Re: [Talk-GB] Propose automated edit to update NAPTAN data in the west mids

[John Aldridge]

On 03-Feb-17 17:52, Brian Prangle wrote:

In line with the automated edits policy there's a wikipage

with full details


I realise that this proposal is only for West Midlands, but if it were 
extended nationwide, I'd have a concern about globally assuming NAPTAN's 
positional accuracy is better than OSM's existing data. I rather doubt 
that's the case for the ones I've re-surveyed round here, for example.


Even where it is true, there's a follow on task needed which will be to 
make sure nearby non-bus-stop geometry is also improved to match. I know 
there are many places where OSM data has been added from poorly 
georeferenced aerial photography, resulting in a map which, although 
perhaps up to 5 or 10 metres out, is nevertheless useful and usable. 
Simply fixing the bus stop coordinates in isolation will produce some 
very odd results like moving them into the middle of people's houses!


All the stuff about fixing route information sounds excellent, though! 
That's certainly in rather poor repair locally.


--
Cheers,
John

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Re: [Talk-GB] Propose automated edit to update NAPTAN data in the west mids

[Brian Prangle]

Hi Michael

Not sure what the process is now - it was so long ago we did the last one.
Can anyone help Michael?

Regards

Brian

On 3 February 2017 at 23:22, Michael Booth  wrote:

> On a related note, what is the process for getting an import in places
> that don't already have NAPTAN data? I'd be interested in having bus stops
> in Fife imported.
>
>
> On 03/02/2017 17:52, Brian Prangle wrote:
>
> Hi everyone
>
> We have an opportunity to work with the regional transport authority TfWM
> to update this data which is 8 years old and partially edited by OSM users.
> They have assigned 2 developers to work on this and I'm spending a half day
> each week working with them.
>
> We've agreed and discussed this in our mappa mercia group and also
> contacted a prolific local public transport OSM editor who's not part of
> our group.
>
> In line with the automated edits policy there's a wikipage
> 
> with full details
>
> Comments welcome as this exercise might be useful elswhere as the state of
> NAPTAN data will be in a similar state
>
> regards
>
> Brian
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Propose automated edit to update NAPTAN data in the west mids

[Brian Prangle]

Hi Matthijs

I echo Stuart - it's best to deal with these with the local NaPTAN
maintainer, who works in TfWM

Regards

Stuart

On 5 February 2017 at 21:22, Stuart Reynolds <
stu...@travelinesoutheast.org.uk> wrote:

> Hi Matthijs,
>
> Wherever possible the names in NaPTAN should match what is on the flag or
> shelter. There are however some instances where this is not possible or
> desirable.
>
> For instance, the stop might carry a historic name such as for a long
> closed pub which has been updated in data but not on the ground. Or perhaps
> the name is a compound name (often of the "Main Street / Side Road"
> variety) where this is better held as two separate fields in NaPTAN.
>
> But in general any discrepancies should be queried with the data owner who
> is normally the County or Unitary council. In West Midlands it is the old
> Centro / new TfWM. I have contacts there, as obviously does Brian, but I
> ought to check that they are happy for me to post their email address on
> the list for all to use.
>
> Regards
> Stuart
>
>
> On 5 Feb 2017, at 19:35, Matthijs Melissen 
> wrote:
>
> On 3 February 2017 at 19:29, Stuart Reynolds  org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Also, there is often some confusion about what name goes into which
>> fields - people will insist on compounding names, for example, because
>> that’s what their consuming system wants, rather than getting the consumer
>> to read the data properly. But that’s too much to go into here, and if
>> reviewing the names is in scope then I would be happy to offer to help. One
>> of my other “hats" is as the Public Transport Data Standards Advisor /
>> Expert for DfT, which includes advising on NAPTAN.
>>
>> Hi Stuart,
>
> Great to have your support. I noticed that there are a few stops in the
> West Midlands where the name in Naptan doesn't match the name on the flag
> (unfortunately I don't remember by heart which ones). This means the visual
> announcement in the announcement in the bus (and the information in online
> timetables) is different from the name on the flag, so from a usability
> perspective it would make sense to fix this. Is there any process of
> reporting situations like that?
>
> -- Matthijs
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Propose automated edit to update NAPTAN data in the west mids

[Stuart Reynolds]

Hi Matthijs,

Wherever possible the names in NaPTAN should match what is on the flag or 
shelter. There are however some instances where this is not possible or 
desirable.

For instance, the stop might carry a historic name such as for a long closed 
pub which has been updated in data but not on the ground. Or perhaps the name 
is a compound name (often of the "Main Street / Side Road" variety) where this 
is better held as two separate fields in NaPTAN.

But in general any discrepancies should be queried with the data owner who is 
normally the County or Unitary council. In West Midlands it is the old Centro / 
new TfWM. I have contacts there, as obviously does Brian, but I ought to check 
that they are happy for me to post their email address on the list for all to 
use.

Regards
Stuart


On 5 Feb 2017, at 19:35, Matthijs Melissen 
> wrote:

On 3 February 2017 at 19:29, Stuart Reynolds 
> 
wrote:
Also, there is often some confusion about what name goes into which fields - 
people will insist on compounding names, for example, because that's what their 
consuming system wants, rather than getting the consumer to read the data 
properly. But that's too much to go into here, and if reviewing the names is in 
scope then I would be happy to offer to help. One of my other "hats" is as the 
Public Transport Data Standards Advisor / Expert for DfT, which includes 
advising on NAPTAN.

Hi Stuart,

Great to have your support. I noticed that there are a few stops in the West 
Midlands where the name in Naptan doesn't match the name on the flag 
(unfortunately I don't remember by heart which ones). This means the visual 
announcement in the announcement in the bus (and the information in online 
timetables) is different from the name on the flag, so from a usability 
perspective it would make sense to fix this. Is there any process of reporting 
situations like that?

-- Matthijs
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Re: [Talk-GB] Propose automated edit to update NAPTAN data in the west mids

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 3 February 2017 at 19:29, Stuart Reynolds <
stu...@travelinesoutheast.org.uk> wrote:

> Also, there is often some confusion about what name goes into which fields
> - people will insist on compounding names, for example, because that’s what
> their consuming system wants, rather than getting the consumer to read the
> data properly. But that’s too much to go into here, and if reviewing the
> names is in scope then I would be happy to offer to help. One of my other
> “hats" is as the Public Transport Data Standards Advisor / Expert for DfT,
> which includes advising on NAPTAN.
>
> Hi Stuart,

Great to have your support. I noticed that there are a few stops in the
West Midlands where the name in Naptan doesn't match the name on the flag
(unfortunately I don't remember by heart which ones). This means the visual
announcement in the announcement in the bus (and the information in online
timetables) is different from the name on the flag, so from a usability
perspective it would make sense to fix this. Is there any process of
reporting situations like that?

-- Matthijs
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Re: [Talk-GB] Propose automated edit to update NAPTAN data in the west mids

[Matthijs Melissen]

Hi Brian,

Great to see this going forward! Some technicalities:

> Process overview

This is not very clear to me. I think this section either needs more
detail, or less (with the detail moved to the individual steps). Also, what
do you mean with opening a csv in JOSM?

> Each chunk will create a separate changeset in OSM

This is not correct, all chunks will be uploaded within one changeset. See
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Action/Upload for how uploading in
chunks in JOSM work.

On the process detail: what will happen with current bus stops in OSM that
do not have Naptan tags? Perhaps it would be best to add the NaptanCode (or
AtcoCode) manually for these stops first? Can't be too many of them.

"Use a proximity script to determine presence of duplicates. How to handle
duplicates?" I don't think we need a proximity script or anything like
that, we can just do matching on NaptanCode or AtcoCode. So: for all bus
stops, if there is a bus stop with a matching NaptanCode already in OSM,
update that bus stop; if not, create a new bus stop.

The Naptan database contains abbreviations like Rd, Ln, St. Will we leave
those, or are we going to expand them into Road, Lane, Street etc, as is
usually done in OSM? The bus stops in West Midlands have the abbreviations
written out as well.

In general, I think it would be good to have some more information in the
process detail before going ahead - but I'm sure this will sort itself out
over the next weeks.

Good luck with the import, it's a great step forward!

-- Matthijs

On 3 February 2017 at 18:52, Brian Prangle  wrote:

> Hi everyone
>
> We have an opportunity to work with the regional transport authority TfWM
> to update this data which is 8 years old and partially edited by OSM users.
> They have assigned 2 developers to work on this and I'm spending a half day
> each week working with them.
>
> We've agreed and discussed this in our mappa mercia group and also
> contacted a prolific local public transport OSM editor who's not part of
> our group.
>
> In line with the automated edits policy there's a wikipage
> 
> with full details
>
> Comments welcome as this exercise might be useful elswhere as the state of
> NAPTAN data will be in a similar state
>
> regards
>
> Brian
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Propose automated edit to update NAPTAN data in the west mids

[Brian Prangle]

Good to have you involved Stuart. Locally we're aware of CUS and HAR bus
stop types.

We have elaborated  a local schema for names which is detailed on the
wikipage


This suits us and TfWM but might not be to everyone else's liking

Basically:
Interchanges: stop ref (not sure of the NaPTAN nomenclature- but it has the
format SN5 , BK3  etc.)
Non-interchanges  Street Name/CommonName
Bus Stations: Stand X

Regards

Brian


On 3 February 2017 at 18:29, Stuart Reynolds <
stu...@travelinesoutheast.org.uk> wrote:

> Hi Brian,
>
> If you are updating the data in OSM from NaPTAN, then I agree that this is
> long overdue.
>
> For the benefit of others, can I just mention some specific stop point
> types that are in NaPTAN that editors may be unfamiliar with (and which I
> think have caused some confusion in the past):
>
>
>- CUS are Custom and Practice stops. Typically ends of farm roads,
>lay-bys, etc where there is no physical marked stop. Given a need to have
>stopping points on the right side of the road, these are also used for the
>“other side of the road” stop where there is a pole marked “buses stop both
>sides”
>- HAR are virtual stops denoting a nominal point in a hail and ride
>section. Hail and Ride is a bit cumbersome, but there is a virtual stop and
>it is linked to a start coordinate for the hail and ride section and an end
>coordinate. These aren’t supposed to be long. Typically there will need to
>be one in each direction (as the start and end points are reversed).
>
>
> Also, there is often some confusion about what name goes into which fields
> - people will insist on compounding names, for example, because that’s what
> their consuming system wants, rather than getting the consumer to read the
> data properly. But that’s too much to go into here, and if reviewing the
> names is in scope then I would be happy to offer to help. One of my other
> “hats" is as the Public Transport Data Standards Advisor / Expert for DfT,
> which includes advising on NAPTAN.
>
> Regards,
> Stuart Reynolds
> for traveline south east & anglia
>
>
>
> On 3 Feb 2017, at 17:52, Brian Prangle  wrote:
>
> Hi everyone
>
> We have an opportunity to work with the regional transport authority TfWM
> to update this data which is 8 years old and partially edited by OSM users.
> They have assigned 2 developers to work on this and I'm spending a half day
> each week working with them.
>
> We've agreed and discussed this in our mappa mercia group and also
> contacted a prolific local public transport OSM editor who's not part of
> our group.
>
> In line with the automated edits policy there's a wikipage
> 
> with full details
>
> Comments welcome as this exercise might be useful elswhere as the state of
> NAPTAN data will be in a similar state
>
> regards
>
> Brian
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Re: [Talk-GB] Propose automated edit to update NAPTAN data in the west mids

[Brian Prangle]

Hi Harry

NOVAM was developed by christ...@b3e.net  when he was a student at
Birmingham University.  NOVAM stands for NAPTAN OSM View And Maintain
It would be good to get this back online again. Good luck!

Regards

Brian

On 4 February 2017 at 12:07, Harry Wood <m...@harrywood.co.uk> wrote:

> I was thinking of embarking on some development work to re-examine the
> NaPTAN dataset myself. We regularly consume this dataset at TransportAPI,
> so I have some code which works with Stops.csv
>
> The NoVAM viewer http://www.mappa-mercia.org/novam is currently broken.
> Probably easy to fix. It's trying to do XAPI calls to an instance which is
> "forbidden". Can we move that codebase into github and bring it back to
> life?Why was it called Novam?
>
> Anyway I think this had the right idea of doing comparisons and making it
> clear which data was changed when. It could be extended to allow selective
> import too I imagine.
>
> I'd like to render a more of a UK-wide perspective, so we can see more
> visually, where data was imported. Also I want to see visually how many
> stops have been "corrected" by OSMers since import, and I want to do a
> comparison between naptan versions, to see how many of the stops have
> changed position within NaPTAN over the years (and find where these updates
> are not within OpenStreetMap yet. Grimsby town centre used to be a big
> example of this before I fixed it)
>
> Harry
>
> --
> *From:* Brian Prangle <bpran...@gmail.com>
> *To:* Talk GB <talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>
> *Sent:* Friday, 3 February 2017, 17:52
> *Subject:* [Talk-GB] Propose automated edit to update NAPTAN data in the
> west mids
>
> Hi everyone
>
> We have an opportunity to work with the regional transport authority TfWM
> to update this data which is 8 years old and partially edited by OSM users.
> They have assigned 2 developers to work on this and I'm spending a half day
> each week working with them.
>
> We've agreed and discussed this in our mappa mercia group and also
> contacted a prolific local public transport OSM editor who's not part of
> our group.
>
> In line with the automated edits policy there's a wikipage
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edit_West_Midlands_NAPTAN_data>
> with full details
>
> Comments welcome as this exercise might be useful elswhere as the state of
> NAPTAN data will be in a similar state
>
> regards
>
> Brian
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Propose automated edit to update NAPTAN data in the west mids

[Harry Wood]

I was thinking of embarking on some development work to re-examine the NaPTAN 
dataset myself. We regularly consume this dataset at TransportAPI, so I have 
some code which works with Stops.csv 

The NoVAM viewer http://www.mappa-mercia.org/novam is currently broken. 
Probably easy to fix. It's trying to do XAPI calls to an instance which is 
"forbidden". Can we move that codebase into github and bring it back to 
life?Why was it called Novam?
Anyway I think this had the right idea of doing comparisons and making it clear 
which data was changed when. It could be extended to allow selective import too 
I imagine. 
I'd like to render a more of a UK-wide perspective, so we can see more 
visually, where data was imported. Also I want to see visually how many stops 
have been "corrected" by OSMers since import, and I want to do a comparison 
between naptan versions, to see how many of the stops have changed position 
within NaPTAN over the years (and find where these updates are not within 
OpenStreetMap yet. Grimsby town centre used to be a big example of this before 
I fixed it)
Harry
  From: Brian Prangle <bpran...@gmail.com>
 To: Talk GB <talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> 
 Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 17:52
 Subject: [Talk-GB] Propose automated edit to update NAPTAN data in the west 
mids
   
Hi everyone

We have an opportunity to work with the regional transport authority TfWM to 
update this data which is 8 years old and partially edited by OSM users. They 
have assigned 2 developers to work on this and I'm spending a half day each 
week working with them.

We've agreed and discussed this in our mappa mercia group and also contacted a 
prolific local public transport OSM editor who's not part of  our group.

In line with the automated edits policy there's a wikipage with full details

Comments welcome as this exercise might be useful elswhere as the state of 
NAPTAN data will be in a similar state

regards

Brian

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Re: [Talk-GB] Propose automated edit to update NAPTAN data in the west mids

[Michael Booth]

On a related note, what is the process for getting an import in places 
that don't already have NAPTAN data? I'd be interested in having bus 
stops in Fife imported.


On 03/02/2017 17:52, Brian Prangle wrote:

Hi everyone

We have an opportunity to work with the regional transport authority 
TfWM to update this data which is 8 years old and partially edited by 
OSM users. They have assigned 2 developers to work on this and I'm 
spending a half day each week working with them.


We've agreed and discussed this in our mappa mercia group and also 
contacted a prolific local public transport OSM editor who's not part 
of  our group.


In line with the automated edits policy there's a wikipage 
 
with full details


Comments welcome as this exercise might be useful elswhere as the 
state of NAPTAN data will be in a similar state


regards

Brian


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Re: [Talk-GB] Propose automated edit to update NAPTAN data in the west mids

[Stuart Reynolds]

Hi Brian,

If you are updating the data in OSM from NaPTAN, then I agree that this is long 
overdue.

For the benefit of others, can I just mention some specific stop point types 
that are in NaPTAN that editors may be unfamiliar with (and which I think have 
caused some confusion in the past):


  *   CUS are Custom and Practice stops. Typically ends of farm roads, lay-bys, 
etc where there is no physical marked stop. Given a need to have stopping 
points on the right side of the road, these are also used for the “other side 
of the road” stop where there is a pole marked “buses stop both sides”
  *   HAR are virtual stops denoting a nominal point in a hail and ride 
section. Hail and Ride is a bit cumbersome, but there is a virtual stop and it 
is linked to a start coordinate for the hail and ride section and an end 
coordinate. These aren’t supposed to be long. Typically there will need to be 
one in each direction (as the start and end points are reversed).

Also, there is often some confusion about what name goes into which fields - 
people will insist on compounding names, for example, because that’s what their 
consuming system wants, rather than getting the consumer to read the data 
properly. But that’s too much to go into here, and if reviewing the names is in 
scope then I would be happy to offer to help. One of my other “hats" is as the 
Public Transport Data Standards Advisor / Expert for DfT, which includes 
advising on NAPTAN.

Regards,
Stuart Reynolds
for traveline south east & anglia



On 3 Feb 2017, at 17:52, Brian Prangle 
> wrote:

Hi everyone

We have an opportunity to work with the regional transport authority TfWM to 
update this data which is 8 years old and partially edited by OSM users. They 
have assigned 2 developers to work on this and I'm spending a half day each 
week working with them.

We've agreed and discussed this in our mappa mercia group and also contacted a 
prolific local public transport OSM editor who's not part of  our group.

In line with the automated edits policy there's a 
wikipage
 with full details

Comments welcome as this exercise might be useful elswhere as the state of 
NAPTAN data will be in a similar state

regards

Brian
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[Talk-GB] Propose automated edit to update NAPTAN data in the west mids

[Brian Prangle]

Hi everyone

We have an opportunity to work with the regional transport authority TfWM
to update this data which is 8 years old and partially edited by OSM users.
They have assigned 2 developers to work on this and I'm spending a half day
each week working with them.

We've agreed and discussed this in our mappa mercia group and also
contacted a prolific local public transport OSM editor who's not part of
our group.

In line with the automated edits policy there's a wikipage

with full details

Comments welcome as this exercise might be useful elswhere as the state of
NAPTAN data will be in a similar state

regards

Brian
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