Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Adam Snape]

As long as we're dealing with advisory signs erected by an official body
rather than a vigilante neighborhood busybody, I think the
maxspeed:advisory= tag would be appropriate.

Regards
Adam
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[David Woolley]

On 02/05/18 13:03, Craig Wallace wrote:
A 20 sign with a green circle is advisory. A 20 sign with a red circle 
is a legal limit.

Some advisory limits are signed as "Slow zone" or similar.


Advisory signs can be put up with no formality.  Legal speed limits 
require a traffic regulation order, with the associated public 
announcements and public consultation periods.  That's the main reason 
you are likely to see advisory signs.


In another thread, on a different forum, this came up for cycle lanes. 
A lot of UK cycle lanes are advisory, meaning cars can park on them with 
impunity, so they are often of limited use.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[SK53]

I think they are popular in Flintshire around schools. I was certainly
somewhat disconcerted by them when I first encountered them.

It occurs to me that it may be worth mapping these because of their obvious
intent to confuse, but only using highway=traffic_sign.

Jerry

On 2 May 2018 at 13:31, Colin Smale  wrote:

> On 2018-05-02 14:03, Craig Wallace wrote:
>
> A 20 sign with a green circle is advisory.
>
>
> Such signs have apparently no legal status whatsoever.
>
> See this FoI request:
> https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/20_mph_speed_limit_signs_with_gr
>
> There may be a difference in liability, if you exceed an advised max speed
> and have a crash as a result of that, you have some explaining to do. A
> sign with no legal standing whatsoever surely cannot be used in this
> context.
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Colin Smale]

On 2018-05-02 14:03, Craig Wallace wrote:

> A 20 sign with a green circle is advisory.

Such signs have apparently no legal status whatsoever. 

See this FoI request: 
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/20_mph_speed_limit_signs_with_gr 

There may be a difference in liability, if you exceed an advised max
speed and have a crash as a result of that, you have some explaining to
do. A sign with no legal standing whatsoever surely cannot be used in
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Tobias Zwick]

Hey Phil

The quest pin is still in your application's cache. The app downloaded
the quest more than 8 months ago.
In any case, no need to worry. In case you solve a quest that turns out
to be outdated (=there is a conflict with actual data), it will discard
that answer and invalidate the cache of the area. You can manually
invalidate the cache in the settings.

For more information, see here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete/FAQ#How_does_the_app_handle_uploads.3F

Cheers
Tobias

On 02/05/2018 13:58, Philip Barnes wrote:
> Tobias
> A quick question on speedlimit quests in Street Complete. I have
> attached a screenshot of an area showing some missing speed limits.
> 
> The problem is they are mapped, for example Bynner Street
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/48394860
> 
> Cheers Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Craig Wallace]

On 2018-05-02 11:53, Jez Nicholson wrote:
Oh, this is fun. So, correct me if i'm wrong: a "20 mph zone" doesn't 
have/need repeaters because it is not actually the legal speed limit. 
It is advisory to travel at that speed because traffic calming makes 
it hard not to.


A 20 sign with a green circle is advisory. A 20 sign with a red circle 
is a legal limit.

Some advisory limits are signed as "Slow zone" or similar.

It seems some of the advisory 20mph are now being replaced with legal 
limits.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Philip Barnes]

Single or dual carriageway has nothing to do with restricted access. It is 
whether or not each direction is a different physically separate carriageway. 
The division can be a strip of grass.

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 2 May 2018 12:34:56 BST, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
>Also,
>
>6. Did you come up with the term "restricted" or is the term actually
>used within the same context as single / dual carriageway in the UK
>legislation? Because, that term is usually used for quite another thing
>in OSM context (restricted access roads). But, as long as the nsl_*
>taggings in themselves are consistent (in that they use the terms from
>the UK legislation), that's fine, I guess. Otherwise, we should perhaps
>look for a more fitting name before I cast it into code.
>
>Tobias
>
>On 01/05/2018 20:19, Jason Cunningham wrote:
>> I had a bit of an interest in tagging speed limits a few years back.
>> It's way more complicated than it should be in the UK. Researching
>led
>> me down a bit of a rabbit hole of legislation & case law.
>> 
>> I made the following personal notes about UK limits and how to
>recognise
>> them, which I think is mostly correct.
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Jamicu/UK_Speed_Limits
>> 
>> I personally tagged restricted roads as 
>maxspeed:type=UK:nsl_restricted
>> 
>> All a bit of a mess though.
>> 
>> Jason
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Adam Snape]

Restricted Road is the correct formal term for roads where the default
30mph limit applies. That said, it is not a term that most people will
recognise (unlike single/dual carriageway).

Adam

On Wed, 2 May 2018, 12:36 Tobias Zwick,  wrote:

> Also,
>
> 6. Did you come up with the term "restricted" or is the term actually
> used within the same context as single / dual carriageway in the UK
> legislation? Because, that term is usually used for quite another thing
> in OSM context (restricted access roads). But, as long as the nsl_*
> taggings in themselves are consistent (in that they use the terms from
> the UK legislation), that's fine, I guess. Otherwise, we should perhaps
> look for a more fitting name before I cast it into code.
>
> Tobias
>
> On 01/05/2018 20:19, Jason Cunningham wrote:
> > I had a bit of an interest in tagging speed limits a few years back.
> > It's way more complicated than it should be in the UK. Researching led
> > me down a bit of a rabbit hole of legislation & case law.
> >
> > I made the following personal notes about UK limits and how to recognise
> > them, which I think is mostly correct.
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Jamicu/UK_Speed_Limits
> >
> > I personally tagged restricted roads as  maxspeed:type=UK:nsl_restricted
> >
> > All a bit of a mess though.
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-GB mailing list
> > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> >
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Tobias Zwick]

Also,

6. Did you come up with the term "restricted" or is the term actually
used within the same context as single / dual carriageway in the UK
legislation? Because, that term is usually used for quite another thing
in OSM context (restricted access roads). But, as long as the nsl_*
taggings in themselves are consistent (in that they use the terms from
the UK legislation), that's fine, I guess. Otherwise, we should perhaps
look for a more fitting name before I cast it into code.

Tobias

On 01/05/2018 20:19, Jason Cunningham wrote:
> I had a bit of an interest in tagging speed limits a few years back.
> It's way more complicated than it should be in the UK. Researching led
> me down a bit of a rabbit hole of legislation & case law.
> 
> I made the following personal notes about UK limits and how to recognise
> them, which I think is mostly correct.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Jamicu/UK_Speed_Limits
> 
> I personally tagged restricted roads as  maxspeed:type=UK:nsl_restricted
> 
> All a bit of a mess though.
> 
> Jason
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[David Woolley]

On 02/05/18 12:06, Adam Snape wrote:
Sorry, for clarity, both '20 mph zones' and '20mph limits' are actual 
legal limits, not just advisory. In the former case, the sign on entry 
to the zone coupled with the traffic calming is thought to be enough to 
make drivers aware of the reduced speed required.


The traffic calming does not effectively reduce the speed to 20mph. 
What tends to happen is that vehicles accelerate to about 40mph between 
humps, then slam on the brakes.  It needs to be, and is, a legal limit, 
even though the police will rarely measure and enforce speeds on such roads.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[John Aldridge]

On 02-May-18 11:55, Philip Barnes wrote:



I believe it's DoT policy not to allow 30mph repeaters (at least,
someone told me that).


True for roads with street lighting, but quite common, and required, on 30 mph 
roads with no street lights.


Ah, yes, thank you (both) for the clarification. And, for completeness, 
here's the reference



http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/10/made



http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/10/part/4/paragraph/2/made


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John

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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Philip Barnes]

On 2 May 2018 11:53:20 BST, Jez Nicholson  wrote:
>Oh, this is fun. So, correct me if i'm wrong: a "20 mph zone" doesn't
>have/need repeaters because it is not actually the legal speed limit.
>It is
>advisory to travel at that speed because traffic calming makes it hard
>not
>to.

My local town centre has a 20 mph speed limit, but no traffic calming. Although 
its a medieval town so may be narrow street count? 

Phil (trigpoint) 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Adam Snape]

A 20 mph zone is a 20mph speed limit area. 20 mph repeater signs are judged
not to be necessary because the traffic calming measures physically limit
the speed of traffic.

A 20 mph limit simply imposed on an existing road without traffic calming
is deemed to require repeaters to differentiate it from a 30mph road.

On Wed, 2 May 2018, 11:54 Jez Nicholson,  wrote:

> Oh, this is fun. So, correct me if i'm wrong: a "20 mph zone" doesn't
> have/need repeaters because it is not actually the legal speed limit. It is
> advisory to travel at that speed because traffic calming makes it hard not
> to.
>
> On Wed, 2 May 2018 at 11:36 Adam Snape  wrote:
>
>> The school lights I'm aware of which refer to a maximum speed are
>> advisory rather than mandatory. The actual legal speed limit remains the
>> same.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> On Wed, 2 May 2018, 11:17 Brian Prangle,  wrote:
>>
>>> Just to further complicate matters there can also be conditional 20 mph
>>> speed limits on roads passing schools, so they're default 30mph unless the
>>> condition is met when they're 20 mph  - condition is usually flashing
>>> lights during school opening and closing times
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> On 1 May 2018 at 20:11, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
>>>
 Wow, this now is really helpful information! So good that you are on
 this list, this is exactly the kind of thing I was seeking when posting
 to here!
 Some replies and notes:

 1.
 > It even more common to believe that Restricted Roads are not NSL
 > roads. NSL Restricted Roads are a type of NSL road.

 How does it matter though? What does the keyword "NSL" imply?

 2. Also, what about dual carriageways (nsl_dual) that are lit? Will they
 then also default to 30 mph if there is no explicit sign that indeed one
 can go faster than that?

 3. So, from the document, I understand an "LSL for individual roads"
 would be "maxspeed:type=sign" translated to OSM while "LSL for zones"
 would be "maxspeed:type=GB:zoneXX" translated to OSM.
 I see in "OSM speak", we drop the "LSL" for these, but do not for the
 "NSL" stuff. General question, not directed specifically to you: Isn't
 that inconsistent?

 4. I see you use "UK:something". I think to use "GB:something" has
 somewhat established itself over UK by now, looking at taginfo. (Also,
 the ISO-3166 of United Kingdom is GB)

 5. I see you use "UK:zone_XX" instead of "UK:zoneXX". Also looking at
 taginfo, I think that the latter somewhat established itself over the
 former now: About 100,000 usages of XX:zoneYY, about 34,000 usages of
 XX:zone:YY and about 0 usages of XX:zone_YY

 ---

 By the way, offtopic this:
 Do not assume though that the UK is the only country with unnecesary
 complex maxspeed legislation. Look at this flow-chart created by Minh
 Nguyễn after researching this for Ohio, US: :-D

 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ohio/Map_features#Speed_limits

 Cheers
 Tobias

 On 01/05/2018 20:19, Jason Cunningham wrote:
 > I had a bit of an interest in tagging speed limits a few years back.
 > It's way more complicated than it should be in the UK. Researching led
 > me down a bit of a rabbit hole of legislation & case law.
 >
 > I made the following personal notes about UK limits and how to
 recognise
 > them, which I think is mostly correct.
 > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Jamicu/UK_Speed_Limits
 >
 > I personally tagged restricted roads as
 maxspeed:type=UK:nsl_restricted
 >
 > All a bit of a mess though.
 >
 > Jason
 >
 >
 > ___
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 >


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>>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Philip Barnes]

On 2 May 2018 11:46:35 BST, John Aldridge  wrote:
>On 01-May-18 16:29, Philip Barnes wrote:
>>> And yes, you may have to go back several roads before you see the
>>> speed limit sign. No all local authorities put up the repeater signs
>>> but that doesn't mean that the speed limit stops applying.
>> 
>> And 30mph limits don't need repeaters, for example it is possible to
>pass a 30mph limit outside Glenfield and certainly get several miles
>across the city without seeing another sign.
>
>I believe it's DoT policy not to allow 30mph repeaters (at least, 
>someone told me that).
>
True for roads with street lighting, but quite common, and required, on 30 mph 
roads with no street lights. 

Phil (trigpoint) 

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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Adam Snape]

On Wed, 2 May 2018, 11:47 John Aldridge,  wrote:

> I believe it's DoT policy not to allow 30mph repeaters (at least,
> someone told me that
>

This is correct on street lit where the 30mph limit would apply by default.
30mph repeaters can (and should) be used if a 30mph limit applies elsewhere.

>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Jez Nicholson]

Oh, this is fun. So, correct me if i'm wrong: a "20 mph zone" doesn't
have/need repeaters because it is not actually the legal speed limit. It is
advisory to travel at that speed because traffic calming makes it hard not
to.

On Wed, 2 May 2018 at 11:36 Adam Snape  wrote:

> The school lights I'm aware of which refer to a maximum speed are advisory
> rather than mandatory. The actual legal speed limit remains the same.
>
> Adam
>
> On Wed, 2 May 2018, 11:17 Brian Prangle,  wrote:
>
>> Just to further complicate matters there can also be conditional 20 mph
>> speed limits on roads passing schools, so they're default 30mph unless the
>> condition is met when they're 20 mph  - condition is usually flashing
>> lights during school opening and closing times
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> On 1 May 2018 at 20:11, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
>>
>>> Wow, this now is really helpful information! So good that you are on
>>> this list, this is exactly the kind of thing I was seeking when posting
>>> to here!
>>> Some replies and notes:
>>>
>>> 1.
>>> > It even more common to believe that Restricted Roads are not NSL
>>> > roads. NSL Restricted Roads are a type of NSL road.
>>>
>>> How does it matter though? What does the keyword "NSL" imply?
>>>
>>> 2. Also, what about dual carriageways (nsl_dual) that are lit? Will they
>>> then also default to 30 mph if there is no explicit sign that indeed one
>>> can go faster than that?
>>>
>>> 3. So, from the document, I understand an "LSL for individual roads"
>>> would be "maxspeed:type=sign" translated to OSM while "LSL for zones"
>>> would be "maxspeed:type=GB:zoneXX" translated to OSM.
>>> I see in "OSM speak", we drop the "LSL" for these, but do not for the
>>> "NSL" stuff. General question, not directed specifically to you: Isn't
>>> that inconsistent?
>>>
>>> 4. I see you use "UK:something". I think to use "GB:something" has
>>> somewhat established itself over UK by now, looking at taginfo. (Also,
>>> the ISO-3166 of United Kingdom is GB)
>>>
>>> 5. I see you use "UK:zone_XX" instead of "UK:zoneXX". Also looking at
>>> taginfo, I think that the latter somewhat established itself over the
>>> former now: About 100,000 usages of XX:zoneYY, about 34,000 usages of
>>> XX:zone:YY and about 0 usages of XX:zone_YY
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> By the way, offtopic this:
>>> Do not assume though that the UK is the only country with unnecesary
>>> complex maxspeed legislation. Look at this flow-chart created by Minh
>>> Nguyễn after researching this for Ohio, US: :-D
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ohio/Map_features#Speed_limits
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Tobias
>>>
>>> On 01/05/2018 20:19, Jason Cunningham wrote:
>>> > I had a bit of an interest in tagging speed limits a few years back.
>>> > It's way more complicated than it should be in the UK. Researching led
>>> > me down a bit of a rabbit hole of legislation & case law.
>>> >
>>> > I made the following personal notes about UK limits and how to
>>> recognise
>>> > them, which I think is mostly correct.
>>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Jamicu/UK_Speed_Limits
>>> >
>>> > I personally tagged restricted roads as
>>> maxspeed:type=UK:nsl_restricted
>>> >
>>> > All a bit of a mess though.
>>> >
>>> > Jason
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ___
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>>> > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>> >
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[John Aldridge]

On 01-May-18 16:29, Philip Barnes wrote:

And yes, you may have to go back several roads before you see the
speed limit sign. No all local authorities put up the repeater signs
but that doesn't mean that the speed limit stops applying.


And 30mph limits don't need repeaters, for example it is possible to pass a 
30mph limit outside Glenfield and certainly get several miles across the city 
without seeing another sign.


I believe it's DoT policy not to allow 30mph repeaters (at least, 
someone told me that).


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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Adam Snape]

The school lights I'm aware of which refer to a maximum speed are advisory
rather than mandatory. The actual legal speed limit remains the same.

Adam

On Wed, 2 May 2018, 11:17 Brian Prangle,  wrote:

> Just to further complicate matters there can also be conditional 20 mph
> speed limits on roads passing schools, so they're default 30mph unless the
> condition is met when they're 20 mph  - condition is usually flashing
> lights during school opening and closing times
>
> Regards
>
> Brian
>
> On 1 May 2018 at 20:11, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
>
>> Wow, this now is really helpful information! So good that you are on
>> this list, this is exactly the kind of thing I was seeking when posting
>> to here!
>> Some replies and notes:
>>
>> 1.
>> > It even more common to believe that Restricted Roads are not NSL
>> > roads. NSL Restricted Roads are a type of NSL road.
>>
>> How does it matter though? What does the keyword "NSL" imply?
>>
>> 2. Also, what about dual carriageways (nsl_dual) that are lit? Will they
>> then also default to 30 mph if there is no explicit sign that indeed one
>> can go faster than that?
>>
>> 3. So, from the document, I understand an "LSL for individual roads"
>> would be "maxspeed:type=sign" translated to OSM while "LSL for zones"
>> would be "maxspeed:type=GB:zoneXX" translated to OSM.
>> I see in "OSM speak", we drop the "LSL" for these, but do not for the
>> "NSL" stuff. General question, not directed specifically to you: Isn't
>> that inconsistent?
>>
>> 4. I see you use "UK:something". I think to use "GB:something" has
>> somewhat established itself over UK by now, looking at taginfo. (Also,
>> the ISO-3166 of United Kingdom is GB)
>>
>> 5. I see you use "UK:zone_XX" instead of "UK:zoneXX". Also looking at
>> taginfo, I think that the latter somewhat established itself over the
>> former now: About 100,000 usages of XX:zoneYY, about 34,000 usages of
>> XX:zone:YY and about 0 usages of XX:zone_YY
>>
>> ---
>>
>> By the way, offtopic this:
>> Do not assume though that the UK is the only country with unnecesary
>> complex maxspeed legislation. Look at this flow-chart created by Minh
>> Nguyễn after researching this for Ohio, US: :-D
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ohio/Map_features#Speed_limits
>>
>> Cheers
>> Tobias
>>
>> On 01/05/2018 20:19, Jason Cunningham wrote:
>> > I had a bit of an interest in tagging speed limits a few years back.
>> > It's way more complicated than it should be in the UK. Researching led
>> > me down a bit of a rabbit hole of legislation & case law.
>> >
>> > I made the following personal notes about UK limits and how to recognise
>> > them, which I think is mostly correct.
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Jamicu/UK_Speed_Limits
>> >
>> > I personally tagged restricted roads as  maxspeed:type=UK:nsl_restricted
>> >
>> > All a bit of a mess though.
>> >
>> > Jason
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
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>> >
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Brian Prangle]

Just to further complicate matters there can also be conditional 20 mph
speed limits on roads passing schools, so they're default 30mph unless the
condition is met when they're 20 mph  - condition is usually flashing
lights during school opening and closing times

Regards

Brian

On 1 May 2018 at 20:11, Tobias Zwick  wrote:

> Wow, this now is really helpful information! So good that you are on
> this list, this is exactly the kind of thing I was seeking when posting
> to here!
> Some replies and notes:
>
> 1.
> > It even more common to believe that Restricted Roads are not NSL
> > roads. NSL Restricted Roads are a type of NSL road.
>
> How does it matter though? What does the keyword "NSL" imply?
>
> 2. Also, what about dual carriageways (nsl_dual) that are lit? Will they
> then also default to 30 mph if there is no explicit sign that indeed one
> can go faster than that?
>
> 3. So, from the document, I understand an "LSL for individual roads"
> would be "maxspeed:type=sign" translated to OSM while "LSL for zones"
> would be "maxspeed:type=GB:zoneXX" translated to OSM.
> I see in "OSM speak", we drop the "LSL" for these, but do not for the
> "NSL" stuff. General question, not directed specifically to you: Isn't
> that inconsistent?
>
> 4. I see you use "UK:something". I think to use "GB:something" has
> somewhat established itself over UK by now, looking at taginfo. (Also,
> the ISO-3166 of United Kingdom is GB)
>
> 5. I see you use "UK:zone_XX" instead of "UK:zoneXX". Also looking at
> taginfo, I think that the latter somewhat established itself over the
> former now: About 100,000 usages of XX:zoneYY, about 34,000 usages of
> XX:zone:YY and about 0 usages of XX:zone_YY
>
> ---
>
> By the way, offtopic this:
> Do not assume though that the UK is the only country with unnecesary
> complex maxspeed legislation. Look at this flow-chart created by Minh
> Nguyễn after researching this for Ohio, US: :-D
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ohio/Map_features#Speed_limits
>
> Cheers
> Tobias
>
> On 01/05/2018 20:19, Jason Cunningham wrote:
> > I had a bit of an interest in tagging speed limits a few years back.
> > It's way more complicated than it should be in the UK. Researching led
> > me down a bit of a rabbit hole of legislation & case law.
> >
> > I made the following personal notes about UK limits and how to recognise
> > them, which I think is mostly correct.
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Jamicu/UK_Speed_Limits
> >
> > I personally tagged restricted roads as  maxspeed:type=UK:nsl_restricted
> >
> > All a bit of a mess though.
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Jason Cunningham]

I had a bit of an interest in tagging speed limits a few years back. It's
way more complicated than it should be in the UK. Researching led me down a
bit of a rabbit hole of legislation & case law.

I made the following personal notes about UK limits and how to recognise
them, which I think is mostly correct.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Jamicu/UK_Speed_Limits

I personally tagged restricted roads as  maxspeed:type=UK:nsl_restricted

All a bit of a mess though.

Jason
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Tobias Zwick]

So then, in case the user answers in the app that there is no sign, the
app could ask the user whether the street is lit. Only if it is not lit,
it tags the street as nsl_single/nsl_dual. Would that solution be correct?

On 01/05/2018 19:22, Philip Barnes wrote:
> On Tue, 2018-05-01 at 18:42 +0200, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>> Does the "there are no repeater signs" rule only apply for the
>> default
>> 30 mph limit (and the 20 mph zones)? Or in other words, if there is
>> an
>> explicit different limit posted, let's say 40 mph, does it have to be
>> repeated at each intersection and feed roads?
>>
> It applies for 30 mph limits where there is street lighting, I have
> never come across an unlit 20 mph zone.
> 
> If there is no street lighting the National Speed Limit applies, unless
> there are repeater signs. Hence you will find 30 mph repeater signs in
> unlit 30 mph limits.
> 
> Repeaters are spaced at an regular intervals (up to about 400m), there
> is no connection with junctions.
> 
> If a NSL road is lit, then that will need repeaters (not motorways).
> 
> All 40/50mph roads need repeaters, unless the limit is very short.
> 
> An example of a 30 mph repeater.
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/cQ-aZU75WoEDEr72_gj4xA
> 
> Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue, 2018-05-01 at 19:15 +0200, Colin Smale wrote:
> In most European countries there are rules/conventions that the sign
> only applies until the next junction, at which point the sign must be
> repeated if required. 
That is something I found really confusing the first time I drove in
Belgium. There were lower speed limit signs  on the approach to a
junction, but no sign to cancel it out yet there was another sign at
the next junction.

I had just assumed that they forget about the limit after a bit and
tended to assume it had finished when I saw the sign on the other side
of the junction.

One difference between the UK and other European countries is that
opposite directions cannot (or never does?) have a different speed
limit on a single carriageway. 

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue, 2018-05-01 at 18:42 +0200, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> Does the "there are no repeater signs" rule only apply for the
> default
> 30 mph limit (and the 20 mph zones)? Or in other words, if there is
> an
> explicit different limit posted, let's say 40 mph, does it have to be
> repeated at each intersection and feed roads?
> 
It applies for 30 mph limits where there is street lighting, I have
never come across an unlit 20 mph zone.

If there is no street lighting the National Speed Limit applies, unless
there are repeater signs. Hence you will find 30 mph repeater signs in
unlit 30 mph limits.

Repeaters are spaced at an regular intervals (up to about 400m), there
is no connection with junctions.

If a NSL road is lit, then that will need repeaters (not motorways).

All 40/50mph roads need repeaters, unless the limit is very short.

An example of a 30 mph repeater.
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/cQ-aZU75WoEDEr72_gj4xA

Phil (trigpoint)






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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Colin Smale]

If it is marked as a 20mph Zone, the limit must be self-enforcing
through chicanes, speed bumps and similar. Repeaters are neither needed
nor permitted. If it is not a Zone, but simply a road with a 20mph
limit, repeaters are required. 

https://www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/drivers/speed/20mph-zones-and-limits/


In the UK, in contrast to the rest of Europe, a road sign is supposed to
be valid "until further notice". In most European countries there are
rules/conventions that the sign only applies until the next junction, at
which point the sign must be repeated if required. There is also a
subtle legal difference: in the UK it is the "Traffic Order" that
determines the rule, and the highway authority is supposed to place
signs to inform people. But if somebody steals the sign and you
unwittingly drive too fast or whatever, a prima facie offence has been
committed and you will have to claim the absence of a sign as mitigating
circumstances. In Europe the offence is committed by ignoring the sign,
so if there is no sign, then no offence has occurred.

On 2018-05-01 18:42, Tobias Zwick wrote:

> Does the "there are no repeater signs" rule only apply for the default
> 30 mph limit (and the 20 mph zones)? Or in other words, if there is an
> explicit different limit posted, let's say 40 mph, does it have to be
> repeated at each intersection and feed roads?
> 
> Tobias
> 
> On 01/05/2018 16:35, Philip Barnes wrote: 
> 
> On 1 May 2018 10:41:28 BST, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
> 
> This is where I need your help. How should the dialog be changed (in
> GB)
> to not create any misunderstandings here?
> Difficult without having seen the speed limit signs as you have entered the 
> zone. 
> 
> My usual approach is to survey the change points, split the ways at those 
> points. Often the limit change is painted on the road so can be seen on 
> imagery. 
> 
> 20 limits are likely to exist in the centre and close to schools, so those 
> areas need survey to check. If in doubt leave the limit unmapped.
> 
> The radial roads are the usual start point for mapping speed limits, these 
> are where the transitions usually occur and are where the 40 zones are found. 
> In cities it is rare to find a direct 30 to NSL change.
> 
> If a road is has no speed limit sign it will inherit the speed limit from its 
> feed road, which if that has been mapped makes it easy.
> 
> In the case of short limits where a road passes through a small village you 
> need to be able to split the way at the zone transitions otherwise you will 
> end up tagging the entire way.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue, 2018-05-01 at 17:34 +0100, Jonathan wrote:
> Am I missing something? The 20 mph signs are the same as all speed
> restrictions signs are they not?
>  
They have the word Zone on the sign
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/keuNX2tehPliEtm3Xt6CSg
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/MaJPHJLV32f4b490E9csuA

Some have Home Zone
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/HtFs_VPqYbt88BcVDK2Zdw

And whilst I don't have any mapillary, there are signs where the Wem's
other Home Zone meets the town centre Zone.

And in Wales they include the word Parth

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Tobias Zwick]

Does the "there are no repeater signs" rule only apply for the default
30 mph limit (and the 20 mph zones)? Or in other words, if there is an
explicit different limit posted, let's say 40 mph, does it have to be
repeated at each intersection and feed roads?

Tobias

On 01/05/2018 16:35, Philip Barnes wrote:
> 
> 
> On 1 May 2018 10:41:28 BST, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
> 
>> This is where I need your help. How should the dialog be changed (in
>> GB)
>> to not create any misunderstandings here?
>>
> Difficult without having seen the speed limit signs as you have entered the 
> zone. 
> 
> My usual approach is to survey the change points, split the ways at those 
> points. Often the limit change is painted on the road so can be seen on 
> imagery. 
> 
> 20 limits are likely to exist in the centre and close to schools, so those 
> areas need survey to check. If in doubt leave the limit unmapped.
> 
> The radial roads are the usual start point for mapping speed limits, these 
> are where the transitions usually occur and are where the 40 zones are found. 
> In cities it is rare to find a direct 30 to NSL change.
> 
> If a road is has no speed limit sign it will inherit the speed limit from its 
> feed road, which if that has been mapped makes it easy.
> 
> In the case of short limits where a road passes through a small village you 
> need to be able to split the way at the zone transitions otherwise you will 
> end up tagging the entire way.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint) 
> 


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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Jonathan]

Am I missing something? The 20 mph signs are the same as all speed restrictions 
signs are they not?

Jonathan
http://bigfatfrog67.me

From: Tobias Zwick
Sent: 01 May 2018 10:45
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

This tag is not invented, it exists in other countries where slow zones
exist as well.
Also, there *is* something special about it, otherwise the sign would
not be different from a normal maxspeed sign, wouldn't it? (And the
wikipedia article wouldn't exist)
The special thing about it, is that the posted maxspeed is valid for the
whole zone, in other words, until the maxspeed zone is explicitly posted
to be over. No repeater signs on crossroads and not even for adjacent
streets.

Yes, there is a certain similarity with the "normal" 30 mph limit in the
UK, that is why I mentioned "maxspeed:type=GB:zone30" in my original
post. Remember that OSM is a worldwide project, as long as something is
not the same in the whole world, it is not "normal".

Tobias

On 01/05/2018 11:16, Philip Barnes wrote:
> I wouldn't invent a type tag, it's maxspeed = 20 mph because that's what
> the sign says. There is nothing special about these areas.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint) 
> 
> 
> On 1 May 2018 09:58:23 BST, Tobias Zwick <o...@westnordost.de> wrote:
> 
> Regarding the 20mph zones
> (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_km/h_zone), analogous to other
> countries where they exist, they would be tagged as 
> maxspeed:type=GB:zone20.
> 
> On 30/04/2018 20:57, Philip Barnes wrote:
> 
> Whilst in theory there is an implicit 30mph when street lights are
> present and there are no repeater signs indicating a higher
> limit then
> the speed limit is 30 mph. It has nothing to do with urban, the same
> rule will apply on lit rural roads. These days it is complicated by
> 20mph limits which also have no repeaters.
> 
> That is the theory, however in over 40 years of driving and even
> longer
> cycling I have never come across an unsigned 30mph limit. It is
> always
> signed as you enter the zone. Whilst it's useful for
> confirmation whilst
> driving, it is not really useful for mapping, you need to survey the
> start points so that it can be split at the appropriate points.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> 
> On 30 April 2018 18:41:26 BST, Tobias Zwick <o...@westnordost.de>
> wrote:
> 
> Hi there
> 
> On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki
> lists
> the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type":
> 
> GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway
> (=70 mph)
> 
> I understand that the current legislation defines a road with
> road-lighting as a built-up area in which a lower implicit speed
> limit
> of 30 mph applies. There is no mention of it in the wiki, no
> GB:urban,
> GB:lit, GB:zone30 or anything like that, so something should be
> defined
> and documented by (you,) the British OSM community.
> 
> My question:
> How to tag roads in which such an implicit speed limit for built-up
> areas applies?
> 
> The question is motivated by an issue report for StreetComplete [2]
> 
> Cheers
> Tobias
> 
> [1]
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table
> 
> [2] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/1037
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue, 2018-05-01 at 16:09 +, Nick Whitelegg wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: sorry, silly question. For some reason I overlooked that JOSM
> works with OSM OAuth, so the answer to the general question "can a
> non-web app authenticate with OSM" would appear to be yes.
> 
> 
> 
StreetComplete uses your OSM account, as do maps.me, OSMand and
Vespucci.

Phil (trigpoint)





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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Nick Whitelegg]

EDIT: sorry, silly question. For some reason I overlooked that JOSM works with 
OSM OAuth, so the answer to the general question "can a non-web app 
authenticate with OSM" would appear to be yes.


Nick



From: Nick Whitelegg <nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk>
Sent: 01 May 2018 16:48:21
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?


... this would be with a user's individual account by the way, not some generic 
anonymous account.


Thanks,

Nick



From: Nick Whitelegg
Sent: 01 May 2018 16:46:53
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?



I realise I'm going a bit OT here and this is more a dev topic, but  while 
we're on this topic, I'm just wondering whether it possible to authenticate via 
OSM OAuth from an app directly? StreetComplete calls the login page of OSM by 
invoking the web browser.


I'm guessing the answer might be no because OAuth generally requires a callback 
URL, however there do seem to be a few OAuth 1.x libraries for Android out 
there.


Just wondering as I have my own app (geared at UK walkers contributing to OSM) 
which will ask users to authenticate with OSM and it would be nicer if it could 
be done in-app.

Thanks,

Nick



From: Andy Townsend <ajt1...@gmail.com>
Sent: 01 May 2018 15:42:10
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 01/05/2018 12:43, David Woolley wrote:
> On 01/05/18 12:23, David Woolley wrote:
>> I don't know about your tool, but it is essential that every user has
>> an explicit personal account with OSM, and that they are set up to
>> receive emails if people add changeset comments, or post messages to
>> their OSM account. maps.me has a high incidence of people who seem
>> not to notice changeset comments.
>
> In particular, apps need to be able to recognize that there is a 0
> hour block on a user and allow them to access the changeset comments
> to see the reason, and remove the block.  I don't know how the API
> distinguishes administrative blocks from other failures.

 From a DWG perspective, I don't think we're ever been asked to or
needed to "0-hour block" a Street Complete user.  They know what OSM is,
know what they signed up for and are aware that it's a community and
that people might contact them about their edits.

We have had to block users of other problem apps - in one notable case
because a "surveying" app added the same data, many times, at the same
(incorrect) latitude each time (forming a nice ring just south of the
equator).  Other users of "map" apps sometimes don't understand what OSM
is at all; they don't realise that when they "add a note" they're adding
a note to OSM, not just to their personal map.  That's an issue with the
apps concerned though, and doesn't apply to Street Complete.

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Nick Whitelegg]

... this would be with a user's individual account by the way, not some generic 
anonymous account.


Thanks,

Nick



From: Nick Whitelegg
Sent: 01 May 2018 16:46:53
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?



I realise I'm going a bit OT here and this is more a dev topic, but  while 
we're on this topic, I'm just wondering whether it possible to authenticate via 
OSM OAuth from an app directly? StreetComplete calls the login page of OSM by 
invoking the web browser.


I'm guessing the answer might be no because OAuth generally requires a callback 
URL, however there do seem to be a few OAuth 1.x libraries for Android out 
there.


Just wondering as I have my own app (geared at UK walkers contributing to OSM) 
which will ask users to authenticate with OSM and it would be nicer if it could 
be done in-app.

Thanks,

Nick



From: Andy Townsend <ajt1...@gmail.com>
Sent: 01 May 2018 15:42:10
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 01/05/2018 12:43, David Woolley wrote:
> On 01/05/18 12:23, David Woolley wrote:
>> I don't know about your tool, but it is essential that every user has
>> an explicit personal account with OSM, and that they are set up to
>> receive emails if people add changeset comments, or post messages to
>> their OSM account. maps.me has a high incidence of people who seem
>> not to notice changeset comments.
>
> In particular, apps need to be able to recognize that there is a 0
> hour block on a user and allow them to access the changeset comments
> to see the reason, and remove the block.  I don't know how the API
> distinguishes administrative blocks from other failures.

 From a DWG perspective, I don't think we're ever been asked to or
needed to "0-hour block" a Street Complete user.  They know what OSM is,
know what they signed up for and are aware that it's a community and
that people might contact them about their edits.

We have had to block users of other problem apps - in one notable case
because a "surveying" app added the same data, many times, at the same
(incorrect) latitude each time (forming a nice ring just south of the
equator).  Other users of "map" apps sometimes don't understand what OSM
is at all; they don't realise that when they "add a note" they're adding
a note to OSM, not just to their personal map.  That's an issue with the
apps concerned though, and doesn't apply to Street Complete.

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Nick Whitelegg]

I realise I'm going a bit OT here and this is more a dev topic, but  while 
we're on this topic, I'm just wondering whether it possible to authenticate via 
OSM OAuth from an app directly? StreetComplete calls the login page of OSM by 
invoking the web browser.


I'm guessing the answer might be no because OAuth generally requires a callback 
URL, however there do seem to be a few OAuth 1.x libraries for Android out 
there.


Just wondering as I have my own app (geared at UK walkers contributing to OSM) 
which will ask users to authenticate with OSM and it would be nicer if it could 
be done in-app.

Thanks,

Nick



From: Andy Townsend <ajt1...@gmail.com>
Sent: 01 May 2018 15:42:10
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 01/05/2018 12:43, David Woolley wrote:
> On 01/05/18 12:23, David Woolley wrote:
>> I don't know about your tool, but it is essential that every user has
>> an explicit personal account with OSM, and that they are set up to
>> receive emails if people add changeset comments, or post messages to
>> their OSM account. maps.me has a high incidence of people who seem
>> not to notice changeset comments.
>
> In particular, apps need to be able to recognize that there is a 0
> hour block on a user and allow them to access the changeset comments
> to see the reason, and remove the block.  I don't know how the API
> distinguishes administrative blocks from other failures.

 From a DWG perspective, I don't think we're ever been asked to or
needed to "0-hour block" a Street Complete user.  They know what OSM is,
know what they signed up for and are aware that it's a community and
that people might contact them about their edits.

We have had to block users of other problem apps - in one notable case
because a "surveying" app added the same data, many times, at the same
(incorrect) latitude each time (forming a nice ring just south of the
equator).  Other users of "map" apps sometimes don't understand what OSM
is at all; they don't realise that when they "add a note" they're adding
a note to OSM, not just to their personal map.  That's an issue with the
apps concerned though, and doesn't apply to Street Complete.

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Philip Barnes]

That should include Leicester.

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 1 May 2018 16:29:15 BST, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
>
>On 1 May 2018 16:17:40 BST, Rob Nickerson 
>wrote:
>>>When the user answers *"Yes, no sign"*
>>
>>At that point the easiest option is for the app to simply stop. Add no
>>data to OSM.
>>
>>And yes, you may have to go back several roads before you see the
>>speed limit sign. No all local authorities put up the repeater signs
>>but that doesn't mean that the speed limit stops applying.
>
>And 30mph limits don't need repeaters, for example it is possible to
>pass a 30mph limit outside Glenfield and certainly get several miles
>across the city without seeing another sign. 
>
>Phil (trigpoint) 
>>
>>Rob
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Philip Barnes]

On 1 May 2018 16:17:40 BST, Rob Nickerson  wrote:
>>When the user answers *"Yes, no sign"*
>
>At that point the easiest option is for the app to simply stop. Add no
>data to OSM.
>
>And yes, you may have to go back several roads before you see the
>speed limit sign. No all local authorities put up the repeater signs
>but that doesn't mean that the speed limit stops applying.

And 30mph limits don't need repeaters, for example it is possible to pass a 
30mph limit outside Glenfield and certainly get several miles across the city 
without seeing another sign. 

Phil (trigpoint) 
>
>Rob

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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Andy Townsend]

On 01/05/2018 12:43, David Woolley wrote:

On 01/05/18 12:23, David Woolley wrote:
I don't know about your tool, but it is essential that every user has 
an explicit personal account with OSM, and that they are set up to 
receive emails if people add changeset comments, or post messages to 
their OSM account. maps.me has a high incidence of people who seem 
not to notice changeset comments.


In particular, apps need to be able to recognize that there is a 0 
hour block on a user and allow them to access the changeset comments 
to see the reason, and remove the block.  I don't know how the API 
distinguishes administrative blocks from other failures. 


From a DWG perspective, I don't think we're ever been asked to or 
needed to "0-hour block" a Street Complete user.  They know what OSM is, 
know what they signed up for and are aware that it's a community and 
that people might contact them about their edits.


We have had to block users of other problem apps - in one notable case 
because a "surveying" app added the same data, many times, at the same 
(incorrect) latitude each time (forming a nice ring just south of the 
equator).  Other users of "map" apps sometimes don't understand what OSM 
is at all; they don't realise that when they "add a note" they're adding 
a note to OSM, not just to their personal map.  That's an issue with the 
apps concerned though, and doesn't apply to Street Complete.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Philip Barnes]

On 1 May 2018 10:41:28 BST, Tobias Zwick  wrote:

>This is where I need your help. How should the dialog be changed (in
>GB)
>to not create any misunderstandings here?
>
Difficult without having seen the speed limit signs as you have entered the 
zone. 

My usual approach is to survey the change points, split the ways at those 
points. Often the limit change is painted on the road so can be seen on 
imagery. 

20 limits are likely to exist in the centre and close to schools, so those 
areas need survey to check. If in doubt leave the limit unmapped.

The radial roads are the usual start point for mapping speed limits, these are 
where the transitions usually occur and are where the 40 zones are found. In 
cities it is rare to find a direct 30 to NSL change.

If a road is has no speed limit sign it will inherit the speed limit from its 
feed road, which if that has been mapped makes it easy.

In the case of short limits where a road passes through a small village you 
need to be able to split the way at the zone transitions otherwise you will end 
up tagging the entire way.

Phil (trigpoint) 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[SK53]

In fairness to Tobias:

   - StreetComplete is a well-used app (over 10k installs according to
   Google Play), representing 2% of all changesets last year.
   - It offers a way for people who don't want to engage with the full
   complexity of learning an editor (as represented by the person who raised
   an issue against the app on github).
   - He has engaged very thoroughly with the OSM GB/UK community (as in
   this case & in the past on national speed limits).
   - I think the thread was started because he wants to improve the app &
   user experience, and therefore wants more info from us.
   - The 'quests'
    seem to be
   chosen carefully to select topics where existing data is readily enhanced.


Jerry

On 1 May 2018 at 12:43, David Woolley  wrote:

> On 01/05/18 12:23, David Woolley wrote:
>
>> I don't know about your tool, but it is essential that every user has an
>> explicit personal account with OSM, and that they are set up to receive
>> emails if people add changeset comments, or post messages to their OSM
>> account.  maps.me has a high incidence of people who seem not to notice
>> changeset comments.
>>
>
> In particular, apps need to be able to recognize that there is a 0 hour
> block on a user and allow them to access the changeset comments to see the
> reason, and remove the block.  I don't know how the API distinguishes
> administrative blocks from other failures.
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Tobias Zwick]

Did you read my last paragraph? Could you respond also to that?

On 01/05/2018 13:23, David Woolley wrote:
> Two or three years ago, we had problem of lots of bogus "wrong speed
> limit" notes being added by one particular app.  The general result ws
> that no-one took any notice of the notes from that app.  More recently,
> we have had problems from maps.me, although possibly not for speed limits.
> 
> I think it can be quite dangerous to give people apps that fix or note
> particular problems to people who don't know how to map using the more
> general tools.
> 
> I don't know about your tool, but it is essential that every user has an
> explicit personal account with OSM, and that they are set up to receive
> emails if people add changeset comments, or post messages to their OSM
> account.  maps.me has a high incidence of people who seem not to notice
> changeset comments.
> 
> On 01/05/18 10:41, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>> I am quite sure that this problem can lead to wrong tagging,
>> specifically that normal urban roads, even residential ones, are tagged
>> with "maxspeed:type=nsl_single" when they should not.
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[David Woolley]

On 01/05/18 12:23, David Woolley wrote:
I don't know about your tool, but it is essential that every user has an 
explicit personal account with OSM, and that they are set up to receive 
emails if people add changeset comments, or post messages to their OSM 
account.  maps.me has a high incidence of people who seem not to notice 
changeset comments.


In particular, apps need to be able to recognize that there is a 0 hour 
block on a user and allow them to access the changeset comments to see 
the reason, and remove the block.  I don't know how the API 
distinguishes administrative blocks from other failures.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Andy Townsend]

On 01/05/2018 12:23, David Woolley wrote:


I don't know about your tool, but it is essential that every user has 
an explicit personal account with OSM, and that they are set up to 
receive emails if people add changeset comments, or post messages to 
their OSM account.  maps.me has a high incidence of people who seem 
not to notice changeset comments.


In addition I'd suggest that any such app ought to give a user the 
chance to reply "that is not a sensible question to ask" (perhaps with a 
bit of text as feedback to the app/quest developer explaining why) that 
doesn't change OSM, doesn't add a note and removes the question for at 
least that user from the app.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[David Woolley]

Two or three years ago, we had problem of lots of bogus "wrong speed 
limit" notes being added by one particular app.  The general result ws 
that no-one took any notice of the notes from that app.  More recently, 
we have had problems from maps.me, although possibly not for speed limits.


I think it can be quite dangerous to give people apps that fix or note 
particular problems to people who don't know how to map using the more 
general tools.


I don't know about your tool, but it is essential that every user has an 
explicit personal account with OSM, and that they are set up to receive 
emails if people add changeset comments, or post messages to their OSM 
account.  maps.me has a high incidence of people who seem not to notice 
changeset comments.


On 01/05/18 10:41, Tobias Zwick wrote:

I am quite sure that this problem can lead to wrong tagging,
specifically that normal urban roads, even residential ones, are tagged
with "maxspeed:type=nsl_single" when they should not.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Tobias Zwick]

This tag is not invented, it exists in other countries where slow zones
exist as well.
Also, there *is* something special about it, otherwise the sign would
not be different from a normal maxspeed sign, wouldn't it? (And the
wikipedia article wouldn't exist)
The special thing about it, is that the posted maxspeed is valid for the
whole zone, in other words, until the maxspeed zone is explicitly posted
to be over. No repeater signs on crossroads and not even for adjacent
streets.

Yes, there is a certain similarity with the "normal" 30 mph limit in the
UK, that is why I mentioned "maxspeed:type=GB:zone30" in my original
post. Remember that OSM is a worldwide project, as long as something is
not the same in the whole world, it is not "normal".

Tobias

On 01/05/2018 11:16, Philip Barnes wrote:
> I wouldn't invent a type tag, it's maxspeed = 20 mph because that's what
> the sign says. There is nothing special about these areas.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint) 
> 
> 
> On 1 May 2018 09:58:23 BST, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
> 
> Regarding the 20mph zones
> (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_km/h_zone), analogous to other
> countries where they exist, they would be tagged as 
> maxspeed:type=GB:zone20.
> 
> On 30/04/2018 20:57, Philip Barnes wrote:
> 
> Whilst in theory there is an implicit 30mph when street lights are
> present and there are no repeater signs indicating a higher
> limit then
> the speed limit is 30 mph. It has nothing to do with urban, the same
> rule will apply on lit rural roads. These days it is complicated by
> 20mph limits which also have no repeaters.
> 
> That is the theory, however in over 40 years of driving and even
> longer
> cycling I have never come across an unsigned 30mph limit. It is
> always
> signed as you enter the zone. Whilst it's useful for
> confirmation whilst
> driving, it is not really useful for mapping, you need to survey the
> start points so that it can be split at the appropriate points.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> 
> On 30 April 2018 18:41:26 BST, Tobias Zwick 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi there
> 
> On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki
> lists
> the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type":
> 
> GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway
> (=70 mph)
> 
> I understand that the current legislation defines a road with
> road-lighting as a built-up area in which a lower implicit speed
> limit
> of 30 mph applies. There is no mention of it in the wiki, no
> GB:urban,
> GB:lit, GB:zone30 or anything like that, so something should be
> defined
> and documented by (you,) the British OSM community.
> 
> My question:
> How to tag roads in which such an implicit speed limit for built-up
> areas applies?
> 
> The question is motivated by an issue report for StreetComplete [2]
> 
> Cheers
> Tobias
> 
> [1]
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table
> 
> [2] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/1037
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Tobias Zwick]

Okay, I have the impression that the tenor of the answers I got so far
is that a "maxspeed:type=GB:something" tagging would not be necessary
because in practice in the UK, any 30mph limit on lit streets will be
posted explicitly. Thus, the maxspeed should be specified explicitly
(along with "maxspeed:type=sign").

To those who find I summed up their opinion on that matter correctly, I
would like to confront you with an actual problem I encountered with the
surveyor-app StreetComplete of which I am the author of. I linked the
ticket to this issue in my original post.

I am quite sure that this problem can lead to wrong tagging,
specifically that normal urban roads, even residential ones, are tagged
with "maxspeed:type=nsl_single" when they should not.

So I very much want to solve this problem as soon as possible and I am
hoping you can help to find a solution to it and/or understand my point
of view that *some* "maxspeed:type" or similar tagging might be necessary.

I will now explain how this mistagging might come about in the dialogue
of the user with the app:

The app shows the street section which it is about highlighted and asks:
*"What is the speed limit sign for this street?"*
The user can then either fill in an explicit speed limit or answer
"There is no sign".

So, in case the user does not see any sign, as he would on a typical
British urban street, he answers: *"There is no sign"*

The app asks: *"Are you sure no limit is posted? Did you check at the
ends of the street? If there are no signs along the whole street which
apply for the highlighted section, default speed limits apply."*
...and in case of a road tagged as residential, it shows a slow-zone
sign and adds:
*"If there is a sign like this at the main street intersection, you
won't find individual signs within the zone because the speed limit
posted there applies to the whole zone."*

When the user answers *"Yes, no sign"*,
the app just asks (for GB): *"Are the carriageways of this road here
physically separated (i.e. through a barrier)? The default speed limit
depends on whether this is the case or not."*
The app then tags "maxspeed:type=nsl_single" or "maxspeed:type=nsl_dual"
based on the user's answer.

So, if I understand correctly, this "default 30mph limit" within lit
sections of British roads is always signed, yes, but otherwise behave
like 20mph zones in that there are no repeater signs at intersections
and *not even* in roads that branch of this main road and roads that
branch of the branched off roads (right?).
This would mean, that in Britain, it is not enough to tell the user to
look for a sign at the start of the road, but to, well, what exactly?
This is where I need your help. How should the dialog be changed (in GB)
to not create any misunderstandings here?

Tobias


On 30/04/2018 19:41, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> Hi there
> 
> On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki lists
> the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type":
> 
> GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway (=70 mph)
> 
> I understand that the current legislation defines a road with
> road-lighting as a built-up area in which a lower implicit speed limit
> of 30 mph applies. There is no mention of it in the wiki, no GB:urban,
> GB:lit, GB:zone30 or anything like that, so something should be defined
> and documented by (you,) the British OSM community.
> 
> My question:
> How to tag roads in which such an implicit speed limit for built-up
> areas applies?
> 
> The question is motivated by an issue report for StreetComplete [2]
> 
> Cheers
> Tobias
> 
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table
> 
> [2] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/1037
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Richard Fairhurst]

Philip Barnes wrote:
> I wouldn't invent a type tag, it's maxspeed = 20 mph 
> because that's what the sign says. There is nothing special 
> about these areas.

No, 20mph zones and roads with 20mph limits are different legal concepts and
are signed differently. A 20mph zone must have physical traffic calming. See
TSRGD Schedule 10.

That said, for OSM purposes, I agreed that there is no reason to add
additional tags over and above maxspeed=. In practice all 20mph and 30mph
limits are signed, and whether or not there are repeater signs makes no
difference: the speed limits are discernible, verifiable facts. 

Going back to the Street Complete issue which prompted this thread, in
https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/1037#issuecomment-385278398,
suggestion #1 (the "quest" should be about speed limits, not the presence or
absence of signs) is pretty clearly the way to go.

Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Philip Barnes]

I wouldn't invent a type tag, it's maxspeed = 20 mph because that's what the 
sign says. There is nothing special about these areas.

Phil (trigpoint) 


On 1 May 2018 09:58:23 BST, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
>Regarding the 20mph zones
>(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_km/h_zone), analogous to other
>countries where they exist, they would be tagged as
>maxspeed:type=GB:zone20.
>
>On 30/04/2018 20:57, Philip Barnes wrote:
>> Whilst in theory there is an implicit 30mph when street lights are
>> present and there are no repeater signs indicating a higher limit
>then
>> the speed limit is 30 mph. It has nothing to do with urban, the same
>> rule will apply on lit rural roads. These days it is complicated by
>> 20mph limits which also have no repeaters.
>> 
>> That is the theory, however in over 40 years of driving and even
>longer
>> cycling I have never come across an unsigned 30mph limit. It is
>always
>> signed as you enter the zone. Whilst it's useful for confirmation
>whilst
>> driving, it is not really useful for mapping, you need to survey the
>> start points so that it can be split at the appropriate points.
>> 
>> Phil (trigpoint)
>> 
>> 
>> On 30 April 2018 18:41:26 BST, Tobias Zwick 
>wrote:
>> 
>> Hi there
>> 
>> On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki
>lists
>> the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type":
>> 
>> GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway
>(=70 mph)
>> 
>> I understand that the current legislation defines a road with
>> road-lighting as a built-up area in which a lower implicit speed
>limit
>> of 30 mph applies. There is no mention of it in the wiki, no
>GB:urban,
>> GB:lit, GB:zone30 or anything like that, so something should be
>defined
>> and documented by (you,) the British OSM community.
>> 
>> My question:
>> How to tag roads in which such an implicit speed limit for
>built-up
>> areas applies?
>> 
>> The question is motivated by an issue report for StreetComplete
>[2]
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Tobias
>> 
>> [1]
>>
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table
>> 
>> [2] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/1037
>> 
>>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Tobias Zwick]

Regarding the 20mph zones
(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_km/h_zone), analogous to other
countries where they exist, they would be tagged as maxspeed:type=GB:zone20.

On 30/04/2018 20:57, Philip Barnes wrote:
> Whilst in theory there is an implicit 30mph when street lights are
> present and there are no repeater signs indicating a higher limit then
> the speed limit is 30 mph. It has nothing to do with urban, the same
> rule will apply on lit rural roads. These days it is complicated by
> 20mph limits which also have no repeaters.
> 
> That is the theory, however in over 40 years of driving and even longer
> cycling I have never come across an unsigned 30mph limit. It is always
> signed as you enter the zone. Whilst it's useful for confirmation whilst
> driving, it is not really useful for mapping, you need to survey the
> start points so that it can be split at the appropriate points.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> 
> On 30 April 2018 18:41:26 BST, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
> 
> Hi there
> 
> On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki lists
> the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type":
> 
> GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway (=70 mph)
> 
> I understand that the current legislation defines a road with
> road-lighting as a built-up area in which a lower implicit speed limit
> of 30 mph applies. There is no mention of it in the wiki, no GB:urban,
> GB:lit, GB:zone30 or anything like that, so something should be defined
> and documented by (you,) the British OSM community.
> 
> My question:
> How to tag roads in which such an implicit speed limit for built-up
> areas applies?
> 
> The question is motivated by an issue report for StreetComplete [2]
> 
> Cheers
> Tobias
> 
> [1]
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table
> 
> [2] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/1037
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[David Woolley]

On 30/04/18 18:41, Tobias Zwick wrote:

On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki lists
the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type":

GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway (=70 mph)


Aren't we missing a couple of points here?

These speed limits encode vectors, not scalars.  As I recall the speed 
limit is dependent on the type of vehicle.  E.g. buses and HGVs are 
limited to 60 on motorways and dual carriageways: 
.  In particular, the signed limit is 
often only the highest of the limits.


The other thing about these codes, is that they allow all limits to 
change quickly if legislations changes.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Rob Nickerson]

> so something should be defined and documented

I agree with my fellow mappers. There is no need to add this to the UK
tagging guideline.

> motorways indicated by the international chop sticks sign

That is brilliant. I have to find a way to use that expression somewhere :-)

P.S. I wish other countries would put more speed signs up. Or at least the
car rental should tell you to pay extra attention for the town name signs
as these indicate a lower speed limit. Was nearly caught out by a speed
camera on one of these! My eyes are just not trained to look for the town
name signs.

Regards,
*Rob*
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Philip Barnes]

By not implicitly signed I mean there is no number on a NSL sign, the limit 
changes between 60/70 when roads change between single and dual carriageways 
and there is no explicit 70 sign on motorways.

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 30 April 2018 20:31:11 BST, Adam Snape  wrote:
>I'm not sure I'd call any of the national speed limits implicit. All
>are
>explicit in that they are (or should be) physically signed at least
>where
>the limit changes, so they are verifiable rather than merely implied.
>The
>only practical difference is whether small repeater signs are required
>to
>remind drivers of the speed limit and (as Phil says) in these days
>zonal
>20mph limits can sometimes be implemented without repeater signs.
>
>Adam
>
>On 30 April 2018 at 20:05, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
>> For practical purposes the only non-implicitly signed speed limits
>are
>> national speed limits, (start indicated by black diagonal on white)
>and
>> motorways indicated by the international chop sticks sign.
>>
>> Phil (trigpoint)
>>
>> On 30 April 2018 19:54:37 BST, Tobias Zwick 
>wrote:
>>
>>> I apologize for the misunderstanding, this is about implicit speed
>>> limits when there is *no sign* that ordains another speed limit, of
>course.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Tobias
>>>
>>> On 30/04/2018 20:50, Brian Prangle wrote:
>>>
  You can't make that assumption of an implicit 30mph limit. Major
>roads
  in in built up areas can be 40 mph and increasingly speed limits
>are
  being reduced to 20mph in built up areas

  Regards

  Brian

  On 30 April 2018 at 18:41, Tobias Zwick > wrote:

  Hi there

  On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the
>wiki lists
  the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type":

  GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway
>(=70 mph)

  I understand that the current legislation defines a road with
  road-lighting as a built-up area in which a lower implicit
>speed limit
  of 30 mph applies. There is no mention of it in the wiki, no
>GB:urban,
  GB:lit, GB:zone30 or anything like that, so something should
>be defined
  and documented by (you,) the British OSM community.

  My question:
  How to tag roads in which such an implicit speed limit for
>built-up
  areas applies?

  The question is motivated by an issue report for
>StreetComplete [2]

  Cheers
  Tobias

  [1]
 
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table
 
>

  [2] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/1037
  

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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Adam Snape]

Also, I don't think we need a special tagging scheme just because each
individual road is not signed. We don't do so for analogous restrictions
such weight, width or access restrictions which are generally only signed
when entering or leaving the zone where the restriction applies.

Adam

On 30 April 2018 at 20:31, Adam Snape  wrote:

> I'm not sure I'd call any of the national speed limits implicit. All are
> explicit in that they are (or should be) physically signed at least where
> the limit changes, so they are verifiable rather than merely implied. The
> only practical difference is whether small repeater signs are required to
> remind drivers of the speed limit and (as Phil says) in these days zonal
> 20mph limits can sometimes be implemented without repeater signs.
>
> Adam
>
> On 30 April 2018 at 20:05, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
>> For practical purposes the only non-implicitly signed speed limits are
>> national speed limits, (start indicated by black diagonal on white) and
>> motorways indicated by the international chop sticks sign.
>>
>> Phil (trigpoint)
>>
>> On 30 April 2018 19:54:37 BST, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
>>
>>> I apologize for the misunderstanding, this is about implicit speed
>>> limits when there is *no sign* that ordains another speed limit, of course.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Tobias
>>>
>>> On 30/04/2018 20:50, Brian Prangle wrote:
>>>
  You can't make that assumption of an implicit 30mph limit. Major roads
  in in built up areas can be 40 mph and increasingly speed limits are
  being reduced to 20mph in built up areas

  Regards

  Brian

  On 30 April 2018 at 18:41, Tobias Zwick > wrote:

  Hi there

  On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki lists
  the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type":

  GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway (=70 
 mph)

  I understand that the current legislation defines a road with
  road-lighting as a built-up area in which a lower implicit speed limit
  of 30 mph applies. There is no mention of it in the wiki, no GB:urban,
  GB:lit, GB:zone30 or anything like that, so something should be 
 defined
  and documented by (you,) the British OSM community.

  My question:
  How to tag roads in which such an implicit speed limit for built-up
  areas applies?

  The question is motivated by an issue report for StreetComplete [2]

  Cheers
  Tobias

  [1]
  
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table
  
 

  [2] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/1037
  

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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Adam Snape]

I'm not sure I'd call any of the national speed limits implicit. All are
explicit in that they are (or should be) physically signed at least where
the limit changes, so they are verifiable rather than merely implied. The
only practical difference is whether small repeater signs are required to
remind drivers of the speed limit and (as Phil says) in these days zonal
20mph limits can sometimes be implemented without repeater signs.

Adam

On 30 April 2018 at 20:05, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> For practical purposes the only non-implicitly signed speed limits are
> national speed limits, (start indicated by black diagonal on white) and
> motorways indicated by the international chop sticks sign.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
> On 30 April 2018 19:54:37 BST, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
>
>> I apologize for the misunderstanding, this is about implicit speed
>> limits when there is *no sign* that ordains another speed limit, of course.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Tobias
>>
>> On 30/04/2018 20:50, Brian Prangle wrote:
>>
>>>  You can't make that assumption of an implicit 30mph limit. Major roads
>>>  in in built up areas can be 40 mph and increasingly speed limits are
>>>  being reduced to 20mph in built up areas
>>>
>>>  Regards
>>>
>>>  Brian
>>>
>>>  On 30 April 2018 at 18:41, Tobias Zwick >>  > wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hi there
>>>
>>>  On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki lists
>>>  the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type":
>>>
>>>  GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway (=70 
>>> mph)
>>>
>>>  I understand that the current legislation defines a road with
>>>  road-lighting as a built-up area in which a lower implicit speed limit
>>>  of 30 mph applies. There is no mention of it in the wiki, no GB:urban,
>>>  GB:lit, GB:zone30 or anything like that, so something should be defined
>>>  and documented by (you,) the British OSM community.
>>>
>>>  My question:
>>>  How to tag roads in which such an implicit speed limit for built-up
>>>  areas applies?
>>>
>>>  The question is motivated by an issue report for StreetComplete [2]
>>>
>>>  Cheers
>>>  Tobias
>>>
>>>  [1]
>>>  
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table
>>>  
>>> 
>>>
>>>  [2] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/1037
>>>  
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>  Talk-GB mailing list
>>>  Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org 
>>>  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Philip Barnes]

For practical purposes the only non-implicitly signed speed limits are national 
speed limits, (start indicated by black diagonal on white) and motorways 
indicated by the international chop sticks sign.

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 30 April 2018 19:54:37 BST, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
>I apologize for the misunderstanding, this is about implicit speed
>limits when there is *no sign* that ordains another speed limit, of
>course.
>
>Cheers
>Tobias
>
>On 30/04/2018 20:50, Brian Prangle wrote:
>> You can't make that assumption of an implicit 30mph limit. Major
>roads
>> in in built up areas can be 40 mph and increasingly speed limits are
>> being reduced to 20mph in built up areas
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>> On 30 April 2018 at 18:41, Tobias Zwick > > wrote:
>> 
>> Hi there
>> 
>> On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki
>lists
>> the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type":
>> 
>> GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway
>(=70 mph)
>> 
>> I understand that the current legislation defines a road with
>> road-lighting as a built-up area in which a lower implicit speed
>limit
>> of 30 mph applies. There is no mention of it in the wiki, no
>GB:urban,
>> GB:lit, GB:zone30 or anything like that, so something should be
>defined
>> and documented by (you,) the British OSM community.
>> 
>> My question:
>> How to tag roads in which such an implicit speed limit for
>built-up
>> areas applies?
>> 
>> The question is motivated by an issue report for StreetComplete
>[2]
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Tobias
>> 
>> [1]
>>
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table
>>
>
>> 
>> [2] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/1037
>> 
>> 
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>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Philip Barnes]

Whilst in theory there is an implicit 30mph when street lights are present and 
there are no repeater signs indicating a higher limit then the speed limit is 
30 mph. It has nothing to do with urban, the same rule will apply on lit rural 
roads. These days it is complicated by 20mph limits which also have no 
repeaters.

That is the theory, however in over 40 years of driving and even longer cycling 
I have never come across an unsigned 30mph limit. It is always signed as you 
enter the zone. Whilst it's useful for confirmation whilst driving, it is not 
really useful for mapping, you need to survey the start points so that it can 
be split at the appropriate points. 

Phil (trigpoint) 


On 30 April 2018 18:41:26 BST, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
>Hi there
>
>On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki lists
>the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type":
>
>GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway (=70
>mph)
>
>I understand that the current legislation defines a road with
>road-lighting as a built-up area in which a lower implicit speed limit
>of 30 mph applies. There is no mention of it in the wiki, no GB:urban,
>GB:lit, GB:zone30 or anything like that, so something should be defined
>and documented by (you,) the British OSM community.
>
>My question:
>How to tag roads in which such an implicit speed limit for built-up
>areas applies?
>
>The question is motivated by an issue report for StreetComplete [2]
>
>Cheers
>Tobias
>
>[1]
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table
>
>[2] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/1037
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Tobias Zwick]

I apologize for the misunderstanding, this is about implicit speed
limits when there is *no sign* that ordains another speed limit, of course.

Cheers
Tobias

On 30/04/2018 20:50, Brian Prangle wrote:
> You can't make that assumption of an implicit 30mph limit. Major roads
> in in built up areas can be 40 mph and increasingly speed limits are
> being reduced to 20mph in built up areas
> 
> Regards
> 
> Brian
> 
> On 30 April 2018 at 18:41, Tobias Zwick  > wrote:
> 
> Hi there
> 
> On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki lists
> the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type":
> 
> GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway (=70 mph)
> 
> I understand that the current legislation defines a road with
> road-lighting as a built-up area in which a lower implicit speed limit
> of 30 mph applies. There is no mention of it in the wiki, no GB:urban,
> GB:lit, GB:zone30 or anything like that, so something should be defined
> and documented by (you,) the British OSM community.
> 
> My question:
> How to tag roads in which such an implicit speed limit for built-up
> areas applies?
> 
> The question is motivated by an issue report for StreetComplete [2]
> 
> Cheers
> Tobias
> 
> [1]
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table
> 
> 
> 
> [2] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/1037
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Brian Prangle]

You can't make that assumption of an implicit 30mph limit. Major roads in
in built up areas can be 40 mph and increasingly speed limits are being
reduced to 20mph in built up areas

Regards

Brian

On 30 April 2018 at 18:41, Tobias Zwick  wrote:

> Hi there
>
> On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki lists
> the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type":
>
> GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway (=70 mph)
>
> I understand that the current legislation defines a road with
> road-lighting as a built-up area in which a lower implicit speed limit
> of 30 mph applies. There is no mention of it in the wiki, no GB:urban,
> GB:lit, GB:zone30 or anything like that, so something should be defined
> and documented by (you,) the British OSM community.
>
> My question:
> How to tag roads in which such an implicit speed limit for built-up
> areas applies?
>
> The question is motivated by an issue report for StreetComplete [2]
>
> Cheers
> Tobias
>
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_
> code.2Fcategory_conversion_table
>
> [2] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/1037
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

[Colin Smale]

The UK definition of a "built-up area" for traffic purposes is still
occasionally subject to discussions [1] 

In 99.9% of the cases the speed limit will be signed explicitly anyway. 

--colin

[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Built-up_area_(Highway_Code)#Legal_definition


On 2018-04-30 19:41, Tobias Zwick wrote:

> Hi there
> 
> On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki lists
> the following values [1 [1]] for "maxspeed:type":
> 
> GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway (=70 mph)
> 
> I understand that the current legislation defines a road with
> road-lighting as a built-up area in which a lower implicit speed limit
> of 30 mph applies. There is no mention of it in the wiki, no GB:urban,
> GB:lit, GB:zone30 or anything like that, so something should be defined
> and documented by (you,) the British OSM community.
> 
> My question:
> How to tag roads in which such an implicit speed limit for built-up
> areas applies?
> 
> The question is motivated by an issue report for StreetComplete [2 [2]]
> 
> Cheers
> Tobias
> 
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits#Country_code.2Fcategory_conversion_table
> 
> [2] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/1037
> 
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Links:
--
[1]
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