Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Warin]

On 05/04/19 08:02, Ian Sergeant wrote:

Hi Sebastian,

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm sure we're all well intentioned.

If I understand your proposal, what you're saying is we build a wiki 
page that lists the relevant authority and what should not be mapped 
in that area.  Then a local mapper would check against that when 
mapping significant local features?


So that raises two issues I see.

Firstly, since it's defined in the negative it relies on someone 
seeking out the local authority and recording their wishes. Rather 
than imposing a positive obligation to seek permission. In that way it 
seems a little different to what others seem to be proposing.


Secondly, we may end up with a wiki page with the areas and 
significant features all laid out.  Which may be counter to what we're 
trying to achieve here.


+1 ...

Usually it will be a large area - many square kilometres rather than a 
small area.
The name of the 'tribe' should be enough for 'local' mappers to 
determine the area, some areas overlap which is a problem as you would 
need permission from both.





Ian.

From: Sebastian S.
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org, Graeme Fitzpatrick, Ian Sergeant
Cc: OSM-Au


I second that the elders wishes should be respected.

With regards to documenting.
One way would be to mark the local indigenous area/tribe/... And then 
outline in the wiki what should not be mapped in order to respect the 
wishes. I recall a recent blog post or Diary entry regarding 
indigenous communities mapping.


In a sense this falls in the same category as 'I don't want my 
backyard shed or pool mapped from satellite images'. Although the 
cultural aspects are not the same :-)


In some areas backyard pools can form a significant fire fighting 
resource .. and there is some merit in mapping them. Usually the pool 
owner signifies permission for this by placing a small sign at the 
property entrance that fire fighters can see.


--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

On 3 April 2019 8:17:25 am AEDT, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
 wrote:



On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 20:27, Ian Sergeant <mailto:inas66%2b...@gmail.com>> wrote:

How do we actually contact "local elders"?


Would have to be done "on the ground" in that local area


  Where do we record their consent?


Possibly in Notes? Maybe the Oz Data Catalogue page 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_data_catalogue or similar?



  What if they change their minds?


Then I think we would need to delete the entries, similar to the way 
that you can request your premises not be shown on Google Maps. I 
have seen a comment on the Tagging list that some town in the US 
requested that all it's minor streets be deleted from all online maps 
to prevent rat-runners from driving down them!




Are we saying other mappers should delete these sites if they see 
them on the map?  How do they know if approval was obtained?


I would hope that people have done things "properly". As mentioned 
though, if the site is advertised / signposted, then it's fine to 
map. But if you're walking in the Kimberley & find a cave full of 
paintings, then you should ask for approval before mapping them. This 
was discussed a while back about mapping a track up in that area, but 
I can't find the reference in the archives


is this form of censorship practised anywhere else in OSM - maybe 
for other indigenous people - that we could copy their model?


I don't know? I'll post the question on the Tagging list.


P.S. It's Strait - not "Straight".


Thanks! Corrected :-)

Thanks

Graeme





___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au



___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Ian Sergeant]

Hi Sebastian,

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm sure we're all well intentioned.

If I understand your proposal, what you're saying is we build a wiki page that 
lists the relevant authority and what should not be mapped in that area.  Then 
a local mapper would check against that when mapping significant local features?

So that raises two issues I see.

Firstly, since it's defined in the negative it relies on someone seeking out 
the local authority and recording their wishes.  Rather than imposing a 
positive obligation to seek permission.  In that way it seems a little 
different to what others seem to be proposing.

Secondly, we may end up with a wiki page with the areas and significant 
features all laid out.  Which may be counter to what we're trying to achieve 
here.

Ian.

From: Sebastian S.
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org, Graeme Fitzpatrick, Ian Sergeant
Cc: OSM-Au


I second that the elders wishes should be respected.

With regards to documenting.
One way would be to mark the local indigenous area/tribe/... And then outline 
in the wiki what should not be mapped in order to respect the wishes. I recall 
a recent blog post or Diary entry regarding indigenous communities mapping.

In a sense this falls in the same category as 'I don't want my backyard shed or 
pool mapped from satellite images'. Although the cultural aspects are not the 
same :-)

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

On 3 April 2019 8:17:25 am AEDT, Graeme Fitzpatrick  
wrote:


On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 20:27, Ian Sergeant 
mailto:inas66%2b...@gmail.com>> wrote:
How do we actually contact "local elders"?

Would have to be done "on the ground" in that local area

  Where do we record their consent?

Possibly in Notes? Maybe the Oz Data Catalogue page 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_data_catalogue or similar?

  What if they change their minds?

Then I think we would need to delete the entries, similar to the way that you 
can request your premises not be shown on Google Maps. I have seen a comment on 
the Tagging list that some town in the US requested that all it's minor streets 
be deleted from all online maps to prevent rat-runners from driving down them!


Are we saying other mappers should delete these sites if they see them on the 
map?  How do they know if approval was obtained?

I would hope that people have done things "properly". As mentioned though, if 
the site is advertised / signposted, then it's fine to map. But if you're 
walking in the Kimberley & find a cave full of paintings, then you should ask 
for approval before mapping them. This was discussed a while back about mapping 
a track up in that area, but I can't find the reference in the archives

is this form of censorship practised anywhere else in OSM - maybe for other 
indigenous people - that we could copy their model?

I don't know? I'll post the question on the Tagging list.

P.S. It's Strait - not "Straight".

Thanks! Corrected :-)

Thanks

Graeme


___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Sebastian S.]

I second that the elders wishes should be respected.

With regards to documenting.
One way would be to mark the local indigenous area/tribe/... And then outline 
in the wiki what should not be mapped in order to respect the wishes. I recall 
a recent blog post or Diary entry regarding indigenous communities mapping.

In a sense this falls in the same category as 'I don't want my backyard shed or 
pool mapped from satellite images'. Although the cultural aspects are not the 
same :-)

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

On 3 April 2019 8:17:25 am AEDT, Graeme Fitzpatrick  
wrote:
>On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 20:27, Ian Sergeant  wrote:
>
>> How do we actually contact "local elders"?
>>
>
>Would have to be done "on the ground" in that local area
>
>
>>   Where do we record their consent?
>>
>
>Possibly in Notes? Maybe the Oz Data Catalogue page
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_data_catalogue or
>similar?
>
>  What if they change their minds?
>>
>
>Then I think we would need to delete the entries, similar to the way
>that
>you can request your premises not be shown on Google Maps. I have seen
>a
>comment on the Tagging list that some town in the US requested that all
>it's minor streets be deleted from all online maps to prevent
>rat-runners
>from driving down them!
>
>
>>
>> Are we saying other mappers should delete these sites if they see
>them on
>> the map?  How do they know if approval was obtained?
>>
>
>I would hope that people have done things "properly". As mentioned
>though,
>if the site is advertised / signposted, then it's fine to map. But if
>you're walking in the Kimberley & find a cave full of paintings, then
>you
>should ask for approval before mapping them. This was discussed a while
>back about mapping a track up in that area, but I can't find the
>reference
>in the archives
>
>
>> is this form of censorship practised anywhere else in OSM - maybe for
>> other indigenous people - that we could copy their model?
>>
>
>I don't know? I'll post the question on the Tagging list.
>
>
>> P.S. It's Strait - not "Straight".
>>
>
>Thanks! Corrected :-)
>
>Thanks
>
>Graeme
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 at 07:17, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> This was discussed a while back about mapping a track up in that area, but
> I can't find the reference in the archives
>

Found it!

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2018-August/012029.html

Which mentioned "I have just had an email back to say the elders do not
want the trail mapped at this time"

Also spotted
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2018-January/011634.html

"we should be attempting to engage with out local indigenous community and
asking them what their local language is and what features in OSM (or that
we can add to OSM) are important to them."

Thanks

Graeme
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 20:27, Ian Sergeant  wrote:

> How do we actually contact "local elders"?
>

Would have to be done "on the ground" in that local area


>   Where do we record their consent?
>

Possibly in Notes? Maybe the Oz Data Catalogue page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_data_catalogue or similar?

  What if they change their minds?
>

Then I think we would need to delete the entries, similar to the way that
you can request your premises not be shown on Google Maps. I have seen a
comment on the Tagging list that some town in the US requested that all
it's minor streets be deleted from all online maps to prevent rat-runners
from driving down them!


>
> Are we saying other mappers should delete these sites if they see them on
> the map?  How do they know if approval was obtained?
>

I would hope that people have done things "properly". As mentioned though,
if the site is advertised / signposted, then it's fine to map. But if
you're walking in the Kimberley & find a cave full of paintings, then you
should ask for approval before mapping them. This was discussed a while
back about mapping a track up in that area, but I can't find the reference
in the archives


> is this form of censorship practised anywhere else in OSM - maybe for
> other indigenous people - that we could copy their model?
>

I don't know? I'll post the question on the Tagging list.


> P.S. It's Strait - not "Straight".
>

Thanks! Corrected :-)

Thanks

Graeme
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Ian Sergeant]

How do we actually contact "local elders"?  Where do we record their
consent?  What if they change their minds?

Are we saying other mappers should delete these sites if they see them on
the map?  How do they know if approval was obtained?

Or is this just intended as a guideline, and not be enforced?

It seems all a bit impractical to me.  The information is out there.

is this form of censorship practised anywhere else in OSM - maybe for other
indigenous people - that we could copy their model?

Ian.
P.S. It's Strait - not "Straight".

On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 15:14, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 13:27, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, please.
>
>
> OK.
>
> Added this:
>
> Aboriginal & Torres Straight Islander sites
>
> Please practice extreme care when mapping sites (e.g rock art, ceremonial
> places) that may be of significance to Aboriginal or Torres Straight
> Islander peoples.
>
> Only map those sites that are sign-posted, or have been publicly
> advertised.
>
> In all other cases, please consult with the local Elders before mapping
> any site, & abide by their wishes if they say they don't want them mapped.
>
> Thoughts or comments?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 14:54, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  rock_painting and rock_art as discussed?
>

Yep! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Warin]

On 01/04/19 15:14, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 13:27, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:



I'm busy trying to get site:type in order ..


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:site_type#Other_undocumented_.28suggested.29_values


Wow!

Hadn't looked at it previously

Good luck with that one - you're a real glutton for punishment! :-)



Not doing it all .. just the bits on 'rock art' etc.. and the occasional 
thing that sticks in my craw...



Oh.. PS I'd add how to do carvings .. petroglyph 
 
falls right off my tongue and into never land, rock_painting and 
rock_art as discussed?
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 13:27, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I'm busy trying to get site:type in order ..
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:site_type#Other_undocumented_.28suggested.29_values


Wow!

Hadn't looked at it previously

Good luck with that one - you're a real glutton for punishment! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 13:27, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Yes, please.


OK.

Added this:

Aboriginal & Torres Straight Islander sites

Please practice extreme care when mapping sites (e.g rock art, ceremonial
places) that may be of significance to Aboriginal or Torres Straight
Islander peoples.

Only map those sites that are sign-posted, or have been publicly advertised.

In all other cases, please consult with the local Elders before mapping any
site, & abide by their wishes if they say they don't want them mapped.

Thoughts or comments?

Thanks

Graeme
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Warin]

On 01/04/19 14:18, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

Thanks everybody!

Now, how?

"Australian guidelines"?



Yes, please. I'm busy trying to get site:type in order ..

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:site_type#Other_undocumented_.28suggested.29_values


___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks everybody!

Now, how?

"Australian guidelines"?

Thanks

Graeme


On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 10:08, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

> I agree.
>
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 10:59, Ewen Hill  wrote:
>
>> This should be documented clearly. Whilst there is a lot of well known
>> art work, there are a significant number of sacred areas that should not be
>> mapped or identified due to the cultural significance. We only need one
>> person transgressing due to OSM to cause offence. I have just worked with
>> the local owners during an emergency and it is amazing the amount of
>> artifacts that were identified that could disappear if mapped accurately by
>> trophy hunters.
>>
>> Ewen
>>
>> On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 10:38, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 08:51, Gavin Scott  wrote:
>>>

 The issue about the sacred-ness -it is not the job of OSM to make this
 call. If you think an item is too private to map (perhaps such as a farmers
 internal road network) then don't map it. Tthis is the mappers call.

>>>
>>> There has been discussion here previously about mapping ceremonial
>>> trails, & the consensus was that it should only be done with the agreement
>>> & approval of the local Elders, so the same principle should apply to these
>>> sites.
>>>
>>> Should that be documented as OSM (maybe AU?) policy, or left to the
>>> discretion of individual mappers?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Graeme
>>> ___
>>> Talk-au mailing list
>>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Warm Regards
>>
>> Ewen Hill
>> Internet Development Australia
>> ___
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Andrew Harvey]

I agree.

On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 10:59, Ewen Hill  wrote:

> This should be documented clearly. Whilst there is a lot of well known art
> work, there are a significant number of sacred areas that should not be
> mapped or identified due to the cultural significance. We only need one
> person transgressing due to OSM to cause offence. I have just worked with
> the local owners during an emergency and it is amazing the amount of
> artifacts that were identified that could disappear if mapped accurately by
> trophy hunters.
>
> Ewen
>
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 10:38, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 08:51, Gavin Scott  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The issue about the sacred-ness -it is not the job of OSM to make this
>>> call. If you think an item is too private to map (perhaps such as a farmers
>>> internal road network) then don't map it. Tthis is the mappers call.
>>>
>>
>> There has been discussion here previously about mapping ceremonial
>> trails, & the consensus was that it should only be done with the agreement
>> & approval of the local Elders, so the same principle should apply to these
>> sites.
>>
>> Should that be documented as OSM (maybe AU?) policy, or left to the
>> discretion of individual mappers?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>> ___
>> Talk-au mailing list
>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>
>
>
> --
> Warm Regards
>
> Ewen Hill
> Internet Development Australia
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Ewen Hill]

This should be documented clearly. Whilst there is a lot of well known art
work, there are a significant number of sacred areas that should not be
mapped or identified due to the cultural significance. We only need one
person transgressing due to OSM to cause offence. I have just worked with
the local owners during an emergency and it is amazing the amount of
artifacts that were identified that could disappear if mapped accurately by
trophy hunters.

Ewen

On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 10:38, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 08:51, Gavin Scott  wrote:
>
>>
>> The issue about the sacred-ness -it is not the job of OSM to make this
>> call. If you think an item is too private to map (perhaps such as a farmers
>> internal road network) then don't map it. Tthis is the mappers call.
>>
>
> There has been discussion here previously about mapping ceremonial trails,
> & the consensus was that it should only be done with the agreement &
> approval of the local Elders, so the same principle should apply to these
> sites.
>
> Should that be documented as OSM (maybe AU?) policy, or left to the
> discretion of individual mappers?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>


-- 
Warm Regards

Ewen Hill
Internet Development Australia
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Michael Gratton]

On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 09:37, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
 wrote:
Should that be documented as OSM (maybe AU?) policy, or left to the 
discretion of individual mappers?


Definitely documented as such.

--
⊨ Michael Gratton, Percept Wrangler.
⚙ 



___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 08:51, Gavin Scott  wrote:

>
> The issue about the sacred-ness -it is not the job of OSM to make this
> call. If you think an item is too private to map (perhaps such as a farmers
> internal road network) then don't map it. Tthis is the mappers call.
>

There has been discussion here previously about mapping ceremonial trails,
& the consensus was that it should only be done with the agreement &
approval of the local Elders, so the same principle should apply to these
sites.

Should that be documented as OSM (maybe AU?) policy, or left to the
discretion of individual mappers?

Thanks

Graeme
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

[talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Gavin Scott]

>
> I have tagged a variety of well known art sites in Kakadu.
>
I have tagged them as historic=archeological site, documented here
 and
that is clearly approriate.
Also tagged as tourism=artwork documented here
 and I believe
this to be appropriate as they constitute public art with touristic
significance - you travel as a tourist to this area and a major drawcard is
the rock art. They are in the public space.

The issue about the sacred-ness -it is not the job of OSM to make this
call. If you think an item is too private to map (perhaps such as a farmers
internal road network) then don't map it. Tthis is the mappers call.

I don't understand the discussion about rock shelters. They are a creation
of nature and happen everywhere. Who cares whether you cook in them or
merely seek shelter from the weather. I would suggest creating rock art
takes more than a day and therefore they were all cooking sites.

Ancient art in its pure manifestation is of historic significance as well
as fascinating to many people.


>
> > Are you only tagging those sites that are open & already advertised as
> > tourism sites?
> >
> > I think that would be the safest way of doing it, because they are
> > considered sacred sites, so we should be taking care to not show the
> > location of things that the local peoples may not want shown?
> >
>
> The ones I've seen mapped so far are well signposted and marked out, widely
> accepted as public knowledge.
> -- next part --
>
>
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites.

[Andrew Harvey]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 09:12, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> a rock engraving with no paint => site_type=petroglyph
> a rock painting with no engraving => site_type=rock_painting
>
> Where it is both painted and engraved? site_type=rock_art
>

Yes, that looks fine to me.
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites.

[Warin]

On 01/04/19 08:41, Andrew Harvey wrote:
On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 07:49, Graeme Fitzpatrick > wrote:



Are you only tagging those sites that are open & already
advertised as tourism sites?

I think that would be the safest way of doing it, because they are
considered sacred sites, so we should be taking care to not show
the location of things that the local peoples may not want shown?


The ones I've seen mapped so far are well signposted and marked out, 
widely accepted as public knowledge.


Yep. Only those sites that are commonly known have been mapped.

Others, even some I know of and some with websites, are not on the map 
nor commonly visited.


---
I think my take is;

a rock engraving with no paint => site_type=petroglyph
a rock painting with no engraving => site_type=rock_painting

Where it is both painted and engraved? site_type=rock_art

???



___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites.

[Andrew Harvey]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 07:49, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> Are you only tagging those sites that are open & already advertised as
> tourism sites?
>
> I think that would be the safest way of doing it, because they are
> considered sacred sites, so we should be taking care to not show the
> location of things that the local peoples may not want shown?
>

The ones I've seen mapped so far are well signposted and marked out, widely
accepted as public knowledge.
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites.

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 31 Mar 2019 at 10:38, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I don't like the tourism tag for them so much, prefer the historic as that
> better describes them?
>

I've got no real input into what "type" of art we call them, but one
thought re the tourism side of things.

Are you only tagging those sites that are open & already advertised as
tourism sites?

I think that would be the safest way of doing it, because they are
considered sacred sites, so we should be taking care to not show the
location of things that the local peoples may not want shown?

Thanks

Graeme
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

[talk-au] Aboriginal art sites

[Gavin Scott]

I don't think site_type = cave_painting is correct as aboriginal art is not
usually in cave.
Aboriginal art is made in all sorts of places - under rock overhangs (where
it is protected from the weather), but can also be on rock faces with no
overhang. Sometimes it is in caves.
Gavin


>
>
>
>
>
> So I think,
>
> an engraving with no paint => site_type:petroglyph
> a rock art with no engraving => site_type:cave_painting
>
> with site_type:parietal_art being a valid less specific tag for both.
>
> I agree that tourism=artwork doesn't seem right, given they were not
> created for tourism in the first place, and not necessarily as artworks
> either!
>
>
> On Sun, 31 Mar 2019 at 11:14, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > Aboriginal rock engravings are tagged;
> >
> > "historic"="archaeological_site"
> >
> > site_type"="petroglyph"
> >
> >
> > What should Aboriginal painted sites be tagged?
> >
> >
> > "historic"="archaeological_site"
> >
> > site_type"= ???
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-au mailing list
> > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
> >
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/attachments/20190331/843ce30a/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> --
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:12:44 +1100
> From: Andrew Harvey 
> To: OSM Australian Talk List 
> Subject: [talk-au] Rock Overhangs
> Message-ID:
>  y2...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Rock overhangs (rock shelters) have been quite extensively mistagged in
> Australia as natural=cave_entrance.
>
> Are there any objections to re-tagging these overhangs tagged as
> natural=cave_entrance to amenity=shelter + shelter_type=rock_shelter?
>
> Of course they would only be re-tagged where we have local knowledge or
> otherwise to verify.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural=cave_entrance
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dshelter
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shelter_type
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/attachments/20190331/456db70e/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> --
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
>
> --
>
> End of Talk-au Digest, Vol 141, Issue 38
> 
>
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites.

[Andrew Harvey]

Hey I was just thinking about this myself the other day.

"Petroglyph is image created by removing part of a rock surface by
incising, picking, carving, or abrading, as a form of rock art." So when
there is on engraving, only paint then petroglypth would be incorrect based
on that definition.

Rock art (parietal art) is a superset of petroglyph. That is cave paintings
and petroglypths are both forms of rock art, at least from my reading of
wikipedia.

So I think,

an engraving with no paint => site_type:petroglyph
a rock art with no engraving => site_type:cave_painting

with site_type:parietal_art being a valid less specific tag for both.

I agree that tourism=artwork doesn't seem right, given they were not
created for tourism in the first place, and not necessarily as artworks
either!


On Sun, 31 Mar 2019 at 11:14, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> Aboriginal rock engravings are tagged;
>
> "historic"="archaeological_site"
>
> site_type"="petroglyph"
>
>
> What should Aboriginal painted sites be tagged?
>
>
> "historic"="archaeological_site"
>
> site_type"= ???
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites.

[Warin]

On 31/03/19 11:17, Sebastian S. wrote:

What about 'rock art' ?
--


Humm up in Kakadu they are tagged

 "tourism"="artwork"
 "historic"="archaeological_site"
no site_type.

I don't like the tourism tag for them so much, prefer the historic as 
that better describes them?




On 31 March 2019 11:13:07 am AEDT, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,


Aboriginal rock engravings are tagged;

"historic"="archaeological_site"

site_type"="petroglyph"


What should Aboriginal painted sites be tagged?


"historic"="archaeological_site"

site_type"= ???





___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

Re: [talk-au] Aboriginal art sites.

[Sebastian S.]

What about 'rock art' ?
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

On 31 March 2019 11:13:07 am AEDT, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>
>Aboriginal rock engravings are tagged;
>
>"historic"="archaeological_site"
>
>site_type"="petroglyph"
>
>
>What should Aboriginal painted sites be tagged?
>
>
>"historic"="archaeological_site"
>
>site_type"= ???
___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

[talk-au] Aboriginal art sites.

[Warin]

Hi,


Aboriginal rock engravings are tagged;

"historic"="archaeological_site"

site_type"="petroglyph"


What should Aboriginal painted sites be tagged?


"historic"="archaeological_site"

site_type"= ???



___
Talk-au mailing list
Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au