Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:48:33 +0100, Jonathan Bennett wrote: You should use the suburb tag -- that's what it means. The text size problem is an issue with that particular render, and you shouldn't tag for the renderer, which using a different tag just to get different text size would be. If you'd like to see the text size issue fixed, you can file a bug at http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ I posted my first osm bug: http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2291 If you can please check if I posted it correctly. Thank you. -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 18:25:51 +0200, Pieren wrote: No, it's not a renderer problem, it is just different things. I'm not a native english speaker but if I translate suburb and quarters, it is two different things. The first applies to cities (maybe big towns as well), the second is much smaller. Instead of reusing improperly existing tags or creating complex combinations (with e.g. tag population) or re-introduce the infamous is_in tag, we should simply create a new tag place=quarters or place=district which could apply to villages or small towns and where suburb is simply inappropriate. I also would argue that we need place=quarters tag, as there are also places of city that I live on that are administrative separate places within a city, and clearly defined. -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:46:53 +, Valent Turkovic wrote: I also would argue that we need place=quarters tag, as there are also places of city that I live on that are administrative separate places within a city, and clearly defined. Nevermind, I found adminitrative layer 10 tag: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ Key:boundary#10_admin_level_values_for_specific_countries -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
On Sat, 12 Sep 2009, Frankie Roberto wrote: Well I mentioned it before, but I really believe that for something like the French Quarter, it is better to use locality. I've always used suburb, but locality might be a good alternative. Another question is: is it better to map quarters as areas or nodes? they are not a locality in the English I know, and although resident in australia, I am a native speaker of English, To me these Quarters, usually a part of an old city, need a separate tag. We could then use that tag for Chinatown in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
On a similar line how would you tag the zones in Nottingham city centre? These are aimed at navigation (basically if you are heading for somewhere in the victoria zone follow the red square with queen victoria in it for a suitable car park) These zones don't match with the suburbs (lace market zone includes part of hockley as well as all of the lace market, the broadmarsh zone is larger tham the former suburb or the shopping centre there now, Hockley lies in victoria and lace market so they certainly are not suburbs On 9/13/09, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Sat, 12 Sep 2009, Frankie Roberto wrote: Well I mentioned it before, but I really believe that for something like the French Quarter, it is better to use locality. I've always used suburb, but locality might be a good alternative. Another question is: is it better to map quarters as areas or nodes? they are not a locality in the English I know, and although resident in australia, I am a native speaker of English, To me these Quarters, usually a part of an old city, need a separate tag. We could then use that tag for Chinatown in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Sent from my mobile device ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
John Smith wrote: If it's a well defined area you just draw a administrative=boundary round it ? You can't use an administrative boundary when it isn't one. Emilie Laffray signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
2009/9/14 Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com: John Smith wrote: If it's a well defined area you just draw a administrative=boundary round it ? You can't use an administrative boundary when it isn't one. boundary=area? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
2009/9/11 Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com Any ideas why we don't have quarter tag? Well I mentioned it before, but I really believe that for something like the French Quarter, it is better to use locality. I've always used suburb, but locality might be a good alternative. Another question is: is it better to map quarters as areas or nodes? Somewhere like Paris has distinct boundaries to it arrondisments (which also define post code areas), but in others cities, 'quarters' are more colloquial, used informally, or in the marketing of a city. For instance, in Manchester, there's a map of the city divided into quarters published by the tourism board (http://visitmanchester.com/maps.aspx#citymap_anchor) but most of those boundaries look pretty made up to me (and some of the names as well). So in these cases, it's probably easier to map as a node. But if there is a rough boundary, that's reasonably well understood by locals, but has no legal or physical basis, then is it ok to map that as an area? Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
Frankie Roberto wrote: I've always used suburb, but locality might be a good alternative. Another question is: is it better to map quarters as areas or nodes? Somewhere like Paris has distinct boundaries to it arrondisments (which also define post code areas), but in others cities, 'quarters' are more colloquial, used informally, or in the marketing of a city. For instance, in Manchester, there's a map of the city divided into quarters published by the tourism board (http://visitmanchester.com/maps.aspx#citymap_anchor) but most of those boundaries look pretty made up to me (and some of the names as well). So in these cases, it's probably easier to map as a node. But if there is a rough boundary, that's reasonably well understood by locals, but has no legal or physical basis, then is it ok to map that as an area? In Paris, the arrondissements are an administrative area with an admin level of 10. Each of those arrondissements have a townhall. Therefore they can't be a locality. If you are talking about Montmartres, then yes, you can use locality. I believe that locality is better mapped as a node as the boundaries are usually fuzzy. Emilie Laffray signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
2009/9/12 Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com: 2009/9/11 Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com Any ideas why we don't have quarter tag? Well I mentioned it before, but I really believe that for something like the French Quarter, it is better to use locality. I've always used suburb, but locality might be a good alternative. From the map features page: place=locality An unpopulated, named place. I'm pretty sure what you guys are discussing involves large numbers of people, so please don't abuse this tag which is already used for a completely different purpose already. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
John Smith wrote: From the map features page: place=localityAn unpopulated, named place. I'm pretty sure what you guys are discussing involves large numbers of people, so please don't abuse this tag which is already used for a completely different purpose already. From the same (I suppose) page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Locality The place http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place=*locality* tag is useful for places that have a specific name, but do not necessarily have any geographic feature or population centre that could be used to attach a name tag to. Please note that he NOT NECESSARILY, which implies, I believe, that you could have population associated with it. Of course, I might be wrong since English is not my main language. I am probably misunderstanding the examples that are given especially the last line. A quartier is not necessarily big; actually, in France, they tend to be rather small with hundreds of people contained in a fuzzy area. They are very small areas usually. My hometown of 20K inhabitants have at least 20 of those named areas (The density is quite high due to some appartments complex). Emilie Laffray signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
2009/9/12 Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com: John Smith wrote: From the map features page: place=locality An unpopulated, named place. I'm pretty sure what you guys are discussing involves large numbers of people, so please don't abuse this tag which is already used for a completely different purpose already. From the same (I suppose) page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Locality The place http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place=*locality* tag is useful for places that have a specific name, but do not necessarily have any geographic feature or population centre that could be used to attach a name tag to. Please note that he NOT NECESSARILY, which implies, I believe, that you could have population associated with it. Of course, I might be wrong since English is not my main language. I am probably misunderstanding the examples that are given especially the last line. A quartier is not necessarily big; actually, in France, they tend to be rather small with hundreds of people contained in a fuzzy area. They are very small areas usually. My hometown of 20K inhabitants have at least 20 of those named areas (The density is quite high due to some appartments complex). I wouldn't interpret it as that, I would have said a ghost town, ie a town that once existed but no one lives there any more. Any place with people is either a hamlet, village, town, suburb or city. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
John Smith wrote: I wouldn't interpret it as that, I would have said a ghost town, ie a town that once existed but no one lives there any more. Any place with people is either a hamlet, village, town, suburb or city. I don't think I am interpreting. I think I am just reading the text and looking at the examples. Those quarters are not administrative areas, but they are named areas, which happen to contain people. Hamlet, village, town, suburb, city are administrative areas. If I remember correctly, you have quite a few of those suburbs in Australia, which are actually used for addressing. Google Reverse geocoding is full of those since they imported Australia data; they even have their own postal code, yet, they are suburbs of Sydney, Canberra, Melbourne, etc We can't use suburbs for those areas in France, as it wouldn't make any sense at all. Anyway, when you look at the examples, you can see that it is used for named areas, which tends to be fuzzy in location, which are not one of the other places. Emilie Laffray signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
Hi there, I'm wondering how to map different quarters of some city, town and villages. Currently on wiki I only found place=suburb tag and I see that it is used also for mapping city's quarters. Only issue is that when you map quarter of some town or village currently the quarter has bigger font than name of village or town. Example here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=45.4886lon=18.0925zoom=14layers=B000FTF Cheers! -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:17:25 +0100, Emilie Laffray wrote: We discussed it some time ago on the French mailing list. We decided to use place=locality when it was not an administrative area of any kind. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Locality Wiki is not clear at all in this regard, why did you choose to do that and not update wiki? Can you show me some example how you mapped quarters of some smaller town or village? -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
Valent Turkovic wrote: Currently on wiki I only found place=suburb tag and I see that it is used also for mapping city's quarters. Only issue is that when you map quarter of some town or village currently the quarter has bigger font than name of village or town. You should use the suburb tag -- that's what it means. The text size problem is an issue with that particular render, and you shouldn't tag for the renderer, which using a different tag just to get different text size would be. If you'd like to see the text size issue fixed, you can file a bug at http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ -- Jonathan (Jonobennett) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
Jonathan Bennett wrote: Valent Turkovic wrote: Currently on wiki I only found place=suburb tag and I see that it is used also for mapping city's quarters. Only issue is that when you map quarter of some town or village currently the quarter has bigger font than name of village or town. You should use the suburb tag -- that's what it means. The text size problem is an issue with that particular render, and you shouldn't tag for the renderer, which using a different tag just to get different text size would be. If you'd like to see the text size issue fixed, you can file a bug at http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ Wiki says differently (that it should be used only for place=city!!!) (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dsuburb) ...Areas of a city (place=city) are usually well-known or easily observable when passing through. It is often not clear though the precise administrative status or the exact size. Therefore, using place=town or place=village may either be inappropriate or plain inaccurate. Map making software should render any corresponding name tag value in a font with less emphasis than that used with place=city or, the case of large-scale regional maps, suppress rendering entirely... Maybe, it's time for tag microsuburb? which can be used with place=town and place=village? Kost ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
Emilie Laffray wrote: 2009/9/11 Valent Turkovic valent.turko...@gmail.com Hi there, I'm wondering how to map different quarters of some city, town and villages. Currently on wiki I only found place=suburb tag and I see that it is used also for mapping city's quarters. Only issue is that when you map quarter of some town or village currently the quarter has bigger font than name of village or town. Example here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=45.4886lon=18.0925zoom=14layers=B000 FTF We discussed it some time ago on the French mailing list. We decided to use place=locality when it was not an administrative area of any kind. In Belgium we use place=hamlet for them. It's probably skewing the definition of hamlet a bit but: (a) locality is for place names - not linked to a place where people live. Although it may sometimes be unclear whether that's the case or not -- a piece of land which had a name before houses were built there could have kept its name, but now it's a quarter. So actually it's not skewing the definition of hamlet too much: many of those quarters used to be hamlets but just got merged into a bigger village or town. (b) using suburb would also be skewing its definition a bit if you'd use it for quarters in small villages. The wiki page of suburb says it's for place=city suburbs (i.e. considerably larger entities than quarters), and renderers share that thought Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
On 09/11/2009 10:06 AM, Vlatko Kosturjak wrote: Jonathan Bennett wrote: Valent Turkovic wrote: Currently on wiki I only found place=suburb tag and I see that it is used also for mapping city's quarters. Only issue is that when you map quarter of some town or village currently the quarter has bigger font than name of village or town. Maybe, it's time for tag microsuburb? which can be used with place=town and place=village? Sounds to me like a renderer problem, not a case for a new tag. -Alex Mauer “hawke” signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
On 09/11/2009 10:54 AM, Craig Wallace wrote: Why? How does the renderer know whether its a large suburb that's within a city, or a small suburb that's part of a town or village (or part of a larger suburb). As you would want these to be shown at different zoom levels, with different font sizes etc. I know you can map the suburb as an area, to show its size, but that isn't always practical. Many suburbs don't have clearly defined boundaries, so its easiest just to use a node in the middle of it. I don’t think it's necessary to map the suburb as an area; only the place it’s within. If a suburb (node) is within a town (area), then render it smaller than one which is within a city (area). -Alex Mauer “hawke” signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 5:54 PM, Craig Wallace craig...@fastmail.fm wrote: Sounds to me like a renderer problem, not a case for a new tag. -Alex Mauer “hawke” Why? How does the renderer know whether its a large suburb that's within a city, or a small suburb that's part of a town or village (or part of a larger suburb). As you would want these to be shown at different zoom levels, with different font sizes etc. I know you can map the suburb as an area, to show its size, but that isn't always practical. Many suburbs don't have clearly defined boundaries, so its easiest just to use a node in the middle of it. Maybe you could use something like the is_in tag? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:is_in That lists options for is_in:city= etc So a place=suburb tagged as is_in:city=* would be rendered larger than one tagged as is_in:town= or is_in:village etc. No, it's not a renderer problem, it is just different things. I'm not a native english speaker but if I translate suburb and quarters, it is two different things. The first applies to cities (maybe big towns as well), the second is much smaller. Instead of reusing improperly existing tags or creating complex combinations (with e.g. tag population) or re-introduce the infamous is_in tag, we should simply create a new tag place=quarters or place=district which could apply to villages or small towns and where suburb is simply inappropriate. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Valent Turkovic valent.turko...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:58 PM, Alex Mauer ha...@hawkesnest.net wrote: On 09/11/2009 11:25 AM, Pieren wrote: No, it's not a renderer problem, it is just different things. I'm not a native english speaker but if I translate suburb and quarters, it is two different things. I can’t actually find any definition of “quarters”, but the definition that people have used in this thread fits with the definition of “suburb” as used within OSM. It’s not helped by the multiple definitions of “suburb”: Either a separate city (legally) which is in a sense a “satellite” of a larger one, or merely a subsection of a city. The relevant wikipedia article explains it fairly well. -Alex Mauer “hawke” Please correct me if I'm wrong, but quarter is a part of the city, I found one definition: Quarter: A specific district or section, as of a city: the French Quarter. Definition of suburb: 1. A usually residential area or community outlying a city. 2. suburbs The usually residential region around a major city; the environs. That might be the dictionary (or maybe wiki) definition of a suburb. But in practice we map what you describe as quarter as place=suburb in OSM. Suburbs don't always have a legal status (except when combined with admin_level=*). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to map quarters?
Valent Turkovic wrote: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but quarter is a part of the city, I found one definition: Quarter: A specific district or section, as of a city: the French Quarter. Definition of suburb: 1. A usually residential area or community outlying a city. 2. suburbs The usually residential region around a major city; the environs. So there is more than clear difference. Any ideas why we don't have quarter tag? Well I mentioned it before, but I really believe that for something like the French Quarter, it is better to use locality. Emilie Laffray signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
