Re: [Talk-us] Beach routing
On 07/09/2014 12:50 PM, Elliott Plack wrote: OSM US: I've been using some routing engines to map fitness routes (e.g. Strava) that use OSM data. Along our US coasts, there are beaches. The beaches I'm familiar with are popular with walkers and joggers to go up and down the shore, since access is generally open to anyone along the water's edge. I'm considering adding a `highway=path` along the beach to facilitate this. I'd add the connections to the walking paths between parking lots and the beach as well. For uninterrupted strips of sandy beach, would a path be appropriate to indicate walkability? How the map looks now in iD: http://i.imgur.com/2EQ06BR.jpg What I'd propose to do (note the connections): http://i.imgur.com/i8dj6lQ.jpg Area of the examples: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/38.45143/-75.04957 Thanks, Contrary to the other replies, why not just teach the routers that beaches are something that can be walked (or ridden or driven) on? Access restrictions can go on the beach itself, with bicycle tags if it's explicitly forbidden. There's no documented default value of surface for a beach, but sand is probably a decent guess. The beach can already be tagged with fee=*. Paths can connect to the beach area. All of this is already set and available for use by routers. If you add a separate path, a router can't know whether it needs to apply the fee from the surrounding beach or not. If you also tag fee on the path, a user won't know whether having paid the fee for the beach also entitles them use of the path, or whether they can pay just for walking rights and not swimming. Surface needs to get tagged multiple times, as do any access restrictions. And in the end, it's really just not a path anyway. That said, I understand the appeal of just making things work now, and I wouldn't be too beat up about it if paths do get added. --Andrew ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Beach routing
Isn't this all a little bit like mapping for the renderer? (Mapping for the router?) If paths don't exist, should they really be created? If people feel that they should be created, maybe there is a need for a new tag for 'highway connectors', kind of like the flow connectors used in the NHD stream data. They would exist in the database and show up in the editors, but would not be drawn by style sheets used by people who only want to render real roads/paths/etc. Routers could be trained to use these ways in combination with real tracks. This seems more like a router issue, not a data issue. Routing across areas may just require a router that can handle areas. I remember an example of this in an online app, but can't find the link anymore. David. On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jim McAndrew j...@loc8.us wrote: I think this would be a great addition for routing. I would make sure that you add tags like bicycle=no, even though bicycles are probably not forbidden, bicycles and sand generally do not mix. ( http://www.njbikemap.com/ omits dirt roads in southern jersey for this reason) Another consideration is that outside of Atlantic City and Wildwood, most beaches require a beach tags/badges to use the beach. I'm not sure what the best way to tag these areas would be, but it would be important for routing people who are not familiar with the area. -- Jim On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 7:15 AM, Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.com wrote: A few years ago, I mapped beach access paths, too: http://ow.ly/yZT3G But I did not map along the beach as there was no clearly defined path or boardwalk, nor could I see a compelling case for doing so. I can see a reason if driving, horses, bikes compete for access, or there are areas that permit/restrict access to the beach. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 There are two types of people in the world. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete data. On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote: I say go ahead and add it, though `highway=track` (with appropriate access tag) might make more sense if vehicles drive along the beach. Here in NJ, people have also been mapping the paths that lead down to the beach from the boardwalks, but they generally aren’t connected. I’m a runner, so I would find it useful to know which stretches of beach are passable and what the surface is like. Thanks, Bryan On Jul 9, 2014, at 12:50 PM, Elliott Plack elliott.pl...@gmail.com wrote: OSM US: I've been using some routing engines to map fitness routes (e.g. Strava) that use OSM data. Along our US coasts, there are beaches. The beaches I'm familiar with are popular with walkers and joggers to go up and down the shore, since access is generally open to anyone along the water's edge. I'm considering adding a `highway=path` along the beach to facilitate this. I'd add the connections to the walking paths between parking lots and the beach as well. For uninterrupted strips of sandy beach, would a path be appropriate to indicate walkability? How the map looks now in iD: http://i.imgur.com/2EQ06BR.jpg What I'd propose to do (note the connections): http://i.imgur.com/i8dj6lQ.jpg Area of the examples: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/38.45143/-75.04957 Thanks, -- Elliott Plack http://about.me/elliottp ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Beach routing
I thought about this, but not all beaches are navigable. Some really are pretty treacherous, and I don’t think this is always easy to tell from aerial imagery. I have also been to perfectly navigable beaches where you are specifically not allowed to use vehicles because turtles build their nests there. I think it is safer to assume that a beach should not be used for navigation unless it’s explicitly tagged for it (and I think a path or track is the most straightforward way of tagging this). On Jul 11, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Andrew Guertin andrew.guer...@uvm.edu wrote: Contrary to the other replies, why not just teach the routers that beaches are something that can be walked (or ridden or driven) on? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Beach routing
It seems like using the access tags solves the second issue. The first one I'm less sure about, and it will vary greatly depending on the user and the vehicle—one person's sandy day from hell is another's fun day on the beach. And, if my assumption that the whole beach is open to travel by whatever access tags are placed holds, it makes more sense to promulgate the convention that the area may be transited than to mark fictitious paths just to keep the rendering and routing algorithms happy. On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote: I thought about this, but not all beaches are navigable. Some really are pretty treacherous, and I don’t think this is always easy to tell from aerial imagery. I have also been to perfectly navigable beaches where you are specifically not allowed to use vehicles because turtles build their nests there. I think it is safer to assume that a beach should not be used for navigation unless it’s explicitly tagged for it (and I think a path or track is the most straightforward way of tagging this). On Jul 11, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Andrew Guertin andrew.guer...@uvm.edu wrote: Contrary to the other replies, why not just teach the routers that beaches are something that can be walked (or ridden or driven) on? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Kevin Broderick k...@kevinbroderick.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Beach routing
On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Elliott Plack elliott.pl...@gmail.com wrote: OSM US: I've been using some routing engines to map fitness routes (e.g. Strava) that use OSM data. Along our US coasts, there are beaches. The beaches I'm familiar with are popular with walkers and joggers to go up and down the shore, since access is generally open to anyone along the water's edge. I'm considering adding a `highway=path` along the beach to facilitate this. I'd add the connections to the walking paths between parking lots and the beach as well. For uninterrupted strips of sandy beach, would a path be appropriate to indicate walkability? Adding a single arbitrary path where an area exists seems a bit of a hack. I recognize that part of the problem that you are trying to address is that routers aren't routing across areas. And that is surely a difficult problem to solve. Is the creation of arbitrary fake-paths a worse problem than not being able to route with specific routing software? Perhaps. A similar situation exists in (micro-)mapping golf courses. Some courses have cart paths with discontinuities. Often those discontinuities direct you to drive the cart (or walk, I'm not judging here) on the fairway, until the next section of physical cart path begins. In that situation, I only map the real path, not the virtual path. The another similarity is that users will select different paths for different reasons. Beach walkers may divert towards interesting items on the beach, or away from waves, washouts or debris. Golf players will be guided by course rules, weather rules and the location of their ball. The golf player is probably more likely to complete a predictable circuit. Beach walkers might follow an out and back of entirely arbitrary length. Using a router to select a, let's say, 5km stroll, out and back on a beach, seems of limited utility. I suggest, no path on the beach. Map a boardwalk where one exists, by all means. And adding those access ramps / paths is awesome. ;-) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Beach routing
It's just my opinion (fwiw) but it does seem to align with similar ones expressed by others in this thread: creating a specific path to cross an area seems superfluous. Logic as to whether you (and/or your vehicle) can cross a beach properly belongs in a router, especially as whether you are travelling by foot, bike, horse, ATV, family sedan, 4WD... and whether the surface is loose sand, hard-packed sand, pebbly rocks, or treacherous crags that are virtually impassible even by mountain goat are all possibilities. Combinations of access, vehicle/mode of travel and surface are likely to properly arrive at quite different answers as to whether such a navigable path is routable in any given case. Can or should a router be expected to know that a sandy beach (perhaps natural=beach is enough, perhaps surface=sand or other must be included) is navigable by foot across the polygon (without area=yes) and without an explicit way? Well, I'd certainly call that router sophisticated if it did so, but that seems to be where this sort of logic belongs, as opposed to a datum like a specific highway=path way across a beach. Yes, it is tempting to add such a path to make things work (for now) but as was already said, that truly is coding (data) for a router. Along with coding data for a renderer, I believe we want to discourage that. There will continue to be (excellent, in my opinion, but nevertheless necessary) discussions like this on whether our project puts logic into our database or into our code/tools that use data from our database. I believe most of the time, the correct answer to emerge (as it has many times -- see numerous Telenav examples) is a small amount of well-defined and well-structured data which adhere to a smart chunk of logic (in a renderer, in a router...). If/as we keep up that good work, both our map and our tools become better and better. SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Beach routing
On 07/09/2014 12:50 PM, Elliott Plack wrote: OSM US: I've been using some routing engines to map fitness routes (e.g. Strava) that use OSM data. Along our US coasts, there are beaches. The beaches I'm familiar with are popular with walkers and joggers to go up and down the shore, since access is generally open to anyone along the water's edge. I'm considering adding a `highway=path` along the beach to facilitate this. I'd add the connections to the walking paths between parking lots and the beach as well. For uninterrupted strips of sandy beach, would a path be appropriate to indicate walkability? How the map looks now in iD: http://i.imgur.com/2EQ06BR.jpg What I'd propose to do (note the connections): http://i.imgur.com/i8dj6lQ.jpg Area of the examples: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/38.45143/-75.04957 Today I learned about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety_Mile_Beach,_New_Zealand , which is officially a public highway. Curiously, it's mapped in OSM with a separate way marked highway=path, bicycle=yes, which doesn't really match up with the Top Gear video of Jeremy Clarkson passing a tour bus at high speed. I'm sure this means something for this topic, but I'm not sure what. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Beach routing
I say go ahead and add it, though `highway=track` (with appropriate access tag) might make more sense if vehicles drive along the beach. Here in NJ, people have also been mapping the paths that lead down to the beach from the boardwalks, but they generally aren’t connected. I’m a runner, so I would find it useful to know which stretches of beach are passable and what the surface is like. Thanks, Bryan On Jul 9, 2014, at 12:50 PM, Elliott Plack elliott.pl...@gmail.com wrote: OSM US: I've been using some routing engines to map fitness routes (e.g. Strava) that use OSM data. Along our US coasts, there are beaches. The beaches I'm familiar with are popular with walkers and joggers to go up and down the shore, since access is generally open to anyone along the water's edge. I'm considering adding a `highway=path` along the beach to facilitate this. I'd add the connections to the walking paths between parking lots and the beach as well. For uninterrupted strips of sandy beach, would a path be appropriate to indicate walkability? How the map looks now in iD: http://i.imgur.com/2EQ06BR.jpg What I'd propose to do (note the connections): http://i.imgur.com/i8dj6lQ.jpg Area of the examples: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/38.45143/-75.04957 Thanks, -- Elliott Plack http://about.me/elliottp ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Beach routing
A few years ago, I mapped beach access paths, too: http://ow.ly/yZT3G But I did not map along the beach as there was no clearly defined path or boardwalk, nor could I see a compelling case for doing so. I can see a reason if driving, horses, bikes compete for access, or there are areas that permit/restrict access to the beach. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 There are two types of people in the world. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete data. On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote: I say go ahead and add it, though `highway=track` (with appropriate access tag) might make more sense if vehicles drive along the beach. Here in NJ, people have also been mapping the paths that lead down to the beach from the boardwalks, but they generally aren’t connected. I’m a runner, so I would find it useful to know which stretches of beach are passable and what the surface is like. Thanks, Bryan On Jul 9, 2014, at 12:50 PM, Elliott Plack elliott.pl...@gmail.com wrote: OSM US: I've been using some routing engines to map fitness routes (e.g. Strava) that use OSM data. Along our US coasts, there are beaches. The beaches I'm familiar with are popular with walkers and joggers to go up and down the shore, since access is generally open to anyone along the water's edge. I'm considering adding a `highway=path` along the beach to facilitate this. I'd add the connections to the walking paths between parking lots and the beach as well. For uninterrupted strips of sandy beach, would a path be appropriate to indicate walkability? How the map looks now in iD: http://i.imgur.com/2EQ06BR.jpg What I'd propose to do (note the connections): http://i.imgur.com/i8dj6lQ.jpg Area of the examples: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/38.45143/-75.04957 Thanks, -- Elliott Plack http://about.me/elliottp ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Beach routing
I think this would be a great addition for routing. I would make sure that you add tags like bicycle=no, even though bicycles are probably not forbidden, bicycles and sand generally do not mix. ( http://www.njbikemap.com/ omits dirt roads in southern jersey for this reason) Another consideration is that outside of Atlantic City and Wildwood, most beaches require a beach tags/badges to use the beach. I'm not sure what the best way to tag these areas would be, but it would be important for routing people who are not familiar with the area. -- Jim On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 7:15 AM, Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.com wrote: A few years ago, I mapped beach access paths, too: http://ow.ly/yZT3G But I did not map along the beach as there was no clearly defined path or boardwalk, nor could I see a compelling case for doing so. I can see a reason if driving, horses, bikes compete for access, or there are areas that permit/restrict access to the beach. -- SEJ -- twitter: @geomantic -- skype: sejohnson8 There are two types of people in the world. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete data. On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote: I say go ahead and add it, though `highway=track` (with appropriate access tag) might make more sense if vehicles drive along the beach. Here in NJ, people have also been mapping the paths that lead down to the beach from the boardwalks, but they generally aren’t connected. I’m a runner, so I would find it useful to know which stretches of beach are passable and what the surface is like. Thanks, Bryan On Jul 9, 2014, at 12:50 PM, Elliott Plack elliott.pl...@gmail.com wrote: OSM US: I've been using some routing engines to map fitness routes (e.g. Strava) that use OSM data. Along our US coasts, there are beaches. The beaches I'm familiar with are popular with walkers and joggers to go up and down the shore, since access is generally open to anyone along the water's edge. I'm considering adding a `highway=path` along the beach to facilitate this. I'd add the connections to the walking paths between parking lots and the beach as well. For uninterrupted strips of sandy beach, would a path be appropriate to indicate walkability? How the map looks now in iD: http://i.imgur.com/2EQ06BR.jpg What I'd propose to do (note the connections): http://i.imgur.com/i8dj6lQ.jpg Area of the examples: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/38.45143/-75.04957 Thanks, -- Elliott Plack http://about.me/elliottp ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Beach routing
On 7/10/2014 2:58 PM, Jim McAndrew wrote: I would make sure that you add tags like bicycle=no, even though bicycles are probably not forbidden, bicycles and sand generally do not mix. The key word being generally http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-OIK5OAowFPQ/TaWSb5XILAI/CMk/kPaJ7BKDnts/s1600/Custom_Beach_Bike.jpg ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Beach routing
I think I'd probably only do bike=no if there was a No Bikes on Beach type sign. (same with horses) It is possible to ride along the surf where the sand is hard with a standard MTB. What about: highway=path (can't be track for the viz tags) access=public surface=sand trail_visibility=no ? On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote: On 7/10/2014 2:58 PM, Jim McAndrew wrote: I would make sure that you add tags like bicycle=no, even though bicycles are probably not forbidden, bicycles and sand generally do not mix. The key word being generally http://2.bp.blogspot.com/- OIK5OAowFPQ/TaWSb5XILAI/CMk/kPaJ7BKDnts/s1600/ Custom_Beach_Bike.jpg ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Elliott Plack http://about.me/elliottp ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
