list, where I don't have to read it

(just a request on principle, that's all, I am quite capable of ignoring it)

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Re: [OSM-talk] proposal: rental=*

[Liz]

On Tue, 17 Aug 2010, Peter Wendorff wrote:
> It's the same question in other cases, too:
> - post offices as service of normal shops
> vs. selling office stuff as service of post offices
> - kind of shops inside shops, in Germany e.g. Tchibo deals with that 
> business model a lot; the real supermarkets include pharmacys quite often
> - a butcher inside a supermarket - or a butcher selling spices, cheese 
> etc., too.

It is very common where I travel for shops to be multipurpose.
I understand that we are restricted by the API to a single value
and this is another reason not to put every possible tag under "amenity".

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Re: [OSM-talk] Legal discussion on talk@

[Liz]

On Sat, 14 Aug 2010, SteveC wrote:
> Please move all legal discussion (except announcements of course) to
> 
>   http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
> 
> or
> 
>   http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-general
> 
> Steve
> 
> stevecoast.com
> 

I think that is censorship.
Not every person on talk belongs to legal-talk.
If a poster wishes to spread a message more widely to the community, they 
should be quite free to do so.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Contributor Terms

[Liz]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Pierre-Alain Dorange wrote:
> > [...]
> > That said, the strategy adopted by OSFM is one that is calculated to load
> > the bases in favour of enabling them to switch to ODbL eventually.  They
> > do not intend to ask the whole community to vote on whether there should
> > be a switch.  This is a sign of their attitude towards the community
> > they control.
> 
> Seriously, you believe in that ?
> What is the plan ? Why such an evil plan ? What is the conspiracy ?
> They want to control the world ?

Think carefully
80n has been on 'the inside' and listened to discussion, been party to 
discussion.
If such a person has made a statement their knowledge of the matter(s) must be 
greater than yours or mine.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Deletion of Australian data

[Liz]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Nick Hocking wrote:
> It seems as though if someone ran a bot to add just one tag to most of the
> streets in (say) Canberra


On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Grant Slater wrote:
> There is also a plan of action if people are found to be making these
> sorts of abusive edits.

I can immediately think of an edit which could fall into the above category, 
and it would not be classified as "abusive" because it did add additional 
information to the tags.

so why is such an edit assumed to be "abusive"
when there are clear calls for "assuming that people act in good faith"?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Enough is enough: disinfecting OSM from poisonous people

[Liz]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Apollinaris Schoell wrote:
>  I think we can easily accept loosing a handful of poisonous people
> because all others will spend less time dealing with them and be more
> productive.
> sure some will continue but then it's definitely time to think about
> blocking them.

This is the sort of post I do find offensive. I presume I'm listed as 
poisonous.
I wrote about censorship, and this is the aim at this point, as I see it.


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Re: [OSM-talk] BDFL & Moderation

[Liz]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Simon Ward wrote:
> I see two problems in the threads so far:
> 
>   * The dissenters keep repeating themselves, with the same arguments
> already discussed to death
> 
> This doesn’t help with:
> 
>   * The dissenters have some real issues that people keep ignoring or
> sidestepping.  (The majority response to Australian concerns that
> I’ve seen is “well that’s you’re own fault” (and yes, I have said
> that previously))

There are a list of questions which have not been answered whether on osmf-
talk or legal-talk or talk.

The complete failure to answer some of these questions is some of the most 
irritating behaviour I find. I can cope with flames and bad behaviour. My 
generation was taught that "words will never hurt you".

I am now considering OSMF as an annoying third party which has interspersed 
itself between myself and OSM. I have no original contract of any form between 
myself and OSMF.

I'm not going to repeat my questions to prove they remain unanswered. Some are 
merely requests for factual information and some are requests for information 
on Board decisions. Being a member of OSMF did not assist me to get answers to 
the questions.



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Re: [OSM-talk] The story of one ticket.

[Liz]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Aleksandr Dezhin wrote:
> To begin, I'll actually part of story:
> 
> Вefore 2009/10/2, I traveled with this problem on different mailing
> lists, apparently I was wrong and should immediately write to the
> DWG...

We need clear instructions on this in the proposed Code of Conduct.
Aleksandr has obviously tried hard to get this problem resolved from the top 
and over a long period of time no assistance has been received.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Enough is enough: disinfecting OSM from poisonous people

[Liz]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, SteveC wrote:
> Maybe a line saying "mailing list posts should follow the topic of the
> list"
Fine

Talk= talk

and when you get plenty you are upset?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Enough is enough: disinfecting OSM from poisonous people

[Liz]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Ian Dees wrote:
> One of the tenets mentioned in the video SteveC linked to was to not fuel
> the fire by responding to poisonous posts on mailing lists. As we discuss
> what to do about this sort of distraction, we should keep in mind that the
> whole community bears the responsibility: Don't reply to off-topic
> or inflammatory posts.

'Poison' is opinion.
I regard these efforts as attempted censorship

"take this back to legal-talk where it belongs"
"don't reply to poisonous posts"

Discussion needs to be free and widespread.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Enough is enough: disinfecting OSM from poisonous people

[Liz]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Patrick Kilian wrote:
> But there has been the claim "CC-BY-SA works perfectly well". If it
> actually works has to be tested in court. But there are enough lawyers
> that have told us "it might very well break" that the perfectly part
> of the statement is definitely false. If it worked perfectly well
> noone would have any doubt about the current license. Yet the statement
> surfaces over and over again.

The Fear Uncertainty & Doubt exists equally in the new. 
Quote:  If it actually works has to be tested in court.
It's new, ODbL hasn't been tested in court.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

[Liz]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, Ian Dees wrote:
> > Most of the cases you are probably familiar with involve simple lists of
> > telephone numbers and subscribers.  The moment you add even the slightest
> > originality to a collection of facts then it become eligible for
> > copyright.
> 
> Can you give examples of what you consider originality in the OSM database?

On tagging within the last 24 hours was a discussion on "Living Street".

"Living Street" in some jurisdictions is clearly defined. Marking those 
streets so signed as highway=living_street is noting down a fact.

Deciding that a "Shared Zone" is highway=living_street is not a fact, it is my 
or some other persons decision, and if the matter is not so clear at all, and 
the decision is made as recommended on the street's features (low speed limit, 
no marked centre line) then it is clearly an original decision.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-legal-talk] decision removing data

[Liz]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, SteveC wrote:
> Thus, it slows everything down.
> 
> Oh and this and other threads going on right now are good examples. It's
> explicitly slowing down and complicating the process, which is probably
> the aim of several of the people here.

I don't think it slows everything down, just some things.
My explicit aim is not to slow down nor complicate the process of licence 
change, but to pull it to a halt.

I have had the same concerns with the licence change over a long period of 
time. 
I signed up to a CC-by-SA project. I did read the terms and check the licence 
over at Creative Commons.
I have contributed to a CC-by-SA project.

Some of my work is incompatible with the proposed licence and contributor 
terms. The only responses I get are along the lines of "relicence the source" 
or "remove the imported data".

So far the technical work involved in "remove the imported data" or "remove 
all my contributions" is incomplete. I have decided against relicencing my 
work. Relicencing is breaking faith with the project as I signed up (November 
07). I believe that I am entitled to my choice.

Am I prepared to leave and join a fork which remains CC-by-SA?
Yes I am. I have registered some domain names, intended for regional use, and 
will choose and register some more if I determine there is support which 
extends past our region.

Liz



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Re: [OSM-talk] We should recruit these ladies...

[Liz]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, Mike N. wrote:
> to become OSM mappers!
> 
> http://www.greenvilleopenmap.info/Mappers00.jpg
> 
>  (Saw that in a magazine ad)
> 

not a joke at all
http://www.toiletmap.gov.au/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

[Liz]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> John and Liz in Australia say that CC-BY(-SA) works for geodata in 
> Australia, meaning that facts can be copyrighted. Several Australian 
> judges seem to think otherwise but let's assume it were so.
Misquote
John has pointed out twice that one legal decision is under appeal



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Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

[Liz]

On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Cartinus wrote:
> It doesn't take as many manhours to map a desert as it takes to map
> downtown  Melbourne.
Cartinus
Please don't come up with this sort of nonsense

Imports have increased our number of contributors, not decreased them.
I have mapped, with my partner, a VERY large area of my state. Mostly from 
survey work. That means we got the main roads, streets in towns and some side 
roads, POIs.
Nowhere would I claim it is complete. My survey work has been supplemented by 
imports which have provided some river and some rail and some road alignments.

My work extends from Cobar to Tocumwal with a little overlap at the southern 
end
and between Adelaide and Wollongong
East West the area between Yass and Mildura is mostly my work, with little 
overlap.

My work is not going under ODBL but I am still waiting to hear how my work is 
going to be excluded. 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

[Liz]

On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> I don't see any reason for an outcry other than this might make the 
> coastline less precise for a while. Chances are it is going to be fixed 
> very quickly in areas with Yahoo imagery, and might retain some of the 
> typical "blockiness" of the PGS import in wilderness areas.

If you knew what you were talking about I might be more patient.
Yahoo imagery in high definition covers an extremely small proportion of 
Australia.
Landsat imagery is better than Yahoo imagery in low definition, and it isn't 
much good either.

check this
http://www.maths.mq.edu.au/numeracy/tutorial/cts1.htm
With PGS you get the least accurate coastline
and we got the more accurate one from Geoscience Australia
http://www.ga.gov.au/education/geoscience-basics/dimensions/coastline-
lengths.jsp

and then further work has gone into this from high resolution aerial 
photography.


But the coastline is not the total of the imported data.
Something like a quarter of the data for the entire continent has attribution 
markers on it (I didn't do the maths, and it may have been closer to one 
third)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

[Liz]

On Sun, 8 Aug 2010, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Therefore OSMF need not treat the two groups separately as long as it 
> does not exert the future licence change option for the 30,000 'CT 1.0' 
> signups.

For OSMF not to treat them separately it cannot exert a future licence change 
option at all


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Re: [OSM-talk] Languages, OSM, scripts and all that.

[Liz]

On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Paul Houle wrote:
> Cultural imperialist or not,  my suspicion that that the roman 
> alphabet is (at least somewhat) understood by educated people who use 
> non-roman alphabets regularly (this is definitely the case in the CJK 
> area.) On the other hand,  my guess is that the ability to read Arabic 
> is as common in, say Korea, as it is in the U.S.


Step one pace to the side and consider again
If I read in Cyrillic script normally I will have been taught some Roman 
script at school. If I leave my home where I use Cyrillic script and go to 
"Egypt " to see the "Pyramids" how will I manage when my only scripts are 
Cyrillic and Roman with a bit of effort?

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] decision removing data

[Liz]

On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, 80n quoted:
> > I have been leading a team of digitizers tracing features from aerial
> > images. I
> > was doing everything I could to minimize the creative or artistic part of
> > their
> > work. Actually, a quite heavy system of internal and external quality
> > control
> > was there just to make sure that every worker was producing about the
> > same sort
> > of bulk data.

I've missed the original email here

This argument is one of the arguments used in the Australian High(?)Court 
decision (over the Yellow Pages directory)

The Yellow Pages had strict criteria of sameness from a list of quality 
control measures.
Another argument was that the owner of the Yellow Pages used contractors to 
perform the work and was not the owner of the data in the same way as if it 
had used employees to complete the work of collecting data for the directory.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] decision removing data

[Liz]

On Thu, 5 Aug 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Liz,
> 
> > Since 80n has mooted this deadline some time ago, and only now you
> > consider it, of course you think it is quite short.
> 
> 80n first mentioned this deadline on 14th July, i.e. at the time that
> was six weeks.
> 
> It was unclear to me what exactly the deadline was about; he wrote "if
> there isn't a clear majority by September 1st then I'd say the
> relicensing has failed" but a majority of whom, in what question?
> 
> Did anybody - you, 80n, anybody? - think that we'd somehow, in these six
> weeks, be able to email every contributor, and ask them to relicense
> their content, chase up those that don't answer, and consolidate the
> results? - Personally I didn't even think about that deadline becasue it
> seemed quite absurd.
> 
> Plus, I don't know if we need any kind of deadline at all.
> 
> We can simply decide to re-license, then ask everyone to agree, then
> disallow contributions from people who haven't agreed. All the time, the
> planet is still under CC-BY-SA. Then we evaluate the losses. Say we find
> that 20% of data has not been relicensed. Ok, we start working on
> replacing that data, using the work of people who are ok with ODbL.
> After a while, only 10% of "old" data is still there. We continue, with
> the planet still under CC-BY-SA. After another while, we have brought
> down the losses to 1%, or 0.1%, or whatever. At that time we throw out
> the rest and publish the planet under ODbL.
> 
> Who cares if that time is one year in the future? If it helps to keep
> our losses to a minimum - why not.
> 
> As you know we have many people who don't fear the license change, but
> they fear data loss incurred by people not agreeing. In theory, the LWG
> could even set an arbitrary limit (e.g. "we promise not to re-license
> the planet until global data loss is less than x%"). That should then
> bring all those people on board who fear data loss. Then we just carry
> on as I described above, slowly eliminating the "old" data by replacing
> it with re-surveyed "new" data until we achieve what we want.
> 
> Just a thought. Not necessarily bright. Might have its problems, might
> also work.
> 
> Bye
> Frederik

Frederick i compliment you on actually thinking instead of holding firm in a 
particular viewpoint.
I have not changed my mind, as you still will have changed the licence by 
stealth and creep.
As you realise, in my jurisdiction, CC-by-SA is a better licence than ODbL, as 
it has been well checked and has government use.
In other jurisdictions the matter is different.

A previous idea of yours was different licences for different areas, and this 
has not been fully explored.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] decision removing data

[Liz]

On Wed, 4 Aug 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> > Prolific editors don't tend to restrict their activity to a single 
> > location.  This might be more widespread than anticipated.
> 
> Prolific editors also tend not to leave the project in a huff.
No, they continue to make noise before they do.

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Re: [OSM-talk] A plea for meaning ful changeset comments

[Liz]

On Sun, 1 Aug 2010, Ed Avis wrote:
> Liz  billiau.net> writes:
> >so how do *you* summarise adding POIs and side streets and putting in
> >maxspeed along a hundred km of highway?
> >
> >because i just put in the name of where i have been, that's all.
> 
> I'd also mention how I found the data - spotted from the car window as I
> drove past, or painstakingly surveyed on foot?  That can help someone else
> if they need to verify the exact position of some post box to the nearest
> metre, or whatever.
> 
> So I would say 'POIs from car window driving through X' or 'mapping trip on
> foot to X'.
> 
> (You could instead tag source=survey;survey=foot or something equally
> Byzantine on every single object, but nobody is pedantic enough to do
> that.  So a short note in plain English on the changeset helps.)

So are you all now putting examples on the wiki about changeset comments?
To the humble mapper they would have just arrived. Some editing programmes 
prefill the changeset comment. One (which I have not tried) apparently does 
not allow any comment. 
If freeform text is what you want, could you file bug reports on the editors 
that don't make that obvious?

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Re: [OSM-talk] A plea for meaning ful changeset comments

[Liz]

On Sun, 1 Aug 2010, Ed Avis wrote:
> Another way to look at it is that it's your own time you are saving.
> If another mapper has a question about your changes and they have to
> contact you and you need to reply, that uses a lot more time than a quick
> explanation attached to the change when it was uploaded.
> 
> Certainly doing so takes a lot less time than posting messages on this
> list.

Mailing people who have just mapped something which I wish to query doesn't 
take long. It may take a couple of weeks to get an answer - other mappers who 
stray into my areas of interest are travelling and may not have internet 
access regularly.
I've not found what I want to know from the changeset comments. I want to know 
when the mapping happened (I may have newer knowledge) or how they actually 
got some information I'd not been able to obtain. The mail process improves 
our teamwork and gives me new hints on information gathering, or allows us to 
politely approach a new mapper and offer advice.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] emergency=*

[Liz]

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Cartinus wrote:
> And "nobody" puts 
> all Key: and Tag: pages in his wiki watchlist.
Use one of the feeds (eg RSS) and it is easy.

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Re: [OSM-talk] A plea for meaning ful changeset comments

[Liz]

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> You spend an hour doing edits, then 
> cannot be bothered to spend a minute to think of a good changeset 
> comment.

so how do *you* summarise adding POIs and side streets and putting in maxspeed 
along a hundred km of highway?

because i just put in the name of where i have been, that's all.

and that is glaringly obvious from the bounding box

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Re: [OSM-talk] A plea for meaning ful changeset comments

[Liz]

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Liz wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> > Dear all,
> > 
> > we've had the changeset feature for quite a while now and I believe
> > 
> > it is very helpful in a number of ways.
> 
> I thought I'd have a look at the documentation provided for the
> documentation called "changeset comment"
> 
> The documentation I found was at
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:comment
> and
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changesets
> 
> and these give a completely different slant on the changeset comment.
> They discuss them being optional and note that anything mandatory annoys
> some mappers who will retaliate with garbage comments.
> 
> Thanks to the persons who pointed out changeset comments I know realise
> that I am quite free to write anything or nothing useful.
> Yes I can see their potential use, however would the other persons in this
> thread who are dogmatic about their use read the existing documentation on
> the documentation.
> 

The stuff I read changed within hours.
Of course you can read the wiki history to see what it did say at the time  
wrote the email.

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Re: [OSM-talk] A plea for meaning ful changeset comments

[Liz]

On Fri, 30 Jul 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> we've had the changeset feature for quite a while now and I believe 
> it is very helpful in a number of ways.

I thought I'd have a look at the documentation provided for the documentation 
called "changeset comment"

The documentation I found was at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:comment
and
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changesets

and these give a completely different slant on the changeset comment.
They discuss them being optional and note that anything mandatory annoys some 
mappers who will retaliate with garbage comments.

Thanks to the persons who pointed out changeset comments I know realise that I 
am quite free to write anything or nothing useful.
Yes I can see their potential use, however would the other persons in this 
thread who are dogmatic about their use read the existing documentation on the 
documentation. 

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] emergency=*

[Liz]

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Ross Scanlon wrote:
> >   [emergency] = 'police_station'
> 
> What does a police station have to do with emergencies? Are you going to 
> tag the UN headquarters next because they run international disaster
> relief?
> 
> Bye
> Frederik

Well here, it's in the portfolio of the Emergency Services Minister, so in New 
South Wales, Australia, its culturally correct.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Image Of The Week proposal

[Liz]

On Thu, 29 Jul 2010, Adam Killian wrote:
> > But the girl is worth image of the week anyhow...
> >
> > 
> 
> Could we please not talk about the girl anymore?  This is the kind of
> behavior that can drive women away from open source projects and geekery
> in general.

thanks Adam

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Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion to add SA clause to CT section 3, describing "free and open license"

[Liz]

On Tue, 20 Jul 2010, SteveC wrote:
>  From my experience off list with all the people frustrated both in email
> and in person, those 20 or so people here just don't represent everyone
> else who'd prefer all this discussion to go to legal-talk and just move on
> with the license.

quash all discussion, move it out of sight, and proceed?



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Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion to add SA clause to CT section 3, describing "free and open license"

[Liz]

On Mon, 19 Jul 2010, Peteris Krisjanis wrote:
> Sorry, but as far as I remember CT "suddenly" appeared on the table.
> Before that there was just ODBL.

SteveC has already told me that either my memory was faulty or I wasn't paying 
attention for stating exactly that.


Couldn't be bothered to look for the details, because I'm sure my memory is 
excellent.

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Re: [OSM-talk] What could we do to make this licences discussion more inclusive?

[Liz]

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Did imports and Nearmap tracing in Australia start before the 
> relicensing effort, or were you simply not aware of it, or did you not 
> take it seriously?
We started imports a while ago, with the first I recall in 2007.
In 2007 I was not aware of an attempt to relicense OSM, but it was probably 
started by then. What I read on signup was CC-by-SA, and no talk of any future 
change.

Then ODBL was presented, with a fanfare, and later the "Contributor Terms" 
crept out, more quietly.

At the stage of announcement of ODBL we were already using CC-by-SA data from 
the Australian government. At a later date this data was changed to CC-by, and 
we would be able to retain it under ODBL, but not with the Contributor Terms 
which had by then been published.

Nearmap chose to make their orthophotos available to OSM under the current 
licence, CC-by-SA. The email to a few of us yesterday indicated firmly that 
Share-Alike was very important to NearMap, and that there is no possibility of 
the share alike being removed at a later stage.
So ODBL & contributor terms which preserve share-alike would possibly be 
acceptable.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Murray River Shared nodes between non-routable objects?

[Liz]

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010, Ross Scanlon wrote:
> Have a look at the Murray River,  the correct state boundary is the
> southern bank but someone has changed parts of the river to be the admin
> boundary so when the map is drawn from the data the river appears in the
> wrong place.  The same happens with roads where the admin boundary is made
> into a highway=* and is actually of to one side or the road has been
> realigned.

The original Murray River trace was either made by swampwallaby using vmap or 
by a few of us tracing from Landsat.
The only surveyed points then would have been bridges and bridge piers.

So the admin boundary, which is definitely not the wet part of the river, is 
more accurate overall

Some can now be seen on Nearmap, and this is enough resolution to split the 
river from the admin boundary.
This might be best done by drawing in riverbanks and making areas of the 
river.


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Re: [OSM-talk] fact-based vote?

[Liz]

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010, Apollinaris Schoell wrote:
> there is no loss of data! It has always been said that the old data will
> remain available under the old license.

If you take somewhere between one third and one quarter of the data for a well 
defined area and lock it up from further edits on OSM

what will those mappers do?

Will they continue with OSM and remap those missing bits
will they give up altogether
or will they fork?


This is not a philosophical question - this is our first estimate on data loss 
for one substantial area of the globe.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] License Cut-over and critical mass

[Liz]

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010, Rob Myers wrote:
> > Science Commons seem to think copyright doesn't apply to databases,
> 
> In the US.
> 
> > OKFN
> > seem to think it might.

After a recent High Court decision, in Australia copyright is not applicable 
to databases. Maps were not included in the Court decision, but a database was 
the subject of the case.
The contract part of ODbL may not have any force either in Australia. That 
would need court hearings to determine.
Against - It is presented as a shrink wrap licence with no opportunity to 
negotiate terms
- The entity representing the data does not 'own' the data and it could 
be argued has no right to be a party to a contract over the data


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Re: [OSM-talk] fact-based vote?

[Liz]

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010, Richard Weait wrote:
> >> Interesting idea.  How should this work?  Something like?:
> >> 
> >> ... steps leading to today
> >> - users indicate ODbL acceptance or not
> >> - summarize user replies: x replies, y accept.
> >> - somebody processes all the results to show data effect
> >> - publish those results
> >> - users vote to proceed with license upgrade (or not) based on
> >> published results.
> >> - upgrade license (or not) based on user vote
> >> 
> >> Or more simply.  Ask users if they are willing to proceed.  Calculate
> >> and show users the results.  Then ask users if that is good enough to
> >> make it "official".
> >> 
> >> Is this what you imagine?  Is this acceptable to those reading this?
> > 
> > That would be a great solution. It allows a decision based on facts,

What about regional differences?
How are we going to look at a region (geographic or political) and decide 
firstly who 'represents' that region (mappers or residents) and then who can 
decide that losing X% of data in a region is acceptable?

Example
If Europe as a map stays intact will we be concerned if [earthquake region] is 
lost because it was traced from photography whose licence does not let it 
proceed under the new licence or terms and conditions?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Defining critical mass...

[Liz]

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> I am simply saying that if you wanted to get involved in the decision
> whether or not to ask users how they would licence their contributions,
> there was a really simple way to do so: by joining OSMF.

That I did, and was disappointed at the failure to get any answers that way
either.
So I chose not to continue inside OSMF.

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[OSM-talk] Question on filtering data

[Liz]

I would like to filter OSM data in a large area which is about 600km square 
and find what has been surveyed by a particular mapper.

If data has been added to this later eg a maxspeed tag by another mapper, I do 
not want this data excluded.

I accept that this may involve a series of searches.

Can anyone assist me?

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] License Cut-over and critical mass

[Liz]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Tobias Knerr wrote:
> > And exactly that is the problem. Mappers didn't have a say in 
> > starting the license change process
> 
> Yes, they did. After about four years of licence discussion among mappers,
> OSMF held a vote last autumn in which 89% of respondees approved the
> process
> (http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2009-December/000753.h
> tml).
Only members of OSMF had a vote.



> 
> In addition, OSMF holds annual elections where anyone can stand and put
> forward their views, and if elected, work to have them implemented -
> exactly the same way that your country's democracy works.
We realise that.

> 
> Of course, not everyone is a member of OSMF, but if you don't choose to get
> involved in the running of the project then you can't really complain if
> decisions are taken that aren't to your liking.
A common statement by those "on the inside".
Membership of OSMF costs money. I have enough money for that sort of expense 
but not everyone does.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Tag name vs operator

[Liz]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010, Alan Mintz wrote:
> At 2010-07-12 14:35, John Smith wrote:
> >On 13 July 2010 07:18, Alan Mintz  wrote:
> > > I think operator has been mis-used. It appears in a lot of JOSM presets
> > > where I believe it is incorrect.
> >
> >This is an argument over the use of english as a language and tags
> >that look like english words and how people interrupt them.
> 
> While OSM certainly has some of these, I don't believe that is the case
> here. I believe the meaning of the word operator is clearly the same in
> both en-us and en-uk, and that using it as currently defined is completely
> incorrect.
> 

I agree with Alan. I had a lot of difficulty understanding what was meant by 
"operator", now I just fill it in as if it were "name of franchise" or 
"brand".
It was not the best choice of English word to start with, but we are probably 
stuck with it.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Area-type objects and ways along its boundaries

[Liz]

On Wed, 7 Jul 2010, Pieren wrote:
> > You missunderstood : the definition of the border IS the middle of the
> > road
> 
> or river. If we find a legal source for the admin boundary, it is most of
> the time less accurate then a GPS trace following the feature irl.
there is no misunderstanding
the legally defined admin boundary is at a particular place
but the question is 
does it move when the feature (road, railway, river) moves
or is staying at the original place until the law moves it?

Exact example:
The southern bank of the Murray River is the border between 2 states.
Where the river has been flooded by building a dam the southern bank has 
moved. (Yarrawonga-Mulwala region)
Legal answer for this boundary - the boundary did not move.



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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is back after maintenance

[Liz]

On Sat, 3 Jul 2010, Grant Slater wrote:
> Talk,
> 
> OpenStreetMap is now back after the planned maintenance.
> 
> Happy mapping.
> 
> / Grant
> Part of OpenStreetMap sysadmin team.
> 

thanks guys
we won't have to chat on irc any more now (talk-au)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Osm.org Routing Demo

[Liz]

On Fri, 2 Jul 2010, Nic Roets wrote:
> I made a demonstration of how the yournavigation.org website can be
> embedded inside osm.org. Check it out:
> 
> http://nroets.dev.openstreetmap.org/demo/?lat=52.32796&lon=5.62046&zoom=15&;
> layers=B000FTFT

doesn't show up on Konqueror - i got a map with some broken display features 
(the scale for the levels, and clicking on the plus does nothing) (about 
kde4.4.3)

firefox showed me the route i didn't want to take quickly, so I added a 
waypoint to avoid the city
using a waypoint this way only showed me from the waypoint to the destination; 
so i started again and got the sort of result i was expecting.

I travelled this route recently using navit as a guide and the results were 
similar.
distance involved - about 900km

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Re: [OSM-talk] Es Official! El Songa SOTM Mundial!

[Liz]

On Fri, 2 Jul 2010, Mike Collinson wrote:
> (c) 2010 Producciones Shi-Shi Bai S.A.
oh no, copyright songs for SOTM?
will you lot have to pay to sing them?

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Re: [OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility!

[Liz]

On Fri, 2 Jul 2010, Lulu-Ann wrote:
> Since today the wiki can not be edited any more calculating plus or
> minus, now you have to be able to see a captcha image. There is no
> accessibility feature like acoustic output. 
> 
> Revert immediately!!!
> 
> You are inhibiting our blind contributors to stay with us!!!
> 
> Lulu-Ann
I have seen a captcha with an option to listen to something.
Sorry now that I didn't try it, nor recall where I saw it.

Take off the captchas!

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Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps

[Liz]

On Thu, 1 Jul 2010, Jaak Laineste wrote:
>  Unfourtunatly
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_Soviet_Union does not
> mention anything about maps. Were soviet military maps
> subject of copyright within USSR at all? This seems to be the key
> question.
> 
> According to my common sense, there are several ways how I could
> protect my stuff (software, maps, images etc), main ones:
> a) copyright laws, automatic
> b) try to keep it secret
> c) patents, trademarks

I read the whole article and decided that USSR copyright was issued to 
creative works, of which a map is usually one.
Whether copyright extends to facts on the map is not mentioned.

Very interesting, with "the boot on the other foot" is the statement from UK's 
Ordnance Survey claiming that the Russian maps must be stolen from their 
mapping
http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/OS%20Statement.pdf
a claim which has been thoroughly disputed by map scholars reviewing the 
actual maps
http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/unclejoe1.pdf
and 
http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/unclejoe2.pdf


Checked Russian maps of Australia available on the internet and most 
disappointed. One gold mining area in low resolution only.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps

[Liz]

On Thu, 1 Jul 2010, Apollinaris Schoell wrote:
> just checked one of these maps. and interestingly it contains data which is
> most likely copied from official maps which are not in PD. So it is nearly
> impossible that these maps are PD. the russian copyright holder may have
> bought the source data but very unlikely they have a license for
> distribution and release to PD.

Now I show my ignorance, but I am assuming that the last major name changes 
for cities and streets in Russia was post-Stalin, with a few changed after the 
breakup of the USSR.
Am I correct?
and now ... what years would be the markers for these events?
Because some of post-Stalinist changes would now be expired from copyright?

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Re: [OSM-talk] talk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 76

[Liz]

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010, Mike Harris wrote:
> However, I would not use 'unclassified' for the above reason nor 
> 'residential' if there were no houses and it was rural rather than  
> urban. I would normally go for track - but add sufficient further tags 
> (tracktype= and/or surface=) to make the physical condition clearer. 
> This also helps with the rendering - although we don't map fr the 
> renderer do we ;-) ;-) 

Track has a definite meaning in Au.
It may not be in the dictionary, but it defines a road which is driven with 
care because of its surface, camber, corrugations, clearance.
Think of the term "goat-track", make two of them parallel and you have some 
idea of what is meant by 'track'. 

Unclassified is not a specific road term in Au, so is used in its natural 
language meaning.
The road described (which I recall was in the USA) is a formed road, which can 
be driven easily by one with appropriate experience, so if it was in Au it 
would be "unclassified".

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Re: [OSM-talk] cycle map not updating?

[Liz]

On Fri, 25 Jun 2010, Andy Allan wrote:
> It starts coming down to questions of time and money, and I only have
> a limited supply of both :-)

Usually one has either time OR money, and never both at once

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging for street danger levels

[Liz]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010, Paul Houle wrote:
> Toby Murray wrote:
> > Someone in my area is starting up a new website that is focused on
> > cycling in the city. They have decided to use OSM as their map which
> > is awesome.
> 
> Streets are not dangerous to bicyclists;  ~intersections~ are
> dangerous to bicyclists.
> 
> When bicyclists modify their behavior in search of "safe streets"
> they set themselves up, lemming like,  to be killed at intersections.
> Most of the dangerous and (mostly) illegal cycling behaviors that are
> widespread,  such as riding on sidewalks,  riding on the wrong side of
> the road,  riding on sidewalks on the wrong side of the road, and
> weaving around parked cars are derived from this fantasy cyclists have
> that some motorist is going to come up from behind in a faster,  larger
> vehicle and cream them.
> 
> In reality,  the self-preservation of motorists forces them to be
> looking ahead of themselves for vehicles that behave like other
> automobiles.  Cyclists are most likely to be picked up by that scanning
> behavior if they follow traffic rules.  If they disobey traffic rules,
> they're at much greater risk.
> 
> Cyclists may be safer if they follow a "dangerous" busy street that
> is well signalized and has few dangerous intersections than riding on a
> "safe" back alley that crosses numerous busy streets at poorly defined
> intersections.  There very well may be an "objective" measurement of the
> safety of ways,  routes,  and intersections,  but the majority of
> cyclists have demonstrated in everyday behavior and by their actions in
> the political sphere that the mental model of "safety" that they have is
> dangerously incorrect.
> 

Firstly I don't agree with your assessment.
Secondly, how will this assist with tagging streets unsuitable for cycling?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Routing on OSM maps on a Garmin device

[Liz]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Lambertus wrote:
> On 2010-06-15 01:53, Liz wrote:
> > On Mon, 14 Jun 2010, Maarten Deen wrote:
> >> Does anyone have similar experiences, and maybe an explanation why this
> >> happenes? Are the OSM maps too detailed for a simple device like this to
> >> calculate?
> > 
> > Using a separate *set* of maps for Australia, I have had trouble with
> > calculating a route that crossed a border from one map in the set to
> > another. The distance involved is not the problem in this case, but the
> > existence of the border.
> 
> That could be a result of the method used to split the data. If you use
> the Mkgmap Splitter tool then crossing borders should be possible, but
> using Osmosis et al won't.
> 

These maps are made with mkgmap
some borders can be routed over and some can't 
(in my six month old set)
my exact problem may have been solved as i did report it
http://www.osmaustralia.org/garminroute.php

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Re: [OSM-talk] openstreetmap.org down

[Liz]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Chris Hill wrote:
> Liz wrote:
> > On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Grant Slater wrote:
> >> On 15 June 2010 08:56, Tom Hughes  wrote:
> >>>> The tweet says couple of hours and that was 5 hours ago. Anyone knows
> >>>> how much longer will it take?
> >>> 
> >>> We had to wait for Adaptec to start work - Grant is holding on the
> >>> phone to their support people right now.
> >> 
> >> Adaptec support are to be commended.
> >> The storage array is now running a full verify step. It will take a few
> >> hours.
> >> 
> >> Regards
> >> 
> >>  Grant
> > 
> > Thanks Grant, but my withdrawal symptoms are getting worse
> 
> You should see a doctor :)


Will be able to do that, when I go to work tomorrow.

-- 
BOFH excuse #85:

Windows 95 undocumented "feature"

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Re: [OSM-talk] openstreetmap.org down

[Liz]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Grant Slater wrote:
> On 15 June 2010 08:56, Tom Hughes  wrote:
> >> The tweet says couple of hours and that was 5 hours ago. Anyone knows
> >> how much longer will it take?
> > 
> > We had to wait for Adaptec to start work - Grant is holding on the phone
> > to their support people right now.
> 
> Adaptec support are to be commended.
> The storage array is now running a full verify step. It will take a few
> hours.
> 
> Regards
>  Grant
> 
Thanks Grant, but my withdrawal symptoms are getting worse


:-$



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Re: [OSM-talk] Routing on OSM maps on a Garmin device

[Liz]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2010, Maarten Deen wrote:
> Does anyone have similar experiences, and maybe an explanation why this
> happenes? Are the OSM maps too detailed for a simple device like this to
> calculate?
Using a separate *set* of maps for Australia, I have had trouble with 
calculating a route that crossed a border from one map in the set to another. 
The distance involved is not the problem in this case, but the existence of 
the border.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Request for comments: Playground Equipment Proposal

[Liz]

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010, colliar wrote:
> Am 01.06.2010 16:01, schrieb lulu-...@gmx.de:
> > Hi there,
> > 
> > this is not my proposal, but as RfC was forgotten I ask for your comments
> > now.
> > 
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Playground_Equipment
It has been well discussed on mailing list, tagging, where info on tagging now 
goes
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2010-March/001644.html
Just because it doesn't have RFC in the title doesn't mean it wasn't done

> 
> I think it is not bad,
thanks for your opinion

> but anyway as voting just finished and it was not
> anounced on the list and the tag is not wide used, I would say we should
> set it back to proposed and wait for some response.
> 
What reason other your personal ignorance do you have for restarting a process 
which has been fully completed?

> I do not get why it is too hard to send two emails to some mailing-lists.
The emails were sent.
you might check the wiki, and find that recently someone, not me, changed the 
list for notification to "tagging" from "talk", now that tagging is nearly one 
year old.
You can join here
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

> 
> colliar

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Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Software goes on, brain goes off...

[Liz]

On Tue, 1 Jun 2010, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> strange - in my country I would just ask some one - never fails

you must be a bit older and used to older methods
:)
last time I got asked for where is a street I was out mapping, so oddly 
although 500km from home I did know where the street was, and how to actually 
get a car there.

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Re: [OSM-talk] On the ground rule on the wiki

[Liz]

On Mon, 31 May 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Anthony wrote:
> > I guess the suggestion to "map what's on the ground" is good advice as 
> > long as it's not exclusionary.  But my beef is with people who tell us 
> > to "map what's on the ground" to the exclusion of everything that isn't 
> > on the ground.
> 
> Problem is that whatever is not on the ground is not verifiable; I'd 
> have to take the mapper's word for it. And this opens the door to people 
> inventing stuff.

Specific problem
Bicentennial National Trail 
http://www.nationaltrail.com.au/
can be followed from maps but not signed much on the ground
(one of the Au mappers has been marking this)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Questions regarding the mapping of hiking trails

[Liz]

On Sun, 30 May 2010, Sami Dalouche wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've started contributing hiking data in the ADK, NY.
> However, I have a few questions :
> 
> Let's take the following area, for instance :
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.1458988189697&lon=-73.9613342285156&zo
> om=13
> 
> 1/ There is a trail called "Van Hoevenberg Trail". Am I supposed to add
> a name="Van Hoevenberg property", or name="Van Hoevenberg Trail" one ?
name = Van Hoevenberg Trail
> 
> 2/ Now, let's say that Van hoevenberg trail were continuing after the
> intersection. Would I be supposed to just repeat the name="Van
> Hoevenberg Trail" property, or am I supposed to do something smarter ?
> I read stuff about "relations", but I am unsure on whether this applies
> to this...
At first, just add name=Van Hoevenberg Trail.
A relation could be used here, and can be done later. For a small trail it 
would be overkill

> 
> 3/ Anything else to suggest ?
Enjoy mapping
> 
> thanks !
> Sami Dalouche
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Detailed tagging scheme for railways - India

[Liz]

On Wed, 26 May 2010, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
> Can a station be an isolated dwelling ? Just kidding...
Almost - usually the station master had his own house.
Now if it was isolated it wouldn't get staff either

However as apparently only 4 people now live at Cook, which is an essential 
stop for the train as it refuels here, this could still qualify


http://bit.ly/4LvRJ

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Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures

[Liz]

On Sun, 23 May 2010, 
> cultural differences...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why.

Without wishing to cause offence, we need to accept that there are cultural 
differences. We cannot ever understand them all, but we can accept that we do 
not all see the world the same way.
I think that I understand that in Germany isolated_place is a defined type of 
entity, while in other places it represents a subjective decision.

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[OSM-talk] project of the week

[Liz]

http://opengeodata.org/project-of-the-week-22-may-2010-pushing-up-da

"Pushing up daisies"
Not a well chosen name. 
It turned out to be about gardening, but here "pushing up daisies" is a saying 
which means "dead and buried" (hence turned to fertiliser and making the 
daisies grow).

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Re: [OSM-talk] Detailed tagging scheme for railways - India

[Liz]

On Sun, 23 May 2010, Jens Müller wrote:
> > Rails within a city (which usually serve for mass transit within the
> > city) should be tagged as railway=tram or railway=light_rail. Please add
> > this to the wiki page to prevent somebody else from mapping them on
> > error as railway=rail or something else.
> 
> What do you German S-Bahn lines use? They are used for mass rapid 
> transit. Legally, they are railways.

The massive Sydney rail system used for mass transport is *railway*
They are not light_rail. Tramway implies that the vehicle shares the street 
with the cars and bicycles and trucks.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Detailed tagging scheme for railways - India

[Liz]

On Sun, 23 May 2010, Roland Olbricht wrote:
> - railway=halt is at least in Europe already frequently used with a
> different  meaning: "station" designates stations where trains can begin
> or terminate. "halt" means (usually smaller) stations where trains only
> stop but legally can't begin or end. To make things worse, most mappers
> map either all stations as "station" or they map all small stations
> (regardless of their legal status) as "halt". You have a clear definition
> of the feature (not regularly served), thus I'd strongly encourage you to
> use a different value for it.

Ahh, interesting
Station in Au means it has a platform, and implies an office, a permanent 
employee and hopefully a toilet as well.
Halt means there is no platform, you get to climb down from the train, and 
have to pre-arrange stopping in most places. You do not expect to be able to 
buy a ticket, find a toilet or have any assistance from the local employee.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Help to import Rio de Janeiro city data to OSM - misaligned shapefiles

[Liz]

On Sun, 23 May 2010, Arlindo Pereira wrote:
> As expected, it's a file with the blocks ("quadras") structure. How do you
> think it could be imported into OSM, if useful at all? I mean, we map roads
> and the buildings that are on the blocks, but not the blocks itself. Just
> to exemplify, a place near of where I live:
> 
> http://osm.org/go/OVc0m5mwC--
> 
> And what the shapefile provided me:
> 
> http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/2793/capturadetelajavaopenst.png
> 
> Perhaps if I manually import those polygons to OSM with some
> landuse=residential|comercial tag and draw roads between them manually? Any
> ideas?
someone sorted out this problem with the Queensland land data
They made a WMS layer which could be used with Potlatch (hosted somewhere) or 
JOSM (hosted locally)
Then for places we knew we could draw in the streets between the lines.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data.australia.gov.au/Queensland

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Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures

[Liz]

On Fri, 21 May 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Pieren wrote:
> > place=farm
> > In some countries the official type of a residential area smaller than a
> > hamlet (Germany: Gehöft ).
> > 
> > place=isolated_dwelling
> > In some countries the official type of a residential area smaller than a
> > hamlet (Germany: nicht ein Gehöft
> > ).
> 
> I don't like the "in some countries" stuff. OSM is not organised by
> countries.
> 
> I suggest:
> 
> place=farm - use this for residential areas smaller than a hamlet,
> unless you think that place=isolated_dwelling is more appropriate
> 
> place=isolated_dwelling - use this for residential areas smaller than a
> hamlet, unless you think that place=farm is more appropriate
> 
> You may also use landuse=residential for residential areas or
> landuse=farmyard for farm yards. If someone lives on the farm, either
> tag place=farm and landuse=residential, or use place=isolated_dwelling
> and landuse=farmyard.
> 
> I'm not entirely serious about this. But a little.
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
> 
This started as a "deprecate farmyes/no" thread
because now "solated_dwelling will now replace farm"

these concepts are neither mutually exclusive nor complementary
they overlap
neither one can be used instead of the other

what about the isolated dwelling of the lighthouse keeper?
what about the farm that is not isolated?

I don't find isolated_dwelling useful at all in my view of my country
I accept that others find it useful in their view of their country.
We may not be "organised by country"
but we can't all fit into each others country view.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Geowanking] ?

[Liz]

On Thu, 20 May 2010, Maarten Deen wrote:
> Geowanking?
> Don't me wrong, but wanking does not have a very favourable connotation in
> my book.
> What is geowanking about?
> 
> Regards,
> Maarten
> 

surely it implies a bit of fun?
(white haired from age ;)  )

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Re: [OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures

[Liz]

On Tue, 18 May 2010, Pieren wrote:
> But all isolated farms are isolated_dwellings, no ?
> 
No.
Some isolated farms (called stations) are as large as a hamlet. They are 
isolated in terms of tens of kms from their neighbours. Some appear on regular 
maps as if they were towns
I'm sure that the Argentinians and the Americans have similar farms.

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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo

[Liz]

On Tue, 18 May 2010, Roy Wallace wrote:
> On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 8:49 AM, SteveC  wrote:
> > Yes you could take the existing logo and just make it red or something,
> > but that's just not nearly as appealing as changing it fundamentally
> > because there's a sea of other ideas out there that are worth looking at.
> 
> I think the point is to try to understand what it is that (some)
> people like about the current logo.
> 
> I get the impression it's about story-telling. I.e. some people feel
> the current logo does this well, and they don't want to lose that. If
> we want to please everyone, then designers need to really *hear* that
> feedback, and try again.
> 

The current logo expresses looking closely at the world 
and finding it composed of 0 and 1 
or expressed as binary




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Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?

[Liz]

On Tue, 18 May 2010, pavithran wrote:
> It definitely makes mapping easy in developing areas where most of the
> shops are situated side by side in a small area which is in contrast
> to UK/european shops which occupy large areas .
> 
You are also getting the reduced scale of the zoom levels because of your 
position closer to the Equator.

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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo

[Liz]

On Tue, 18 May 2010, Roy Wallace wrote:
> factory-and-wave for Factory Records.
> 
that was smoke out of the chimney, pollution and that stuff

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Re: [OSM-talk] Quarry or construction?

[Liz]

On Sat, 15 May 2010, Chris Hill wrote:
> Steve Bennett wrote:
> > One of my favourite things about working on openstreetmap is just how
> > much you learn about the world...without ever leaving your computer :)
> 
> One of the things I love about OSM is how it has encouraged me to see so
> many new things and learn so much about my local area by getting out,
> away from my computer.
> 
> Cheers, Chris
> 
>
I think that Steve does cycle too



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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash and open source

[Liz]

On Sat, 15 May 2010, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>  > It's probably the major source of Malware in Windows
> 
> Yeah. The major source of drowning in the Atlantic Ocean is water. BAN 
> water!!11!11o...@wtflolccbysa
> 
don't forget 
oxygen is not only poisonous in some forms but promotes explosions
so ban it too

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Re: [OSM-talk] new logo

[Liz]

On Fri, 14 May 2010, Robert Martinez wrote:
> John Smith wrote:
> > don't mind the current logo, it incorporates the fact that there is
> > bits behind the rendering...
> 
> Isn't that kind of lame in the digital age we live in? :P
> 

looks better than those flag things on the golf course, which is what i 
thought the new proposal resembled

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Re: [OSM-talk] Quarry or construction?

[Liz]

On Fri, 14 May 2010, Steve Bennett wrote:
> Can someone offer some tips on how to distinguish a quarry from a
> construction site? They seem to look pretty similar from the air -
> lots of dirt and vehicle tracks, sometimes piles of dirt.
> 
> Eg: http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-37.946025,145.093174&z=16&t=h&nmd=20100416
> 
> (Note, I'm looking for general tips, not a determination on that
> single instance)
> 
> Steve

curved vehicle tracks suggest quarry
presence of straight lines which suggest buildings under construction
area with large pooled water with copper-ish discolouration suggests quarry

i'd check council minutes for the area and see if you can use a search engine 
to find what this land is used for
Even if you get he street names off another map.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Months-old vandalism needs to be taken care of

[Liz]

On Thu, 6 May 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Tyler Ritchie wrote:
> > That right there says more about the introductory documentation than 
> > really anyone else has been able to articulate.
> 
> I'm struggling to find any method of signing up to OSM and modifying 
> data that makes it look like a game.
> 
well the introductory page on the wiki is not one to help you see OSM as a 
serious project
its messy
it contains all sorts of things which suggest "game"
like the lolcat bit
and "Show me the map! I want to see maps; get out of my way! "
The use of colour all over the page detracts from the actual heading and 
leading explanatory sentence which are lost between the language list and the 
pretty colours below

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Re: [OSM-talk] Philosophy about Autorouting for Cyclists and new key class:bicycle

[Liz]

On Tue, 4 May 2010, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> This is perhaps the most offensive thing I have ever read on these 
> mailing lists, and I think you owe CycleStreets in particular - and 
> those in OSM involved in cycle campaigning in general - an apology.
> 
I think you took the quote right out of context. 
In the reply-to it was 4 mails away from the one which you were actually 
quoting.

anyway I cycle and I drive so I don't need to escape my cage :)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Philosophy about Autorouting for Cyclists and new key class:bicycle

[Liz]

On Tue, 4 May 2010, Ben Laenen wrote:
> Here's the thing: we just do not map unofficial routes. Only the ones that
>  are  signposted. There are enough sites where you can submit your route
>  suggestions, and there's no reason why this should be in the OSM database.
> 
-1

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Re: [OSM-talk] bulk merge of duplicate points

[Liz]

On Thu, 29 Apr 2010, Robin Paulson wrote:
> can this be made to run in a bulk fashion? i was under the impression
> after running the check, it required each set of duplicate nodes to be
> accepted for merging. we will potentially have tens of thousands of
> duplicates, so this isn't really on
> 
It would help if you thought a little more about duplicate things on the one 
position.
E.g. Service Station
could have 5 or 6 types of fuel, an address, a phone number, notes about 
ancillary services - car wash, groceries, telephone, atm machine, 
A number of these are "amenity=xxx" and if you merge the nodes you will have 
data loss, or difficulty in post-processing data if you string it all 
together.
The next category are things that are at different heights in the same 
location - a multistorey building with basement parking, ground level shops, 
upper levels offices and on the roof various aerials.
How will you merge all of those and not lose information?


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Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (Trolley)

[Liz]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2010, Adrien Pavie wrote:
> Hello, I send a proposal "Trolley" (in part "shop") and I send this RFC to
>  get opinions about this. This is a direct link :
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Trolley
> 
> The tag is for know if a shop has trolleys. All the details are in the
>  wiki. Thanks in advance for comments.
> 
> Adrien Pavie (alias Dri60)
> 

What about airport trolleys/carts/trundlers?

Mapping the location of those would be useful.



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Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (Trolley)

[Liz]

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, Kev js1982 wrote:
> With regards to the fee how would you tag the majority of uk
> supermarkets where the trolleys accept both £1 and €1 coins? This
> seams to be pretty standard on all trolleys introduced since approx
> 1998.
> 
I have a token which can used in a trolley/cart instead of real cash

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Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (Trolley)

[Liz]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2010, Adrien Pavie wrote:
> Alex S. :
> Why would shops have light-rail trains?
> 
> Yes, it's for shopping cart or caddie, trains in a shop could be strange
>  ^^'.
> 
because its a model train shop :)

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Re: [OSM-talk] konqueror does not display openstreetmap anymore

[Liz]

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010, Renaud MICHEL wrote:
> Le dimanche 18 avril 2010 à 10:59, Rainer Dorsch a écrit :
> > I noticed that konqueror stopped displaying the openstreetmap maps some
> > time  ago. The page of http://www.openstreetmap.org/ is loaded, but the
> > screen stays empty (see screenshot at http://bokomoko.de/~rd/osm.png ).
> 
> No problem here with konqueror 4.4.2
> 
and 4.3.2 working here
which version Rainer?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting

[Liz]

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010, Upliner wrote:
> 2010/4/17 Kirill Bestoujev :
> > Frederik gave a great advice - if you say that wiki is not a law, just
> > recommendations, then do not take it seriously, let those who want write
> > what they want.
> >
> > Complaining is silly - there is no law, so there can be no punishment.
> 
> Hey, wait! You've mentioned somthing like "try to solve problems".
> Ignoring is rather un-solution than solution. Can I try to solve the
> problem another way, rather than complaining?
> 
We have started to discuss different solutions, but we haven't really had much 
feedback from the PocketGis people on which solutions are more suitable.

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Re: [OSM-talk] sanity check for maintaining GPS tracks

[Liz]

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Julio Costa Zambelli wrote:
> Is there an application that someone can recommend to manually "clean" the
> track before uploading it to OSM?
> 
Viking can be used to do this. It's a Linux app.

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Re: [OSM-talk] User staehler has been duplicating data from google maps

[Liz]

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> John Smith wrote:
> > Using this map tile comparison, you can see not only the same name
> > data but the same vector data:
> 
> What was the result of your attempts at communication with the user?
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
>
from talk-au list
Hi,

I have made contact - I hope they understand english. They seem to be  
german though I don't know - that's my best guess, not being a  
linguist at all.

I await a response.


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Re: [OSM-talk] User staehler has been duplicating data from google maps

[Liz]

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, John Smith wrote:
> Using this map tile comparison, you can see not only the same name
> data but the same vector data:
> 
> http://sautter.com/map/?zoom=16&lat=-33.35369&lon=138.20736&layers=B0TF
> 
> 
> This user also duplicated fuel locations.
> 
> http://osm.org/go/uIWLpgodV--
> 
> This user has made a lot of edits over a very wide area, based on
> current investigations we can only assume a lot if not all of his
> edits are infringing.
> 
> Can someone please revert at least this change set:
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/4338519
> 
>
confirmed by me
at the town "Crystal Brook" there are many places on Google which do not agree 
with the council map I downloaded for comparison
in fact it is Easter Egg Land, with Google having the same road name for at 
least 17 different streets, and the local council using ti once, and 3 of them 
copied into OSM.



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