Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS
Ben, On 23/04/2024 05:22, Ben Ritter wrote: Our solution involves extra work to accommodate the atypical workflow of NPWS deleting paths as a means of communicating their updated access rights. You're very generous towards NPWS with your wording here; some might call that "atypical workflow" vandalism ;) I'm all for reaching a solution that works for both parties but it is worth noting that NPWS agents deleting valid data are in violation of OSM's terms. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [OSM-talk] Speedflying lines on OSM
Hi, On 4/14/24 07:31, Pesho Ivanov wrote: 3) speedflying lines are always observable from the ground and it can be improved by mappers Can you elaborate on that? How can I go to a place and see "ah, obviously there's a speedflying line here"? And if two speedflyers disagree over whether the "correct" line is 20 metres to the west or 20 metres to the east, how can they meet at the location and settle their dispute by looking at the ground? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [talk-au] Mass Edit Proposal - South Australia's Arterial Traffic Network
Hi, On 3/3/24 09:13, Daniel O'Connor wrote: Can't be stuffed registering to add comments on that thread. Please do. Mailing lists are on their way out (speaking as an over 50 year old person who was using mailing lists before the web even existed). The community forum doesn't require a separate registration - your OSM account is sufficient. It's no good for us mailing list users to grumble over here while people on the community forum might get the impression that the proposal is a great idea. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS
Hi, On 29/02/2024 12:56, Andrew Welch via Talk-au wrote: Part of the reason why we want them to map the way we map is because it shows clearly that while there is a path there, it is informal (so downstream users shouldn't treat it as a path) and usually considered private property (again, so downstream users shouldn't use it as a path). Tagging it that way also stops someone mapping from aerial imagery, previous GPS tracks, and other sources, from going and adding it back in. Further reasons for mapping informal paths: 1. Orientation. Imagine you have memorized the map, and you know that after the bend you are to take the first path to the right. Now, if the "first path to the right" that you encounter is an informal one that has been deleted from the map, you might accidentally walk that path rather than the one you intended to take. 2. Search and rescue. If someone is lost somewhere, then informal paths would certainly be a good starting point to go looking for them - provided you know where these informal paths are. 3. Emergency. In an emergency situation it can be important to know about a path even if you're not allowed to use it. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS
Hi, On 29/02/2024 11:20, Adam Steer wrote: Wait ... does the OSM community seriously want to call public land managers vandals for attempting to manage access to parts of public land effectively? You're right that in the strict sense of the word you'd only use it for someone who damages OSM without gaining anything themselves. But deleting tracks that exist on the ground clearly *is* damaging OSM, so if you want to avoid the "v-word" then at the very least you should say: These people are willfully damaging OSM in pursuing their own goals. And if you repeatedly damage OSM, then we'll kick you out. No matter if you're Joe Random, or the Emperor of China. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS
I haven't followed this thread and I don't know if this is relevant to the discussion but I have just reverted the deletion of a bunch of paths in Tweed Shire, NSW here https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147956474 - the deleter claims to have ties to NPS. -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [OSM-talk] GeoJSON download: region, resolution
Hi, use naturalearthdata.com instead of OSM, it has simplified data and comes in shape files. Bye Frederik On 1/18/24 09:27, Martin Trautmann via talk wrote: Hi all, is there any service that might help me to download a proper subset of data, providing some setup for filters and precision / resolution / interpolation What I actually need is * borders / coastline of middle europe * borders of german federal states (Bundesländer) * major cities (above 100 000 inhabitants) within Germany ... with a more or less rough resolution and max 2 MB file size https://download.geofabrik.de/europe/germany.html is 4 GB and offers slightly more details than expected. Bonus would be some major topography, such as larger rivers TIA Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Setting Up a New Mailing List for Montenegro
Hi, On 17.11.23 12:55, Rinat Sabitov wrote: Hi all, I have never been able to find instructions on how to create another mailing list. I want to create `talk-mne` for Montenegro. Where do I go? Unless you have an explicit need for a mailing list, I would suggest to start a sub forum on community.openstreetmap.org instead. See here https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/about-the-communities-category/80 for information on how to request a forum there. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war
Hi, aside from these apparently being undocumented bot edits, I'm also somewhat skeptical of their "healthcare:speciality" tag. It sounds terribly like advertising. It essentially covers everything you would expect a dentist to do - so why is healthcare=dentist not sufficient? Bye Frederik On 15.09.23 11:43, Paul Norman wrote: They have edited it back with https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141281494. I've left a changeset discussion comment asking why, and asking for a link to the required documentation and consultation. On 2023-09-14 12:36 a.m., Cj Malone wrote: On Tue, 2023-09-12 at 15:06 +0200, Snusmumriken via talk wrote: My speculation is that Distriktstandvården (a chain of dental clinics) has taken "ownership" of "their" nodes and once a day check that the values in osm database correspond to that of their internal database. I've added a more specific website tag to test this. If they restore it (Probably 03:00) to the generic home page I agree with you. They need to be informed that 1) there data needs improving (eg covid opening hours, POI specific not brand specific contact details) 2) they don't own these nodes, other people can edit them. CJ https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141243391 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing State of the Map 2024: Join us in Nairobi and online on 6-8 September 2024!
Hi, On 17.08.23 09:59, Paul Norman wrote: Government travel advisories state LGTBQ people are routinely harassed by the police. If this happens at the conference, how would you enforce the Code of Conduct which prohibits LGTBQ harassment? I don't think it is reasonable to expect the code of conduct to hold against forceful outside influence - be that a group of armed thugs crashing your conference, or a group of policemen come to make trouble, or the businessperson making a sexist remark at the hotel breakfast buffet. The code of conduct is meant to codify how we as a community want to treat each other. It doesn't magically wrap people into a bubble in which nothing bad can ever happen - not in Nairobi, not in Brussels, not in New York. No code of conduct does that, nowhere. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing State of the Map 2024: Join us in Nairobi and online on 6-8 September 2024!
Hi, On 8/16/23 20:01, John Whelan wrote: If it was in the EU or the USA a higher proportion of members would not need a passport or visa. ... but almost all visitors from Africa would, and more importantly, many would have a very hard time obtaining it. Whereas the average "westerner" wanting to go to Nairobi simply fills out an online form and gets their visa within a couple of days. For future SotMs I might suggest starting with accommodation, many universities have halls of residence available during the summer months. These are good ideas but remember that SotM is not centrally organised. The SotM team puts out a call for location, and local groups can then apply. An application from a local group who have thought about these things, and who say "we've talked to our local university and there's affordable accommodation there" will certainly be looked upon favourably, but that's about all - the OSMF SotM team will not scout the world for locations with affordable accommodation, simple visa rules and cheap travel, all they can do is evaluate the bids that have been submitted. Ottawa for example has halls with double beds and ensuites plus there are lecture halls etc available. Meal plans can be purchased which means that you're eating in the cafeterias true but many conversations at SotM will take place outside the conference rooms and over a meal is a useful place to talk. I would love to go to a SotM in Canada, however there has only ever been one bid from a Canadian team and that was withdrawn over the announcement of SotM US being at the UN in New York that year! If you can get a few Canadians to submit a bid for a SotM in one of the coming years, I'm sure that would be very attractive. The EU might be easier than the UK since britexit the UK is no longer a free travel zone for EU citizens and the EU has trains which means a lower average carbon footprint per attendee. The OSMF has been criticized for having run the last three in-person SotM conferences in Europe (two in Italy, one in Germany) so you can't blame them for looking elsewhere! Which doesn't rule out future European SotMs - after all, that's the continent where OSM was invented - but it's certainly good to go elsewhere once in a while, even if that is outside of the comfort zone for the average European or American traveller. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM
Hi, from your answers I gather that you're approaching this with a certain amount of youthful enthusiasm that could lead to problems. It is good that you're discussing your plans so we can iron them out before you actually do anything. On 08.08.23 20:19, Harsha Somaya wrote: 4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees-- code makes sure that no two trees at the same GPS can be added You will have to make sure that the tree to be added is not already in OSM. I do not think that the GPS position alone is good enough to add a tree; it is very likely that if you do that, you will add trees in buildings and in the middle of roads. I think that it will be necessary for the user, when they take the photo of the tree, to also manually move a marker on the map to the correct location. Doing this, if the map is OSM, will put your location data under ODbL. 5) which tags will be used-- species, genus, maybe height, image of tree, maybe wikipedia tree about species, tree type (broadleaf versus not) Are species and genus user-specified or will you be trying to determine those automatically from the photo? If the latter, I would advise against. How do you intend to upload the "image of tree" to OSM? Best Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk-fr] public transport edit war in the Nice area
Hello talk-fr, the DWG has become aware of an edit war between users Patchi and Snusmumriken in the area of Nice. Snusmumriken seems to be applying what he believes to be standard public transport tagging, which Patchi then reverts. Here is one node which Patchi insists to be "highway=platform" and Snusmumriken wants "highway=bus_stop": https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/277447606/history Here is one node where Snusmumriken deletes "highway=bus_stop" and Patchi re-adds it: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/21917308/history It appears that neither of them are actually talking *to* each other, instead they just "fix" or "restore" things the other has "broken" and this has been going on for a while. It would be great if other mappers in the area could chime in. I will also message both separately and invite them to participate in this discussion. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk] Survey about OSM communication behaviors
Hi, On 5/2/23 00:10, Courtney wrote: I believe that my team's research project Can you clarify who "your team" in this context is? You were introduced in Marjan's initial post as "OSMF Communication Working Group Member" and were the only of four names without a TomTom affiliation. You are posting this neither from an OSMF nor from a TomTom address but from a gmail one. Is "your team" a corporate TomTom endeavour? Is it the OSMF Communications working group? Or...? Unclear affiliations are a problem, as I pointed out in this thread a few days ago. Has everything I said been filed away under "pushback" and ignored? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Survey about OSM communication behaviors
Now that we seem to have established that this was not a CWG thing to start with, could everyone who was involved in creating this announcement please review their communication behaviour, *especially* when it comes to signing messages as "so-and-so, OSMF communications working group" when you're not writing in an official capacity. This is something that other working groups as well as the OSMF board have been practicing carefully for ages and I'd hope that it would not be beyond members of a communications working group to be precise in their communication. On 4/28/23 15:29, Marjan Van de Kauter wrote: Hi everyone, We are doing a research project on how OpenStreetMap users interact with each other. Are you willing to help us learn more about communication behaviors in OSM? Take this quick and anonymous survey and tell us if and how you use the OSM community forum, mailing lists, social media and other channels: https://forms.gle/UeAGs3VahuxBN7Ec7 <https://forms.gle/UeAGs3VahuxBN7Ec7> We will share the results of this survey, along with other data, with the community. This can help users better understand communication habits in OSM, so they can identify the most effective ways to reach other community members. We will be presenting our findings at State of the Map US in Richmond, Virginia and in diary entries. So stay tuned for more and thank you for participating in our survey. Have a great weekend! Marjan Van de Kauter (OSMF Communication Working Group member and TomTom community engager) Courtney Williamson (OSMF Communication Working Group member) Keara Dennehy (TomTom business analyst) L.J. Lambert (TomTom business analyst) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Survey about OSM communication behaviors
Hi, On 4/28/23 15:57, Marc_marc wrote: I am impressed (and disappointed) that those who do these surveys have still not learned that part of the active opendata community does not wish to ally a closeddata based enterprise (nominally: no use of google forms for some of us). Agree. It's one thing for an OSMF working group to use a closed source/siloed product internally, but quite another to attempt to engage with the community via such a product. I am not surprised when a commercial company like Tom Tom does that without a second thought, but I would expect more from an OSMF working group. Please find a way for non-Google users to participate in this survey, or your results will be biased to the point of un-suitability because they will lack responses from people who'd rather not engage with Google, i.e. the whole "communication behaviours" of this group of people would not be represented. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [talk-au] Why set coast line to nation park or administrative boundaries?
Hi, I would advise caution with this. Government bodies will typically hold their own GIS data for park boundaries or administrative boundaries, and the GIS data they have will never fully align with the coastline. However, it is not our job to be an agent for publishing government data. We have to look further and ask for the actual situation. If the national park boundary is mostly along the coastline but there's a tiny patch of sand where the coastline has changed but the public data has not - does that really mean that this little patch is not part of the national park (and I could go there and, whatever, light a fire or something I'm not allowed to do in the national park)? OpenStreetMap becomes more complex the more different boundaries we track. Having a coastline with an administrative boundary that runs "almost" along the coast but is always a meter off, and then having in addition to that a national park boundary that is also "almost" the same but not quite - we should only do that if it is an important feature. "Hey, everyone knows that along the coast of XY there's this one meter wide stretch that is not officially part of the XY city so the city rule about nude bathing doesn't apply there" or whatever, that might be a reason to carefully map the difference - but if the difference is not "on purpose" but just an imprecision that the city and national park administration were likely to fix if they had the technical means then I would not try to map these boundaries separate from the coastline. Especially since they will certainly not be verifiable on the ground... Bye Frederik On 28.03.23 11:33, cleary wrote: Warin's proposal, that natural features be separated from administrative boundaries, is strongly supported. Boundaries are often near natural features but they rarely align precisely. Further, natural features such as coastline and waterways can change surprisingly quickly while administrative boundaries change much less often. On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, at 10:58 AM, Warin wrote: Hi Looks like some are setting natural features to government boundaries. A recent case along the WA south coast has been going on for some years.. The coast line looks very confused and the National Park boundaries are being changed to the coast line in reverse of what is stated on the change sets... (bangs head on wall). I was altered to it by OSMInspector identifying the National Park boundary being broken by the 'adjustment' of the 'coastline' ... that broke the National Park boundary... The National Park boundary looks, in some places, to be the low tide mark and then in other places to be the hi tide mark, so it is not consistent. I do understand where the two (natural feature and government boundary) coincide that it is easier to use the same way. But every now and then someone moves it to conform to the latest imagery of the natural feature .. thus moving the government boundary .. unintended but there we go. My only solution si to have them as separate ways .. making it easier to divorce the new nodes added for the new nature feature addition from the old government boundary. Any other ideas??? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [OSM-talk] Duplicate Buildings
Hi, I think an automatic fix of the problem is possible, however it would be a good idea to try and find out what the root cause of the problem is - bad software, bad imports, bad instructions? To get an idea of how big the issue is, I did this on a standard rendering database: create table buildings as (select way,osm_id from planet_osm_polygon where building is not null) select a.osm_id, b.osm_id into duplicates from buildings a, buildings b where a.osm_id < b.osm_id and a.way ~= b.way and st_equals(a.way,b.way); This took a few days - probably it could have been done more efficiently - and resulted in a list of about 70k buldings world-wide that are exact duplicates (geoetry-wise) of other buildings. The list is here: http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/duplicatebuildings.csv Some buildings are in OSM three or four times (contained i nthe above in the form of "a is duplicate of b, b is duplicate of c") but I've extracted them in extra files: http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/triplcatebuildings.csv and http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/quadruplicatebuildings.csv) I don't have the time to analyse the situation in more detail at present so if anyone wants to take the above lists as a basis for deeper analysis... Cheers Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extending the 'geo:' uri scheme: Adding parameter 'osmid'
Hi, On 06.01.23 11:50, Sören Reinecke wrote: Right, I know that OSM ids are not stable. The same applies to coordinates too. If a restaurant puts a 'geo' link on their online pdf menu card with the coordinates to their shop then this is in the same manner unstable as osm id. No. The restaurant has full control over if and when they move. But they have no control over if and when their OSM ID changes. This can happen at any time, without even the knowledge of the restaurant, and is therefore not comparable to the restaurant moving to another location. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extending the 'geo:' uri scheme: Adding parameter 'osmid'
Hi, On 02.01.23 21:59, Andy Townsend wrote: It's certainly possible (as I've said in that discussion) to use OSM IDs as "stable enough to do real work with" - I do it all the time. But establishing a "standard" to do it would likely exert pressure on mappers not to do anything that would change an ID (I am imagining pink warning boxes on the wiki explaining that you should avoid this or that because it will cause lots of dangling links from the outside into OSM). You're currently doing at your own risk and if it doesn't work then you have no right to complain. Once we encourage people to create such links from outside applications that are unknown (and might be inaccessible) to us, these people will complain when links break. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extending the 'geo:' uri scheme: Adding parameter 'osmid'
Hi,
On 1/2/23 18:57, Sören Reinecke wrote:
As OpenStreetMap is
playing an important part in the geospatial world, the OSMF should try
to get IETF convinced.
Until now we've concentrated on making a good map, rather than
convincing others that our map is good ;)
I think that linking to OSM objects by ID is only relevant in the
immediate and time-limited QA or debugging context ("does anyone else
think way 1234 has a problem here") because our IDs are not stable;
linking to an OSM object by ID and expecting the ID to remain constant
is asking for trouble.
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
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Re: [OSM-talk] razed railways and other things that don't exist today
Hi, On 10/25/22 19:18, Brian M. Sperlongano wrote: In my experience, it is more often the opposite situation that happens. A mapper, unaware of the lengthy debates on the topic of former railroads, is mapping her house and removes the bit of abandoned rail currently on the map in that spot, assuming it is a data error or poor import. After all. she's quite aware that there is a house and not a railway at that location as she has personally surveyed it. Sometime later, an abandoned railway enthusiast comes along and angrily harasses the mapper for removing the bit of railway that quite rightly isn't there. In that situation, I would clearly support the mapper who has deleted the railroad. (In discussions with abandoned-railway-enthusiasts, you will often get to hear that there are remnants of a railway line that betray the former existence of it to an educated observer. If a new housing development has been built where once there was a railway, then this is obviously not a valid line of argument.) It's been my experience that allowing enthusiasts to map phantom railways causes far more grief and contention between mappers than simply drawing a line and saying "we don't map things that aren't there." I agree with that - especially as OSM is very prone to "whataboutism", and before you know it there will be a discussion somewhere about mapping some other long-gone stuff and people will say "but you allow the railways" Still I would recommend against, and also word any wiki articles to avoid, someone starting a crusade to get rid of abandoned railways. Delete the ones you encounter while mapping and which you don't see traces of - totally fine. Run an overpass query to find them all and delete them - just causes unnecessary strife. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] razed railways and other things that don't exist today
Hi, you are correct in all aspects, however in the spirit of friendly collaboration I would say that a limited amount of stuff-that-should-not-be-in-OSM can be *tolerated*. If someone does a lot of good work for OSM otherwise and would really like to record an ancient former railroad that ran through where their house now sits - I shrug and let them do it. Only if someone starts to make it their mission to map every ancient railroad in the country and/or create relations so that you can see where trains used to ride in 1848 is when I'll ask them to stop and find a better place for it. In a non-railway context, the various "this does not exist any more" prefixes can have value if the object in question is still visible on aerial imagery - otherwise, if you simply delete the thing from OSM, someone else will draw it back in. The wiki should definitely say that all these tags are meant for special situations and the existence of these tags is not a reason/excuse to map every vanished object there is. I would stress "not adding more of this" over "removing the stuff that already is in OSM" though. I don't want a horde of self-appointed cleaners running through OSM "because the wiki says so". Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Hi, On 30.09.22 14:32, Andy Mabbett wrote: As you are well aware, I have been strongly and consistently against this asinine idea since it was first proposed; I don't have the energy to repeat myself in every new forum where you repeat it. Just because "asinine" is a fancy word it is no less insulting. Please remain civil even if people don't share your Wikidata enthusiasm. Throwing around a few insults may require less energy than making an argument but it doesn't help. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Hi, On 30.09.22 13:36, Frederik Ramm wrote: You can't have people vote on one thing and then do something else. It occurs to me that this is what usually happens in politics. Still, we should aim to be better ;) -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Hi, On 30.09.22 12:59, Marc_marc wrote: do we really want the community to waste its time remaking a wikidata-osm out of ego not to use wikidata.org when it describes the same concept? I think that there is a danger of confusion here because Wikidata has its own ideas about what a tree is and they might differ from our definition, and I foresee people arguing "I am using this tag here because the Wikidata Q-whatever thing says I can". For example, on historic=monument, wikidata says in Q4989906: "imposing structure created to commemorate a person or event, or used for that purpose", whereas OSM says: "A memorial object, which is especially large (one can go inside, walk on or through it) or very tall (see the examples), built to remember, show respect to a person or group of people or to commemorate an event." These definitions are not identical and will rarely be. But having said that, I *did* think that the vote was about hiding the wikidata item from the infobox (and especially hiding the obnoxious "there's no wikidata link yet please create one") - which would have mean the removal of a couple lines of code on the infobox, instead of editing every single page with a bot. Looking back now, the vote said: "It will not lead to any data loss, but will make Wikidata link far less prominent." "Make link far less prominent" is not the same as "delete link". Therefore the bot activity has, in my opinion, no community backing and needs to be stopped and reverted. You can't have people vote on one thing and then do something else. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [talk-au] Mapping surf breaks
Hi, non-Australian and non-surfer here but please remember that stuff you map in OSM must be reasonably verifiable. If you map a great surf spot which only exists when some external conditions align, then it might be hard for others to verify (they'd have to wait for the conditions to align). As a non-surfer I would assume that "the wind and waves are just right" is something that could make a perfect surf spot nearly everywhere, and surfers would not be helped by a map showing lots of spots that might be great if "the wind and waves are just right" ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] US Trails Working Group
Hi, On 04.01.22 12:29, Warin wrote: > I have not as yet looked at hospitals, nor post offices... and I think both > of them are more useful to the map than Rural Fire Brigades. Within the envelope of stuff that is admissible to OSM, usefulness is a very subjective concept. If you are in the fire brigades, then maybe mapping a single fire hydrant is more useful to you than all of the post offices combined. It is commendable that you let your mapping be guided by trying to think about the "general usefulness for others", however this is not a necessary (nor a frequent!) trait in OSM contributors. Mapping what interests you is totally ok - and is often also the way to ensure that what is mapped is mapped well, because it is mapped by people who understand something about it! Of course this "let everyone map what they want" rule has its limits where one mapper's work starts to make life difficult for other mappers. For me, this point often comes when one mapper goes over board in creating giant relations that will slow down and confuse others (think of a newbie receiving a popup informing him that he has just edited the 5000-member relation "Outback NSW" and whether that was on purpose or so...). Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] "Removing closed or illegal trails." (in Nerang National Park)
Hi, On 29.10.21 12:33, fors...@ozonline.com.au wrote: > 1. "a park manager would prefer them not to, and therefore deletes the > track in order to keep people from exercising their rights". > > Does this happen, has it ever happened? I would be surprised if it > happened here. Anyway its not what I thought we were talking about, > illegal trails. This has definitely happened in Germany though the legal situation is not always crystal clear - in most cases, a park or forest manager would have the legal right to close something if they can show that there's imminent danger to plant or wildlife, and in practice many will be more assertive about this than the law allows (a.k.a. "there's danger to plant or wildlife because I say so"). So you'll have the local manager claim that "this is an illegal trail" and the local hikers saying "but the law says we can use the forest for recreation and your reasoning is bogus". This has led to situations where the local manager would not dare put up signs that say "path closed" because they know it would be challenged, but they subtly try to achieve the same by deleting the path from OSM. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] "Removing closed or illegal trails." (in Nerang National Park)
Hi,
On 29.10.21 09:08, fors...@ozonline.com.au wrote:
> You could map a track under the "if it exists then map it" rule but you
> don't have to. We do not map women's refuges and they exist. We don't
> have to map every informal trail.
This is true, and we shouldn't go out of our way to thwart the efforts
of park managers. Having said that,
1. Sometimes the matter can be a civil rights issue - depending on the
legal situation, people might have the *right* to use a path but a park
manager would prefer them not to, and therefore deletes the track in
order to keep people from exercising their rights. In that situation,
while the park manager might want the best for the environment, the park
manager would have to work to change the legal situation instead of
trying to mislead people about what they are allowed to do.
2. In similar discussions we had people working with search and rescue
teams say that they prefer to use OSM maps because those show the
informal trails, and if you're searching for someone who got lost,
knowing which informal trails they might have taken can be helpful -
might even save lives.
3. If you have an emergency out in the wild, knowledge about informal or
even prohibited/closed tracks can be helpful and again, might even save
lives.
4. If you are navigating without a GPS, you might use trails for
orientation ("take the second left after entering the forest" or
whatever). In these cases if there's a trail that exists and is visible
but is not shown on the map, you will mis-count.
Therefore I would like to agree with Paul and Thorsten, and stress that
we should (a) map access tags properly, and (b) lobby web sites and apps
using OSM data to properly process these access tags, by not including
access-restricted trails in routing or route suggestions, and by clearly
marking these restrictions on maps.
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
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Re: [talk-au] Russian Town Names?
Hi, we had a case in Europe where tons of more or less invented (auto-generated) Russian names were added by a Russian who was playing a computer game that was using OSM maps and they wanted a nicer map display ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Can anyone make sense of this?
Hi, On 30.07.21 01:43, Little Maps wrote: > If the edits are accurate, legally acquired, ethical and respectfully > build upon the work of previous mappers then, imo, so be it. “Necessary” > vs “unnecessary” has never been a criteria for inclusion in OSM. It has, and it should. Anything added to OSM makes editing more complicated for mappers to come - *especially* when it's relations that always have the potential to trip up the newbie mapper. Something that is completely unnecessary reduces the ease of editing of our map while adding no value to compensate for that. It makes it harder for us to achieve what we want - a map editable by anyone. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Vic ptv.vic.gov.au data now being used
Hi, I did actually send them a blocking message on that day, https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/5219 requesting to reply to the many questions that had been raised http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=12556129 They cleared the block and continued unfazed. Has anyone been in touch with them? If not, it might be time to revert anything coming from questionable sources, and block them until they reply that they're human... Bye Frederik On 7/12/21 04:54, Andrew Harvey wrote: I sent them a private message, I'll wait to see if they reply to that first, because their last edit was still yesterday. If not then I will set a block to force them to read the message. -- on behalf of DWG On Mon, 12 Jul 2021 at 12:02, Phil Wyatt <mailto:p...@wyatt-family.com>> wrote: Maybe its time for a DWG suspension till there is a response __ __ Cheers - Phil __ __ *From:*Adam Horan mailto:aho...@gmail.com>> *Sent:* Monday, 12 July 2021 11:37 AM *To:* talk-au mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org>> *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] Vic ptv.vic.gov.au <http://ptv.vic.gov.au> data now being used __ __ The same mapper is also adding peak names and specific elevations with no clear source specified. __ __ eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8909657880 <https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8909657880> Potter Hill https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8909657882 <https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8909657882> O'Brien Hill __ __ within changeset https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/107744815 <https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/107744815> __ __ __ __ __ __ On Mon, 12 Jul 2021 at 11:02, Aaron Fang mailto:aaronshenhao2...@gmail.com>> wrote: As for the status of the waiver, I haven't got back any updates after the first reply. The last follow up I sent was at least a year or two ago, so the request might be stagnant. If anyone else would like to retry, that'd be great. __ __ On Mon, 12 Jul 2021 at 10:50 am, Andrew Harvey mailto:andrew.harv...@gmail.com>> wrote: Not that I'm aware of, and at least not per the current advice on the wiki you pointed to. __ __ CCed Aaron Fang Shenhao who sent the waiver. __ __ In the meantime I'll also follow up with the mapper. __ __ On Mon, 12 Jul 2021 at 10:34, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com <mailto:61sundow...@gmail.com>> wrote: Hi __ __ There is a mapper now using theptv.vic.gov.au <http://ptv.vic.gov.au> data set in OSM. The Oz data catalog says it is 'being considered' dated Dec 2019. Past discussion herehttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2019-September/012982.html <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2019-September/012982.html> So is this data set ok to use? Note the mapper has not responded to comments in the past so I have little hope there. https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/107769809#map=7/-36.853/143.492 <https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/107769809#map=7/-36.853/143.492> ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au> ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au> ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au> _______ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Low quality road classification contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
Hi, @Nemanja in a personal capacity, all the best for your kid! @Nemanja in a business capacity, just so that there are no misunderstandings: if there are doubts about the quality of an organised editing activity, that activity needs to pause until the doubts are resolved. Getting back to the community after investigation is fine, but the activity must not continue and potentially introduce more errors in the mean time. @AU community, If further bad data is added after a problem has been flagged, please report the participating accounts to DWG so that we can stop them. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [Talk-at] Probleme mit User / Qualitätsoffensive Salzburg usw.
Wenn im nächsten Jahr die Diskussion um Qualitätsstandards geführt wird, dann bitte ich alle Seiten, das möglichst freundlich und ohne Unterstellungen zu tun. Keiner von uns ist ein Vandale, wir wollen alle das bestmögliche OpenStreetMap. On 12/20/20 19:43, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hallo, > > ich habe den User "beautifulplaces" jetzt in > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/4634 > > eindringlich um eine Verhaltensänderung ersucht. Insbesondere: > > * keine ansatzweise kritikwürdigen Edits mehr in diesem Jahr > (Alltagsmapping in der Heimat ist ok, aber keine Qualitäsoffensiven usw.) > > * im Januar auf dieser Mailingliste Qualitätsstandard festlegen und erst > danach eventuelle umfangreichere Mappingtätigkeiten wieder aufnehmen. > > Ohne eine Übereinkunft in der österreichischen Community, was "Qualität" > ist, kann es keine "Qualitätsoffensive" geben. > > Ich wünsche allen einen friedlichen Jahreswechsel. > > Bye > Frederik > -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
[Talk-at] Probleme mit User / Qualitätsoffensive Salzburg usw.
Hallo, ich habe den User "beautifulplaces" jetzt in https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/4634 eindringlich um eine Verhaltensänderung ersucht. Insbesondere: * keine ansatzweise kritikwürdigen Edits mehr in diesem Jahr (Alltagsmapping in der Heimat ist ok, aber keine Qualitäsoffensiven usw.) * im Januar auf dieser Mailingliste Qualitätsstandard festlegen und erst danach eventuelle umfangreichere Mappingtätigkeiten wieder aufnehmen. Ohne eine Übereinkunft in der österreichischen Community, was "Qualität" ist, kann es keine "Qualitätsoffensive" geben. Ich wünsche allen einen friedlichen Jahreswechsel. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
[Talk-de] Weihnachtskarten 2020
Hallo, Weihnachten ist dieses Jahr für die meisten etwas anders als sonst, aber unverändert gibt's unsere kleine Geofabrik-Weihnachtskarten-Aktion. Wie schon im letzten Jahr bieten wir Euch hier auf der deutschen Mailingliste und im deutschen Forum an, kostenlos eine große Karte von einem Gebiet Eurer Wahl auszudrucken und Euch zu schicken. Das Angebot gilt nur bis morgen (Dienstag) mittag. Wir drucken alle Aufträge in der Reihenfolge, in der sie reinkommen, und nur so lange, bis wir am Dienstag abend nach Hause gehen. Da bringen wir dann auch gleich alles zur Post. Wenn ihr eine Karte zugeschickt haben möchtet, brauchen wir von Euch: * entweder ein fertiges PNG (bzw Link zum Download desselben) * oder einen Link zu einer Karte, die ihr auf Hartmuts MyOSMatic-Seite erstellt habt (https://print.get-map.org/) * oder die Koordinaten eines Ausschnitts (alternativ Link zu einem Rechteck auf tools.geofabrik.de/calc), dann erzeugen wir ein Bild im Standard-Carto-Stil oder um deutschen OSM-Stil und außerdem * das Papierformat - wenn nicht anders angegeben, drucken wir "Super A0" mit 15035x10559 Pixel, ca 1,30x0,90m * die Adresse, wo es hingehen soll. Wir verschicken nur an deutsche Adressen, sonst wird der Spaß zu teuer! Das ganze per Email an weihnachtsdr...@geofabrik.de Wir drucken die Karte, falten sie, und verschicken sie in einem Umschlag im Format B4. Wir übernehmen alle Kosten, auch das Porto. Die Aktion ist als Dankeschön für die unermüdliche Arbeit der Mapperinnen und Mapper in OSM gedacht. Bitte verzichtet darauf, das ganze in sozialen Medien weiterzuverbreiten - bis sich das rumspricht, ist die Warteschlange eh voll, und es gibt nur lange Gesichter. Bye Frederik PS: Wer die Karte gern gerollt und nicht gefaltet haben will ODER wer einen Versand ins Ausland wünscht: Das geht auch, aber dann müsst ihr uns eine entsprechende Post-Briefmarke (für gefalteten Versand ins Ausland) oder DHL-Paketmarke "Paket bis 5kg" (für den aufgerollten Versand in einer quaderförmigen Schachtel - die Größenbeschränkungen beim "2kg"-Paket sind zu knapp) als PDF generieren und zuschicken. -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-GB] Newbie damage alert in West Midlands and London
Hi, On 12/11/20 21:25, Steve Brook via Talk-GB wrote: > This user has just deleted Broadcasting House. > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/95699320 > Can someone block him and revert all his work. > https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/TL5100/history > Most if not all of it is vandalism. Most edits had already been reverted by others, I've cleaned up the rest, including undeletion of Broadcasting House and the Worcester AL8 boundary. I have issued a 24h block and requested more careful editing & better changeset comments. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSRM-talk] Strange results from map matching
Hi, On 13.05.20 23:14, Sasan Amini wrote: > I am relatively new in using OSRM for map matching. I got my first > results but there are two issues that I can't understand. My data has > 130 rows (points) and in return, I get 150 points! I think you are approaching this with the wrong expectation. The map matching algorithm is not one that simply moves each of your input points onto the output geometry and therefore has one output for every input. Instead, the map matching algorithm tries to answer the question: What is a valid route on the routing graph that is most likely the basis of this input GPS track? This "most likely valid route" is then returned to you. It can have more or fewer points than the input geometry; in fact matching input geometry points to certain points on the output will be very difficult! Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ OSRM-talk mailing list OSRM-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osrm-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community
@all, I've posted a user diary about this, at https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/woodpeck/diary/395065, copied below for your convenience. Sorry / Bad choice of words Posted by woodpeck on 10 December 2020 in English (English). Hi, I’ve recently got some flak about a mailing list post that I wrote opposing a candidate for the OSMF board election. I felt that this candidate and their employer, Facebook, were getting away with too many things that would be inacceptable from anyone else. Because the candidate and his employer steadfastly claim that the attribution they provide was in accordance with the license, I saw an analogy with Donald Trump claiming stuff that was obviously not true, like “I had the greatest crowd in my inauguration” or so. And getting away with it. To make this point as drastically as possible, I used a quote from Trump from before the 2016 election, the infamous “Access Hollywood Tape”. I still remember when that - deeply misogynistic - claim of getting away with sexual assault hit the press. I was sure: This man is never going to be elected; it is just not possible. I was proven wrong. That’s why the quote stuck in my head, as the eternal conundrum of why so many people can vote for a politician who says such deplorable things. (There are other examples in history books; but this one I lived through.) When I wrote the mailing list post, I felt that, in terms of the values we have as OSM, claiming that you can simply ignore our attribution requirements and hoping get away with it, was equally impossible. The echo to my mailing list post has shown me that I should have been more careful in which words I pick up and re-use. It was totally my intention to say “don’t vote for that candidate because they think they can get away with crass violations of what we think is proper”. But I now see that, by choosing these words and not, for example, the quote about Trump being able to shoot a person dead on Fifth Avenue and get away with it, I have dealt a blow to women in OpenStreetMap. Had I spoken about shooting a person, that would have been “any person” of any gender and equally bad for everyone; but my choice of words singled out women and contained a drastic picture of sexual assault, something that far too many women have been subjected to, or at least know someone who has been. By even mentioning it, no matter what the context is and how many quotes or “not”s you put around it, you can already make a female reader feel discouraged - such a serious topic, and it’s being used here for a cheap political takedown. A couple of women in OSM whom I have known for a while have reached out to me personally to make this point and I appreciate that very much. I now understand that no matter how many people are using the phrase, we should all work towards getting rid of it as soon as possible, rather than using it as if it was everyday language to make points that do not even have anything to do with sexual assault. I will certainly be more careful in the future. I will still be finding clear words when speaking out against things or behaviour that I find problematic, but I will double check not to put anyone in the crossfire by choosing the wrong words or the wrong figures of speech. If you are a woman and if anything I ever said or wrote in OSM has given you the impression that I am in the least a misogynist, or don’t want women in OSM, or think that they are inferior programmers, or their place is in the home with the kids or any of that last-century shit, please be assured that nothing could be further from the truth. I have worked with many women in OSM and I think we got along well even when we had different opinions. Over the years, I’ve personally introduced more than a hundred women to OSM mapping through introductory courses at the local university and other events. I’m also teaching women to code as part of their GIS studies at the local university, and I think that within the limits of what I can do as a man, I’m doing these jobs well, treating women with the greatest respect, encouraging them, never once being condescending or giving them the impression that their male classmates are “better at tech” (newsflash, they’re not, though they often think they are). I’m totally on board with the idea that people of any gender should get the same chances in life. That includes taking steps to support underrepresented genders in OSM, and that includes not throwing around phrases about sexual assault in discussions about map attribution. I am sorry for that; it was a bad judgement on my part. If you are a woman in OSM - or a woman interested in OSM - and there’s something I can do to make OSM a nicer place for you, feel free to reach out. OSM needs more women, not less. Sincerely, Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap
Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community
Hi, when I write something on a mailing list, it is clear that I am the author and that I have to take responsibility for what I write. If I write bullshit, people will rightly point out my mistakes. If I offend someone, it is clear who the offending party is. This document that you have published here "on behalf of the signatories" contains a number of accusations against me, but unlike on a mailing list I am not told who has been making these accusations, and I am not able to represent myself in the same forum where the accusations are made. I would like to dispute the claim that I was using "dehumanizing language", but I fear that you have already spread your claim to the world without giving me that opportunity. I assume that the moral legitimacy for such an action comes from the assumption that I am somehow higher up some pecking order, and that it is always ok to attack those who are somehow "above", even with unfair means, because them being higher up means that the playing field is not fair to begin with. In order to bolster that claim, I am being made into more than just an average human being: I am "past board member of OSMF" (true), "administrator on four mailing lists" (unsure), and "member of many working groups" (false, it is only one). I might be an administrator on some mailing lists. I remember recently writing to a co-admin of osmf-talk because I had lost the password. This is not a job that in OSM's reality carries actual responsibility, or power. I cannot remember a single instance where I have used special powers of a mailing list moderator. This is a job that, in OSM, is passed around to whoever doesn't run away fast enough. At most it involves logging in to the web interface and debugging someone's complaint why their emails don't get through. It is literally not worth mentioning. Why am I going on about this? I have never used this mailing list "power" for good or bad, nor is it advertised anywhere to embiggen my status. Why, therefore, do the authors of the document choose to make a big deal out of that? It does sound grand to an outsider, right? Administrator of four mailing lists, by golly, that must be an influential person, right? But we all know that it has zero meaning. So either that particular "fact" has been introduced into the document by someone who is not at all familiar with how things run around here - someone who lacks the cultural closeness to the medium to judge what is happening there - OR it has been written by someone who knows precisely that being a mailing list administrator counts for nothing, but has included that fact anyway, deliberately misleading an outside audience. Same with the "member of many working groups". I am saddened by the hate that I read in your document, but I am even more saddened by the fact that whoever hates me so didn't even care to get these facts right. I think that some of the suggestions you make have merit, and I find it very unfortunate that you're basically asking people to sign off on your list of good suggestions with a small aside of "BTW this Frederik Ramm guy has sent a dehumanizing message". Supporters of your document don't even get the option of saying "agree on your plan, but don't agree on the moral judgement you're passing on this one named person." You might be right about some of the systemic issues you list in your document, but making me the only named bad person in your document and therefore, by implication, an example of all that is wrong in OSM, has a sour taste. It is not an instrument that you would wish other people use against you. You shouldn't, therefore, use it against me. The unnamed authors of the document should have the dignity to separate the quarrel they have with me from the quarrel they have with systemic issues in OSM. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-se] Reverting undiscussed Lantmäteriet import
Hi, On 12/7/20 12:33, Johan wrote: > If it would be possible to exclude this region > (https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/935657) from the revert, that > would be helpful. I will do QA on all the imported elements, refine, > connect and reclassify as needed. If this request poses an unecessarily > huge obstacle for the DWG effort to combat this import - please go ahead > and revert it all. No problem, I have identified these 125 changesets as lying wholly or mostly in that region: 94736549 94736550 94736555 94737199 94737297 94737478 94737607 94737856 94738026 94738530 94738786 94738919 94739012 94739174 94739219 94739688 94740035 94740071 94740241 94740378 94778106 94778109 94778112 94778194 94778197 94778198 94778515 94778542 94778602 94778630 94778659 94778694 94778852 94778861 94778878 94778953 94778981 94779104 94779174 94779293 94779495 94779645 94779742 94779923 94780019 94780156 94780224 94780304 94780567 94780792 94781175 94781946 94782119 94782125 94782148 94782153 94782224 94782343 94782350 94782389 94782399 94782417 94782446 94782499 94782537 94782572 94782589 94782601 94782621 94782646 94782669 94782732 94782756 94782801 94782880 94782909 94782952 94782971 94783012 94783065 94783126 94783177 94783238 94783269 94783323 94783556 94783624 94783792 94783875 94784047 94784079 94784157 94784213 94784269 94784445 94784504 94784568 94784621 94784746 94784789 94784801 94784871 94785022 94785087 94785274 94785292 94785312 94785389 94785392 94785443 94785469 94785576 94785605 94785766 94785793 95187413 95187421 95188385 95188392 95256767 95256927 95256989 95257308 95257463 I will not revert those. A few other changests lie mostly outside the area you indicated but do overlap with it; do you want me to keep these too? 94737856 94738530 94739219 94778198 95187413 94736897 94736890 94736893 94736895 Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-se mailing list Talk-se@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-se
[Talk-se] Reverting undiscussed Lantmäteriet import
(cross-post with forum) Hi, over the last couple of weeks, over 90.000 changesets have been made by 45 different accounts, performing an undiscussed, low-quality Lantmäteriet import (many small bits of tracks or minor roads, unconnected to each other and the rest of the network). Several members of the Swedish OSM community have made the DWG aware of this issue. The worst thing about this is that many of the accounts used have been hacked - they are accounts of people normally editing elsewhere on the planet, with different editors, in different languages, and certainly not importing Lantmäteriet. Not only is this a slap in the face for all of our hard working volunteers trying to make the best map in Sweden; it is also a crass violation of trust (and very likely also a violation of Swedish law). We (at DWG) are still investigating who is behind this. This is more than just the usual bad import, this is someone who has enough criminal energy to hack into other accounts in an attempt to fly under the radar. We have blocked the accounts involved (a list of accounts we have identified is below). If you know anything that might help us determine the identity of this hacker, please let us know at d...@osmfoundation.org. We're planning to revert the import in the coming days. Bye Frederik List of accounts identified (remember, many of these will be innocent users that had their account hacked): 30d4f4e1ccf24 Anggele Beckster55 Daly Riandi Gary18 IsabelenEvelyn Lana Villa Nicolas59380 Projekt-rolli RobertKluijver Ryan Seid SLC Sivia1811 TTSS ViktorPurtin1 Yesbolaga _underscore_ ahateam ankon annedukh arraggonn barbara61 couch-potato dbmercer dmitmia estrellaoruro faithace flyup2000 franz0078 hako0215 jeppe2011 jojoAdventure jona0918 kamilpost mapeditorkepno rohweder thageboelling tomas471 tomto1 tonypepe ulaB ussifonyll-39 uwasescott voodoobaby xcvb xerxes76 -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-se mailing list Talk-se@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-se
Re: [Talk-de] Kandidatur für den OSMF-Vorstand
Hallo, On 12/4/20 22:04, Mark Obrembalski wrote: > Für die anstehende Wahl ist es zwar zu spät, aber was künftige Wahlen > angeht, könntest Du ja einfach beitreten... Kostet jetzt ja nicht mal mehr was, wenn man "aktiver Mapper" ist ;) Auch von mir übrigens ein "Daumen hoch" für Tobias' Agenda! Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Please review "Community attribution advice” wiki page
Hi, On 12/4/20 21:41, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > Please review the page and make any comments for improvement if needed: Might be worth waiting until the next OSMF board meeting (in 5 days) which has the official attribution guidelines on its agenda; perhaps they come to a decision on that which would likely also inform any discussion about this advice page - either the community is happy enough with the official guidelines which would then make this page expendable, or at least the page could use language like "in addition/in contrast to the official requirement, lah lah lah". Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions
Hi, it occurs to me that I should have provided more context to this message. I wrote: On 12/3/20 00:44, Frederik Ramm wrote: > People have thought the same about Donald Trump - yeah, this > whole grab-them-by-the-pussy talk is just showmanship and once elected > he'll be more presidential. But don't be fooled. Mike is going to grab > our licence by the pussy just as he promised he would The quote I have been using is from a tape recording of Donald Trump, the outgoing president of the United States of America. The full quote goes like this: "And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab 'em by the pussy. You can do anything." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_Access_Hollywood_tape) It was recorded and became public before he became president, but apparently not enough people found it bad enough, or they thought that it was just "locker room talk" and not to be taken seriously. Obviously, "grabbing people by the pussy" is a loathsome thing to do, and even Trump in this quote is aware of that, because he chooses it as an example of something that you can do "when you're a star". Facebook undoubtedly is "a star" on the tech circuit, and they get away with lots of things that are loathsome. Exactly a year ago today, I have compiled a small list of these loathsome things here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/woodpeck/diary/391480 (there's also a couple of agreeing and disagreeing comments below the post; I'd like to particularly direct your attention to the agreeing comment by Nancy Pelosi). More things have happened in the last 12 months of course. Therefore, the very least I would expect of a board candidate who is employed by Facebook is to clearly separate their OSMF candidacy from their employment. I don't see that coming from Mike. I feel that he is clearly riding the "I am a star" ticket here - "I can do anything". I have been called out as using sexist language here; for me, it looked like I was using very well-known political quote that clearly expressed the concept of "person believes they can get away with doing loathsome things because they are a star, and they even get elected". My statement was not intended to trivialize sexual harassment (and I would certainly not have been one of the 60+ million Americans who thought that "this was just locker room talk" and waved Trump through in 2016 had I been an American citizen). But my statement needed something loathsome to work. Whatever other wording I could have chosen - like: "get away with murder" - could have been interpreted as trivializing whichever loathsome thing I would have used; so I'm at a loss here. (Just to be clear, I have not accused Mike of any form of sexual harassment, just as I don't accuse someone of murder when I say that they think they can get away with murder.) Those of you who think that my comments were divisive, or lacked politeness, I'm sorry but I cannot accommodate you, I think that in a situation like this clear and strong words are required to condemn loathsome activities by a company, or a lack of distancing by that company's employee. But those of you who feel that by quoting Trump as a bad example and painting Mike as walking in those "when you're a star you can do anything" footsteps I have trivialized sexual harassment or somehow made sexual harassment more likely or denigrated women or made it less likely for them to want to join the OSMF board - I'm sorry, I apologize, it wasn't my intention. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] Washington DC place node cleanup
Hi, On 04.12.20 12:33, Mikel Maron wrote: > I'm not sure what the "name" tag should be, but I am wondering what the point > of the translations are which simply duplicate the default name. Is it like a > marker to say "don't try calling this place anything else"? Is that common, > seems unneccesary? Every now and then we have an avid fan of language X go around the globe and add name:X tags, it always looks to me like an attempt at making the language more relevant (especially if name:X==name). "Hey, language X is not dead yet, we still call Washington Washington!!!" I have often argued for just dropping name:X if it is the name as name, because I would assume that every language-specific map or other use case would revert to the name tag if no language-specific name was present. The counter-argument was usually that if Washington has a name:de=Washington then you positively know that this is the name used in Germany, whereas if it doesn't have a name:de tag it might just be "not yet mapped". Fat chance with name:de ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Washington DC place node cleanup
Hi, when reverting an edit this morning I noticed that the node for Washington (https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/158368533) has myriad name:xx tags, many of which seem to be some variant of "Washington D.C." (with or without commas or dots), whereas the "local" name seems to be just Washington, without the D.C. As a native speaker of German I can assure you that we don't call the US capital "Washington D.C." as the name:de tag claims; I would assume that it is similar for most other languages. The German-language OSM map at https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=10=38.70174=-76.93764 has a mechanism where it displays the German name and then, if the local name is different, the local name below; since the German name "Washington D.C." and the local name "Washington" are different, this leads to a somewhat funny display (whereas the logic works ok for other US cities). I could of course fix the German name but I think that it might need a more thorough review and I don't feel competent for that. Two name tags (and this is checking only those that use Roman letters) look like they might be entirely wrong and refer to the District of Columbia only: name:lfn=Distrito de Columbia name:mi=Takiwā o Columbia Then again, I've heard people say "I was in D.C." and mean the city, so perhaps that *is* a legitimate name for the city? Maybe someone in the US community wants to have a look and do this right. It is a bit of a conundrum in OSM - we usually say that local knowledge tops everything, but then again for many of the languages there might not even *be* a local Washington mapper in OSM ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions
Hi, On 12/2/20 23:09, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote: > FB’s attribution to OSM is available to any viewer in a place that > is commonly associated with attribution. > > Barely visible icon that must be clicked is not a standard place for > attribution. Agree with Mateusz, and I'm just flabbergasted how someone can kick our license in the groin and have the audacity to ask for the community to thank them for it with a board seat, where they will be tasked with upholding values they apparently don't share. If Mike Migurski at least had the decency to say: "Yeah, my employer sucks with attribution, I know, and I'm trying to get it fixed." I wouldn't believe him but at least he'd say something that is ok. But instead he says "y'all suck with your baseless ideas of attribution, please vote for me." Anyone who thinks that, once elected, Mike will put OSM's interests before those of Facebook because that's his job as a board member, think twice. People have thought the same about Donald Trump - yeah, this whole grab-them-by-the-pussy talk is just showmanship and once elected he'll be more presidential. But don't be fooled. Mike is going to grab our licence by the pussy just as he promised he would, and he's being paid a fine salary for that from one of the most disturbing mega-corps on the planet. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Removal of 'unsuitable' content from an OSM-related site
Hi, On 02.12.20 09:49, Nick Whitelegg wrote: > As I said I am paying for this out of my own money and do not want the > storage space to be used for purposes other than panos of walking trails. I think you have already done *much* more than can be expected of you. I would have removed the data long ago. Or, if you are in a business-y mood, offer to keep their images if they pay you some money - depending on what their use-case and expertise is, it might be cheaper for them to pay you than to run things themselves. If you're lucky, it pays for the whole server and then some. That of course then puts you in a situation where you will have some obligations, and you'd need to explain to them that they can't expect you to fix a bug on Christmas Eve. Which is likely going to be ok for them, since at the moment they rely on a service that could delete their images for good any time ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[Talk-at] Hausnummern in Puch bei Hallein
Hallo, eine E-Mail an die Data Working Group sagt, dass der Ort 5412 Puch bei Hallein in Österreich ursprünglich eine Hausnumerierung nach Bau-Reihenfolge hatte (also Haus Nr. 100 ist das 100., das in dem Ort gebaut wurde), und erst im Juni 2020 wurde alles umgestellt. Hier ist eine Übersicht über die Änderungen: https://www.puchbeihallein.gv.at/Uebersicht_neue_Strassenbezeichnungen_Hausnummern OSM hat noch den "alten Stand". Derjenige, der die Mail geschrieben hat, ist selbst kein Mapper, würde aber durchaus mithelfen, wenn man ihm sagt, was zu tun ist. Ich verweise ihn mal auf diese Nachricht, und wenn er will, kann er sich ja selbst in die Diskussion einklinken. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-de] Flyer "Ihre Öffnungszeiten wurden zu OSM hinzugefügt"
Hallo, On 11/14/20 16:26, spa...@t-online.de wrote: > Genau dafür wäre ein kleiner Flugzettel praktisch (DIN A5 oder > Visitenkarte oder ...) der kurz und präzise informiert was man getan hat > (Öffnungszeiten zu OSM hinzugefügt, evtl auch Firmennamen, Informationen > zur Speisekarte etc., vielleicht alles weitere mit einem kleinen > Freitextfeld), was OSM eigentlich ist und ein netter Hinweis darauf dass > er/sie diese Informationen am Besten selber pflegt inkl. Link zu einem > speziellen Wiki Artikel in dem es eine Schritt-für-Schritt-Anleitung nur > dieser Problematik für genau diese Zielgruppe Nette Idee, aber ich fürchte, sie wird nicht funktionieren. Und zwar deshalb, weil es, je nachdem, in welcher Branche Du Dein Geschäft hast, hunderte von irgendwelchen windigen "Branchenverzeichnissen" gibt, die Dich regelmässig anschreiben und Dir mitteilen, dass Du jetzt in ihrem Verzeichnis eingetragen bist. Meistens ist das Geschäftsmodell so, dass sie einen Zettel beilegen, auf dem abgedruckt ist, was sie über Dich erfasst haben - perfide manchmal mit absichtlichem Fehler - und Du wirst gebeten, eventuelle Korrekturen doch kurz auf dem Schreiben zu vermerken und es zurückzuschicken, womit Du dann einen Vertrag über 3 Jahre Branchenbuch-Eintrag zu je EUR 750 geschlossen hast. Nicht immer ist der Betrug ganz so dreist; manchmal ist es einfach jemand, der mit seinem Branchenbuch Werbung verkauft oder so, oder jemand, der dir mit kostenlosen Einstiegsangebot helfen will, besser auf Google Maps zu erscheinen. Aber letztendlich will jeder dem Ladenbesitzer Geld oder zumindest Arbeitszeit aus der Tasche ziehen, und immer mit der latenten Drohung: "Sie wollen doch nicht, dass in unserem Verzeichnis etwas falsches über Sie steht... ODER?" Als OSM haben wir zwar nur die besten Absichten, aber beim Ladenbesitzer kommt das nicht an - der Flyer, den Du einwirfst, sieht auf den ersten Blick genauso aus wie der ganze Werbemüll. Im besten Fall wird er ignoriert und weggeworfen, im schlechtesten Fall reicht die Zeit gerade noch, um zu registrieren: "Ach, OpenStreetMap, ist offenbar auch so eine Abzocke." Das ist zumindest meine Meinung. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-at] Meinungen zu Access-Tagging
Hallo, in der Note https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/1268345 schwelt eine Auseinandersetzung zwischen den Usern PPete2 und fkv über das korrekte Access-Tagging bei Vorhandensein der Beschilderung "Fahrverbot ausgenommen von und zu Anrainern". PPete2 bevorzugt ein "access=destination" mit Ausnahmen (foot=yes usw.), während fkv ein "vehicle=destination" bevorzugt. Die jeweiligen Begründungen sind in der Note nachzulesen. Gibt es hierzu Meinungen? Falls das schon diskutiert wurde, gern auch Verweis, ich habe auf Anhieb nichts gesehen. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-de] Vorstandswahlen der OSMF - Kandidatur bis 7.11. Ende des Tages
Hallo, On 06.11.20 12:31, LuKaRo wrote: > Was ist denn überhaupt der Vorteil der Associate Membership? Also aus > welchen Gründen sollte man eine Associate Membership der normalen > Mitgliedschaft gegenüber vorziehen? Der Nachteil der "normalen" gegenüber der "Associate" Membership ist: * Die OSMF ist rechtlich verpflichtet, Auskunft über ihre aktuellen und vergangenen (!) Mitglieder zu erteilen inkl. Wohnanschrift. Das heisst, Dritte können herausfinden, wo Du wohnst; diese (englische, gesetzliche) Vorschrift steht über dem Datenschutz. * Alle Mitglieder haften persönlich, wenn der Verein pleite geht und Schulden hat, mit einem Betrag von bis zu ... *trommelwirbel* ... 1 britischem Pfund ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Vorstandswahlen der OSMF - Kandidatur bis 7.11. Ende des Tages
Hallo, On 11/5/20 22:04, LuKaRo wrote: > Allerdings habe ich auf der von dir verlinkten Wikiseite gesehen, dass man > bereits 90 Tage vor Abstimmungsdatum Mitglied sein muss. Das heißt, es ist > jetzt schon zu spät, um noch Mitglied zu werden und bei der Wahl abstimmen zu > dürfen? Das stimmt. Wir haben diese Regel vor einiger Zeit verschärft - früher waren es nur 30 Tage vor der Wahl, aber wir wollten vermeiden, dass sich irgendein Firmenfuzzi aufstellen lässt und gerade mal schnell den 2000 Angestellten sagt, sie sollen in die OSMF eintreten ;) Das Problem ist dadurch nicht aus der Welt, aber wenigstens muss die Firma es sich jetzt länger vorher überlegen ;) > Falls es für diese Wahl schon zu spät ist, muss ich wohl daran denken, kurz > nach der Wahl Mitglied zu werden, damit ich wenigstens für die nächste Wahl > wahlberechtigt bin. Dazu muss man dann "Normal Member" werden, und nicht > "Associate Member", oder? Wählen dürfen auch die "Associate". Das einzige, was die nicht dürfen ist (a) für den Vorstand kandidieren und (b) über Satzungsänderungen abstimmen. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Vorstandswahlen der OSMF - Kandidatur bis 7.11. Ende des Tages
Hallo, (bei eventuellen Followups bitte ggf. To-Header auf eine Mailingliste einschränken, falls ihr nicht auf beiden seid) Im Dezember ist wieder OSMF-Vorstandswahl. In ziemlich genau 52 Stunden ist Ende der Bewerbungsfrist. Wenn ihr Interesse habt, als Vorstandsmitglied zu dienen, könnt ihr Euch hier eintragen: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/AGM20/Election_to_Board Ihr müsst dazu midnestens seit dem 15. Juni ein "normales" (kein "assoziiertes") Mitglied der OSM sein. Ansonsten gibt es keine Voraussetzungen, aber wenn man gut Englisch kann, ist es für die Vorstandsarbeit von Vorteil ;) Es ist *nicht* erforderlich, bis zur Deadline ein fertiges "Manifesto" (Positionspapier, Wahlprogramm) zu haben; das könnt ihr bis zum 25.11. einreichen. Ihr müsst Euch nur in den nächsten 52 Stunden entscheiden, überhaupt kandidieren zu wollen. Ich selber bin ja nun schon eine Weile raus da, aber es ist meiner Ansicht nach eine wichtige Arbeit. Die OSMF driftet ständig in Richtung der "big business"-Leute, und auch dieses Jahr wird sich wieder Michal Migurski zur Wahl stellen, der beim letzten Mal noch ganz deutlich in seinem Wahlprogramm schrieb, dass er nicht als Privatmann, sondern als Vertreter von Facebook in den Vorstand will - für mich eine sehr schwierige Vorstellung. Wenn ich also jemand anders wählen kann, der nicht das Facebook-Fähnchen schwenkt, wär das super ;) Also, wer sich das vorstellen kann, im OSMF-Board zu arbeiten, der gebe sich einen Ruck und trage sich in die Liste ein. Fragen zur Board-Arbeit beantwortet (laut https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=807474#p807474) gern Tobias, der sich dieses Jahr zur Wiederwahl stellt, bzw. wenn es sehr einfache Sachen sind auch ich, aber ich mache das ja jetzt schon eine Weile nicht mehr. (Oder wer jemanden kennt, der nur ein bisschen überzeugt werden muss, um zu kandidieren... dann überzeugt den ;) Im Board sind mindestens zwei (Rory und Guillaume), wenn Tobias gewählt wird sogar drei, Leute, die gut Deutsch können - also wer da ein bisschen Berührungsängste hat, ist auch gut aufgehoben. Viele Grüße Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-at] Vorstandswahlen der OSMF - Kandidatur bis 7.11. Ende des Tages
Hallo, (bei eventuellen Followups bitte ggf. To-Header auf eine Mailingliste einschränken, falls ihr nicht auf beiden seid) Im Dezember ist wieder OSMF-Vorstandswahl. In ziemlich genau 52 Stunden ist Ende der Bewerbungsfrist. Wenn ihr Interesse habt, als Vorstandsmitglied zu dienen, könnt ihr Euch hier eintragen: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/AGM20/Election_to_Board Ihr müsst dazu midnestens seit dem 15. Juni ein "normales" (kein "assoziiertes") Mitglied der OSM sein. Ansonsten gibt es keine Voraussetzungen, aber wenn man gut Englisch kann, ist es für die Vorstandsarbeit von Vorteil ;) Es ist *nicht* erforderlich, bis zur Deadline ein fertiges "Manifesto" (Positionspapier, Wahlprogramm) zu haben; das könnt ihr bis zum 25.11. einreichen. Ihr müsst Euch nur in den nächsten 52 Stunden entscheiden, überhaupt kandidieren zu wollen. Ich selber bin ja nun schon eine Weile raus da, aber es ist meiner Ansicht nach eine wichtige Arbeit. Die OSMF driftet ständig in Richtung der "big business"-Leute, und auch dieses Jahr wird sich wieder Michal Migurski zur Wahl stellen, der beim letzten Mal noch ganz deutlich in seinem Wahlprogramm schrieb, dass er nicht als Privatmann, sondern als Vertreter von Facebook in den Vorstand will - für mich eine sehr schwierige Vorstellung. Wenn ich also jemand anders wählen kann, der nicht das Facebook-Fähnchen schwenkt, wär das super ;) Also, wer sich das vorstellen kann, im OSMF-Board zu arbeiten, der gebe sich einen Ruck und trage sich in die Liste ein. Fragen zur Board-Arbeit beantwortet (laut https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=807474#p807474) gern Tobias, der sich dieses Jahr zur Wiederwahl stellt, bzw. wenn es sehr einfache Sachen sind auch ich, aber ich mache das ja jetzt schon eine Weile nicht mehr. (Oder wer jemanden kennt, der nur ein bisschen überzeugt werden muss, um zu kandidieren... dann überzeugt den ;) Im Board sind mindestens zwei (Rory und Guillaume), wenn Tobias gewählt wird sogar drei, Leute, die gut Deutsch können - also wer da ein bisschen Berührungsängste hat, ist auch gut aufgehoben. Viele Grüße Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] Moderation at Webforum
Hallo, Montag 14:37 Uhr: > Hallo Stefan, > danke für diesen konstruktiven Vorschlag, ich werde Michael Reichert > also eine Mail senden, ob er dieses Thema im Webforum eröffnen kann. Dienstag 13:19 Uhr: > Keine Reaktion, Na!, eh klar, das war wohl auch so zu erwarten. Der > Moderator des AT-Webforums ist -sagen wir es mal höflich- > arbeitsüberlastet. Das ist doch lächerlich. Wer nicht innerhalb von 23 Stunden antwortet ist "überlastet"? Die einzige Person, die im österreichischen Forum für Moderator-Arbeit sorgt, ist ausgerechnet die, die hier dem Moderator Überlastung vorwirft - mit offtopic-Postings und Verschwörungstheorien, die das Forum für seinen eigentlichen Zweck unbrauchbar machen. Am 24.10. hat Johann a.k.a. addresshistory*org a.k.a. beautifulplaces zum wiederholten Male einen Thread im Forum gekapert und mit unsinnigen Verschwörungstheorien zugemüllt. Dafür hat er am 1.11. eine 8-Monate-Sperre kassiert. Diese Sperre war für den konkreten Verstoß unangemessen hart, aber diese Härte liegt darin begründet, dass Johann ein uneinsichtiger Widerholungstäter ist und frühere Sperren von 1, 2 und 4 Monaten nicht zu einer Verhaltensänderung führten; nach jeder Sperre gibt es eine Chance, ein paar Wochen Ruhe, und dann neues Gezänk. Diese 8-Monate-Sperre wurde von einem (!) Forumsmitglied ausser Johann (nämlich Rogehm) kritisch bewertet, und Johann sieht hier nun eine Gelegenheit, den unliebsamen Moderator Nakaner loszuwerden. Ein drittes Forumsmitglied (nämlich Negreheb) verteidigte hingegen die Aktion Nakaners. Die Diskussion ist hier: https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=807086 Es geht hier nicht um die Frage, ob der Moderator überlastet ist. Es geht schlicht und einfach darum, dass Johann a.k.a. addresshistory*org a.k.a. beautifulplaces es als sein Recht betrachtet, Verschwörungstheorien im Forum breitzutreten (wir kennen sie alle: von "das österreichische Kartografie-Establishment möchte OSM kaputtmachen" über "die Geofabrik will Multipolygone kleinhalten" zu "jemand editiert heimlich in der Datenbank, ohne dass es jemand sehen kann" - allesamt geistiger Durchfall, der nicht mal in sich selbst konsistent ist, geschweige denn irgendwie in der Realität begründet). Das hier ist ein persönlicher Feldzug von Johann a.k.a. addresshistory*org a.k.a. beautifulplaces gegen Nakaner, weiter nichts. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-GB] Hello world and automated change proposal: Add missing URL scheme on UK's Pubs websites
Hi, On 28.09.20 13:53, Dave F wrote: > Anyone can contribute to OSM in ways that best suits them. > He's here asking for advice & guidance ... and that's what he got from me. You're free to give different advice, though I didn't find yours convincing in any way. In my opinion the improvement that can be made by investing one hour in a survey - any survey really - far outweighs the improvement that can be made by investing one hour in automatically adding a string of characters to a certain tag. And even besides that, I am not alone in recommending that anyone getting more involved with OSM should do some mapping first, before they embark on anything else. Just to know what we're about. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Hello world and automated change proposal: Add missing URL scheme on UK's Pubs websites
Rodrigo,
On 27.09.20 17:28, Rodrigo Díez Villamuera wrote:
> After some time using OSM as a user, I decided to make my first step as
> a contributor, hence this email and the proposal inside.
If your first idea of "how to contribute to OSM" is "how to write a
script that runs an automated edit on the body of OSM data", then
something is amiss!
The change you plan to execute is of limited use. Yes, it ensures more
conformity in the data, but it will be a temporary fix (since new
"wrong" URLs can be added at any time). Anyone consuming OSM data must
be able to work with URLs that miss a schema, and indeed today any
browser can do that.
So what your edit does is, it "touches" lots of objects and adds no
meaningful information whatsoever. It creates load on the database; it
creates a new version of every object you touch which, informationally
speaking, is identical to the old version. It produces larger diff
files, larger history files, and on top of that runs the risk of making
data look more current than it is ("oh, this pub has last been changed
by someone two months ago, so surely it will still be in business" when
in fact the last OSMer who saw that pub with their own eyes did so five
years ago).
There are many, many better ways to contribute to OSM than runnning a
useless automated conformity edit. Take a notebook or mobile editor, go
outside, check if the phone booths on OSM are still there on the ground,
add a few opening times, or even trees for that matter - a single hour
of such original work is more useful to OSM that what you are proposing
here.
Remember: OSM is not an IT project.
Bye
Frederik
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Changeset Comments Copyright
Hi GITNE, if you feel that you have let your manners slip in changeset comments in the past, then just adding an apology (instead of starting a discussion about whether it is legal to republish your disrespectful comments) is always an option! http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=1836535 is another site that has all your writing nicely listed. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Changeset Comments Copyright
Hi, On 23.09.20 12:34, GITNE wrote: > The issue is not availability of the data but Slack *republishing* > content Surely Slack is doing that not out of their own decision, but because someone has instructed them (or their web service) to do so? > (for profit) which presumably is not covered either by the ODbL Assuming that the data is covered by ODbL, then "These rights explicitly include commercial use, and do not exclude any field of endeavour." (section 3.0) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] "Limitations on mapping private information" - wiki page
Hi, I added a section explaining that the concept of privacy applies only to living human beings. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] "Limitations on mapping private information" - wiki page
Hi, On 16.09.20 09:17, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote: > Do you think that this page is a good description of community consensus? I think it is about right. I have added a section on "other reasons not to map" which is out of scope of the page, but I wouldn't want people to say "X is not listed on that page so I can map it!" Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Examples of good paid mapping?
Hi, On 9/11/20 23:57, Bryce Cogswell via talk wrote: > Exactly. When companies do it right nobody knows they’re doing it. Except that - because they do it right - they will of course have documented their work on the wiki. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] Opinions on Devil's Slide Bunker (San Mateo, CA)
Thank you all for your comments. I have now added access=no to the paths leading up to the site, and changed the site from tourism=viewpoint to military=bunker with an access=no added to the site for good measure. (Though historic=ruins would probably be as appropriate.) I have also changed the name from "Post-WWII observation point" to "Devil's Slide Bunker" which seems to be the commonly used name (and anyway the previous name was not a name but a description). There's a catalogue of bunker types on the wiki page and if anyone is in the mood, feel free to add the correct one. I think that in this particular case, even if the object is de-facto a tourist destination, tagging it as such invites too much misunderstanding (at least at a time when OSM data consumers, including our own OSM-Carto rendering, are generally not sophisticated enough to suppress advertising a tourist=* object when paired with access=no). The discussion has shown that some of you share this opinion and some would prefer to call a tourist spot a tourist spot even if illegal. I think that a nuanced approach is probably approriate; having the occasional illegal viewpoint on the map is not a big issue but in this particular case we have a fat sign directly at the site telling people to stay away, plus the site isn't off the beaten track but in a tourist-y area so a big tourist symbol on the map could tempt many to stop and look. I hope this is something people can live with. You're welcome to continue this discussion and if the community should come to a general agreement about how to tag tourist attractions with no access then I'm happy to see this changed. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-GB] Pedestrian priority and highway=cycleway
Hi, On 03.09.20 11:29, Robert Skedgell wrote: > I believe the most appropriate base tagging, following the duck tagging > principle for highway=*, for most of the paths in QEOP would be: > highway=cycleway + segregated=no + bicycle=permissive + foot=permissive I think that highway=cycleway implies bicycle=yes so adding a bicycle=permissive would be confusing? In my mental picture the combination highway=cycleway+foot=permissive means: "This is a way made and intended for bicycles. But pedestrians are also tolerated." - which might well be correct given that there seems to be a lot of cycle-related infrastructure around. To be honest, given the rules you cite, I would be tempted to use highway=footway+bicycle=yes OR the dreaded highway=path+bicycle=yes+foot=yes - but I haven't seen how it looks on the ground. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-us] Cooper Country State Forest in Keweenaw County, MI [parcel ownership]
Thanks all, I've made the change on OSM and informed the complainant. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Cooper Country State Forest in Keweenaw County, MI
Correct, sorry, my mistake! On 9/2/20 20:02, Kerry Irons wrote: > It's Copper Country, not Cooper Country. > > Kerry Irons > > On Wed, Sep 2, 2020, 1:55 PM Kevin Kenny <mailto:kevin.b.ke...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 1:47 PM Joseph Eisenberg > mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > My goodness, look at that monstrosity: > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1976405#map=8/46.459/-87.627 > > How can we claim that all of these patches of state-owned land > constitute a single OpenStreetMap feature? > > > Because they share a name, share a management plan, are managed as a > whole, are signed alike, enjoy the same protection status, and are > popularly thought of as a unit. > > The US has some untidy and diffuse features. Some of those untidy > and diffuse features are important to those who live around them, > earn their livings by them, or recreate in them. Don't demand that > we refrain from mapping them because they fail to conform with your > mental model of the world as it ought to be. It comes across as > saying, "My model is fine, fix your country!" I can't fix it, in any > reasonable timeframe at least. I'm constrained to mapping the > country I have. > > -- > 73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Cooper Country State Forest in Keweenaw County, MI
Hi, the DWG has been asked to remove this bit of land https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/146418027#map=13/47.3306/-88.4441 from the "Cooper Country State Forest" protected area since it has been purchased from the state by private individuals in 2006 and "the recent plat books show this". I have been unable to find an online resource to corroborate this claim. Googling for "plat books" turned up some very pretty scans of 1800's surveyor records ;) Perhaps someone more knowledgeable in the US public records landscape can help? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Trouble with getting Superior National Forest
Hi, On 01.09.20 14:40, Kevin Kenny wrote: > We don't map cadastre at least partly out of respect for personal > privacy - something that is not at issue with government-owned land. I think I'm with Joseph here, we don't map cadastre stuff also because it makes no sense for us to become a copy of data that is authoritatively kept elsewhere. OSM's strength is that data can be edited by everybody based on observations. Data for which the sentence "if you edit this it will become wrong" is true should not be in OSM. > A larger point, however, is that we _do_ map land use; we _do_ map > protection status, and we _do_ map constraints on public access. In > this particular case, as with many cases of government-owned land, the > land use, the protection status, and the public access all follow the > property lines. That is what is (implicitly) being mapped; mapping the > property line is the way that it is achieved. I am wary of this line of reasoning because it will in many cases lead to doing exactly what I write above, making a low-quality copy of authoritative data that is kept elsewhere. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Opinions on Devil's Slide Bunker (San Mateo, CA)
Hi,
On 31.08.20 05:38, stevea wrote:
> I don't mean to sound argumentative or antagonistic, but if someone more
> clearly draws a line between "entered map data" and "encouraged people (in
> any way) to do anything illegal," I'd like to follow that line. However,
> nobody has been able to do that (yet).
There *will* be a point where we will not be able to uphold this
distinction. The only question is, have we reached that point yet.
Imagine you set up a nice little web site where people can publicly say
something trivial about their lives. Nobody cares, it's a nice little
web site and of course if someone says something illegal it's not your
fault but that of the person who writes it. Fast forward a couple years,
and you're Twitter and the fact that people kill other people based on
what is written on your platform cannot be shrugged away; while you
would still like to shrug and say "it's not my fault if people abuse my
platform", the public won't let you get away with it.
The same *will* happen to OSM; it is possible that today we can still
get away with shenanigans like tagging a tourist attraction with "wink
wink access=no but everybody goes there anyway", just like in Europe
many people are adding mtb_scale tags to paths that are off-limits for
mountain bikers ("wink wink I am just recording how difficult it *would*
be for MTB if it *were* allowed to ride there..."), and if someone like
AllTrails ignores our "access=only_if_police_not_looking" tags we can
say "uh, their fault for misinterpreting our tags". But we won't be able
to deny this responsibility forever, at least if we record our data in a
way that can easily lead to misinterpretation.
And in my view, tagging something as "desirable to go there" via a
tourism=* tag, no matter how many
access=no/private/only_under_cover_of_darkness we add to that, that
would be disingenious.
I am all for tagging private/illegal/closed trails and paths and mark
them access=no or access=private; that's what DWG typically does when
land owners complain that they want "their" paths removed. We argue that
knowing about a private/illegal/closed trail can still be useful to aid
in navigation, and save lives in an emergency.
And I'd be ok with recording the fact that there is an old bunker at
that location. This knowledge, too, can be useful for navigation or
maybe even in an emergency. But tourism=*, I'd shy away from.
And @Mateusz, I am not convinced that "there are great views from here"
is sufficient for tourism=viewpoint because it is too subjective. With
that reasoning, someone with a personal low bar for "great views" could
plaster the map with tourism=viewpoint.
Bye
Frederik
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Re: [Talk-us] Opinions on Devil's Slide Bunker (San Mateo, CA)
Hi, On 8/30/20 22:08, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us wrote: > Though I wonder what should be done with viewpoint itself. In my mind, a viewpoint is not just something from where you have a nice view; it needs to be signposted or called a viewpoint. This, while enjoying some "destination" or perhaps even "attraction" status, is not what I would call a viewpoint. And even a tourist attraction, I think, should not be something that is illegal to visit. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Opinions on Devil's Slide Bunker (San Mateo, CA)
Hi, "Devil's Slide Bunker" is a WW2 observation point near Pacifica in San Mateo County in California. OSM has the bunker listed as a "tourism=viewpoint", along with access tracks from the nearby CA-1 highway: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/37.56868/-122.51506 The area is technically on private ground, and a sign at the location says: "Warning. Hiking or climbing prohibited in this area. This property is designated as a dangerous area. It shall be unlawful to trespass thereon. San Mateo County Ordinance No. 1462" (http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/dssign.jpg) At the same time, searching the web shows tons of tourist guides that recommend a visit to this prohibited place, replete with photos showing lots of people around, and "Devil’s Slide Bunker sits on private property and is technically not open to the public, but a nearby parking area for the Devil’s Slide Trail, easy access along a short dirt trail, and no fencing mean that people stop to check it out and walk around every day." The DWG has received a complaint from a concerned citizen (via AllTrails) complaining about this illegal tourist attraction on OSM. While it is undeniably a de-facto tourist attraction, and undeniably offers great views, I think it should probably be changed to historic=ruins, access=no, and the tracks leading up to it should also be changed to access=no. Opinions? Best Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Mapcarta with wrong info in Utah - whom to contact?
Hi, On 27.08.20 00:30, Alex Weech wrote: > They appear to be pulling straight from Google Interesting! I didn't know you could (show an OSM map and pull POIs from Google). I'll relay that to them and suggest they discuss with Google. I'll also shoot Mapcarta a message, thanks Ian for pointing me to the contact, don't know why I missed that. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Mapcarta with wrong info in Utah - whom to contact?
Hi, does anyone have contacts with Mapcarta? https://mapcarta.com/Eagles_Campground_2422656 lists a camp ground that is not on OSM, and has never been, together with a phone number that belongs to the USDA forest service and they're not super stoked about would-be campers calling them to book. MapCarta claims to be using OpenStreetMap data (hence why the USDA forest service contacted us). But clearly this campground comes from a different source. (Which is just as well because Mapcarta doesn't have proper attribution.) (The phone number in question was indeed recorded for a different camp site in Utah, Monte Cristo Campground, and I've removed it from there. Doesn't solve the Eagles Campground riddle though.) Mapcarta doesn't have any point of contact on the site and the whois doesn't return anything useful either. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSRM-talk] Blocking zones in OSM
Or, what Julien said ;) On 26.08.20 10:31, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > On 26.08.20 03:29, Alex Valencia wrote: >> So I was thinking if there is a proper way to achieve this goal. We >> are considering separating the matrix calculation over the map in a >> separate function and feeding it with a decorated version of the >> original map where we can remove these regions on the fly prior to the >> calculation. But I'm also not sure if this is a realistic way either. > > The only routing package I know that does polygonal avoid areas out of > the box is OpenRouteService which internally is powered by a modified > version of GraphHopper. However, only the simple route request supports > avoid areas, not the matrix request, and it's only available if you use > basic A*. > > Using avoid areas with Contraction Hierarchies is impossible unless the > avoid areas are baked into the graph (i.e. known at graph building > time). If your avoid areas *are* known at graph building time then > actually removing edges from the OSM data (or doing so while reading it > into OSRM) is certainly option that gives you the fastest routing speed. > > If you want to use OSRM, and if you want to use dynamic avoid areas, > then this *might* be possible with a MLD routing graph which has the > option of changing the weighting of certain edges without re-generating > the graph; this was implemented to allow for live traffic (search for > "osrm traffic" and you'll find some stuff about it, using > osrm-customize). However this still requires you to identify the edges > you wish to cut off (by giving them a zero rating), and it is only > possible globally and not on a per-request basis (unlike > OpenRouteService which lets you set avoid areas per-request). > > If you have a number of pre-defined avoid areas and want to determine > dynamically which of these should be avoided then it might be possible > to abuse a feature that was built to avoid certain road classes (i.e. > avoid motorways, avoid ferries); potentially you could use that to > define a specific road class for all roads in your avoid area A, a > different class for avoid area B etc., and then make a routing request > that "avoids class A". This feature is documented here > https://github.com/Project-OSRM/osrm-backend/issues/4006 > > Bye > Frederik > -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ OSRM-talk mailing list OSRM-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osrm-talk
Re: [OSRM-talk] Blocking zones in OSM
Hi, On 26.08.20 03:29, Alex Valencia wrote: > So I was thinking if there is a proper way to achieve this goal. We > are considering separating the matrix calculation over the map in a > separate function and feeding it with a decorated version of the > original map where we can remove these regions on the fly prior to the > calculation. But I'm also not sure if this is a realistic way either. The only routing package I know that does polygonal avoid areas out of the box is OpenRouteService which internally is powered by a modified version of GraphHopper. However, only the simple route request supports avoid areas, not the matrix request, and it's only available if you use basic A*. Using avoid areas with Contraction Hierarchies is impossible unless the avoid areas are baked into the graph (i.e. known at graph building time). If your avoid areas *are* known at graph building time then actually removing edges from the OSM data (or doing so while reading it into OSRM) is certainly option that gives you the fastest routing speed. If you want to use OSRM, and if you want to use dynamic avoid areas, then this *might* be possible with a MLD routing graph which has the option of changing the weighting of certain edges without re-generating the graph; this was implemented to allow for live traffic (search for "osrm traffic" and you'll find some stuff about it, using osrm-customize). However this still requires you to identify the edges you wish to cut off (by giving them a zero rating), and it is only possible globally and not on a per-request basis (unlike OpenRouteService which lets you set avoid areas per-request). If you have a number of pre-defined avoid areas and want to determine dynamically which of these should be avoided then it might be possible to abuse a feature that was built to avoid certain road classes (i.e. avoid motorways, avoid ferries); potentially you could use that to define a specific road class for all roads in your avoid area A, a different class for avoid area B etc., and then make a routing request that "avoids class A". This feature is documented here https://github.com/Project-OSRM/osrm-backend/issues/4006 Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ OSRM-talk mailing list OSRM-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osrm-talk
Re: [Talk-at] OSM AT Erreichbarkeit
Hallo, On 2020-08-20 02:49, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: > Gestattet mir trotzdem eine Frage: Warum redet ihr immer von einem > "local Chapter"? Wovon handelt dieses Kapitel, und in welcher > Publikation soll es erscheinen? Schreibt ihr an einem Buch über OSM? > Können wir dazu was beitragen? Es geht dabei um dasjenige Kapitel im Reiseführer, in dem die Gaststätten aufgelistet sind. Das ist für OSM relevant, weil wir ja regelmässig Stammtische abhalten wollen, deswegen sind wir alle bemüht, dazu beizutragen. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
[Talk-de] Kostenlose OSMF-Mitgliedschaft für Aktive - Craftmapper in die OSMF ;)
Hallo, Michael Spreng von der Membership Working Group der OSMF hat gerade geschrieben (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2020-August/007162.html), dass die schon länger geplante Regel "aktive Mapper kommen kostenlos in die OSMF" jetzt umgesetzt ist. https://join.osmfoundation.org/active-contributor-membership/application-form-for-active-contributor-membership-mapping/ ist das Spezial-Formular für "Mapper mit mindestens 42 Mappingtagen im letzten Jahr". Details zum Programm hier: https://join.osmfoundation.org/active-contributor-membership - der kleine Wermutstropfen ist, dass man das Formular jedes Jahr wieder neu ausfüllen muss, aber sonst würden sich halt zu viele Karteileichen ansammeln, die sich längst nicht mehr für OSM interessieren. Ich fand schon immer, dass die "Craftmapper" in der OSMF unterrepräsentiert waren. Viele Craftmapper scheren sich nicht genug um Politik, um in einen Verein einzutreten (und sehen vielleicht auch nicht ein, warum sie zu all ihrer Arbeit noch £15 obendrauf zahlen sollen). Vielleicht gelingt es uns jetzt, mit diesem Programm im Rücken an unsere Power-Mapper heranzutreten und zu sagen: Du hast es *verdient*, in die OSMF aufgenommen zu werden, hier, füll doch dieses Formular aus, alles weitere geht automatisch. Du hast durch Deine Mapping-Arbeit sozusagen den ersten Schritt schon getan... Nicht dass ich jetzt ein Skript schreiben wollte, das alle Leute rausfindet, die mehr als 42 Tage im letzten Jahr gemappt haben... aber wir wissen ja, wer in unserer Gegend die Powermapper sind. Bzw. die meisten von Euch sind das ja auch. Also... anmelden und in Zukunft mitreden ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-at] OSM AT Erreichbarkeit
Hallo,
On 19.08.20 17:58, Rudolf Mayer wrote:
> Ich kann bei FOSSGIS auch nirgends sehen, dass sie auch Österreich
> repräsentieren..
Der FOSSGIS ist die Regional-Organisation ("Local Chapter") der OSGeo
Foundation für die Region D-A-CH, aber bei OpenStreetMap ist der FOSSGIS
ausschliesslich für Deutschland zuständig. Die Schweizer hatten schon
lange vor dem FOSSGIS ihr eigenes anerkanntes OSMF-Local-Chapter, und
der Verein openstreetmap.at hat sich bislang meines Wissens nicht um
diesen Status bemüht.
Bye
Frederik
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Re: [Talk-de] Starrflügel-Drohne für Luftbilder
Hallo, On 14.08.20 12:52, dktue wrote: > Muss es denn ein Starrflügler sein, falls ja, warum? Quadrokopter > schaffen heute auch 30 Minuten, sind günstig und Software die autonom > ein Polygon abzeilt gibt es auch. Das wäre schon auch interessant. Ich dachte, dass Starrflügler leiser sind und ruhiger fliegen und daher vermutlich besser geeignet sind. Hast Du denn mit einem bestimmten Quadrokopter/einer bestimmten Software gute Erfahrungen gemacht? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Starrflügel-Drohne für Luftbilder
Hallo, kennt sich jemand aus beim Stand der Technik mit Starrflügel-Drohnen? Ich hätte gern so eine, die man in die Luft schmeisst und die dann ein paar Bahnen über dem Baugebiet dreht und ein schönes Luftbild macht. Und möglichst keine 20.000 Euro kostet ;) Wenn ich die Rechtslage richtig verstehe, ist es ja nicht verboten, dass die Drohne selber (nach einer vorporogrammierten Bahn) fliegt - ich muss sie lediglich immer im Blick haben und die Steuerung übernehmen können, falls was wäre, oder? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Separating all metadata from coordinates in OSM into a wikibase instance (Was: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM)
Hi, On 8/9/20 14:29, pangoSE wrote: > I therefore suggest we create a wikibase instance called OSMData and > migrate all our tags into that system. I don't see the merit, and your idea of putting that database under CC0 is not feasible as it would amount to a license change. I think that "linked data" is a hype that you are succumbing to. I also think that your use of the term "metadata" is wrong - in my mind, metadata would be data about the survey process (like e.g. a source tag), not qualities of objects we survey. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] Rooftop Solar & UPRNs
Hi, On 8/7/20 23:27, Dan S wrote: > The progress on the solar panel mapping is astonishing. Indeed it is. Recently I zoomed in to a small countryside residential neighbourhood in the UK, and all that was mapped there was (a) the streets (b) the bus stops and (c) a single rooftop solar collector. Most mappers I know would probably have let themselves be distracted and traced some buildings while they were there ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for Software Dispute Resolution Panel
Hi, On 8/4/20 21:30, Christoph Hormann wrote: > Significant parts of the authority the DWG has among mappers derive from > the fact that it is not composed of political appointees. Speaking as a DWG member, I always hoped that people would judge us by the work we do, not how we got the job ;) And about the matter at hand, the DWG has been asked whether they would like to take on this extra responsibility and we have not yet responded with anything definitive. On the one hand, this extra job would use more of our resources and divert them from other important work; on the other hand, any dispute within the community over editor presets and the like would sooner or later bubble up to DWG anyway. If a panel is created that is separate from DWG, we'd definitely have to build ourselves some safeguards that avoid finding the two bodies on different sides of a dispute ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2
Hi, On 8/2/20 14:51, pangoSE wrote: > I never use nonfree software like flash so I never tried P2. What is so > special about it? Is there something hindering adding that specialness > (as a plugin perhaps) to JOSM? Every single Potlatch user has probably been told 20 times that they should be switching to JOSM because it is so much better. If they haven't until now, they never will. I'd recommend a pragmatic approach here. If we can spend EUR 2500 to make life easier for those several thousand people using Potlatch regularly, and most of them doing so because they want and not because they have no other choice, then why not. If you look for principles and symbolism, yes Potlatch currently requires a non-free platform to run, but the OSMF trying to support a multitude of editors rather than pick one and support only that is IMHO a positive signal. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2
Hi,
nice to see you rescue a few worthwhile things that have fallen through
the cracks of the Microgrant programme.
> During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make
> it, but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure”
> process,
Are you planning to take the funds for these projects out of the
"Pineapple Grant" money, or out of the regular budget?
> The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by
> trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy.
I think that "trusted long-term volunteers" is key here, and somewhat of
a weak point at the same time.
I notice that all three proposals are very short on hard deliverables;
what they mostly promise is working a certain number of hours on a
certain thing but there is no guarantee that, or to what extent, the
thing is going to be achieved. Richard's proposal is the clearest here
("The result will be a version of Potlatch 2 that can be run on Mac and
Windows laptops"), whereas Jochen and Sarah only commit to working on
something, not to actually achieving it. This means we'll pay them no
matter what.
Now this is all fine because we have reason to believe that every one of
the three proposals will be a good investment and even if a goal could
not be achieved, the money would at least land with people who have done
a lot of volunteer stuff for OSM in the past. But the criteria are fuzzy
- why do we trust these three people that if we give them money to work
on something it will be worth it? Assume someone came along saying wait
a minute, I can do the same for half the money! And then we would say,
err, umm, sorry, no, we don't trust you in the same way we trust these
"trusted long-term volunteers".
Looking forward, it might become necessary to define deliverables more
clearly and make payment conditional on results having been achieved,
rather on time having been spent. But if you're lucky...
> In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group
> (EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and
> budget management for such projects.
... the EWG can take over that job ;)
Bye
Frederik
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Re: [Talk-GB] Admin Boundaries and Combined Authorities
Hi, On 7/27/20 00:50, Colin Smale wrote: > If they are accepted as boundary=administrative, what admin level should > be used? The LAs of which the CAs are composed are sometimes > Metropolitan Boroughs with admin_level=8, and sometimes Unitary > Authorities with admin_level=6. I am tending towards admin_level=5; this > value is/was in use for the Regions, but they no longer have an admin > function (if they ever had one) so I consider admin level 5 as > "available" for use by Combined Authorities. A question that should be considered together with this is: Does/should England have full coverage (i.e. no "holes") on boundary=administrative with any admin level above 4? Situation in many countries is that they "mostly" do on 6, with some exceptions for city states, capital districts and the like. I have absolutely no idea how this is in England and won't offer any - just saying it is worth thinking about. For example, the edit that prompted this discussion added a boundary=adminsistrative to West Yorkshire, which until then was a "hole" in the AL6 map. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-es] Edit war about names in Basque speaking regions
Hi, one user has changed several street names from the Spanish form to a combined "Basque / Spanish" form. This has angered another user and there have been fights about how these streets should be named. I have blocked the user "Hartz Beltza" in https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/3807 and requested that they discuss the matter with the Spanish community before they continue. (I have also requested from user H2Ox2 that he use better changeset comments.) In OpenStreetMap it is very rare that we use dual languages in the "name" tag but it *does* happen, for example in the bilingual (Italian/German speaking) region of South Tyrol. There, both languages are actually shown on the street signs. I don't know how this is in the Basque regions. I am not saying you cannot do it but it required a broad consensus that it is the right thing to do. It is a decision that the Spanish community should be making, and the DWG will then help enforce it. Please continue this discussion in Spanish. I am providing an automated translation of my message below. Bye Frederik (DWG Ticket #202007241145) Un usuario ha cambiado varios nombres de calles del formulario en español a un formulario combinado "euskara / español". Esto ha enojado a otro usuario y ha habido peleas sobre cómo se deben nombrar estas calles. Bloqueé al usuario "Hartz Beltza" en https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/3807 y solicité que discutieran el asunto con la comunidad española antes de continuar. (También solicité al usuario H2Ox2 que utilice mejores comentarios de conjunto de cambios). En OpenStreetMap es muy raro que usemos dos idiomas en la etiqueta "nombre", pero * sucede *, por ejemplo, en la región bilingüe (italiano / alemán) del Provincia autónoma de Bolzano. Allí, ambos idiomas se muestran en las señales de tráfico. No sé cómo es esto en las regiones vascas. No digo que no pueda hacerlo, pero requirió un amplio consenso de que es lo correcto. Es una decisión que debe tomar la comunidad española, y el DWG ayudará a hacerla cumplir. Por favor continúe esta discusión en español. -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
[Talk-us] Someone from Craigslist here?
Hi, a recent complaint to DWG led me to investigate the area around Greenville (Plumas County, Northern California), and I found that a couple TIGER streets that had been deleted on OSM in January 2019 were still visible on Craigslist (https://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/craigslist.png shows current OSM left, and craigslist right; https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/66467286 is the deletion changeset). It would certainly be beneficial to both us and Craigslist if they could update. Maybe there's someone here who has contacts and could prod them. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-GB] Mapping of Dover Harbour Board
Hi, the DWG has received the following message: > Hi, > > A bit of feedback. > The openstreet map of Dover Harbour-UK has now become quite out of date. > Just wondering when it will receive an update after all the works done over > the past 2 years with the Western Docks revival project and the new marina, > quayside changes etc. > > Thanks, > (Name removed by F.R.) I'll reply that OSM is what its mappers make of it, and an invitation to contribute - but if anyone is familiar with the topic, perhaps this is an incentive to work on it. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [talk-au] Restricted postcodes due to Covid-19
Hi, On 03.07.20 15:46, Bren Barnes wrote: > Perhaps more of a thought experiment at this time, but how would > "restricted postcodes" interact with OSM routing? Example: > > boundary=administrative > name=brooklyn > access:covid19=private > or? > opening_hours:covid19=restricted @ (Jul 02-Jul 29) > > I'm just wondering if any current OSM routing software would utilise the > tags on a relation which is bounding a lockdown area? Sounds more like a task for a routing engine that supports "avoid areas", e.g. ORS. With a little coding you could build a version of that that would always draw on the latest list of blocked areas without having to mirror day-to-day policy changes in OSM. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [Talk-at] Anpassung der Plattentektonik
Hallo, On 02.07.20 14:35, scubbx wrote: > Hui, peinlich! Gar nicht mal so - die Australier bei OSM denken inzwischen ernsthaft drüber nach, ob sie da was machen sollen. Deren Regierung gibt wohl demnächst neue, korrigierte Luftbilder raus und dann ist alles, was bisher bei OSM abgezeichnet wurde, ein bisserl falsch... Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [OSM-talk] Building a tile-server
Hi, On 7/1/20 22:18, Tom Browder wrote: > Yesterday I took my first try at using osm2pgsql on a pbm file and, > too late, I realized I didn't take full advantage of the server's > large RAM and multi-core capability. That's because the task is immensely disk intensive, and all the CPU and RAM sit there bored waiting for the disk to finish, no matter how many cores you try to utilize. If you want to import anything larger than a medium sized country, you will have to upgrade to a SSD or NVMe disk. > + should I dump all the tables created before I start anew? No, osm2pgsl will truncate them on import unless you explicitly ask for an "append". > + I have seen a couple of different postgresql config suggestions. Is > there a one-size fits all or should I tailor it more to my server's > configuration. Most configs you see will be for earlier Postgres versions and hence not necessarily valid for Pg 12. Switching off everything that has to do with "safe writing", e.g. fsync, certainly makes sense (you have to restart the import anyway if you suffer from power failure mid-way, no use in setting up Postgres to avoid data loss when writing). > My PostGIS is the latest Debian package version (version ?). osm2pgsql > is also a package (version ?). > > Should I compile those from source? Not necessary IMHO. > Of course any other advice is welcomed, especially as to which other > pieces are recommended downstream for the actual tile server. And I > would really like to have vector tiles, Vector tiles are produced with a wholly different toolchain, sometimes not even using osm2pgsql at all. Even if you have a toolchain that uses osm2pgsql, it might come with a specific style file it expects you to use on osm2pgsql import... > Oh, for the actual rendering: > > + prefer renderd or tirex? These are raster tile only. Personally I prefer tirex because I am one of its authors. I think it is superior to renderd in every aspect, except that renderd has the larger user base and hence it will be easier to find someone to help you when there's a problem. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Could/should editors detect/disallow huge changeset bboxes?
Hi,
On 12.06.20 15:22, Dave F via talk wrote:
> There is a lot of negativity about large changsets, but assessment of
> them should be based on quality, not quantity.
Yes, we're not discussing a popup that says "You dumbass, why did you
create a world-spanning changeset?" ;)
The way in which editors deal with that would likely differ; in JOSM it
might be a popup that says "are you sure?" and in ID it might be a
floating warning somewhere.
Your example of a world-wide spelling fix as an acceptable edit does not
agree with me; these edits often have unwanted side effects. See
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org ("if someone has described a 'horse' as a
'kow' correcting the spelling to 'cow' does not make the description
correct").
OSM is a project of local knowlege. World-spanning changesets compatible
with that idea are not impossible but rare; and erroneous or even
rule-violating changesets are much more frequent among world-spanning
changesets than among everyday small bbox changesets.
Bye
Frederik
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[OSM-talk] Could/should editors detect/disallow huge changeset bboxes?
Hi, I wonder if it would be feasible or desirable for editors to warn users if they are at risk of creating country/world-spanning changesets. Something like "you have unsaved edits more than 500km away from where you are editing at the moment, please upload those before you continue" or so. World-spanning changesets are a constant source of irritation, and very rarely intentional. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Toward resolution of controversies related to iD
Hi, On 2020-06-09 12:32, nd...@redhazel.co.uk wrote: > To me, OSMF wants the control of a project it hasn't developed but > turned out too successful to ignore, The iD editor has been originally built by Mapbox funded by a grant from the Knight Foundation with the aim of being a good editor for OSM. That was before any of the people currently driving iD development came on board. Had it been "some GIS editing software that might or might not be used for OSM one day", it is very unlikely that this grant would ever have been given. iD was never a project that would have been viable without the OSMF's blessing (as in "if you get this editor to work then we'll put it on our web site"). > and to add insult to injury you are > asking the author to keep working on it by committing patches he > disagrees with. As far as I am aware, both former and current iD lead developers are doing their work within a full time IT job, not in their spare time. Their employer - US tech firms in both cases - asks them to spend time on iD because their employer wants to help OSM improve. Most employment situations bring it with them that you have to do something you disagree with now and then. We do not know what instructions the paid iD developers receive from their employers but it is obvious that they *could* receive instructions. Now, of course as long as everything purrs along smoothly, good software is created for a happy user base by happy developers and nobody interferes, that's all dandy. But if push comes to shove, and someone needs to decide how something is done, do we want US tech firms to decide what the official OSM editor does, or do we want the OSMF to decide what the official OSM editor does? > - It's deeply unethical. OSMF should foster the development of the OSM > ecosystem, not harass people working on it. How does this fit OSMF own > charter and CoC? I think you have a very warped view of the whole topic. Given that I haven't seen you on these lists before I must assume that you haven't followed any of the history, background, and past discussions about the matter. You're of course entitled to your point of view but your point of view doesn't really do much for the discussion when it is, obviously, based on the mistaken assumption that iD is a third-party hobby project that OSMF now wants to nefariously take control of because it has proven successful. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Toward resolution of controversies related to iD
Hi, On 6/9/20 02:53, nd...@redhazel.co.uk wrote: > Basically, can you please explain why do you think you should be able to > influence decisions of the iD maintainer without forking the code, > maintaining it yourself and in the end competing with iD on a level > playing field. I think that we (the OSMF) give the independent iD project a huge platform by making it the default editor that people are sent to when they click "Edit" on our web page. (Would anyone go to a web site called "ideditor.com" to edit OSM?) It is obvious that this comes with responsibilities. To pick an extreme example just for the sake of argument, if iD were to display an advertising banner to generate revenue, or transmit the activities of OSM mappers to another web site for harvesting, that would force us to drop iD from our web page immediately, and with that, the iD project or at least the part that deals with OSM would vanish into oblivion. So there is a contract here: The iD team makes a good editor, and the OSMF defines the decision making envelope for the iD team - some things they can just do to their liking because they don't affect the "iD is the official OSM(F) default editor" status, but other decisions they might want to make are outside this envelope and OSM needs to be given a say. That is not meddling with their affairs or "crippling down a good tool", it is just a necessary sharing of responsibilities. > The success of iD > is a proof their vision for the tool development and its feature set are > working very well (perhaps too well, which is why we are having this > discussion). We are having this discussion because the assumption that if someone is a good programmer they will also be good with gauging the will of the OSM community has proven wrong; iD is a good editor but the iD team has too often treated the community with contempt (to the point of openly violating the code of conduct that the iD team had given themselves) and ignored valid concerns. The relationship hence cannot continue on trust alone. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Examples at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access
Hi, On 5/25/20 00:36, Arne Johannessen wrote: > The default motor_vehicle=* of Norwegian forest roads [1] by law [2] depends > on physical criteria such as tracktype=*, surface=*, smoothness=*, width=*. > The law makes this a judgement call in each and every case. [3] Same with cycling in forests in some parts of Germany, I think that legally it automatically becomes bicycle=no if width<2m but there's often discussions about just how much of the way needs to be <2m to make it off limits for cyclists. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
