Re: [Talk-GB] Fixing shop=yes, now it no longer renders on the default

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 at 21:35, Mike Baggaley  wrote:
> Hi Robert, Looks interesting. I've signed in and had a look. However, the 
> first one I looked at is a petrol station, and the wiki indicates that 
> shop=yes is the correct tagging as an additional tag for amenity=fuel. Hence 
> I suggest that these be omitted from the list requiring replacement.

I'd say that it's no more or less correct to use shop=yes there than
any other instance of shop=yes, as it still indicates a generic shop
of unspecified type. As it suggests at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfuel , shops at
petrol stations can also be mapped with a more specific type, such as
shop=convenience or shop=kiosk. I think this is preferable, so I'd
like to leave them in the list. That said, changing them is perhaps
less important than other instances, so they're set as low priority in
the Maproulette challenge. I think that means if you're getting new
tasks randomly, they should be less likely to come up.

Robert.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Fixing shop=yes, now it no longer renders on the default

[Mike Baggaley]

Hi Robert, Looks interesting. I've signed in and had a look. However, the first 
one I looked at is a petrol station, and the wiki indicates that shop=yes is 
the correct tagging as an additional tag for amenity=fuel. Hence I suggest that 
these be omitted from the list requiring replacement.

Cheers,
Mike 

>I've never really used Maproulette before, but I thought this would be
>a good opportunity to have a go. So here's my attempt at a challenge,
>for anyone who is interested in using it:
>https://maproulette.org/browse/challenges/9051 .
>
>Robert.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Fixing shop=yes, now it no longer renders on the default OSM map

[Peter Neale via Talk-GB]

I am also a complete newbie to Maproulette, but have had a go at a couple of 
shop=yes near me.
Some are easy enough, but others are rather tricky to tag correctly (surprise, 
surprise!), so I'll have to do some more research, both on the ground and in 
OSMWiki, to try to find an in-use tag that is appropriate.
If you need to do a survey, I suggest that you don't hit any of the maproulette 
boxes, but back out and come back when you have done your survey.  (or is that 
too obvious a response ?  no offence intended)
Regards,
 Peter
On Thursday, 5 September 2019, 16:41:34 BST, Jez Nicholson 
 wrote:  
 
 giving it a go as a Maproulette newbie too.
I have shop=yes on a number of locations where I know that there is a shop 
open, but i need to survey in person to check what it is. In Maproulette, would 
that be "Not an issue"? or "Too hard, can't see"? (not expecting Robert to 
know, but someone else might)
On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 1:18 PM Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
 wrote:

On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 at 12:40, Silent Spike  wrote:
> Perhaps a https://maproulette.org challenge would be a good way to track the 
> progress of this?

I've never really used Maproulette before, but I thought this would be
a good opportunity to have a go. So here's my attempt at a challenge,
for anyone who is interested in using it:
https://maproulette.org/browse/challenges/9051 .

Robert.

--
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https://osm.mathmos.net/

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Re: [Talk-GB] Fixing shop=yes, now it no longer renders on the default OSM map

[Jez Nicholson]

giving it a go as a Maproulette newbie too.

I have shop=yes on a number of locations where I know that there is a shop
open, but i need to survey in person to check what it is. In Maproulette,
would that be "Not an issue"? or "Too hard, can't see"? (not expecting
Robert to know, but someone else might)

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 1:18 PM Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <
robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 at 12:40, Silent Spike 
> wrote:
> > Perhaps a https://maproulette.org challenge would be a good way to
> track the progress of this?
>
> I've never really used Maproulette before, but I thought this would be
> a good opportunity to have a go. So here's my attempt at a challenge,
> for anyone who is interested in using it:
> https://maproulette.org/browse/challenges/9051 .
>
> Robert.
>
> --
> Robert Whittaker
> https://osm.mathmos.net/
>
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>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Fixing shop=yes, now it no longer renders on the default OSM map

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 at 12:40, Silent Spike  wrote:
> Perhaps a https://maproulette.org challenge would be a good way to track the 
> progress of this?

I've never really used Maproulette before, but I thought this would be
a good opportunity to have a go. So here's my attempt at a challenge,
for anyone who is interested in using it:
https://maproulette.org/browse/challenges/9051 .

Robert.

--
Robert Whittaker
https://osm.mathmos.net/

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Re: [Talk-GB] Fixing shop=yes, now it no longer renders on the default OSM map

[Mateusz Konieczny]

2 Sep 2019, 14:42 by robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com:

> Any mappers with a few minutes to spare might like to have a look at
> their local area, and see if there are any shop=yes objects they could
> re-tag with a more specific value. Some resources to help:
>
> * Overpass Turbo query to find shop=yes objects:
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/M0w (Pan/zoom to the area of interest, then
> click on run. Try a smaller area if the query times out.)
>
For the overpass query I recommend rather http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/M1A 
 that 
is not complaining about "amenity=fuel shop=yes" (though it is still better to 
map 
shop as a separate object rather than as a property).

It should be also findable by running JOSM validator and it is one of issues 
reported by
Osmose - see
http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/#zoom=9=54.738=-1.868==1%2C2%2C3==
 


As usual, in case of bogus validator complaints for valid data - report it to 
authors of a validator.
Osmose devs are good and JOSM devs are magnificent at handling them.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Fixing shop=yes, now it no longer renders on the default OSM map

[Mateusz Konieczny]

2 Sep 2019, 15:30 by stu...@travelinesoutheast.org.uk:

> I have found, variously (aside from those without a shop tag at all) 
> “houseware”, “household”, “doityourself”, “department_store”.
>
> I would suggest that “houseware” or “household” (is this a recognised tag?) 
> comes closest, or maybe even (from the Wiki - I haven’t found live examples 
> yet) “variety_store"
>  
>
> But how to tell! There isn’t a standardised approach, by any stretch of the 
> imagination.
>
>
In case of multiple well fitting values any of them is better than shop=yes.

For example, something on border of shop=convenience and shop=supermarket
would be well tagged by both shop=convenience and shop=supermarket.

In the worst case mappers will keep changing the tag from time to time.

It is certainly better than unspecific shop=yes.

(not sure whatever values listed in this specific case are well fitting or not)
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Re: [Talk-GB] Fixing shop=yes, now it no longer renders on the default OSM map

[Jez Nicholson]

Thanks Silent Spike. Keep up the good work.

Of course, the very process of people tagging a shop type with the value
that they think is correct, unprompted by the NSI, is/was the process of
gaining consensus. I fear slightly that in our desire to use the 'right'
value we lose that inputNot that i'm seeing loads of contentious values
coming through from the NSI. I might just be being academic about it.
That's why i'm keen that people add to the UK wiki page with shopfront
photos and details, and question it on Talk-GB so that any additions to the
NSI are well-informed.

On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 12:40 PM Silent Spike 
wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 2:21 PM Jez Nicholson 
> wrote:
>
>> I don't know (yet) how iD generates its list of shop types. This may be
>> hard-coded and/or pre-generated from the NSI.
>>
>
> I can shed some light on this. The "type" field (drop down list) on the
> generic "shop" preset is generated from taginfo. However, there are also
> specific shop presets (e.g. "Hardware Store") which are manually added in
> iD's data files. Then even more specifically there are the brand specific
> presets which are generated from the name suggestion index.
>
> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 2:31 PM Stuart Reynolds <
> stu...@travelinesoutheast.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> And this is the problem. One of the shop=yes entries in Southend on sea
>> is The Range. I wasn’t sure how to tag it (I was using iD for speed, and
>> it’s list of defined shop tags is fairly minimal) so I tried an overpass
>> query on Name=The Range.
>>
>> I have found, variously (aside from those without a shop tag at all)
>> “houseware”, “household”, “doityourself”, “department_store”.
>>
>
> This is a common issue I run into when adding UK brands to the name
> suggestion index, but it also highlights the power of having a
> `brand:wikidata` tag. If all locations are identified by brand, then in
> future if there is a tagging development or consensus change for that
> brand, all of the locations can be easily converted because they're
> explicitly marked. Along those lines, if there is ever discussion which
> establishes some UK brand tagging consensus on the mailing list here I will
> more than likely see it and adopt it into the index.
>
> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 1:43 PM Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <
> robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Any mappers with a few minutes to spare might like to have a look at
>> their local area, and see if there are any shop=yes objects they could
>> re-tag with a more specific value. Some resources to help:
>
>
> Perhaps a https://maproulette.org challenge would be a good way to track
> the progress of this?
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Re: [Talk-GB] Fixing shop=yes, now it no longer renders on the default OSM map

[Silent Spike]

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 2:21 PM Jez Nicholson 
wrote:

> I don't know (yet) how iD generates its list of shop types. This may be
> hard-coded and/or pre-generated from the NSI.
>

I can shed some light on this. The "type" field (drop down list) on the
generic "shop" preset is generated from taginfo. However, there are also
specific shop presets (e.g. "Hardware Store") which are manually added in
iD's data files. Then even more specifically there are the brand specific
presets which are generated from the name suggestion index.

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 2:31 PM Stuart Reynolds <
stu...@travelinesoutheast.org.uk> wrote:

> And this is the problem. One of the shop=yes entries in Southend on sea is
> The Range. I wasn’t sure how to tag it (I was using iD for speed, and it’s
> list of defined shop tags is fairly minimal) so I tried an overpass query
> on Name=The Range.
>
> I have found, variously (aside from those without a shop tag at all)
> “houseware”, “household”, “doityourself”, “department_store”.
>

This is a common issue I run into when adding UK brands to the name
suggestion index, but it also highlights the power of having a
`brand:wikidata` tag. If all locations are identified by brand, then in
future if there is a tagging development or consensus change for that
brand, all of the locations can be easily converted because they're
explicitly marked. Along those lines, if there is ever discussion which
establishes some UK brand tagging consensus on the mailing list here I will
more than likely see it and adopt it into the index.

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 1:43 PM Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <
robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Any mappers with a few minutes to spare might like to have a look at
> their local area, and see if there are any shop=yes objects they could
> re-tag with a more specific value. Some resources to help:


Perhaps a https://maproulette.org challenge would be a good way to track
the progress of this?
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Re: [Talk-GB] Fixing shop=yes, now it no longer renders on the default OSM map

[Stuart Reynolds]

And this is the problem. One of the shop=yes entries in Southend on sea is The 
Range. I wasn’t sure how to tag it (I was using iD for speed, and it’s list of 
defined shop tags is fairly minimal) so I tried an overpass query on Name=The 
Range.

I have found, variously (aside from those without a shop tag at all) 
“houseware”, “household”, “doityourself”, “department_store”.

I would suggest that “houseware” or “household” (is this a recognised tag?) 
comes closest, or maybe even (from the Wiki - I haven’t found live examples 
yet) “variety_store"

But how to tell! There isn’t a standardised approach, by any stretch of the 
imagination.

Regards,
Stuart Reynolds
for traveline south east and anglia

On 2 Sep 2019, at 14:20, Jez Nicholson 
mailto:jez.nichol...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Whilst we are on the subject of shops (I hope this isn't dragging the 
discussion too far off topic) people may be interested how editors like iD and 
Vespucci get lists of UK shop names to suggest in drop-downs. The Name 
Suggestion Index contains json encoded descriptions of retail brands and can be 
browsed using https://osmlab.github.io/name-suggestion-index/  this page lets 
you enter 'gb' as a county code to show only UK shops.

I don't know (yet) how iD generates its list of shop types. This may be 
hard-coded and/or pre-generated from the NSI.

The excellent 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom OSM 
Wiki page is a good driver for getting content into the NSI as we include 
evidence of the name with an image.

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 1:59 PM Jez Nicholson 
mailto:jez.nichol...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Thanks for the heads up.

I specifically use it when I know that a shop exists, and am due to survey it 
to say what it is. So I guess it doesn't hurt if those aren't rendered..but 
please, people in general, don't just delete them.

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 1:43 PM Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
mailto:robert.whittaker%2b...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Since version 4.22 of the Carto map style (which was deployed a few
days ago), the generic shop=yes tag is no longer rendered on the
default OSM-Carto map at https://www.openstreetmap.org/ . For details
of the decision see
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3697 .

In Great Britain,
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/shop#values shows we
currently have 7,772 objects tagged with shop=yes, which represents
4.18% of our total shop=* objects. These objects will no longer appear
on the default map (unless they have other renderable tags). To have
the objects display again, we need to give them more specific shop=*
tags. Often, an appropriate shop value can be deduced from the shop
name, its website, or other existing tagging on OSM, without needing a
ground survey.

Any mappers with a few minutes to spare might like to have a look at
their local area, and see if there are any shop=yes objects they could
re-tag with a more specific value. Some resources to help:

* Overpass Turbo query to find shop=yes objects:
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/M0w (Pan/zoom to the area of interest, then
click on run. Try a smaller area if the query times out.)

* OSM WIki Key:Shop page, with values for common shop types:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop

* Taginfo GB shop values:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/shop#values (Use the search
box at the top right of the *table* to get suggestions for the common
tag for a particular shop type.)

Best wishes,

Robert.

--
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https://osm.mathmos.net/

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Re: [Talk-GB] Fixing shop=yes, now it no longer renders on the default OSM map

[Jez Nicholson]

Whilst we are on the subject of shops (I hope this isn't dragging the
discussion too far off topic) people may be interested how editors like iD
and Vespucci get lists of UK shop names to suggest in drop-downs. The Name
Suggestion Index contains json encoded descriptions of retail brands and
can be browsed using https://osmlab.github.io/name-suggestion-index/  this
page lets you enter 'gb' as a county code to show only UK shops.

I don't know (yet) how iD generates its list of shop types. This may be
hard-coded and/or pre-generated from the NSI.

The excellent
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Retail_chains_in_the_United_Kingdom OSM
Wiki page is a good driver for getting content into the NSI as we include
evidence of the name with an image.

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 1:59 PM Jez Nicholson 
wrote:

> Thanks for the heads up.
>
> I specifically use it when I know that a shop exists, and am due to survey
> it to say what it is. So I guess it doesn't hurt if those aren't
> rendered..but please, people in general, don't just delete them.
>
> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 1:43 PM Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <
> robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Since version 4.22 of the Carto map style (which was deployed a few
>> days ago), the generic shop=yes tag is no longer rendered on the
>> default OSM-Carto map at https://www.openstreetmap.org/ . For details
>> of the decision see
>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3697 .
>>
>> In Great Britain,
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/shop#values shows we
>> currently have 7,772 objects tagged with shop=yes, which represents
>> 4.18% of our total shop=* objects. These objects will no longer appear
>> on the default map (unless they have other renderable tags). To have
>> the objects display again, we need to give them more specific shop=*
>> tags. Often, an appropriate shop value can be deduced from the shop
>> name, its website, or other existing tagging on OSM, without needing a
>> ground survey.
>>
>> Any mappers with a few minutes to spare might like to have a look at
>> their local area, and see if there are any shop=yes objects they could
>> re-tag with a more specific value. Some resources to help:
>>
>> * Overpass Turbo query to find shop=yes objects:
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/M0w (Pan/zoom to the area of interest, then
>> click on run. Try a smaller area if the query times out.)
>>
>> * OSM WIki Key:Shop page, with values for common shop types:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop
>>
>> * Taginfo GB shop values:
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/shop#values (Use the search
>> box at the top right of the *table* to get suggestions for the common
>> tag for a particular shop type.)
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Robert.
>>
>> --
>> Robert Whittaker
>> https://osm.mathmos.net/
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Fixing shop=yes, now it no longer renders on the default OSM map

[Jez Nicholson]

Thanks for the heads up.

I specifically use it when I know that a shop exists, and am due to survey
it to say what it is. So I guess it doesn't hurt if those aren't
rendered..but please, people in general, don't just delete them.

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 1:43 PM Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <
robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Since version 4.22 of the Carto map style (which was deployed a few
> days ago), the generic shop=yes tag is no longer rendered on the
> default OSM-Carto map at https://www.openstreetmap.org/ . For details
> of the decision see
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3697 .
>
> In Great Britain,
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/shop#values shows we
> currently have 7,772 objects tagged with shop=yes, which represents
> 4.18% of our total shop=* objects. These objects will no longer appear
> on the default map (unless they have other renderable tags). To have
> the objects display again, we need to give them more specific shop=*
> tags. Often, an appropriate shop value can be deduced from the shop
> name, its website, or other existing tagging on OSM, without needing a
> ground survey.
>
> Any mappers with a few minutes to spare might like to have a look at
> their local area, and see if there are any shop=yes objects they could
> re-tag with a more specific value. Some resources to help:
>
> * Overpass Turbo query to find shop=yes objects:
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/M0w (Pan/zoom to the area of interest, then
> click on run. Try a smaller area if the query times out.)
>
> * OSM WIki Key:Shop page, with values for common shop types:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop
>
> * Taginfo GB shop values:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/shop#values (Use the search
> box at the top right of the *table* to get suggestions for the common
> tag for a particular shop type.)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Robert.
>
> --
> Robert Whittaker
> https://osm.mathmos.net/
>
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[Talk-GB] Fixing shop=yes, now it no longer renders on the default OSM map

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

Since version 4.22 of the Carto map style (which was deployed a few
days ago), the generic shop=yes tag is no longer rendered on the
default OSM-Carto map at https://www.openstreetmap.org/ . For details
of the decision see
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3697 .

In Great Britain,
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/shop#values shows we
currently have 7,772 objects tagged with shop=yes, which represents
4.18% of our total shop=* objects. These objects will no longer appear
on the default map (unless they have other renderable tags). To have
the objects display again, we need to give them more specific shop=*
tags. Often, an appropriate shop value can be deduced from the shop
name, its website, or other existing tagging on OSM, without needing a
ground survey.

Any mappers with a few minutes to spare might like to have a look at
their local area, and see if there are any shop=yes objects they could
re-tag with a more specific value. Some resources to help:

* Overpass Turbo query to find shop=yes objects:
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/M0w (Pan/zoom to the area of interest, then
click on run. Try a smaller area if the query times out.)

* OSM WIki Key:Shop page, with values for common shop types:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop

* Taginfo GB shop values:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/shop#values (Use the search
box at the top right of the *table* to get suggestions for the common
tag for a particular shop type.)

Best wishes,

Robert.

-- 
Robert Whittaker
https://osm.mathmos.net/

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