On Fri May 31 23:48:45 UTC 2013, Paul Norman penorman at mac.com wrote:
The full text of the DWG recommendation to the board is available at
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/File:DWG_NE2_Turn_Restriction_dispute.pdf
but the executive summary is as follows:
I missed this thread until now, so
On 6/12/2013 7:53 AM, Josh Doe wrote:
I'm
disappointed that the above recommendation didn't acknowledge that NE2
has done good work. I would say that on the whole his contributions in
terms of data are definitely a net positive, including a great deal of
geometry improvement, addition of new
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 08:34:18 -0400
From: nice...@att.net
To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute, NE2
On 6/12/2013 7:53 AM, Josh Doe wrote:
I'm
disappointed that the above recommendation didn't acknowledge that NE2
has done good work. I would
Well, on the flip side, there's also been some serious damage from torquing
the primary and trunk tags on an indiscriminate nationwide basis that's
still in the process of being fixed two years later.
On Jun 12, 2013 8:49 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
wrote:
I had some positive
After a delay the DWG and OSMF have reached conclusions on the case
involving a turn restriction dispute between Paul Johnson and NE2 that was
referred to it by Paul Johnson, NE2, and multiple other members of the
community. This decision took an extended amount of time due to the
investigation
Dave Hansen wrote:
I know the current turn restriction relations aren't suited for it.
But, instead of tagging left turn restriction from X to Y shouldn't we
be tagging the pavement has an arrow that says left turn only?
See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn
Alexander
It may be that what is happening is that NE2 is deliberately trying to
start an edit war so that he will be allowed back onto this list to discuss
it.
If, as seems to be the case, the bulk of his edits are destructive and need
to be reverted, then the sensible thing to do may be to put an auto
After viewing the satellite imagery for this intersection, it is clear to
me that the turn testifying should be in place. Were the same intersection
in Georgia, a driver going straight across could be charged with Failure
to obey a traffic control device (with the traffic control devices in
On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 6:09 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/14989711
NE2 has ignored the discussion intentionally and reverted against
consensus.
You can't
FYI, an official ruling from Mouseland. This email stuff is pretty cool,
one can actually directly ask somebody who is a Subject Matter Expert! ;-)
Michael
-- Forwarded message --
From: FHP f...@flhsmv.gov
Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 8:08 AM
Subject: RE: Legal Intersection
On 02/11/2013 08:34 AM, Michael Patrick wrote:
FYI, an official ruling from Mouseland. This email stuff is pretty cool,
one can actually directly ask somebody who is a Subject Matter Expert! ;-)
While I admire the resourcefulness, I do question whether we're doing
the right thing if we are
Dave Hansen d...@sr71.net wrote:
On 02/11/2013 08:34 AM, Michael Patrick wrote:
FYI, an official ruling from Mouseland. This email stuff is pretty
cool,
one can actually directly ask somebody who is a Subject Matter
Expert! ;-)
While I admire the resourcefulness, I do question whether
So can we revert NE2's revert from last night?
On Feb 11, 2013 10:35 AM, Michael Patrick geodes...@gmail.com wrote:
FYI, an official ruling from Mouseland. This email stuff is pretty cool,
one can actually directly ask somebody who is a Subject Matter Expert! ;-)
Michael
--
I think it's a little ridiculous that this dispute is going so far that
anyone even consulted an expert. Obviously NE2 is wrong; we get it. This
dead horse hasn't just been beaten; it's been liquefied. Let's just let the
OSM gods deal with it, and go on with our lives.
On Feb 11, 2013 10:35 AM,
If it wasn't this dispute then it would have been another. At least now
there's a precedent set for ground truth and following the local laws. One of
the premises of OSM is that crowd-sourcing and local knowledge improves the
quality of the maps, I think this conversation and eventual legal
there is a precedent.
mk408. He was active mainly in one area only. after some edit war and
unwilling to discuss with others he got blocked by DWG and then left for
good.
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 5:56 AM, Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote:
I don't agree. NE2’s edits, most of all the route
Without wading too deeply into the personalities here, there's a
danger inherent to having rules that you will have people who think
they're being very clever by trying to repeatedly bump up against them
in ways that may respect the letter of the rules but not their
underlying spirit. For
Out of curiosity, is asking someone to leave the project something that we
have done before? I'm wondering what kind of precedents we've set for
ourself. I am only vaguely familiar with the circumstances around this user
being removed from the list, so I'm curious about the decision to ban
someone
I don't agree. NE2’s edits, most of all the route relations, are enormously
valuable to OSM in the US. I'm not aware of any precedent for banning a user
like this, and I'm not eager to see one set.
-mike.
---
michal migurski http://mike.teczno.com
On Feb
On 2/10/13 8:56 AM, Michal Migurski wrote:
I don't agree. NE2’s edits, most of all the route relations, are enormously
valuable to OSM in the US. I'm not aware of any precedent for banning a user
like this, and I'm not eager to see one set.
i'm with mike. while i, like many, have butted heads
This issue has come up before and the problem is that it falls
through the cracks of OSM's governing bodies.
The DWG often handles issues of vandalism or copyright violation, but
NE2's edits are neither obvious vandalism, nor direct copyright
violations as far as anyone can tell.
But this type
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote:
I don't agree. NE2’s edits, most of all the route relations, are enormously
valuable to OSM in the US. I'm not aware of any precedent for banning a user
like this, and I'm not eager to see one set.
Mike,
Your
I'm familiar with his work and have run afoul of his views in the past, most
recently when I performed a large scale edit to US route relation tags, some of
which he did not agree with. I don't know if any were reverted. Nevertheless, I
don't see the value in running him out on a rail without
+ 4 to what Mike said. What is the precedent from other bans? Is there a
wiki page of bannination?
Randy
Randal Hale, GISP
North River Geographic Systems, Inc
http://www.northrivergeographic.com
423.653.3611 rjh...@northrivergeographic.com
twitter:rjhale
http://about.me/rjhale
On 02/10/2013
I would suggest inviting him back on the mailing lists, with the
knowledge that being banned from the mailing lists means being banned
from OSM.
This situation where he is allowed to edit, but he isn't allowed to
join the mailing lists to discuss his edits, is an utter failure.
On Sun, Feb 10,
Michal Migurski writes:
I'm familiar with his work and have run afoul of his views in the
past, most recently when I performed a large scale edit to US route
relation tags, some of which he did not agree with. I don't know if
any were reverted. Nevertheless, I don't see the value in
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 11:32 AM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
His malice is encapsulated in his inability to work with other
people.
Furthermore, he makes mass edits. There are not edits that one can
accomplish simply by hand. He is doing many thousands of edits, and we
have evidence
Hi all,
This thread is getting unproductive and crossing into personal attacks.
Please consider if talk-us is the best place to talk about one person
behind essentially behind their back.
If you feel there's a problem with a particular mapper please contact the
mapper and the Data Working Group
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:
Your information on NE2 is grossly inaccurate.
NE2 makes very few positive edits, and many, many destructive ones, as
well as previous threats to make more edits that conform with his (and
only his) vision of the
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
His malice is encapsulated in his inability to work with other
people. For example, I dislike a particular global modification to my
work that he has made. I know that he has more spare time than me to
pursue his ideas,
On 2/10/2013 10:32 AM, Russ Nelson wrote:
So I have resigned myself to allowing OSM to be a little bit worse
because of him. How many other people have made the same decision? How
much worse is OSM because of NE2? Does this outweigh his positive
accomplishments?
I don't think I'm the only
NE2 asked me to share this diary entry with the list:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/NE2/diary/18600
richard
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
So he's conveniently ignoring the left turn only arrow there preventing a
straight-on movement?
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.netwrote:
NE2 asked me to share this diary entry with the list:
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 15:51:43 -0500
From: dygitulju...@gmail.com
To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute
At the risk of sounding like I'm defending NE2, one of Ian's points is that
NE2 is banned from the list and that discussing this, here, does
On 2/10/2013 6:12 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:
So he's conveniently ignoring the left turn only arrow there preventing
a straight-on movement?
I would just observe that the red line can be seen as a large version
of the white left turn arrow above it.(Other than that, no opinion).
Richard Welty writes:
NE2 asked me to share this diary entry with the list:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/NE2/diary/18600
That's interesting, but I'll note three things:
o the tire tracks with one exception turn left, and
o the one set of tire tracks that goes
, it seems that's a popular moment to
go straight there from ramp to ramp. There are several tire marks proving
people do it a lot.
--James
--
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 17:12:15 -0600
From: ba...@ursamundi.org
To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Turn
I think that what he would say to the judge, when defending his
traffic ticket in court, was that he *did* make a left ... and then a
quick right. Since at no time did he move against the flow of traffic,
he might prevail. There's a traffic light at that intersection, so it
seems safe enough, if a
Looking through the making turns section of the Florida driver's manual,
the maneuver NE2 proposes and the argument you're giving to explain it
still doesn't work. You turn into the corresponding lane after a turn in
Florida, no lane changes permitted in the intersection. You can only turn
left
The same one. It also says to look at the diagram for examples, and shows
turns into the nearest available lane.
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 6:09 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
Heh, by the way, I just looked at the 2012 Florida Driver's Handbook
(page 32). It explicitly says A left turn may
On Sun, 2013-02-10 at 18:22 -0500, Russ Nelson wrote:
The point behind turn restrictions is that a routing algorithm is
going to be looking for them to create a route.
And I think this is enough reason that the turn restriction should stay;
I wouldn't want directions to include it and I doubt
Yes, because it also says not to change lanes. Also, it says you can only
cross a solid lane line to avoid a hazard. I'm seeing more ways to
interpret what's going on as not allowing the ramp-to-ramp movement than
those allowing it to the point where you'd pretty much have to be making
the
For the sake of the strength of the project, for the sake of due process,
and for the sake of being able to defend any sort of ban or other action,
NE2 must have his day in court. He (and those that may defend him) must
be able to speak their minds. On the other hand, those the present
situation
Paul Johnson writes:
Looking through the making turns section of the Florida driver's manual,
the maneuver NE2 proposes and the argument you're giving to explain it
still doesn't work.
Mercy, Jesus, Mary, Mother of God!! I can't believe we're arguing the
minutia of Florida traffic law here!
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
Put the turn restriction back in. And NE2, if you're reading this?
Leave it there.
Done.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Wait, what? It's clearly part of the same intersection.
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 7:53 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 8:43 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
Put the turn
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/14989711
NE2 has ignored the discussion intentionally and reverted against consensus.
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
Put the turn
A minor update, since NE2 refuses to handle this as a community:
Me: I'm no longer accepting input on this outside of the mailing list. If
you want to have any further opinion on this, post to the thread in
talk-us.
NE2: You know I can't do that. By refusing to discuss you forfeit.
Me: I'm not
He's banned from (at least) this list. Consequently, you cannot expect
him to discuss this issue here.
We had a discussion of whether to ban him from editing in the past,
which never really got resolved. It just died out. Yes, he's done a
lot of editing, and yes, some of his edits have been
If that really is the case and he's not welcome to participate in the list,
then I agree, it's time for him to find another hobby. Seconded.
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 8:10 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
He's banned from (at least) this list. Consequently, you cannot expect
him to
Russ, I second your vote/motion, not that anybody called for a
second, or even that I am able to offer it. What I AM able to do is
be civil and use the talk-us list, as it is our nationwide forum
to discuss. There are plenty of other consensus understandings
that might be loosely called
You. You have the ground truth. He has no right deleting useful data from
OSM.
I think it's a general rule that when NE2 fights with other OSM
contributors, he loses.
On Feb 8, 2013 2:59 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
NE2 is going on the World according to NE2 bender again, need a
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
NE2 is going on the World according to NE2 bender again, need a ruling
on this relation before I revert:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2249811
Turn in question is southbound World Drive at Buena Vista
Good point, though was hoping someone in the Orlando area other than NE2
could weigh in (since this is a rare example of me chasing a Mapdust bug
out to his area).
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Apollinaris Schöll ascho...@gmail.comwrote:
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Paul Johnson
I looked a bit more and in many jurisdiction it's illegal anyway to go
around a traffic jam by exiting a freeway and go back direct on the next
onramp. Even more reason to have a restriction. Tested Google maps and it
will make a big detour to avoid this illegal straight on.
On Fri, Feb 8,
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