Re: [Talk-transit] bus route/relations done right
On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.comwrote: Can I suggest we define some terms. A Line is all the journeys made using a particular reference (4, X13, Citi1 etc). Most people actually use the Route relation for this. This should include all the ways that are travelled on by the vehicle and all the stops that are called at. It might be helpful to add these stops in some sort of order (out then back) but it will not always be possible. A Line Variant (also know as a Service Variant) is a unique stopping pattern for a bunch of Journeys within a Line. (ie inbound, outbound, inbound via the school, outbound but stopping at the station and not going to the end of the route etc). This would include all the stops in order. however. I strongly suggest we don't add this data to OSM - it is too complex and not needed for mapping and should be kept in the schedules service. In particular, lets not start using the term Line to describe only a single direction (ie a variant) or we will get horribly confused. I think having the two directions in one relation is a recipe for confusion, because putting forward_stop as a role could refer to the direction of the bus service or the semi-arbitrary direction of the way. It's almost bound to be a mess. Whereas it's a lot clearer if the two directions are in separate relations. The only problem with splitting the two directions, as far as I can see, is editor support for having 2 x umpteen relations on a way. Richard ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] bus route/relations done right
Can I suggest we define some terms. A Line is all the journeys made using a particular reference (4, X13, Citi1 etc). [...] A Line Variant (also know as a Service Variant) is a unique stopping pattern for a bunch of Journeys within a Line. (ie inbound, outbound, inbound via the school, outbound but stopping at the station and not going to the end of the route etc). [...] I strongly suggest we don't add this data to OSM - it is too complex and not needed for mapping and should be kept in the schedules service. I strongly refuse that point of view. From the preceding discussion, I conclude that the paradigm of bus services varies very much between different countries. I don't know the situation in Great Britain, so I'm referring to the situation in Germany (in particular: Düsseldorf, Münster, Wuppertal), Switzerland, The Netherlands, Belgium and maybe other countries. In these places, most bus services have very few variants (in general two, one forth and one back) and timetables are very stable. For example, in Wuppertal more than 90 percent of all services have not changed even their timetable in the last 15 years. Thus, the timetable information has a similar complexity than the information about lines. The paradigm can be found under the name Integraler Taktfahrplan in German or Horaire cadencé in French. I have not found an English translation. Roughly, it would be Integrated fixed-interval timetables. On the other hand, there is no free timetable service in Germany or France. Thus, having the essential information (Where exist direct services? Which connections a designated and thus reliable for changing trains?) in OSM would be a great help. So I would suggest to encourage mappers to add timetable information whenever an integrated fixed-interval timetables exists. This might not apply to Great Britain, but I think we shouldn't take this as a reason to map Public Transport elsewhere worse than possible. Cheers, Roland ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] bus route/relations done right
On 17 Nov 2009, at 12:57, Roland Olbricht wrote: Can I suggest we define some terms. A Line is all the journeys made using a particular reference (4, X13, Citi1 etc). [...] A Line Variant (also know as a Service Variant) is a unique stopping pattern for a bunch of Journeys within a Line. (ie inbound, outbound, inbound via the school, outbound but stopping at the station and not going to the end of the route etc). [...] I strongly suggest we don't add this data to OSM - it is too complex and not needed for mapping and should be kept in the schedules service. I strongly refuse that point of view. From the preceding discussion, I conclude that the paradigm of bus services varies very much between different countries. I don't know the situation in Great Britain, so I'm referring to the situation in Germany (in particular: Düsseldorf, Münster, Wuppertal), Switzerland, The Netherlands, Belgium and maybe other countries. In these places, most bus services have very few variants (in general two, one forth and one back) and timetables are very stable. For example, in Wuppertal more than 90 percent of all services have not changed even their timetable in the last 15 years. Thus, the timetable information has a similar complexity than the information about lines. The paradigm can be found under the name Integraler Taktfahrplan in German or Horaire cadencé in French. I have not found an English translation. Roughly, it would be Integrated fixed-interval timetables. On the other hand, there is no free timetable service in Germany or France. Thus, having the essential information (Where exist direct services? Which connections a designated and thus reliable for changing trains?) in OSM would be a great help. So I would suggest to encourage mappers to add timetable information whenever an integrated fixed-interval timetables exists. This might not apply to Great Britain, but I think we shouldn't take this as a reason to map Public Transport elsewhere worse than possible. I think I was making two separate points. 1) That a Line and a Line Variant are different concepts and we should use them consistently. 2) That in my opinion it would be sensible to stop at Lines and not integrate more detail. If we agree on 1) then we can allow people to make personal judgements about 2) for their areas. Regards, Peter Cheers, Roland ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] bus route/relations done right
2009/11/14 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com On 13 Nov 2009, at 18:59, Jozef Riha wrote: hello all, i posted the latter text into t...@osm today but then someone suggested i should better ask here. so, the post goes like this: thank you for your understanding, joe -- begin -- hello all, i'd like to review/finish mapping of bus/tram network during my stay in bern (ch) and do this right so that no time is wasted fixing my mistakes. i read through wiki pages but there're still some points open. for my examples to be more explanatory please open the following osm file which i'll be referring to. the download url is http://nic-nac-project.org/~jose1711/donotdelete/bus_route.osmhttp://nic-nac-project.org/%7Ejose1711/donotdelete/bus_route.osm i consider bus 1 route to be the correct way of entering a simple route. backward/forward rules are based on the way's orientation, not Terminus A - Terminus B or vice versa orientation just as the wiki says. what to do though when it's not really clear what way does the bus stop belong to like in bus route 2? how do i know if it's forward or backward role i should use when i don't know to which way the bus stop is connected. consider that i may not be able to change orientation (situation: oneway for cars, buses can drive both directions). also, does the ways (segments) in relation need to be ordered or this is mandatory for bus stops only? Welcome! I will answer from my perspective (note that I haven't opened your OSM file as I lack the skills to deal with it) Ways can be added to the relation in any order. Ways that are only used in one direction should be added with a role of 'forwards' or 'backwards' as appropriate in relation to the way on which vehicles run along the way. Note that the correct terms (or at least the ones specified in the wiki, and those I use) are forward and backward. No s. If vehicles run in both directions for the route then leave the role blank. If they only run in the same direction that the way is oriented then the role should be 'forwards'. If it goes the other way it should be backwards. Personally I normally turn ways around if possible so that the buses go 'forwards' where possible for convenience - As you say, you have to be careful about doing this and should avoid turning ways round it if there are any orientation-specific tags on the way such as one-way and that it when you use backwards. There is a proposal for contraflow bus lanes somewhere that helps here. I think it's that the tagging for the way should include bus=opposite_lane (like for some ways, we have bicycle=opposite_lane). Even without using this, you can still indicate that buses go both ways along a one-way street by adding the bus route relation without a role specified. Unfortunately, some editors have added route relations and assumed that if a street is one-way, and buses/trams/whatever only travel the same way as normal traffic, then forward is not required. It is! I have not been adding bus stops to the routes, however it is not really possibly to add the stops 'in order' since there are likely to be a number of different variants for the route (in both directions, short running and deviations off the main route for special reasons - market days, end of school day etc). I suggest that they can be added in any order. I personally prefer to add stops in the order that they are served for the majority of services on that route. For example: I am trying (with anyone who wants to help) to get all the public transport on the Isle of Wight correctly mapped out, and keeping track of progress on this wiki pagehttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport_on_the_Isle_of_Wight. Now bus route 7 is a bit complex, effectively it's 3 different routes cobbled together, so I created 3 relations (1 for each version). To these I added the ways in no particular order, then the stops from origin to destination, and then the stops on the opposite side of the road going back the other way. Adding stops like this keeps them in order when displayed in a list (eg: 7 via Brighstone on öpnvkartehttp://%C3%B6pnvkarte.de/route.php?name=7%20via%20Brighstoneid=311757, on relation browser http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/311757, whole route on öpnvkartehttp://%C3%B6pnvkarte.de/?zoom=12lat=50.66932lon=-1.43099layers=BT). There are sporadic proposals to make this more logical, such as by adding an increasing count to each stop for any particular route, but nothing concrete at the moment. Note that nodes which are not part of a way (eg:most bus stops) need the forward_stop/backward_stop to refer to the bus direction, not the direction of the associated way. öpnvkarte seems to think nodes that *are*part of ways (eg: rail stations) also have to be tagged like this. The wiki says this is incorrect, but I'm unclear how authoritative that is. Thankfully the problem doesn't
[Talk-transit] bus route/relations done right
hello all, i posted the latter text into t...@osm today but then someone suggested i should better ask here. so, the post goes like this: thank you for your understanding, joe -- begin -- hello all, i'd like to review/finish mapping of bus/tram network during my stay in bern (ch) and do this right so that no time is wasted fixing my mistakes. i read through wiki pages but there're still some points open. for my examples to be more explanatory please open the following osm file which i'll be referring to. the download url is http://nic-nac-project.org/~jose1711/donotdelete/bus_route.osm i consider bus 1 route to be the correct way of entering a simple route. backward/forward rules are based on the way's orientation, not Terminus A - Terminus B or vice versa orientation just as the wiki says. what to do though when it's not really clear what way does the bus stop belong to like in bus route 2? how do i know if it's forward or backward role i should use when i don't know to which way the bus stop is connected. consider that i may not be able to change orientation (situation: oneway for cars, buses can drive both directions). also, does the ways (segments) in relation need to be ordered or this is mandatory for bus stops only? next thing. i have seen many osm users create bus routes such as route 4, while i think the correct way is route 3. am i correct? thank you for your comments, jozef -- end -- ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
