2013/6/17 Anthony o...@inbox.org
It's not about mapping the sign, it's about mapping the neighborhood based
on the sign.
We don't map speed limit signs, we map the speed limits on the roads based
on the signs.
where do you get this from? We are indeed mapping speed limits signs
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Nathan Mills nat...@nwacg.net wrote:
The sort of signs in the link below are precisely the sort of thing we put
in OSM, or at least have historically.
https://www.cityoftulsa.org/**community-programs/**
In Nashville, TN, where I live, most of the city's growth has been since World
War II, and hence suburban in nature. Some subdivisions have permanent signs,
some don't. Some have a discernable tree structure, some have a loose grid, a
few areas have a rectilinear grid. Plus, some areas
On 2013-06-15 6:51 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote:
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:35 PM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote:
For the former, I don't need a painted line on the ground, just what the
City GIS department publishes on the open Internet, after these
lines/polygons/neighborhood
On 2013-06-15 6:51 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote:
There is a growing number of OSM folks in the United States (myself
included) who believe that government provided boundry data should be
used for data products such as rendered maps and geocoders, but do not
belong in OSM's core dataset (which
It's not about mapping the sign, it's about mapping the neighborhood based
on the sign.
We don't map speed limit signs, we map the speed limits on the roads based
on the signs. We don't map interstate signs, we map the name of the
interstate. We don't map individual trees, we map forests. We
What a fantastic post! I am a neighborhood guru, as mapping subdivisions is
part of my job description at Baltimore County Government. i have several
years experience mapping neighborhoods in the legal sense in an ESRI GIS
environment, and have translated some of that to OSM in my spare time. When
On 15/giu/2013, at 21:16, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:
What are you using to verify your neighborhood boundaries? Is there literally
a line on the pavement showing the boundaries?
the boundaries of settlements and parts of them often follow natural and or man
made limits
On 2013-06-15 6:51 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote:
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:35 PM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote:
For the former, I don't need a painted line on the ground, just what the
City GIS department publishes on the open Internet, after these
lines/polygons/neighborhood
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 2:22 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
wrote:
2013/6/14 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com
The OSM node could even link to a wiki page where the neighborhood can be
described in all its richness and complexity.
you could do this with wikipedia links.
I wonder if it time to accept that we are unable to reach a consensus. Can
we agree to let the local community decide which way to proceed? They are
in the best position to know the issues surrounding neighborhood borders.
There didn't seem to be any show-stoppers in the arguments for
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:27 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.uswrote:
I wonder if it time to accept that we are unable to reach a consensus. Can
we agree to let the local community decide which way to proceed? They are
in the best position to know the issues surrounding neighborhood
Your entire argument is based on the premise that neighborhood boundaries are
subjective and unverifiable, and while that may be true for your neighborhood
it is not true for mine. So why shouldn't I map what I can easily verify on the
ground?
Bryce
On Jun 15, 2013, at 7:54 AM, Serge
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Bryce Cogswell bryc...@yahoo.com wrote:
Your entire argument is based on the premise that neighborhood boundaries
are subjective and unverifiable, and while that may be true for your
neighborhood it is not true for mine. So why shouldn't I map what I can
My city kindly places identification signs along the borders of many of the
defined neighborhoods. Other neighborhoods are coterminous with a particular
subdivision.
Still others like midtown are mean whatever the person saying it wants it to
mean.
The former are reasonable to map. The latter
Bryce Cogswell writes:
Your entire argument is based on the premise that neighborhood
boundaries are subjective and unverifiable, and while that may be
true for your neighborhood it is not true for mine. So why shouldn't
I map what I can easily verify on the ground?
+1: this is true for me
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 3:35 PM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote:
+1: this is true for me as well, so I agree. Well, it is verifiable by
what our local government says (through the consensus of public process,
like City Council meetings) via polygons, AND by the more vaguely-defined
2013/6/14 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com
The OSM node could even link to a wiki page where the neighborhood can be
described in all its richness and complexity.
you could do this with wikipedia links. My usecase would be to enter an
address in a search field and get information about the
David Blackman and Nathaniel Kelso et al. have worked tirelessly on
building tools to make border polygons and tools around them. Let's
use those tools for this sort of stuff and use the resulting shapes
when rendering OSM data.
I'm not familiar with these people or the tools you mention.
I missed the quattroshapes talk, and did not get to talk to Aaron about you
are here. I am now convinced (and also excited) that there's better ways to
do this than duplicating this effort in OSM.
On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Eric Brelsford ebrelsf...@gmail.comwrote:
* quattroshapes
The reasons *not* to use the Zillow dataset are clear: nobody but zillow
can edit it, and it is based on low quality TIGER data.
The flickr dataset is similarly suspect, if this is any indication:
http://boundaries.tomtaylor.co.uk/#23512042
It shows San Francisco's *SoMA* (South of Market)
Am 12.06.2013 um 03:06 schrieb Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us:
One reason for including boundaries is querying to determine what exists in a
neighborhood. Another is to see the result from a search using nominatim. A
single node doesn't really tell much of a story, while a boundary
Am 12.06.2013 um 06:21 schrieb Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com:
Your reply really doesn't address what William is saying, which is
that neighbourhood boundaries are subjective. I think we all agree
that neighbourhoods are useful, but they're worse than political
boundaries in terms of
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:
Your reply really doesn't address what William is saying, which is
that neighbourhood boundaries are subjective. I think we all agree
that neighbourhoods are useful, but they're worse than political
boundaries in terms
I agree with the advantage of polygons when performing queries of the type
'show me all bakeries in this neighborhood'. This will however only work if
that neighborhood is clearly defined in terms of boundaries. If we agree
that this is not the case, we are just going to be creating confusion and
Interesting discussion, I've been working at thinking how to approach doing
this in my hometown of Tempe, AZ
http://www.tempe.gov/index.aspx?page=792
They classify neighborhoods two ways, homeowners associations (the classic
HOA) and neighborhood associations. The former is usually set up by
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:
Could we use either Geonames or Zillow to drive improvement to
neighborhood name coverage in OSM?
Using Zillow wouldn't be an improvement. Where I live, Zillow has the same
incorrect information as the TIGER CDP (which I
Martijn writes:
I agree with the advantage of polygons when performing queries of
the type 'show me all bakeries in this neighborhood'. This will
however only work if that neighborhood is clearly defined in terms
of boundaries. If we agree that this is not the case, we are just
going to be
2013/6/12 stevea stevea...@softworkers.com
Is Jane Street (NYC) in Chelsea or Greenwich Village? Well, kind of
both. This is where nodes work better.
well, they could also overlap (so you could see from the polygons that
there is a certain area which somehow belongs to both neighbourhoods
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote:
I agree that most neighborhood boundaries are subjective. Of the cities I've
lived in, some neighborhoods are clearly define, usually by natural or man
made artifacts, others are definitely fluid. When importing
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:
The answer to #1 is Yes, neighborhood data is useful.
The answer to #2 is No, for the reasons outlined.
These are *your* answer these questions. I disagree with your conclusion on
#2, for reasons outlined.
--
I support this. Go to Google Maps and search for SoMa, South Beach, and
Rincon Hill. The office I am sitting in right now is in all of those
polygons.
Some cities formally define their neighborhoods, and OSM could use that
data. Some neighborhoods are more informal, and those may make sense as
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:
These are *your* answer these questions. I disagree with your conclusion on
#2, for reasons outlined.
Let's not get personal here...
I don't see how any of the discussions here have addressed some basic
questions, so
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:
1. How can someone survey a neighborhood? It seems that in many cases,
neighborhoods are subjective, and people may disagree on where it is,
and both be right. How does your proposal address this issue?
It's the same
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:
These are *your* answer these questions. I disagree with your conclusion
on
#2, for reasons outlined.
Let's not get personal here...
Hiya,
OSM has pretty poor neighborhood coverage in the US. We have around 1100
place=neighbo[u]rhood. Geonames has ten times that at 11,000 (feature class
P.PPLX - not sure if all of those are neighborhoods) and Zillow has 7,000.
Both these data sets are provided under (different) CC licenses.
On 6/11/2013 2:58 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
OSM has pretty poor neighborhood coverage in the US. We have around 1100
place=neighbo[u]rhood. Geonames has ten times that at 11,000 (feature
class P.PPLX - not sure if all of those are neighborhoods) and Zillow
has 7,000.
The TIGER import
On 11/giu/2013, at 21:07, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote:
Often, I can't determine the subdivision boundary from either Bing or a
survey; I'd need to see an organization map which would be of questionable
license.
or ask the people that live there, would that be feasible?
cheers,
Martin
Note that, if not all of the subdivision has been developed as yet, the
residents may not be entirely sure where the undeveloped subdivision land ends
and other, adjoining, undeveloped land begins, so you might need to check with
the company that is developing the subdivision.
Martin
That's basically what I am proposing.
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
wrote:
On 11/giu/2013, at 21:07, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote:
Often, I can't determine the subdivision boundary from either Bing or a
survey; I'd need to see an
I think this is a problem more people have. In the GNIS import for
populated places, a lot of apartment buildings and trailer parks are
grouped together with 'real' populated places while they are really
separate things for all intents and purposes. But that may also have a lot
to do with lack of
11, 2013 12:58 PM
To: OSM US Talk
Subject: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow
Hiya,
OSM has pretty poor neighborhood coverage in the US. We have around 1100
place=neighbo[u]rhood. Geonames has ten times that at 11,000 (feature class
P.PPLX - not sure if all of those are neighborhoods) and Zillow
My house is technically in a subdivision named Murray Heights, but I have only
seen that name on the deed, and on maps. In the 21 years I have lived here, I
have never heard anyone use that name. The subdivision was built in the late
1950s, and, unlike some other local subdivisions, there
.
** **
=Russ
russdeffner on OSM
** **
*From:* Martijn van Exel [mailto:m...@rtijn.org]
*Sent:* Tuesday, June 11, 2013 12:58 PM
*To:* OSM US Talk
*Subject:* [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow
** **
Hiya,
** **
OSM has pretty poor neighborhood coverage in the US. We have around
Yea, I think this is where sources like Geonames and Zillow, which are
built (to an extent) based on actual perceived names rather than official
ones, could be so valuable - and why GNIS populated places are detrimental
to OSM map quality, at least in many urban areas.
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at
: OSM US Talk
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow
Russ -- Yes, MR2 will have the ability to work on a specific location (likely
to be specified as a point + radius, or bbox).
What do you mean by correlating place values, correlating with what?
Rural areas are not as important
As for Bryce's observation - Zillow does not have overlapping polygons as
far as I know, so it is by its nature sort of rigid - but then again this
is probably what they require for their use case, as there would be no way
to disambiguate.
Interesting in this context is the much-quoted example of
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:
As for Bryce's observation - Zillow does not have overlapping polygons as
far as I know, so it is by its nature sort of rigid - but then again this
is probably what they require for their use case, as there would be no way
I think point features are definitely the way to go here - areas are nice
but have the drawback of being to rigid a delineation, as well as being
more difficult to map and maintain.
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 1:05 PM,
' as someone raised in this thread.
Mark
From: Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org
To: Russell Deffner russ...@russelldeffnerconsulting.com
Cc: OSM US Talk talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow
I'm also in favor of using points for neighborhoods. Exact boundaries are
extremely subjective in some places. In places where they actually are
well-defined perhaps they are also different conceptually?
For example, in NYC we have fuzzy neighborhoods, of course, but we also
have community board
OSM has pretty poor neighborhood coverage in the
US. We have around 1100 place=neighbo[u]rhood.
Geonames has ten times that at 11,000 (feature
class P.PPLX - not sure if all of those are
neighborhoods) and Zillow has 7,000. Both these
data sets are provided under (different) CC
licenses.
But how would such a thing be tagged?
For instance, here in Portland, we have defined neighborhoods, which have
neighborhood associations, and a city bureau (the Office of Neighborhood
Involvement) dedicated to working with those organizations. They are, in a very
real, if not technically
Nathaniel Kelso David Blackman's presentation at #sotmus on Quattroshapes
might offer some guidance, at least with respect to a method. They used
Foursquare checkins and geotagged Flickr photos to calculate some
boundaries. Now, I am more likely to check in at Arlington (my city) than I
am in
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:
OSM has pretty poor neighborhood coverage in the US. We have around 1100
place=neighbo[u]rhood. Geonames has ten times that at 11,000 (feature class
P.PPLX - not sure if all of those are neighborhoods) and Zillow has
One last thought. nextdoor.com is attempting to build on the concept of
neighborhoods. I wonder if we could partner with them to get more help
identifying their neighborhoods. Similar to Steve Coast's app that asked
people to pick the front door of a house. Imagine if we had a bunch of
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.orgwrote:
You'd end up with this:
http://bostonography.com/images/misc/neighborhoods_labeled.jpg
Discussed here:
http://bostonography.com/2012/wanted-your-map-of-boston-neighborhoods/
True. I suppose part of it is wanting
Martin,
In many Los Angeles neighborhoods, asking residents is not
feasible. Most are in cars, not walking. Some people wouldn't talk
to you, and many wouldn't know, given the transient nature of some
neighborhoods.
On the other hand, the City of Los Angeles has been
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:
Hiya,
I am not proposing an import, but a local MapRoulette
challenge might work where people with local knowledge accept / reject
proposed neighborhood points, or something along those lines.
I think neighborhoods are
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.orgwrote:
But how would such a thing be tagged?
By boundary, what's the next level below city?
For instance, here in Portland, we have defined neighborhoods, which have
neighborhood associations, and a city bureau (the Office
I'm really intrigued by this conversation.
Neighborhood identity is subjective - collectively defined by residents and
stakeholders (businesses, and other organizations) within and outside of
the neighborhood as well as governments, politicians, and the media.
Nonetheless, I believe they belong
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 5:47 PM, william skora skorasau...@gmail.comwrote:
Given the subjective, fluid nature of neighborhoods - especially
boundaries - where one neighborhood ends and one begins - may change from
person to person, they are best represented as a single node in the area
where
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 19:38:29 -0500
From: Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org
To: Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.org
Cc: Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org, OpenStreetMap Talk-US Mailing List
talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow
Message-ID
stevea,
Great work that you've done in your area with the neighborhood classification.
I would just caution that deriving Neighborhood boundaries solely
from the governments could be problematic because they don't
represent the other stakeholders (mentioned earlier) and in the case
of
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